JACOBS TREE VS ALIS WATCH DISCUSSION - SPEAKERS CORNER
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Summary
In this episode of the podcast, we are joined by the founder of Salama, a Muslim organisation dedicated to enlightening and enlightening the muslims about their faith and their beliefs. In this episode, we discuss: What is Salama? Why is it important to be an atheist? What does it mean to be a believer in God? Why does it matter whether or not there is a god?
Transcript
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contingent yeah okay but that's why we say it requires a necessary existence for it to make
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sense because it could have the universe could have exist or not exist yeah it could have been
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there or not there yeah uh sure okay well actually no actually no i don't i don't know that for certain
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assalamualaikum guys before the video starts misc do check it out it's a brilliant app for
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those who want to pray salah and share the rewards check them out now
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it's called salam yeah okay so it stands for sharing affection love and mercy oh yeah
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doesn't it mean peace yeah it doesn't mean peace but what it stands for each letter sharing affection
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love and mercy salam s-a-l-a-m yeah you can see it yes got it
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there can be no doubt yeah so now what we're doing is what we're trying to we believe everyone has
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an innate disposition they're born with we're all programmed yeah so what we're trying to do is
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we're trying to enlighten them yeah that's something all of us are born with that's why
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in islam we believe everybody's born a muslim yeah somebody who submits their will to god yeah
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so you think a baby is born a baby is born a muslim and what do we mean by that we mean
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that um they are born on the fitrah yeah okay for the innate disposition yeah so that means
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that there was a research study done in cambridge university which they said that if you know the
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babies i think they have this innate thing to turn to a higher being yeah so this is why we say
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muslim because muslim is the one that submits his will to god yeah however as a christian a christian
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would have to come to that baby as it's growing up and nurture it and say to it jesus is god and he
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died for your sins a buddhist might do the same and say okay buddha it was blah blah blah a hindu
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might come and say okay we have one million gods etc but you see what we say is the following that
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child is born with the fitrah so what that means is that it has that innate belief we believe all
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the prophets came with that one message worship god alone yeah and this is what we are all going to
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do worship god now this doesn't mean worshiping just by prayer yeah that means in your livelihood
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remembering god appreciating him yeah so what i want to do is i want to hear from your side your
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point of view about the fitrah or a bit about yourself a bit about yourself why you're an
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atheist because you claim you're an atheist yeah yeah but but not but not in the traditional sense
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not in the i wasn't really brought up and i was brought up in a sort of kind of semi-christian
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no i'm not really not even christian it's difficult it's boring never mind but but like i'm not most
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atheists i find to be quite irritating really they're sort of the type that kind of blue-haired
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marxist freaks on campus just trying to get free speech censored i don't want to be associated with
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them to be honest with you so yeah sure i think you can be an agnostic and an atheist to be honest
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because one's a claim to knowledge and one is a claim to belief really everyone's agnostic or they
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should say they are because agnostic just means you're not certain so i'm not certain i don't say
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there's no god i'm just saying uh what's it i don't believe you that there is one for now
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that makes sense do you think that could change i mean i'd be closed-minded if i said no
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okay so you see what what we want to do here because you see at salama organization what we're
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trying to do is we're trying to change this vibe in the park yeah there's been a lot of controversy
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a lot of heat a lot of ego and we don't want to look i'm not here to win an argument oh no you're
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not no that's fine i'm not here to say okay one point to me one point to you yeah one upping each
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other sort of yeah i'm a little ego you get what i'm trying to say i'm here to genuinely understand
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where you're coming from and i want you to understand where i'm coming from absolutely that's
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all it yeah so now that's why i come i want to talk to muslims see what you guys are about yeah
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yes so jacob that's why now what kind of evidence would you require to logically and reasonably say
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okay there isn't high intelligence or or there is something that what would you require okay so uh
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last week um there was a group over there i think they were christians actually they were there and
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they had a poster saying um free healing you know come come and be healed and they they claimed if i
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came over with a broken leg or something and they uttered a prayer for me um they they said i've seen
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that happen that's just mended right in front of us you know we can attest to that and they have
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some woman who i think was a plant say oh yes it worked it worked for me as well right and i
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obviously didn't have nothing you know anything wrong with me but if i had if i say had a broken
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arm okay and uh and they said if we pray to jesus or whatever god did you know would be the same if
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it's the muslims although i think you you guys don't have the similar healing things as they do
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right if if that worked i'm not saying i'd be fully convinced but that would be a big step
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you know if something like that happened if there was some sort of you know real miracle that i could
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see and when i say miracle i don't mean kind of oh just look at the world around you isn't it
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beautiful it must be finely tuned you know if there was some kind of astrophysicist kyle sagan
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yeah i think you're saying um said extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence so i don't
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really know what i could i can't think of some kind of oh yeah that point that would be the point
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that would kind of push me to believing but it would have to be something all i know is it'd be
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quite a you know a really good argument or a really good sort of moment now i want to use
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some arguments and see if you will uh relate with it go ahead how do you know how do you know my
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watch was designed okay uh well because i've seen many other watches before and i know from sort of
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uh empiricism that you know watches need a human uh designer okay have you gone have you gone and
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seen my watch get designed no i haven't okay so then can i say from the get-go you believe
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you believe that my watch is designed even though you have not gone and seen it get designed yourself
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your watch personally no yes yes you could say that okay but let's say all the other watches have
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you gone to the factory yourself and seen it no of course not okay so then can i say that you have
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belief yes that my watch is designed yes because you did not go to the factory see it so now if you
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have belief but not faith okay same thing not no no it's not the same thing so so faith this is
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perhaps a more atheistic definition but i think it is at least one definition is faith is the belief
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without evidence so belief can actually have evidence you know you believe something okay because
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it's supported whereas faith would be purely faith is is is in epistemological conversation it's no
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not even blind faith but faith as a as a an area or i think it's a way of knowing in um fear of
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knowledge or epistemology uh is is a bit like intuition it's a sort of knowledge without any kind
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of um kind of evidence that's grounded in metaphysical reality or naturalism okay yeah no you're
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right i accept that sure sure okay so then what i would need to say is this year you believe
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that this watch has a purpose uh yes okay yes yes yes in order to tell the time yes okay it has
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design therefore it requires a design yes okay so now you haven't gone and seen it get made yeah
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you haven't seen it the assembly of things together but you have some kind of a prior knowledge
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or a conviction that this has to have some kind of a design yes an a posteriori piece of knowledge not
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an a priori knowledge okay so i i know this partly from really quantum probably from no so so a priori
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you ask hijab about this uh because i've i've been i read his book and i know this like um is so a
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priori or or analytic um knowledge which is defined by kant is you know logic that um well it's it's a
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logical argument you know it's it's just it's sort of self-evident if i say um uh what's it uh the law
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of identity you know all um a tree is a tree that is an a priori bit of knowledge because you don't
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need to i know that without without empiricism without observation it's innate yes so the opposite
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of that a posteriori is observational empirical okay okay okay yes i think it's a priori or yeah
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whatever so that's what we're talking about yes yes this is where it relates back to the fitra
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what i was telling you about yes yes what we're all programmed so now you know that when you look
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around you be it the tree be it the coffee be it the watch be it the trainers yeah that you have
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this innate disposition inside you that that has to have some kind of a design where did you say the
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tree not the tree not the tree no no okay okay this is where we this is where we differ yeah yeah
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why the watch and not the tree okay uh because the watch is a man-made um item and uh i don't think
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the tree is well in so far as you can plant the seeds but but yeah yeah of course it's a natural
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natural occurrence you know so even if there is a god you know a watch differs from a tree sort of
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regardless of whether god is in the picture or not because you that requires uh sort of direct
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human action you know it needs effort to have been pieced together you know a tree will just sort of
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you know happen because of the biological because of non-human processes okay so we know when we say
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mother nature yeah this is where for example we believe that ship is one of the worst sins in our
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in our faith what's your excited means associating partners to god so for example we believe god
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created the universe and what we do is we ascribe it to mother nature yeah um or this statue did it
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or jesus did it or muhammad did it yeah so what we see is that this is a form of ship what we're doing
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is something that we believe god almighty is created we ascribe it to mother nature random activities
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random stuff that happened and popped into existence so what i'm trying to do with this
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is that you understand and acknowledge even though you did not go to the factory and see
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the watch get made innately you know that it has a purpose it has a design it requires a designer
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but when we compare it to the tree i'm trying to understand why is it that when it comes to the
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tree it's no no no that's a whole different story okay right so when you say innate do you mean
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a priori i might okay no it's not okay so no my knowledge that that needs a designer
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is a posteriori not a priori because because i've observed watches and i've observed um you
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know people saying look obviously you know that you need because i've got a very limited understanding
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of how clocks work because you need a cog and gears and whatnot you know i know that we need all that
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it's not innate it's not something that i was just know yeah i know you do i believe you know why
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i believe that why do you believe that because if you was walking on the desert uh william paley's argument
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yeah and and you never came across a watch in your life yeah you don't know what to watch is ever
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yeah you see on the road yeah uh on the sand yes yes you're not going to say okay i do not believe
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this is a course i do not believe this is designed because i have never seen such thing to like such
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thing like it before so if we have some kind of like a spaceship or some kind of weird yeah we're
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not going to say oh hold on a second this is um it can be for example that i'm seeing things but
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we're going to say okay let's assume you're not hallucinating yes okay let's assume i'm not
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hallucinating i don't smoke weed yes and i don't think anyone should so you're going to come a priori
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using that uh okay you're going to say hold on a second there must be some kind of course that's
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why i believe it's a priori not okay a posteriori posteriori as in posterior meaning behind you know
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it's a mouthful don't work yeah right so can i tell you why i think so that's an argument made
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by william paley um who made it before darwin i know you guys you probably don't believe in
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evolution but this was before darwin came up with his fear of natural selection
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and william paley's teleological argument that the blind watch uh sorry not the blind watch
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that's the book the watchmaker argument yeah that's that's uh now the blind watchmaker is a
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book by richard dawkins but the watchmaker argument is what you're saying do you know why he's
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wrong okay you're you're saying if you come across a watch right and say you're part of some
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kind of um primitive tribe you know you've never had any contact with any sort of civil you know
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civilized technologically advanced uh peoples okay you're saying if you encountered a watch
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having never encountered a watch or any other kind of technology before that you would still innately
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believe that that had a designer i disagree with you if you've had no experience of technology before
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i don't think you can safely say that you would instantly know that has a designer i would say you
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do you know why why either you have three options either created itself it came from nothing or he
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was created well no no but you might think it was naturally occurring so let's so never mind
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whether it's self-created or you know so what you're doing is you're calling nature yeah we're saying
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what you call nature is god almighty but you're attributing god as nature because god has his
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names and attributes what you're doing is you're saying okay that's a random event that's what i'm
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trying to come to i'm trying to come to the beginning yeah yeah sure sure so i'm just saying
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sorry so finish finish so when we come to the universe it's the same thing yeah we have two
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arguments yeah we have a calamity cosmological argument yes and we have the new argument of
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contingency yeah yeah i'll come to those if you if you like but just i'm saying with the watch i'm
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saying you can't know that maybe there is some tree on your island you haven't explored the island
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that produces these bizarre looking fruits that looks you know it's got a strap and it's got a face
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and it's got numbers and hands that move maybe that fell from a tree and you just don't know
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that's not probably still requires that there was some kind of a cause and design okay but then
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you're going cosmological then then you're abandoning the teleological argument that there's
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this argument from design i am i am but what our atheist friends do is they they divorce them
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they'll say okay this is man-made the tree isn't so you can't compare the two okay and i'm saying
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why can't i because has it has it has a purpose is designed requires a design yeah yeah and if we go
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back to the example of a tree or the universe which i'm which was my next argument is for example
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the universe itself you have couple options it either came from nothing either created itself
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it was created it was infinite yeah or it came by chance yeah yeah that's all good so now but that's
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not the same as with the watch with the watch okay because with the universe there's a possibility
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that it actually did begin to exist maybe that because of god or i'll go to that in a minute i just
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want to address the watch okay i'm not dodging your question but but the watch you know okay it began to
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exist in the sense that it was it began when it was pieced together but the matter that comprises
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it still existed before okay so so really you know the argument you can just trace it further about
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okay but what created that bit of metal and take it back to the beginning of the universe and then
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you're just talking about the universe but the watch itself you cannot actually say for certainty
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that it's designed if you've never come across um such a sort of design technological
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we can say it's designed but the materials to make it did not appear from nothing because it
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was there from within the nature yeah it was it was there from within nature i just don't think you
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can say i think if you were you know like i said if you've never seen a watch before and you've never
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seen you didn't even know what a kind of clock or any device was i don't think you would think
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that's designed i think you would think um really yeah well i can't say for certain or maybe maybe
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you would think maybe if you were sort of in some kind of i know in the sentinel islands you believe
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that the god of the sentinel ease just sort of put it there in which case in which case it would
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be a design yeah of course it requires a course let's do this here okay let's do you want to go
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there's a divorce that happened let's bring them back together sure sure this is made of atoms yes
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the tree is made of atoms yes a lot of things in our universe universe are made of atoms everything
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really now let's join them as one family okay okay they come from the same substance yeah
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therefore where did this substance come from okay so then maybe we're joining together let's go
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cosmology then okay all right um so so do you want to do you want to address kalam or or the
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contingency one first contingency is more powerful okay uh but let's let's go with i'll say
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can i do you mind if i rip up my notes page because i did i came here looking to um get an interview
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with hijab not that i jumped in hajj oh is he oh okay i won't be seeing him for a while then
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because i wanted to ask him a few questions not only about these arguments but also because i
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read his book which i thought was a very intelligent piece of essay yes it was interesting some errors
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i have to say but uh i will i shook his hand once but then he got involved in some fight that was
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happening elsewhere so uh cross for david hume in his uh dialogues concerning uh natural religion
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he says he has this to say on a contingency i don't think this is a quote this is my sort of
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analysis but hume writes it is evidence that we can never perceive the non-existence of a necessary
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deity as equally impossible as twice two or two times two not to be four at least not with our
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current faculties is that do you want me to stop bit by bit and go to okay so he says it will still
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be possible for us at any time to conceive the non-existence of what we formerly conceived to
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exist i.e anyone is able to conceive god's non-existence nor can the mind ever lie under the necessity of
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supposing that any object remain always in being in the same way as we lie under a necessity of always
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conceiving two times two to equal four thus necessary existence has no real meaning so he
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questions whether it's even appropriate to distinguish between necessary and contingent
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contingent existences and then the character who is using cleanthes goes on to say so that's point
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number one point two he then says that okay let's assume let's grant the religion the theist that
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there is some necessary being he says that for all we know the material world or universe as a whole
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itself might be the necessarily existent being in spite of the way in which parts of it might depend on
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other parts since it must be unknown inconceivable qualities that make anything a necessary existent
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for all we know these qualities may attach to the ordinary physical universe rather than to any
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immaterial thing or person or deity behind it point two is maybe the easier one for you to answer but
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hijab and we also have dr shraib they refuse this argument okay right because what you're doing is
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you're giving the necessary cause this uh necessary uh being yeah i'm sorry necessary existence you're
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giving those attributes to the universe so what you're doing is you're saying and this is where
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shit comes in yeah because we believe i don't truly believe there's atheists exist all they're doing is
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that you don't believe atheists exist i don't believe there's such thing as atheism
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okay what they do is this let me tell you why i might be wrong yeah sure um is that
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what we do is we get mother nature so for example we say oh this is this is mother nature
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what you're doing is you're ascribing a a attribute of god yeah the creator to mother nature it's mother
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nature the tree well look it's mother nature so what you're doing is you're just
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worshipping something besides god i'm not worshipping it really i don't have any i think
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i know what you mean but indirectly what's happening is for example what he said there
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is that this necessary existence may be the universe so what you've done now is you've given
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the properties of a necessary being to something that's contingent ah okay right right let me look
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and that's not a possibility yeah because at the end of the universe can the universe be any other way
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any other way uh what do you mean what do you mean by that so for example the continuous argument
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is that for example the universe could have been any other way the sun could the sun could have
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been there or not be there uh the tree could have been there or not be there your shirt could have
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been there or not it's not necessary it's contingent yes okay yes it's contingent so it could have
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been any other way yeah yeah the necessary existence cannot be any other way everything yeah i get that
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even if we go with the argument of the universe has always been there and it's been created and
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created it all goes back to it still relies on something that relies on something else so it's
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always it's always contingent yeah okay but that's why we say it requires a necessary existence
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for it to make sense because it could have the universe could have exist or not exist yeah
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it could have been there or not there yeah uh sure okay well actually no actually no i don't i don't
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know that for certain i would say maybe maybe the universe was necessary so what we say jacob is
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that excuse me it's necessary existence i mean uh contingent yeah possible existence it could have been
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the same other way yeah the universe could have existed or not could have existed it could have not
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been there but the fact that it is an existence requires a necessary uh uh necessary uh being for
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existence yes yes it requires that this is why we don't we're trying to move away from the kalam
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cosmological argument because yeah leave kalam leave kalam yes even though i believe it's a very
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strong argument but i've been using it so much i just want to use it and this continues i'm kind
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of grasping this too yeah so sure that's fine let me show me too i haven't fully got it but do you
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understand where you're coming from i think i do so several points to just there so um oh what was
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your first point about uh you don't believe in in atheists really oh yeah no that was it we we
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we're taking attributes of god and instead of describing it to mother nature okay right
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so my disagreement with that is that it's the other way around for me what you're doing is
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ascribing elements of mother nature to something and calling it god okay so it's actually you who's
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doing that you know and i don't believe that's a sin or anything but i think that's what you're
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doing i think that um i'm going to be so bold as to think that my position is the more uh innate
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one which i'm sure you disagree with um what was and then you said after that uh just just rehash
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your argument a bit by bit just touch upon that so you believe that because you're basically saying
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we're saying god made man you're saying you guys are claiming you're saying man made god
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uh yes that's what i'm saying yeah yeah yeah yes yes yes okay the evidence to that what i'm trying
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to say is that is is that it goes back to the argument of that can the universe come from nothing
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it cannot now that is sounding a bit calamish i'm trying to go there more forward maybe it can
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make you understand better okay all right i mean the contingency argument can fly over people's
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head yeah so just to bring it back to the basics okay all right go the universe do you believe the
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universe had a beginning um i think it could have done but i'm not i'm not sure i i wouldn't be
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justified in saying yes at the beginning i believe in the big bang but that we don't know the big bang
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was the beginning let's go through the logical arguments yes let's so what we're seeing is that
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if you're walking down the road and you see an accident happening yeah yeah you will say okay
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there's a cause to this accident yes if you go and go to the ice cream somebody comes and gives you
00:21:13.420
ice cream yeah you want ice cream by the way no i'm all right you can say okay i think they got me
00:21:19.160
an ice cream you probably got it from the ice cream shop yes logically you're deducing it
00:21:23.960
you made that mistake that's all right i'll write that logically to come to the best possible
00:21:29.660
understanding logically yes yeah why is it that when it comes to god when we say okay hold on a second
00:21:34.660
the universe yeah um and i'm not even using fine tuning yeah that's fine for example when it
00:21:42.380
comes to the universe we say oh hold on a second i'll stop there now logic put that to a side now
00:21:47.420
now we're going into it may have created itself i'm just wondering why that happened that's all
00:21:52.740
well i did make a logical argument for the for the self-creative no but okay no you don't to be
00:21:57.860
honest okay no no it's all right you can say i'm i'm not offended by anything you say what you want
00:22:02.220
how can something for it to create itself it has to exist and not exist at the same time yeah no
00:22:07.680
no no that's fine that's fine but just when i when i say i made a logical argument that is a fact
00:22:13.920
now you could say oh no your logical argument wasn't valid or it wasn't sound but my argument
00:22:17.580
regarding the infinite causality within the finite time that was a logical argument by definition
00:22:22.000
so whatever you say you didn't make that even if you say infinite uh causations in a finite time
00:22:27.840
yeah yeah yeah which i believe if i'm not mistaken is kind of a contradiction because you're in a
00:22:31.740
finite space and you have an infinite uh uh uh events um infinite chain are there not an infinite
00:22:38.940
number of decimals between zero and one what do you mean by that there are there are an infinite
00:22:44.900
number of decimals number mathematically but operationally in the real world it doesn't exist
00:22:48.400
like i said to you before we can say okay as far as we know infinitely yeah no as far as you know but
00:22:53.380
this is what i'm trying to say yeah you know something as far as you know there's a possibility
00:22:56.600
yeah yeah yeah we're talking about certainty we're talking about something that has to require a
00:23:01.840
cause why is it that we throw that away and we go with the i believe it's absurd possibilities like
00:23:08.420
it creates in itself it's a logical impossibility it coming from nothing a logical impossibility
00:23:12.880
it being there forever again infinite doesn't has no beginning and no end so we cannot add a
00:23:18.100
subtract from infinite yeah yeah yeah the universe had a beginning it's debunks the whole claim of
00:23:22.620
infinite you can you can call it infinite towards the future but not towards the past so alec
00:23:28.180
valenkin seems to think so yes but so far it's just no you get what i'm trying to say i do understand
00:23:32.920
what you're saying i just want it to be like just something that you can ponder upon i'd make a much
00:23:37.880
better argument without these people um you know there will be no laws to say that everything needs
00:23:42.680
a cause because there's no there's not even any any temporality so there's no um kind of uh cause and
00:23:48.260
effect you know cause must proceed effect uh there's no sort of requirement do you still want to say
00:23:52.540
with nothing anything can happen okay no you're saying just because we have laws within our
00:23:57.720
universe yeah yeah doesn't mean there's going to be laws in the nothingness yeah pretty much
00:24:02.800
what i'm trying to say is that firstly to make that leap yeah you need to know what nothingness is
00:24:07.620
yeah so now what we're saying is that nothingness is the absence of something
00:24:12.100
it's the absence of anything it's the absence of anything yes so that's our whole premise
00:24:17.240
because if there was nothing from nothing nothing comes there can't be okay there's that ah but that's
00:24:22.400
what i'm disagreeing with no no we can't say there's some random laws and those laws that are there
00:24:26.260
that they don't apply here yes maybe but the issue is if there was nothing at this point yes
00:24:31.120
if there was a nothingness there is no law there's nothing exactly there's no laws and no god
00:24:37.180
if there's nothing okay okay no no no okay good so what i'm trying to say is this my point is that
00:24:42.000
yeah is that if there is a point of nothingness yeah we say it cannot come into existence if it's a
00:24:50.120
nothingness it's just nothingness yes and i'm not going to say nothing's not going to say
00:24:54.840
yo i'm a man's bored bun this but let me just do it i'll come into existence yeah it's not going to do
00:25:01.060
nothingness is a road man exactly nothing's going to say yeah yeah man needs to go
00:25:04.060
so i'm saying that there was nothing the point that we're saying is the fact that our universe exists
00:25:12.080
requires a cause because if it was nothing we won't be here we won't be arguing there's nothing to argue
00:25:17.100
but it is a nothing from nothingness it's protein in nothingness yeah therefore that proves to us
00:25:21.980
the fact that the universe exists if it does exist it did not come from nothingness yeah there was a
00:25:29.420
cause behind it yeah we believe god can say and it is so god can say i want the universe to begin
00:25:37.420
he has the attributes and that those powers to do it so god has the power to make something come from
00:25:41.780
nothing yeah thank you god right okay that way that's it if that's okay this is where we go to the
00:25:46.000
contingency argument yeah yeah the contingency argument said that everything within our universe
00:25:49.980
is contingent it could have been any other way it requires a necessary existence otherwise nothing
00:25:57.440
would make sense what you said these laws and everything that's in place nothing would make
00:26:01.320
sense the universe either came look i asked you can it come from nothing impossibility zero
00:26:22.540
so can it create itself can the universe create itself it's an impossibility because it has to exist and
00:26:29.100
not exist at the same time can it be infinite no it can't because it had a beginning point
00:26:33.740
infinite doesn't have a beginning doesn't have an end the only logical rational possibility is it
00:26:38.120
had a beginning it had a course that's what i'm logically working am i wrong
00:26:48.080
this is all based upon our world picture and what we know at the moment you're absolutely right
00:26:56.520
with respect you know the thing is is that at the moment we can't have something for nothing as
00:27:01.640
far as we know but in a hundred years time in three hundred years time in a thousand years time
00:27:07.560
somebody might we our our knowledge is expanding our understanding is expanding okay and we may
00:27:14.040
suddenly understand things that seem absolutely impossible at the moment you only have to look at
00:27:21.160
Newton and let's say Einstein the thing is is that so you know Einstein put
00:27:28.920
you're talking about a paradigm shift what Thomas Kooten called a paradigm shift which is a shift in our understanding sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
00:27:33.160
that's like oh i wish yeah yeah no no i i mean you're saying there's
00:27:42.280
bill what was you saying is this but do you not think you're doing like a leap of faith what you're
00:27:45.400
saying is that we may and it might be and we can and sure and maybe don't you think
00:27:50.280
that it's because what you're doing is that you want to believe that there's not a god and
00:27:53.880
you're saying that i might not know now but in the future i might don't you think that's a bit unfair
00:27:57.880
because then why don't you go with the certainty that there is an intelligent being and if in the
00:28:02.760
future you somehow find through these uh this paradigm shift then you can why do we not go with
00:28:08.680
the asset which is the origin that there has to be a creator and then if scientists come and say guys
00:28:13.880
look man something can come from nothing here's boom at least i would say okay then i hear you out
00:28:19.000
but for the time being why are we rejecting a notion which logically rationally makes sense to us
00:28:23.800
and we apply this logic on our daily basis but it comes to god we reject
00:28:27.000
well the creator is only one option that makes sense okay that's the only option i don't think
00:28:31.880
it is sorry what's the other what he even listed some of the options that make sense so so so the
00:28:38.520
ex nihilo model okay the self-creative uh model uh and it's an eternal sorry because just because
00:28:44.520
there are options because someone might come and say no i believe the universe started by a purple
00:28:48.120
elephant in mars yeah yeah to me that is the same sort of you know line of reasoning as as god did it
00:28:55.160
okay so to me you would need just as much proof to prove god as to do so a purple elephant
00:29:05.240
uh yes yes absolutely tell me tell me kind of just with reference to perhaps one of those
00:29:11.080
options tell me sort of like in maybe three sentences something that could be really thought
00:29:16.520
provoking that i need to go and think about to resolve a problem of either the ex nihilo or the
00:29:20.440
self-creating or the eternal one is for example show a um show us a theory that something can create
00:29:28.280
its own self that something can come from nothing or it's infinitely been there these three will smash
00:29:35.480
this argument if you can do this before the big bang before the big bang yes well we can't know there's
00:29:43.000
no way of knowing what happens before the big bang and also whatever happened before the big bang
00:29:47.080
actually has zero influence on what happened after okay because there was a breakdown on the quantum
00:29:51.800
level which would mean there was no nothing that happened before the big bang maybe it was god okay
00:29:56.200
would have any influence on post big bang temporality
00:29:59.560
explanation is that there has to be an intelligent being that's the best explanation to the laws the
00:30:04.600
way we think our conscious consciousness argument the heart problem of consciousness all right we
00:30:08.200
are i'll come to that another day yeah yeah yes absolutely yeah yeah yeah that was good yeah no
00:30:14.280
thank you i appreciate it i'll come to i've got a lot of other stuff to talk about where it's quranic
00:30:19.800
stuff and yeah and if you want if you have any questions your job might come as well okay
00:30:37.320
i'd love to make a job actually yeah yeah yeah thank you three weeks time