Ali Dawah - October 06, 2019MEAT-EATER VS VEGAN - ANIMAL CRUELTY - SPEAKERS CORNER
Episode Stats
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Summary
In this episode, we discuss the controversial topic of whether or not it is necessary to eat animal products. We also talk about the difference between violence and compassion in regards to the treatment of animals, and the reasons why we should not kill them.
Transcript
00:00:07.000
Do you think there's any necessity to consume animal products?
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Do you think there's any necessity, in today's world, to buy meat or eggs or perry?
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Well look, I'm not knowledgeable on this matter, but like, obviously it's a source of protein.
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I try to cut down on weight myself, but you're vegan, you're not even vegetarian, you're vegan.
00:00:43.000
He's saying, you should not, would you like to?
00:00:46.000
So it is a source of protein, but once we establish that we can get that source of protein from somewhere else,
00:00:54.000
So my question to you is, are you against unnecessary violence?
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For example, violence obviously, human beings is different to an animal.
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I believe even animals should not be treated in a certain way.
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Because we know that the Prophet told us, the Prophet, peace be upon him, I'm a Muslim.
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He told us that there was a woman who tortured a cat.
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And because of her actions she was doomed to hellfire.
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And there was a prostitute woman who was walking past the well.
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And there was a dog who was about to die very first, yeah?
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And she got a shoe, put it down the well, and got water out for her.
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And God said that the Prophet said that her sins were forgiven, yeah?
00:01:44.000
So the thing is though, what it is, is that we have different extremes.
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So Jack, you might be coming from another extreme where you're just totally...
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Like, even when we believe in God, we have fear and hope.
00:02:03.000
You mentioned, sorry, you mentioned the, um, someone torturing a cat.
00:02:17.000
Because like we say, for example, snorting an animal, it's not...
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Because there's a necessity for it, which you believe it's not, yeah?
00:02:27.000
But you can tell me, okay, I can go and get that protein from God knows how many other places.
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But I can say to you, but I can get it from just that one meat instead of going to a different place, yeah?
00:02:35.000
So you can say, okay, to get the same protein...
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But, for example, to not eat it because of, I don't know what other reason that you deem
00:02:49.000
So an animal can die for a variety of reasons, yeah?
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So to us, for it to be done in a humane way, and that you don't go to the animal and kick
00:03:01.000
That's the reason why when you slaughter an animal in Islam, you should move away from
00:03:07.000
The definition of humane is to show compassion or benevolence.
00:03:11.000
So how do we compassionately kill an animal for a necessary reason?
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Like I said to you before, I believe there is a kind of a necessary need.
00:03:28.000
Sometimes you need to implement violence to bring peace.
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The police, for example, they would use their batons or whatever.
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But when it comes to you, they will use rubber bullets.
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And then people say, oh, okay, it's about to get real.
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So, like this whole thing of, you know, kumbaya and, you know, like, you know...
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But what peace does it bring to kill an animal?
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Number one, you don't have to torture an animal, yeah?
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Firstly, that's why we are told to sharpen the knife, yeah?
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So, you know, if we've got two, you know, chocolate veins, yeah?
00:04:21.000
I heard there's a recent study that says that vegans are more likely to have...
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Can I get a police officer for this knife, please?
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Do you affirm that, for example, our ancestors, yeah?
00:05:12.000
So what that means is now you're saying that in today's age we don't need it.
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So you wouldn't be here today if you didn't eat meat.
00:05:23.000
But I also wouldn't be here if you didn't rape other women.
00:05:39.000
Because we're going back thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of years.
00:05:45.000
No, my point is just because something happened in the past, that doesn't make it ethical today.
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Our ancestors needed to survive, so therefore it was ethical then.
00:05:58.000
In the same sense, killing another human can be justified in some context.
00:06:03.000
That doesn't justify it in the context where I don't need to.
00:06:06.000
Okay, but the thing is you're giving extreme examples.
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I'm talking about in general, maybe they got married and a variety of other reasons.
00:06:14.000
So the thing is though, I'm saying that to have meat, it's not an absolute...
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No Muslim will say to you, to be a Muslim you have to eat meat.
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But the issue is to condemn somebody that eats meat or to see them as barbaric, I would say that's wrong.
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But I'm not saying you're a bad person for consuming other products.
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Look, do you know there are some recent studies also show that plants have, like, they can sense pain as well.
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There's no research that, there's no evidence that plants can feel pain.
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There is, there is, there is some, I'll try to find it for you, but there is some evidence towards it.
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Would you agree that they are living, would you say they're not living?
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Okay, so then the point that comes to is this, yeah, is that I can come and use the same argument and be like, look, for example, the tomato, or for example, and you don't know.
00:07:06.000
If, let's say, arguments say, if science finds out that these tomatoes or these things actually feel pain, what does one do?
00:07:14.000
Because then it's going to come back to a necessity of, okay.
00:07:18.000
Imagine, imagine, if that was the case, you would probably, you might say, you can answer, you might say, you know what, when we eat the tomato, we'll, where does it feel pain?
00:07:25.000
Okay, when you cut in the middle, okay, we'll try to do it this way, so it's less painful.
00:07:28.000
So, as a Muslim, we say, we implement the same thing as, look, we see it as some kind of a necessity, not an absolute, and doing procedures in place, so the animal, you're not hitting it, etc.
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Let's say you're right, let's say all the plants are sentient beings, they feel pain, they want to live.
00:07:44.000
The thing is, the animals we eat, we are feeding with plants, so there are more plant deaths because we eat the animals, so we'd actually be using far less plants if you went vegan.
00:07:54.000
Okay, okay, good, very, very good point. But the issue with, my point is this, is that, to me, we live in a system where there's laws.
00:08:02.000
Yeah. Yeah? So, if those doors are in place, I can say, you know what, me, maybe I'm stepping on some kind of living particles here, let me not move.
00:08:09.000
Yeah. Yeah, let me not do nothing. Then, the reality kicks in, and then we need to say to ourselves, okay, look, we can combat animal cruelty.
00:08:18.000
I'll say, let's join forces, yeah? Like Allah says to us in the Quran,
00:08:23.000
come together against righteousness, yeah? Now, with this, we can define about, you know, are we coming together against oppression?
00:08:30.000
Yes, towards animals. We can come and join forces for that. But, what is our purpose? To lower, lessen the harm towards animals.
00:08:39.000
Being hid, pulled, stabbed, this is disgusting behaviour. And killed. No, no, see, that's different, yeah?
00:08:44.000
The, the, the example you used of... So, so, so, so, so, I think, don't you think, what was your name, sorry?
00:08:48.000
Jack. Jack, don't you think, the first step that we should take is this, animals are going to be slaughtered to be eaten.
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It's going to happen, yeah? It's going to happen. It doesn't have to. I know, but it's going to happen.
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It's going to happen. I think we should combat animal cruelty. Because this is, firstly, the first one we can argue with it,
00:09:04.000
we can debate with it, we can say, oh, necessity, but Allah...
00:09:06.000
How do you define cruelty? Yeah? How do you define that?
00:09:09.000
I, I, personally, if you ask me, I would say, erm, being harsh to, being harsh to any living being unnecessarily.
00:09:17.000
No, no, that's even wrong, because you can't...
00:09:19.000
I would include stabbing them in the throat for the necessary reason in that definition.
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Okay, cutting them in the throat for the necessary reason.
00:09:26.000
Okay, so, how would you, how would you do it? You just cut?
00:09:28.000
No, no, no, no, you have to, because the whole point behind it, we have a method of doing it, yeah?
00:09:31.000
The animal needs to be moved away from the other animals, because they don't want to, they don't want to see it. It's gruesome.
00:09:39.000
Because why do I need to cut a human being? For what reason?
00:09:50.000
Okay, he's, he's, he's, he's talking about animals.
00:09:55.000
So, under Islam, under Islam there's a halal ways of killing animals, right?
00:10:00.000
But there isn't a halal way of killing plants, right?
00:10:04.000
Okay, so, so for example, we haven't been told that, but even for us, we are told that even when you go to war, do not harm trees.
00:10:14.000
And the prophet said, in one of his hadith, the signs of the day of judgment, the signs of the end of the world, yeah?
00:10:21.000
He said that even if it's the day of judgment, if you're planting a plant, carry on.
00:10:30.000
So, it's important to do something for society, but we haven't been told directly, for example, that how you treat animals, I mean, plants.
00:10:42.000
Like, with us, we've been told animals, because, obviously, consume animals, and we consume fruit and vegetables as well, but we haven't been told that they have some kind of feelings or emotions.
00:10:51.000
And you already acknowledged the fact that the animals we eat are fed of plants, so you agree?
00:10:55.000
No, no, of course, I've accepted that, but what I'm coming back to is the reality that we live in.
00:10:58.000
Yeah, and you brought up the point that you could be hurting animals and creatures all the time without knowing.
00:11:04.000
So, if you accidentally walk on an insect, that's different morally to purposefully slit someone's throat.
00:11:10.000
But then what you need to do is then, does that mean that we go and kill the animals that eat the plants?
00:11:16.000
Like, because they're the ones killing, because you said, like, the animals are the ones who eat more vegetables.
00:11:27.000
No, because I don't believe that the plants are sentient beings.
00:11:30.000
Okay, if they did, then would it be fair for me to come and say, let's slaughter sheep more so they don't kill, they don't cause more...
00:11:37.000
It would make sense to stop breeding the sheep.
00:11:39.000
But then do we know what she told you to get rid of them?
00:11:42.000
Yeah, and if we do that, you see, the reality kicks in.
00:11:45.000
Listen, I understand where you're coming from. Don't get me wrong here.
00:11:47.000
I understand where you're coming from. You seem like someone that's caring.
00:11:49.000
Yeah, you've come here, you've done this. Why? Because you care for the animals.
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We care for the animals as well. We're just saying, can we have a middle ground?
00:11:57.000
Well, let's start off with stopping cruelty to animals, be it in the slaughterhouses or be it in general.
00:12:02.000
Because then once we come to obstacle, then at least there's less animal suffering.
00:12:09.000
Because we're not going to stop them. At least let's tell them...
00:12:14.000
Because it's a fine demand. The more we buy, the more they create.
00:12:17.000
But that's what I'm saying. As human beings, we're greedy people.
00:12:21.000
But you can stop your impact. You can leave here today and never exploit animals again by picking up vegan sausages rather than pig sausages.
00:12:30.000
I should sponsor this video. I'm telling you, I love it. It's absolutely amazing.
00:12:37.000
So why would we exploit animals when we have that clear alternative?
00:12:40.000
Look, it comes back to reality. These people... Like, it's good.
00:12:43.000
But you need to morally justify the behaviour of hurting animals.
00:12:46.000
No, no, 100%. But then again, I don't believe that doing it in a humane way, I believe it doesn't hurt an animal.
00:12:51.000
I believe if you sharpen the knife and do it as fast as possible, I believe...
00:12:55.000
Do you think the same thing could be said for a human, if I do a really sharp knife and slit the throat?
00:12:59.000
It might be. It's about science. For example, if I put you in a choco, or you put me in a choco, yeah?
00:13:05.000
And then, after a certain amount, I black out. Why? Because the blood doesn't go to the brain.
00:13:10.000
So is it ethical for me to slit someone's throat?
00:13:13.000
No, no, no. You're going to extreme. Why are you slitting the throat? For what purpose?
00:13:19.000
There's chicken, there's lamb, there's a lot of other reasons.
00:13:21.000
Do you get it? There's cannibalism. I'm saying there's a variety of options.
00:13:24.000
However, in the context of you're in a cave, yeah? You're going to die.
00:13:29.000
I'm saying, like, if I was going to kill someone now, say I killed someone of your friends.
00:13:36.000
But hypothetically, and I said, I used a sharp knife, they didn't feel a thing.
00:13:41.000
No, because you're taking the human life. For no reason, but just to...
00:13:46.000
Well, you could say taste, but what's the purpose of killing them?
00:13:49.000
Because I like the way they taste, that's the reason I'm doing it.
00:13:53.000
I just love the way they taste, I slid and throw, eat them.
00:13:55.000
Okay, I would say it's not justified, because a human and an animal is not the same.
00:13:59.000
Well, what's the difference that justifies that difference in treatment?
00:14:09.000
Well, you can say animals have families as well, etc.
00:14:11.000
But we're more intelligent, yeah, there's a lot of that we can do.
00:14:14.000
Do you think we should assign moral value based on intelligence?
00:14:17.000
So if you're more intelligent than me, should you be treated better than me?
00:14:22.000
If you're more intelligent than me, should you be treated better than me?
00:14:25.000
I'm saying, as human beings, we're not the same as animals.
00:14:29.000
To kill a human being, I wouldn't say it's the same as killing an animal.
00:14:34.000
You don't need to value the animal to the same value as human in order not to enslave them.
00:14:39.000
You just need to believe that the animal is worth more than your taste pleasure.
00:14:43.000
It's not just about taste, it's about survival as well.
00:14:47.000
Do you admit that you could leave here today and be vegan?
00:14:59.000
So for example, the last time you're telling me to live, can I live by it?
00:15:04.000
These are all the factors, but I don't know that.
00:15:08.000
So if you think about price, the cheapest foods in the supermarket, rice, beans, lentils,
00:15:18.000
So what I'm saying is that there's a whole commitment behind it.
00:15:22.000
But what I'm saying is that it goes back to, again, to have a fine balance.
00:15:27.000
I'm not coming to telling you that you have to be, to be a Muslim you have to eat meat.
00:15:33.000
Well, that's because my choice of being a vegan doesn't have a victim, or as yours does.
00:15:39.000
For example, if I opened up a decent research, I believe that plants do have...
00:15:42.000
But you're killing more plants than me by consuming...
00:15:45.000
No, no, the animals that we're eating is killing more plants.
00:15:48.000
Sure, but they're only there because we're breeding them.
00:15:52.000
But even if we didn't eat them, they still need to survive.
00:16:06.000
No, no, but if you do, that's oppression to them.
00:16:10.000
You take it away from them when you kill them after six months.
00:16:15.000
If you take them away from what they're eating because they're killing vegetables or whatever,
00:16:47.000
Because if vegetables have or plants have emotions and feelings, we're all dead.
00:16:58.000
If they do, Jack, that means we need to get rid of the sheep because the sheep are killing the vegetables.
00:17:03.000
We can't eat them because we don't want to hurt them.
00:17:15.000
What we do is we kill the least amount possible.
00:17:23.000
We stop breeding animals and eat the plants directly.
00:17:27.000
But see, that's again, you're still, the point comes to, you don't want to hurt anyone.
00:17:31.000
Now you're going against your principle with the lesser of two evils.
00:17:33.000
That's the scenario where we have to choose the lesser of two evils.
00:17:37.000
I know, but Jack, you see, this is where the survival kicks in and you're like, okay,
00:17:44.000
The best thing to do is to stop animal cruelty because-
00:17:50.000
But I'm saying, right now, breeding and killing them in a harsh, terrible way is not the same
00:17:59.000
In a dignified manner, when it comes to the slaughter, it is that moment of time of one
00:18:04.000
minute of, let's say, argument's sake, they feel pain.
00:18:07.000
Then, torturing them throughout their life, putting them in cages.
00:18:11.000
So I'm saying, the lesser of two evils for me and you to come together is to work on that.
00:18:17.000
It's either you live or you're dead, you can't eat plants.
00:18:20.000
We've got, give them terrible lives in cages, torture them and then kill them.
00:18:23.000
Then we've got the, the way we kill them after happy lives.
00:18:31.000
And then, at the moment of slaughter, you kill them.
00:18:33.000
Just the way, just the way, if we learn that the vegetables and plants have feelings,
00:18:37.000
that we're going to have to sacrifice and say, okay, the scientists, what's the fastest
00:18:51.000
But if all the vegetables and plants had feelings, we're all finished.
00:18:55.000
No, no, but, okay, well, they don't, but let's say they did.
00:19:05.000
Then we can't have that because we're going to harm them.
00:19:11.000
Then can we agree then, for example, if there is a certain necessity to have animals, can
00:19:23.000
No, I'm saying that there is absolutely no necessity.
00:19:27.000
The American Dietetic Association, the largest organization of nutrition experts in the world,
00:19:31.000
2016, they said that a vegan diet is healthy for all stages of life.
00:19:36.000
But the thing is that for us, if there is a necessity to eat meat,
00:19:45.000
And I also believe that you can justify violence to humans if it's a necessity.
00:19:52.000
So what you're against, I think what we're against is right.
00:19:54.000
Because even the Prophet, peace be upon him, he wouldn't have meat.
00:20:04.000
That the exploitation, the level that we're at, it's wrong.
00:20:08.000
So what we need to do is, that whatever necessitates, that should be done.
00:20:14.000
So if I was to show you that there was no necessity to consuming animals at all, would you-
00:20:19.000
You'll have to do that because there has to be studies.
00:20:23.000
So for example, I've tried a vegetarian diet and like sometimes I just feel like really
00:20:30.000
And even though I know there's some vegan trainers as well.
00:20:39.000
But the point what I'm saying is, yeah, it is, it's hypocrisy.
00:20:40.000
But what I'm saying is, is that look, it'll be oppression for me to go and force my way
00:20:48.000
We can say, look, exploitation, you don't have to have chicken every day.
00:20:56.000
We can do a certain amount and work our way down to slowing animal cruelty.
00:21:00.000
But the thing is with forcing people to do things, we should force people to do certain
00:21:06.000
I guess the better way of putting it is force people not to do certain things.
00:21:09.000
We try to force people, we try to force people not to abuse children.
00:21:13.000
We try to force people not to abuse dogs or kill dogs.
00:21:16.000
And I think we should also extend chickens, pigs and cows and force people not to exploit
00:21:22.000
We should force to minimize unnecessary killing of animals.
00:21:28.000
So as soon as you were to find that it's unnecessary to eat animals, you agree that it becomes a
00:21:38.000
But as a Muslim, I won't say that somebody is committing haram for eating meat.
00:21:50.000
So we can say as Muslims, have meat, it's better for you to have meat.
00:21:54.000
So for example, the Prophet, these people have said to us that there is disease in red meat.
00:22:03.000
So the Prophet will eat all kinds of food, dates and honey and all other kinds of stuff.
00:22:07.000
And then we need to talk about the factors, the harms that this may have to the bees when
00:22:17.000
But you said, we should only kill animals as much as is necessary.
00:22:25.000
We need to say, okay, 200 million animals should be killed, not 3 billion.
00:22:33.000
If you wish that you could live healthy for the rest of your life as a vegan...
00:22:37.000
I would do it, but I would not force someone else to do it.
00:22:43.000
My, hopefully, entrance to paradise is la ilaha illallah.
00:22:58.000
I might come back later after I finish recording it and talk about that.
00:23:03.000
Because at the end of the day, we're talking about being cruel to animals.
00:23:11.000
But we need to understand that as much as we care about the animals and their emotions,
00:23:16.000
We need to acknowledge that, obviously, if there's a higher intelligence, that he has rights as
00:23:21.000
And that we should try our best to obey his laws as well.
00:23:27.000
We're caring about the ants and everyone else, but the one who created the heavens and the earth
00:23:32.000
I think this is one of the most beautiful conversations I had in the past.
00:23:36.000
There's some health information on there, right?
00:23:38.000
I'll come back in a week and you'll be vegan and you can do the interviews with me.
00:23:57.000
As you can see, Bob and Sister, we're having beautiful discussions here in the park.