Ali Dawah - January 29, 2023SHOULD IN-LAWS GET INVOLVED？ EP 3 ｜｜ BITTER TRUTH SHOW
Episode Stats
Length
1 hour and 19 minutes
Words per Minute
205.5632
Summary
In this episode, we talk about the role of in-laws in marital disputes, gender roles, divorce, single life, and other controversial topics. We also have a very special guest, our very good friend, Gabriel Romani.
Transcript
00:00:00.000
Should in-laws get involved in marital disputes?
00:00:04.120
I think a lot of families are not actually equipped to deal with disputes.
00:00:09.360
I think that they will be quite judgmental and biased.
00:00:11.860
And I think you could say that in some cases it's actually haram to get them involved.
00:00:16.840
And the reality is, especially if you're even living with your in-laws,
00:00:19.640
it's hard for them to ignore and you can't really get away from it for them to actually see it.
00:00:23.260
So realistically, a lot of the times, you know, those are the only people that you can actually turn to.
00:00:28.780
They actually can see your mood when you're sitting on the table with them.
00:00:31.900
If I put a legal case on you that destroyed your life, for example,
00:00:35.960
I've accused you of violence, domestic violence.
00:00:39.660
And it's like you're staying pretty much for life.
00:00:41.460
The problem that I think we face a lot is, especially if you come from a South Asian background,
00:00:45.280
we have a very, very toxic culture, which teaches us that women should stay quiet.
00:00:58.780
IslamNet is raising funds to establish a masjid and community center in Norway,
00:01:15.080
because every person that comes a step closer to Allah through your donation,
00:01:21.820
Assalamualaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh, brothers and sisters and dear friends.
00:01:28.520
As you guys know, we speak about a variety of topics pertaining to gender roles,
00:01:32.240
divorce, marriage, single, Muslim looking to get married, and different topics.
00:01:39.540
We are not here to talk about certain matters just for the sake of it,
00:01:43.440
just for some views or just because they're controversial.
00:01:46.260
But we genuinely, well, I'll speak on my behalf,
00:01:49.680
but I also assume the best in the people that are here today,
00:01:52.260
is that we want the best, you know, for our brothers and sisters who are watching this.
00:01:57.280
please understand that it's not coming from a place of hate.
00:02:07.280
As you can see, I don't know if you can see, we've got four buzzers here.
00:02:09.980
Before I introduce this concept, the show is called Bitter Truth.
00:02:13.820
The four buzzers are here called Bitter Buzzers.
00:02:15.820
So the Bitter Buzzers are, that's, you know, it's going to be,
00:02:19.600
maybe it can turn a bit bitter, but the point is,
00:02:22.360
if you disagree with someone and every person in the panel
00:02:29.280
the person who's speaking finishes their sentence
00:02:30.860
and the person who's pressed the buzzer would have a minute and a half,
00:02:35.360
nobody interrupting them to express their counter-argument
00:02:44.060
or praise His glory and gratitude belong to Him.
00:02:46.140
And we ask Allah to make this beneficial, not only to us,
00:02:48.560
but for those who are watching at home, inshaAllah.
00:02:50.400
And that it helps the family units, which are already breaking down
00:02:52.820
and is attacking the nuclear family units as well.
00:03:00.880
Please tell us a bit about yourself, inshaAllah.
00:03:20.840
So, yeah, tell us a bit about yourself, what you do.
00:03:25.440
Bismillah, alhamdulillah, wa salatu salatu wa salatu wa salatu wa sallam.
00:03:31.860
I've been Muslim for about 20 years now, alhamdulillah.
00:03:35.140
And mostly I focus on counselling, mental health, relationships, and so on.
00:03:50.180
So, you're saying there's no, need no interrupt.
00:03:53.820
Usually it's customary for the host to, you know, introduce the guest.
00:03:58.400
So, the esteemed guest, the great honourable, also known as the learned one.
00:04:06.500
And our dear honourable sisters, may Allah bless them for being here.
00:04:09.560
They'll play a very important role in this discussion, inshaAllah.
00:04:12.680
Starting from sister, inshaAllah, if you can just introduce yourself.
00:04:18.920
I'm a mother of two and currently working as a nursery teacher.
00:04:27.240
I'm Ira Deen and a mother of one, currently divorced.
00:04:35.580
I'm Fahima Mohamed and I'm a broadcaster, also a life coach, NLP practitioner, CBT therapist.
00:04:45.200
Also currently studying my master's in the final stage of neuroscience and psychology of mental health.
00:04:50.960
And I do help people in the community, different backgrounds, male and female with regards to all kinds of issues and especially relationships and appear on several different TV channels, including mainstream and different sects and different backgrounds as well.
00:05:08.040
So try to represent within the community and outside the community, talking about social issues and relationship issues as well.
00:05:17.740
So I'm going to introduce a topic here at hand today.
00:05:20.880
But just so you guys are aware, this is what the buzzer sounds like.
00:05:23.240
So if you hear it, please finish your sentence and the person who's pressed it, give them the chance to speak or heard.
00:05:33.580
Should in-laws get involved in marital disputes?
00:05:43.300
We can talk about what kind of disputes we're talking about later, minor, major.
00:05:51.460
Do you believe that in-laws should get involved in every marital dispute?
00:06:06.460
Because Allah SWT tells us in the Quran about where and at what position do you choose an arbitrator from her family and from his family.
00:06:14.860
It's usually kind of like the late stage before you're about to separate, right?
00:06:20.420
And what happens today, what we see is that it's the first thing that people do, right?
00:06:24.360
As soon as there's an issue, mom, dad, this is what's happening.
00:06:29.680
And instead of solving problems, because obviously there's emotional attachments to each side, biases, people are going to make mistakes.
00:06:37.180
Because if I'm a father, if my daughter gets married to someone, most likely, if I'm not well-versed, if I'm not wise, and I don't understand the sharia and the procedures, I'm probably going to side with my daughter, isn't it?
00:06:58.040
But the bitter truth is that we shouldn't usually, yeah.
00:07:03.360
Do you think that in-laws should be involved from the very get-go, later stage, minor argument, major argument?
00:07:11.640
Where would you get your family or his family involved in a dispute?
00:07:16.920
Okay, well, my opinion, again, also differs because it depends on the actual dispute.
00:07:26.160
And I think a lot of families are not actually equipped to deal with disputes.
00:07:32.240
I think that they will be quite judgmental and biased.
00:07:35.040
And also, there's an effect of it coming back on them, even if the couple has resolved their issues, so that they will keep it in them.
00:07:42.560
And even if the couple wants to move forward, it will always be a reminder.
00:07:45.480
And unfortunately, with human mind and behavior, unless they are trained to be able to control themselves and not feel the need to interfere and remind them, they can actually push back the actual couple to resolve the issues.
00:07:59.180
And I think, again, like the brother mentioned, I think a lot of people are very judgmental and they're very protective as well.
00:08:07.640
So, I think it's best to even, if they can't resolve it between themselves, to seek an outside perspective, a professional or a wali or whatever it is that they started off with.
00:08:19.220
I personally think that it depends on your in-laws.
00:08:28.100
And it also depends on the situation you're in.
00:08:30.320
I would say don't get them involved unless it's something serious.
00:08:35.740
So, I can't speak on everyone, but I would say look at your in-laws.
00:08:45.880
But if you can resolve it between you, then obviously don't get them involved.
00:08:50.100
Adding on to what the sister said, it depends on the kind of relationships you have with them.
00:08:57.820
We've got his side, her side, and then the truth.
00:09:00.520
And the point is for all of us to work together to get to the truth, not be biased, not fight against each other.
00:09:06.620
As long as we can agree that we're all on that same page and that we have the best interests for one another, then I think you should.
00:09:12.520
But that's more at a later stage, definitely not in the early days.
00:09:17.320
So, like the sister said, there's his story, her story, and the truth.
00:09:21.700
But the sister said, or the brother said, they might say, this is my truth.
00:09:26.580
So, hijab, I don't know, like, you know, we speak to a lot of people, a lot of people come to us for advice.
00:09:31.360
What's your take on, like, in-laws getting involved?
00:09:34.140
Do you think they should get involved straight away at all?
00:09:37.600
I think that if we're speaking from an Islamic paradigm, that we have to kind of compartmentalize the situation.
00:09:45.100
And you can probably say that, you can rephrase the question, what is the hukum?
00:09:51.880
And I think you could say that, in some cases, it's actually haram to get them involved.
00:09:59.960
And I think that for you to have a successful Islamic marriage, you need to know which is which.
00:10:05.180
For example, in the haram cases, many men or women will speak with their parents about their apartment.
00:10:15.060
If, for example, a woman is complaining to her mum about her husband, or a man is complaining to his mother about his wife, because he's trying to placate them, for example.
00:10:25.660
The general ruling is that you're not allowed to speak about someone behind their back, for example.
00:10:30.440
So you're saying, I want to get my family involved.
00:10:32.380
But what you're actually doing is you're biting, you're backbiting your brother or your sister in Islam, and you're getting a major sin.
00:10:38.480
So that's a clear indication, or an example of when getting your family involved can be haram.
00:10:47.200
A situation where it's, for example, allowed would be if there's mutual consent between both parties, and you say, okay, I want to get this person involved.
00:10:59.580
وَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ شِخَاقِ بِأِنِهِمَا فَبَأَتُوا حَكَمٍ مِنْ أَهْلِي وَحَكَمٍ مِنْ أَهْلِهَا
00:11:04.000
You know, if you fear separation between them, then get someone from his family, someone from her family.
00:11:09.460
If you look at, if you pay attention to that verse, it's not speaking to the marriage, to the husband and wife.
00:11:18.500
It's not speaking to the husband and wife here, it's speaking to some other members of the community.
00:11:23.940
Because it's in the third person, not in the second.
00:11:27.720
وَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ شِخَاقِ بَيْنِهِمَا فَبَأَثُوا حَكَمٍ مِنْ أَهْلِهَا
00:11:31.300
وَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ أَهْلِهِ وَحَكَمٍ مِنْ أَهْلِهَا
00:11:39.160
For example, if there's an arbitrator, who, for example, both, because we know the story of Muhammad ﷺ and Aisha radiallahu anha,
00:11:45.640
where they're both kind of consulting with one another of who to bring to arbitrate between them.
00:11:51.100
And then, you know, he was suggesting names and then she would say no and yes and so on.
00:11:56.860
But anyway, she brought her father in and it was not a good idea for her because, I mean, the story is well known.
00:12:05.140
Well, so there were suggesting names and then she brought her father in and her father was very,
00:12:09.360
she was taking the Prophet ﷺ side to a very high degree.
00:12:12.380
So she thought maybe that the bias would be in her direction, but it was certainly not.
00:12:17.180
That's interesting because it goes back to what Gabriel said, because sometimes as fathers,
00:12:21.160
right-versed mothers, it's because it's our blood.
00:12:23.240
And we're talking about that iman is thicker than blood, that Abu Bakr al-Alaan actually is opposite.
00:12:30.860
So, I mean, the point I'm making with this is that it's, Ibn Kathir says the hakim, the arbitrator.
00:12:36.340
So in this case, we don't have a ruler or a judge, but let's say, for example, you have an arbitrator.
00:12:40.900
The arbitrator says, bring someone from his family, bring someone from him.
00:12:43.880
And the word in Arabic is hakamah, which really comes from the connotation of a hakim, a wise person.
00:12:49.120
You can't just bring anybody and it's not just necessarily the father and mother.
00:12:51.520
So the Quranic method on this issue is not bring the in-laws involved.
00:12:55.740
You just bring the person who you think in that family is most qualified.
00:13:04.540
Whoever you feel is, the continuation of the verses,
00:13:08.380
that if they want to, if they want to reconciliation, then Allah will make them successful.
00:13:18.380
So, you know, so, which means that you also, these two people have to want to reconcile with one another.
00:13:23.300
So I don't think that the issue of getting the in-laws involved, nowadays, a lot of divorces actually are predicated on that.
00:13:29.020
So the woman goes to her father and she starts mentioning certain things to him about the husband.
00:13:38.360
And so these kinds of things need to be kind of weighed up and thought about.
00:13:42.500
And you, Gabriel, and other people that do counseling probably know more than me.
00:13:47.400
So a lot of divorces, I'm guessing, are because of the in-laws' involvement.
00:13:51.520
And I feel that, therefore, the basic policy should be not to get them involved.
00:13:58.260
Well, I mean, unless it's a health and safety issue.
00:14:00.680
Or unless there's an arbitration, there's consent, and there is, you know, there's a whole deliberation process.
00:14:05.680
Like, in today's time, when you're talking about, for example, maybe life and death kind of situations, or maybe not to that extent, but you know what I mean.
00:14:13.460
But in today's time, bro, it's, I want to be careful.
00:14:17.640
I don't want to say people are snowflakes here because these things will happen.
00:14:20.620
But any little minute thing, like, do you see this?
00:14:26.980
Or, like, and then they want their parents involved.
00:14:35.500
I guess, as Mohammed said, it depends on what does it mean to get someone involved, right?
00:14:41.320
So, in most cases, the wife will go to her mother, her father, and start complaining about the husband.
00:14:53.820
Which, obviously, is going to be back, but actually, you're not getting them involved as a hacking, but you're just basically going behind and complaining.
00:15:03.920
And, obviously, these people are not going to get the full picture.
00:15:06.560
One rule of thumb counseling is that you can never, ever just take one side or just listen to one argument.
00:15:15.740
He said, I can't remember, is that, you know, a person which you see is that if he's got a judgment, is that he doesn't come and hear one side.
00:15:25.780
Yeah, it's like, I was speaking to Sheikh Aitam about this, and Sheikh Aitam would, you know, he would say he had to, like, train himself to do this in the context of, that you would have a sister come in and she's crying.
00:15:34.840
Like, I'll be honest, like, I've had situations like that, similar, and I'm just like, oh my gosh, like, this, this, this, this, this, who is this, like, who is this guy?
00:15:42.020
And then, and then Sheikh Aitam goes, and you go and speak to the husband, and vice versa, vice versa.
00:15:46.780
As long as the husband comes and he makes it out to be like, the wife is this, and you speak, and you're like, I don't know, you didn't tell me about this, and you didn't tell me about that, and you were saying this, but there was context behind it.
00:15:54.820
I would say in about 80% of the cases, the story can change anywhere from 90 degrees to 180 almost, you know what I mean, the other way.
00:16:03.380
It's when you listen to the other side as well.
00:16:05.060
And then you'll ask, like, why don't you say this?
00:16:13.220
I'm like, no, no, but you don't understand what you've caused now.
00:16:18.280
And in the moment, you know, and you're talking here about not just someone's upset, family's angry.
00:16:24.720
You're talking about here police cases, legal issues, right, custody of children.
00:16:29.900
So when Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala tells us about this procedure, right, a lot of people, they want to follow the procedures of the Quran and sunnah when it suits them.
00:16:40.820
When it doesn't suit them, right, then they'll follow other procedures.
00:16:46.640
People don't realize it until it actually happens.
00:16:48.620
When it happens, it's very hard to go back and fix things.
00:16:51.680
If I put a legal case on you that destroyed your life, for example, I've accused you of, today I was speaking to a case.
00:16:59.900
I've accused you of violence, domestic violence.
00:17:04.500
And it's like you're staying pretty much for life.
00:17:06.900
Like, for example, in Canada, you can't get a job anymore.
00:17:10.380
The guy's like, he's had a master's, he's spent his whole life in IT, senior, right?
00:17:15.240
And all of a sudden, now you can't get a job in a school, bro.
00:17:20.100
I've heard, and there's actually next month, we've got a couple, two brothers coming who went through a divorce.
00:17:27.420
And they were, the sisters stopped them from seeing the kids.
00:17:31.660
And not only that, one of them actually had a hidden camera where she testifies to falsely accusing him of rape.
00:17:38.820
And she actually says it on camera that, yeah, I was just, it wasn't true.
00:17:44.540
These are fathers actually battling to see their kids as well.
00:17:47.180
This is, we need to raise awareness that this is next month, inshallah.
00:17:53.980
I don't know if you guys have heard of experiences.
00:17:59.940
When would you say, do you agree with the brothers about, you know, maybe getting them involved later on?
00:18:05.720
And Hijab did mention that in some instances it can be haram.
00:18:07.700
So, maybe we can maybe just understand a bit better because if the sister's going genuinely and the husband has said something which is true.
00:18:18.080
But what's your take on it with the experience that you've had?
00:18:19.900
I mean, it's great to have all of that sort of, you know, said in a particular way.
00:18:25.420
And the reality is, especially if you're even living with your in-laws, it's hard for them to ignore.
00:18:29.380
And you can't really get away from it for them to actually see it.
00:18:31.780
So, realistically, a lot of the times, you know, those are the only people that you can actually turn to.
00:18:38.100
They actually can see your mood when you're sitting on the table with them.
00:18:41.880
So, we've got to be realistic about this kind of things.
00:18:44.100
And at the same time, maybe your parents are the only ones or the in-laws that you can turn to in those extreme circumstances.
00:18:49.920
Because I've had loads of cases of abuse where they had to flee from the house and they had to have the people involved in the house in order to do that.
00:18:56.580
So, as much as we say what we say and we have all the rulings, reality, unfortunately, does not show that.
00:19:02.720
And there is no leader or arbitrator, whatever you want to call it, that's actually there to stand up for Muslim men and women, and especially women.
00:19:10.740
And the men's side is always taken first, even in divorce.
00:19:22.100
Well, most of the sheikhs, they find it very difficult.
00:19:39.700
So, the ruling you've got, I'm going to give you a good one and a half minute to express.
00:19:46.760
A lot of the sheikhs or imams are not necessarily on the side of the women, especially when it comes to divorce,
00:20:01.540
Well, I've been coaching for seven years, and I would say 90% of it.
00:20:05.740
I would say that a lot of the imams, especially in the last 10 years,
00:20:11.000
be it America, Canada, because of the rise of feminism and the change in the dynamics,
00:20:18.160
cultural dynamics, I'd say guys now are very, very afraid to rule on behalf of the men.
00:20:23.800
I mean, it's most likely they're leaning towards women.
00:20:27.640
And not just only in Muslim counseling, but non-Muslim counseling.
00:20:31.540
Usually now, people are leaning mostly towards the women because of a lot of the accusations
00:20:37.340
I mean, men have kind of been stained in the past, I would say, two decades.
00:20:41.560
And a lot of guys are very, very careful now to not rule.
00:20:44.800
It's almost like an affirmative action or, you know, kind of overcompensating on the other side.
00:20:52.640
In the UK, there's a problem with Hulak, women finance.
00:20:59.240
Like, for example, the Hulak councils are not that many.
00:21:05.580
But in the UK, we're kind of on the other side of the extreme.
00:21:14.260
Yeah, it's difficult to get a Hulak for a woman in the UK.
00:21:20.580
But it's, like, for example, what I'm comparing it with is the Muslim countries.
00:21:24.180
Like, for example, if a woman wants to get a Hulak in Egypt or Morocco, it's much easier
00:21:30.960
Yeah, but is there a reason why the scholars are refraining from giving the Hulak?
00:21:37.500
In London, there's 1 million people, for example.
00:21:41.360
And when the Hulak cases happen, there's only, like, two or three major councils.
00:21:47.440
And there's a bit of a problem with authority as well.
00:21:49.180
Okay, so where to go is different to not being given.
00:21:53.220
For instance, like, you know, the Sharia Council, the main one of Shahid and Haddad, the average
00:21:58.680
waiting time for a woman to get a Hulak is a very long time.
00:22:00.940
Like, more than what would be usually the case in...
00:22:03.400
But that's because of the supply and demand issue, not that...
00:22:08.080
Because what Sina Fahim is saying is that there's a favouritism going on.
00:22:14.840
We have to look at that because a lot of these Sharia Councils, we have to look at things
00:22:21.240
For example, the one in London, I'm not saying there's favouritism, but there's a lot of
00:22:27.200
There's a lot of complaints and we kind of have to look at that.
00:22:29.640
Well, the imams, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but the imams, unfortunately, they may know
00:22:33.060
the deen, but they don't know the counselling and human mind and behaviour as well.
00:22:36.280
So they also need to be understanding of how to actually coach or understand, you know,
00:22:47.840
Because I have a lot of shikhs and imams, you know, recommend me to help them throughout
00:22:53.200
their sessions or afterwards with their people, right?
00:22:59.240
And the authority as well, it's very much here and there, which community you belong
00:23:03.760
If you know them very well, they're not going to go and actually, you know, give that
00:23:07.440
divorce to that particular family because they're close to that shikh and imam.
00:23:15.340
So we are talking about divorce, but let's get back to marital disputes and in-laws getting
00:23:20.820
You should be a little bit quiet, maybe if there's anything you want to say.
00:23:23.900
But getting in-laws involved, at what stage do you believe or at any stage?
00:23:31.660
For me personally, like if I have a marriage dispute that's severe, they have like in my
00:23:38.760
So by the elders, I don't mean your direct in-laws, but the oldest person in that community
00:23:42.880
because they tend to be wiser and they tend to have dealt with cases or dealt with situations
00:23:49.820
So kind of you get with the elder and they will discuss, you know, how to resolve this.
00:23:56.000
I feel like the only reason that a woman would go to someone else is because she just wants
00:24:03.740
I don't think she would just go for the sake of backbiting or for the sake of, you know,
00:24:08.300
I think it would be a genuine need for her to go to talk to someone to kind of resolve
00:24:12.660
Or maybe there's something that her husband's doing and she doesn't want to expose him.
00:24:15.840
And the, you know, the other option would be to go to someone that already knows him.
00:24:19.300
So I think it's fine, but there's a, there's a, only if there's a need, not just for the
00:24:24.560
sake of talking or backbiting or, and I don't think it's a good idea to go to the mothers
00:24:31.720
So I guess it comes down to intention as well, because if you're going to your parents,
00:24:36.560
so you can backbite or in other words, release it, but not necessarily fix it or change your
00:24:47.660
You need to have that trust in that elder, whether it's your mother-in-law or even far
00:24:55.660
It could be anybody that's older than you who has the same intention, which is to make
00:25:00.780
The problem that I think we face a lot is, especially if you come from a South Asian
00:25:04.700
background, we have a very, very toxic culture, which teaches us that women should stay quiet
00:25:16.280
And that's really not the case because now that we've figured out that as women, we have
00:25:21.000
a voice and we don't have to stay in a abusive relationship, when we do go to these elders,
00:25:26.460
they're not from our generation, nor would they understand it.
00:25:29.500
So their advice is what they would have done in their time.
00:25:32.840
So we have to make sure that when we are listening to the elders or whoever may it be, we have
00:25:37.800
to extract what is beneficial for us today and what is relatable for us.
00:25:42.180
And that's going to help us today to fix our marriage, not what worked for them back in
00:25:46.580
Because if you want your marriage to work, you will try all means.
00:25:50.060
It won't just be, oh yeah, I went to my mother-in-law.
00:25:54.420
At the end, you will go to marriage counseling.
00:25:58.200
A lot of these problems arise because of a trauma within ourselves.
00:26:01.180
It's not necessarily because he's our foe and it's just him.
00:26:03.860
It's how we behave and our reaction to maybe something that he may have done.
00:26:12.980
Because I didn't address the first part of what you said before, which was about the
00:26:18.240
And you were talking about your parents are maybe the only people they can turn to, etc.
00:26:23.180
And then you talk about abuse and all this kind of thing.
00:26:24.960
I think it's really important to unpack all this stuff.
00:26:27.420
In the first instance, when you said that, well, it could be backbiting.
00:26:31.300
But then at the same time, like, you know, your parents are the only people they can turn to.
00:26:37.220
You know, there are usul principles, which are basically the principles of jurisprudence,
00:26:41.980
for like, example, I did mention in the initial articulation that one of the exceptions would
00:26:49.220
So if we put that to the side for a second and consider the hukum or the ruling, because
00:26:53.700
if we start speaking in a sense, in a way which can undermine the rulings of Islam, then it
00:27:00.600
can be problematic in the sense that we say, well, in reality, these rulings are not actually
00:27:06.640
So if we speak like that, then in a sense, it can be problematic in a sense that, okay,
00:27:10.260
well, I have the golden ticket that I can do whatever I want because I've got trauma.
00:27:14.620
And then it becomes a self-flaggrating endeavor.
00:27:17.260
No one can hold anyone else to account, let alone themselves to account.
00:27:21.300
So there has to be a level of self-reflection, self-accountability, especially vis-a-vis the
00:27:28.860
So with, for example, the ruling of backbiting, the asal of it is that it's haram.
00:27:36.160
Like, you know, and the Prophet ﷺ told us what it is.
00:27:38.380
He says that it's dhikrika akha ka li ma akrahum, that you mention about your brother
00:27:42.380
and obviously your sister as well, that which they would hate, that which they would dislike.
00:27:47.300
So, for example, now going back to the issue of a man going to his mum or a woman going
00:27:52.080
to her mum, for example, and speaking about in intimate detail the stuff that's going on
00:27:58.820
Now, there's not enough evidence in Islam to say that, well, actually, she can do that
00:28:03.640
because, quote, unquote, she's the only person that can turn to.
00:28:08.900
Yes, but if there's harm, there's qawait, there's adoratubihan makhvurat, you know,
00:28:13.040
things which cause harm can make something halal or haram halal and stuff like that.
00:28:18.380
But if there's no actual physical harm, going and speaking about your partner, you know,
00:28:23.380
to your parents and stuff like this with the excuse of, okay, I'm going to try and heal
00:28:29.420
my traumas or whatever it may be, quote unquote.
00:28:33.840
Yeah, because that's why I said, because a lot of them, or generally all of us, don't
00:28:37.640
know our deen in order to be able to do what you just said.
00:28:44.600
And so they just think, like you mentioned it as such a big word, backbiting, they wouldn't
00:28:47.840
even look at it as backbiting, talking about their own husband, just expressing what's
00:28:59.280
And then you spoke about the imams not being qualified.
00:29:06.540
The problem is, when we're dealing with such a deep issue, is that the frame that we're
00:29:16.580
We don't live in a place where you can actually go to a Qadi and a judge, right?
00:29:21.960
So a lot of times our problems that we're discussing here, you have the issue of being
00:29:29.660
And as you said, you cannot say, well, you know, it's not really working.
00:29:37.880
A lot of our problems when it comes to marriage, divorce, women being divorced.
00:29:40.800
A lot of times women being divorced, they'll say, we get thrown to the curb.
00:29:44.060
In Islamic State, the Amir is responsible for the um.
00:29:47.580
Because they'll say, well, we don't have anyone.
00:29:54.040
I'm like, no, it doesn't really work like that.
00:29:58.100
How many revert sisters leave Islam because they get divorced and they see a bad example
00:30:08.500
You know, the, the, uh, uh, Sanduq, you know, Zawaj or Sanduq, I mean, uh, Baitul Ma'ala
00:30:15.760
would basically be, uh, taking care of her and all that.
00:30:20.700
We're talking here about living in America, UK, US, Canada, whatever.
00:30:25.960
A lot of these problems are because of the frame that we're within.
00:30:29.720
Um, I think obviously it's not part of our discussion, but just to remind our brothers
00:30:35.580
and our sisters that you can't fix one wrong with another.
00:30:40.260
You know, you can't say, well, Islamic rules are not really applicable right now.
00:30:43.600
The, the, the imams and the, the, uh, you know, are not really qualified to understand
00:30:53.720
So counselors with imams training, we need to work on that to be able to fix it.
00:30:58.660
You're not going to fix the problem by like, God, just come to me.
00:31:00.900
I'm the one that's qualified or, you know, I know exactly, cause I've been through it.
00:31:04.140
A lot of the problems with counselors and I don't know.
00:31:09.900
I mean, in my experience, in my experience with, with sister counselors is that we have
00:31:15.520
been divorced and they go into counseling and coaching because they've experienced
00:31:21.420
I always say to sisters, don't go to a divorced sister for advice because it shows up.
00:31:36.620
Just because she's been, go to a sister who has, was able to overcome the problem and
00:31:44.800
Then you get advice about divorce, about marriage.
00:31:47.120
Someone who has, was succeeded or succeeded in that, in that area.
00:31:52.960
Sister Fima, you have, you have one and a half minutes starting now.
00:31:58.000
Well, firstly, I think when you are trained, regardless of anything, even if you're not
00:32:05.760
divorced, you won't be able to give the right sort of advice.
00:32:09.040
And firstly, counselors and coaches do not give advice.
00:32:11.960
They give guidance and they use technical, you know, psychological strategies and tools
00:32:16.460
and open up so that every case is for that particular person.
00:32:19.700
And I really don't believe that anyone should be giving any advice to anyone based on their
00:32:27.680
Because if you are in a professional way, that would never happen anyway.
00:32:31.120
So you just got to make sure that they are trained.
00:32:33.680
And I've come across many couples who have gone through exactly what I've gone through,
00:32:38.900
But I've actually taken sort of much more insight into the opposing sort of partner, like the
00:32:45.920
male, which you wouldn't expect from someone like me if you knew my background story, only
00:32:50.060
because I'm professional and I'm trained, even though I'm divorced and I'm single.
00:32:54.260
And at the same time, if you really have that mindset of understanding your professional
00:32:59.560
way, then don't make these sort of statements about don't go to somebody who's divorced.
00:33:04.120
And I don't believe you should go to somebody who's divorced, who hasn't healed, but definitely
00:33:08.500
go to a professional who is trained, accredited, and don't judge them for who they are.
00:33:14.060
Because again, a lot of women get judged on that particular way for being divorced and,
00:33:18.500
you know, they are not actually healed or they can't give the right advice.
00:33:26.900
I was given my opinion, what I've experienced, what I've seen from my counselling.
00:33:31.140
Of course, two different counsellors are going to have different experiences as well.
00:33:37.980
Obviously, no counsellor is ma'asum, you know, infallible.
00:33:42.180
That's something we have to keep in mind, just because you're trained does not mean that
00:33:48.460
So it's a fallacy to believe that just because I have the qualifications, I'm not going to
00:33:53.720
So obviously, you're going to look at the track record of that person, what's come out of
00:33:57.960
that, how many, you know, cases, the reviews and all that, right?
00:34:04.080
In my experience, a lot of the sisters who have gone through female counsellors, they
00:34:09.860
And this is by Allah, I'm quoting what they say.
00:34:15.260
I would say it's basically females are going to project their own issues onto our issues
00:34:21.800
and we'd rather hear from a man or take a man's approach onto this issue.
00:34:30.320
And by Allah, I'm saying that this is my experience.
00:34:33.520
And it's not one case or it's not istifna or exception.
00:34:42.060
The thing is, yes, it's important because I'll be honest with you, like one of the
00:34:45.020
reasons, one of the reasons I set up the show is because I genuinely, sometimes I want
00:34:54.580
They would come and maybe a male counsellor would say, you know, let me speak to a female
00:35:00.340
Just, I know I'm the host here, but I have, you know, sometimes I talk too much on the
00:35:06.100
But what I say I want to give you based on experience, I've seen people and I would, I genuinely
00:35:11.920
believe this would make me benefit, inshallah, people, yeah.
00:35:14.460
Is like, for example, I'm just in double minds.
00:35:20.420
I'm just, I'm just going to say it on the sake of Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala, yeah.
00:35:27.160
So sometimes we have arguments, arguments are normally a part of marriage.
00:35:30.620
Sometimes if I get into a marital dispute with my wife, yeah.
00:35:33.880
My mom would come and say to me, for example, what happened?
00:35:42.700
And wallahi, I tell my mom, I go, mom, you're me and my wife.
00:35:48.680
You're brought up a medal for that one, brother.
00:35:53.820
Because my mom will come and say, you know, what kind of last time are you?
00:35:57.900
And I go, mom, do you know why I don't actually, yeah?
00:36:00.840
Because the thing is here, arguments, let's suppose arguments say, my wife did something
00:36:05.860
Me telling my mom that, do you think my mom's going to be like, oh, our relationship is going
00:36:11.640
And I say that, me and my wife, and I tell this to many people as well, that to have
00:36:15.280
this principle, never, ever, unless it's like, oh, I don't know, I took a gun out towards
00:36:19.760
my wife, or, you know, there was a sword involved, or something like this, yeah?
00:36:28.760
Petty arguments, whatever it may be, wife can get upset, the husband can get upset, make
00:36:38.920
Because the moment you say that, argument said, if my wife goes and says, and he said
00:36:42.400
this, and he upset me, do you think her mom's going to be like, my mother's going to be
00:36:45.240
like, oh, I increased their love towards my son-in-law more?
00:36:48.740
She's going to be like, why is he making my daughter upset?
00:36:49.920
If I go to my mom, and I say to my mom, you know, my wife did this, and this stuff, why
00:36:55.480
The problem is you're self-sabotaging now, and you're ruining that relationship.
00:37:00.460
That is one perspective, but I believe, genuinely, the moment the in-laws start getting, like,
00:37:06.640
towards the daughter-in-law, or to the son-in-law, from there, it's chaos.
00:37:11.080
I'll just want to add one, maybe just a theoretical point, since I haven't been in the fields of
00:37:16.580
counselling, as you guys have, or many of you have, which is that it just makes sense
00:37:21.160
on a theoretical level, just to think that, or if you love someone more, which, romantic
00:37:25.620
love is a very powerful thing, now, if the husband and wife love each other quite a lot,
00:37:29.060
or they have love for each other, now, if there's a fallout, they're more likely, this
00:37:34.980
is just me thinking, to forgive each other afterwards.
00:37:41.160
But that level of romantic love that a partner has for the other partner, the husband
00:37:45.340
for the wife, and vice versa, is unlikely to be had by the in-laws.
00:37:50.320
So when the fallout happens now, you might have forgiven your wife, or you might have
00:37:55.820
forgiven your husband, but we don't know if your in-laws have forgiven them.
00:38:00.260
They're not going to, and that's why in my country, they say that when the wife and
00:38:03.520
her husband argues, don't get involved, because you know why?
00:38:10.020
I was back in your corner, and now you switch on.
00:38:16.540
Or like, and you're like, no, no, no, that was the magic in your back in your corner.
00:38:24.200
Like, when I mean, like, to be honest, like, I don't really, like, when it comes to my dad,
00:38:31.480
But like, when it comes to my mom, my mom, like, for something like, okay, oh, you look
00:38:36.900
It's something, and I'm like, mom, don't worry.
00:38:38.400
It's not that deep, because to me, I can, it's my wife.
00:38:42.760
But if I tell her, like I said before, it's just going to be like, oh, what did she do
00:38:49.420
So personally, I would say, unless it's something really, where you're like, you know what?
00:38:56.760
And we know, obviously, sisters can be more emotional, yeah?
00:38:59.760
That's, you know, if there's any families watching this, that's a reality.
00:39:03.040
Yes, the left side of the brain and the right side of the brain operates differently
00:39:12.260
So the point is, and sometimes sisters tend to initiate divorce more, 70% to 80%.
00:39:17.640
If she's earning more than her husband, it goes to 80%, yeah?
00:39:23.900
So from that angle, you know, the wife might say something.
00:39:27.740
But I think with the genders, it might differ slightly.
00:39:29.740
Because when I was married, if I was to go to my mom, she'd still take my husband's
00:39:40.920
And she's like, you calm yourself down, Fahima, this whatever it is.
00:39:44.940
This is a mother-in-law that everyone should have.
00:39:54.300
You know, my statement, hijabs, whatever, Gabriel.
00:39:58.500
Do you know, you said, my dear sister, what was your name?
00:40:02.000
Sister Aya, you said that, you mentioned it, that you got divorced.
00:40:08.060
Obviously, I don't want to get personal, but is there an experience?
00:40:10.020
Maybe it could be by your friends, getting in-laws involved.
00:40:17.240
Um, again, what I say is just based on my case.
00:40:23.900
And I think it was actually one of the reasons why our divorce did happen.
00:40:28.580
But at the same time, I think I just want everyone to remember that just because they're
00:40:34.920
your elders and they have more knowledge, it doesn't mean that they are necessarily right.
00:40:39.120
And it doesn't mean that you have to believe and act upon 99% of their words.
00:40:47.240
Everywhere around us, we've got marriage counselors, we've got therapists, we've got
00:40:52.520
You have to find your way through this and you have to extract what's beneficial for you.
00:41:00.500
And maybe you just needed that nudge to forgive him.
00:41:02.980
Maybe if you had resulted to look in Google or social media, a lot of us now travel to,
00:41:12.040
Like Ali said, if it's something small, try to forgive him and go down.
00:41:17.020
On that route rather than calling up your mom or your dad and getting their opinion of it.
00:41:26.640
But getting the information from all sources, not just one thing.
00:41:32.920
Because even though you might go to a marriage counselor, they're not going to have all the answers for you.
00:41:38.800
Because your case is unique to you and your opinion, your childhood, your upbringing, your family.
00:41:44.780
So learn to extract what works for me from all the resources around you before you give up on that marriage.
00:41:55.360
This whole elder framework, I'm not really privy to it.
00:41:58.900
Like I just go into the elders and stuff like that.
00:42:01.740
It's not really something we maybe do in our culture as much as the subcontinent.
00:42:08.300
I was reading Jordan Peterson's book, actually, of all books.
00:42:15.580
And at the end of that book, he was speaking in detail about negotiating with your partner and stuff like that.
00:42:21.720
What I found interesting is that he was like, you know, he was saying that you need to be able to negotiate and flesh these things out, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:42:31.940
Now, the issue of tradition is people have found ways to make things work for thousands of years.
00:42:39.120
People have found ways to make things work for thousands of years.
00:42:44.620
We have, I don't know what the subcontinent tradition looks like.
00:42:47.300
The elders, they kind of know how to resolve issues.
00:42:50.280
Now, the issue is when people try and reinvent the wheel in the age of social media, if you get someone trying to reinvent the wheel.
00:43:14.420
So, you have to kind of, yes, on the one hand, there is a limitation, a clear limitation with the elder framework, whatever that may be.
00:43:20.640
But there's also a very major limitation with the new modern framework as well, the social media framework, the antidepressants.
00:43:27.280
What I think people need to realize is that everyone has an agenda and everything has assumptions.
00:43:33.040
So, for example, when someone is doing counseling, and if they're doing psychoanalytic counseling, for instance, Freudian psychoanalytic type counseling, or talking therapy, or these kind of things, there is an assumption here.
00:43:46.200
And quite frankly, I think some of it is problematic from a science perspective.
00:43:52.520
But, for instance, the psychoanalytic framework, one of the things that they assume, there's kind of like a moral ambiguity.
00:44:01.200
In fact, it's inappropriate for them to tell you what's right and wrong.
00:44:03.780
I think this, you know, for example, this was, if you look at, in famous, in culture, there was just the Sopranos.
00:44:19.540
There's a man going to, like, a woman, and she was, you know, giving him advice and so on.
00:44:24.260
And at one point, and this, I watched it some time ago, like the 90s or something, I don't know when it came out.
00:44:30.580
But there was one particular episode, which was very interesting, and I still remember, where they were criticizing the counselor system by saying, this is like a moral relativism.
00:44:40.340
You can't tell, I mean, one guy was speaking to the counselor, the woman that was speaking to Tony, the mafia leader.
00:44:47.300
And he was saying, you can't even tell him that what you're doing is morally wrong.
00:44:51.680
So, when you go to a counselor, you're not going to expect the counselor to tell you, look, what you're doing is haram.
00:44:58.900
Now, another thing I'd add to that is, so, moral guidance and psychospiritual development are inextricably linked.
00:45:05.320
What counseling does is it actually separates them, which is a very dangerous thing from our perspective, because it can lead to moral relativism.
00:45:11.940
Another thing I'd add to that is, actually, it can be detrimental in so much as it can make you blame your parents, especially counseling in the UK.
00:45:20.200
I know in any kind of psychoanalysis, if you've studied it on a theoretical level, you'll know that psychoanalysis, quite frankly, it traces everything back to your upbringing.
00:45:30.620
So, we've heard the buzz term, daddy issues, for example, in the popular culture.
00:45:38.600
Because it's based on psychoanalytic assumptions.
00:45:42.900
Oh, it's probably because she has some daddy issues.
00:45:46.500
The reason why they're saying that is because the assumption of Freudian psychoanalytic frameworks is that most of your traumas can be traced back to something that's happening in your early life.
00:46:00.380
It's not something you can say is true or isn't true.
00:46:03.860
Everything is an assumption when it comes to science.
00:46:08.740
The difference between something which is verifiable from the scientific method and an assumption of it.
00:46:15.040
It's an assumption of something which is used to prove a point rather than something which is improved from the scientific method.
00:46:20.720
So, I mean, sorry to say, but you're saying it's true.
00:46:24.260
It's kind of the theoretical underpinnings of psychoanalysis might be kind of ambiguous to yourself in the sense that, for example,
00:46:31.940
Karl Popper, famous, he died in 1994, he propounded falsification, one of the things which are now cornerstone of the scientific method.
00:46:41.580
He referred to the whole venture of psychology as a pseudoscience.
00:46:46.040
It doesn't even meet the threshold of natural sciences.
00:46:49.560
So, psychoanalysis is just one school of thought within psychology.
00:46:53.520
And so, to say something that's fully true is not plausible from a scientific perspective.
00:46:57.820
Absolutely. It's only from certain amounts of research and it might apply to a certain group of people.
00:47:03.820
Let me just finish the point because there's a bit more answer to add to this, which is that when you do the psychotherapy, like talking therapy and these kind of things here,
00:47:11.060
a lot of people come out of it hating their parents.
00:47:13.280
Why? Because it was your dad's fault that that happened.
00:47:18.240
From an Islamic perspective, this penting up of resentment to your parents is more dangerous sometimes than it is beneficial.
00:47:25.540
Because for us, one of the apex moralities is that you're meant to be good to both of your parents.
00:47:31.160
So, if you go to a counsellor and they say, well, what happened when you were eight years old, nine years old?
00:47:36.460
So, then you start to shift blame, if you like.
00:47:42.420
And it didn't say some that would live, you know.
00:47:43.920
So, in summary, therefore, I'll say that psychoanalysis or talking therapy is just one methodology of psychology.
00:47:53.120
There's the CBT method that they use also in the NHS, the cognitive behavioral therapy method.
00:48:00.160
I'm not saying there's no truth in any of them.
00:48:02.100
I'm just saying we have to be skeptical of all of them.
00:48:08.180
I think one very observable phenomenon that we can see is we have a lot of psychologists, psychiatrists, counselors, coaches, you name.
00:48:19.720
They've increased a lot, wouldn't you agree, over the last decade or so.
00:48:33.380
The Muslim community, they hardly seek most of these things.
00:48:38.020
We have to understand there's going to be a very close, there's a correlation between the non-Muslims and the Muslims.
00:48:43.980
The Muslims, indeed, we follow within a few years behind most of the things.
00:48:51.260
So, to refer to established causation, we would need some additional.
00:48:59.780
But, just on an observable term, we see that there's been a lot of Muslim counselors, let's say within the Muslim community.
00:49:10.340
A lot of Muslim coaches, counselors, and so on.
00:49:20.460
Yet still, a lot of problems are still taking place.
00:49:25.980
A lot of talaq, a lot of issues are still taking place.
00:49:31.460
My argument would be this, and I agree with you, is that looking at most of the counselors, they have gone through CBT training.
00:49:49.360
Because the ones that I know, the ones that I do, it's not.
00:49:52.440
Or they will put, they will filter the Islamic paradigm through a secular paradigm as opposed to the other way around.
00:50:03.660
You're going there to help, and it's going to end your marriage further.
00:50:06.100
But I think the other point is a lot of people go seeking counseling and marital sort of like coaches is because it's right at the end of that relationship anyway.
00:50:14.600
So that's the other reason why it does fail, because they're actually already resenting each other, and they think this is my last resort.
00:50:20.660
And I always advise them, as soon as you feel that you're just tolerating your relationship and it's not that great, that's when you see them.
00:50:26.100
And that's where some of these therapies and things can work.
00:50:29.180
And there's a lot of fraud around it and fake coaches and counselors or whatever they may be as well, not particularly aligned with Islam or even the training itself.
00:50:38.920
But I really do think that people talk to people professionally when they're actually at the last end of it.
00:50:44.720
I disagree with that a little bit, because just taking my friend as an example, she's been married for four years.
00:50:56.160
I mean, but ever since they had a baby, it's affected their relationship.
00:51:01.480
And she would often come to me for advice, and I would help her, and it would be beneficial advice because I don't want to break a home.
00:51:09.020
So she obviously didn't want to go to her in-laws nor to her family or to her sisters.
00:51:14.140
So she decided, I'm going to get marriage coaching.
00:51:17.140
And she had a look on Instagram because that's where we always are these days.
00:51:20.520
And she found a newly qualified therapist, I think she was, or she must have had a few years under her belt.
00:51:29.200
And she was charging three grand for the entire session.
00:51:40.340
So what she decided to do was read the reviews.
00:51:42.220
And the reviews, she noticed women were saying, subhanAllah, after my therapy coaching, my husband now sits and has dinner with me.
00:51:49.920
And she realized that actually, she had nowhere near as bad problems as these other women did, because it was all coming down to her perspective.
00:52:00.080
So if you want to make a minor problem big, all you've got to do is focus on it and just feed it.
00:52:15.760
For me personally, I don't think going to any form of, you know, psychology or counselling background is a good idea.
00:52:24.300
I think if you and your husband cannot sort it out between yourself, there's no one else that's going to help you.
00:52:30.700
You should be mature enough to deal with that situation.
00:52:50.220
Because I studied psychology for three years and then I've done my master's in sociology and I don't see any benefit in it in terms of, you know, aiding each other in the marriage.
00:52:58.380
Because what that's going to do is it's going to now reveal, oh, your husband has trauma.
00:53:11.620
This marriage now is, it's got rid of your identity.
00:53:15.820
So I feel like once you go to these counselors...
00:53:18.300
It's an extreme skepticism and extreme acceptance.
00:53:23.460
Is there anyone in this world who doesn't have some form of trauma?
00:53:28.100
Yeah, but what these psychologists are doing is they're basically bringing up this trauma when it hasn't affected you that much.
00:53:40.380
I just wanted to say that if we go to seek help, there is nothing shameful or wrong about that.
00:53:46.720
In fact, I think we need to seek help because there is only so much that our brain knows and so much experience that we have.
00:53:54.080
You can't just sit there and think, right, I'm not going to go to psychologists.
00:53:57.820
I can't go to my in-laws, can't go to my parents, can't go to my friends.
00:54:01.280
So I guess I'm going to decide I'm going to get a divorce and that's the end of your marriage.
00:54:07.980
But above all, we have to remember our intention.
00:54:11.320
You have to make intention that, yeah, love, please help me understand this and process this in a way it's going to benefit my marriage.
00:54:17.660
You're not going there to ask the therapist or the counselor, right, tell me my traumas.
00:54:24.960
Therefore, I can relive the pain and then go away and focus on it.
00:54:28.360
They are merely just trying to outline what could have been the cause of this dispute that you had.
00:54:37.440
And yes, it involves that we go back to what caused the trauma, which emerges pain.
00:54:44.660
You're just reliving it every single day, which is affecting your marriage and your relationship with your family, friends.
00:54:50.280
And potentially, you're obviously setting an example to your children as well.
00:54:55.520
So by revisiting trauma, that's not necessarily a bad thing.
00:54:58.700
I think we, especially the Asian culture, we are told, right, don't talk about it, especially with men.
00:55:07.620
And that is why we have so many broken men today.
00:55:10.840
And it's so sad to see that when there was help all along, all they needed to do was maybe have that cry,
00:55:16.480
was maybe reach out to a psychologist or therapist or maybe just get some form of guidance.
00:55:24.660
We have Allah, we have therapy, and then we have ourselves to make our own decisions.
00:55:29.220
Or in-laws, which they can open up the in-laws, which is a discussion at hand.
00:55:32.340
I don't disagree with anything she just said there.
00:55:35.920
I think that she, I mean, I think she's making a valid point.
00:55:39.160
The question of to what extent are counsellors, marriage counsellors or counsellors themselves effective?
00:55:46.060
There's two questions there, really, if you think about this.
00:55:48.120
To what extent are marriage counsellors effective in saving marriages?
00:55:51.700
And another question is to what extent are counsellors effective in general?
00:55:57.940
These are the kinds of questions we've got our hand here.
00:56:01.100
I'm going to have to look at some studies to see to what extent are marriage counsellors effective.
00:56:05.640
I think the question of the second one, there is good effect.
00:56:09.960
Certainly, like, psychotherapy has its benefits.
00:56:16.840
You can approach all of those things as a Muslim with no problem.
00:56:20.840
However, you need to know the assumptions of these things.
00:56:23.360
And as a Muslim with a moral compass, you also need to realise that I'm saying something now, for example, in the counselling session, which I myself deem to be, for example, morally okay, morally aberrational, morally halal or haram.
00:56:37.200
Even though this person in front of me might acquiesce or reassure me that what I'm doing is okay.
00:56:42.900
Which is why I think the best kind of counselling is a synthesis between someone who knows, as you've said, Gabriel, it's like someone who knows something of the Islamic sciences, something of Islamic spirituality.
00:56:51.960
And at the same time, from our perspective, these methods and approaches and stuff like that.
00:56:58.020
It's hard to find, but I think there's a need for that.
00:57:00.420
There's a need for now Muslims to produce their own methodologies, which touch upon both psycho and spiritual realms of the equation.
00:57:09.840
I think experimental psychology has taken over now more and more.
00:57:15.020
And I do believe that you can connect a lot of the procedures and processes to the sunnah of the Prophet ﷺ.
00:57:22.480
Because we have, like, for example, just the basic hadith, al-Din al-Masih.
00:57:26.040
The Prophet ﷺ said that this deen is counselling advice.
00:57:30.760
When you put that in the context and you look at the sirah of the Prophet ﷺ, the sahaba were not shy to go to the Prophet ﷺ.
00:57:37.640
That's how much we learn from the hadith of the Prophet ﷺ with regards to, you have the fiqh of marriage, the fiqh of divorce, you have the fiqh of so many, right?
00:57:46.100
And if you look at the hadith, it would be a sahabi or sahabiyat where we're going to the Prophet ﷺ, having some form of interaction.
00:57:57.940
It's based on the revelation of Allah ﷻ, the Quran and the Sunnah.
00:58:00.660
If you're differing in something, this is a difference.
00:58:10.060
There are things that I was, because I was looking into this kind of like informally myself.
00:58:14.020
The tensions between the Islamic system or Islamic hadith, Islamic, you know, vision, if you like.
00:58:21.880
In terms of psychological preparation, if you want to call it that, or counseling, what do you want to call it?
00:58:27.900
And there are a few things I want to kind of outline here, but before I do so, I think it's important to realize.
00:58:36.960
So, for example, one of the things that the Prophet ﷺ does a lot, and has done throughout the seerah, which you'd never find a counselor doing.
00:58:44.640
Nowadays, and I say this tentatively, or very rarely, seldomly, would you find a counselor doing, a counselor with non-religious affiliation,
00:58:53.300
is tell somebody, not only that they're wrong, but that they have to persevere through the, whatever is trauma, so-called trauma they're going through.
00:59:01.160
So, for example, there's a very famous hadith, the companions come to the Prophet Muhammad ﷺ.
00:59:06.880
This is, they were being, not just boycotted, but they were being tortured.
00:59:12.760
And then the Prophet ﷺ, the way he responded to that, would be completely against all counseling instruction.
00:59:22.300
Well, yeah, no, it's not Bilal, it's this, I think this is, Jabodun Abdullah's, the rabid hadith, and he said that, basically, the Prophet ﷺ said that,
00:59:31.820
people before you, their skins were, their skins were taken by the, you know, the M-shippah, basically combs of things.
00:59:41.960
Now, the question is, will the counselor ever tell you, stop complaining?
00:59:47.660
One thing is, there's another thing, which is, there's a hadith of the Prophet Muhammad ﷺ,
00:59:52.280
which is also narrated by Abu Huraira in Bukhara al-Muslim.
00:59:58.720
المؤمن القوي خير و أحب إلا الله من المؤمن الضعفة في كل خير.
01:00:05.280
The strong believer is better and more beloved to Allah than the weak believer, and both of them is good.
01:00:11.940
He gives us now advice of how to be a strong mu'min, how to be a strong person, how to be resilient.
01:00:18.800
Yes, be cautious about that which is going to benefit you.
01:00:32.040
Do not quit when you are afflicted with trauma.
01:00:36.640
So, can you imagine now, nowadays we're weakened as a society, because we don't have people telling us not to quit.
01:00:42.400
We don't have the mental fortitude and resilience that we once had.
01:00:45.640
Because we don't have someone like the Prophet ﷺ telling us, don't quit.
01:00:49.620
So, a counsellor today will tell you, yes, you're within your right to feel this pain, and this and that, and this is a trauma, and all those kind of things.
01:01:01.900
Now, let me tell you, there's a shift here that I've seen.
01:01:04.680
Because I was looking at Carl Jung, who was one of the founding fathers of psychoanalysis itself.
01:01:11.180
Actually, there was three major founding fathers.
01:01:14.680
And I was seeing the clients that he had in the early days.
01:01:22.300
And she was, there was a particular woman that I was watching.
01:01:25.660
She was saying that when Carl Jung was doing the therapy session with her, she would get angry.
01:01:31.600
She'd stand up and get angry and smash the door behind her.
01:01:34.240
And she was telling her, this is online, right?
01:01:36.780
And then the interviewer asked her, did you come back?
01:01:40.640
Carl Jung, even though he was a psychoanalyst, he had a more interrogative style.
01:01:50.200
So it was kind of like what you would expect in an interrogation.
01:01:54.000
Because if you want to get into the crevices of your own psyche, and you want to explore what your problem is,
01:01:59.380
then self-accountability is at the core of that.
01:02:02.440
But modern counseling eliminates this kind of thing.
01:02:11.620
And when I, sometimes I'm here, I do the show, et cetera.
01:02:14.480
And even the show that we did about men want career-wise, sports-based kind of stuff, yeah?
01:02:19.860
The comments, I think we've got 4,000 comments, yeah?
01:02:22.520
And the thing is, look, anytime I mention certain, whatever it may be, and I see the same from our sister's side.
01:02:27.040
When they say something pertaining to men, I'm genuinely, I see it as they want the best for us.
01:02:32.240
But when I say this, and I'm just talking to those that are watching, when I say it mentions certain stuff, we are men, yeah?
01:02:39.780
So when we're saying certain things, understand where we're coming from.
01:02:46.880
But if we're saying certain stuff, which are bitter truths, and let's be real here, yeah?
01:02:50.820
Take it and understand, maybe he's trying to help me better myself, like you said.
01:02:54.440
Now, going to Surah Talaq, I find this very interesting, because I don't think we've touched up on this, yeah?
01:02:58.920
Yes, we're going to, inshallah, in about five minutes, we're going to finish, inshallah, yeah?
01:03:05.100
So when they, the divorced women, have almost reached their term, then either retain with them with fairness, or part with them in fairness,
01:03:12.260
and make two just men among from you witness of either of the decision.
01:03:16.280
And O witnesses, keep your testimony upright for the sake of Allah.
01:03:20.720
That is what anyone who believes in Allah in the last day exhorted to do.
01:03:25.920
Whoever feels Allah, he brings forth a way out for him, and provides for him from places he would never imagine, yeah?
01:03:32.220
Now, this is one thing I think that we're really, really missing, yeah?
01:03:36.440
The Salaf would say, anytime we would commit a sin, we would see it in our riding beast.
01:03:42.720
When we would come home and be like, okay, the wife's barking out.
01:03:46.580
They would connect it back to the sin they committed.
01:03:48.840
How many of us today go and say, hold on a second, bro.
01:03:56.760
And you're telling me, and you're coming and telling me, oh man, I don't know why my marriage.
01:04:01.040
Bro, you know, and I'm not saying, look, there can be issues.
01:04:06.200
We knew righteous women who married evil people.
01:04:11.520
How many of us, we talk about this culture, that culture, this, that, yeah, okay, all well and good.
01:04:14.980
Because Allah says in the Quran, if you don't know something, ask somebody that knows.
01:04:17.800
But how many of us have ever self-reflected and said, you know what, hold on a second.
01:04:24.320
Which one of my sins is it that I'm doing that is causing the destruction of my marriage right in front of my eyes?
01:04:29.440
How many of us do this and say, you know what, hold on a second, bro.
01:04:32.200
Or I'm a guy who goes and speaks to different girls, left, right, center, every day.
01:04:37.620
How come, what kind of barakah do you want in your marriage?
01:04:39.740
Or I'm a sister who goes and talks evil of my husband to everyone and anyone that no one has respect for him.
01:04:47.700
If we are indulging these sins, if we're doing these evil actions, how do you expect?
01:04:52.600
Like the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam said in the hadith, what he earns is haram.
01:04:58.440
And it's something along those lines, the hijab, if you know.
01:05:03.660
How did you look, you're doing all of these things and then you're like, and this is the biggest problem.
01:05:21.380
What Allah has prescribed is the best thing for us.
01:05:24.880
Of course, there are professionals in their fields that we can go to, understandable.
01:05:30.340
Self-reflect, my sins that I'm committing, understanding all of this.
01:05:46.660
We're like, forget, well, how many people come down and say, nobody.
01:05:52.660
It's just really, well, it hurts me to see believers divorcing.
01:05:57.840
One of the reasons I started to show, Wallahi, I don't want to see that.
01:06:03.140
Because the first thing, Shaytan, when Sihir was sent down to Harut and Marut, did the Sihir,
01:06:21.160
I would extract two solutions from this discussion.
01:06:24.200
Number one would be that imams have to learn more pragmatic ways of dealing with issues.
01:06:30.840
And that if anyone goes into coaching, it needs to have an Islamic background.
01:06:36.380
Like they have to, you cannot separate the two, as you were saying, the separation, this
01:06:40.420
moral relativism, this division between what Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala has revealed and
01:06:44.640
what we think, as you said, the naql and the naql.
01:06:46.760
I would say that would be number one, that we need to fix the problem by actually targeting
01:06:54.260
And that is ignorance, lack of submission, as you said, lack of self-accountability.
01:07:10.860
Number two, I would say that, you know, divorce is climbing.
01:07:21.660
Not just, okay, where do we go if they're about to divorce?
01:07:35.300
Yeah, I'm just, another thing is that divorce is not as bad as many people think it is.
01:07:39.100
It's true, I mean, in the sense that I think we have this perception that, okay, well,
01:07:46.480
I was looking at some particular, I think it was, I might be wrong, but it could be Yusuf
01:07:51.720
Rappaport, his name is, is a particular guy, medievalist and stuff like that.
01:07:56.740
And he came across a study in medieval Egypt in the 8th century or 9th century.
01:08:05.460
And, and it was, it was, I think the biggest of his kind and on women actually, it was
01:08:17.120
Now, which is very interesting because this is 800 years ago.
01:08:22.820
So don't forget, like, you know, when you look at the companions, I mean, most, most of
01:08:26.800
them, I don't know if most of them were divorced and that's just difficult to say, but a lot
01:08:36.720
There's a difference when they divorced and stayed divorced.
01:08:42.400
But what I was going to say was that the point is, is because if we make it all doom and
01:08:46.740
gloom, it's kind of like, there's no bouncing back from it.
01:08:51.800
This is something which people have recovered from.
01:08:54.920
People have been able to get over and do something afterwards.
01:09:06.520
She was married to Ali ibn Abi Talib, Jafar ibn Abi Talib.
01:09:17.760
A very famous hadith where she was speaking and she was asked, who's your best husband
01:09:24.880
And she goes, from among the shuyukh, like the elder generation, it was Abu Bakr Siddiq.
01:09:36.900
But, so Ali was like, there's nothing left for me.
01:09:49.860
Well, like today men, they would do something else.
01:09:53.900
What I'm saying was that there was more of an issue.
01:09:58.820
What I'm saying, it was more like, it's not a problem.
01:10:01.020
Like, okay, this is a woman that she's been married to this one.
01:10:09.900
The reason why I'm bringing that to the table is because I thought, like, it's important
01:10:12.920
to realize, okay, divorce can be the end, but it can also be the beginning.
01:10:16.700
And so we have to have, like, a different idea of that.
01:10:19.300
Let's just, because we need to play a market, inshallah.
01:10:21.880
I think a lot of us need to learn our deen more than anything, because as Sister Arifah
01:10:28.160
mentioned before, it's more about the culture that's being performed today.
01:10:33.020
Luckily for me, I was married to Iraqi, so, and I come from Afghani, you know, heritage.
01:10:37.920
But when there's certain communities, unfortunately, as I see even as my clients, that regardless
01:10:43.220
of what, they live by the rule of their culture.
01:10:45.900
And I really think that that needs to be addressed.
01:10:52.640
So, Brava said that therapy tells you, does not tell you to actually stop complaining,
01:11:00.440
In a way, it almost teaches you how to stop complaining by making you aware of your behaviors
01:11:08.380
For someone who is divorced and who's had multiple therapy sessions with different therapists,
01:11:13.680
I can definitely say that I have become more aware of myself and my relationship with
01:11:22.780
And maybe, yes, Allah gave me that, Ruth, because that's how he wanted to guide me.
01:11:28.720
But we can't knock it down and say that they don't teach you to stop complaining, because
01:11:32.960
I used to complain about everything, every single thing.
01:11:36.340
Little did I realize, I was actually the traffic.
01:11:38.820
But existential therapy and psychology is more popular than I'm talking about.
01:11:46.780
Let me just clarify something, because it's important.
01:11:48.440
I think the point of stop complaining is important, because yes, it's true that psychologists
01:11:53.260
or counselors would say things like, you know, you have trait neuroticism or something like
01:11:57.480
this, how to reduce it or whatever it is, or they give you ways.
01:12:00.900
What I was going with was further than that, in the sense that the Islamic conception would
01:12:07.680
Like, for example, there's an ayah in the Quran that says that,
01:12:10.240
Whatever happens, whatever happens in your life, that it's your fault.
01:12:22.280
Yeah, what your hands have put forward, and it pardons a lot of sins.
01:12:26.060
And it doesn't go, what we're saying is our model of therapy, our therapeutic method.
01:12:32.640
Because it's saying that, in essence, everything goes back to your own behavior.
01:12:37.540
And that level of self-accountability, I'm saying, yeah, you're right about the complaining,
01:12:41.340
but it's not afforded in modern housing at all.
01:12:43.520
Yeah, so basically, I understand, there is, but not to the level of...
01:12:52.700
Yeah, it's just a small little concept of, you know, when we're constant complaining,
01:12:57.120
we'll feed, it's like they say, if you've got two wolves, which one grows?
01:13:02.360
So, going back to what you said, yeah, you're right.
01:13:08.720
And we have become overly sensitive, unfortunately, today.
01:13:13.280
We can't take criticism, even over the smallest thing.
01:13:18.660
But then we are not mentally or emotionally or psychologically, unfortunately, equipped
01:13:23.960
enough to understand it and actually process it, change it, and adapt it into our everyday life.
01:13:29.520
Therefore, that method, unfortunately, does not always work for all of us.
01:13:38.040
As sad as it is, maybe that is the approach that this person understands.
01:13:43.440
And that is the approach most of us understand these days.
01:13:46.620
But it doesn't matter how anyone says anything to you.
01:13:50.100
If you want to gain something from it, you will, regardless of how it's said to you.
01:13:54.260
If you want to criticize it and reject it, it doesn't matter if your mom said it, your dad said it,
01:13:59.320
or, you know, the king said it, you will reject it.
01:14:08.680
Just one more thing, because you're making good points.
01:14:11.400
Before I forget it, because sometimes I've got a train of thought and I forget it.
01:14:15.340
Which is that the idea of sugarcoating something, okay?
01:14:19.700
The Islamic creed cannot be sugarcoated in the sense that, like, for example,
01:14:24.160
we believe that, okay, there's such a thing as depression.
01:14:26.420
For the sake of all, it's a clinical disorder, for example, yeah?
01:14:29.220
And it's differentiated by what's referred to as transitory sadness.
01:14:32.720
And usually the diagnosis say, like, for example, transitory sadness is six months
01:14:35.720
and everything else for six months is depression, for example, right?
01:14:38.440
Now, there is a kind of depression which is haram, which is actually poor.
01:14:42.060
For example, you might be surprised to hear this, but
01:14:46.580
وَمَنْ يَيْأَسُوا مِنْ رَوحِ اللَّهِ إِلَّا الْقَوْمُ الْكَافِرُونَ
01:14:55.240
So, the point is, on the spectrum of depression,
01:15:00.200
In fact, if you're, for example, studying bipolar disorder,
01:15:05.400
would be the epitome of depressive mood swings, for example.
01:15:12.060
there are some things which you cannot do as a Muslim
01:15:27.540
being told that everything essentially that you're doing that's wrong
01:15:31.680
Now, that might be very hard for somebody who is a victim of X, Y, Z assault.
01:15:37.440
But actually, this is because of a sin that you've done.
01:15:39.560
Or it's because of a test that you'll be given.
01:15:57.120
if you and your husband are in constant arguments
01:16:02.880
So what are we going to do when we both get heated?
01:16:05.600
So I know, I don't know if it's a hadith or not,
01:16:07.340
but obviously one becomes fire, one becomes water.
01:16:10.620
You know, try and implement that early in your marriage.
01:16:19.740
and he was saying that when he argues with his wife,
01:16:33.820
I don't think getting too many interventions involved,
01:18:10.560
As-salamu alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu.
01:18:25.220
As-salamu alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu.
01:18:32.620
for the sake of Allah sallallahu alaykum wa ta'ala,
01:18:38.880
where Allah sallallahu alaykum wa ta'ala tells us
01:18:42.080
and every little atom weight of good deed you've done