Ali Dawah - JACOBS TREE VS ALIS WATCH DISCUSSION - SPEAKERS CORNER

00:00:00.000 contingent yeah okay but that's why we say it requires a necessary existence for it to make

00:00:06.620 sense because it could have the universe could have exist or not exist yeah it could have been

00:00:10.880 there or not there yeah uh sure okay well actually no actually no i don't i don't know that for certain

00:00:14.720 assalamualaikum guys before the video starts misc do check it out it's a brilliant app for

00:00:21.400 those who want to pray salah and share the rewards check them out now

00:00:25.700 it's called salam yeah okay so it stands for sharing affection love and mercy oh yeah

00:00:29.780 doesn't it mean peace yeah it doesn't mean peace but what it stands for each letter sharing affection

00:00:34.400 love and mercy salam s-a-l-a-m yeah you can see it yes got it

00:00:39.300 there can be no doubt yeah so now what we're doing is what we're trying to we believe everyone has

00:00:47.680 an innate disposition they're born with we're all programmed yeah so what we're trying to do is

00:00:53.660 we're trying to enlighten them yeah that's something all of us are born with that's why

00:00:57.080 in islam we believe everybody's born a muslim yeah somebody who submits their will to god yeah 0.99

00:01:01.540 so you think a baby is born a baby is born a muslim and what do we mean by that we mean

00:01:06.360 that um they are born on the fitrah yeah okay for the innate disposition yeah so that means

00:01:11.900 that there was a research study done in cambridge university which they said that if you know the

00:01:16.080 babies i think they have this innate thing to turn to a higher being yeah so this is why we say

00:01:21.200 muslim because muslim is the one that submits his will to god yeah however as a christian a christian 0.98

00:01:26.600 would have to come to that baby as it's growing up and nurture it and say to it jesus is god and he 0.85

00:01:31.560 died for your sins a buddhist might do the same and say okay buddha it was blah blah blah a hindu 0.98

00:01:37.200 might come and say okay we have one million gods etc but you see what we say is the following that

00:01:43.180 child is born with the fitrah so what that means is that it has that innate belief we believe all

00:01:49.900 the prophets came with that one message worship god alone yeah and this is what we are all going to 0.70

00:01:56.040 do worship god now this doesn't mean worshiping just by prayer yeah that means in your livelihood

00:02:00.500 remembering god appreciating him yeah so what i want to do is i want to hear from your side your

00:02:05.980 point of view about the fitrah or a bit about yourself a bit about yourself why you're an

00:02:11.500 atheist because you claim you're an atheist yeah yeah but but not but not in the traditional sense

00:02:16.540 not in the i wasn't really brought up and i was brought up in a sort of kind of semi-christian

00:02:22.560 no i'm not really not even christian it's difficult it's boring never mind but but like i'm not most

00:02:27.820 atheists i find to be quite irritating really they're sort of the type that kind of blue-haired 1.00

00:02:32.140 marxist freaks on campus just trying to get free speech censored i don't want to be associated with 0.90

00:02:36.180 them to be honest with you so yeah sure i think you can be an agnostic and an atheist to be honest

00:02:40.860 because one's a claim to knowledge and one is a claim to belief really everyone's agnostic or they

00:02:45.140 should say they are because agnostic just means you're not certain so i'm not certain i don't say

00:02:48.660 there's no god i'm just saying uh what's it i don't believe you that there is one for now

00:02:52.480 that makes sense do you think that could change i mean i'd be closed-minded if i said no

00:02:57.560 i'm all right for now thank you

00:03:04.520 okay so you see what what we want to do here because you see at salama organization what we're

00:03:17.560 trying to do is we're trying to change this vibe in the park yeah there's been a lot of controversy

00:03:22.140 a lot of heat a lot of ego and we don't want to look i'm not here to win an argument oh no you're

00:03:26.640 not no that's fine i'm not here to say okay one point to me one point to you yeah one upping each

00:03:30.380 other sort of yeah i'm a little ego you get what i'm trying to say i'm here to genuinely understand

00:03:34.620 where you're coming from and i want you to understand where i'm coming from absolutely that's

00:03:37.600 all it yeah so now that's why i come i want to talk to muslims see what you guys are about yeah

00:03:41.660 yes so jacob that's why now what kind of evidence would you require to logically and reasonably say

00:03:49.440 okay there isn't high intelligence or or there is something that what would you require okay so uh

00:03:54.860 last week um there was a group over there i think they were christians actually they were there and

00:03:59.040 they had a poster saying um free healing you know come come and be healed and they they claimed if i

00:04:04.600 came over with a broken leg or something and they uttered a prayer for me um they they said i've seen

00:04:10.100 that happen that's just mended right in front of us you know we can attest to that and they have

00:04:13.680 some woman who i think was a plant say oh yes it worked it worked for me as well right and i 1.00

00:04:18.000 obviously didn't have nothing you know anything wrong with me but if i had if i say had a broken

00:04:22.120 arm okay and uh and they said if we pray to jesus or whatever god did you know would be the same if

00:04:27.700 it's the muslims although i think you you guys don't have the similar healing things as they do

00:04:31.340 right if if that worked i'm not saying i'd be fully convinced but that would be a big step

00:04:36.660 you know if something like that happened if there was some sort of you know real miracle that i could

00:04:41.640 see and when i say miracle i don't mean kind of oh just look at the world around you isn't it

00:04:45.280 beautiful it must be finely tuned you know if there was some kind of astrophysicist kyle sagan

00:04:50.440 yeah i think you're saying um said extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence so i don't

00:04:55.760 really know what i could i can't think of some kind of oh yeah that point that would be the point

00:05:00.860 that would kind of push me to believing but it would have to be something all i know is it'd be

00:05:04.720 quite a you know a really good argument or a really good sort of moment now i want to use

00:05:11.220 some arguments and see if you will uh relate with it go ahead how do you know how do you know my

00:05:18.340 watch was designed okay uh well because i've seen many other watches before and i know from sort of

00:05:24.940 uh empiricism that you know watches need a human uh designer okay have you gone have you gone and

00:05:31.100 seen my watch get designed no i haven't okay so then can i say from the get-go you believe

00:05:38.020 you believe that my watch is designed even though you have not gone and seen it get designed yourself

00:05:43.940 your watch personally no yes yes you could say that okay but let's say all the other watches have

00:05:49.140 you gone to the factory yourself and seen it no of course not okay so then can i say that you have

00:05:54.260 belief yes that my watch is designed yes because you did not go to the factory see it so now if you

00:06:00.880 have belief but not faith okay same thing not no no it's not the same thing so so faith this is

00:06:08.140 perhaps a more atheistic definition but i think it is at least one definition is faith is the belief

00:06:12.160 without evidence so belief can actually have evidence you know you believe something okay because

00:06:16.800 it's supported whereas faith would be purely faith is is is in epistemological conversation it's no

00:06:22.280 not even blind faith but faith as a as a an area or i think it's a way of knowing in um fear of

00:06:27.620 knowledge or epistemology uh is is a bit like intuition it's a sort of knowledge without any kind

00:06:32.980 of um kind of evidence that's grounded in metaphysical reality or naturalism okay yeah no you're

00:06:39.940 right i accept that sure sure okay so then what i would need to say is this year you believe

00:06:46.100 that this watch has a purpose uh yes okay yes yes yes in order to tell the time yes okay it has

00:06:54.420 design therefore it requires a design yes okay so now you haven't gone and seen it get made yeah

00:07:01.040 you haven't seen it the assembly of things together but you have some kind of a prior knowledge

00:07:07.260 or a conviction that this has to have some kind of a design yes an a posteriori piece of knowledge not

00:07:14.180 an a priori knowledge okay so i i know this partly from really quantum probably from no so so a priori

00:07:21.560 you ask hijab about this uh because i've i've been i read his book and i know this like um is so a

00:07:28.100 priori or or analytic um knowledge which is defined by kant is you know logic that um well it's it's a

00:07:35.300 logical argument you know it's it's just it's sort of self-evident if i say um uh what's it uh the law

00:07:41.380 of identity you know all um a tree is a tree that is an a priori bit of knowledge because you don't

00:07:46.700 need to i know that without without empiricism without observation it's innate yes so the opposite

00:07:51.280 of that a posteriori is observational empirical okay okay okay yes i think it's a priori or yeah

00:07:58.900 whatever so that's what we're talking about yes yes this is where it relates back to the fitra

00:08:02.380 what i was telling you about yes yes what we're all programmed so now you know that when you look

00:08:06.620 around you be it the tree be it the coffee be it the watch be it the trainers yeah that you have

00:08:10.980 this innate disposition inside you that that has to have some kind of a design where did you say the

00:08:15.620 tree not the tree not the tree no no okay okay this is where we this is where we differ yeah yeah

00:08:20.700 why the watch and not the tree okay uh because the watch is a man-made um item and uh i don't think

00:08:28.280 the tree is well in so far as you can plant the seeds but but yeah yeah of course it's a natural

00:08:33.580 natural occurrence you know so even if there is a god you know a watch differs from a tree sort of

00:08:38.880 regardless of whether god is in the picture or not because you that requires uh sort of direct

00:08:43.460 human action you know it needs effort to have been pieced together you know a tree will just sort of

00:08:48.060 you know happen because of the biological because of non-human processes okay so we know when we say

00:08:52.240 mother nature yeah this is where for example we believe that ship is one of the worst sins in our

00:08:58.980 in our faith what's your excited means associating partners to god so for example we believe god

00:09:03.540 created the universe and what we do is we ascribe it to mother nature yeah um or this statue did it

00:09:08.740 or jesus did it or muhammad did it yeah so what we see is that this is a form of ship what we're doing

00:09:14.000 is something that we believe god almighty is created we ascribe it to mother nature random activities

00:09:20.340 random stuff that happened and popped into existence so what i'm trying to do with this

00:09:23.940 is that you understand and acknowledge even though you did not go to the factory and see

00:09:27.660 the watch get made innately you know that it has a purpose it has a design it requires a designer

00:09:33.460 but when we compare it to the tree i'm trying to understand why is it that when it comes to the

00:09:37.920 tree it's no no no that's a whole different story okay right so when you say innate do you mean

00:09:43.420 a priori i might okay no it's not okay so no my knowledge that that needs a designer

00:09:48.300 is a posteriori not a priori because because i've observed watches and i've observed um you

00:09:54.820 know people saying look obviously you know that you need because i've got a very limited understanding

00:09:59.440 of how clocks work because you need a cog and gears and whatnot you know i know that we need all that

00:10:04.340 it's not innate it's not something that i was just know yeah i know you do i believe you know why

00:10:08.540 i believe that why do you believe that because if you was walking on the desert uh william paley's argument

00:10:13.060 yeah and and you never came across a watch in your life yeah you don't know what to watch is ever

00:10:17.980 yeah you see on the road yeah uh on the sand yes yes you're not going to say okay i do not believe

00:10:26.500 this is a course i do not believe this is designed because i have never seen such thing to like such

00:10:31.940 thing like it before so if we have some kind of like a spaceship or some kind of weird yeah we're

00:10:38.400 not going to say oh hold on a second this is um it can be for example that i'm seeing things but

00:10:43.320 we're going to say okay let's assume you're not hallucinating yes okay let's assume i'm not

00:10:46.700 hallucinating i don't smoke weed yes and i don't think anyone should so you're going to come a priori

00:10:52.340 using that uh okay you're going to say hold on a second there must be some kind of course that's

00:10:56.900 why i believe it's a priori not okay a posteriori posteriori as in posterior meaning behind you know

00:11:03.000 it's a mouthful don't work yeah right so can i tell you why i think so that's an argument made

00:11:08.460 by william paley um who made it before darwin i know you guys you probably don't believe in

00:11:12.380 evolution but this was before darwin came up with his fear of natural selection

00:11:14.920 and william paley's teleological argument that the blind watch uh sorry not the blind watch

00:11:18.740 that's the book the watchmaker argument yeah that's that's uh now the blind watchmaker is a

00:11:22.400 book by richard dawkins but the watchmaker argument is what you're saying do you know why he's

00:11:25.600 wrong okay you're you're saying if you come across a watch right and say you're part of some

00:11:29.380 kind of um primitive tribe you know you've never had any contact with any sort of civil you know

00:11:32.860 civilized technologically advanced uh peoples okay you're saying if you encountered a watch

00:11:38.080 having never encountered a watch or any other kind of technology before that you would still innately

00:11:41.580 believe that that had a designer i disagree with you if you've had no experience of technology before

00:11:46.060 i don't think you can safely say that you would instantly know that has a designer i would say you

00:11:50.800 do you know why why either you have three options either created itself it came from nothing or he

00:11:55.840 was created well no no but you might think it was naturally occurring so let's so never mind

00:12:00.820 whether it's self-created or you know so what you're doing is you're calling nature yeah we're saying

00:12:06.040 what you call nature is god almighty but you're attributing god as nature because god has his

00:12:11.700 names and attributes what you're doing is you're saying okay that's a random event that's what i'm

00:12:16.300 trying to come to i'm trying to come to the beginning yeah yeah sure sure so i'm just saying

00:12:20.220 sorry so finish finish so when we come to the universe it's the same thing yeah we have two

00:12:25.080 arguments yeah we have a calamity cosmological argument yes and we have the new argument of

00:12:28.200 contingency yeah yeah i'll come to those if you if you like but just i'm saying with the watch i'm

00:12:33.080 saying you can't know that maybe there is some tree on your island you haven't explored the island

00:12:37.660 that produces these bizarre looking fruits that looks you know it's got a strap and it's got a face

00:12:42.320 and it's got numbers and hands that move maybe that fell from a tree and you just don't know

00:12:46.000 that's not probably still requires that there was some kind of a cause and design okay but then

00:12:50.420 you're going cosmological then then you're abandoning the teleological argument that there's

00:12:53.580 this argument from design i am i am but what our atheist friends do is they they divorce them

00:12:58.120 they'll say okay this is man-made the tree isn't so you can't compare the two okay and i'm saying

00:13:02.680 why can't i because has it has it has a purpose is designed requires a design yeah yeah and if we go

00:13:09.460 back to the example of a tree or the universe which i'm which was my next argument is for example

00:13:14.380 the universe itself you have couple options it either came from nothing either created itself

00:13:19.500 it was created it was infinite yeah or it came by chance yeah yeah that's all good so now but that's

00:13:25.460 not the same as with the watch with the watch okay because with the universe there's a possibility

00:13:30.100 that it actually did begin to exist maybe that because of god or i'll go to that in a minute i just

00:13:35.260 want to address the watch okay i'm not dodging your question but but the watch you know okay it began to

00:13:40.560 exist in the sense that it was it began when it was pieced together but the matter that comprises

00:13:45.240 it still existed before okay so so really you know the argument you can just trace it further about

00:13:49.880 okay but what created that bit of metal and take it back to the beginning of the universe and then

00:13:53.640 you're just talking about the universe but the watch itself you cannot actually say for certainty

00:13:57.840 that it's designed if you've never come across um such a sort of design technological

00:14:01.720 we can say it's designed but the materials to make it did not appear from nothing because it

00:14:06.960 was there from within the nature yeah it was it was there from within nature i just don't think you

00:14:10.700 can say i think if you were you know like i said if you've never seen a watch before and you've never

00:14:16.100 seen you didn't even know what a kind of clock or any device was i don't think you would think

00:14:20.120 that's designed i think you would think um really yeah well i can't say for certain or maybe maybe

00:14:26.120 you would think maybe if you were sort of in some kind of i know in the sentinel islands you believe

00:14:30.440 that the god of the sentinel ease just sort of put it there in which case in which case it would

00:14:34.120 be a design yeah of course it requires a course let's do this here okay let's do you want to go

00:14:37.740 there's a divorce that happened let's bring them back together sure sure this is made of atoms yes

00:14:42.840 the tree is made of atoms yes a lot of things in our universe universe are made of atoms everything

00:14:46.460 really now let's join them as one family okay okay they come from the same substance yeah

00:14:50.020 therefore where did this substance come from okay so then maybe we're joining together let's go

00:14:55.400 cosmology then okay all right um so so do you want to do you want to address kalam or or the

00:15:02.060 contingency one first contingency is more powerful okay uh but let's let's go with i'll say

00:15:08.140 can i do you mind if i rip up my notes page because i did i came here looking to um get an interview

00:15:15.120 with hijab not that i jumped in hajj oh is he oh okay i won't be seeing him for a while then

00:15:19.380 because i wanted to ask him a few questions not only about these arguments but also because i

00:15:23.540 read his book which i thought was a very intelligent piece of essay yes it was interesting some errors

00:15:28.300 i have to say but uh i will i shook his hand once but then he got involved in some fight that was

00:15:33.800 happening elsewhere so uh cross for david hume in his uh dialogues concerning uh natural religion

00:15:38.280 he says he has this to say on a contingency i don't think this is a quote this is my sort of

00:15:42.580 analysis but hume writes it is evidence that we can never perceive the non-existence of a necessary

00:15:47.680 deity as equally impossible as twice two or two times two not to be four at least not with our

00:15:53.420 current faculties is that do you want me to stop bit by bit and go to okay so he says it will still

00:15:58.480 be possible for us at any time to conceive the non-existence of what we formerly conceived to

00:16:04.080 exist i.e anyone is able to conceive god's non-existence nor can the mind ever lie under the necessity of

00:16:10.780 supposing that any object remain always in being in the same way as we lie under a necessity of always

00:16:15.780 conceiving two times two to equal four thus necessary existence has no real meaning so he

00:16:21.220 questions whether it's even appropriate to distinguish between necessary and contingent

00:16:25.300 contingent existences and then the character who is using cleanthes goes on to say so that's point

00:16:29.600 number one point two he then says that okay let's assume let's grant the religion the theist that

00:16:35.220 there is some necessary being he says that for all we know the material world or universe as a whole

00:16:39.700 itself might be the necessarily existent being in spite of the way in which parts of it might depend on

00:16:44.600 other parts since it must be unknown inconceivable qualities that make anything a necessary existent

00:16:49.380 for all we know these qualities may attach to the ordinary physical universe rather than to any

00:16:53.740 immaterial thing or person or deity behind it point two is maybe the easier one for you to answer but

00:16:58.460 hijab and we also have dr shraib they refuse this argument okay right because what you're doing is

00:17:04.860 you're giving the necessary cause this uh necessary uh being yeah i'm sorry necessary existence you're

00:17:11.600 giving those attributes to the universe so what you're doing is you're saying and this is where 0.89

00:17:15.220 shit comes in yeah because we believe i don't truly believe there's atheists exist all they're doing is 0.94

00:17:19.980 that you don't believe atheists exist i don't believe there's such thing as atheism 0.99

00:17:23.260 okay what they do is this let me tell you why i might be wrong yeah sure um is that

00:17:28.640 what we do is we get mother nature so for example we say oh this is this is mother nature

00:17:34.900 what you're doing is you're ascribing a a attribute of god yeah the creator to mother nature it's mother

00:17:42.140 nature the tree well look it's mother nature so what you're doing is you're just

00:17:45.840 worshipping something besides god i'm not worshipping it really i don't have any i think

00:17:51.060 i know what you mean but indirectly what's happening is for example what he said there

00:17:54.880 is that this necessary existence may be the universe so what you've done now is you've given

00:18:00.540 the properties of a necessary being to something that's contingent ah okay right right let me look

00:18:04.900 and that's not a possibility yeah because at the end of the universe can the universe be any other way

00:18:09.640 any other way uh what do you mean what do you mean by that so for example the continuous argument

00:18:13.820 is that for example the universe could have been any other way the sun could the sun could have

00:18:20.100 been there or not be there uh the tree could have been there or not be there your shirt could have

00:18:23.560 been there or not it's not necessary it's contingent yes okay yes it's contingent so it could have

00:18:27.700 been any other way yeah yeah the necessary existence cannot be any other way everything yeah i get that

00:18:33.840 even if we go with the argument of the universe has always been there and it's been created and

00:18:37.300 created it all goes back to it still relies on something that relies on something else so it's

00:18:42.040 always it's always contingent yeah okay but that's why we say it requires a necessary existence

00:18:48.500 for it to make sense because it could have the universe could have exist or not exist yeah

00:18:53.040 it could have been there or not there yeah uh sure okay well actually no actually no i don't i don't

00:18:57.560 know that for certain i would say maybe maybe the universe was necessary so what we say jacob is

00:19:01.380 that excuse me it's necessary existence i mean uh contingent yeah possible existence it could have been

00:19:07.480 the same other way yeah the universe could have existed or not could have existed it could have not

00:19:10.980 been there but the fact that it is an existence requires a necessary uh uh necessary uh being for

00:19:18.540 existence yes yes it requires that this is why we don't we're trying to move away from the kalam 1.00

00:19:22.720 cosmological argument because yeah leave kalam leave kalam yes even though i believe it's a very

00:19:26.100 strong argument but i've been using it so much i just want to use it and this continues i'm kind

00:19:31.000 of grasping this too yeah so sure that's fine let me show me too i haven't fully got it but do you

00:19:35.320 understand where you're coming from i think i do so several points to just there so um oh what was

00:19:40.380 your first point about uh you don't believe in in atheists really oh yeah no that was it we we

00:19:44.680 we're taking attributes of god and instead of describing it to mother nature okay right

00:19:48.000 so my disagreement with that is that it's the other way around for me what you're doing is

00:19:53.000 ascribing elements of mother nature to something and calling it god okay so it's actually you who's

00:19:57.860 doing that you know and i don't believe that's a sin or anything but i think that's what you're

00:20:01.160 doing i think that um i'm going to be so bold as to think that my position is the more uh innate

00:20:06.580 one which i'm sure you disagree with um what was and then you said after that uh just just rehash

00:20:11.980 your argument a bit by bit just touch upon that so you believe that because you're basically saying

00:20:15.780 we're saying god made man you're saying you guys are claiming you're saying man made god

00:20:19.940 uh yes that's what i'm saying yeah yeah yeah yes yes yes okay the evidence to that what i'm trying

00:20:26.660 to say is that is is that it goes back to the argument of that can the universe come from nothing

00:20:34.100 it cannot now that is sounding a bit calamish i'm trying to go there more forward maybe it can

00:20:40.700 make you understand better okay all right i mean the contingency argument can fly over people's

00:20:45.300 head yeah so just to bring it back to the basics okay all right go the universe do you believe the

00:20:49.280 universe had a beginning um i think it could have done but i'm not i'm not sure i i wouldn't be

00:20:54.880 justified in saying yes at the beginning i believe in the big bang but that we don't know the big bang

00:20:58.480 was the beginning let's go through the logical arguments yes let's so what we're seeing is that

00:21:02.200 if you're walking down the road and you see an accident happening yeah yeah you will say okay

00:21:07.120 there's a cause to this accident yes if you go and go to the ice cream somebody comes and gives you

00:21:13.420 ice cream yeah you want ice cream by the way no i'm all right you can say okay i think they got me

00:21:19.160 an ice cream you probably got it from the ice cream shop yes logically you're deducing it

00:21:23.960 you made that mistake that's all right i'll write that logically to come to the best possible

00:21:29.660 understanding logically yes yeah why is it that when it comes to god when we say okay hold on a second

00:21:34.660 the universe yeah um and i'm not even using fine tuning yeah that's fine for example when it

00:21:42.380 comes to the universe we say oh hold on a second i'll stop there now logic put that to a side now

00:21:47.420 now we're going into it may have created itself i'm just wondering why that happened that's all

00:21:52.740 well i did make a logical argument for the for the self-creative no but okay no you don't to be

00:21:57.860 honest okay no no it's all right you can say i'm i'm not offended by anything you say what you want

00:22:02.220 how can something for it to create itself it has to exist and not exist at the same time yeah no

00:22:07.680 no no that's fine that's fine but just when i when i say i made a logical argument that is a fact

00:22:13.920 now you could say oh no your logical argument wasn't valid or it wasn't sound but my argument

00:22:17.580 regarding the infinite causality within the finite time that was a logical argument by definition

00:22:22.000 so whatever you say you didn't make that even if you say infinite uh causations in a finite time

00:22:27.840 yeah yeah yeah which i believe if i'm not mistaken is kind of a contradiction because you're in a

00:22:31.740 finite space and you have an infinite uh uh uh events um infinite chain are there not an infinite

00:22:38.940 number of decimals between zero and one what do you mean by that there are there are an infinite

00:22:44.900 number of decimals number mathematically but operationally in the real world it doesn't exist

00:22:48.400 like i said to you before we can say okay as far as we know infinitely yeah no as far as you know but

00:22:53.380 this is what i'm trying to say yeah you know something as far as you know there's a possibility

00:22:56.600 yeah yeah yeah we're talking about certainty we're talking about something that has to require a

00:23:01.840 cause why is it that we throw that away and we go with the i believe it's absurd possibilities like

00:23:08.420 it creates in itself it's a logical impossibility it coming from nothing a logical impossibility

00:23:12.880 it being there forever again infinite doesn't has no beginning and no end so we cannot add a

00:23:18.100 subtract from infinite yeah yeah yeah the universe had a beginning it's debunks the whole claim of

00:23:22.620 infinite you can you can call it infinite towards the future but not towards the past so alec

00:23:28.180 valenkin seems to think so yes but so far it's just no you get what i'm trying to say i do understand

00:23:32.920 what you're saying i just want it to be like just something that you can ponder upon i'd make a much

00:23:37.880 better argument without these people um you know there will be no laws to say that everything needs

00:23:42.680 a cause because there's no there's not even any any temporality so there's no um kind of uh cause and

00:23:48.260 effect you know cause must proceed effect uh there's no sort of requirement do you still want to say

00:23:52.540 with nothing anything can happen okay no you're saying just because we have laws within our

00:23:57.720 universe yeah yeah doesn't mean there's going to be laws in the nothingness yeah pretty much

00:24:02.800 what i'm trying to say is that firstly to make that leap yeah you need to know what nothingness is

00:24:07.620 yeah so now what we're saying is that nothingness is the absence of something

00:24:12.100 it's the absence of anything it's the absence of anything yes so that's our whole premise

00:24:17.240 because if there was nothing from nothing nothing comes there can't be okay there's that ah but that's

00:24:22.400 what i'm disagreeing with no no we can't say there's some random laws and those laws that are there

00:24:26.260 that they don't apply here yes maybe but the issue is if there was nothing at this point yes

00:24:31.120 if there was a nothingness there is no law there's nothing exactly there's no laws and no god

00:24:37.180 if there's nothing okay okay no no no okay good so what i'm trying to say is this my point is that

00:24:42.000 yeah is that if there is a point of nothingness yeah we say it cannot come into existence if it's a

00:24:50.120 nothingness it's just nothingness yes and i'm not going to say nothing's not going to say

00:24:54.840 yo i'm a man's bored bun this but let me just do it i'll come into existence yeah it's not going to do

00:25:01.060 nothingness is a road man exactly nothing's going to say yeah yeah man needs to go

00:25:04.060 so i'm saying that there was nothing the point that we're saying is the fact that our universe exists

00:25:12.080 requires a cause because if it was nothing we won't be here we won't be arguing there's nothing to argue

00:25:17.100 but it is a nothing from nothingness it's protein in nothingness yeah therefore that proves to us

00:25:21.980 the fact that the universe exists if it does exist it did not come from nothingness yeah there was a

00:25:29.420 cause behind it yeah we believe god can say and it is so god can say i want the universe to begin

00:25:37.420 he has the attributes and that those powers to do it so god has the power to make something come from

00:25:41.780 nothing yeah thank you god right okay that way that's it if that's okay this is where we go to the

00:25:46.000 contingency argument yeah yeah the contingency argument said that everything within our universe

00:25:49.980 is contingent it could have been any other way it requires a necessary existence otherwise nothing

00:25:57.440 would make sense what you said these laws and everything that's in place nothing would make

00:26:01.320 sense the universe either came look i asked you can it come from nothing impossibility zero

00:26:06.020 i still want to come back to that

00:26:08.540 zero can zero ever equal one

00:26:11.560 can zero ever equal one

00:26:14.540 no never can

00:26:17.100 all the admirers yeah

00:26:22.540 so can it create itself can the universe create itself it's an impossibility because it has to exist and

00:26:29.100 not exist at the same time can it be infinite no it can't because it had a beginning point

00:26:33.740 infinite doesn't have a beginning doesn't have an end the only logical rational possibility is it

00:26:38.120 had a beginning it had a course that's what i'm logically working am i wrong

00:26:42.760 yes

00:26:45.080 how how how

00:26:48.080 this is all based upon our world picture and what we know at the moment you're absolutely right

00:26:56.520 with respect you know the thing is is that at the moment we can't have something for nothing as

00:27:01.640 far as we know but in a hundred years time in three hundred years time in a thousand years time

00:27:07.560 somebody might we our our knowledge is expanding our understanding is expanding okay and we may

00:27:14.040 suddenly understand things that seem absolutely impossible at the moment you only have to look at

00:27:21.160 Newton and let's say Einstein the thing is is that so you know Einstein put

00:27:26.280 Newton put forward a series of ideas

00:27:28.920 you're talking about a paradigm shift what Thomas Kooten called a paradigm shift which is a shift in our understanding sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry

00:27:33.160 that's like oh i wish yeah yeah no no i i mean you're saying there's

00:27:38.280 uh bill

00:27:40.280 yeah i'm adding

00:27:42.280 bill what was you saying is this but do you not think you're doing like a leap of faith what you're

00:27:45.400 saying is that we may and it might be and we can and sure and maybe don't you think

00:27:50.280 that it's because what you're doing is that you want to believe that there's not a god and

00:27:53.880 you're saying that i might not know now but in the future i might don't you think that's a bit unfair

00:27:57.880 because then why don't you go with the certainty that there is an intelligent being and if in the

00:28:02.760 future you somehow find through these uh this paradigm shift then you can why do we not go with

00:28:08.680 the asset which is the origin that there has to be a creator and then if scientists come and say guys

00:28:13.880 look man something can come from nothing here's boom at least i would say okay then i hear you out

00:28:19.000 but for the time being why are we rejecting a notion which logically rationally makes sense to us

00:28:23.800 and we apply this logic on our daily basis but it comes to god we reject

00:28:27.000 well the creator is only one option that makes sense okay that's the only option i don't think

00:28:31.880 it is sorry what's the other what he even listed some of the options that make sense so so so the

00:28:38.520 ex nihilo model okay the self-creative uh model uh and it's an eternal sorry because just because

00:28:44.520 there are options because someone might come and say no i believe the universe started by a purple

00:28:48.120 elephant in mars yeah yeah to me that is the same sort of you know line of reasoning as as god did it

00:28:55.160 okay so to me you would need just as much proof to prove god as to do so a purple elephant

00:29:05.240 uh yes yes absolutely tell me tell me kind of just with reference to perhaps one of those

00:29:11.080 options tell me sort of like in maybe three sentences something that could be really thought

00:29:16.520 provoking that i need to go and think about to resolve a problem of either the ex nihilo or the

00:29:20.440 self-creating or the eternal one is for example show a um show us a theory that something can create

00:29:28.280 its own self that something can come from nothing or it's infinitely been there these three will smash

00:29:35.480 this argument if you can do this before the big bang before the big bang yes well we can't know there's

00:29:43.000 no way of knowing what happens before the big bang and also whatever happened before the big bang

00:29:47.080 actually has zero influence on what happened after okay because there was a breakdown on the quantum

00:29:51.800 level which would mean there was no nothing that happened before the big bang maybe it was god okay

00:29:56.200 would have any influence on post big bang temporality

00:29:59.560 explanation is that there has to be an intelligent being that's the best explanation to the laws the

00:30:04.600 way we think our conscious consciousness argument the heart problem of consciousness all right we

00:30:08.200 are i'll come to that another day yeah yeah yes absolutely yeah yeah yeah that was good yeah no

00:30:14.280 thank you i appreciate it i'll come to i've got a lot of other stuff to talk about where it's quranic

00:30:19.800 stuff and yeah and if you want if you have any questions your job might come as well okay

00:30:37.320 i'd love to make a job actually yeah yeah yeah thank you three weeks time

00:30:40.600 it's okay thank you jake it thank you

Ali Dawah - August 01, 2019

JACOBS TREE VS ALIS WATCH DISCUSSION - SPEAKERS CORNER

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