Ali Dawah - SHOULD IN-LAWS GET INVOLVED？ EP 3 ｜｜ BITTER TRUTH SHOW

00:00:00.000 Should in-laws get involved in marital disputes? 0.97

00:00:04.120 I think a lot of families are not actually equipped to deal with disputes.

00:00:09.360 I think that they will be quite judgmental and biased.

00:00:11.860 And I think you could say that in some cases it's actually haram to get them involved.

00:00:15.780 In some cases it's haram.

00:00:16.840 And the reality is, especially if you're even living with your in-laws,

00:00:19.640 it's hard for them to ignore and you can't really get away from it for them to actually see it.

00:00:23.260 So realistically, a lot of the times, you know, those are the only people that you can actually turn to.

00:00:27.540 It's not really about backbiting.

00:00:28.780 They actually can see your mood when you're sitting on the table with them.

00:00:31.900 If I put a legal case on you that destroyed your life, for example,

00:00:35.960 I've accused you of violence, domestic violence.

00:00:38.160 It goes on your record, right?

00:00:39.660 And it's like you're staying pretty much for life.

00:00:41.460 The problem that I think we face a lot is, especially if you come from a South Asian background,

00:00:45.280 we have a very, very toxic culture, which teaches us that women should stay quiet. 1.00

00:00:50.980 And, you know, marriage is tough.

00:00:52.980 It's a gamble.

00:00:53.680 So just deal with it.

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00:01:21.820 Assalamualaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh, brothers and sisters and dear friends.

00:01:25.500 Hope you guys are well inshaAllah.

00:01:26.300 Welcome to the Bitter Truth Show.

00:01:28.520 As you guys know, we speak about a variety of topics pertaining to gender roles,

00:01:32.240 divorce, marriage, single, Muslim looking to get married, and different topics.

00:01:36.680 Some topics are controversial.

00:01:38.260 I just want to give some disclaimers.

00:01:39.540 We are not here to talk about certain matters just for the sake of it,

00:01:43.440 just for some views or just because they're controversial.

00:01:46.260 But we genuinely, well, I'll speak on my behalf,

00:01:49.680 but I also assume the best in the people that are here today,

00:01:52.260 is that we want the best, you know, for our brothers and sisters who are watching this.

00:01:55.420 So anyone that's expressing something,

00:01:57.280 please understand that it's not coming from a place of hate.

00:01:59.920 It's coming there from a place of care.

00:02:01.480 So please assume the best, inshaAllah.

00:02:03.540 And yeah, that's it, inshaAllah.

00:02:04.920 So today, it's a bit different.

00:02:07.280 As you can see, I don't know if you can see, we've got four buzzers here.

00:02:09.980 Before I introduce this concept, the show is called Bitter Truth.

00:02:13.820 The four buzzers are here called Bitter Buzzers.

00:02:15.820 So the Bitter Buzzers are, that's, you know, it's going to be, 1.00

00:02:19.600 maybe it can turn a bit bitter, but the point is,

00:02:22.360 if you disagree with someone and every person in the panel

00:02:26.740 has one chance to press it once, once they do,

00:02:29.280 the person who's speaking finishes their sentence

00:02:30.860 and the person who's pressed the buzzer would have a minute and a half,

00:02:35.360 nobody interrupting them to express their counter-argument

00:02:38.640 or whatever it may be, inshaAllah.

00:02:40.160 So that's it.

00:02:40.720 So before I start, I want to praise Allah,

00:02:42.720 the most merciful, the most just,

00:02:44.060 or praise His glory and gratitude belong to Him.

00:02:46.140 And we ask Allah to make this beneficial, not only to us,

00:02:48.560 but for those who are watching at home, inshaAllah.

00:02:50.400 And that it helps the family units, which are already breaking down

00:02:52.820 and is attacking the nuclear family units as well.

00:02:55.460 So, also, we've got a very esteemed guest,

00:02:57.780 we have a blessing, brother Gabriel Romani.

00:02:59.100 As-salamu alaykum.

00:03:00.220 As-salamu alaykum.

00:03:00.880 Please tell us a bit about yourself, inshaAllah.

00:03:03.380 Am I the only special guest?

00:03:04.720 No, no, we always have the special guest.

00:03:06.880 Everyone's a special guest.

00:03:07.600 But you, because you've come from far,

00:03:09.460 you're the special, special guest.

00:03:10.880 Yeah, BVIP.

00:03:12.140 Yeah, inshaAllah.

00:03:12.660 So, please tell us a bit about yourself.

00:03:14.640 And then we'll go to our very special guest,

00:03:17.420 our brother who's very close to my heart,

00:03:19.260 our brother as well.

00:03:20.840 So, yeah, tell us a bit about yourself, what you do.

00:03:23.380 And inshaAllah, yeah.

00:03:24.540 Tell us a bit about yourself.

00:03:25.440 Bismillah, alhamdulillah, wa salatu salatu wa salatu wa salatu wa sallam.

00:03:28.260 My name is Gabriel Romani.

00:03:29.560 I'm a positive Islamic psychology counsellor.

00:03:31.860 I've been Muslim for about 20 years now, alhamdulillah.

00:03:35.140 And mostly I focus on counselling, mental health, relationships, and so on.

00:03:41.040 Masculinity. 0.51

00:03:41.880 Masculinity, yeah, alhamdulillah. 0.82

00:03:43.000 Yes, right, right.

00:03:43.980 We don't want to.

00:03:44.640 Alhamdulillah.

00:03:45.800 Inshallah.

00:03:46.380 May Allah bless you, inshaAllah.

00:03:47.240 Hijab? 0.99

00:03:49.540 Yeah, oh, okay.

00:03:50.180 So, you're saying there's no, need no interrupt.

00:03:52.240 Introduction.

00:03:52.980 Yeah, tell us.

00:03:53.820 Usually it's customary for the host to, you know, introduce the guest.

00:03:56.860 Yeah, I need to learn that, inshaAllah.

00:03:58.400 So, the esteemed guest, the great honourable, also known as the learned one.

00:04:02.300 This is Mohamed Hijab.

00:04:03.700 May Allah bless him, inshaAllah.

00:04:04.540 Thank you, Amin.

00:04:05.140 I'm honoured to have you guys here.

00:04:06.500 And our dear honourable sisters, may Allah bless them for being here.

00:04:09.560 They'll play a very important role in this discussion, inshaAllah.

00:04:12.680 Starting from sister, inshaAllah, if you can just introduce yourself.

00:04:15.920 As-salamu alaykum.

00:04:17.140 I'm Bint Athens.

00:04:18.920 I'm a mother of two and currently working as a nursery teacher.

00:04:22.720 As-salamu alaykum.

00:04:27.240 I'm Ira Deen and a mother of one, currently divorced.

00:04:31.700 I work in a school.

00:04:32.440 As-salamu alaykum.

00:04:35.580 I'm Fahima Mohamed and I'm a broadcaster, also a life coach, NLP practitioner, CBT therapist.

00:04:45.200 Also currently studying my master's in the final stage of neuroscience and psychology of mental health.

00:04:50.960 And I do help people in the community, different backgrounds, male and female with regards to all kinds of issues and especially relationships and appear on several different TV channels, including mainstream and different sects and different backgrounds as well.

00:05:08.040 So try to represent within the community and outside the community, talking about social issues and relationship issues as well.

00:05:16.500 Thank you, Mialah.

00:05:16.940 Bless you guys, inshaAllah.

00:05:17.740 So I'm going to introduce a topic here at hand today.

00:05:20.880 But just so you guys are aware, this is what the buzzer sounds like.

00:05:23.240 So if you hear it, please finish your sentence and the person who's pressed it, give them the chance to speak or heard.

00:05:29.200 So the topic today is the following.

00:05:33.580 Should in-laws get involved in marital disputes? 0.97

00:05:39.260 So that's just to put it out there.

00:05:43.300 We can talk about what kind of disputes we're talking about later, minor, major.

00:05:46.600 But in general, let me start with Dr. Gabriel.

00:05:51.460 Do you believe that in-laws should get involved in every marital dispute?

00:05:57.680 One marital dispute?

00:05:58.920 What's your take on it?

00:06:00.280 In-shallah.

00:06:01.040 Bismillah.

00:06:02.520 So it depends, I guess, what the issues are.

00:06:06.460 Because Allah SWT tells us in the Quran about where and at what position do you choose an arbitrator from her family and from his family.

00:06:14.860 It's usually kind of like the late stage before you're about to separate, right?

00:06:20.420 And what happens today, what we see is that it's the first thing that people do, right?

00:06:24.360 As soon as there's an issue, mom, dad, this is what's happening.

00:06:28.380 Everyone gets involved.

00:06:29.680 And instead of solving problems, because obviously there's emotional attachments to each side, biases, people are going to make mistakes.

00:06:37.180 Because if I'm a father, if my daughter gets married to someone, most likely, if I'm not well-versed, if I'm not wise, and I don't understand the sharia and the procedures, I'm probably going to side with my daughter, isn't it? 0.89

00:06:51.880 True.

00:06:52.660 It shouldn't be like that.

00:06:53.660 Shouldn't be like that.

00:06:54.140 But it's human beings.

00:06:55.400 Right.

00:06:55.880 And it's a hard thing to do.

00:06:58.040 But the bitter truth is that we shouldn't usually, yeah.

00:07:02.000 Sisters, what's your take on it?

00:07:03.360 Do you think that in-laws should be involved from the very get-go, later stage, minor argument, major argument?

00:07:11.640 Where would you get your family or his family involved in a dispute?

00:07:16.920 Okay, well, my opinion, again, also differs because it depends on the actual dispute.

00:07:26.160 And I think a lot of families are not actually equipped to deal with disputes.

00:07:32.240 I think that they will be quite judgmental and biased.

00:07:35.040 And also, there's an effect of it coming back on them, even if the couple has resolved their issues, so that they will keep it in them.

00:07:42.560 And even if the couple wants to move forward, it will always be a reminder.

00:07:45.480 And unfortunately, with human mind and behavior, unless they are trained to be able to control themselves and not feel the need to interfere and remind them, they can actually push back the actual couple to resolve the issues.

00:07:59.180 And I think, again, like the brother mentioned, I think a lot of people are very judgmental and they're very protective as well.

00:08:06.620 You can understand that.

00:08:07.640 So, I think it's best to even, if they can't resolve it between themselves, to seek an outside perspective, a professional or a wali or whatever it is that they started off with.

00:08:18.820 Okay.

00:08:19.220 I personally think that it depends on your in-laws.

00:08:24.220 So, I think it depends on your in-laws.

00:08:26.580 Like, you know your in-laws best.

00:08:28.100 And it also depends on the situation you're in.

00:08:30.320 I would say don't get them involved unless it's something serious.

00:08:34.600 And I think you can judge that.

00:08:35.740 So, I can't speak on everyone, but I would say look at your in-laws.

00:08:39.260 How much knowledge do they have?

00:08:40.760 How well do they know you both?

00:08:42.160 Are they fair people?

00:08:43.020 And if so, then do get them involved.

00:08:45.880 But if you can resolve it between you, then obviously don't get them involved.

00:08:49.520 Yeah.

00:08:50.100 Adding on to what the sister said, it depends on the kind of relationships you have with them.

00:08:55.560 So, we have three sides here.

00:08:57.820 We've got his side, her side, and then the truth.

00:09:00.520 And the point is for all of us to work together to get to the truth, not be biased, not fight against each other.

00:09:06.620 As long as we can agree that we're all on that same page and that we have the best interests for one another, then I think you should.

00:09:12.520 But that's more at a later stage, definitely not in the early days.

00:09:16.820 Okay.

00:09:17.320 So, like the sister said, there's his story, her story, and the truth.

00:09:21.700 But the sister said, or the brother said, they might say, this is my truth.

00:09:26.580 So, hijab, I don't know, like, you know, we speak to a lot of people, a lot of people come to us for advice.

00:09:31.360 What's your take on, like, in-laws getting involved?

00:09:34.140 Do you think they should get involved straight away at all?

00:09:37.000 What's your take on it?

00:09:37.600 I think that if we're speaking from an Islamic paradigm, that we have to kind of compartmentalize the situation. 0.71

00:09:45.100 And you can probably say that, you can rephrase the question, what is the hukum?

00:09:49.660 What is the ruling of getting involved?

00:09:51.640 Okay.

00:09:51.880 And I think you could say that, in some cases, it's actually haram to get them involved.

00:09:56.540 In some cases, it's halal.

00:09:58.240 In some cases, it's mustahab. 0.69

00:09:59.960 And I think that for you to have a successful Islamic marriage, you need to know which is which. 1.00

00:10:05.180 For example, in the haram cases, many men or women will speak with their parents about their apartment.

00:10:11.120 This is haram.

00:10:11.620 This is ghiba namima, for example.

00:10:13.260 Is it the class that's ghiba?

00:10:14.280 Yes, of course.

00:10:15.060 If, for example, a woman is complaining to her mum about her husband, or a man is complaining to his mother about his wife, because he's trying to placate them, for example.

00:10:25.660 The general ruling is that you're not allowed to speak about someone behind their back, for example.

00:10:30.440 So you're saying, I want to get my family involved.

00:10:32.380 But what you're actually doing is you're biting, you're backbiting your brother or your sister in Islam, and you're getting a major sin. 0.74

00:10:38.480 So that's a clear indication, or an example of when getting your family involved can be haram.

00:10:47.200 A situation where it's, for example, allowed would be if there's mutual consent between both parties, and you say, okay, I want to get this person involved.

00:10:58.220 The way the Qur'an phrases it is,

00:10:59.580 وَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ شِخَاقِ بِأِنِهِمَا فَبَأَتُوا حَكَمٍ مِنْ أَهْلِي وَحَكَمٍ مِنْ أَهْلِهَا

00:11:04.000 You know, if you fear separation between them, then get someone from his family, someone from her family.

00:11:09.460 If you look at, if you pay attention to that verse, it's not speaking to the marriage, to the husband and wife.

00:11:16.480 وَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ شِخَاقِ بَيْنِهِمَا

00:11:18.500 It's not speaking to the husband and wife here, it's speaking to some other members of the community.

00:11:23.940 Because it's in the third person, not in the second.

00:11:25.780 So the question is, who is it speaking to?

00:11:27.720 وَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ شِخَاقِ بَيْنِهِمَا فَبَأَثُوا حَكَمٍ مِنْ أَهْلِهَا

00:11:31.300 وَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ أَهْلِهِ وَحَكَمٍ مِنْ أَهْلِهَا

00:11:33.800 So some say that, for example, مِكَثِيرًا

00:11:36.180 It mentions that it's the hakim.

00:11:39.160 For example, if there's an arbitrator, who, for example, both, because we know the story of Muhammad ﷺ and Aisha radiallahu anha,

00:11:45.640 where they're both kind of consulting with one another of who to bring to arbitrate between them.

00:11:51.100 And then, you know, he was suggesting names and then she would say no and yes and so on.

00:11:56.860 But anyway, she brought her father in and it was not a good idea for her because, I mean, the story is well known.

00:12:02.680 I'm not going to go into it now.

00:12:03.760 Maybe some people don't know.

00:12:05.140 Well, so there were suggesting names and then she brought her father in and her father was very,

00:12:09.360 she was taking the Prophet ﷺ side to a very high degree. 0.82

00:12:12.380 So she thought maybe that the bias would be in her direction, but it was certainly not.

00:12:16.300 It was the opposite.

00:12:17.180 That's interesting because it goes back to what Gabriel said, because sometimes as fathers,

00:12:21.160 right-versed mothers, it's because it's our blood. 0.99

00:12:23.240 And we're talking about that iman is thicker than blood, that Abu Bakr al-Alaan actually is opposite. 0.94

00:12:28.580 Yeah, it's quite beautiful.

00:12:30.220 Exactly.

00:12:30.860 So, I mean, the point I'm making with this is that it's, Ibn Kathir says the hakim, the arbitrator.

00:12:36.340 So in this case, we don't have a ruler or a judge, but let's say, for example, you have an arbitrator.

00:12:40.900 The arbitrator says, bring someone from his family, bring someone from him.

00:12:43.880 And the word in Arabic is hakamah, which really comes from the connotation of a hakim, a wise person.

00:12:49.120 You can't just bring anybody and it's not just necessarily the father and mother.

00:12:51.520 So the Quranic method on this issue is not bring the in-laws involved.

00:12:55.740 You just bring the person who you think in that family is most qualified.

00:12:59.600 It might not be the father and mother.

00:13:00.420 It could be the grandfather.

00:13:01.520 It could be the uncle, maybe.

00:13:03.080 It could be anybody, right?

00:13:04.540 Whoever you feel is, the continuation of the verses,

00:13:08.380 that if they want to, if they want to reconciliation, then Allah will make them successful.

00:13:18.380 So, you know, so, which means that you also, these two people have to want to reconcile with one another.

00:13:23.300 So I don't think that the issue of getting the in-laws involved, nowadays, a lot of divorces actually are predicated on that.

00:13:28.780 Yes.

00:13:29.020 So the woman goes to her father and she starts mentioning certain things to him about the husband. 0.59

00:13:35.020 And that's it.

00:13:35.500 It's a write-off now after that.

00:13:36.720 It's irrevocable damage.

00:13:38.360 And so these kinds of things need to be kind of weighed up and thought about.

00:13:42.500 And you, Gabriel, and other people that do counseling probably know more than me.

00:13:45.660 I haven't done counseling like that.

00:13:47.400 So a lot of divorces, I'm guessing, are because of the in-laws' involvement.

00:13:51.520 And I feel that, therefore, the basic policy should be not to get them involved.

00:13:55.580 Unless it's a health and safety issue.

00:13:57.120 At all?

00:13:57.700 At all?

00:13:58.260 Well, I mean, unless it's a health and safety issue.

00:14:00.680 Or unless there's an arbitration, there's consent, and there is, you know, there's a whole deliberation process.

00:14:05.220 Interesting.

00:14:05.680 Like, in today's time, when you're talking about, for example, maybe life and death kind of situations, or maybe not to that extent, but you know what I mean.

00:14:13.460 But in today's time, bro, it's, I want to be careful.

00:14:17.640 I don't want to say people are snowflakes here because these things will happen.

00:14:20.620 But any little minute thing, like, do you see this?

00:14:23.220 You do counseling.

00:14:23.780 You do counseling from mistaking, yeah?

00:14:25.620 Do you guys see people coming over?

00:14:26.980 Or, like, and then they want their parents involved.

00:14:31.300 Have you seen the detriment?

00:14:32.520 Because I have, but obviously you have.

00:14:34.160 I want you guys to.

00:14:35.500 I guess, as Mohammed said, it depends on what does it mean to get someone involved, right?

00:14:41.320 So, in most cases, the wife will go to her mother, her father, and start complaining about the husband. 0.86

00:14:49.760 Or, even go to the guy's mom, right?

00:14:52.280 She has a good relationship with him, start.

00:14:53.820 Which, obviously, is going to be back, but actually, you're not getting them involved as a hacking, but you're just basically going behind and complaining.

00:15:03.920 And, obviously, these people are not going to get the full picture.

00:15:06.560 One rule of thumb counseling is that you can never, ever just take one side or just listen to one argument.

00:15:13.340 It's very difficult.

00:15:14.680 That's why Ali Radilawan said that.

00:15:15.740 He said, I can't remember, is that, you know, a person which you see is that if he's got a judgment, is that he doesn't come and hear one side.

00:15:22.720 Because we do this a lot.

00:15:24.100 Like, I realize, I sometimes do.

00:15:25.780 Yeah, it's like, I was speaking to Sheikh Aitam about this, and Sheikh Aitam would, you know, he would say he had to, like, train himself to do this in the context of, that you would have a sister come in and she's crying.

00:15:34.840 Like, I'll be honest, like, I've had situations like that, similar, and I'm just like, oh my gosh, like, this, this, this, this, this, who is this, like, who is this guy?

00:15:42.020 And then, and then Sheikh Aitam goes, and you go and speak to the husband, and vice versa, vice versa.

00:15:46.780 As long as the husband comes and he makes it out to be like, the wife is this, and you speak, and you're like, I don't know, you didn't tell me about this, and you didn't tell me about that, and you were saying this, but there was context behind it.

00:15:54.820 I would say in about 80% of the cases, the story can change anywhere from 90 degrees to 180 almost, you know what I mean, the other way.

00:16:03.380 It's when you listen to the other side as well.

00:16:05.060 And then you'll ask, like, why don't you say this?

00:16:08.400 Oh, I was upset.

00:16:10.240 Oh, I was, you know, this, or oh.

00:16:13.220 I'm like, no, no, but you don't understand what you've caused now.

00:16:16.500 No, but I was angry.

00:16:18.280 And in the moment, you know, and you're talking here about not just someone's upset, family's angry.

00:16:24.720 You're talking about here police cases, legal issues, right, custody of children.

00:16:29.900 So when Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala tells us about this procedure, right, a lot of people, they want to follow the procedures of the Quran and sunnah when it suits them.

00:16:40.820 When it doesn't suit them, right, then they'll follow other procedures.

00:16:44.640 And in the end, it's detrimental.

00:16:46.640 People don't realize it until it actually happens.

00:16:48.620 When it happens, it's very hard to go back and fix things.

00:16:51.680 If I put a legal case on you that destroyed your life, for example, I've accused you of, today I was speaking to a case.

00:16:59.900 I've accused you of violence, domestic violence.

00:17:02.740 It goes on your record, right?

00:17:04.500 And it's like you're staying pretty much for life.

00:17:06.900 Like, for example, in Canada, you can't get a job anymore.

00:17:09.600 Wow.

00:17:10.060 Right?

00:17:10.380 The guy's like, he's had a master's, he's spent his whole life in IT, senior, right?

00:17:15.240 And all of a sudden, now you can't get a job in a school, bro.

00:17:19.000 You're talking about violence.

00:17:20.100 I've heard, and there's actually next month, we've got a couple, two brothers coming who went through a divorce.

00:17:27.420 And they were, the sisters stopped them from seeing the kids.

00:17:31.660 And not only that, one of them actually had a hidden camera where she testifies to falsely accusing him of rape. 0.88

00:17:38.820 And she actually says it on camera that, yeah, I was just, it wasn't true.

00:17:44.100 Yeah?

00:17:44.540 These are fathers actually battling to see their kids as well.

00:17:47.020 Yeah?

00:17:47.180 This is, we need to raise awareness that this is next month, inshallah.

00:17:49.300 But, Sister Fima, you coach.

00:17:52.080 Yes.

00:17:52.600 And the other sisters as well.

00:17:53.980 I don't know if you guys have heard of experiences.

00:17:56.340 What are your thoughts?

00:17:57.320 You know, do you do coaching?

00:17:58.300 Do you see this phenomena?

00:17:59.940 When would you say, do you agree with the brothers about, you know, maybe getting them involved later on?

00:18:05.720 And Hijab did mention that in some instances it can be haram.

00:18:07.700 So, maybe we can maybe just understand a bit better because if the sister's going genuinely and the husband has said something which is true.

00:18:16.400 But we'll come to that.

00:18:17.060 We'll come to that just to understand.

00:18:18.080 But what's your take on it with the experience that you've had?

00:18:19.900 I mean, it's great to have all of that sort of, you know, said in a particular way.

00:18:23.280 But a lot of us don't understand our deen.

00:18:25.420 And the reality is, especially if you're even living with your in-laws, it's hard for them to ignore.

00:18:29.380 And you can't really get away from it for them to actually see it.

00:18:31.780 So, realistically, a lot of the times, you know, those are the only people that you can actually turn to.

00:18:36.380 It's not really about backbiting.

00:18:38.100 They actually can see your mood when you're sitting on the table with them.

00:18:40.980 And that's how it works.

00:18:41.880 So, we've got to be realistic about this kind of things.

00:18:44.100 And at the same time, maybe your parents are the only ones or the in-laws that you can turn to in those extreme circumstances.

00:18:49.920 Because I've had loads of cases of abuse where they had to flee from the house and they had to have the people involved in the house in order to do that.

00:18:56.580 So, as much as we say what we say and we have all the rulings, reality, unfortunately, does not show that.

00:19:02.720 And there is no leader or arbitrator, whatever you want to call it, that's actually there to stand up for Muslim men and women, and especially women.

00:19:10.740 And the men's side is always taken first, even in divorce. 0.75

00:19:13.820 So, we need to also raise awareness.

00:19:15.400 Can you repeat that again? What did you say?

00:19:16.540 Muslim side is taken in divorce? Men's side?

00:19:18.780 Most of the time.

00:19:19.920 I disagree with that.

00:19:22.100 Well, most of the sheikhs, they find it very difficult.

00:19:25.540 Going through that.

00:19:27.300 Yeah, yeah.

00:19:27.700 You're nice.

00:19:28.240 Maybe she's talking about the UK context.

00:19:30.400 One second.

00:19:31.360 I'll do it for him.

00:19:33.300 I just wanted to do it.

00:19:35.600 Okay.

00:19:36.000 So, you press the bitter buzzer.

00:19:37.120 Yeah.

00:19:38.420 What's the rule now?

00:19:39.700 So, the ruling you've got, I'm going to give you a good one and a half minute to express.

00:19:44.600 But you said something.

00:19:45.160 You said, can you repeat that again, please?

00:19:46.760 A lot of the sheikhs or imams are not necessarily on the side of the women, especially when it comes to divorce,

00:19:54.340 or any dispute between husband and wife.

00:19:56.900 Okay, you have one and a half minutes.

00:19:58.020 So, a lot means what?

00:19:59.120 Like, how many?

00:19:59.700 Did you quantize that?

00:20:01.540 Well, I've been coaching for seven years, and I would say 90% of it.

00:20:05.740 I would say that a lot of the imams, especially in the last 10 years, 1.00

00:20:11.000 be it America, Canada, because of the rise of feminism and the change in the dynamics, 1.00

00:20:18.160 cultural dynamics, I'd say guys now are very, very afraid to rule on behalf of the men.

00:20:23.800 I mean, it's most likely they're leaning towards women.

00:20:27.640 And not just only in Muslim counseling, but non-Muslim counseling. 0.93

00:20:31.540 Usually now, people are leaning mostly towards the women because of a lot of the accusations 0.98

00:20:36.360 and things that have happened.

00:20:37.340 I mean, men have kind of been stained in the past, I would say, two decades.

00:20:41.560 And a lot of guys are very, very careful now to not rule.

00:20:44.800 It's almost like an affirmative action or, you know, kind of overcompensating on the other side.

00:20:50.040 That's what I've seen.

00:20:50.760 But in the UK, it's a little bit different.

00:20:52.120 Exactly.

00:20:52.640 In the UK, there's a problem with Hulak, women finance.

00:20:55.620 There is a problem with Hulak, yeah.

00:20:57.000 I understand that.

00:20:57.860 How does that relate to this?

00:20:59.240 Like, for example, the Hulak councils are not that many.

00:21:03.840 I know what you're talking about in the US.

00:21:05.580 But in the UK, we're kind of on the other side of the extreme.

00:21:08.520 I've seen the US stuff.

00:21:09.780 That's one side of the extreme.

00:21:10.920 A lot of my clients are from the UK, though.

00:21:12.640 I would say 70% of them.

00:21:14.260 Yeah, it's difficult to get a Hulak for a woman in the UK. 0.99

00:21:16.220 Very difficult.

00:21:17.080 But on what basis is it being asked?

00:21:19.340 Because you need to understand...

00:21:19.940 No, I get that.

00:21:20.580 But it's, like, for example, what I'm comparing it with is the Muslim countries.

00:21:24.000 Yeah.

00:21:24.180 Like, for example, if a woman wants to get a Hulak in Egypt or Morocco, it's much easier 0.99

00:21:29.780 for her to do that.

00:21:30.960 Yeah, but is there a reason why the scholars are refraining from giving the Hulak?

00:21:34.760 No, it's a demand of supply.

00:21:36.460 There's not enough councils.

00:21:37.500 In London, there's 1 million people, for example.

00:21:41.360 And when the Hulak cases happen, there's only, like, two or three major councils.

00:21:45.600 So they don't know where to go.

00:21:47.440 And there's a bit of a problem with authority as well.

00:21:49.180 Okay, so where to go is different to not being given.

00:21:51.900 So in that sense, we understand...

00:21:53.220 For instance, like, you know, the Sharia Council, the main one of Shahid and Haddad, the average

00:21:58.680 waiting time for a woman to get a Hulak is a very long time. 0.98

00:22:00.940 Like, more than what would be usually the case in...

00:22:03.400 But that's because of the supply and demand issue, not that...

00:22:06.900 Yes, it's the supply and demand, yeah.

00:22:08.080 Because what Sina Fahim is saying is that there's a favouritism going on.

00:22:10.360 That's what she's saying.

00:22:11.180 No, but there is that argument as well.

00:22:13.300 And we have to look at that.

00:22:14.840 We have to look at that because a lot of these Sharia Councils, we have to look at things

00:22:19.480 case by case.

00:22:21.240 For example, the one in London, I'm not saying there's favouritism, but there's a lot of

00:22:26.040 complaints.

00:22:27.200 There's a lot of complaints and we kind of have to look at that.

00:22:29.640 Well, the imams, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but the imams, unfortunately, they may know 1.00

00:22:33.060 the deen, but they don't know the counselling and human mind and behaviour as well.

00:22:36.280 So they also need to be understanding of how to actually coach or understand, you know,

00:22:43.520 the two people or get someone with them.

00:22:45.840 Because even though they have other...

00:22:47.840 Because I have a lot of shikhs and imams, you know, recommend me to help them throughout

00:22:53.200 their sessions or afterwards with their people, right?

00:22:56.540 Who've gone through it.

00:22:57.500 But they don't have a system set up.

00:22:59.240 And the authority as well, it's very much here and there, which community you belong

00:23:03.020 to.

00:23:03.760 If you know them very well, they're not going to go and actually, you know, give that

00:23:07.440 divorce to that particular family because they're close to that shikh and imam.

00:23:11.620 So these things do actually help it.

00:23:13.020 Okay, true.

00:23:14.100 The topic kind of diverts a bit.

00:23:15.340 So we are talking about divorce, but let's get back to marital disputes and in-laws getting

00:23:19.900 involved.

00:23:20.820 You should be a little bit quiet, maybe if there's anything you want to say.

00:23:22.920 If there's nothing, it's fine.

00:23:23.900 But getting in-laws involved, at what stage do you believe or at any stage?

00:23:31.660 For me personally, like if I have a marriage dispute that's severe, they have like in my

00:23:37.380 husband's culture, they go to the elders.

00:23:38.760 So by the elders, I don't mean your direct in-laws, but the oldest person in that community

00:23:42.880 because they tend to be wiser and they tend to have dealt with cases or dealt with situations

00:23:47.020 like that before.

00:23:48.040 And everyone respects the elder.

00:23:49.820 So kind of you get with the elder and they will discuss, you know, how to resolve this.

00:23:53.940 And I think that's a really good method.

00:23:56.000 I feel like the only reason that a woman would go to someone else is because she just wants 1.00

00:24:01.020 to release or she wants to kind of resolve it.

00:24:03.740 I don't think she would just go for the sake of backbiting or for the sake of, you know,

00:24:07.140 trying to cause more problems.

00:24:08.300 I think it would be a genuine need for her to go to talk to someone to kind of resolve

00:24:12.140 it.

00:24:12.660 Or maybe there's something that her husband's doing and she doesn't want to expose him.

00:24:15.840 And the, you know, the other option would be to go to someone that already knows him.

00:24:19.300 So I think it's fine, but there's a, there's a, only if there's a need, not just for the

00:24:24.560 sake of talking or backbiting or, and I don't think it's a good idea to go to the mothers 0.93

00:24:28.980 on either side.

00:24:31.280 Yeah.

00:24:31.720 So I guess it comes down to intention as well, because if you're going to your parents,

00:24:36.560 so you can backbite or in other words, release it, but not necessarily fix it or change your

00:24:43.740 ways.

00:24:44.180 Because remember, we're both at fault here.

00:24:45.520 It's not just him.

00:24:46.140 It's not just you.

00:24:47.660 You need to have that trust in that elder, whether it's your mother-in-law or even far

00:24:53.020 relative.

00:24:53.600 It doesn't have to be your direct in-laws.

00:24:55.660 It could be anybody that's older than you who has the same intention, which is to make

00:24:59.960 your marriage work.

00:25:00.780 The problem that I think we face a lot is, especially if you come from a South Asian

00:25:04.700 background, we have a very, very toxic culture, which teaches us that women should stay quiet 0.99

00:25:11.500 and, you know, marriage is tough.

00:25:14.160 It's a gamble.

00:25:14.860 So just deal with it.

00:25:16.280 And that's really not the case because now that we've figured out that as women, we have

00:25:21.000 a voice and we don't have to stay in a abusive relationship, when we do go to these elders,

00:25:26.460 they're not from our generation, nor would they understand it.

00:25:29.500 So their advice is what they would have done in their time.

00:25:32.840 So we have to make sure that when we are listening to the elders or whoever may it be, we have

00:25:37.800 to extract what is beneficial for us today and what is relatable for us.

00:25:42.180 And that's going to help us today to fix our marriage, not what worked for them back in

00:25:46.100 the days.

00:25:46.580 Because if you want your marriage to work, you will try all means.

00:25:50.060 It won't just be, oh yeah, I went to my mother-in-law.

00:25:52.180 Yes, I went to my aunt and it worked.

00:25:53.320 My dad said, no, that's it.

00:25:54.420 At the end, you will go to marriage counseling.

00:25:56.720 You will do therapy if you have to.

00:25:58.200 A lot of these problems arise because of a trauma within ourselves.

00:26:01.180 It's not necessarily because he's our foe and it's just him.

00:26:03.860 It's how we behave and our reaction to maybe something that he may have done.

00:26:07.400 And we have to understand that.

00:26:09.660 Can I just chime in a little bit?

00:26:12.980 Because I didn't address the first part of what you said before, which was about the

00:26:17.160 reality on the ground.

00:26:18.240 And you were talking about your parents are maybe the only people they can turn to, etc.

00:26:23.180 And then you talk about abuse and all this kind of thing.

00:26:24.960 I think it's really important to unpack all this stuff.

00:26:27.420 In the first instance, when you said that, well, it could be backbiting.

00:26:31.300 But then at the same time, like, you know, your parents are the only people they can turn to.

00:26:37.220 You know, there are usul principles, which are basically the principles of jurisprudence,

00:26:41.980 for like, example, I did mention in the initial articulation that one of the exceptions would

00:26:47.940 be health and safety issues.

00:26:49.220 So if we put that to the side for a second and consider the hukum or the ruling, because

00:26:53.700 if we start speaking in a sense, in a way which can undermine the rulings of Islam, then it

00:27:00.600 can be problematic in the sense that we say, well, in reality, these rulings are not actually

00:27:04.600 pragmatic enough for us.

00:27:05.920 No, I get that.

00:27:06.640 So if we speak like that, then in a sense, it can be problematic in a sense that, okay,

00:27:10.260 well, I have the golden ticket that I can do whatever I want because I've got trauma.

00:27:14.620 And then it becomes a self-flaggrating endeavor.

00:27:17.260 No one can hold anyone else to account, let alone themselves to account.

00:27:21.300 So there has to be a level of self-reflection, self-accountability, especially vis-a-vis the 0.53

00:27:28.160 Islamic ruling.

00:27:28.860 So with, for example, the ruling of backbiting, the asal of it is that it's haram.

00:27:34.640 This is very clear.

00:27:36.160 Like, you know, and the Prophet ﷺ told us what it is.

00:27:38.380 He says that it's dhikrika akha ka li ma akrahum, that you mention about your brother

00:27:42.380 and obviously your sister as well, that which they would hate, that which they would dislike.

00:27:47.300 So, for example, now going back to the issue of a man going to his mum or a woman going 0.69

00:27:52.080 to her mum, for example, and speaking about in intimate detail the stuff that's going on

00:27:57.800 in the house.

00:27:58.820 Now, there's not enough evidence in Islam to say that, well, actually, she can do that 1.00

00:28:03.640 because, quote, unquote, she's the only person that can turn to.

00:28:07.140 You can say, well, actually, is there harm?

00:28:08.900 Yes, but if there's harm, there's qawait, there's adoratubihan makhvurat, you know,

00:28:13.040 things which cause harm can make something halal or haram halal and stuff like that.

00:28:18.380 But if there's no actual physical harm, going and speaking about your partner, you know,

00:28:23.380 to your parents and stuff like this with the excuse of, okay, I'm going to try and heal

00:28:29.420 my traumas or whatever it may be, quote unquote.

00:28:32.080 Okay.

00:28:32.500 It's unacceptable.

00:28:33.840 Yeah, because that's why I said, because a lot of them, or generally all of us, don't

00:28:37.640 know our deen in order to be able to do what you just said.

00:28:41.360 So that's the problem.

00:28:42.720 No, but it's true.

00:28:43.600 That's the reason.

00:28:44.600 And so they just think, like you mentioned it as such a big word, backbiting, they wouldn't

00:28:47.840 even look at it as backbiting, talking about their own husband, just expressing what's

00:28:51.560 going on in the household.

00:28:52.720 That's the difference.

00:28:53.980 Interject.

00:28:55.740 I just want to connect a few points.

00:28:57.360 You spoke about khullah.

00:28:59.140 Yeah.

00:28:59.280 And then you spoke about the imams not being qualified.

00:29:02.880 I do talk about this in some of my lectures.

00:29:06.540 The problem is, when we're dealing with such a deep issue, is that the frame that we're

00:29:15.040 working within is not an Islamic one.

00:29:16.580 We don't live in a place where you can actually go to a Qadi and a judge, right? 0.99

00:29:21.960 So a lot of times our problems that we're discussing here, you have the issue of being

00:29:26.240 pragmatic and applicable versus theoretical.

00:29:29.660 And as you said, you cannot say, well, you know, it's not really working.

00:29:32.920 Therefore, let's put aside the issue.

00:29:34.160 Yeah, right, because it's not applicable.

00:29:35.800 We need to look at which frame are working.

00:29:37.660 Yes.

00:29:37.880 A lot of our problems when it comes to marriage, divorce, women being divorced. 0.58

00:29:40.800 A lot of times women being divorced, they'll say, we get thrown to the curb. 1.00

00:29:44.060 In Islamic State, the Amir is responsible for the um. 0.92

00:29:47.580 Because they'll say, well, we don't have anyone.

00:29:48.840 I don't have a father.

00:29:49.780 I don't have a Wali.

00:29:50.400 I'm a new Muslim.

00:29:51.180 Yes.

00:29:51.680 Boom, right?

00:29:52.260 By the way, right?

00:29:53.060 We get thrown to the curb.

00:29:54.040 I'm like, no, it doesn't really work like that.

00:29:56.120 And what do I say?

00:29:56.960 No, it's Islam's fault. 1.00

00:29:58.100 How many revert sisters leave Islam because they get divorced and they see a bad example 0.83

00:30:03.660 of Islam, right?

00:30:04.260 In Islamic frame, you wouldn't, right? 1.00

00:30:06.640 The Amir right away has to provide. 0.78

00:30:08.500 You know, the, the, uh, uh, Sanduq, you know, Zawaj or Sanduq, I mean, uh, Baitul Ma'ala

00:30:15.760 would basically be, uh, taking care of her and all that.

00:30:19.380 So it's not as simple, right?

00:30:20.700 We're talking here about living in America, UK, US, Canada, whatever.

00:30:25.960 A lot of these problems are because of the frame that we're within.

00:30:29.720 Um, I think obviously it's not part of our discussion, but just to remind our brothers

00:30:35.580 and our sisters that you can't fix one wrong with another. 1.00

00:30:40.260 You know, you can't say, well, Islamic rules are not really applicable right now.

00:30:43.600 The, the, the imams and the, the, uh, you know, are not really qualified to understand 1.00

00:30:49.560 the realities of what's happening.

00:30:51.500 We can, we need to fix this.

00:30:53.720 So counselors with imams training, we need to work on that to be able to fix it. 0.99

00:30:58.660 You're not going to fix the problem by like, God, just come to me.

00:31:00.900 I'm the one that's qualified or, you know, I know exactly, cause I've been through it.

00:31:04.140 A lot of the problems with counselors and I don't know.

00:31:09.900 I mean, in my experience, in my experience with, with sister counselors is that we have

00:31:15.520 been divorced and they go into counseling and coaching because they've experienced

00:31:19.420 and they want to help.

00:31:20.980 Right.

00:31:21.420 I always say to sisters, don't go to a divorced sister for advice because it shows up. 0.96

00:31:27.140 Wallah, that was coming.

00:31:29.340 Wallah, that was coming.

00:31:30.440 I'm sorry.

00:31:30.720 But, but finish a sentence.

00:31:33.180 Don't go to a divorced sister for advice.

00:31:36.020 Okay.

00:31:36.620 Just because she's been, go to a sister who has, was able to overcome the problem and

00:31:42.300 successfully continue her marriage.

00:31:44.140 Okay.

00:31:44.800 Then you get advice about divorce, about marriage.

00:31:47.120 Someone who has, was succeeded or succeeded in that, in that area.

00:31:51.680 It's about to kick off.

00:31:52.960 Sister Fima, you have, you have one and a half minutes starting now.

00:31:58.000 Well, firstly, I think when you are trained, regardless of anything, even if you're not

00:32:05.760 divorced, you won't be able to give the right sort of advice. 1.00

00:32:09.040 And firstly, counselors and coaches do not give advice.

00:32:11.960 They give guidance and they use technical, you know, psychological strategies and tools

00:32:16.460 and open up so that every case is for that particular person.

00:32:19.700 And I really don't believe that anyone should be giving any advice to anyone based on their

00:32:26.140 own personal experience.

00:32:27.680 Because if you are in a professional way, that would never happen anyway.

00:32:31.120 So you just got to make sure that they are trained.

00:32:33.680 And I've come across many couples who have gone through exactly what I've gone through,

00:32:37.680 even in my own divorce.

00:32:38.900 But I've actually taken sort of much more insight into the opposing sort of partner, like the

00:32:45.920 male, which you wouldn't expect from someone like me if you knew my background story, only

00:32:50.060 because I'm professional and I'm trained, even though I'm divorced and I'm single.

00:32:54.260 And at the same time, if you really have that mindset of understanding your professional

00:32:59.560 way, then don't make these sort of statements about don't go to somebody who's divorced.

00:33:04.120 And I don't believe you should go to somebody who's divorced, who hasn't healed, but definitely

00:33:08.500 go to a professional who is trained, accredited, and don't judge them for who they are.

00:33:14.060 Because again, a lot of women get judged on that particular way for being divorced and, 1.00

00:33:18.500 you know, they are not actually healed or they can't give the right advice.

00:33:24.640 Yeah, that's, I respect your opinion.

00:33:26.900 I was given my opinion, what I've experienced, what I've seen from my counselling.

00:33:31.140 Of course, two different counsellors are going to have different experiences as well.

00:33:37.980 Obviously, no counsellor is ma'asum, you know, infallible.

00:33:42.180 That's something we have to keep in mind, just because you're trained does not mean that

00:33:45.760 you're going to be 100% professional.

00:33:48.460 So it's a fallacy to believe that just because I have the qualifications, I'm not going to

00:33:52.620 make mistakes.

00:33:53.720 So obviously, you're going to look at the track record of that person, what's come out of

00:33:57.960 that, how many, you know, cases, the reviews and all that, right?

00:34:01.860 That's what we go based on.

00:34:03.740 Okay.

00:34:04.080 In my experience, a lot of the sisters who have gone through female counsellors, they

00:34:07.560 will come to a male counsellor.

00:34:09.860 And this is by Allah, I'm quoting what they say.

00:34:13.940 What's the reason?

00:34:14.840 I'm just curious.

00:34:15.260 I would say it's basically females are going to project their own issues onto our issues 1.00

00:34:21.800 and we'd rather hear from a man or take a man's approach onto this issue.

00:34:28.720 Again, let's go based on what I say.

00:34:30.320 And by Allah, I'm saying that this is my experience.

00:34:32.540 No, no, we trust you.

00:34:33.520 And it's not one case or it's not istifna or exception.

00:34:36.760 We're talking about, you know, Jamhur.

00:34:40.220 Exactly.

00:34:40.620 No, no, what you say, yeah.

00:34:42.060 The thing is, yes, it's important because I'll be honest with you, like one of the

00:34:45.020 reasons, one of the reasons I set up the show is because I genuinely, sometimes I want

00:34:48.220 to understand a female mind.

00:34:49.560 I want to understand it.

00:34:50.720 And I understand exactly.

00:34:51.660 That's why I believe where you're coming from.

00:34:52.640 They would maybe go to a female counsellor. 1.00

00:34:54.580 They would come and maybe a male counsellor would say, you know, let me speak to a female 1.00

00:34:57.260 counsellor.

00:34:57.680 Maybe I understand them better.

00:35:00.340 Just, I know I'm the host here, but I have, you know, sometimes I talk too much on the

00:35:04.740 show.

00:35:05.020 I'm holding myself back.

00:35:06.100 But what I say I want to give you based on experience, I've seen people and I would, I genuinely

00:35:11.920 believe this would make me benefit, inshallah, people, yeah.

00:35:14.460 Is like, for example, I'm just in double minds.

00:35:19.120 Should I give a, okay.

00:35:20.420 I'm just, I'm just going to say it on the sake of Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala, yeah.

00:35:22.360 Okay.

00:35:23.200 We are, we are married.

00:35:24.700 Yes, we are married.

00:35:25.560 Yeah.

00:35:25.840 Yeah.

00:35:26.300 Yeah.

00:35:26.700 Okay.

00:35:27.160 So sometimes we have arguments, arguments are normally a part of marriage.

00:35:30.620 Sometimes if I get into a marital dispute with my wife, yeah.

00:35:33.880 My mom would come and say to me, for example, what happened?

00:35:36.920 What happened?

00:35:37.640 What happened?

00:35:38.400 Wallahi l-adim.

00:35:39.220 Allah is my witness, yeah.

00:35:40.060 And my wife is here.

00:35:40.780 She's here, yeah.

00:35:41.220 She knows.

00:35:42.700 And wallahi, I tell my mom, I go, mom, you're me and my wife.

00:35:46.280 Don't worry.

00:35:47.000 Why?

00:35:47.580 And she'll come and complain to my brother.

00:35:48.680 You're brought up a medal for that one, brother.

00:35:50.680 Let me tell you why.

00:35:51.940 Let me tell you why.

00:35:52.840 You know why, yeah?

00:35:53.820 Because my mom will come and say, you know, what kind of last time are you?

00:35:56.620 I'm your mother.

00:35:57.160 You should open up to me.

00:35:57.900 And I go, mom, do you know why I don't actually, yeah?

00:36:00.000 You know why I don't?

00:36:00.840 Because the thing is here, arguments, let's suppose arguments say, my wife did something

00:36:04.760 that upset me.

00:36:05.860 Me telling my mom that, do you think my mom's going to be like, oh, our relationship is going

00:36:09.900 to improve more?

00:36:11.200 Wallahi.

00:36:11.640 And I say that, me and my wife, and I tell this to many people as well, that to have

00:36:15.280 this principle, never, ever, unless it's like, oh, I don't know, I took a gun out towards

00:36:19.760 my wife, or, you know, there was a sword involved, or something like this, yeah?

00:36:23.020 That's understandable.

00:36:23.820 Like you said, life and death, yeah?

00:36:25.080 But make it a principle.

00:36:27.220 Do not.

00:36:28.760 Petty arguments, whatever it may be, wife can get upset, the husband can get upset, make

00:36:32.980 it a principle.

00:36:34.340 No, we are not going to tell you.

00:36:36.280 Why?

00:36:36.880 Because you're self-sabotaging.

00:36:38.920 Because the moment you say that, argument said, if my wife goes and says, and he said

00:36:42.400 this, and he upset me, do you think her mom's going to be like, my mother's going to be

00:36:45.240 like, oh, I increased their love towards my son-in-law more?

00:36:48.440 No.

00:36:48.740 She's going to be like, why is he making my daughter upset?

00:36:49.920 If I go to my mom, and I say to my mom, you know, my wife did this, and this stuff, why

00:36:54.220 does she do that? 1.00

00:36:55.480 The problem is you're self-sabotaging now, and you're ruining that relationship.

00:36:59.340 But that's one perspective.

00:37:00.460 That is one perspective, but I believe, genuinely, the moment the in-laws start getting, like,

00:37:06.640 towards the daughter-in-law, or to the son-in-law, from there, it's chaos.

00:37:11.080 I'll just want to add one, maybe just a theoretical point, since I haven't been in the fields of

00:37:16.580 counselling, as you guys have, or many of you have, which is that it just makes sense

00:37:21.160 on a theoretical level, just to think that, or if you love someone more, which, romantic

00:37:25.620 love is a very powerful thing, now, if the husband and wife love each other quite a lot,

00:37:29.060 or they have love for each other, now, if there's a fallout, they're more likely, this

00:37:34.980 is just me thinking, to forgive each other afterwards.

00:37:37.400 Why?

00:37:37.740 Because love is a great incentive to forgive.

00:37:41.160 But that level of romantic love that a partner has for the other partner, the husband

00:37:45.340 for the wife, and vice versa, is unlikely to be had by the in-laws.

00:37:50.100 Yes.

00:37:50.320 So when the fallout happens now, you might have forgiven your wife, or you might have

00:37:55.820 forgiven your husband, but we don't know if your in-laws have forgiven them.

00:37:58.900 That is the point, Akin.

00:38:00.260 They're not going to, and that's why in my country, they say that when the wife and

00:38:03.520 her husband argues, don't get involved, because you know why?

00:38:05.780 They're going to both turn on you.

00:38:07.480 They're going to turn on you.

00:38:08.480 Oh, why did you get involved for?

00:38:09.560 We all came.

00:38:10.020 I was back in your corner, and now you switch on.

00:38:14.440 Mom, don't get involved.

00:38:15.680 I love him so much.

00:38:16.540 Or like, and you're like, no, no, no, that was the magic in your back in your corner.

00:38:19.780 Does your dad get involved?

00:38:21.720 No.

00:38:22.180 My dad doesn't get involved.

00:38:23.100 Why not?

00:38:23.520 At all.

00:38:24.200 Like, when I mean, like, to be honest, like, I don't really, like, when it comes to my dad,

00:38:27.780 I don't go to my dad.

00:38:28.360 You know with men, like, oh, dad, my wife.

00:38:30.100 I don't really do that, yeah?

00:38:31.480 But like, when it comes to my mom, my mom, like, for something like, okay, oh, you look

00:38:35.460 a bit upset today.

00:38:36.160 What happened?

00:38:36.900 It's something, and I'm like, mom, don't worry.

00:38:38.400 It's not that deep, because to me, I can, it's my wife.

00:38:41.340 I can forgive and move on.

00:38:42.760 But if I tell her, like I said before, it's just going to be like, oh, what did she do

00:38:46.480 that for?

00:38:47.040 And the same works and vice versa.

00:38:49.420 So personally, I would say, unless it's something really, where you're like, you know what?

00:38:53.820 I've decided, I'm going to end it.

00:38:55.440 Or whatever it may be, yeah?

00:38:56.760 And we know, obviously, sisters can be more emotional, yeah?

00:38:59.760 That's, you know, if there's any families watching this, that's a reality.

00:39:03.040 Yes, the left side of the brain and the right side of the brain operates differently

00:39:06.340 between men and women.

00:39:07.360 May Allah bless you, sister Fahima.

00:39:08.660 Yes, exactly.

00:39:09.280 So that's the neuroscience behind it.

00:39:12.260 So the point is, and sometimes sisters tend to initiate divorce more, 70% to 80%. 0.65

00:39:16.740 Actually, it's very interesting.

00:39:17.640 If she's earning more than her husband, it goes to 80%, yeah? 0.98

00:39:22.780 That's what statistics are showing, yeah?

00:39:23.900 So from that angle, you know, the wife might say something. 0.95

00:39:27.100 But anyways.

00:39:27.740 But I think with the genders, it might differ slightly.

00:39:29.740 Because when I was married, if I was to go to my mom, she'd still take my husband's

00:39:35.480 side at the time.

00:39:35.740 That's rare.

00:39:36.240 That's rare.

00:39:37.540 I hope everyone was like that.

00:39:39.040 Yeah, because she wanted to make it work.

00:39:40.920 And she's like, you calm yourself down, Fahima, this whatever it is.

00:39:44.120 May Allah bless you, mom.

00:39:44.940 This is a mother-in-law that everyone should have.

00:39:46.740 That's what I'm saying.

00:39:46.780 It depends on the parents.

00:39:47.960 Yes, exactly, exactly.

00:39:49.420 Sisters, you guys have been a bit quiet.

00:39:50.720 I don't know.

00:39:50.940 What's your take on the whole matter?

00:39:52.520 Like, do you agree?

00:39:53.580 Do you disagree?

00:39:54.300 You know, my statement, hijabs, whatever, Gabriel.

00:39:57.420 What's your take on it?

00:39:58.500 Do you know, you said, my dear sister, what was your name?

00:40:00.780 I forgot.

00:40:01.520 I was.

00:40:02.000 Sister Aya, you said that, you mentioned it, that you got divorced.

00:40:08.060 Obviously, I don't want to get personal, but is there an experience?

00:40:10.020 Maybe it could be by your friends, getting in-laws involved.

00:40:12.820 Is it detrimental?

00:40:14.360 Would you?

00:40:14.980 Would you not?

00:40:15.620 You can make it general.

00:40:16.320 It doesn't need to be specific to yourself.

00:40:17.240 Um, again, what I say is just based on my case.

00:40:22.140 And in my case, it was detrimental.

00:40:23.900 And I think it was actually one of the reasons why our divorce did happen.

00:40:28.580 But at the same time, I think I just want everyone to remember that just because they're

00:40:34.920 your elders and they have more knowledge, it doesn't mean that they are necessarily right.

00:40:39.120 And it doesn't mean that you have to believe and act upon 99% of their words.

00:40:44.940 We've got so much knowledge, alhamdulillah.

00:40:47.240 Everywhere around us, we've got marriage counselors, we've got therapists, we've got

00:40:50.380 so many therapies.

00:40:52.520 You have to find your way through this and you have to extract what's beneficial for you.

00:40:58.100 So your elder might say, look, forgive him.

00:41:00.500 And maybe you just needed that nudge to forgive him.

00:41:02.980 Maybe if you had resulted to look in Google or social media, a lot of us now travel to,

00:41:08.640 it would have made you hate him even more.

00:41:10.840 And it's such a petty thing.

00:41:12.040 Like Ali said, if it's something small, try to forgive him and go down.

00:41:17.020 On that route rather than calling up your mom or your dad and getting their opinion of it.

00:41:22.040 You have to learn what works for you.

00:41:26.640 But getting the information from all sources, not just one thing.

00:41:32.920 Because even though you might go to a marriage counselor, they're not going to have all the answers for you.

00:41:38.800 Because your case is unique to you and your opinion, your childhood, your upbringing, your family.

00:41:44.780 So learn to extract what works for me from all the resources around you before you give up on that marriage.

00:41:51.960 I can just maybe.

00:41:54.440 It's interesting.

00:41:55.360 This whole elder framework, I'm not really privy to it.

00:41:58.260 I'll be honest.

00:41:58.900 Like I just go into the elders and stuff like that.

00:42:01.740 It's not really something we maybe do in our culture as much as the subcontinent.

00:42:06.380 But what I'll say is there's a few things.

00:42:08.300 I was reading Jordan Peterson's book, actually, of all books.

00:42:13.720 And the newest one, The Twelve More Rules.

00:42:15.580 And at the end of that book, he was speaking in detail about negotiating with your partner and stuff like that.

00:42:21.720 What I found interesting is that he was like, you know, he was saying that you need to be able to negotiate and flesh these things out, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:42:29.300 And then he started talking about tradition.

00:42:31.940 Now, the issue of tradition is people have found ways to make things work for thousands of years.

00:42:37.460 Now, that's what tradition really is.

00:42:39.120 People have found ways to make things work for thousands of years.

00:42:42.540 And we have a scholarly tradition.

00:42:44.620 We have, I don't know what the subcontinent tradition looks like.

00:42:47.300 The elders, they kind of know how to resolve issues.

00:42:50.280 Now, the issue is when people try and reinvent the wheel in the age of social media, if you get someone trying to reinvent the wheel.

00:42:56.480 So, now I want to know how to make this work.

00:43:00.180 And let's go to a counselor.

00:43:01.160 Let's go to a psychotherapist.

00:43:02.420 Let's go, let's take an antidepressant.

00:43:04.440 And it's this cocktail of trial and error.

00:43:08.040 In many ways, it can be inefficient.

00:43:10.700 I'm not saying it is necessarily inefficient.

00:43:12.920 That's one point out of the way it can be.

00:43:14.420 So, you have to kind of, yes, on the one hand, there is a limitation, a clear limitation with the elder framework, whatever that may be.

00:43:20.640 But there's also a very major limitation with the new modern framework as well, the social media framework, the antidepressants.

00:43:25.660 So, what do they do then?

00:43:27.280 What I think people need to realize is that everyone has an agenda and everything has assumptions.

00:43:33.040 So, for example, when someone is doing counseling, and if they're doing psychoanalytic counseling, for instance, Freudian psychoanalytic type counseling, or talking therapy, or these kind of things, there is an assumption here.

00:43:46.200 And quite frankly, I think some of it is problematic from a science perspective.

00:43:50.280 And once again, I'm just speaking theoretical.

00:43:52.520 But, for instance, the psychoanalytic framework, one of the things that they assume, there's kind of like a moral ambiguity.

00:43:59.700 They don't tell you what's right and wrong.

00:44:01.200 In fact, it's inappropriate for them to tell you what's right and wrong.

00:44:03.780 I think this, you know, for example, this was, if you look at, in famous, in culture, there was just the Sopranos.

00:44:13.280 Right.

00:44:13.560 And so, this idea of the woman.

00:44:15.240 You know, the Matthew?

00:44:16.000 Yes, the series.

00:44:17.660 It was a famous series in the 90s.

00:44:19.540 There's a man going to, like, a woman, and she was, you know, giving him advice and so on.

00:44:24.260 And at one point, and this, I watched it some time ago, like the 90s or something, I don't know when it came out.

00:44:30.580 But there was one particular episode, which was very interesting, and I still remember, where they were criticizing the counselor system by saying, this is like a moral relativism.

00:44:40.340 You can't tell, I mean, one guy was speaking to the counselor, the woman that was speaking to Tony, the mafia leader.

00:44:47.300 And he was saying, you can't even tell him that what you're doing is morally wrong.

00:44:51.000 You see what the point is?

00:44:51.680 So, when you go to a counselor, you're not going to expect the counselor to tell you, look, what you're doing is haram.

00:44:56.080 What you're doing is haram.

00:44:57.080 Exactly.

00:44:57.520 That's one very important thing.

00:44:58.900 Now, another thing I'd add to that is, so, moral guidance and psychospiritual development are inextricably linked.

00:45:05.320 What counseling does is it actually separates them, which is a very dangerous thing from our perspective, because it can lead to moral relativism.

00:45:11.940 Another thing I'd add to that is, actually, it can be detrimental in so much as it can make you blame your parents, especially counseling in the UK.

00:45:20.200 I know in any kind of psychoanalysis, if you've studied it on a theoretical level, you'll know that psychoanalysis, quite frankly, it traces everything back to your upbringing.

00:45:30.620 So, we've heard the buzz term, daddy issues, for example, in the popular culture.

00:45:35.840 This daddy issues thing is overplayed.

00:45:37.820 Why is it overplayed?

00:45:38.600 Because it's based on psychoanalytic assumptions.

00:45:41.160 A woman has some traumatic event.

00:45:42.900 Oh, it's probably because she has some daddy issues. 1.00

00:45:45.200 But you're getting that from...

00:45:46.240 No, no.

00:45:46.500 The reason why they're saying that is because the assumption of Freudian psychoanalytic frameworks is that most of your traumas can be traced back to something that's happening in your early life.

00:45:56.320 Which can be true. 0.85

00:45:57.320 Which can be true. 0.85

00:45:58.100 I'm not saying it's really false.

00:45:59.000 It is true.

00:46:00.000 No, no.

00:46:00.380 It's not something you can say is true or isn't true.

00:46:03.260 It's an assumption.

00:46:03.860 Everything is an assumption when it comes to science.

00:46:06.580 No, it's an assumption.

00:46:06.960 Psychology.

00:46:07.660 No, no.

00:46:08.200 That's the point.

00:46:08.740 The difference between something which is verifiable from the scientific method and an assumption of it.

00:46:15.040 It's an assumption of something which is used to prove a point rather than something which is improved from the scientific method.

00:46:20.720 So, I mean, sorry to say, but you're saying it's true.

00:46:24.260 It's kind of the theoretical underpinnings of psychoanalysis might be kind of ambiguous to yourself in the sense that, for example,

00:46:31.940 Karl Popper, famous, he died in 1994, he propounded falsification, one of the things which are now cornerstone of the scientific method.

00:46:41.580 He referred to the whole venture of psychology as a pseudoscience.

00:46:46.040 It doesn't even meet the threshold of natural sciences.

00:46:49.560 So, psychoanalysis is just one school of thought within psychology.

00:46:53.520 And so, to say something that's fully true is not plausible from a scientific perspective.

00:46:57.820 Absolutely. It's only from certain amounts of research and it might apply to a certain group of people.

00:47:02.820 Absolutely correct.

00:47:03.820 Let me just finish the point because there's a bit more answer to add to this, which is that when you do the psychotherapy, like talking therapy and these kind of things here,

00:47:11.060 a lot of people come out of it hating their parents.

00:47:13.280 Why? Because it was your dad's fault that that happened.

00:47:15.740 It was your mum's fault that that happened.

00:47:16.980 It goes back to this kind of thing.

00:47:18.240 From an Islamic perspective, this penting up of resentment to your parents is more dangerous sometimes than it is beneficial. 0.91

00:47:25.540 Because for us, one of the apex moralities is that you're meant to be good to both of your parents.

00:47:31.160 So, if you go to a counsellor and they say, well, what happened when you were eight years old, nine years old?

00:47:34.760 Oh, your mum did that to you?

00:47:35.640 You're done.

00:47:35.920 Okay.

00:47:36.460 So, then you start to shift blame, if you like.

00:47:39.880 True.

00:47:40.220 Not taking accountability.

00:47:42.060 Yeah.

00:47:42.420 And it didn't say some that would live, you know.

00:47:43.920 So, in summary, therefore, I'll say that psychoanalysis or talking therapy is just one methodology of psychology.

00:47:51.100 There's many others.

00:47:51.940 There's behavioral psychology.

00:47:53.120 There's the CBT method that they use also in the NHS, the cognitive behavioral therapy method.

00:47:58.380 All of them have different assumptions.

00:48:00.160 I'm not saying there's no truth in any of them.

00:48:02.100 I'm just saying we have to be skeptical of all of them.

00:48:04.120 Exactly.

00:48:04.480 That's what I'm saying.

00:48:04.940 Except the Quran and the Sunnah. 0.57

00:48:06.420 Which is different.

00:48:07.600 Which is different.

00:48:08.180 I think one very observable phenomenon that we can see is we have a lot of psychologists, psychiatrists, counselors, coaches, you name.

00:48:19.720 They've increased a lot, wouldn't you agree, over the last decade or so.

00:48:24.660 However, divorce has also increased.

00:48:28.320 Right?

00:48:29.020 But not all of them go to them.

00:48:30.240 You think it's self-healing?

00:48:32.380 I do believe that.

00:48:33.380 The Muslim community, they hardly seek most of these things.

00:48:36.340 In fact, they're still learning.

00:48:36.940 It's not just about the Muslim community.

00:48:38.020 We have to understand there's going to be a very close, there's a correlation between the non-Muslims and the Muslims. 1.00

00:48:43.980 The Muslims, indeed, we follow within a few years behind most of the things.

00:48:48.260 As the Prophet ﷺ said, you will follow them.

00:48:50.480 Inch by inch.

00:48:51.040 Yeah.

00:48:51.260 So, to refer to established causation, we would need some additional.

00:48:54.980 No doubt.

00:48:56.380 I think it's beyond the scope of this podcast.

00:48:58.420 We can do that, no doubt.

00:48:59.780 But, just on an observable term, we see that there's been a lot of Muslim counselors, let's say within the Muslim community.

00:49:10.340 A lot of Muslim coaches, counselors, and so on.

00:49:14.720 And people do go.

00:49:15.760 I mean, people are busy.

00:49:17.040 I'm sure you're busy.

00:49:18.260 Full.

00:49:18.700 And the ones that I know are full.

00:49:20.460 Yet still, a lot of problems are still taking place.

00:49:25.980 A lot of talaq, a lot of issues are still taking place.

00:49:29.420 Why are we not solving these problems?

00:49:31.460 My argument would be this, and I agree with you, is that looking at most of the counselors, they have gone through CBT training.

00:49:40.120 They've gone through secular training.

00:49:42.140 They've done their master's, PhDs.

00:49:43.720 How many of them have Islamic qualifications?

00:49:46.320 That would be my argument.

00:49:47.460 I would like to see.

00:49:48.540 Sure.

00:49:48.900 Yeah, sure.

00:49:49.360 Because the ones that I know, the ones that I do, it's not.

00:49:52.440 Or they will put, they will filter the Islamic paradigm through a secular paradigm as opposed to the other way around. 0.71

00:50:02.040 It's true.

00:50:02.480 And that's detrimental.

00:50:03.660 You're going there to help, and it's going to end your marriage further.

00:50:06.100 But I think the other point is a lot of people go seeking counseling and marital sort of like coaches is because it's right at the end of that relationship anyway.

00:50:14.600 So that's the other reason why it does fail, because they're actually already resenting each other, and they think this is my last resort.

00:50:20.660 And I always advise them, as soon as you feel that you're just tolerating your relationship and it's not that great, that's when you see them.

00:50:26.100 And that's where some of these therapies and things can work.

00:50:29.180 And there's a lot of fraud around it and fake coaches and counselors or whatever they may be as well, not particularly aligned with Islam or even the training itself.

00:50:38.920 But I really do think that people talk to people professionally when they're actually at the last end of it.

00:50:44.720 I disagree with that a little bit, because just taking my friend as an example, she's been married for four years.

00:50:52.040 She's happy.

00:50:53.140 She's healthy.

00:50:53.680 She's got a child.

00:50:54.500 She lives with her family.

00:50:55.140 She lives with her in-laws.

00:50:56.160 I mean, but ever since they had a baby, it's affected their relationship.

00:51:01.480 And she would often come to me for advice, and I would help her, and it would be beneficial advice because I don't want to break a home.

00:51:09.020 So she obviously didn't want to go to her in-laws nor to her family or to her sisters.

00:51:14.140 So she decided, I'm going to get marriage coaching.

00:51:17.140 And she had a look on Instagram because that's where we always are these days.

00:51:20.520 And she found a newly qualified therapist, I think she was, or she must have had a few years under her belt.

00:51:29.200 And she was charging three grand for the entire session. 0.55

00:51:32.740 And my friend was like, shall I?

00:51:34.360 Is there a holiday involved?

00:51:35.520 Shall I not?

00:51:37.300 Yeah, you'd think.

00:51:38.640 And I said, look, don't do it.

00:51:40.340 So what she decided to do was read the reviews.

00:51:42.220 And the reviews, she noticed women were saying, subhanAllah, after my therapy coaching, my husband now sits and has dinner with me.

00:51:49.920 And she realized that actually, she had nowhere near as bad problems as these other women did, because it was all coming down to her perspective.

00:52:00.080 So if you want to make a minor problem big, all you've got to do is focus on it and just feed it.

00:52:07.160 So I think that's another thing.

00:52:10.680 I forgot my train of thought now.

00:52:12.400 I'm so sorry.

00:52:13.140 No, no, that's okay.

00:52:13.960 Maybe just think about it, sister.

00:52:15.760 For me personally, I don't think going to any form of, you know, psychology or counselling background is a good idea.

00:52:22.780 I think that's a really bad idea.

00:52:24.300 I think if you and your husband cannot sort it out between yourself, there's no one else that's going to help you.

00:52:29.120 I think you're now a married couple.

00:52:30.700 You should be mature enough to deal with that situation.

00:52:33.040 If you go to a...

00:52:33.940 You already used it once.

00:52:36.300 I'm sorry.

00:52:36.980 I forgot about that.

00:52:38.100 Not one rule.

00:52:38.960 No.

00:52:39.600 They're disagreeing with each other.

00:52:40.480 Do you want to take my hand?

00:52:41.320 This is not turning out.

00:52:43.080 I mean, we thought it would, huh?

00:52:44.560 Yeah.

00:52:44.900 Yeah, Karen, it's just there.

00:52:46.560 I just don't think it's a good idea.

00:52:48.940 There is no...

00:52:50.220 Because I studied psychology for three years and then I've done my master's in sociology and I don't see any benefit in it in terms of, you know, aiding each other in the marriage.

00:52:58.380 Because what that's going to do is it's going to now reveal, oh, your husband has trauma.

00:53:02.040 He has these childhood problems.

00:53:03.260 You have these childhood problems.

00:53:04.640 You need to learn to love yourself.

00:53:05.680 Your husband needs to learn to love himself.

00:53:07.980 So now you two need to separate.

00:53:09.360 You need to find yourself.

00:53:10.300 You need to find who you are.

00:53:11.620 This marriage now is, it's got rid of your identity. 0.87

00:53:14.380 You don't know who you are anymore.

00:53:15.820 So I feel like once you go to these counselors...

00:53:18.300 It's an extreme skepticism and extreme acceptance.

00:53:21.660 No, it's reality.

00:53:23.460 Is there anyone in this world who doesn't have some form of trauma?

00:53:27.040 Exactly.

00:53:27.560 True.

00:53:28.100 Yeah, but what these psychologists are doing is they're basically bringing up this trauma when it hasn't affected you that much.

00:53:33.500 But now it's on the surface.

00:53:35.260 Can I just...

00:53:37.080 Sister Ayah, do you remember your point?

00:53:38.780 Yeah.

00:53:39.260 Just quickly and then we'll come to hijab. 0.98

00:53:40.380 I just wanted to say that if we go to seek help, there is nothing shameful or wrong about that.

00:53:46.720 In fact, I think we need to seek help because there is only so much that our brain knows and so much experience that we have.

00:53:54.080 You can't just sit there and think, right, I'm not going to go to psychologists.

00:53:56.400 I'm not going to get marriage counseling.

00:53:57.820 I can't go to my in-laws, can't go to my parents, can't go to my friends.

00:54:01.280 So I guess I'm going to decide I'm going to get a divorce and that's the end of your marriage.

00:54:05.300 We have to try to get help.

00:54:07.980 But above all, we have to remember our intention.

00:54:11.320 You have to make intention that, yeah, love, please help me understand this and process this in a way it's going to benefit my marriage.

00:54:17.660 You're not going there to ask the therapist or the counselor, right, tell me my traumas.

00:54:23.580 I want to know exactly what it is.

00:54:24.960 Therefore, I can relive the pain and then go away and focus on it.

00:54:28.360 They are merely just trying to outline what could have been the cause of this dispute that you had.

00:54:34.720 So in the future, you don't repeat it.

00:54:37.440 And yes, it involves that we go back to what caused the trauma, which emerges pain.

00:54:42.380 But the pain has already been caused.

00:54:44.660 You're just reliving it every single day, which is affecting your marriage and your relationship with your family, friends.

00:54:50.280 And potentially, you're obviously setting an example to your children as well.

00:54:55.520 So by revisiting trauma, that's not necessarily a bad thing.

00:54:58.700 I think we, especially the Asian culture, we are told, right, don't talk about it, especially with men.

00:55:03.660 You can't cry. You can't talk about it.

00:55:06.060 Man up. Be a man.

00:55:07.620 And that is why we have so many broken men today.

00:55:10.840 And it's so sad to see that when there was help all along, all they needed to do was maybe have that cry,

00:55:16.480 was maybe reach out to a psychologist or therapist or maybe just get some form of guidance.

00:55:21.180 We cannot delete that from the equation.

00:55:23.500 That is part of the equation.

00:55:24.660 We have Allah, we have therapy, and then we have ourselves to make our own decisions.

00:55:29.220 Or in-laws, which they can open up the in-laws, which is a discussion at hand.

00:55:32.340 I don't disagree with anything she just said there.

00:55:35.920 I think that she, I mean, I think she's making a valid point.

00:55:39.160 The question of to what extent are counsellors, marriage counsellors or counsellors themselves effective?

00:55:46.060 There's two questions there, really, if you think about this.

00:55:48.120 To what extent are marriage counsellors effective in saving marriages?

00:55:51.700 And another question is to what extent are counsellors effective in general?

00:55:55.340 What kind of counsellors are most effective?

00:55:57.940 These are the kinds of questions we've got our hand here.

00:55:59.340 I don't know the answer to the first one.

00:56:01.100 I'm going to have to look at some studies to see to what extent are marriage counsellors effective.

00:56:05.640 I think the question of the second one, there is good effect.

00:56:08.140 I think there's evidence of that.

00:56:09.960 Certainly, like, psychotherapy has its benefits.

00:56:13.220 CBT has its benefits.

00:56:15.440 All of that has its benefits.

00:56:16.840 You can approach all of those things as a Muslim with no problem.

00:56:20.840 However, you need to know the assumptions of these things.

00:56:23.360 And as a Muslim with a moral compass, you also need to realise that I'm saying something now, for example, in the counselling session, which I myself deem to be, for example, morally okay, morally aberrational, morally halal or haram. 0.92

00:56:37.200 Even though this person in front of me might acquiesce or reassure me that what I'm doing is okay.

00:56:42.900 Which is why I think the best kind of counselling is a synthesis between someone who knows, as you've said, Gabriel, it's like someone who knows something of the Islamic sciences, something of Islamic spirituality.

00:56:51.960 And at the same time, from our perspective, these methods and approaches and stuff like that.

00:56:57.120 Which is hard to find.

00:56:58.020 It's hard to find, but I think there's a need for that.

00:57:00.420 There's a need for now Muslims to produce their own methodologies, which touch upon both psycho and spiritual realms of the equation. 1.00

00:57:09.840 I think experimental psychology has taken over now more and more.

00:57:15.020 And I do believe that you can connect a lot of the procedures and processes to the sunnah of the Prophet ﷺ.

00:57:22.480 Because we have, like, for example, just the basic hadith, al-Din al-Masih.

00:57:26.040 The Prophet ﷺ said that this deen is counselling advice.

00:57:30.760 When you put that in the context and you look at the sirah of the Prophet ﷺ, the sahaba were not shy to go to the Prophet ﷺ.

00:57:37.640 That's how much we learn from the hadith of the Prophet ﷺ with regards to, you have the fiqh of marriage, the fiqh of divorce, you have the fiqh of so many, right? 0.71

00:57:46.100 And if you look at the hadith, it would be a sahabi or sahabiyat where we're going to the Prophet ﷺ, having some form of interaction.

00:57:53.620 He's advising them, but based on what?

00:57:56.620 What's the advice based on?

00:57:57.940 It's based on the revelation of Allah ﷻ, the Quran and the Sunnah.

00:58:00.660 If you're differing in something, this is a difference.

00:58:07.200 And go back to Allah and His Messenger.

00:58:08.920 I wanted to add to that.

00:58:10.060 There are things that I was, because I was looking into this kind of like informally myself.

00:58:14.020 The tensions between the Islamic system or Islamic hadith, Islamic, you know, vision, if you like.

00:58:21.880 In terms of psychological preparation, if you want to call it that, or counseling, what do you want to call it?

00:58:26.680 And psychoanalytic methods.

00:58:27.900 And there are a few things I want to kind of outline here, but before I do so, I think it's important to realize.

00:58:35.420 Actually, let me mention those first.

00:58:36.960 So, for example, one of the things that the Prophet ﷺ does a lot, and has done throughout the seerah, which you'd never find a counselor doing.

00:58:44.060 Okay?

00:58:44.640 Nowadays, and I say this tentatively, or very rarely, seldomly, would you find a counselor doing, a counselor with non-religious affiliation,

00:58:53.300 is tell somebody, not only that they're wrong, but that they have to persevere through the, whatever is trauma, so-called trauma they're going through.

00:59:01.020 Right?

00:59:01.160 So, for example, there's a very famous hadith, the companions come to the Prophet Muhammad ﷺ.

00:59:06.880 This is, they were being, not just boycotted, but they were being tortured.

00:59:11.080 Tortured.

00:59:12.080 Okay.

00:59:12.760 And then the Prophet ﷺ, the way he responded to that, would be completely against all counseling instruction.

00:59:20.940 Bilal, I'm talking about skinheads.

00:59:22.300 Well, yeah, no, it's not Bilal, it's this, I think this is, Jabodun Abdullah's, the rabid hadith, and he said that, basically, the Prophet ﷺ said that,

00:59:31.820 people before you, their skins were, their skins were taken by the, you know, the M-shippah, basically combs of things. 1.00

00:59:39.240 So, in other words, don't complain.

00:59:40.480 Right.

00:59:40.740 Wow.

00:59:41.140 Don't complain.

00:59:41.960 Now, the question is, will the counselor ever tell you, stop complaining?

00:59:44.760 Never.

00:59:45.260 Now, this is the point.

00:59:46.160 There's things which I can't do.

00:59:47.660 One thing is, there's another thing, which is, there's a hadith of the Prophet Muhammad ﷺ,

00:59:52.280 which is also narrated by Abu Huraira in Bukhara al-Muslim.

00:59:57.260 Very famous hadith.

00:59:58.720 المؤمن القوي خير و أحب إلا الله من المؤمن الضعفة في كل خير.

01:00:03.480 And it keeps going.

01:00:04.360 I'll tell you the hadith.

01:00:05.280 The strong believer is better and more beloved to Allah than the weak believer, and both of them is good.

01:00:10.120 But then the Prophet ﷺ continues. 0.80

01:00:11.940 He gives us now advice of how to be a strong mu'min, how to be a strong person, how to be resilient.

01:00:17.240 So he gives, number one, he says,

01:00:18.800 Yes, be cautious about that which is going to benefit you.

01:00:23.280 And seek refuge in Allah, number two.

01:00:27.580 And number three,

01:00:28.740 This is very important.

01:00:32.040 Do not quit when you are afflicted with trauma.

01:00:35.440 Wow.

01:00:36.060 Do not quit.

01:00:36.640 So, can you imagine now, nowadays we're weakened as a society, because we don't have people telling us not to quit.

01:00:42.400 We don't have the mental fortitude and resilience that we once had.

01:00:45.640 Because we don't have someone like the Prophet ﷺ telling us, don't quit.

01:00:48.740 You see?

01:00:49.620 So, a counsellor today will tell you, yes, you're within your right to feel this pain, and this and that, and this is a trauma, and all those kind of things.

01:00:55.740 And they won't tell you, do not quit.

01:00:58.180 Do this and that.

01:00:58.880 Don't complain.

01:00:59.860 Stop complaining.

01:01:00.580 It's because of your fault.

01:01:01.900 Now, let me tell you, there's a shift here that I've seen.

01:01:04.680 Because I was looking at Carl Jung, who was one of the founding fathers of psychoanalysis itself.

01:01:11.180 Actually, there was three major founding fathers.

01:01:13.400 And Carl Jung was one of them.

01:01:14.680 And I was seeing the clients that he had in the early days.

01:01:19.920 There's videos of it online, even.

01:01:22.300 And she was, there was a particular woman that I was watching.

01:01:25.660 She was saying that when Carl Jung was doing the therapy session with her, she would get angry.

01:01:31.600 She'd stand up and get angry and smash the door behind her. 1.00

01:01:34.240 And she was telling her, this is online, right?

01:01:36.780 And then the interviewer asked her, did you come back?

01:01:38.760 She said, yeah, I came back.

01:01:40.640 Carl Jung, even though he was a psychoanalyst, he had a more interrogative style.

01:01:45.000 He put it on, he stuck it on her.

01:01:46.680 He said, it was your fault.

01:01:47.920 Like the Peter Tripp show.

01:01:48.920 Yeah, it's kind of like that.

01:01:50.200 So it was kind of like what you would expect in an interrogation.

01:01:53.400 Exactly.

01:01:54.000 Because if you want to get into the crevices of your own psyche, and you want to explore what your problem is,

01:01:59.380 then self-accountability is at the core of that.

01:02:01.880 Exactly.

01:02:02.440 But modern counseling eliminates this kind of thing.

01:02:05.340 Exactly.

01:02:05.900 And this is a problem.

01:02:06.600 May Allah bless you.

01:02:07.900 We're going to wrap up soon.

01:02:08.780 Just a few things I want to touch up on here.

01:02:10.480 It's like you said, yeah?

01:02:11.620 And when I, sometimes I'm here, I do the show, et cetera.

01:02:14.480 And even the show that we did about men want career-wise, sports-based kind of stuff, yeah?

01:02:18.640 We talked about this.

01:02:19.860 The comments, I think we've got 4,000 comments, yeah?

01:02:21.940 Et cetera.

01:02:22.520 And the thing is, look, anytime I mention certain, whatever it may be, and I see the same from our sister's side.

01:02:27.040 When they say something pertaining to men, I'm genuinely, I see it as they want the best for us.

01:02:31.960 Exactly.

01:02:32.240 But when I say this, and I'm just talking to those that are watching, when I say it mentions certain stuff, we are men, yeah?

01:02:38.160 We know what we want.

01:02:39.780 So when we're saying certain things, understand where we're coming from.

01:02:42.660 We're not trying to have a go at you.

01:02:44.040 We're not trying to belittle you.

01:02:45.560 We're not trying to undermine you.

01:02:46.880 But if we're saying certain stuff, which are bitter truths, and let's be real here, yeah?

01:02:50.820 Take it and understand, maybe he's trying to help me better myself, like you said.

01:02:54.440 Now, going to Surah Talaq, I find this very interesting, because I don't think we've touched up on this, yeah?

01:02:57.960 I think we're going to, pretty much, yeah?

01:02:58.920 Yes, we're going to, inshallah, in about five minutes, we're going to finish, inshallah, yeah?

01:03:01.760 Yeah.

01:03:02.060 Okay, so in Surah Talaq, Allah SWT says,

01:03:05.100 So when they, the divorced women, have almost reached their term, then either retain with them with fairness, or part with them in fairness, 0.55

01:03:12.260 and make two just men among from you witness of either of the decision.

01:03:16.280 And O witnesses, keep your testimony upright for the sake of Allah.

01:03:20.720 That is what anyone who believes in Allah in the last day exhorted to do.

01:03:24.280 Now, here is very interesting, yeah?

01:03:25.920 Whoever feels Allah, he brings forth a way out for him, and provides for him from places he would never imagine, yeah?

01:03:32.220 Now, this is one thing I think that we're really, really missing, yeah?

01:03:35.440 And the Salaf would say this.

01:03:36.440 The Salaf would say, anytime we would commit a sin, we would see it in our riding beast.

01:03:41.240 We would see it in our wives.

01:03:42.720 When we would come home and be like, okay, the wife's barking out. 0.90

01:03:45.180 I didn't even do nothing.

01:03:46.580 They would connect it back to the sin they committed.

01:03:48.840 How many of us today go and say, hold on a second, bro.

01:03:52.020 I don't praise Allah.

01:03:52.740 Bro, I commit major sins.

01:03:54.520 I'm involved in riba.

01:03:55.960 Bro, how could you?

01:03:56.760 And you're telling me, and you're coming and telling me, oh man, I don't know why my marriage.

01:04:01.040 Bro, you know, and I'm not saying, look, there can be issues.

01:04:03.340 We've had prophets who married evil women. 0.98

01:04:05.320 No, alayhi wa sallam, yeah?

01:04:06.200 We knew righteous women who married evil people. 1.00

01:04:08.100 Like, Firaun. 0.73

01:04:10.120 The point is this.

01:04:11.520 How many of us, we talk about this culture, that culture, this, that, yeah, okay, all well and good.

01:04:14.980 Because Allah says in the Quran, if you don't know something, ask somebody that knows.

01:04:17.400 We understand.

01:04:17.800 But how many of us have ever self-reflected and said, you know what, hold on a second.

01:04:23.020 What is it that I'm doing?

01:04:24.320 Which one of my sins is it that I'm doing that is causing the destruction of my marriage right in front of my eyes?

01:04:29.440 How many of us do this and say, you know what, hold on a second, bro.

01:04:32.200 Or I'm a guy who goes and speaks to different girls, left, right, center, every day.

01:04:37.120 Yeah?

01:04:37.620 How come, what kind of barakah do you want in your marriage? 0.97

01:04:39.740 Or I'm a sister who goes and talks evil of my husband to everyone and anyone that no one has respect for him.

01:04:45.520 Arguments, yeah?

01:04:46.660 The point is this.

01:04:47.700 If we are indulging these sins, if we're doing these evil actions, how do you expect?

01:04:52.600 Like the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam said in the hadith, what he earns is haram.

01:04:56.660 What he wears is haram.

01:04:58.440 And it's something along those lines, the hijab, if you know.

01:05:00.620 How do you accept the du'a to be accepted? 0.98

01:05:03.660 How did you look, you're doing all of these things and then you're like, and this is the biggest problem.

01:05:08.400 You know what it is?

01:05:09.280 Taking the aql over the naql.

01:05:11.280 What is it?

01:05:12.240 Oh, I know, like you said sister, Aya, yeah?

01:05:15.000 We always go on Instagram.

01:05:16.140 We go on Instagram.

01:05:16.700 That's not a problem.

01:05:17.880 Psychologists, they can help me.

01:05:19.580 Taking the aql over the naql.

01:05:21.380 What Allah has prescribed is the best thing for us.

01:05:24.880 Of course, there are professionals in their fields that we can go to, understandable.

01:05:28.960 But the point is the following.

01:05:30.340 Self-reflect, my sins that I'm committing, understanding all of this.

01:05:33.980 I mean, all this in perspective.

01:05:34.840 Okay, you know what?

01:05:35.880 I abstain from sins.

01:05:36.820 I pray my salah, all my salah.

01:05:38.360 I do my adhkar.

01:05:39.380 I give my zakah.

01:05:40.340 I fast in Ramadan.

01:05:41.420 I do what's obligatory.

01:05:42.720 From there, things are not working.

01:05:43.960 Okay, let's go to a counselor. 0.99

01:05:45.880 But what do we do?

01:05:46.660 We're like, forget, well, how many people come down and say, nobody.

01:05:49.800 They're like, let's go to a counselor.

01:05:51.560 Sorry, I went on a bit of a round one.

01:05:52.660 It's just really, well, it hurts me to see believers divorcing.

01:05:56.740 Well, it's in a 50% rate.

01:05:57.840 One of the reasons I started to show, Wallahi, I don't want to see that. 1.00

01:06:01.800 I don't want to see that.

01:06:03.140 Because the first thing, Shaytan, when Sihir was sent down to Harut and Marut, did the Sihir, 0.98

01:06:08.480 did they say, use the Sihir to drink alcohol?

01:06:10.180 No.

01:06:10.340 To rob?

01:06:11.300 To murder?

01:06:11.900 For what?

01:06:12.580 To divide.

01:06:13.420 Divide.

01:06:14.380 Yeah.

01:06:15.300 Just, I guess we're about to stop, right?

01:06:18.240 Yeah.

01:06:18.520 Insha'Allah.

01:06:18.800 We're wrapping up today.

01:06:19.840 Insha'Allah.

01:06:20.180 For him.

01:06:21.160 I would extract two solutions from this discussion.

01:06:24.200 Number one would be that imams have to learn more pragmatic ways of dealing with issues. 1.00

01:06:30.840 And that if anyone goes into coaching, it needs to have an Islamic background. 0.98

01:06:36.380 Like they have to, you cannot separate the two, as you were saying, the separation, this

01:06:40.420 moral relativism, this division between what Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala has revealed and

01:06:44.640 what we think, as you said, the naql and the naql.

01:06:46.760 I would say that would be number one, that we need to fix the problem by actually targeting

01:06:52.560 the root cause of this.

01:06:54.260 And that is ignorance, lack of submission, as you said, lack of self-accountability.

01:07:00.760 We don't apply these.

01:07:02.640 Like hold yourself accountable first.

01:07:06.000 And this is the main issue, right?

01:07:09.400 That would be number one.

01:07:10.860 Number two, I would say that, you know, divorce is climbing. 1.00

01:07:18.760 We need to look at why are people divorcing?

01:07:21.660 Not just, okay, where do we go if they're about to divorce? 0.60

01:07:24.480 That's going to be our next topic, inshallah.

01:07:25.660 Why are people getting divorced?

01:07:26.900 February, you can come for that, yeah.

01:07:29.260 So let's try to tackle there.

01:07:31.960 That's my saying.

01:07:32.860 God bless you.

01:07:33.740 Hijab, any closer things?

01:07:35.300 Yeah, I'm just, another thing is that divorce is not as bad as many people think it is.

01:07:39.100 It's true, I mean, in the sense that I think we have this perception that, okay, well,

01:07:43.800 this is a very strange time in history.

01:07:46.480 I was looking at some particular, I think it was, I might be wrong, but it could be Yusuf

01:07:51.720 Rappaport, his name is, is a particular guy, medievalist and stuff like that.

01:07:56.740 And he came across a study in medieval Egypt in the 8th century or 9th century.

01:08:03.380 Actually, Dawood sent it to me.

01:08:04.520 Okay.

01:08:04.980 Very interesting.

01:08:05.460 And, and it was, it was, I think the biggest of his kind and on women actually, it was

01:08:11.220 on 400 women in villages in Egypt.

01:08:13.800 And basically one third of them were divorced.

01:08:17.120 Now, which is very interesting because this is 800 years ago.

01:08:20.900 This is 800 years ago.

01:08:22.820 So don't forget, like, you know, when you look at the companions, I mean, most, most of

01:08:26.800 them, I don't know if most of them were divorced and that's just difficult to say, but a lot

01:08:30.200 of them were divorced, a big chunk of them.

01:08:31.360 They were divorced or they divorced?

01:08:33.000 They got divorced.

01:08:33.480 They divorced? 0.60

01:08:34.280 That's the question.

01:08:35.080 Oh yeah.

01:08:35.360 Well, whether they stayed divorced.

01:08:36.720 There's a difference when they divorced and stayed divorced.

01:08:37.620 One divorce happened to them in their life.

01:08:39.240 There's a big difference.

01:08:39.940 Do you know what I mean?

01:08:40.260 Yeah, I get you.

01:08:40.780 I understand that.

01:08:41.420 This is a very good point.

01:08:42.300 Yeah.

01:08:42.400 But what I was going to say was that the point is, is because if we make it all doom and

01:08:46.740 gloom, it's kind of like, there's no bouncing back from it.

01:08:49.800 Of course.

01:08:50.180 It's not a strange time in history.

01:08:51.800 This is something which people have recovered from.

01:08:54.800 Yes.

01:08:54.920 People have been able to get over and do something afterwards.

01:08:57.520 Yes.

01:08:57.760 On the meta-vision of this?

01:08:59.080 Asma Abin Toomais.

01:09:00.260 A very interesting hadith.

01:09:01.400 I'm not sure if you guys have heard of it.

01:09:02.400 No.

01:09:02.720 Married to...

01:09:03.480 So, she was married to four of Sahara.

01:09:05.860 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:09:06.520 She was married to Ali ibn Abi Talib, Jafar ibn Abi Talib.

01:09:09.280 She was married to Abu Bakr Siddiq.

01:09:10.820 And I can't remember the fourth.

01:09:11.820 Do you know her?

01:09:13.380 I think.

01:09:14.220 Is it?

01:09:14.620 I think so.

01:09:15.200 I might agree.

01:09:15.900 I can't remember.

01:09:15.960 But I know Abu Bakr.

01:09:17.000 Ali and Jafar.

01:09:17.760 A very famous hadith where she was speaking and she was asked, who's your best husband

01:09:23.520 that you married?

01:09:24.880 And she goes, from among the shuyukh, like the elder generation, it was Abu Bakr Siddiq. 0.96

01:09:29.260 And from the young guys, it was Jafar.

01:09:32.040 And so Ali was joking.

01:09:33.480 Wasn't he?

01:09:34.220 Yeah, yes.

01:09:34.760 Yeah, so he wasn't a widow.

01:09:35.740 Yeah, he wasn't a widow.

01:09:36.900 But, so Ali was like, there's nothing left for me.

01:09:40.900 You know?

01:09:41.620 So in a sense, no, no.

01:09:42.620 But it shows you this idea.

01:09:44.260 Who asked this question, by the way?

01:09:45.600 Who?

01:09:45.800 I don't know who asked the question.

01:09:47.460 Ali said that.

01:09:48.840 Yeah, there's nothing left for me.

01:09:49.860 Well, like today men, they would do something else.

01:09:52.440 Can you imagine?

01:09:53.900 What I'm saying was that there was more of an issue.

01:09:56.740 It was more laissez-faire.

01:09:57.800 Yes, well, that's what I'm saying.

01:09:58.820 What I'm saying, it was more like, it's not a problem.

01:10:01.020 Like, okay, this is a woman that she's been married to this one.

01:10:03.340 And that was a big issue.

01:10:05.120 Exactly.

01:10:05.660 Who is the married divorced woman today? 1.00

01:10:07.800 That's a different topic.

01:10:09.900 The reason why I'm bringing that to the table is because I thought, like, it's important

01:10:12.920 to realize, okay, divorce can be the end, but it can also be the beginning.

01:10:16.100 Yeah, yeah.

01:10:16.700 And so we have to have, like, a different idea of that.

01:10:18.860 Okay, all right.

01:10:19.300 Let's just, because we need to play a market, inshallah.

01:10:20.660 Sister Fahima, and then.

01:10:21.880 I think a lot of us need to learn our deen more than anything, because as Sister Arifah

01:10:28.160 mentioned before, it's more about the culture that's being performed today.

01:10:31.680 And I think that's the main issue.

01:10:33.020 Luckily for me, I was married to Iraqi, so, and I come from Afghani, you know, heritage.

01:10:37.920 But when there's certain communities, unfortunately, as I see even as my clients, that regardless

01:10:43.220 of what, they live by the rule of their culture.

01:10:45.900 And I really think that that needs to be addressed.

01:10:48.840 And that's the real problem.

01:10:50.780 And then I'll bless you.

01:10:51.600 Staya. 0.52

01:10:52.640 So, Brava said that therapy tells you, does not tell you to actually stop complaining,

01:10:58.740 when in fact, it actually does.

01:11:00.440 In a way, it almost teaches you how to stop complaining by making you aware of your behaviors

01:11:06.400 and your moods, etc.

01:11:08.380 For someone who is divorced and who's had multiple therapy sessions with different therapists,

01:11:13.680 I can definitely say that I have become more aware of myself and my relationship with

01:11:18.420 Allah than I was prior to going to therapy.

01:11:22.780 And maybe, yes, Allah gave me that, Ruth, because that's how he wanted to guide me.

01:11:28.720 But we can't knock it down and say that they don't teach you to stop complaining, because

01:11:32.140 they really do.

01:11:32.960 I used to complain about everything, every single thing.

01:11:35.140 There's traffic, why is there traffic?

01:11:36.340 Little did I realize, I was actually the traffic.

01:11:38.820 But existential therapy and psychology is more popular than I'm talking about.

01:11:42.420 No, she makes a good point.

01:11:43.400 I think it's good to make that point.

01:11:46.780 Let me just clarify something, because it's important.

01:11:48.440 I think the point of stop complaining is important, because yes, it's true that psychologists

01:11:53.260 or counselors would say things like, you know, you have trait neuroticism or something like

01:11:57.480 this, how to reduce it or whatever it is, or they give you ways.

01:12:00.900 What I was going with was further than that, in the sense that the Islamic conception would

01:12:05.160 tell you you're wrong.

01:12:06.480 It's not just that stop complaining.

01:12:07.680 Like, for example, there's an ayah in the Quran that says that,

01:12:10.240 Whatever happens, whatever happens in your life, that it's your fault.

01:12:21.640 It's what your hands have.

01:12:22.280 Yeah, what your hands have put forward, and it pardons a lot of sins.

01:12:26.060 And it doesn't go, what we're saying is our model of therapy, our therapeutic method.

01:12:30.220 It's more brutal.

01:12:30.980 It's way more brutal.

01:12:32.640 Because it's saying that, in essence, everything goes back to your own behavior.

01:12:36.440 Everything is self-accountability.

01:12:37.540 And that level of self-accountability, I'm saying, yeah, you're right about the complaining,

01:12:41.340 but it's not afforded in modern housing at all.

01:12:43.520 Yeah, so basically, I understand, there is, but not to the level of...

01:12:46.840 Yeah, Islam... 1.00

01:12:47.540 But you said there's something interesting.

01:12:49.080 Islam tells... 0.81

01:12:50.280 About you, you said ayah was the...

01:12:51.980 Can you just...

01:12:52.700 Yeah, it's just a small little concept of, you know, when we're constant complaining,

01:12:57.120 we'll feed, it's like they say, if you've got two wolves, which one grows?

01:13:00.520 It's the one you feed.

01:13:02.360 So, going back to what you said, yeah, you're right.

01:13:05.700 Islam tells you how it is. 1.00

01:13:08.720 And we have become overly sensitive, unfortunately, today.

01:13:13.280 We can't take criticism, even over the smallest thing.

01:13:16.460 So, we do need to be told how it is.

01:13:18.660 But then we are not mentally or emotionally or psychologically, unfortunately, equipped

01:13:23.960 enough to understand it and actually process it, change it, and adapt it into our everyday life.

01:13:29.520 Therefore, that method, unfortunately, does not always work for all of us.

01:13:34.960 And sometimes things have to be sugar-coated.

01:13:38.040 As sad as it is, maybe that is the approach that this person understands.

01:13:43.440 And that is the approach most of us understand these days.

01:13:46.620 But it doesn't matter how anyone says anything to you.

01:13:50.100 If you want to gain something from it, you will, regardless of how it's said to you.

01:13:54.260 If you want to criticize it and reject it, it doesn't matter if your mom said it, your dad said it,

01:13:59.320 or, you know, the king said it, you will reject it.

01:14:02.020 So, it comes down to what you...

01:14:03.140 Why don't I come in one more time?

01:14:04.740 He didn't press the buzzer.

01:14:05.940 Only because...

01:14:06.380 No, yeah.

01:14:06.980 Yeah, it's just far away, isn't it?

01:14:08.680 Just one more thing, because you're making good points.

01:14:10.480 But I just...

01:14:11.400 Before I forget it, because sometimes I've got a train of thought and I forget it.

01:14:13.920 If I pray, I'm going to forget.

01:14:15.340 Which is that the idea of sugarcoating something, okay?

01:14:19.700 The Islamic creed cannot be sugarcoated in the sense that, like, for example, 0.83

01:14:24.160 we believe that, okay, there's such a thing as depression.

01:14:26.420 For the sake of all, it's a clinical disorder, for example, yeah?

01:14:29.220 And it's differentiated by what's referred to as transitory sadness.

01:14:32.720 And usually the diagnosis say, like, for example, transitory sadness is six months

01:14:35.720 and everything else for six months is depression, for example, right?

01:14:38.440 Now, there is a kind of depression which is haram, which is actually poor.

01:14:42.060 For example, you might be surprised to hear this, but

01:14:45.080 Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala says in the Qur'an

01:14:46.580 وَمَنْ يَيْأَسُوا مِنْ رَوحِ اللَّهِ إِلَّا الْقَوْمُ الْكَافِرُونَ

01:14:49.240 Whoever is hopeless from the mercy of God

01:14:51.840 is...

01:14:53.260 Who would do that except for a disbeliever? 1.00

01:14:55.240 So, the point is, on the spectrum of depression,

01:14:57.940 on the far left side, you have hopelessness.

01:15:00.200 In fact, if you're, for example, studying bipolar disorder,

01:15:03.480 hopelessness is in the depressive episode

01:15:05.400 would be the epitome of depressive mood swings, for example.

01:15:10.080 And what I'm saying is, for example, 0.88

01:15:12.060 there are some things which you cannot do as a Muslim

01:15:15.280 and that Islam has to set your criterion.

01:15:18.000 Now, you cannot sugarcoat those bits.

01:15:19.900 For example, the hopelessness,

01:15:22.420 despairing from the mercy of God.

01:15:24.700 Or, for instance, like in this case,

01:15:27.540 being told that everything essentially that you're doing that's wrong

01:15:30.700 is because of your own sins.

01:15:31.680 Now, that might be very hard for somebody who is a victim of X, Y, Z assault.

01:15:37.440 But actually, this is because of a sin that you've done.

01:15:39.560 Or it's because of a test that you'll be given.

01:15:42.140 It's a very difficult thing to hear.

01:15:43.900 But that spiritual dimension, once again,

01:15:46.020 is not something we just believe in,

01:15:48.180 but we must implement.

01:15:49.160 And there's no sugarcoat in that aspect of it.

01:15:51.160 True. Okay, guys, we need to pray.

01:15:52.940 Sister, last question.

01:15:54.360 I just, my personal advice would be that

01:15:57.120 if you and your husband are in constant arguments

01:15:59.280 to come up before the marriage,

01:16:01.080 you know, in your early days,

01:16:01.760 come up with a coping mechanism.

01:16:02.880 So what are we going to do when we both get heated?

01:16:05.600 So I know, I don't know if it's a hadith or not, 0.89

01:16:07.340 but obviously one becomes fire, one becomes water.

01:16:10.620 You know, try and implement that early in your marriage.

01:16:12.860 Try to implement coping mechanism.

01:16:14.500 For example, if you're both angry, sit down.

01:16:16.640 I was watching this one guy,

01:16:18.580 like, I don't know if it was a TED talk,

01:16:19.740 and he was saying that when he argues with his wife,

01:16:22.040 they both lay on the floor,

01:16:23.160 and then the argument becomes minor

01:16:24.500 because they start to laugh.

01:16:26.700 They literally sit on the floor together,

01:16:28.020 and they realise,

01:16:29.300 how can you be angry with someone

01:16:30.280 when you're in that position?

01:16:31.940 So you have, you and your husband are a team.

01:16:33.820 I don't think getting too many interventions involved,

01:16:37.380 I think that will separate you more.

01:16:39.380 And that will, I don't think that's healthy.

01:16:41.640 I think try to come up with methods yourself

01:16:43.560 in the early days and implement them

01:16:45.380 so they become a habit, you know, as you grow.

01:16:48.240 Yeah, that's true.

01:16:48.860 I think about when my wife is,

01:16:50.960 if I'm not mistaken, yeah.

01:16:52.780 And yeah, talking about the floors,

01:16:54.100 these days, things about solving,

01:16:56.420 but one ends up on the floor, which is...

01:16:58.200 Yeah, yeah, literally, yeah.

01:16:59.880 I want to recommend the book.

01:17:01.260 Please, yes.

01:17:01.980 I'm going to end on that, please.

01:17:02.940 Because we've talked a lot about

01:17:04.360 the different approaches in psychology.

01:17:06.860 Dr. Malik Padri has a book

01:17:08.600 called The Dilemma of the Muslim Psychologist,

01:17:10.860 where he addresses the Freudian Method

01:17:13.400 and how the Muslim psychologists

01:17:15.700 have built upon that premise

01:17:18.220 or upon that foundation

01:17:18.960 and what the problems are with that,

01:17:21.400 as you mentioned a lot about

01:17:22.340 foreign psychology.

01:17:23.700 And experimental psychology is,

01:17:26.160 I mean,

01:17:26.480 it's quite a lot right now,

01:17:28.220 as well as it's called

01:17:29.660 The Dilemma of the Muslim Psychologist. 0.53

01:17:31.960 Dr. Malik Padri,

01:17:32.760 Allah Arham,

01:17:33.180 I think he's a Sudani scholar,

01:17:35.160 who is a psychologist,

01:17:36.840 psychiatrist here in the UK,

01:17:38.000 MashaAllah.

01:17:39.100 Great book.

01:17:39.880 I would recommend it to you, MashaAllah.

01:17:41.100 May Allah bless you, InshAllah.

01:17:41.900 I think this is one of the most

01:17:42.960 productive episodes we had.

01:17:44.620 I'll be honest,

01:17:44.960 we've had a couple.

01:17:46.000 May Allah bless you guys.

01:17:47.000 Well,

01:17:47.080 I believe these discussions

01:17:48.780 are going to help people out there

01:17:49.940 who's on the verge of divorce,

01:17:51.340 in law problems,

01:17:52.320 and we hope,

01:17:52.980 InshAllah,

01:17:53.240 that this somehow gives you guys

01:17:54.800 some kind of a guidance,

01:17:56.140 whatever it may be,

01:17:56.720 a letter from the Quran,

01:17:57.500 the Sunnah,

01:17:58.060 and our few little opinions

01:17:59.360 here and there.

01:18:00.200 And may Allah bless

01:18:00.860 our honourable sisters

01:18:01.660 who have come here,

01:18:02.340 who have had their say as well,

01:18:03.440 InshAllah,

01:18:03.920 really means a lot,

01:18:04.680 InshAllah,

01:18:04.840 to hear our sister's side,

01:18:05.820 because we don't know

01:18:06.640 how you guys think.

01:18:07.540 So may Allah bless you guys,

01:18:08.560 InshAllah,

01:18:08.960 till next time from

01:18:09.500 The Bitter Truth Show.

01:18:10.560 As-salamu alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu.

01:18:12.040 If you want to be a part of the panel,

01:18:13.740 go to the email here

01:18:15.560 at the bottom,

01:18:16.160 InshAllah.

01:18:16.600 Or if you have a question,

01:18:17.640 you're going through something,

01:18:18.640 whatever it may be,

01:18:19.380 married to,

01:18:19.940 single,

01:18:20.180 whatever.

01:18:20.640 If it's something that we can answer,

01:18:22.140 we would.

01:18:22.800 Please email us,

01:18:23.540 InshAllah,

01:18:23.780 till next time from The Bitter Truth Show.

01:18:25.220 As-salamu alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu.

01:18:27.220 The Prophet sallallahu alaykum said,

01:18:31.420 whoever builds a masjid 0.85

01:18:32.620 for the sake of Allah sallallahu alaykum wa ta'ala,

01:18:34.380 Allah will build for him 1.00

01:18:35.940 a similar house in Jannah.

01:18:38.160 On that day,

01:18:38.880 where Allah sallallahu alaykum wa ta'ala tells us

01:18:40.520 that our books will be given,

01:18:42.080 and every little atom weight of good deed you've done

01:18:44.880 will be there.

01:18:45.960 And imagine you see a mountain,

01:18:48.220 and you're like,

01:18:48.640 what a lucky person.

01:18:49.900 Which righteous person?

01:18:51.960 Allah says,

01:18:52.540 this is for you.

01:18:53.560 For me?

01:18:54.260 Yes.

01:18:54.920 What did I do?

01:18:56.300 You allowed people to pray.

01:18:58.000 You built a masjid.

01:18:59.060 I never had the money to build a masjid, 0.71

01:19:00.280 oh Allah.

01:19:01.060 You helped.

01:19:02.120 You gave towards it,

01:19:03.160 and Allah gives you the reward

01:19:04.220 of as if you've built it.

01:19:06.100 Donate now, guys,

01:19:06.960 and do not delay.

01:19:08.000 And share the video for extra rewards.

Ali Dawah - January 29, 2023

SHOULD IN-LAWS GET INVOLVED？ EP 3 ｜｜ BITTER TRUTH SHOW

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