America First - Nicholas J. Fuentes - How to Retake the GOP feat. Alex | America First Ep. 156

00:00:02.000 Good evening, everybody.

00:00:03.000 You are watching America First.

00:00:05.000 My name is Nicholas J. Fuentes, and we have a great show for you tonight.

00:00:10.000 We are very excited to bring on my friend who's been working in the underbelly of Conservative Inc. for a long time.

00:00:17.000 Not anymore, but he had been for a long time.

00:00:21.000 An old friend of mine that I knew from the Leadership Institute.

00:00:25.000 He actually took me under his wing when I was trying to get a job there, when I was working my way up the greasy, Corporate ladder, and he'll be joining us tonight.

00:00:35.000 His name is Alex Wytoslawski, and he'll be here to talk about a Polish person, which is all right.

00:00:40.000 Which is all right, all right?

00:00:42.000 It's a tolerance show.

00:00:43.000 We're going to be progressive, and I'm going to have him on the show.

00:00:46.000 And I don't want anybody to say anything about it, all right? 1.00

00:00:48.000 He's Polish. 1.00

00:00:49.000 It's fine. 1.00

00:00:51.000 Just kidding, of course. 0.91

00:00:51.000 We'll be having him on the show to talk about activism and to talk about foreign affairs, the black pill versus the white pill, and it should be a good time. 0.91

00:01:00.000 So I'll bring him in here on the Google Hangouts. 0.77

00:01:03.000 I'll be bringing him on.

00:01:05.000 I was just on a stream with Richard Spencer, actually, a moment ago, shortly before this.

00:01:13.000 I was on the JF Gripe show called The Public Space, which to me, I think it should be stylized as the public space because that's how he says it all the time.

00:01:24.000 You know, they call it the public space, but that's not how it's said.

00:01:27.000 So just had a very good discussion with Mr. Richard Spencer, which we've had our differences in the past, but he seemed to be very congenial tonight and pretty much on point.

00:01:39.000 In terms of everything we talked about.

00:01:41.000 So it was a great time.

00:01:43.000 And let's see if we have Alex on the line.

00:01:46.000 I sent him the link, so he should be coming in in a moment.

00:01:50.000 But even on the religion question with Spencer, he seemed much more.

00:01:56.000 I don't know, maybe I just didn't understand his position or maybe he didn't articulate it as well because I think there was a lot of confusion about it.

00:02:02.000 But tonight he seemed much more congenial towards religious people, particularly Catholics and Christians.

00:02:09.000 And so he sounded reasonable enough to me.

00:02:12.000 Which I know many people are going to get all upset and say, oh, Nick was on with Richard Spencer, the bad guy, the evil guy.

00:02:19.000 You know, I don't agree with everything he has to say, but to me, it seemed like just about everything we covered was okay, sounded okay to me.

00:02:28.000 As we're waiting on Mr. Witteslawski, we'll see.

00:02:31.000 He told me he was ready, told me he was ready to go, but we'll be waiting.

00:02:35.000 It's been a pretty busy day for news.

00:02:38.000 I was almost a little bit disappointed, I guess.

00:02:41.000 We had planned out Alex coming on the show for a while, for a couple of weeks.

00:02:46.000 And yesterday would have been a perfect day to do it because not so much news, but today there are things going on.

00:02:52.000 But it looks like we've got him on the air now.

00:02:54.000 Hello, Alex.

00:02:55.000 Can you hear me?

00:03:00.000 Just a moment.

00:03:02.000 Can you give me a test, real quick?

00:03:04.000 Testing.

00:03:05.000 One, two, three.

00:03:06.000 Can you hear me?

00:03:07.000 Perfect.

00:03:07.000 Yes.

00:03:08.000 You're perfect.

00:03:09.000 Let me just get you up on the screen, and we should be good to go.

00:03:13.000 So let me pull up the browser capture, and I'll get you right up.

00:03:20.000 Whoops, what is going on here?

00:03:23.000 Oh, wait, hang on.

00:03:24.000 I plugged in the wrong thing.

00:03:26.000 Whoops, I put in the browser.

00:03:28.000 Sorry about that.

00:03:28.000 I put in the browser.

00:03:29.000 I meant to do the display capture.

00:03:31.000 There we go.

00:03:32.000 All right.

00:03:33.000 Now we're cooking.

00:03:34.000 Okay, so let me just put this right up over here.

00:03:37.000 Bing, bing, bong.

00:03:38.000 I'm good at technology, so I can do this on the fly.

00:03:42.000 All right, and so I'll pull you up.

00:03:43.000 There you are.

00:03:44.000 All right.

00:03:45.000 So it's great to have you on the show, Mr. Wytoslawski.

00:03:48.000 And why don't you just give us a quick introduction for those that don't know you?

00:03:52.000 I introduced you a little bit.

00:03:53.000 I said I worked with you at Leadership.

00:03:54.000 Institute.

00:03:55.000 So tell us about your background.

00:03:57.000 Yeah.

00:03:58.000 Yeah, so basically, my background is well, like many people on the dissident right, I started off as a Ron Paul guy back in like 07 and 08.

00:04:08.000 And I did some activism with, you know, like the Ron Paul folks and Campaign for Liberty.

00:04:16.000 That was all volunteer work.

00:04:17.000 But starting in 2012, I started doing some things a little more professionally, right?

00:04:25.000 Started working for a state rep campaign and doing that type of thing.

00:04:30.000 And eventually, yeah, I mean, honestly, like, not much to say besides political operative.

00:04:36.000 I've worked on campaigns, worked for nonprofits, helped pass laws and defeat bad bills in state legislatures before, also have helped people get elected.

00:04:49.000 And, you know, when I was with the Leadership Institute, I did tackle speech codes on several campuses, so, and defeated those or helped student activists who were working towards defeating those.

00:05:02.000 I'd say I have a pretty well rounded activism experience in terms of, you know, doing everything from defeating speech codes on college campuses to, you know, getting people elected and grassroots lobbying.

00:05:17.000 So, yeah.

00:05:20.000 Well, yeah, perfect.

00:05:21.000 And I think you're a perfect person to bring on this kind of a show because we talk about activism on this show and we talk about pragmatic activism, right?

00:05:30.000 We talk about putting people in college campus organizations.

00:05:34.000 Putting people on campaigns, putting people in the party apparatus so that they can be effective, so they can actually make change instead of just talking about it.

00:05:43.000 So I think you're the perfect person to bring on.

00:05:45.000 And, you know, we talked about the Leadership Institute, which I think is, and tell me if you agree with this, the Leadership Institute, which I went to for a weekend training and then for what was supposed to be a job training. 0.99

00:05:57.000 You know, I didn't get the job because of a woman. 1.00

00:06:01.000 It's always the women. 0.99

00:06:03.000 But I went there and I thought that regardless of the Content, which was very conservative, very libertarian kind of stuff, regardless of the content, I thought it was very good training. 0.92

00:06:13.000 I thought even if you sent nationalist people into those organizations to learn the ropes and to learn how to do it, I think it's still a great asset.

00:06:22.000 Would you agree with that?

00:06:23.000 Oh, yeah, no, absolutely.

00:06:26.000 My former boss, if she sees this, she's not going to be happy.

00:06:29.000 But everyone watching this show should go to Leadership Institute trainings.

00:06:36.000 Now, I'll say this as well if you are more of the dissident right wing variety, A nationalist, et cetera, then don't out yourself.

00:06:45.000 Right.

00:06:46.000 And so I kind of had this issue myself because, like, I would recruit people to go to trainings.

00:06:51.000 And then near the end of 2016, and certainly in 2017, you know, everyone kind of on the right was getting radicalized, at least in the distant right, you know, the circles I run in.

00:07:03.000 And then I'd have some of these student activists come into trainings, and then they start spouting off all types of like really radical rhetoric.

00:07:11.000 And that kind of inadvertently outed me.

00:07:13.000 So, but when you do that, you're not helping yourself either, right?

00:07:17.000 Like when you go to these trainings via LI or another one that I recommend is the one day school by the Foundation for Applied Conservative Leadership.

00:07:28.000 If you go to those, act like a normal conservative, right?

00:07:33.000 Network with people there and see if you can kind of get your foot in the door and get trained up to be a more effective activist.

00:07:39.000 So, and don't out yourself immediately because then they're just.

00:07:43.000 You know, they're not going to pick you for anything cool, right?

00:07:48.000 Yeah, if you want a job, like you're not going to get a job if you're out yourself.

00:07:51.000 If you want some more activism experience or something, like they're not going to give you a call, right?

00:07:57.000 If you come across sounding too radical.

00:07:59.000 So that's kind of what I suggest everyone do there.

00:08:04.000 And I mean, it was Saul Alinsky who said true radicals, they put on a suit, a tie, and they try to infiltrate the system from within.

00:08:12.000 So that's kind of my general.

00:08:15.000 I think we need people on both sides, so to speak, right?

00:08:19.000 But we definitely need more people now who are going to try to infiltrate the Republican Party.

00:08:25.000 We're going to try to infiltrate Conservatism Inc.

00:08:28.000 And so on and so forth.

00:08:29.000 So, yeah, no, I definitely agree with that.

00:08:32.000 And of course, I had that firsthand unfortunate experience of outing myself.

00:08:38.000 You know, as I went to that youth leadership school, and you were obviously very much involved in that.

00:08:43.000 And for people watching this right out of the gate, I showed up there with my power level on full display. 0.66

00:08:50.000 I think it was, what did it take 24 hours for me to start talking about race mixing and the Holocaust?

00:08:58.000 Those were pretty bad topics to bring up. 1.00

00:09:00.000 But yeah, that was pretty funny.

00:09:02.000 I couldn't help myself. 0.98

00:09:03.000 I couldn't help myself because, you know, it was all, you know, these basic bitch George Bush and Ronald Reagan acolytes. 0.99

00:09:11.000 I just couldn't help myself. 0.94

00:09:13.000 But I definitely do recommend it.

00:09:14.000 And, Alex, you agree.

00:09:16.000 The Youth Leadership School by the Leadership Institute.

00:09:19.000 If you're a high schooler, or I don't know, maybe if you're a college kid, if you're a young guy, and I get that question so much on this show how can I help?

00:09:27.000 How can I help the movement?

00:09:29.000 What can I do?

00:09:30.000 That's the place to start.

00:09:31.000 The Youth Leadership School by Leadership Institute.

00:09:34.000 And what's the other one you referenced, the One Day Conference?

00:09:37.000 So, there's another nonprofit called Foundation for Applied Conservative Leadership, FACL, and you can just Google them and find them.

00:09:46.000 I think it's faculty.org.

00:09:48.000 I'm not 100% sure about their website, but they have a really good training for specifically for like grassroots lobbying, right?

00:09:56.000 So, if you're trying to change laws on a local level or on a state level and build up a grassroots organization, that's a really good training to go to.

00:10:06.000 Whereas Leadership Institute training is kind of more like tactical.

00:10:10.000 And they teach more strategy, right?

00:10:13.000 So, like, the tactics are like, you know, how do you recruit people?

00:10:18.000 How do you design a flyer?

00:10:20.000 You know, whatever.

00:10:21.000 And they teach more of like a strategy.

00:10:23.000 And I think that's something that going forward, people on the distant right wing need a lot of.

00:10:29.000 And they need to think that over more, right?

00:10:32.000 It's like, how are we going to build organizations and grow them and pick fights and change laws, even if it's something small starting up, right?

00:10:43.000 Or even if you lose, like sometimes you lose a legislative fight, but your organization grows, your group grows, your movement grows, and that's all a good thing.

00:10:52.000 So, yeah, it's definitely, but sorry, FACL, FACL, Foundation for Applied Conservative Leadership, they have a one day school.

00:11:01.000 I believe you have to go onto their website and input your info, and they'll reach out to you when they have a training.

00:11:09.000 They're a little more, I'd say, secretive.

00:11:12.000 The Leadership Institute is.

00:11:14.000 So, yeah, no, but absolutely.

00:11:16.000 Those are two great places where we can infiltrate.

00:11:20.000 And it's very easy because it's almost like they're giving it away.

00:11:24.000 You'd almost be stupid not to take advantage of it because when I was there, I mean, they pour tons of money from major donors into investigating, into putting together these, whatever you call it, these training exercises and these training regimens.

00:11:40.000 And they do it so that you're effective, so that you're in the field. 0.95

00:11:43.000 And logistical things.

00:11:44.000 You know, that's one of the things I was blown away by the Leadership Institute.

00:11:48.000 It wasn't like this circle jerk of, you know, low taxes and this and that.

00:11:52.000 It was almost surprisingly devoid of content.

00:11:55.000 What they taught you was how do you, if you're working on a campaign, how do you set up an office?

00:12:00.000 How do you get a desk?

00:12:02.000 How do you get a filing cabinet?

00:12:04.000 And what does an office look like?

00:12:05.000 How do you bring people on?

00:12:06.000 And that's the kind of expertise, that's the kind of logistical and pragmatic information that I think is really lacking.

00:12:14.000 And so you'd be almost foolish not to take advantage of it.

00:12:17.000 So, very good stuff.

00:12:19.000 And what can you tell us about your, because I want to talk about activism a little bit, because that's, of course, your expertise.

00:12:25.000 And it's really, I think, a great topic.

00:12:27.000 Before we get into the foreign policy stuff.

00:12:30.000 So, with all your experience, I know you've worked for a number of campus organizations and national organizations.

00:12:36.000 You look at the organization, or rather the activism, of the dissident right for the past year Charlottesville, the rallies, the college tours.

00:12:46.000 As somebody who's seen successful and unsuccessful activism, somebody who's gotten paid for this kind of stuff, what is your takeaway from the past year?

00:12:55.000 What can be changed?

00:12:56.000 What can be done better?

00:12:57.000 What's done right?

00:12:58.000 Tell us your insights.

00:13:01.000 Yeah, I think a lot has gone wrong, but I think the silver lining here is that people have realized that, right?

00:13:12.000 So, I mean, Charlottesville was a disaster on multiple fronts.

00:13:17.000 There's no doubt about that.

00:13:19.000 A lot of people talk about optics, right?

00:13:23.000 And the thing is, it's not about optics, though optics is a part of it, it's about messaging, right?

00:13:31.000 And what are you putting out there about yourself, right?

00:13:35.000 And optics is a part of your message, right?

00:13:37.000 Because, like, the first thing that people do when they see you is they judge you based on how you look, right?

00:13:42.000 So, if you're out there with some guy that's, you know, marching around with the swastika flag, like, they see you and you're marching side by side with this guy, they think you're a Nazi, right?

00:13:54.000 And that's just not going to fly in modern America.

00:13:59.000 And we see other things as well, right?

00:14:01.000 Different organizations.

00:14:04.000 They will purposefully kind of like ghettoize themselves, right?

00:14:09.000 With over the top rhetoric.

00:14:12.000 You know, we saw like TWP would show up at events and they'd be sanctioned by some movement leaders, which I thought was ridiculous.

00:14:21.000 And they would be throwing up Roman salutes and stuff.

00:14:24.000 It's like, come on, guys, what are you doing, right?

00:14:26.000 And the rhetoric in general was just bad.

00:14:29.000 So I'd say, honestly, a lot of the stuff leading up to it was.

00:14:35.000 A lot of the things that the alt right and the dissident right have been involved in in recent history have been pretty bad.

00:14:42.000 Now, the good things that I saw, and this actually kind of ties into what I wanted to discuss with you here, was like, for example, after the first serious strikes, right, we saw the alt right going out there, marching in Washington, D.C. 0.60

00:14:58.000 That went relatively well, and denouncing the serious strikes, right, and going in front of the White House and telling President Trump, We're against more Zionist wars.

00:15:11.000 And I think that kind of issue based activism is something that's valuable because you're picking a fight, you're staking out your side, and you're standing for whatever it is you believe in. 0.64

00:15:27.000 And then people who agree with you, maybe they don't agree with you on everything, but that kind of gives you a way to start talking with those people and start messaging to them.

00:15:38.000 So, for example, with the whole foreign policy thing, I mean, for a lot of like Ron Paul guys, like myself, this was kind of like where we got woke on certain issues, right?

00:15:49.000 Like, you look at all of the Coens and stuff that are neocons, right? 0.53

00:15:53.000 The Paul Wolfowitzes of the world.

00:15:54.000 You look at the different lobby groups that are pushing us to war, right?

00:16:00.000 The different people in the media who are pushing us into war.

00:16:03.000 And you start realizing something, right?

00:16:05.000 They're not here representing the interests of America.

00:16:08.000 And so I think it's this type of issue based activism where people go out on the streets.

00:16:15.000 Obviously, good rhetoric, good messaging, good optics, like all of that is important.

00:16:21.000 But where we go hit the streets on a particular issue, It can be foreign policy.

00:16:26.000 It can be immigration, you know, stop the caravan, whatever, and start getting our message out there into the public around issues that we care about and around issues that we don't necessarily have to win every fight we take on, but we have to get stronger with every fight we take on, right? 0.79

00:16:46.000 So, like, maybe we can't stop the next Zionist war, right?

00:16:50.000 Or maybe we can't stop the caravan. 0.77

00:16:52.000 I'm not 100% sure what's happening with that right now because I've heard conflicting stories, but just by taking on the fight, We're exercising.

00:17:00.000 We're getting stronger.

00:17:01.000 We're getting our message out there.

00:17:02.000 People are saying, hey, these guys are the real deal.

00:17:06.000 They're standing for something.

00:17:07.000 They're standing for issues we care about.

00:17:09.000 We should join up with them.

00:17:11.000 So that's essentially what I would say the dissident right, the nationalist right, needs to do more of in terms of activism.

00:17:20.000 Yeah, no, I agree with you on the issue based activism.

00:17:24.000 I think that's something that's very powerful.

00:17:26.000 I think it's something that's very concise and clear.

00:17:29.000 I think.

00:17:30.000 Your diagnosis about Charlottesville is basically correct in terms of messaging, where it wasn't so much, of course, optics is a part of messaging, but I think one of the bigger flaws was the idea that what really was this march about?

00:17:45.000 The big reason, I think, why the media was able to steal the narrative on that and say this was the Nazi march or the white supremacist march or the KKK march is because there was not really a clear vision for what this was supposed to be.

00:17:59.000 Was it about uniting the right wing?

00:18:02.000 Was it about the Lee Monument or Lee Park?

00:18:05.000 Was it about you will not replace us?

00:18:07.000 I mean, which element was it?

00:18:10.000 And so that's, I think, where we fell apart was the messaging, like you said.

00:18:14.000 But with the Syria strike or with the caravan or with a number of these other issues, it's very clear no war in Syria.

00:18:21.000 We're against war.

00:18:23.000 Stop the caravan.

00:18:24.000 There's people coming across the border.

00:18:26.000 Just stop them.

00:18:28.000 Even, I remember, what was the organization called?

00:18:31.000 Spencer's new organization was called the.

00:18:34.000 Operation Homeowners.

00:18:36.000 That's right.

00:18:37.000 They did some kind of a march after Kate Steinleigh's killer got off or whatever on whatever charges they were bringing against him.

00:18:45.000 They did a rally the next day and it was very quick.

00:18:48.000 IE has been doing some good things.

00:18:50.000 And so I think you're right.

00:18:51.000 That is the future.

00:18:52.000 Now, in terms of the long term, so that's how we could do it in the short term.

00:18:57.000 And I think that's very good stuff.

00:19:00.000 In the long term, how do you advise people to get involved in their political parties, for example?

00:19:06.000 If people want to take over and they want to.

00:19:09.000 Maybe they want to work in their local GOP.

00:19:09.000 I don't know.

00:19:12.000 Maybe they want to work on a campaign.

00:19:14.000 How would be the best way for people to go about that?

00:19:18.000 I mean, go to every single meeting you can find, essentially.

00:19:23.000 So, you know, go to your local Republican Party meeting.

00:19:28.000 It usually is divided up by county or by district.

00:19:31.000 So, for example, I live in the 11th congressional district in Michigan, right?

00:19:35.000 So I can go to my committee meeting, right?

00:19:41.000 Show up one day.

00:19:42.000 Find out when the next convention is, find out how I become a precinct delegate, and sign up to be a precinct delegate.

00:19:49.000 And when I do that, get myself elected, it's really easy to become one.

00:19:55.000 The rules vary by state, so I'm not going to tell you exactly how to become one, but it's usually pretty easy to become one.

00:20:02.000 And then once you're in, you can vote on who's going to be in the committee, et cetera.

00:20:07.000 You can vote on who's going to go to state convention and vote.

00:20:10.000 And if you go to your state convention, you can vote who's going to run the state level Republican Party, right?

00:20:17.000 And so the Republican Party operates, it's kind of like a federal system, right?

00:20:23.000 There's a national, a state, and a local level.

00:20:26.000 And I think that's one good area where people could start infiltrating.

00:20:30.000 And if you have buddies, right, from a different organization, let's say, or if you and just some of your buddies hang out, like I do that here in Michigan, you could always sign up all of your buddies to go and you could take over a local Republican Party if you have enough people.

00:20:48.000 Or you could be a strong enough faction.

00:20:51.000 And why does that matter?

00:20:53.000 Because then.

00:20:54.000 You have a say in how the local party spends its money, right?

00:20:59.000 And they donate money to candidates.

00:21:01.000 They spend money on producing literature and sending out direct mail.

00:21:06.000 And you can start moving the needle ever so slightly to the right and start helping candidates who are more, let's say, like Ann Coulter, right?

00:21:16.000 On topics like immigration, right?

00:21:18.000 Or foreign policy.

00:21:20.000 So that's one thing you can do.

00:21:21.000 But in addition to that, go to every meeting you can find if it's like a more libertarian leaning organization.

00:21:28.000 Or if it's like a Tea Party organization.

00:21:32.000 But the other thing, as well, is, you know, of course, we're talking to a younger crowd here.

00:21:36.000 Get involved in your, you know, college Republicans or in Young Americans for Liberty or Turning Point USA, but especially college Republicans, because you can take that over and start from there, right?

00:21:51.000 And that's where you're going to find people who are like minded.

00:21:54.000 You can start bringing them more over to your side, but you can also, you know, take over these organizations and use them for whatever you want to do, like.

00:22:03.000 Wouldn't it be cool if you could get a speaker that shares more of our ideas to show up at your campus?

00:22:10.000 Right?

00:22:12.000 I think that'd be pretty cool.

00:22:13.000 And if I were in college, that's what I'd be trying to do right now.

00:22:16.000 Right?

00:22:16.000 So there's ways to go about doing that, but that starts with either starting your own campus group or being part of an existing campus organization like College Republicans or like Turning Point USA and going from there.

00:22:31.000 I think that's a great answer.

00:22:33.000 And that's very helpful because so often, you know, you see.

00:22:38.000 Where we are in the nationalist right, and we have a lot of people across the country who have our views, and we're very angry about them, we're very passionate about them, but there's not much we can do about them, right?

00:22:49.000 I mean, I think we all have felt that helplessness, that powerlessness when we see that major organizations, major money, political whether it's political or it's private sector, where they can move money, they can move people, and we think, what's going on?

00:23:05.000 It seems like all the excitement is on our side, it seems like a lot of people are coming our way.

00:23:11.000 But these old Bush style candidates, these old Ronald Reagan type people, they're getting all the play in these major institutions.

00:23:18.000 And I think that's a great way for people like us to really change the, like you said, move the needle in a real way.

00:23:26.000 We talk about, you know, raising consciousness, moving the Overton window.

00:23:31.000 And as a pragmatic person, I think, okay, but this is very ethereal.

00:23:31.000 I hear that.

00:23:35.000 This is very abstract.

00:23:37.000 I want to think in terms of hard numbers.

00:23:39.000 How many GOP people do we have?

00:23:41.000 How many parties do we have?

00:23:42.000 Parties do we control?

00:23:43.000 How many meetings can we dominate or funds or whatever?

00:23:46.000 And that's, I think, the way forward, correct?

00:23:48.000 Would it be, and I guess this is the bigger question that I'll ask you now.

00:23:52.000 We get a lot of people on this show, people who watch this show, or people who send in super chats who say, you know, Nick, electoral politics, it's just a waste of time.

00:24:02.000 It's too far gone.

00:24:03.000 And this is something we see.

00:24:04.000 I think this is the core of the white pill, black pill debate where do we find this line of people who are mobilizing with angst about the president by saying, we're going to pressure him, and people who are saying, tune out, go away from politics.

00:24:18.000 It doesn't matter who wins elections.

00:24:20.000 What do you have to say about that?

00:24:22.000 That balance.

00:24:23.000 Do you think electoral politics has a future?

00:24:25.000 Is it a waste of time?

00:24:27.000 Is there something viable for the country in participating in the process?

00:24:33.000 Yeah, absolutely.

00:24:34.000 Electoral politics is important, and that's how we can get things done.

00:24:40.000 And what I think people don't understand is that people think that you have to be a majority, right, in order to actually change anything.

00:24:49.000 And you don't.

00:24:52.000 You have to be like, I forget which founding father said this something about a tireless, irate minority, right? 0.98

00:24:58.000 That works, actually. 0.97

00:25:00.000 Like, if you look at a lot of the special interest legislation that gets passed through Congress, through your state legislature, through your city council, or your county council, or whatever they call it in your state, right?

00:25:14.000 It's not like a majority of people want some weird bill on the prevailing wage to get passed.

00:25:22.000 No, those politicians vote a certain way on those bills because special interest groups that make up a tiny minority of the population.

00:25:31.000 Put pressure on those politicians and say, hey, if you don't vote this way, if you don't vote the right way on this bill, we're going to send a check to your opponent next election cycle, right?

00:25:43.000 Or we're going to turn out all of our union members and get them to knock on doors in your district, right?

00:25:50.000 So either for you or against you, right?

00:25:53.000 Based on how you vote on this. 0.64

00:25:55.000 And so it's not, you know, people think that like these black pillars, right?

00:26:02.000 I think, first of all, a lot of them think, well, we need to have 50% plus one of the public.

00:26:08.000 We can't accomplish that.

00:26:10.000 Therefore, you know, it's over.

00:26:12.000 And I say no.

00:26:14.000 And the other thing as well is people want to achieve everything right now.

00:26:20.000 Don't be so high time preference, right?

00:26:24.000 You won't be able to achieve everything right now.

00:26:26.000 I mean, I've been doing activism for like eight years at this point.

00:26:32.000 And it's just, you know, I think it's funny people get this kind of what I'd call shiny object activism, right?

00:26:39.000 Like they have ADHD, like, ooh, another shiny object, and I'm going to try this out, right?

00:26:44.000 I'm going to try that out.

00:26:45.000 Like, I'm going to try holding rallies, right?

00:26:47.000 Or whatever.

00:26:49.000 And they kind of forget, like, there's a bigger picture and there's just a lot of work that goes on in the background.

00:26:56.000 And we need people to start focusing on those things, right?

00:26:59.000 Start focusing on infiltrating your local Republican Party or getting.

00:27:05.000 People in your local area together networked so you all know each other, you're buddies, right?

00:27:10.000 And then you can do things together.

00:27:11.000 You can do different types of activism together.

00:27:14.000 It's not just going to a rally in a different state and showing up and hoping for the best, right?

00:27:21.000 So the whole point of activism is to influence the legislature, to influence things electorally, right?

00:27:32.000 And the only way you can do that is by getting out there, but you're not going to win immediately, right?

00:27:37.000 Right.

00:27:38.000 And that's kind of, you know, when I'm talking about the issue based activism, that's kind of why I talk about that because if you start tackling, say, building the wall or stopping the caravan or whatever, you're going to strengthen yourself, right?

00:27:52.000 Because you're going to attract new people.

00:27:54.000 And what you have to do is figure out how to get those people into your network, sign them up on a sign up sheet or a petition or whatever, or just talk to them, get them to show up to your local meeting, right?

00:28:05.000 But all of this is kind of for nothing if we don't have local groups meeting.

00:28:12.000 Or if we don't have local activists trying to infiltrate the Republican Party. 0.99

00:28:16.000 So all of these things have to happen, but it starts off with you there at home actually doing it and not sitting on your ass all day complaining and getting black pilled or too white pilled. 0.98

00:28:31.000 It's not enough for you just to vote. 0.98

00:28:36.000 You've got to figure out something else to do.

00:28:38.000 Donate money to candidates, whatever, or to organizations, or if you don't have money, Go do activism, right?

00:28:45.000 Because that means you've got time.

00:28:47.000 So you've got to do one or the other.

00:28:49.000 And that's essentially my message, I guess, for people on the distant right, on the nationalist right wing.

00:28:54.000 You've got to start getting involved if you want to change things.

00:28:59.000 Pardon this language.

00:29:00.000 I know you're like a strict Catholic, but if you're bitching on Twitter, right?

00:29:04.000 Like you're not doing enough.

00:29:06.000 Like there has to be more that's going on there, right?

00:29:09.000 Right.

00:29:09.000 No, I love that message.

00:29:11.000 And it's so true.

00:29:12.000 It's funny because this movement is maybe the most uniquely aware.

00:29:17.000 Of a certain situation where a very tiny percentage of the population may exert a disproportionate amount of influence, right?

00:29:25.000 I mean, we all are aware that there's, I don't know, maybe two, between two and three percent of the population calls the shots on a lot of things.

00:29:34.000 And they think that if we're less than 50 percent, you know, all hope is lost, forget about it, throw in the towel, it's over.

00:29:41.000 And it just speaks to the fact that if this group of people can demographically transform the country, I'm sure if we had 20 times that number, we could just as easily go in the other direction.

00:29:53.000 And I think it just comes down to a matter of what are you willing to do?

00:29:57.000 Is there a willpower to get this done? 0.95

00:30:00.000 And, like you say, if people can get off their ass, you know, sometimes I go against the language code as well, so it's all right. 0.98

00:30:07.000 It's all right. 0.99

00:30:08.000 If people get off their ass and stop complaining and wondering, is it possible? 0.99

00:30:14.000 Is it not possible? 1.00

00:30:15.000 Should we even try?

00:30:16.000 Just go out, go to a meeting, you know, go to one meeting.

00:30:20.000 And then, if you like it, go to the next one.

00:30:22.000 Even if you don't like it, go to the next one.

00:30:24.000 Bring some friends.

00:30:25.000 That's how you snowball into a big movement.

00:30:28.000 That's how you build a network.

00:30:30.000 And I think that's the kind of, like you said, the shiny object or the high time preference.

00:30:35.000 That's the kind of short sightedness that's been hindering us.

00:30:38.000 People have to look at the long game.

00:30:40.000 If we're willing to build this structure, build this infrastructure, essentially, of a new movement, whether that's a party, whether that's some kind of socio political apparatus, I don't know what it would look like.

00:30:53.000 But if we're willing to be those building blocks and to put together these nodes in a vast network, really, we're going to be a lot better off, whether we're 50% or less than that or more than that.

00:31:03.000 Who knows?

00:31:04.000 In 25 years, we'll be better off for having that. 0.96

00:31:07.000 So, all very great points and very good about the white pillar and about politics. 0.83

00:31:12.000 And so that's activism. 0.83

00:31:13.000 Do you have any closing thoughts on that before we enter into the foreign affairs, which is a little bit more divisive?

00:31:20.000 Well, no, I don't think so.

00:31:23.000 I think I'm going to tie in some of the activism stuff with the foreign affairs.

00:31:28.000 But why don't you take the lead on that and we'll just go from there?

00:31:32.000 Yeah, sure.

00:31:33.000 Yeah, I think you said it all right there with the activism.

00:31:37.000 But on foreign affairs, I want to clear something up because we got in kind of a debate.

00:31:42.000 And what I like about you, Alex, and I'm not just blowing smoke, we can say, we can dance each other, and it could get a little edgy, but you're not like a baby about it.

00:31:54.000 I don't get like a phone call.

00:31:55.000 I don't get it like, why did you say this to me?

00:31:58.000 So I do appreciate that.

00:32:00.000 But we did get into disagreement about the calling the White House thing.

00:32:05.000 Yeah.

00:32:06.000 That between the chemical attack, which was on a Saturday, and the strike, which is on a Friday, people were saying, call the White House, jam up the phone lines, all the rest.

00:32:06.000 Right?

00:32:15.000 And I will say, I'm not opposed to calling the White House.

00:32:19.000 Never happened.

00:32:20.000 And I just want to clarify before we jump in, because I know that'll be a contention.

00:32:24.000 The only reason was that in that window, Trump was looking at acting on something very specific, which was, how do we respond to a chemical attack?

00:32:34.000 And my thought was, He's in reaction mode.

00:32:37.000 Something's going to have to happen, or else he loses face, or it appears that he loses face, whatever.

00:32:43.000 And so, in that short timeframe between the attack and how they responded, I didn't think phone calls would change very much.

00:32:51.000 After the strike, I think it would be prudent to call because now I think it's a little bit more up in the air.

00:32:56.000 But I will say that.

00:32:57.000 So, where we disagreed, of course, was on the activism, but also on what was the purpose of the serious strike.

00:33:04.000 Was it the prelude to war?

00:33:06.000 Is it neocons?

00:33:07.000 Even if it isn't, is it still beyond the pale?

00:33:09.000 If it's symbolic, you know my thoughts that the serious strike was delivered to send a message to Russia, Iran, and North Korea.

00:33:17.000 And I've made it clear on this show before I think Trump is firmly in control of the White House.

00:33:22.000 It's all part of a five dimensional strategy.

00:33:25.000 And where do you disagree?

00:33:26.000 Tell us where you take issue with all of this.

00:33:29.000 Well, you know, first of all, I think I would disagree with the phone calls accomplish nothing.

00:33:37.000 Simply because we don't know what he was planning.

00:33:40.000 We don't know what intelligence is coming across his desk.

00:33:44.000 And frankly, I don't think we even know exactly what his process would be, right?

00:33:50.000 And so, can you hear that background noise, by the way?

00:33:54.000 Is that me or is that you?

00:33:57.000 Do you hear that?

00:33:57.000 My phone's going off.

00:33:59.000 Hold on, hold on a second.

00:34:01.000 That's all right.

00:34:03.000 I guess we got something going on in the background.

00:34:05.000 Sounds like some kind of sinister.

00:34:08.000 Sorry about that.

00:34:10.000 Totally unprofessional.

00:34:11.000 Oh, no problem.

00:34:13.000 Where was I?

00:34:15.000 So, yeah, I disagree with the activism not accomplishing anything.

00:34:21.000 And the other thing, as well, that I think regarding the activism leading up to the strikes was that I think it's important, even though this time there was no march or anything like that that was happening, which I think was a shame.

00:34:37.000 I think that would have been a good example of IRL activism. 0.61

00:34:41.000 Going out there into the meat space and showing that movement leaders are actively opposed to another Zionist war in Syria, right?

00:34:52.000 Because we know the left isn't going to rally.

00:34:55.000 And that would have set us apart from every other movement.

00:34:59.000 Even the libertarians who, when Ron Paul was around, all the libertarians were anti war.

00:35:05.000 Well, now the Ron Paul faction's kind of dissipated, right?

00:35:08.000 And you have these Beltway libertarians who sometimes they'll say something mildly anti war, but.

00:35:14.000 They'll never go beyond that.

00:35:15.000 And some are actively pro war, right?

00:35:19.000 So I think that would have been a really good thing for the dissident right wing to do show up in meet space, show people that they're against the war.

00:35:27.000 But short of that, you know, I think the whole like Twitter outrage and Facebook, whatever, YouTube, et cetera, I think it was good to show that we are anti war in Syria and that we're willing to go against the president if he does go to war.

00:35:44.000 Now, that said, I agreed with a lot of what you said criticizing those people who are out there publicly criticizing Trump because I did personally think the whole, oh, neocon Don thing was over the top.

00:35:59.000 You know, at that point, he hadn't done the Syria strike.

00:36:02.000 And even after the Syria strike, it seemed like a one off thing, right?

00:36:06.000 So he's not being a neoconservative, but I think it was good for us to show that we're against the Syria strikes. 0.66

00:36:14.000 We're against another war in Syria, in the Middle East.

00:36:19.000 And the other thing I'd say is, you know, I think a key point to what you argue is that the Syria strikes were merely symbolic.

00:36:29.000 Right.

00:36:30.000 Right.

00:36:30.000 And I don't really agree with that.

00:36:34.000 You know, if we go back to a year ago, the first Syria strikes destroyed 20% of their air force.

00:36:40.000 Which for a small country, that's a lot.

00:36:40.000 Right.

00:36:44.000 You know, they're not going to just churn out new, you know, bomber planes or fighter planes or whatever.

00:36:50.000 Right.

00:36:51.000 Like that costs a lot of money.

00:36:53.000 I mean, obviously, their country is in the civil war.

00:36:55.000 So taking out 20% of their air force is a big hit.

00:36:59.000 To the Syrian government and to their ability to fight radical Islamic terrorists.

00:37:05.000 And then more recently, yes, this more recent attack, maybe you could say it was a little more symbolic, but still an act of war.

00:37:12.000 We're bombing their research facilities.

00:37:16.000 It's like, I think J.F. Gary Apie, or however you say his name, he made this point on a recent stream.

00:37:22.000 It's like bombing their equivalent of the NIH.

00:37:25.000 I know there's some debate about what the facilities exactly did that we bombed.

00:37:30.000 All right, but what if they do military research?

00:37:33.000 You know, what if they do research on how to, you know, a new weapon or new bombs or new rifles or whatever? 0.64

00:37:39.000 I don't think we're creating goodwill for the United States or for, you know, the American people when we go bomb the government of a country that's actively fighting radical Islamic terrorists, right? 0.79

00:37:55.000 If anything, I think we should be helping Assad destroy ISIS and then getting, you know, getting the hell out of the Middle East.

00:38:04.000 So, That's kind of where I would split up with your argument.

00:38:09.000 And then lastly, I'm not going to go into this much unless you want to talk about it, but I don't think that the Syria strikes really helped with the North Korea peace deal.

00:38:20.000 I think those are completely separate.

00:38:22.000 I think what happened with North Korea or what is happening right now with our negotiations would have happened regardless. 0.57

00:38:31.000 And, you know, I don't see why a country would give up its nukes.

00:38:36.000 After they see us attacking a country that doesn't have nukes.

00:38:40.000 The whole point of having nukes is to have a deterrent against the United States and against other powerful nations, not to, like, why would they give it up?

00:38:50.000 I don't understand that.

00:38:51.000 But what's your response?

00:38:53.000 Yeah, well, on the first point about activism, I would actually agree with you.

00:38:57.000 I think the middle ground between us is that we recognize that activism is useful, but we also understand that there's excesses of the criticism of Trump.

00:39:07.000 And that's really where I come from.

00:39:10.000 I think there is a lot of cheerleading for people doing any kind of activism at all, or even people criticizing Trump.

00:39:16.000 I think there's a lot of cheerleading for people going after Trump and all that kind of thing.

00:39:21.000 We know that every time Trump doesn't do something we like, the dopamine rush that people get for criticizing Trump, whether you call him Amnesty Don or Neocon Don, it's through the roof.

00:39:31.000 And so that's really where I come at it I'm okay with people calling the White House.

00:39:36.000 Sometimes I think it's more effective than at other times, but I'm just really against people who say Trump has betrayed us and it makes no difference if Hillary Clinton were president right now.

00:39:46.000 And basically it doesn't matter who gets elected and therefore you shouldn't participate in the process.

00:39:51.000 And that's where I really have trouble with the conclusions because you know people.

00:39:55.000 People's heads go there.

00:39:57.000 You know, it may start out with Trump doesn't, you know, Trump needs to be guided in this direction.

00:40:03.000 But for many people, it ends up as it doesn't matter if Trump was somebody else, and therefore it doesn't matter who's president, and therefore why should I bother?

00:40:11.000 And so that's really the only thing I have an issue with.

00:40:14.000 Calling the White House, like I said, sometimes I think it's really effective, sometimes not so much, but I don't have a problem with it.

00:40:21.000 Number two, on the symbolic strikes, I would say that in the first case, Almost universally, the experts agreed it was symbolic.

00:40:30.000 And if you went in and looked, China's approach to North Korea was very different before and after the strikes.

00:40:37.000 This was a new presidency.

00:40:39.000 The strike happened in April of 2017, so it was three months after the inauguration.

00:40:44.000 China, the President Xi Jinping, was at Mar a Lago at the time of the strikes.

00:40:49.000 I think there was no other way, you know, it had to have been.

00:40:52.000 And then in this case, as you said, maybe there's a stronger case because they only bombed a few empty facilities.

00:40:59.000 And I would say that.

00:41:01.000 I understand the concern that we're destroying a sovereign nation or we're attacking, rather, a sovereign nation.

00:41:07.000 It's an act of war.

00:41:09.000 It's against a regime which is fighting terrorists.

00:41:11.000 Don't get me wrong. 0.83

00:41:12.000 I'm pro Assad. 0.55

00:41:13.000 I want him to win the civil war.

00:41:14.000 I think he's done a fantastic job.

00:41:17.000 And even before the civil war, few people mentioned this, but even before the civil war, he's been helping us with our terrorists since as far back as the 1990s, torturing them, capturing them, like literally. 0.91

00:41:28.000 And so, you know, I think the Assad regime is. 0.79

00:41:32.000 Is in comparison to some of the other regimes that we're allied with, I think, a relatively good one. 0.83

00:41:38.000 But I just think that you have to look at foreign affairs in terms of not what is ideal, but what is there.

00:41:46.000 Ideally, should we have these principles of not attacking countries that are doing good work?

00:41:52.000 I mean, ideally, we wouldn't attack Assad at all.

00:41:52.000 Yeah.

00:41:54.000 Ideally, we'd be helping him.

00:41:56.000 But I look at the situation in North Korea, and I think the gap is very narrow in terms of making diplomacy work.

00:42:04.000 We have very, very few options to make that work.

00:42:07.000 I think one of the things that we can do, which is very persuasive, is to try to convince Kim Jong un that we're willing to use military force.

00:42:17.000 I think after eight years of Obama and Trump being a non interventionist and also running on being a non interventionist and being a new president, I think there's an attitude that maybe we could keep doing this.

00:42:28.000 We could keep developing our arsenal and probably not pay a price because Trump wouldn't go to war.

00:42:33.000 He's against war.

00:42:34.000 They just got out of wars.

00:42:35.000 So I think there is a very.

00:42:38.000 Valuable reason for why we do a strike like this.

00:42:41.000 I simply think it outweighs the cost of doing it, but that doesn't mean I don't acknowledge the cost.

00:42:46.000 Though the last point, which is you think they're separate issues, I would say I understand the thinking there.

00:42:53.000 And I think the second strike, it's a little bit more dubious because, of course, the first strike, it was when Xi Jinping was at Mar-a-Lago.

00:43:01.000 So it's almost hard to say that they had nothing to do with it in the first one.

00:43:05.000 And the second one, I think it's a little bit more ambiguous.

00:43:08.000 But I think that it's always a good thing for the president to demonstrate that he's either crazy or that he's willing to use force.

00:43:15.000 I think those two things are very valuable.

00:43:17.000 And so, no, I'm sorry.

00:43:18.000 The last one was that Kim Jong un, why would he give up his arsenal if he believed that we would attack somebody who doesn't? 0.55

00:43:26.000 I think that Kim Jong un is not looking at it so much as, well, Trump attacked Assad, so he'll attack me.

00:43:33.000 I think he sees that as kind of a green light from Trump that if I don't get my stuff together, if I don't negotiate, he'll go to war with me.

00:43:43.000 And I think maybe we just disagree on what the a priori reasoning would be in Pyongyang.

00:43:48.000 I think he probably sees both sides.

00:43:50.000 I'm sure.

00:43:51.000 He's got advisors telling him both things.

00:43:53.000 I just think that if you're Kim Jong un, you've basically got a dagger hanging above your head.

00:43:58.000 You've got crippling sanctions.

00:43:59.000 China's turned against you.

00:44:01.000 Russia's turned against you.

00:44:02.000 You've got three carrier strike groups in the Pacific doing drills. 0.94

00:44:06.000 You've got somebody who, by all appearances, is crazy in the White House. 0.99

00:44:10.000 Literally, the entire press of the United States says he's mentally ill. 0.98

00:44:14.000 I think it's a little bit more convincing.

00:44:16.000 But, I mean, what's the rebuttal?

00:44:18.000 Is that.

00:44:19.000 What do you think?

00:44:20.000 Well, I mean, I guess that.

00:44:22.000 The final thing you said is what we disagree on the most is I don't think he would give up his nukes if he was fearful of a US military strike.

00:44:33.000 That's just irrational. 0.52

00:44:35.000 The reason why these rogue countries, not just North Korea, Iran's a good example, the reason why they get nukes is because they know if they get them, they're not going to become another Libya.

00:44:48.000 They're not going to become another Syria or another Iraq. 0.79

00:44:52.000 They want WMDs, especially nukes. 0.69

00:44:55.000 Because, I mean, like, let's be honest, like, chemical weapons, you can put on a mask, right? 0.75

00:45:01.000 And you can send in troops wearing gear that's going to protect them from that.

00:45:05.000 But a nuke, it's pretty difficult to protect from.

00:45:09.000 And it's not just, obviously, it's not just the nuke.

00:45:12.000 North Korea has conventional artillery that can kill millions of people in, you know, minutes, right?

00:45:20.000 Definitely within hours.

00:45:22.000 So they have all those capabilities.

00:45:25.000 I don't see Kim Jong un giving up his nuke just because.

00:45:30.000 Trump bombed Syria.

00:45:32.000 And if that's why he gave it up, then I don't understand why the North Korean regime didn't give it up when George W. Bush invaded Iraq or when Obama started the war in Syria and started bombing Libya, right?

00:45:46.000 Or forced regime change twice in Egypt, right?

00:45:50.000 Our country has been very aggressive in its foreign policy, very assertive.

00:45:56.000 I mean, George W. Bush mentioned North Korea as part of the axis of evil.

00:46:01.000 If this strong, aggressive, assertive approach Worked so well to create peace. 0.94

00:46:07.000 Why didn't we get peace earlier with North Korea? 0.96

00:46:10.000 Would be my question.

00:46:11.000 But to kind of follow up on that, I think really what caused the peace process was several things.

00:46:19.000 One thing you already mentioned years of sanctions.

00:46:22.000 You know, those sanctions have been around forever.

00:46:25.000 And I think at this point, they see, you know, how well the West has developed and they want some of that money because, you know, maybe it's some negotiations that Trump is pulling with China.

00:46:38.000 Maybe China's putting pressure on them.

00:46:40.000 We don't know what's happening in the background. 0.60

00:46:43.000 But I think that is far more likely China putting pressure on them than us, than Trump appearing crazy.

00:46:52.000 I think they're too smart for that.

00:46:54.000 And the other thing, too, is we've seen things like the joint Olympic teams, right?

00:47:00.000 Stuff like that.

00:47:02.000 When Moon Jae in, the current president of South Korea, deposed the, I can't pronounce her name, like Park.

00:47:10.000 Like Yoon Hee or whatever.

00:47:14.000 The previous president of South Korea was much more, well, much less diplomatic with North Korea than the current one is, right?

00:47:23.000 The current one is extending an olive branch.

00:47:26.000 So, yeah, they've had the joint Olympic team.

00:47:31.000 Pompeo went with and met with Kim Jong un, it was April 1st, that was before the Syria strikes.

00:47:37.000 So, I think we've had a diplomatic process happening with North Korea.

00:47:42.000 And I don't think that bombing a couple facilities in Syria brought about that diplomatic process.

00:47:50.000 I think it was a combination of other factors.

00:47:54.000 And I'm willing to give credit to Trump for this.

00:47:57.000 I think he does deserve credit. 0.64

00:48:00.000 And my mom was like a Hillary voter.

00:48:03.000 So I sent her a text as soon as that peace deal was announced, or as soon as they announced some intention to do something, I was like, haha, do you feel wrong about Trump now, mom?

00:48:16.000 Great.

00:48:17.000 And so, like, I think Trump deserves credit for this. 0.84

00:48:20.000 I don't think Syria fits into this.

00:48:22.000 I think it's something separate. 0.92

00:48:24.000 If anything, why wouldn't they want to keep nukes in that case?

00:48:30.000 And yeah, I mean, the activism, but see, like, the main thing we disagreed about was the activism.

00:48:36.000 And, you know, we both agree that maybe calling Donald Trump neocon Don was too far.

00:48:42.000 I personally think that.

00:48:43.000 But I do think it was valuable for people to go out there and state the case against going to war in Syria.

00:48:50.000 Let's say that didn't affect public policy at all.

00:48:54.000 All right.

00:48:55.000 Just for the sake of argument, I don't know if it did.

00:48:58.000 I don't think either one of us can know realistically.

00:49:01.000 But, you know, let's say it didn't.

00:49:04.000 I think just by picking the fight, just by flexing our muscles, so to speak, you know, we kind of like we hit the gym and just showed what we can do on social media and via various distant right wing websites, putting up that phone number to the White House, showing that we can churn out calls. 0.85

00:49:22.000 We can bomb the White House, metaphorically speaking, of course, with phone calls and emails, et cetera, and going out there in public and saying, We're against the Zionist war and pointing out who is behind it. 0.85

00:49:34.000 And you've done a good job of that, right? 0.89

00:49:37.000 Putting out, It's the Zionist lobby. 0.90

00:49:38.000 It's the pro Israel lobby that's trying to get us involved in another war in the Middle East. 0.67

00:49:44.000 That's not in our interests, right?

00:49:46.000 And I think that's a message we have to put out there.

00:49:49.000 And the vehicle through which we can put it out there is through this activism, through, you know, whenever Trump.

00:49:56.000 Makes a misstep in our eyes in the Middle East.

00:49:59.000 We can be out there saying no more wars, right? 0.81

00:50:02.000 The American public is tired of these Middle Eastern wars.

00:50:05.000 We can be out there saying no more wars, connect with the American public on that issue, and then take another step and say, like, well, who's really behind this? 0.85

00:50:15.000 Who's really pushing for these wars that are not in our interest, right?

00:50:20.000 And I think the activism in and of itself is just valuable from that perspective, even if it doesn't have an impact on public policy.

00:50:28.000 At least at this stage.

00:50:30.000 So, yeah, I was going to say something else, but I forgot.

00:50:34.000 But let's hear your response.

00:50:36.000 Well, yeah, I mean, look, like I said, I don't disagree with the activism.

00:50:40.000 I agree it's good to flex our muscles.

00:50:42.000 I agree with all of that.

00:50:44.000 I don't disagree with anything you just said about activism.

00:50:47.000 The only, again, my only contention about activism, which I think is always misunderstood, is so long as it's within the confines of pressure or Changing people's minds or building up our network or building morale, whatever.

00:51:06.000 Once it crosses the line into electoral politics doesn't matter, once it crosses the line into the black pill, that's only then do I have a problem with it because it really scares me when you have people that are out there like yourself that say no war in Syria.

00:51:22.000 We don't want a war in Syria.

00:51:24.000 And that's fine.

00:51:25.000 But it scares me when other people who are disingenuous, frankly, who don't believe in electoral politics, they never supported Trump, they don't support Trump.

00:51:35.000 And they say, you know what?

00:51:37.000 It doesn't even matter who the president is.

00:51:39.000 And actually, you know what?

00:51:41.000 We're not going to vote in the midterms and we're not going to vote in 2020.

00:51:44.000 That's the kind of thing that scares me because if you get that kind of demoralization in the movement, sometimes it could even have the opposite effect.

00:51:53.000 We want the activism to charge up the base and energize the base and mobilize them.

00:51:58.000 Like you said, get them fired up about these issues and grow the movement.

00:52:01.000 What we don't want is for people to be so pessimistic and so cynical and so.

00:52:07.000 Hopeless, that they're turned away, they're turned off, and they don't want anything to do with that.

00:52:11.000 And I think that's a fine line to walk.

00:52:13.000 And I think you acknowledge that's a problem as well, but we have to really find a balance there.

00:52:19.000 And I'm willing to say, you know, I was right there with the caravan telling people, call the White House, tell them to stop the caravan.

00:52:25.000 I was right there when the chemical attacks happened saying, this is bogus, this is a lie, that probably didn't happen, and all the rest.

00:52:34.000 However, and I'll even agree to disagree.

00:52:37.000 About whether or not the serious strikes were symbolic.

00:52:40.000 But my only real problem at the end of the day is not with people who say Trump did something I disagreed with and whatever.

00:52:48.000 My problem is with people who say Trump did something I disagreed with and therefore he has no value or no more value than Hillary Clinton and therefore there's no value in electoral politics.

00:52:59.000 And that scares the hell out of me because you have people in this movement that, you know, like we had many super chats on this show in the past few days that say it's hopeless.

00:53:10.000 I don't believe in anything anymore.

00:53:12.000 That's one of the biggest problems apathy.

00:53:14.000 People who have checked out and they say, there's nothing I can do, so I've basically given up and I've given into this nihilism.

00:53:21.000 That's the number one issue, in my opinion.

00:53:24.000 And so, as long as it's not succumbing to that, I'm okay with it.

00:53:28.000 I endorse it.

00:53:30.000 But on the serious strikes, I mean, look, I basically, I'm at the point where it's just agree to disagree.

00:53:36.000 I think whether or not to maybe mend a little bit, to.

00:53:41.000 Reach out and maybe try and find an olive branch.

00:53:45.000 I will say that whether or not it's you believe it's viable, whether or not you believe it's successful that Trump bombs something and North Korea responds, I think very clearly we can see by what happened that that was the intention, right?

00:53:58.000 I think maybe you say, well, did that motivate the peace process?

00:54:02.000 Would that work?

00:54:04.000 Are they too smart for that?

00:54:05.000 Regardless of all of that, I think when you look at how the strike played out, in that it was You know, warned for five days.

00:54:13.000 He warned the whole planet for five days on Twitter.

00:54:15.000 He made sure it was empty.

00:54:17.000 He called the Russians beforehand.

00:54:18.000 Nobody was killed.

00:54:19.000 There were three empty buildings.

00:54:21.000 I think when you look at it like that, or last year's, the context of it where Xi Jinping was at Mar-a-Lago, I think whether or not it's working or that's a good idea, I think that was the intention.

00:54:32.000 And so we could disagree if that was a good or a bad idea, but could you at least agree that given how it played out, it's kind of hard to deny that that was symbolic?

00:54:44.000 I mean, maybe the intention was symbolic.

00:54:47.000 I'm not even sure about that.

00:54:48.000 But listen, Nick, like if someone, if say I was like, hey, Nick, you've really pissed me off about this North Korea thing or Syria, whatever, right?

00:54:59.000 Whatever you do, don't go into your kitchen tomorrow.

00:55:03.000 All right. 0.95

00:55:04.000 Because I'm going to bomb it. 0.99

00:55:06.000 And then I bomb your kitchen, you'd be pretty pissed off at me, I feel like. 0.89

00:55:10.000 And for a good reason, maybe you raided your fridge and transported all your rotisserie chicken or whatever into your basement fridge or something.

00:55:21.000 I don't know.

00:55:22.000 Maybe you got all the good cutlery out and all the plates and everything, and I bombed an empty kitchen.

00:55:27.000 But hey, that's still your kitchen, right?

00:55:31.000 And you wouldn't be too happy about that.

00:55:33.000 And that's kind of how I think about this whole, the latest Syria strike. 0.78

00:55:37.000 Uh, you know, where we bomb empty buildings like their research facilities, I don't know if they had time to get everything from those research facilities or how that worked out. 0.90

00:55:47.000 Uh, but yeah, I mean, we committed an act of aggression. 0.96

00:55:51.000 And if I were Syrian, right, I'd be pretty pissed off because, like, Assad, you know, he's not perfect or anything, uh, but he's definitely better than the alternative. 0.52

00:56:01.000 Why are you bombing my government, right?

00:56:04.000 Um, and that's that's the problem with blowback, you know, and like you said, Syria used to be.

00:56:09.000 You know, maybe they weren't our best friend or anything, but, you know, we could do extraordinary rendition to Syria and they would torture our terrorists for us, right?

00:56:18.000 Because we can't do it.

00:56:20.000 And I think, you know, putting my civil libertarian past aside here, I think that can be a valuable relationship, right?

00:56:28.000 And we're just kind of throwing all of that away.

00:56:31.000 We're saying, hey, you know, like, when we have a neoliberal president like Obama in office, we'll just throw away the relationship.

00:56:40.000 And then our supposedly America first non interventionist president who follows him is going to continue with the last president's policy of regime change, or maybe not like we're explicitly going to try to change your regime, but we're going to hurt you here and there.

00:56:56.000 Like it doesn't make sense to me.

00:56:57.000 It's all incoherent, right?

00:56:59.000 Oh, and by the way, we have troops down in Syria.

00:57:02.000 And I don't remember President Trump running a campaign on putting boots on the ground in Syria, right?

00:57:08.000 I remember him talking about bombing ISIS.

00:57:12.000 To the Stone Age or whatever, right?

00:57:14.000 But yeah, so our whole policy in Syria and in the Middle East, I think, doesn't put America first. 0.97

00:57:22.000 It's not helping us defeat radical Islam, right? 0.75

00:57:26.000 Why would we bomb Assad? 0.90

00:57:28.000 And I think we should be out there pointing that out to the public.

00:57:34.000 And I do think that, you know, maybe you're right to agree to disagree.

00:57:39.000 We just have different frameworks through which we understand foreign policy.

00:57:43.000 I do tend to think that.

00:57:44.000 North Korea, Iran, etc. 0.99

00:57:48.000 Our media, of course, paints them all as insane, all their rulers, their dictators, as crazy. 0.63

00:57:54.000 I think maybe they don't fit our Western tastes for relatively liberal government and democracy and so on, but I do think they are pretty rational.

00:58:07.000 I don't think that Kim Jong un is testing ICBNs and develop nukes or whatever.

00:58:16.000 I don't think he did that because he plans on.

00:58:19.000 Nuking LA or something like that.

00:58:21.000 That might be a welcome development.

00:58:25.000 I think he did that, or he's doing all of that.

00:58:27.000 He's done all of that because he realizes if he has a nuke, and especially if he has a nuke with the capability to strike America, that he's going to be a lot safer.

00:58:39.000 Now, I think what changed his mind in the past year, let's say, right, is the olive branch extended from Korea, maybe something Trump. 0.61

00:58:51.000 Has been, you know, doing with them.

00:58:53.000 I mean, like I said, Pompeo met with Kim Jong un April 1st, right before the serious tricks.

00:58:59.000 So, we know diplomacy has been happening on the back end. 0.68

00:59:02.000 We know that Trump has been dealing with China, which is the main provider of pretty much everything to North Korea.

00:59:11.000 So, if he can get China to exert some pressure in exchange for Trump not slamming China with new tariffs, maybe that accomplished something.

00:59:21.000 I don't think we really know.

00:59:23.000 I just don't think a government, a dictator, would give up his nuke.

00:59:29.000 He is one guarantee that we won't invade him because he saw that we bombed another country.

00:59:36.000 Like I said, if that theory, if that framework was true, then I think George W. Bush would have accomplished peace in North Korea, right?

00:59:45.000 Or unification, even maybe, right?

00:59:47.000 Because he went hard.

00:59:49.000 The rhetoric against North Korea was hard, right? 0.91

00:59:52.000 Axis of evil, right?

00:59:55.000 He didn't want them developing nukes.

00:59:57.000 He invaded Afghanistan.

00:59:59.000 He invaded Iraq. 0.52

01:00:01.000 Saddam Hussein got the noose, right?

01:00:03.000 The guy got hung.

01:00:05.000 And someone took video of it.

01:00:06.000 Like, no dictator, no ruler wants to go through that.

01:00:10.000 And if they care about their people, which I'm not sure they do, but they wouldn't want that to happen to their country, right?

01:00:16.000 Sure.

01:00:17.000 So I just don't think your framework works in this case when it comes to foreign policy.

01:00:22.000 And I think that's kind of my biggest hang up.

01:00:25.000 But the other thing, too, is like you're talking about black pillars and stuff like that.

01:00:29.000 I honestly didn't see that many people getting that black pill, saying, like, oh, we got to quit politics or whatever, right?

01:00:36.000 I saw, you know, to take a Twitter podcast personality, we both know Jazz Hands McFields, right?

01:00:44.000 Like, he called Donald Trump Neocondani.

01:00:47.000 He used that hashtag.

01:00:48.000 I think, you know, like I said, the hashtag is a little too far, but, you know, Jazz Hands isn't out there telling people to quit politics or whatever, right?

01:01:00.000 He was doing that because he was trying to generate phone calls.

01:01:03.000 He was raising awareness about the serious strike issue, et cetera, et cetera.

01:01:07.000 And, you know, we look at movement leaders.

01:01:10.000 Of various types, and I don't see any of them telling people to quit and drop out.

01:01:15.000 Do you have a counterexample, maybe?

01:01:18.000 Or is it just individuals?

01:01:20.000 We're all over the place.

01:01:21.000 We start with Trump has betrayed us on the Middle East to framework that we have.

01:01:26.000 Okay, so we'll start with the first place, which is we have boots on the ground in Syria.

01:01:35.000 Trump didn't put the boots on the ground in Syria, they were there during the Obama administration.

01:01:40.000 And so, am I wild about that?

01:01:42.000 No.

01:01:43.000 We look at a president like Nixon, who he got elected in 68 saying we were going to get out of Vietnam.

01:01:48.000 It took him five years to get us out of Vietnam.

01:01:52.000 It took us five years.

01:01:53.000 And not only that, it took a major troop surge and a massive expansion of our involvement in the Southeast Asian Peninsula.

01:02:01.000 So it wasn't like Nixon got in and he said, okay, you know, we're going to get this major mobilization out.

01:02:06.000 It took five long years.

01:02:09.000 And it took a major escalation in order to do that.

01:02:11.000 But by the end of the, or rather by the beginning of his second term, it was basically accomplished.

01:02:15.000 So I would say that.

01:02:18.000 He can't pin 18 years of neocon mobilization on Trump.

01:02:23.000 I think we got to give him a little bit of time.

01:02:25.000 The Department of Defense is the biggest organization in the world, the biggest bureaucracy in the world.

01:02:31.000 It's very difficult to change things there.

01:02:34.000 So for him to snap his fingers like Thanos and immediately it's all gone, I think it's an unrealistic expectation. 0.78

01:02:40.000 He has, however, talked about replacing the 2,500 troops and I think it's like 5,000 contractors with an Arab coalition. 0.79

01:02:49.000 We'll see if that happens, but I think that speaks to the fact that he wishes to honor his promises.

01:02:53.000 Even in Iraq, a lot of the troops are coming out of there.

01:02:56.000 So, I'm sorry, but let's talk about that. 1.00

01:03:00.000 Do you really think an Arab army could accomplish anything? 0.99

01:03:04.000 I mean, the Saudis can't even defeat rebels in Yemen. 0.99

01:03:08.000 It's not a question of whether or not they can fix it. 0.94

01:03:11.000 It's a matter of, I don't care, frankly, what they're doing there so long as that is suitable as a replacement for the United States.

01:03:19.000 It'll never be as good as the U. 0.95

01:03:20.000 I mean, to compare the United States military to the Saudi military is a joke, but it's a question of, Would you rather have it be them or us? 1.00

01:03:28.000 I'd rather have it be them. 0.96

01:03:30.000 And Trump is proposing a solution. 0.96

01:03:31.000 So on Syria, I think either way, it's too early to blame him for that.

01:03:36.000 You know, you got to at least give him half a term.

01:03:40.000 On the nuclear deterrent, you keep saying, well, North Korea's got a nuclear deterrent, and why would they give up their nuclear deterrent if we're striking other countries?

01:03:50.000 Well, if the deterrent becomes the liability, well, that would be the reason why.

01:03:56.000 If the United States is saying, insofar as you determine this deterrent, We will attack you.

01:04:02.000 Well, then it essentially ceases to be a deterrent and becomes the opposite.

01:04:06.000 If Trump, more than any other president, reaches his hand out and says, Look, if you just give it up, we will make assurances like you wouldn't believe, but otherwise we will destroy you, the deterrent becomes the very thing that it is supposed to defend against.

01:04:21.000 And you bring up George W. Bush.

01:04:23.000 When he invaded Iraq and Afghanistan in the immediate aftermath, Syria gave up, voluntarily gave up their chemical weapons program.

01:04:31.000 And Libya voluntarily gave up their nuclear program.

01:04:34.000 Actually, Muammar Gaddafi, immediately after the Iraq war, sent all their nuclear program over to a location, I think, in Tennessee in the United States.

01:04:44.000 And so the war in Iraq and Afghanistan brought about nuclear deterrence or nuclear, excuse me, nuclear nonproliferation in Libya. 0.59

01:04:52.000 So it worked there. 0.65

01:04:53.000 And I would say in this case, what the strike demonstrates is that we're willing to use force.

01:04:59.000 That's all.

01:04:59.000 That's the only reason for it.

01:05:01.000 It's not to say, look at our might or look at this or that.

01:05:03.000 It's simply to say, We made a promise that we would attack, and then we attacked.

01:05:08.000 We made good on it.

01:05:09.000 It builds credibility so that if we say we will attack you if you don't do X, at least it bears some weight.

01:05:16.000 Obviously, it's different orders of magnitude, a small strike versus an invasion, but nonetheless, the point is made.

01:05:23.000 We made a threat, we drew a red line, we followed up on it.

01:05:26.000 We're drawing a red line, and you can fill in the blanks.

01:05:29.000 And maybe they're too smart, maybe they think we won't, but at the end of the day, it's a gamble for them.

01:05:33.000 So it pays for us for them to think that we're crazy.

01:05:37.000 Well, okay, let's talk about that.

01:05:38.000 How did disarming work out for Syria and Libya?

01:05:43.000 Well, for Libya, it didn't work out well.

01:05:45.000 For Syria, it didn't work out well. 0.79

01:05:46.000 But for North Korea, what are their options?

01:05:49.000 If they don't disarm and they think Trump will invade, whether they have him or they don't, what's the safer option?

01:05:56.000 Because, of course, the nuclear deterrent would never win them the war.

01:06:00.000 It would just inflict such a high casualty count or a high body count that we would think twice before invading.

01:06:05.000 But what good is a deterrent if we're going to invade anyway?

01:06:09.000 Yeah, but why would they think.

01:06:11.000 That we would invade anyway.

01:06:12.000 I mean, Trump isn't that crazy, right?

01:06:15.000 Like, that's the point.

01:06:17.000 I think, look, like, how did not giving up weapons and developing possibly new weapons work out for Iran? 0.54

01:06:25.000 The Ayatollah is still in power, right? 0.85

01:06:29.000 How did giving up their nuclear program work for Muammar Gaddafi, right? 0.93

01:06:36.000 The guy got murdered on camera, right?

01:06:40.000 Like, That tortured, you know.

01:06:43.000 I mean, I don't know if the actual murder was caught on the video, but the video I saw, the guy looked like he just survived torture.

01:06:51.000 He was all bloody and everything.

01:06:52.000 And then supposedly they killed him after, right?

01:06:55.000 Like, if I'm Kim Jong un and I see that, I'm like, oh, well, this is what giving up nukes gets me, right?

01:07:02.000 Maybe it's not this administration.

01:07:03.000 Maybe Trump is going to be cool.

01:07:05.000 But what happens the next administration, right?

01:07:08.000 What happens when, I don't know, Hillary Clinton 2.0, whatever, becomes president?

01:07:15.000 Well, they're just going to invade me, right?

01:07:17.000 And I'm going to be the guy getting hung like Saddam Hussein or getting tortured to death like Muammar Gaddafi. 0.89

01:07:24.000 Or, you know, at the very least, maybe they'll fund some rebels in my country. 0.54

01:07:29.000 And try to overthrow me like they're doing right now to Assad or like Obama did to Assad.

01:07:34.000 So I don't think it's a rational decision for Kim Jong un to give up his nuke, his one deterrent, right?

01:07:44.000 In the face of that, it has to be that we did something else, right?

01:07:49.000 It's our dealings with China.

01:07:52.000 I think it's the new president in South Korea.

01:07:55.000 I think it's the fact that the two Koreas have been cooperating more lately.

01:08:00.000 With the Olympics, that's just the most visible example of that, right?

01:08:04.000 To the public, to those of us who aren't in the State Department and aren't privy to everything that's happening behind the scenes.

01:08:12.000 So I do think that, you know, this more non interventionist, this more diplomatic, peaceful process is what's getting the results, right?

01:08:24.000 I think this is important.

01:08:25.000 This is an important idea to drive home and an important framework to explain to people because if we think that strength works, right?

01:08:35.000 Then the next time there's a George W. Bush who wants to invade Iraq, right?

01:08:39.000 We're all going to be like, yeah, it's going to show us, show the world we're super strong, and then they're going to do whatever we want, right?

01:08:45.000 I don't think that's how diplomacy works.

01:08:47.000 I think a lot of these countries, especially like the North Koreas, the Irans, when they see us doing that, they want to arm up.

01:08:55.000 That's the rational response because it's either that or they get on board with our neoliberal program.

01:09:03.000 And, you know, that's not something they're going to do.

01:09:05.000 Because that means losing power.

01:09:08.000 So, yeah, I just honestly, I think your whole point is wrong on that fundamental level.

01:09:15.000 Okay, but this is just a denial.

01:09:16.000 This is just blatant context denial.

01:09:19.000 I mean, of course, it's a cogent point, and it's one that's made by a lot of people that what happened to Muammar Gaddafi? 0.57

01:09:25.000 Yes, this is why North Korea is developing a nuclear arsenal.

01:09:28.000 But we return to the point at hand, which is if the deterrent becomes a liability, it ceases to be an adequate deterrent, which if Trump can demonstrate, That he is, as you say, mad enough to destroy North Korea, even if they have nuclear weapons.

01:09:45.000 If he can demonstrate he's willing to use force and he's crazy enough to do it, then the nuclear weapons, it doesn't matter.

01:09:52.000 If the two options are destroyed for having nuclear weapons or not destroyed, maybe destroyed at a later date, the immediate decision is not difficult for North Korea. 0.53

01:10:03.000 And I'm not saying that sanctions aren't a factor, I'm not saying that the strikes are the only thing.

01:10:09.000 But you look at that strike, And whether or not you agree that it works, whether or not you think it makes sense or whatever, there is simply no denying that the intention was to be symbolic.

01:10:20.000 What else would be the intention to blow up three empty buildings unless there's something we don't know, unless like a copy of the Constitution was in there or I don't know, like the Ark of the Covenant?

01:10:29.000 You don't warn for five days that you're going to strike.

01:10:33.000 You don't call the Russians and make sure they're okay with it and then strike three empty buildings and then do nothing else.

01:10:40.000 I mean, there's simply no military.

01:10:42.000 Or strategic explanation for it.

01:10:44.000 John Bolton proposed that we wipe out their entire air force.

01:10:47.000 We do a massive raid, and that would have changed the military situation on the ground.

01:10:52.000 The strike that was done, it's reported by Syria and Russia that it changed nothing about the battle on the ground.

01:10:57.000 So there's not a strategic explanation.

01:11:00.000 I don't really think it makes sense any other way than that you blow up these three empty buildings after warning, after warning, after warning, other than to be symbolic.

01:11:09.000 You don't have to agree that it makes sense or that it worked, but I think that was the intention.

01:11:14.000 Why I think it works, why I think it does make sense, is because regardless of whether or not Libya was killed or Gaddafi or any of that, they have three carrier strike groups in the Pacific. 0.62

01:11:25.000 Trump is saying, I promise I will destroy you if you don't denuke. 0.59

01:11:29.000 And here, I blew up that guy and I said I would too.

01:11:32.000 So Kim Jong un, he may be thinking, well, I should keep these because otherwise they'll attack.

01:11:38.000 But then Trump is saying, if you don't give them up, I'll attack anyway.

01:11:41.000 So that's why that calculus, like, I understand it.

01:11:44.000 I get it.

01:11:45.000 Maybe that was the calculus before we had an administration that was really pushing the brinksmanship with North Korea.

01:11:51.000 They could do with that with Barack Obama because Barack Obama wasn't threatening them on Twitter and they didn't have three carriers in the Pacific.

01:11:58.000 But with Trump, That's what's happening.

01:12:00.000 So I think that it does work.

01:12:03.000 I think you're basically just denying the facts of the strike, and I think you're denying the context of the Trump administration and their approach to Korea.

01:12:17.000 No, I mean, I think you're denying the context of what's happening in the Koreas right now.

01:12:22.000 I mean, for example, their nuclear test site collapsed, right?

01:12:28.000 And that's near the Chinese border.

01:12:30.000 Right.

01:12:31.000 So, and China might have to deal with the radioactive waste.

01:12:34.000 So, I think maybe that was part of it.

01:12:36.000 I think maybe all of the diplomacy, well, not maybe, I think definitely all of the diplomacy leading up to this decision, right?

01:12:46.000 And nothing's gone through, by the way, right?

01:12:49.000 For, you know, I mean, the history of North Korea, like, they might as well renege. 0.77

01:12:54.000 I mean, that might happen.

01:12:55.000 We don't know yet.

01:12:56.000 But based on what we know now, I think all the diplomacy leading up to it, I think the change in the president of South Korea, I think.

01:13:04.000 Possible pressure from China and what Trump is doing there with China.

01:13:09.000 I think all of that is far more likely to get them to disarm than Trump striking Syria.

01:13:19.000 Okay.

01:13:19.000 Because I don't want to make this argument again because I think we're just like chasing our tail at this point, right?

01:13:28.000 But like, why would you give up your deterrent?

01:13:32.000 I don't think like your whole point is well, if you don't give up your deterrent, we're just mad enough to bomb you anyway.

01:13:38.000 Yeah.

01:13:39.000 And I just don't find that a very convincing or persuasive argument, you know, because like all you have to do is look at every other dictator that gave up their deterrent, right?

01:13:52.000 Like Muammar Gaddafi.

01:13:53.000 And then look at the ones who didn't.

01:13:55.000 Why isn't Trump going up there and getting Iran to disarm with the exact same tactic? 0.54

01:14:00.000 That'll be next. 0.55

01:14:01.000 That'll be next.

01:14:01.000 You watch with the deal.

01:14:04.000 Hey, if he gets Iran to disarm.

01:14:12.000 I don't want to make any bets with you, actually.

01:14:14.000 I don't want to end up in a James Alcott situation.

01:14:17.000 That's right.

01:14:18.000 No Milton's coffee pasta, right?

01:14:20.000 No, I like James, but yeah.

01:14:24.000 No, but look, I'll be impressed if Trump gets something done with Iran, but I don't think the bricksmanship, the whole aggressive behavior gets everything done because, you know, if it did work, then it would have worked for George W. Bush.

01:14:39.000 I think it would have worked for Obama because, you know, people on the right, conservatives, the more mainstream conservatives, And you're kind of echoing this argument in some ways.

01:14:51.000 You know, they all think like, oh, Obama was weak, blah, blah, blah.

01:14:54.000 Well, I mean, Obama forced regime change in Egypt twice.

01:15:00.000 He, you know, started everything that's happening in Syria.

01:15:03.000 He bombed Libya and, you know, armed the rebels in Syria and in Libya.

01:15:10.000 He did all of these other things that, you know, had Trump done him, then we'd have, you know, John Bolton and what's that Hungarian guy with the weird accent? 0.52

01:15:21.000 Oh, yeah, yeah.

01:15:22.000 Yeah.

01:15:22.000 His name escapes me right now, too.

01:15:24.000 Gorka, Sebastian Gorka.

01:15:25.000 Yeah.

01:15:26.000 Gorka would be on Fox News saying how, like, ooh, Trump is so strong because he just bombed Libya, right?

01:15:33.000 But because Obama did it, where all these conservatives, Fox News types are like, oh, he was weak.

01:15:38.000 He didn't go far enough or whatever, right?

01:15:42.000 So I don't understand why something doesn't work for Obama, something doesn't work for George W. Bush, but then it just works for Trump.

01:15:50.000 I think you're dropping the context.

01:15:52.000 Oh, But I think we might have to agree to disagree unless you have something new to add.

01:15:57.000 Well, my one, I will add, it's kind of new here.

01:16:01.000 What I talked about in my debate with Vendetta, I debated him about North Korea in the fall. 0.99

01:16:09.000 And what I said was this I said war would be justified.

01:16:13.000 I didn't say I ever supported war because I didn't. 0.88

01:16:17.000 But I said war would be justified because what you had between the United States and North Korea is a real contradiction. 0.71

01:16:24.000 In their grand strategies, in the sense that the fundamental pillar of American foreign policy was nuclear nonproliferation.

01:16:32.000 They didn't want rogue states to have nuclear weapons.

01:16:34.000 That was like the number one priority.

01:16:36.000 The grand strategy of North Korea was to have a nuclear weapon to deter Western intervention or other great power intervention.

01:16:44.000 These are diametrically opposed.

01:16:47.000 And unless you can finesse it with diplomacy, they would have to come into contact, right?

01:16:52.000 I mean, there's just no resolving the fact that it's a zero sum game between those two objectives.

01:16:57.000 If the United States achieves their objectives, North Korea doesn't have a weapon. 0.61

01:17:01.000 North Korea does, they reject the United States' strategy.

01:17:04.000 So, if you understand that that's where they're coming from, I think what Trump did was persuade North Korea that their grand strategy was wrong, essentially.

01:17:15.000 I think with those serious strikes, he changed that calculation where the nuclear arsenal, instead of being the guarantor of their safety, became the greatest liability that they had.

01:17:26.000 And that's why, and I agree with you, the diplomacy is a part of it.

01:17:30.000 The economic sanctions are a part of it.

01:17:32.000 South Korea's president, it's all a part of it.

01:17:34.000 But I think Trump convincing North Korea, but also China, that he was serious about war, that in spite of a nuclear deterrent, he would go in anyway.

01:17:44.000 And it wouldn't even matter because it wouldn't deter him.

01:17:46.000 The deterrent would not deter him.

01:17:49.000 I think he convinced both Beijing and Pyongyang, maybe even more so Beijing, that he was serious about war, and therefore they had to get serious about peace. 0.71

01:17:58.000 Because otherwise, If there is that contradiction and the United States says we won't compromise, we won't be patient, we won't allow it, everybody knows the United States would win.

01:18:08.000 And that'd be a bad thing for North Korea and China.

01:18:10.000 And so they said, you know what?

01:18:12.000 This deterrence will not deter Trump.

01:18:15.000 And therefore, it's just a big liability.

01:18:17.000 So we have to get rid of it.

01:18:18.000 And I think it was not all of it, but I think it was necessary that it happened.

01:18:23.000 But I'll give you the last, you can rebut, and I'll give you the last word, and then we could do closing thoughts.

01:18:32.000 There's not much to rebut because we do have just fundamentally different frameworks.

01:18:37.000 I think it is much more likely than rather than convincing them to give up their deterrent by showing them that Trump is mad enough that he might just strike them, which would cost millions of civilian lives pretty much instantly gone because of all the, even without the nuke, all of their conventional weaponry, right, along the border, like they can take out Seoul, right?

01:19:02.000 But I think far more likely is the dealings that Trump has had with China behind the scenes.

01:19:11.000 He could threaten to slap them with tariffs, pursue something in the WTO for their currency manipulation, et cetera.

01:19:20.000 He could really hurt their economy.

01:19:22.000 And I think he's using that as leverage to get China to put pressure on North Korea because we haven't really seen much else get done with China.

01:19:31.000 And so I think that's what Trump has been doing, trying to solve this Korea issue by using China.

01:19:40.000 And The all the other diplomacy that I already mentioned, so I don't want to bore you know listeners with uh by reiterating myself.

01:19:49.000 Um, but I think you know, leaving that aside, regardless of what you think about this, I think the outrage that people on the dissident right showed about the serious strikes, right?

01:20:02.000 I think that was good because it shows that we have a backbone, we're independent, we're not just here to cheerlead politicians, right?

01:20:12.000 And that shows politicians in the future who You know, rely on us for support.

01:20:19.000 I think Trump needs us, right?

01:20:22.000 Because he didn't win by a huge margin in states like Michigan, in states like Pennsylvania or Wisconsin, right?

01:20:30.000 And he needs every vote he can get.

01:20:32.000 And I think he does need the dissident right wing, which I'd say is kind of a broad movement.

01:20:39.000 I fit a lot of different nationalist groups into that category.

01:20:44.000 But he does need us, right?

01:20:46.000 And what do we want?

01:20:47.000 We want non intervention.

01:20:49.000 We want a closed border, essentially, right?

01:20:52.000 And some other things.

01:20:53.000 But those are the two main defining issues for us, for our movement.

01:20:58.000 I think by showing the public, showing President Trump that we care about this issue, I think he's going to think twice when it comes to foreign policy, maybe.

01:21:09.000 I think also it just shows the general public, like, hey, we're the only serious game in town when it comes to opposing more wars overseas, right?

01:21:18.000 And I think that's going to help us grow.

01:21:20.000 I think when it comes to issues like the Syria strikes, I think the distant right wing needs to be more vocal and needs to start getting back into meat space, into the real world, and show hey, we're going to protest this, the Syria strike, we're going to be anti war.

01:21:42.000 And who is it that is pushing for more war?

01:21:47.000 And point that out, right?

01:21:49.000 And point out who isn't protesting the wars.

01:21:52.000 It's not Antifa.

01:21:54.000 Right, Antifa's not protesting the war, the left isn't protesting the war, Democrats aren't protesting the war.

01:22:01.000 The real anti war movement is on the right.

01:22:03.000 So, if you're anti war, which a lot of people in America, I think, after Iraq, after Afghanistan, they've grown tired, but they don't have good answers.

01:22:12.000 And I think this is our opportunity to get answers out to the public about foreign policy and who controls our foreign policy.

01:22:21.000 So, very good.

01:22:23.000 I agree with all of that, or towards the second half of that on activism.

01:22:29.000 And very good.

01:22:30.000 I guess we'll leave it at that.

01:22:31.000 But thanks so much for coming on.

01:22:33.000 I've had a great time, great, great informative talk about activism, and I think a pretty good discussion about foreign policy as well.

01:22:40.000 So we'll have to do it again sometime.

01:22:42.000 Thanks for coming.

01:22:44.000 It was a pleasure.

01:22:44.000 Thanks, Nick.

01:22:45.000 All right.

01:22:46.000 Take it easy, big guy.

01:22:48.000 Bye bye.

01:22:50.000 A fun talk with Mr. Alex Wytoslawski.

01:22:53.000 Hope you all enjoyed a real treat and a nice guy, a friend of mine for a while now.

01:23:00.000 We've been friends for probably about a year and a half, year and a quarter.

01:23:04.000 So, a good man, and he knows his stuff about the electoral stuff.

01:23:08.000 He knows his stuff about activism, and he's really an asset for the movement.

01:23:13.000 It's a shame that we don't have more people like him, just generally, and it's a shame we don't have more people like him in leadership.

01:23:21.000 You know, we've got no shortage of intellectuals, podcast hosts that think they're going to lead the movement or they're putting things together.

01:23:29.000 We need people like him that are either at the head or they're advising people at the head because that's the kind of logistical and just pragmatic.

01:23:38.000 Knowledge, information that we're going to need to really push forward and move forward.

01:23:43.000 So let's see.

01:23:45.000 We'll look at our super chats and our Stream Labs.

01:23:49.000 We'll do our Stream Labs first and then our Super Chats and then we'll call it night.

01:23:52.000 We're already an hour and a half in and I'm tired, but I march on for you, but I do it for you.

01:24:00.000 You ingrate.

01:24:01.000 I kid, you're all very grateful.

01:24:02.000 I know.

01:24:03.000 I know you're all very grateful.

01:24:04.000 You're all thanking me.

01:24:06.000 So I'll pull up our Stream Labs and we'll see what we got.

01:24:12.000 My back's hurting a little bit.

01:24:14.000 I've been sitting upright all day.

01:24:18.000 And let's take a look.

01:24:22.000 We've got Docile Civilian who says, Good evening, Nick.

01:24:28.000 And let me move the microphone over here again.

01:24:30.000 Good evening, Nick.

01:24:31.000 Following your recent tangent into esoteric whiteboardism, could I request you have Kantbot on as a guest?

01:24:38.000 I may do that.

01:24:40.000 I'm a big fan of his, so I may bring him on the show sometime.

01:24:43.000 He's a good chap.

01:24:45.000 M103 Heavy says, keep the white pills coming. 0.73

01:24:48.000 Always, always white pills.

01:24:50.000 White pills every day.

01:24:51.000 Look, there's plenty of people who can give out the black pills. 0.97

01:24:54.000 You come here for the white pill. 0.97

01:24:55.000 And it's good white pills.

01:24:57.000 And then we got Party Goy, who is dropping some very choice comments in the Twitch chat. 0.69

01:25:07.000 His first one says, pee and poo.

01:25:11.000 And his, I can't read the second one. 0.96

01:25:13.000 It's a little too vulgar.

01:25:14.000 The third says, the Unabomber had a point.

01:25:17.000 And here we have another one who says, Higher Love intro slash outro song for the show.

01:25:23.000 He's a big fan of that song.

01:25:24.000 Yeah, maybe one day, Goy.

01:25:26.000 But thanks for the bits.

01:25:27.000 Appreciate y'all.

01:25:28.000 That's all of our Streamlabs.

01:25:29.000 Very disappointing.

01:25:30.000 We got to get people over on the Streamlabs.

01:25:32.000 Well, let's see what we got from our Super Chats.

01:25:35.000 We'll take a look here.

01:25:38.000 Adam Smith says, 2% nicker. 0.96

01:25:40.000 It's true. 0.97

01:25:41.000 2%, well, I'm 100% nicker, and I'm 2% African. 0.65

01:25:48.000 Which allows me to say the other word.

01:25:50.000 So if it ever comes out, if I ever say it, and I never would say anything vulgar like that, you know, God forbid you would ever say, you can never say that.

01:26:00.000 But if, God forbid, I ever wanted to say it for any reason, I can.

01:26:04.000 And nobody can tell me otherwise because I'm black, 2% black.

01:26:08.000 So some white boy wants to explain to me about what I can and can't say?

01:26:14.000 I don't think so.

01:26:16.000 I don't think so.

01:26:17.000 Oh, sorry, master.

01:26:19.000 Did I say the wrong word?

01:26:20.000 Yeah.

01:26:21.000 Not going to happen.

01:26:22.000 I am a proud 2% black man and white boy.

01:26:26.000 You're not going to tell me, you're not going to take that word from me.

01:26:30.000 You're not going to tell me I'm not African enough to say it.

01:26:33.000 So I'll say it all day long.

01:26:36.000 I can do it.

01:26:38.000 I won't.

01:26:39.000 I won't.

01:26:40.000 But remember, I always could if I wanted to.

01:26:43.000 I'm there.

01:26:44.000 So I don't want any modern day slaveholders to come and beat me like a runaway slave because I said the wrong word.

01:26:54.000 All right?

01:26:54.000 I'm basically on a plantation verbally.

01:26:57.000 God, so tired of a white man keeping me down, keeping a good nicker down. 0.70

01:27:02.000 And I mean, Nick. 0.92

01:27:03.000 Because my name's Nick.

01:27:05.000 Simon Skolis has been watching Pastor Steven Anderson.

01:27:08.000 Good guy.

01:27:09.000 Very good guy.

01:27:11.000 Joshua Larson says, Remember, fellas, don't put anyone down except in your prayer book.

01:27:16.000 I like that.

01:27:17.000 Very good.

01:27:17.000 Yes.

01:27:18.000 Sommerled's Ghost says, Those counter signaling Alex either have a sub 85 IQ or haven't participated in effective activism or campaign politics.

01:27:28.000 Get off the couch, folks.

01:27:31.000 Very true.

01:27:31.000 True.

01:27:33.000 Excuse me.

01:27:36.000 Cloudstar says, Can you go on a rant about Ben Shapiro?

01:27:39.000 I'm not going to go on a rant like a trained monkey.

01:27:42.000 If I feel something about Ben Shapiro, I'll go on a rant, but I'm not going to do it because he told me to.

01:27:47.000 In fact, I may do the opposite.

01:27:49.000 I may say he has good attributes.

01:27:51.000 No, I hate Ben Shapiro. 0.99

01:27:53.000 I hate him. 0.66

01:27:55.000 I really don't like him. 1.00

01:27:56.000 I think he's a fraud. 0.99

01:27:57.000 I think he's not very smart. 0.98

01:27:59.000 I think he's not a good debater.

01:28:00.000 I think he's not good at what he does.

01:28:01.000 I don't think, I don't know if he works hard.

01:28:03.000 I can't speak to that. 0.97

01:28:05.000 But I think he's a nasty guy. 1.00

01:28:06.000 I think he's a liar and a hypocrite. 1.00

01:28:09.000 And I just have nothing positive to say about him. 1.00

01:28:12.000 Nasty guy. 0.98

01:28:14.000 So, not a fan. 1.00

01:28:16.000 And he's a racist, too.

01:28:17.000 SV says, good guest, spot on.

01:28:20.000 We must begin to infiltrate the GOP, et cetera, and keep our power levels hidden until TDOTR.

01:28:29.000 I couldn't tell you what that stands for.

01:28:30.000 I have no idea what that acronym means.

01:28:33.000 Nick, keep going.

01:28:34.000 You're truly doing God's work.

01:28:36.000 Thank you, big guy.

01:28:36.000 Appreciate you.

01:28:37.000 And yeah, I think that was a.

01:28:39.000 A fantastic spot that he did about activism.

01:28:42.000 Ian Weber says, just so you know, you still got the maker support in the description.

01:28:46.000 I'll have to go in and change that, I guess.

01:28:49.000 Blunderbuss says, Nick, can you knife JF for Shoah ing super chats?

01:28:53.000 I'll have to.

01:28:54.000 I'll have to take it up with them. 1.00

01:28:56.000 The Frenchman, the greedy Frenchman. 1.00

01:28:58.000 Yes. 1.00

01:28:59.000 Ian Weber, why are the numbers so low tonight?

01:29:01.000 Is there some big stream or was it Mossad?

01:29:03.000 Yeah, I don't know.

01:29:05.000 I don't know.

01:29:06.000 Lower numbers than usual.

01:29:07.000 Much lower than usual.

01:29:08.000 I don't know.

01:29:08.000 Yesterday we were doing what?

01:29:11.000 Doing pretty good.

01:29:12.000 And the day before, we were at what even is today?

01:29:15.000 Today's Wednesday?

01:29:16.000 Monday, we were at 900.

01:29:16.000 I'm forgetting.

01:29:18.000 Today, we're down.

01:29:18.000 It's like half.

01:29:19.000 I don't know what's going on.

01:29:21.000 Maybe it is the massage.

01:29:22.000 Maybe it was because I was just on stream with Spencer before people got their Nick fix for the evening, right?

01:29:29.000 I don't know.

01:29:30.000 Maybe it's people are watching Ice Poseidon.

01:29:33.000 But let's take a look at our other super chat.

01:29:36.000 I think we got one more.

01:29:38.000 Valentin for $50 for $50 dues.

01:29:41.000 Much appreciated.

01:29:42.000 Who says, it is possible that you are both correct.

01:29:45.000 It's entirely possible that a maximum pressure campaign in conjunction with China, as well as threats and a show of force, are all valid reasons.

01:29:52.000 That's my position. 1.00

01:29:53.000 I said they're all valid.

01:29:55.000 But Alex says it's entirely can't happen with the strikes.

01:30:00.000 And we got one more super chat.

01:30:02.000 Party Goy says the day of the rope.

01:30:04.000 Yeah, I knew what it meant.

01:30:06.000 Okay, I was trying to maintain some plausible deniability, all right?

01:30:09.000 But, you know, thanks for solving it for me.

01:30:12.000 But it looks like those are all of our super chats and all of our stream labs.

01:30:16.000 I'm exhausted.

01:30:17.000 I've had a long day.

01:30:19.000 I had a meeting with a good friend, family friend, this morning.

01:30:22.000 And then I got a very nice chocolate cake shake from Portillo's, which was very, which was tops.

01:30:31.000 And then I was on my stream with Spencer.

01:30:33.000 That was a couple of hours.

01:30:35.000 And Spencer, I like him.

01:30:37.000 He's an intelligent guy, but a little bit long winded.

01:30:39.000 Look, he's smart.

01:30:41.000 Don't get me wrong.

01:30:41.000 And I like listening, but it's like, whoa.

01:30:44.000 You know, he gets going and he goes, and that's good.

01:30:47.000 God bless him.

01:30:47.000 He likes.

01:30:49.000 And it's good content.

01:30:50.000 But it was a long stream.

01:30:51.000 And then this one is another.

01:30:53.000 I've been streaming for four hours.

01:30:55.000 Can you believe it?

01:30:56.000 Four hours since five o'clock.

01:30:58.000 It's almost nine o'clock.

01:31:00.000 A long time.

01:31:01.000 So I think we're ready to throw in the towel for tonight.

01:31:04.000 We're ready to just resign for the night.

01:31:09.000 A quick update, though, for anybody that's interested on the woman situation.

01:31:14.000 I talked briefly on Monday's show about a situation with some woman in the Discord.

01:31:18.000 It turns out she was playing both me and Spencer.

01:31:22.000 We talked last night before our appearance because remember, I said Spencer was kind of going along with what was going on.

01:31:28.000 People, maybe people don't remember from Monday, but long story short, there's these two thoughts from my college that are really causing trouble with me.

01:31:36.000 Just a little personal.

01:31:37.000 You know, we're just kind of hanging out now.

01:31:39.000 Show's basically over, but now it's just you and me hanging out casually as friends do and me telling you about what's going on in my life. 1.00

01:31:48.000 These two girls from my college are now causing all this trouble where one of them is a literal prostitute, gets paid for things. 1.00

01:31:57.000 And the other one has got mental issues. 1.00

01:32:00.000 And both of them now are coming at me with all their force. 0.94

01:32:03.000 They're trying to turn me and Spencer against each other.

01:32:06.000 One of them texted Richard Spencer saying, Nick is going around telling everyone who will listen that you're blackmailing him.

01:32:12.000 And I know how you could blackmail him for real.

01:32:15.000 And trying to turn me and Spencer against each other.

01:32:19.000 They're going to apparently go into the press and tell everybody how a 15 year old was making rape jokes in my Discord server.

01:32:27.000 What a scandal.

01:32:29.000 And it just goes to show.

01:32:31.000 Behind every, behind every, everything, behind every trouble, at least so far in politics, it's always the eternal thought.

01:32:40.000 Be on the lookout.

01:32:42.000 They'll always disappoint.

01:32:43.000 You may think, oh, this one's okay.

01:32:45.000 No, this one's actually all right.

01:32:46.000 No, but she's all right.

01:32:48.000 Wrong, wrong.

01:32:50.000 Steer clear. 1.00

01:32:51.000 I understand the MGTOW people. 1.00

01:32:53.000 Look, that doesn't mean I'm MGTOW, but I get where they're coming from. 1.00

01:32:57.000 Can't have them in politics. 1.00

01:32:58.000 You just simply can't.

01:33:00.000 Nothing but trouble.

01:33:01.000 But that's, I guess, the closing words.

01:33:05.000 That's your wisdom for the end of the show.

01:33:08.000 But that's going to do it for us here tonight.

01:33:10.000 Remember to subscribe to the channel.

01:33:12.000 Give us a big thumbs up.

01:33:14.000 Leave a comment.

01:33:15.000 Click the notification bell to get notified every time we go live so you can never miss a moment of America First.

01:33:22.000 Subscribe on all the other different platforms Twitch, Facebook, Periscope, Twitter, all the rest.

01:33:27.000 Instagram.

01:33:28.000 I have an Instagram page.

01:33:29.000 Go follow me there.

01:33:31.000 Somebody in my high school was like, Oh, you have less than this many followers.

01:33:36.000 Like, oh, I can't even be associated with you. 1.00

01:33:38.000 We have to kill those people. 1.00

01:33:40.000 We have to put their heads on pikes, basically, metaphorically, by proving them wrong. 1.00

01:33:46.000 So go check us out on Instagram.

01:33:49.000 I have a Wikipedia page too now.

01:33:50.000 I checked this out today.

01:33:51.000 It was in dispute for a while.

01:33:53.000 It was almost insulting.

01:33:54.000 People are like, you have a Wikipedia page.

01:33:56.000 I go and look at it, and on the top, it's like, this may not meet our guidelines of, what is it? Prominence, where it's like this person's not famous enough to have a Wikipedia page, it really hurt my ego.

01:34:07.000 I was like, ouch!

01:34:10.000 You know, it's like this person may not even be cool enough to have a page, but now that's all gone, it's there.

01:34:16.000 You know, they say some nasty things, but hey, I'm on Wikipedia.

01:34:21.000 That's goals.

01:34:22.000 But that's going to do it for us tonight.

01:34:24.000 Remember to subscribe and all the rest.

01:34:26.000 We're on the air Monday through Friday, 7 p.m. Central, 8 p.m. Eastern Standard Time.

01:34:31.000 I'm Nicholas J. Fuentes.

01:34:32.000 This is America First.

01:34:35.000 Fist pump, as always.

01:34:37.000 Thanks for watching another great show with the great guests.

01:34:40.000 You say bring guests, and then you don't watch.

01:34:42.000 So, well, I don't know.

01:34:44.000 You people, you can't be pleased.

01:34:47.000 There's no pleasing you, but that's all right.

01:34:49.000 Thanks for watching.

01:34:50.000 Thanks to the Super Chatters, the Streamlabs donors, the Bit people on Twitch, and the Rainbow Coin people on Periscope, whatever the currency they use there.

01:35:01.000 And thanks to everybody who watches, everybody who shares the show, and all the rest.

01:35:05.000 We'll see you tomorrow.

01:35:06.000 And Friday, we'll be doing a call in show.

01:35:09.000 Tomorrow, I'll be on Red Elephants at this time debating Arthur Schopper about Israel.

01:35:15.000 So a big week still ahead.

01:35:17.000 We'll see you tomorrow.

01:35:18.000 Have a great rest of your evening.

01:35:26.000 Americanism, not globalism, will be our credo.

01:35:33.000 It's going to be only America first.

01:35:38.000 America first. 0.99

01:35:42.000 The American people will come first once again.

01:35:54.000 With respect.

America First - Nicholas J. Fuentes - May 02, 2018

How to Retake the GOP feat. Alex | America First Ep. 156

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