Ali Dawah - October 06, 2019


MEAT-EATER VS VEGAN - ANIMAL CRUELTY - SPEAKERS CORNER


Episode Stats


Length

24 minutes

Words per minute

231.25087

Word count

5,577

Sentence count

584

Harmful content

Misogyny

7

sentences flagged

Toxicity

81

sentences flagged

Hate speech

11

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

In this episode, we discuss the controversial topic of whether or not it is necessary to eat animal products. We also talk about the difference between violence and compassion in regards to the treatment of animals, and the reasons why we should not kill them.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.000 It's key there! Unnecessary!
00:00:07.000 Do you think there's any necessity to consume animal products?
00:00:10.000 I'm sorry?
00:00:11.000 Do you think there's any necessity, in today's world, to buy meat or eggs or perry?
00:00:16.000 Well look, I'm not knowledgeable on this matter, but like, obviously it's a source of protein.
00:00:20.000 I try to cut down on weight myself, but you're vegan, you're not even vegetarian, you're vegan.
00:00:24.000 That means, can I drink water?
00:00:26.000 Water?
00:00:27.000 Water doesn't suffer.
00:00:29.000 It is a source of protein.
00:00:32.000 Thank you.
00:00:33.000 It is a source of protein.
00:00:34.000 Show them, show them first.
00:00:35.000 Let's show them what we're doing here.
00:00:37.000 He said that you should be vegan.
00:00:41.000 So he's right now oppressing me.
00:00:43.000 He's saying, you should not, would you like to?
00:00:46.000 So it is a source of protein, but once we establish that we can get that source of protein from somewhere else,
00:00:52.000 then it becomes unnecessary.
00:00:54.000 So my question to you is, are you against unnecessary violence?
00:00:57.000 Unnecessary violence?
00:00:58.000 Yes.
00:00:59.000 What do you define as violence?
00:01:01.000 Violence could be many things. 0.62
00:01:02.000 I say stabbing in the throat. 0.91
00:01:04.000 Yeah, okay.
00:01:05.000 But is that compared to the animal?
00:01:07.000 Sorry.
00:01:08.000 For example, violence obviously, human beings is different to an animal.
00:01:13.000 I believe even animals should not be treated in a certain way.
00:01:16.000 Because we know that the Prophet told us, the Prophet, peace be upon him, I'm a Muslim.
00:01:20.000 He told us that there was a woman who tortured a cat.
00:01:23.000 And because of her actions she was doomed to hellfire.
00:01:26.000 Right. 0.98
00:01:27.000 And there was a prostitute woman who was walking past the well.
00:01:29.000 And there was a dog who was about to die very first, yeah? 0.67
00:01:32.000 Yeah.
00:01:33.000 And she got a shoe, put it down the well, and got water out for her. 0.62
00:01:36.000 And God said that the Prophet said that her sins were forgiven, yeah?
00:01:41.000 So to us, animal cruelty is very severe.
00:01:44.000 So the thing is though, what it is, is that we have different extremes.
00:01:47.000 So I believe you may be from another extreme.
00:01:49.000 What's your name by the way?
00:01:50.000 Jack.
00:01:51.000 I'm Ali.
00:01:52.000 Nice to meet you, yeah?
00:01:53.000 So Jack, you might be coming from another extreme where you're just totally...
00:01:55.000 Like, Islam is balanced.
00:01:56.000 You get it?
00:01:57.000 Like, even when we believe in God, we have fear and hope.
00:01:59.000 Yeah?
00:02:00.000 They both go together.
00:02:01.000 So if you have too much fear, it's not good.
00:02:02.000 If you have too much hope, it's not good.
00:02:03.000 You mentioned, sorry, you mentioned the, um, someone torturing a cat.
00:02:06.000 Yeah.
00:02:07.000 And you see that as wrong.
00:02:08.000 Yes.
00:02:09.000 So why is that wrong?
00:02:10.000 No, that's wrong.
00:02:11.000 Because why are you torturing an animal?
00:02:12.000 For what reason?
00:02:13.000 So because it's unnecessary?
00:02:14.000 No, no, no.
00:02:15.000 It's not that.
00:02:16.000 Like, what's the purpose?
00:02:17.000 Because like we say, for example, snorting an animal, it's not...
00:02:21.000 I don't see that as violence.
00:02:22.000 Because there's a necessity for it, which you believe it's not, yeah?
00:02:27.000 But you can tell me, okay, I can go and get that protein from God knows how many other places.
00:02:31.000 But I can say to you, but I can get it from just that one meat instead of going to a different place, yeah?
00:02:34.000 Okay.
00:02:35.000 So you can say, okay, to get the same protein...
00:02:36.000 So it's unnecessary then?
00:02:37.000 I believe, look, would I die without it?
00:02:41.000 I don't think so, yeah?
00:02:42.000 Yeah?
00:02:43.000 But, for example, to not eat it because of, I don't know what other reason that you deem
00:02:48.000 to be, yeah?
00:02:49.000 So an animal can die for a variety of reasons, yeah?
00:02:52.000 So to us, for it to be done in a humane way, and that you don't go to the animal and kick 0.98
00:02:57.000 it and beat it up, that's ridiculous, yeah? 0.98
00:02:59.000 And that's haram in Islam. 0.99
00:03:00.000 Yeah? 0.66
00:03:01.000 That's the reason why when you slaughter an animal in Islam, you should move away from 1.00
00:03:04.000 the other animals. 0.91
00:03:05.000 So the other animals don't see it.
00:03:07.000 The definition of humane is to show compassion or benevolence.
00:03:10.000 Yes.
00:03:11.000 So how do we compassionately kill an animal for a necessary reason?
00:03:13.000 No, no, no, no.
00:03:14.000 Like I said to you before, I believe there is a kind of a necessary need.
00:03:18.000 Not absolutely necessary, like...
00:03:20.000 It's a black or white.
00:03:21.000 It's the reason or the reason.
00:03:22.000 No, no, no, really.
00:03:23.000 You can't give it a matter of black or white.
00:03:24.000 Like, for example, you need...
00:03:26.000 So, for example, you need some...
00:03:28.000 Sometimes you need to implement violence to bring peace.
00:03:31.000 Okay, yeah.
00:03:32.000 So the thing is, in that aspect, we have to...
00:03:35.000 The police, for example, they would use their batons or whatever.
00:03:38.000 But when it comes to you, they will use rubber bullets.
00:03:40.000 And then people say, oh, okay, it's about to get real.
00:03:42.000 So then you need certain...
00:03:44.000 So, like this whole thing of, you know, kumbaya and, you know, like, you know...
00:03:48.000 But what peace does it bring to kill an animal?
00:03:50.000 What's that peace?
00:03:51.000 No, no, no.
00:03:52.000 The thing here is this, yeah?
00:03:53.000 Okay.
00:03:54.000 Number one, you don't have to torture an animal, yeah?
00:03:56.000 So, for example, to slit their throat, yeah?
00:03:59.000 Firstly, that's why we are told to sharpen the knife, yeah? 0.94
00:04:01.000 Cover the animal's eyes, yeah?
00:04:03.000 Okay?
00:04:04.000 And do it as fast as possible.
00:04:06.000 They do not feel pain, yeah?
00:04:07.000 So, you know, if we've got two, you know, chocolate veins, yeah?
00:04:10.000 One of them is gone...
00:04:12.000 Have you ever blacked out before?
00:04:13.000 Sorry?
00:04:14.000 Have you ever blacked out before?
00:04:15.000 No.
00:04:16.000 Yeah?
00:04:17.000 Okay.
00:04:18.000 It's usually my healthy diet.
00:04:19.000 I know what happens to me.
00:04:20.000 No, but there's actually...
00:04:21.000 I heard there's a recent study that says that vegans are more likely to have...
00:04:25.000 I don't know.
00:04:26.000 I've heard of it.
00:04:27.000 I've heard of it.
00:04:28.000 Okay.
00:04:29.000 We don't know.
00:04:30.000 We don't know.
00:04:31.000 The point here is this.
00:04:32.000 I'm not going to use that against you, yeah?
00:04:33.000 And I would think to use that for having me...
00:04:35.000 It wouldn't be fair as well.
00:04:36.000 But I'm thinking to come to a balance, yeah?
00:04:38.000 Okay.
00:04:39.000 Let's say I've got a dog in front of you.
00:04:40.000 Yes.
00:04:41.000 I get a knife out.
00:04:42.000 Right?
00:04:43.000 See, this knife is very sharp.
00:04:44.000 Yes. 1.00
00:04:45.000 And I try and slit the dog's throat. 0.98
00:04:46.000 What's the purpose? 0.99
00:04:47.000 It gives me pleasure. 1.00
00:04:48.000 No, you're crazy. 0.99
00:04:49.000 Taste pleasure. 0.99
00:04:50.000 No, no, it's crazy.
00:04:51.000 Taste pleasure. 1.00
00:04:52.000 You're crazy. 0.98
00:04:53.000 Can I get a police officer for this knife, please? 1.00
00:04:55.000 No, but why do you eat...
00:04:56.000 Why do people eat meat?
00:04:57.000 It's for the taste pleasure.
00:04:58.000 No, no, there's a variety of reasons.
00:05:00.000 We have to survive.
00:05:01.000 That's not why.
00:05:02.000 We're not doing it for survival.
00:05:03.000 No, no, no.
00:05:04.000 But you do...
00:05:05.000 Do you affirm that, for example, our ancestors, yeah?
00:05:08.000 Yeah.
00:05:09.000 It wasn't easy to get apple and...
00:05:10.000 Oh, sure.
00:05:11.000 Okay.
00:05:12.000 So what that means is now you're saying that in today's age we don't need it.
00:05:15.000 Yes.
00:05:16.000 That's subjective.
00:05:17.000 But our ancestors did need it to survive.
00:05:19.000 Okay, but...
00:05:20.000 So you wouldn't be here today if you didn't eat meat.
00:05:22.000 Yes, okay. 1.00
00:05:23.000 But I also wouldn't be here if you didn't rape other women. 1.00
00:05:25.000 I wouldn't be here. 0.99
00:05:26.000 Because that...
00:05:27.000 You can...
00:05:28.000 You can...
00:05:29.000 You can have children without... 0.63
00:05:31.000 No, you can. 1.00
00:05:32.000 Because my ancestors will have raped people. 1.00
00:05:34.000 I wouldn't be here without rape. 1.00
00:05:35.000 How do you know they're raped? 1.00
00:05:36.000 Because...
00:05:37.000 What do you mean how do I know?
00:05:38.000 Because...
00:05:39.000 Because we're going back thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of years.
00:05:41.000 Married?
00:05:42.000 Like...
00:05:43.000 Relationship married? 0.99
00:05:44.000 Why do you have to be raped? 1.00
00:05:45.000 No, my point is just because something happened in the past, that doesn't make it ethical today. 0.82
00:05:49.000 And you can find...
00:05:50.000 It depends, but...
00:05:51.000 No, no, no.
00:05:52.000 You can find a context, right?
00:05:53.000 Where...
00:05:54.000 Where it would be ethical.
00:05:55.000 Our ancestors needed to survive, so therefore it was ethical then.
00:05:56.000 That doesn't make it ethical in this context.
00:05:58.000 In the same sense, killing another human can be justified in some context.
00:06:01.000 In self-defense, violence can be justified.
00:06:03.000 That doesn't justify it in the context where I don't need to.
00:06:06.000 Okay, but the thing is you're giving extreme examples.
00:06:09.000 You're talking about rape.
00:06:10.000 I'm talking about in general, maybe they got married and a variety of other reasons.
00:06:13.000 Yeah, okay.
00:06:14.000 So the thing is though, I'm saying that to have meat, it's not an absolute...
00:06:19.000 No Muslim will say to you, to be a Muslim you have to eat meat.
00:06:22.000 You don't have to eat meat.
00:06:23.000 Exactly.
00:06:24.000 But the issue is to condemn somebody that eats meat or to see them as barbaric, I would say that's wrong.
00:06:28.000 Because there has to be a fine balance.
00:06:30.000 I'm not condemning you.
00:06:31.000 Yeah.
00:06:32.000 What's your bad guy?
00:06:33.000 Are you religious?
00:06:34.000 No, I'm an atheist.
00:06:35.000 Oh, you're an atheist.
00:06:36.000 Oh, okay.
00:06:37.000 But I'm not saying you're a bad person for consuming other products.
00:06:39.000 So, so, so, so.
00:06:40.000 Look, do you know there are some recent studies also show that plants have, like, they can sense pain as well.
00:06:46.000 There's no research that, there's no evidence that plants can feel pain.
00:06:49.000 There is, there is, there is some, I'll try to find it for you, but there is some evidence towards it.
00:06:54.000 Would you agree that they are living, would you say they're not living?
00:06:57.000 Yes, they're living.
00:06:58.000 Okay, so then the point that comes to is this, yeah, is that I can come and use the same argument and be like, look, for example, the tomato, or for example, and you don't know.
00:07:06.000 If, let's say, arguments say, if science finds out that these tomatoes or these things actually feel pain, what does one do?
00:07:13.000 Sure.
00:07:14.000 Because then it's going to come back to a necessity of, okay.
00:07:17.000 I can answer that.
00:07:18.000 Imagine, imagine, if that was the case, you would probably, you might say, you can answer, you might say, you know what, when we eat the tomato, we'll, where does it feel pain?
00:07:25.000 Okay, when you cut in the middle, okay, we'll try to do it this way, so it's less painful.
00:07:28.000 So, as a Muslim, we say, we implement the same thing as, look, we see it as some kind of a necessity, not an absolute, and doing procedures in place, so the animal, you're not hitting it, etc.
00:07:40.000 Let's say you're right, let's say all the plants are sentient beings, they feel pain, they want to live.
00:07:44.000 The thing is, the animals we eat, we are feeding with plants, so there are more plant deaths because we eat the animals, so we'd actually be using far less plants if you went vegan.
00:07:54.000 Okay, okay, good, very, very good point. But the issue with, my point is this, is that, to me, we live in a system where there's laws.
00:08:02.000 Yeah. Yeah? So, if those doors are in place, I can say, you know what, me, maybe I'm stepping on some kind of living particles here, let me not move.
00:08:09.000 Yeah. Yeah, let me not do nothing. Then, the reality kicks in, and then we need to say to ourselves, okay, look, we can combat animal cruelty.
00:08:18.000 I'll say, let's join forces, yeah? Like Allah says to us in the Quran,
00:08:23.000 come together against righteousness, yeah? Now, with this, we can define about, you know, are we coming together against oppression?
00:08:30.000 Yes, towards animals. We can come and join forces for that. But, what is our purpose? To lower, lessen the harm towards animals.
00:08:39.000 Being hid, pulled, stabbed, this is disgusting behaviour. And killed. No, no, see, that's different, yeah?
00:08:44.000 The, the, the example you used of... So, so, so, so, so, I think, don't you think, what was your name, sorry?
00:08:48.000 Jack. Jack, don't you think, the first step that we should take is this, animals are going to be slaughtered to be eaten. 0.98
00:08:54.000 It's going to happen, yeah? It's going to happen. It doesn't have to. I know, but it's going to happen.
00:08:58.000 It's going to happen. I think we should combat animal cruelty. Because this is, firstly, the first one we can argue with it,
00:09:04.000 we can debate with it, we can say, oh, necessity, but Allah...
00:09:06.000 How do you define cruelty? Yeah? How do you define that?
00:09:09.000 I, I, personally, if you ask me, I would say, erm, being harsh to, being harsh to any living being unnecessarily.
00:09:17.000 No, no, that's even wrong, because you can't... 0.93
00:09:19.000 I would include stabbing them in the throat for the necessary reason in that definition. 0.97
00:09:21.000 No, stabbing is different to cutting. 1.00
00:09:23.000 Okay, cutting them in the throat for the necessary reason. 1.00
00:09:25.000 Stabbing is... 1.00
00:09:26.000 Okay, so, how would you, how would you do it? You just cut?
00:09:28.000 No, no, no, no, you have to, because the whole point behind it, we have a method of doing it, yeah?
00:09:31.000 The animal needs to be moved away from the other animals, because they don't want to, they don't want to see it. It's gruesome.
00:09:35.000 Would you accept this in a human context?
00:09:37.000 No.
00:09:38.000 Why?
00:09:39.000 Because why do I need to cut a human being? For what reason?
00:09:41.000 Maybe because you like the way they taste?
00:09:43.000 No, I prefer chicken.
00:09:45.000 Yeah, sure, yeah.
00:09:47.000 What?
00:09:49.000 Okay.
00:09:50.000 Okay, he's, he's, he's, he's talking about animals.
00:09:53.000 Is it vegan?
00:09:54.000 Okay. 0.61
00:09:55.000 So, under Islam, under Islam there's a halal ways of killing animals, right? 0.99
00:09:59.000 Yeah.
00:10:00.000 But there isn't a halal way of killing plants, right?
00:10:02.000 Because, what, why is that?
00:10:04.000 Okay, so, so for example, we haven't been told that, but even for us, we are told that even when you go to war, do not harm trees.
00:10:11.000 You're not allowed to harm trees, yeah?
00:10:13.000 Yeah.
00:10:14.000 And the prophet said, in one of his hadith, the signs of the day of judgment, the signs of the end of the world, yeah?
00:10:19.000 These are prophecies.
00:10:21.000 He said that even if it's the day of judgment, if you're planting a plant, carry on.
00:10:27.000 Don't be like, ah, finish.
00:10:30.000 So, it's important to do something for society, but we haven't been told directly, for example, that how you treat animals, I mean, plants.
00:10:39.000 We haven't.
00:10:40.000 There's no distinction there in Islam.
00:10:41.000 No, no, no, of course, of course.
00:10:42.000 Like, with us, we've been told animals, because, obviously, consume animals, and we consume fruit and vegetables as well, but we haven't been told that they have some kind of feelings or emotions.
00:10:50.000 We don't know yet.
00:10:51.000 And you already acknowledged the fact that the animals we eat are fed of plants, so you agree?
00:10:55.000 No, no, of course, I've accepted that, but what I'm coming back to is the reality that we live in.
00:10:58.000 Yeah, and you brought up the point that you could be hurting animals and creatures all the time without knowing.
00:11:02.000 Yeah, yeah, so then what do we do?
00:11:03.000 But the difference here is intent.
00:11:04.000 So, if you accidentally walk on an insect, that's different morally to purposefully slit someone's throat.
00:11:10.000 But then what you need to do is then, does that mean that we go and kill the animals that eat the plants?
00:11:16.000 Like, because they're the ones killing, because you said, like, the animals are the ones who eat more vegetables.
00:11:22.000 So they're causing mass murder.
00:11:24.000 No, because I don't... 0.99
00:11:25.000 Do we go and kill them to protect the animals?
00:11:27.000 No, because I don't believe that the plants are sentient beings.
00:11:30.000 Okay, if they did, then would it be fair for me to come and say, let's slaughter sheep more so they don't kill, they don't cause more...
00:11:37.000 It would make sense to stop breeding the sheep.
00:11:39.000 But then do we know what she told you to get rid of them?
00:11:41.000 Stop breeding them, yeah.
00:11:42.000 Yeah, and if we do that, you see, the reality kicks in.
00:11:45.000 Listen, I understand where you're coming from. Don't get me wrong here.
00:11:47.000 I understand where you're coming from. You seem like someone that's caring.
00:11:49.000 Yeah, you've come here, you've done this. Why? Because you care for the animals.
00:11:52.000 We care for the animals as well. We're just saying, can we have a middle ground?
00:11:55.000 Can we have a middle understanding?
00:11:57.000 Well, let's start off with stopping cruelty to animals, be it in the slaughterhouses or be it in general.
00:12:02.000 Because then once we come to obstacle, then at least there's less animal suffering.
00:12:06.000 And then we can talk about humane ways of...
00:12:09.000 Because we're not going to stop them. At least let's tell them...
00:12:12.000 How? Tell me how. I'm going to join them.
00:12:14.000 Because it's a fine demand. The more we buy, the more they create.
00:12:17.000 But that's what I'm saying. As human beings, we're greedy people.
00:12:20.000 They're not going to stop. What do we do?
00:12:21.000 But you can stop your impact. You can leave here today and never exploit animals again by picking up vegan sausages rather than pig sausages.
00:12:27.000 No, no, I love Griggs, vegan sausages.
00:12:29.000 Yeah, amazing, right?
00:12:30.000 I should sponsor this video. I'm telling you, I love it. It's absolutely amazing.
00:12:34.000 Yeah, no, no.
00:12:35.000 Because I find apple sausages, it's not up.
00:12:36.000 Of course, yeah.
00:12:37.000 So why would we exploit animals when we have that clear alternative?
00:12:40.000 Look, it comes back to reality. These people... Like, it's good.
00:12:43.000 But you need to morally justify the behaviour of hurting animals.
00:12:46.000 No, no, 100%. But then again, I don't believe that doing it in a humane way, I believe it doesn't hurt an animal.
00:12:51.000 I believe if you sharpen the knife and do it as fast as possible, I believe...
00:12:55.000 Do you think the same thing could be said for a human, if I do a really sharp knife and slit the throat? 0.62
00:12:59.000 It might be. It's about science. For example, if I put you in a choco, or you put me in a choco, yeah? 0.98
00:13:04.000 Yeah.
00:13:05.000 And then, after a certain amount, I black out. Why? Because the blood doesn't go to the brain.
00:13:10.000 So is it ethical for me to slit someone's throat?
00:13:13.000 No, no, no. You're going to extreme. Why are you slitting the throat? For what purpose? 0.69
00:13:16.000 Because I like the way they taste.
00:13:17.000 No, no, no.
00:13:18.000 I get pleasure from it.
00:13:19.000 There's chicken, there's lamb, there's a lot of other reasons.
00:13:21.000 Do you get it? There's cannibalism. I'm saying there's a variety of options.
00:13:24.000 However, in the context of you're in a cave, yeah? You're going to die.
00:13:27.000 But that's not the context you're in.
00:13:28.000 No, no, no, I know. 0.93
00:13:29.000 I'm saying, like, if I was going to kill someone now, say I killed someone of your friends. 0.95
00:13:32.000 Yes. 0.86
00:13:33.000 And you said, what are you doing?
00:13:34.000 Please don't kill them.
00:13:35.000 I won't, I won't.
00:13:36.000 But hypothetically, and I said, I used a sharp knife, they didn't feel a thing.
00:13:39.000 Yeah.
00:13:40.000 Would that make it ethical?
00:13:41.000 No, because you're taking the human life. For no reason, but just to...
00:13:45.000 Taste. 0.99
00:13:46.000 Well, you could say taste, but what's the purpose of killing them? 0.99
00:13:49.000 Because I like the way they taste, that's the reason I'm doing it. 0.99
00:13:51.000 No, no.
00:13:52.000 But still, again...
00:13:53.000 I just love the way they taste, I slid and throw, eat them.
00:13:55.000 Okay, I would say it's not justified, because a human and an animal is not the same.
00:13:58.000 Okay.
00:13:59.000 Well, what's the difference that justifies that difference in treatment?
00:14:02.000 Of course, he's a human being, yeah?
00:14:04.000 He has faculties that an animal doesn't have.
00:14:06.000 Which faculties?
00:14:07.000 There's a lot of emotions, he's got a...
00:14:09.000 Well, you can say animals have families as well, etc.
00:14:11.000 But we're more intelligent, yeah, there's a lot of that we can do.
00:14:14.000 Do you think we should assign moral value based on intelligence?
00:14:17.000 So if you're more intelligent than me, should you be treated better than me?
00:14:20.000 No, no, no.
00:14:21.000 So what?
00:14:22.000 If you're more intelligent than me, should you be treated better than me?
00:14:24.000 No, no, no.
00:14:25.000 I'm saying, as human beings, we're not the same as animals.
00:14:27.000 Of course, I agree.
00:14:28.000 But you're not the same as me, either.
00:14:29.000 To kill a human being, I wouldn't say it's the same as killing an animal.
00:14:34.000 You don't need to value the animal to the same value as human in order not to enslave them.
00:14:39.000 You just need to believe that the animal is worth more than your taste pleasure.
00:14:42.000 No, no.
00:14:43.000 It's not just about taste, it's about survival as well.
00:14:45.000 It's not.
00:14:46.000 Right.
00:14:47.000 Do you admit that you could leave here today and be vegan?
00:14:50.000 Yeah, maybe.
00:14:51.000 So it's not survival?
00:14:52.000 No, it can be.
00:14:53.000 But for you?
00:14:54.000 For you?
00:14:55.000 No, it depends.
00:14:56.000 How am I going to get that?
00:14:57.000 For example, what am I going to eat?
00:14:58.000 Can I afford it?
00:14:59.000 So for example, the last time you're telling me to live, can I live by it?
00:15:02.000 You get what I'm trying to say?
00:15:03.000 Yeah, but you can.
00:15:04.000 These are all the factors, but I don't know that.
00:15:05.000 Okay.
00:15:06.000 That's research.
00:15:07.000 Sure, yeah, yeah.
00:15:08.000 So if you think about price, the cheapest foods in the supermarket, rice, beans, lentils,
00:15:12.000 vegetables, it's all vegan.
00:15:13.000 Yes, and vegan is quite expensive.
00:15:15.000 No, no.
00:15:16.000 It can be, but it doesn't have to be.
00:15:17.000 Yeah, exactly.
00:15:18.000 So what I'm saying is that there's a whole commitment behind it.
00:15:21.000 Yeah?
00:15:22.000 But what I'm saying is that it goes back to, again, to have a fine balance.
00:15:25.000 We should not go from one extreme to another.
00:15:27.000 I'm not coming to telling you that you have to be, to be a Muslim you have to eat meat.
00:15:31.000 I'm not saying that. 0.96
00:15:32.000 I'm saying, look, you can't be a vegan Muslim. 1.00
00:15:33.000 Well, that's because my choice of being a vegan doesn't have a victim, or as yours does. 0.97
00:15:37.000 Someone's dying for you.
00:15:38.000 No, no, I can say that.
00:15:39.000 For example, if I opened up a decent research, I believe that plants do have...
00:15:42.000 But you're killing more plants than me by consuming...
00:15:45.000 No, no, the animals that we're eating is killing more plants.
00:15:47.000 So then it goes back to...
00:15:48.000 Sure, but they're only there because we're breeding them.
00:15:51.000 No, no, I know.
00:15:52.000 But even if we didn't eat them, they still need to survive.
00:15:54.000 Look, it's their survival.
00:15:55.000 No, because we're breeding them. 0.79
00:15:56.000 Who wouldn't be there?
00:15:57.000 Okay, one second.
00:15:58.000 It's their survival.
00:15:59.000 It's their survival of the sheep, the cow.
00:16:00.000 It's their survival to eat grass.
00:16:01.000 Yeah, but they're only there.
00:16:03.000 So to take that away from them...
00:16:05.000 You do take that away from them.
00:16:06.000 No, no, but if you do, that's oppression to them.
00:16:09.000 But you do do that. 1.00
00:16:10.000 You take it away from them when you kill them after six months. 0.98
00:16:12.000 No, that's what I'm trying to say. 0.99
00:16:13.000 It's a cycle.
00:16:15.000 If you take them away from what they're eating because they're killing vegetables or whatever,
00:16:22.000 then they're just going to die. 1.00
00:16:25.000 You're going to kill them. 1.00
00:16:26.000 Why? 1.00
00:16:27.000 Oh, you can't eat vegetables.
00:16:28.000 We just stop breeding them.
00:16:29.000 We stop breeding billions of them every year.
00:16:31.000 Okay, then that means you're ending life.
00:16:33.000 Based on life because they want to survive.
00:16:35.000 And you're doing the same for us.
00:16:38.000 We want to survive.
00:16:39.000 We want to eat.
00:16:40.000 For example, let's say it's not for survival.
00:16:41.000 Yeah?
00:16:42.000 Argument sake.
00:16:43.000 So you're doing the same with us. 0.99
00:16:44.000 Then terminate all human beings. 0.94
00:16:46.000 Yeah? 0.99
00:16:47.000 Because if vegetables have or plants have emotions and feelings, we're all dead.
00:16:53.000 We can't eat nothing.
00:16:55.000 But is there evidence that they have emotions?
00:16:57.000 Okay.
00:16:58.000 If they do, Jack, that means we need to get rid of the sheep because the sheep are killing the vegetables.
00:17:03.000 We can't eat them because we don't want to hurt them.
00:17:06.000 No, no, no, we can't eat nothing.
00:17:07.000 Right, this is what happened.
00:17:08.000 This is what happened.
00:17:09.000 This is what happened.
00:17:10.000 This is what happened.
00:17:11.000 Let's say we found out.
00:17:12.000 This is, we found out the plants are feelings.
00:17:13.000 They love their families, all that stuff.
00:17:14.000 Yeah.
00:17:15.000 What we do is we kill the least amount possible.
00:17:18.000 Ah, good.
00:17:19.000 How would you do that?
00:17:20.000 Yeah, Jack, that's what I'm saying.
00:17:21.000 Do you know how we do that?
00:17:22.000 Yeah.
00:17:23.000 We stop breeding animals and eat the plants directly.
00:17:26.000 No, no, no.
00:17:27.000 But see, that's again, you're still, the point comes to, you don't want to hurt anyone.
00:17:30.000 Of course.
00:17:31.000 Now you're going against your principle with the lesser of two evils.
00:17:33.000 That's the scenario where we have to choose the lesser of two evils.
00:17:35.000 Exactly.
00:17:36.000 But we're not in that scenario.
00:17:37.000 I know, but Jack, you see, this is where the survival kicks in and you're like, okay,
00:17:41.000 what's the best thing to do, yeah?
00:17:42.000 Yeah, yeah.
00:17:43.000 So I'm saying, let's come together.
00:17:44.000 The best thing to do is to stop animal cruelty because- 0.98
00:17:47.000 Which includes breeding and killing them. 0.99
00:17:49.000 Okay. 1.00
00:17:50.000 But I'm saying, right now, breeding and killing them in a harsh, terrible way is not the same 0.95
00:17:56.000 as treating them in a dignified manner, yes?
00:17:59.000 In a dignified manner, when it comes to the slaughter, it is that moment of time of one
00:18:04.000 minute of, let's say, argument's sake, they feel pain.
00:18:06.000 Yeah.
00:18:07.000 Then, torturing them throughout their life, putting them in cages.
00:18:10.000 Okay, it's worse.
00:18:11.000 So I'm saying, the lesser of two evils for me and you to come together is to work on that.
00:18:15.000 So we've got three options.
00:18:16.000 Otherwise we're dead.
00:18:17.000 It's either you live or you're dead, you can't eat plants.
00:18:19.000 We've got three options. 1.00
00:18:20.000 We've got, give them terrible lives in cages, torture them and then kill them. 1.00
00:18:23.000 Then we've got the, the way we kill them after happy lives. 1.00
00:18:27.000 No, no, no. 1.00
00:18:28.000 They live a happy life.
00:18:29.000 Happy lives. 1.00
00:18:30.000 And we kill them quickly. 1.00
00:18:31.000 And then, at the moment of slaughter, you kill them. 1.00
00:18:33.000 Just the way, just the way, if we learn that the vegetables and plants have feelings, 0.76
00:18:37.000 that we're going to have to sacrifice and say, okay, the scientists, what's the fastest
00:18:41.000 way for us to do this so they don't feel pain?
00:18:43.000 Okay, get them from the roots.
00:18:44.000 Sure, sure.
00:18:45.000 But that's, that's the second option.
00:18:47.000 The third option is just leave them alone. 0.99
00:18:49.000 But we will die.
00:18:50.000 We won't die.
00:18:51.000 But if all the vegetables and plants had feelings, we're all finished.
00:18:55.000 No, no, but, okay, well, they don't, but let's say they did.
00:18:57.000 If they did.
00:18:58.000 Let's say they did.
00:18:59.000 We still shouldn't feed animals.
00:19:00.000 We'll die.
00:19:01.000 We'll die. 1.00
00:19:02.000 We'll get rid of animals. 0.85
00:19:03.000 Then we have plants.
00:19:04.000 Yes.
00:19:05.000 Then we can't have that because we're going to harm them. 0.99
00:19:07.000 Then we have to die.
00:19:08.000 Then it will be a necessity. 0.97
00:19:09.000 Ah, okay.
00:19:11.000 Then can we agree then, for example, if there is a certain necessity to have animals, can
00:19:17.000 we have them?
00:19:18.000 It can be justified if it's a necessity.
00:19:19.000 Of course.
00:19:20.000 Cannibalism can be justified.
00:19:21.000 Okay.
00:19:22.000 So what you're saying is extravagance.
00:19:23.000 No, I'm saying that there is absolutely no necessity.
00:19:27.000 The American Dietetic Association, the largest organization of nutrition experts in the world,
00:19:31.000 2016, they said that a vegan diet is healthy for all stages of life.
00:19:34.000 No, being healthy, I respect that.
00:19:36.000 But the thing is that for us, if there is a necessity to eat meat,
00:19:41.000 Then you can justify it.
00:19:42.000 Can you agree that they would justify it?
00:19:44.000 I also believe, yes.
00:19:45.000 And I also believe that you can justify violence to humans if it's a necessity.
00:19:48.000 Okay, yes, yes, in certain aspects.
00:19:49.000 So you're coming on the same page.
00:19:51.000 Exactly.
00:19:52.000 So what you're against, I think what we're against is right.
00:19:54.000 Because even the Prophet, peace be upon him, he wouldn't have meat. 0.95
00:19:57.000 We have meat every day.
00:19:58.000 It's actually disgusting.
00:19:59.000 Yeah?
00:20:00.000 The way we exploit it.
00:20:01.000 Yeah?
00:20:02.000 So I think I'm with you on that.
00:20:03.000 Yeah?
00:20:04.000 That the exploitation, the level that we're at, it's wrong.
00:20:07.000 Yeah?
00:20:08.000 So what we need to do is, that whatever necessitates, that should be done.
00:20:13.000 Yeah?
00:20:14.000 So if I was to show you that there was no necessity to consuming animals at all, would you-
00:20:19.000 You'll have to do that because there has to be studies.
00:20:21.000 Yes.
00:20:22.000 There has to be, what do I have to do?
00:20:23.000 So for example, I've tried a vegetarian diet and like sometimes I just feel like really
00:20:27.000 weak.
00:20:28.000 Yeah?
00:20:29.000 I'll go train as well.
00:20:30.000 And even though I know there's some vegan trainers as well.
00:20:31.000 I've seen that they're quite hungry as well.
00:20:32.000 Yeah?
00:20:33.000 Okay.
00:20:34.000 I've tried to feed the cats meat.
00:20:36.000 Yeah?
00:20:37.000 Yeah. 0.84
00:20:38.000 Hypocrisy. 0.97
00:20:39.000 But the point what I'm saying is, yeah, it is, it's hypocrisy. 0.86
00:20:40.000 But what I'm saying is, is that look, it'll be oppression for me to go and force my way
00:20:46.000 of life to other people.
00:20:47.000 We can reduce it.
00:20:48.000 We can say, look, exploitation, you don't have to have chicken every day.
00:20:50.000 You don't have to have beef every day.
00:20:51.000 Yeah?
00:20:52.000 You shouldn't.
00:20:53.000 The Prophet ï·º never did that.
00:20:54.000 Yeah?
00:20:55.000 That's a Muslim.
00:20:56.000 We can do a certain amount and work our way down to slowing animal cruelty.
00:21:00.000 But the thing is with forcing people to do things, we should force people to do certain
00:21:04.000 things.
00:21:05.000 Certain things, yes.
00:21:06.000 I guess the better way of putting it is force people not to do certain things.
00:21:08.000 So we force people not to murder.
00:21:09.000 We try to force people, we try to force people not to abuse children.
00:21:12.000 Yes.
00:21:13.000 We try to force people not to abuse dogs or kill dogs.
00:21:15.000 Yes.
00:21:16.000 And I think we should also extend chickens, pigs and cows and force people not to exploit 0.83
00:21:20.000 and kill them as well. 0.80
00:21:21.000 Yes. 1.00
00:21:22.000 We should force to minimize unnecessary killing of animals.
00:21:25.000 There we go.
00:21:26.000 So we agree.
00:21:27.000 Yes.
00:21:28.000 So as soon as you were to find that it's unnecessary to eat animals, you agree that it becomes a
00:21:32.000 moral obligation to be vegan.
00:21:35.000 Look, I as a Muslim can't say that.
00:21:38.000 But as a Muslim, I won't say that somebody is committing haram for eating meat.
00:21:43.000 Yeah?
00:21:44.000 I can't say that.
00:21:45.000 You don't need to be a...
00:21:46.000 You said it.
00:21:47.000 We should...
00:21:48.000 No, we should.
00:21:49.000 That's subjective.
00:21:50.000 So we can say as Muslims, have meat, it's better for you to have meat. 1.00
00:21:54.000 So for example, the Prophet, these people have said to us that there is disease in red meat.
00:21:58.000 Right.
00:21:59.000 Yeah?
00:22:00.000 Sure.
00:22:01.000 So it tells us to cut down on red meat.
00:22:02.000 Yeah?
00:22:03.000 So the Prophet will eat all kinds of food, dates and honey and all other kinds of stuff.
00:22:06.000 Yeah?
00:22:07.000 And then we need to talk about the factors, the harms that this may have to the bees when
00:22:10.000 you go and get the honey.
00:22:11.000 Yeah.
00:22:12.000 So there's such a massive issue...
00:22:13.000 It's easy not to eat honey as well.
00:22:14.000 That needs to be...
00:22:15.000 No, but that's what I'm saying.
00:22:16.000 Then we have to... 0.91
00:22:17.000 But you said, we should only kill animals as much as is necessary. 0.96
00:22:20.000 Yes.
00:22:21.000 So...
00:22:22.000 And that's objective.
00:22:23.000 We don't know.
00:22:24.000 We need to do figures.
00:22:25.000 We need to say, okay, 200 million animals should be killed, not 3 billion.
00:22:28.000 Or zero if it's not necessary for us.
00:22:30.000 No.
00:22:31.000 That needs to be argued.
00:22:32.000 Sure.
00:22:33.000 If you wish that you could live healthy for the rest of your life as a vegan...
00:22:35.000 Yeah.
00:22:36.000 You would do it.
00:22:37.000 I would do it, but I would not force someone else to do it.
00:22:38.000 Okay.
00:22:39.000 That's fine.
00:22:40.000 I can live with that.
00:22:41.000 I can live with that.
00:22:42.000 As a Muslim, I don't need to.
00:22:43.000 My, hopefully, entrance to paradise is la ilaha illallah.
00:22:46.000 It's not an e in meat.
00:22:48.000 Really?
00:22:49.000 I'll give you a card.
00:22:50.000 Yes.
00:22:51.000 Do you believe in God?
00:22:52.000 No.
00:22:53.000 Why?
00:22:54.000 You broke my heart now.
00:22:55.000 I just haven't seen any evidence for it.
00:22:56.000 Okay.
00:22:57.000 Should we talk about that?
00:22:58.000 I might come back later after I finish recording it and talk about that.
00:22:59.000 Okay.
00:23:00.000 Thank you.
00:23:01.000 It's a sentimental thing it goes back to.
00:23:02.000 You know?
00:23:03.000 Because at the end of the day, we're talking about being cruel to animals.
00:23:06.000 Yeah?
00:23:07.000 We can't be cruel to God.
00:23:08.000 God is most powerful.
00:23:09.000 Yeah?
00:23:10.000 Yeah.
00:23:11.000 But we need to understand that as much as we care about the animals and their emotions,
00:23:15.000 etc.
00:23:16.000 We need to acknowledge that, obviously, if there's a higher intelligence, that he has rights as
00:23:20.000 well.
00:23:21.000 And that we should try our best to obey his laws as well.
00:23:23.000 Do you understand what I'm trying to say?
00:23:24.000 Yeah.
00:23:25.000 Fair enough.
00:23:26.000 Because then it will be hypocrisy.
00:23:27.000 We're caring about the ants and everyone else, but the one who created the heavens and the earth
00:23:29.000 and that.
00:23:30.000 Well, good to talk to you.
00:23:31.000 Have a look at that card.
00:23:32.000 I think this is one of the most beautiful conversations I had in the past.
00:23:34.000 Oh, I'm glad to hear it.
00:23:35.000 Thank you, man.
00:23:36.000 There's some health information on there, right?
00:23:38.000 I'll come back in a week and you'll be vegan and you can do the interviews with me.
00:23:41.000 I like it.
00:23:42.000 I try my best, man.
00:23:43.000 I try to cut it down on meat, you know?
00:23:44.000 Trust me, man.
00:23:45.000 Sometimes it's not healthy.
00:23:47.000 It's not healthy.
00:23:48.000 Trust me.
00:23:49.000 I appreciate it.
00:23:50.000 It's not eating meat.
00:23:51.000 Eating meat is not healthy, I'm saying.
00:23:52.000 Oh, yeah, yeah.
00:23:53.000 It's not, it's not.
00:23:54.000 I'm with you on that, man.
00:23:55.000 Well, good to talk to you.
00:23:56.000 Thanks, man.
00:23:57.000 As you can see, Bob and Sister, we're having beautiful discussions here in the park.
00:24:00.000 Vegans.
00:24:01.000 Vegetarians.
00:24:02.000 Me, personally, I'm a flexitarian.
00:24:05.000 Yes.
00:24:06.000 Assalamualaikum.