America First - Nicholas J. Fuentes - Jacob Wohl Debate on Israel | America First Ep. 86

00:00:06.000 Good evening, everybody.

00:00:07.000 You are watching America First.

00:00:09.000 My name is Nicholas J. Fuentes, and we have a great show for you tonight.

00:00:13.000 We have a very special guest with us for an exciting debate about American policy towards Israel.

00:00:19.000 We've done it before with Will Chamberlain, but we're doing it again in light of recent developments.

00:00:24.000 Jacob Wool, welcome to the show.

00:00:25.000 We're happy to have you here.

00:00:27.000 How are you doing tonight?

00:00:29.000 How about you?

00:00:29.000 Doing well, Nick.

00:00:30.000 I'm doing well.

00:00:31.000 I could be better.

00:00:32.000 You know, things have been going on over the weekend, but that's all right.

00:00:34.000 I'm here with you tonight, and we are excited to.

00:00:37.000 To have this discussion.

00:00:38.000 Now, I know you are a proud Zionist.

00:00:40.000 I know you are Jewish and you're a very strong supporter of Israel.

00:00:45.000 And we got into a little bit of a debate on Twitter about the merits of America's support for Zionism and more broadly for Israel as a state.

00:00:53.000 And I was wondering do you want to go first or would you like me to go first?

00:00:57.000 I'll give you the courtesy because you're my guest on this subject.

00:01:01.000 Well, Nick, I think you did a pretty good job of laying out at least the slogans or labels behind my position.

00:01:09.000 I'm actually unclear about what your general.

00:01:11.000 Foreign policy thesis is when it comes to Israel.

00:01:14.000 So I think it would make sense for you, especially for my viewers, but for yours as well, to hear you lay out your North Star, if you will, with regard to Israel policy.

00:01:24.000 Sure.

00:01:24.000 Well, I mean, the title of the show is America First, and so that's what I believe should be the central tenet that should govern our foreign policy, all policies, but I mean, obviously, in this particular case, foreign policy and that with regard to Israel.

00:01:38.000 So my position on Israel is that the United States should treat this country. 0.95

00:01:42.000 Just like any other country, and probably a little bit less than, because of the fact that Israel has an illegal nuclear program, because of the fact that Israel continues to spy on us, they sell our military technology to foreign countries, and of course we're going to get into this, but because of those reasons and our past relationship with Israel, and really our present relationship with Israel, I believe that first we have to cut all foreign aid to Israel, and I think we ought to treat Israel pretty much like a rogue country henceforth, and that's my North Star. 0.97

00:02:12.000 And how about yourself if you could define your position? 1.00

00:02:15.000 I think I did it adequately.

00:02:17.000 My position is very much succinct with yours insofar as the label. 0.74

00:02:21.000 It is about America first.

00:02:23.000 Obviously, that is the mantra that governs our foreign policy, at least under the Trump administration. 0.93

00:02:28.000 I've been very happy to see the Trump administration's movement towards the right moral side of this battle and towards Israel and towards Zionism. 0.82

00:02:37.000 Of course, Donald Trump's son in law, Jared Kushner, being a proud Zionist Jew, his grandkids being Jews. 0.90

00:02:44.000 It doesn't surprise me. 0.63

00:02:45.000 He laid this out at the APAC summit during the campaign.

00:02:50.000 Now, if you look at U.S. Israel relations from an America First standpoint, our foreign aid to Israel, which averages out at about $3 billion a year, looks like just about the best deal in town.

00:03:04.000 So we give $3 billion a year to Israel.

00:03:06.000 What do they do with the money?

00:03:07.000 Well, 90% of it goes into military.

00:03:10.000 It goes towards military equipment, military supplies, the salaries of their soldiers in the IDF and IAF, as well as their intelligence capabilities.

00:03:21.000 Now, where does that money really go?

00:03:22.000 Where is it spent?

00:03:24.000 As much as 75% of it, according to most estimates and most generally accepted numbers, are spent right here inside the United States.

00:03:31.000 So, if we just forget about the moral arguments of this for a second, and we're going to get into those as well, but if we look at this from a money standpoint, the money that goes from the United States' coffers to Israel is essentially a subsidy to United States jobs, to the economy, to our own GDP.

00:03:50.000 So, sure, it might get cycled through Israel, and critics like you would probably call it.

00:03:54.000 The fortification of the evil military industrial complex.

00:03:58.000 But at the end of the day, it's a high paying job for an engineer that works at Boeing.

00:04:02.000 It's a high paying job for an engineer that works at Raytheon.

00:04:06.000 And at the end of the day, you cut that aid, those jobs are going away. 0.52

00:04:09.000 So I think if you look at this from an America first standpoint, the United States' policy towards Israel that's been longstanding makes a whole lot of sense.

00:04:17.000 And Trump's basic exaggeration of that policy and even moving more towards Israel and away from the Arab nations in terms of the ideological debate in the Middle East makes a ton of sense.

00:04:29.000 Okay, well, let's start with the subsidy argument.

00:04:34.000 And this is one that I hear a lot from people that defend foreign aid to Israel, which is that a great deal of the foreign aid that's given to Israel, of course, is spent on American, the American Defense Department is spent on American defense contractors because there is, there obviously are earmarks in the foreign aid that we give them that they must spend a certain percentage on our military industrial complex, as you pointed out.

00:04:58.000 Now, I would ask you, though, If we give $3.8 billion a year to Israel and 90% of that goes towards military and 75% of that, 90%, goes towards our defense industry, don't you think if the objective of foreign aid or this $3.8 billion was to subsidize the Defense Department or the defense industry, couldn't we just give 100% of that money to the defense industry?

00:05:23.000 I would be more than happy to stop giving Israel $3.8 billion a year so that 100% could go to the defense industry.

00:05:31.000 I mean, do you see the point there?

00:05:32.000 If you're trying to argue that the $3.8 billion.

00:05:35.000 I actually don't see the point at all.

00:05:36.000 It makes zero sense.

00:05:37.000 Why is that?

00:05:38.000 The fact that the money goes back into the Defense Department is a nice bonus.

00:05:43.000 That's not the main purpose of our foreign aid to Israel, nor is it the main purpose of our foreign aid to anywhere.

00:05:48.000 That's like saying, well, we give foreign aid to Pakistan, and Pakistan has a nuclear program. 0.76

00:05:54.000 Shouldn't we just give it to ourselves instead of to Pakistan? 0.64

00:05:57.000 In a perfect world, you run an isolationist foreign policy, all the money gets to buildings and schools, et cetera. 0.95

00:05:57.000 Sure. 0.95

00:06:02.000 But that's not the way that foreign policy works.

00:06:05.000 You give foreign aid to countries.

00:06:07.000 That way, you can exact your will over them.

00:06:09.000 That way, you have.

00:06:10.000 We just saw that with Pakistan last week when Trump declared that he would be cutting money to Pakistan and cutting military cooperation.

00:06:17.000 So, while I see it as a bonus that it goes to subsidizing American jobs, it's not the only reason that it does that.

00:06:22.000 And like all foreign aid, it gives us some skin in the game and gives us some ability to exact our will.

00:06:28.000 Ah, okay.

00:06:30.000 So, on the question of the defense industry, you're saying that that's just a nice bonus.

00:06:34.000 That's not really a primary reason or even a real reason.

00:06:38.000 That's just something on the side, which makes it.

00:06:40.000 Maybe a better deal than it otherwise would if it was just all going into Israel.

00:06:44.000 Okay.

00:06:44.000 For instance, if all of the money were going to China, then it would probably be a bad deal.

00:06:50.000 Well, let's focus on this question we're giving money to Israel, and you say that the way that we use foreign aid, it's a nice bonus that it subsidizes our defense industry.

00:07:00.000 We could just give it to the defense industry, but that's just a nice side part of it.

00:07:04.000 But you say that foreign aid in general to Pakistan or to Israel or to any country.

00:07:11.000 Is good because it allows us to exercise our will over other countries.

00:07:15.000 We get to purchase influence in other countries through the foreign aid.

00:07:18.000 Now, I would ask you if Israel receives $3.8 billion per year from the United States, they've been the largest recipient of U.S. foreign aid since 1978.

00:07:28.000 So this is a long time.

00:07:30.000 And yet they have.

00:07:31.000 Wait, wait, please, please, please let me finish my point.

00:07:34.000 I'll let you finish.

00:07:35.000 Please let me finish my point.

00:07:37.000 I'll let you finish. 0.99

00:07:38.000 Israel has not. 0.95

00:07:39.000 Excuse me. 0.98

00:07:41.000 We're going to have to have a polite debate.

00:07:43.000 We're going to have to have a play.

00:07:44.000 Listen, if you have a problem with my statistic, look at the numbers.

00:07:48.000 If you have a problem with the statistic, you can address it after I finish my point.

00:07:52.000 We're not going to be able to do this if you keep interrupting me.

00:07:55.000 We're not going to be able to do this.

00:07:56.000 Go on.

00:07:57.000 Okay.

00:07:58.000 So now $3.8 billion a year in foreign aid to Israel, and you say, and they are the largest recipient of foreign aid since 1978, and you say that this buys us influence with Israel.

00:08:07.000 Now, I would ask you if we're giving them all this money, and in exchange, they're conducting the third most aggressive spying operation on American soil in the world out of all other countries, only behind Russia and China. 0.50

00:08:20.000 In the meanwhile, they're stealing our uranium, they're stealing our nuclear weapons technology, they're selling our military technology to China. 0.89

00:08:28.000 Every U.S. president since 1967 has opposed the construction of illegal settlements in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, and they do it anyway. 0.84

00:08:36.000 I would ask you, what exactly is the influence that the United States lords over Israel? 0.98

00:08:41.000 It seems more to me like Israel lords influence over us and not the other way around.

00:08:46.000 It seems like the tail's wagging the dog. 0.63

00:08:48.000 But let me ask you if you can explain how us giving them $3.8 billion in exchange, they spy on us, they steal our technology, they sell our technology to others, they influence our politicians, and so on and so forth.

00:09:00.000 How that's allowing us to exercise our will over them, and what in what case has that happened?

00:09:05.000 Well, I don't know what nuclear technology they've stolen.

00:09:08.000 Nuclear technology is well known.

00:09:09.000 You can download a PDF manual on how to build a nuclear reactor online.

00:09:13.000 So, in the 1960s, Israel has stolen our nuclear technology is entirely debunked and entirely false.

00:09:20.000 Also, Israel's not the number one recipient of foreign aid for many years. 0.56

00:09:24.000 Afghanistan has been the top recipient of foreign aid, and what do we get from them? 0.87

00:09:27.000 We get heroin, so we get heroin and Islamic terrorism. 0.95

00:09:31.000 That's a great deal, apparently, according to you. 0.99

00:09:33.000 No, I believe we should cut foreign aid to all countries, but particularly Israel. 0.82

00:09:37.000 So, how are we exacting our will over Israel? 0.62

00:09:39.000 The fundamental question.

00:09:40.000 And it's common among Israel critics like yourself to say that the tail's wagging the dog, to say that Israel, a country with a GDP of $300 billion, is somehow controlling the United States, who has a GDP of $18 trillion.

00:09:54.000 Any economist, anybody with half a brain when it comes to foreign policy, would point that kind of idea out as entirely. 0.94

00:10:03.000 It's just ridiculous. 0.97

00:10:04.000 The tail doesn't wag the dog. 0.82

00:10:06.000 You have lobbyists that represent Israel that certainly have some sway on Capitol Hill and certainly have some sway in the country, as they should, as other countries do as well.

00:10:14.000 But this idea that Israel controls us, that there's some kind of Zionist conspiracy running United States foreign policy, is entirely insane.

00:10:23.000 I think you're strawmaning me a little bit.

00:10:25.000 That's not the question I asked. 0.78

00:10:27.000 And in terms of how we engage in our will, how we place our will over Israel, I mean, it's very simple, okay? 0.92

00:10:34.000 You talk about intelligence, you talk about spying, right?

00:10:37.000 The United States cooperates with the Mossad on a vast majority of operations.

00:10:41.000 We have a great relationship between the CIA and the Mossad.

00:10:46.000 During 18 years, for instance, we sent them $18 billion.

00:10:50.000 In that same time period, we received $50 to $60 billion worth of intelligence.

00:10:55.000 They are our ally.

00:10:57.000 We share the same enemies.

00:11:00.000 It's a very simple equation. 1.00

00:11:01.000 You have the middle, which is filled with Islamofascists, and a few. 0.99

00:11:05.000 In Israel. 0.99

00:11:06.000 That's a pretty basic equation.

00:11:08.000 Well, it's funny to me because I asked you a very simple question, which was you said that, you know, in exchange for the foreign aid money, and we can get into the particulars of which numbers are accurate and how much is actually given, but we give a great deal of money in foreign aid to Israel, and you say that that is good because we get to exert influence over another country, and that is good. 0.71

00:11:27.000 That puts America first. 0.61

00:11:28.000 We get to achieve our interests.

00:11:30.000 And I asked you very simply, in which cases does that give us influence in Israel?

00:11:35.000 And you told me.

00:11:37.000 You told me.

00:11:38.000 Okay.

00:11:38.000 Listen, my friend, we got to let each other finish.

00:11:41.000 I let you finish.

00:11:42.000 I disagreed with much of what you just said, but I let you finish.

00:11:44.000 Can we agree to allow each other to finish our points?

00:11:48.000 I promise I'll be brief.

00:11:49.000 So now you give me an exchange.

00:11:51.000 You say that, well, we give a lot of money to the Mossad, and the Mossad gives us intelligence.

00:11:56.000 Well, I mean, isn't that more of a transaction?

00:11:58.000 I'm just asking if you're, and this is your claim.

00:12:01.000 I'm not saying there's a Zionist conspiracy theory.

00:12:04.000 I'm saying that you are saying that in exchange for the money we're getting, we're getting influence.

00:12:08.000 And where is an example of that influence?

00:12:10.000 When has Israel.

00:12:11.000 The port of Haifa.

00:12:11.000 Yeah, go ahead.

00:12:14.000 It's a very nice port in the Middle East, in the north of Israel, close to Lebanon, which is home to Hezbollah and many Islamofascist groups, a lot of Iranian influence in the region.

00:12:25.000 The port of Haifa is a port where U.S. ships can dock.

00:12:30.000 The reason that we can dock there is because we provide foreign aid to Israel.

00:12:33.000 That is a strategic advantage among many that we have in Israel.

00:12:37.000 When a U.S. plane is low on fuel, where can they dependently land, reliably land in the Middle East?

00:12:45.000 Israel, of course, usually in the south and the air bases in the Negev desert.

00:12:49.000 This is well known.

00:12:50.000 There are many, many strategic assets that we get in exchange for the very small sum when you look at the overall spending that takes place in this country.

00:13:01.000 Of $3 billion a year.

00:13:03.000 In fact, the multiple that we make on our investment in Israel is probably in the orders of magnitude.

00:13:10.000 So you say that because we give foreign aid to Israel, they allow us to use their ports, their facilities, but Germany allows us to use their ports and facilities and bases and everything else.

00:13:23.000 I mean, all kinds of countries around the world, and no countries get $3.8 billion per year.

00:13:28.000 So how can you defend that?

00:13:30.000 Yeah, go ahead.

00:13:30.000 Germany.

00:13:31.000 Germany.

00:13:32.000 Entirely different case. 0.93

00:13:33.000 I mean, we invaded Germany. 0.83

00:13:34.000 We bombed Germany to smithereens during World War II, and we never left. 0.81

00:13:39.000 The reason that we are in Germany is because it keeps Germany from acquiring nuclear weapons and building out a large military. 0.73

00:13:45.000 There's soft and hard power in the world.

00:13:47.000 And in Israel, luckily, we use soft power.

00:13:49.000 We give them money and we gain influence.

00:13:51.000 What about South Korea then?

00:13:53.000 What about South Korea?

00:13:54.000 We have troops stationed in South Korea.

00:13:55.000 We have bases.

00:13:56.000 I mean, they let us use their ports, and we don't give.

00:13:59.000 I mean, we never invaded South Korea like we did Germany or Japan, and we don't give the same kind of aid.

00:14:05.000 There's no free lunch, Nick.

00:14:06.000 There's always a transaction that takes place. 0.56

00:14:08.000 Well, it seems like with South Korea, it's kind of a free lunch, right?

00:14:11.000 I mean, we give some money, but we don't give $3.8 billion a year.

00:14:15.000 We give many more dollars a year in technology to South Korea jets and missiles.

00:14:21.000 Do you have a number on that?

00:14:22.000 Can you cite that?

00:14:23.000 That missile defense.

00:14:24.000 It's somewhere in the range of 25 to 30 billion.

00:14:26.000 According to whom?

00:14:28.000 According to the Rand Institute, according to the Brookings Institute, according to every mainstream defense think tank in the world.

00:14:36.000 If those are our assets, right?

00:14:38.000 If those are our assets, does that Count as the same as giving foreign aid?

00:14:41.000 If you're giving foreign aid money, that's for Israel to spend.

00:14:44.000 But if we have our planes and troops and everything else, those are still our assets.

00:14:47.000 That's not the same as foreign aid.

00:14:49.000 If it's somebody else, then they're their assets, right?

00:14:49.000 Do you think that's true?

00:14:51.000 If I give you my sandwich, it's your sandwich now.

00:14:54.000 Which is a.

00:14:54.000 No, but if we have them in South Korea, that doesn't make them that they belong to South Korea, does it?

00:15:01.000 If we furnish South Korea with an Air Force at a deeply discounted price, that makes it their Air Force, not ours.

00:15:08.000 All right.

00:15:08.000 Well, so on the foreign aid question, you're saying that.

00:15:11.000 I'm still not buying this proposition that this is buying influence for Israel.

00:15:15.000 Maybe they allow us to use our ports, which I think is dubious.

00:15:17.000 I think they would still allow us to use our ports and our bases without foreign aid.

00:15:21.000 I think if they were truly a special friend, it was a special alliance.

00:15:25.000 I think they would do that because we're protecting them, because we have sort of a defense alliance, not because we're giving them money for it.

00:15:31.000 I mean, so that's number one.

00:15:32.000 But where is the political influence? 0.55

00:15:34.000 If you have every president since 1967 say to Israel no illegal settlements, and they continue to expand them, if we have every president since 1967 that has to keep Israel's illegal nuclear program under wraps.

00:15:48.000 And Israel is doing all kinds of things against our interests.

00:15:51.000 They're spying on us.

00:15:52.000 I mean, how is that buying us influence if they're spying on American soil more aggressively than every other country in the world besides Russia and China, our major geopolitical adversaries or rivals?

00:16:05.000 I mean, how can you seriously tell me that that is buying any kind of influence if the only things that we tell them they go against?

00:16:11.000 And they're pretty much outright hostile to us most of the time.

00:16:14.000 They go against our policy in terms of a two state solution, right?

00:16:14.000 Right.

00:16:18.000 Except, wait a second, they don't.

00:16:21.000 Israel has continuously been open to a two state solution.

00:16:25.000 On six separate occasions, they've come to the table and been open to a two state solution.

00:16:30.000 And every single time, from 1937 to just this year, in fact, just today, Mahmoud Abbas said that he hopes that President Trump's house burns to the ground. 0.54

00:16:39.000 Every single time, the Palestinians have rejected peace.

00:16:43.000 The U.S. has rallied for a two state solution, just as the United Nations did before we did, and just as the British did with the Peel Commission before the United Nations existed. 0.74

00:16:52.000 And every single time, the Israelis have been open to it, and every single time, The Palestinians have killed the deal. 0.98

00:16:58.000 There's a very good example. 0.99

00:16:59.000 In fact, it's not in Israel's interest to pursue a two state solution.

00:17:02.000 It's a big waste of time from their perspective and money and political capital. 0.89

00:17:06.000 And yet they do it because we tell them to.

00:17:09.000 And what happens every time? 1.00

00:17:10.000 The Palestinians reject it.

00:17:11.000 Israel's pursuit of a two state solution is all the proof in the world that you need that we have political throw within the country.

00:17:20.000 No, but I think the question was particularly on the settlements.

00:17:23.000 I mean, do you think the settlements help or hurt the peace process?

00:17:26.000 I think the settlements help the peace process. 0.98

00:17:28.000 The peace process because they, yeah, because it's Israeli land. 0.52

00:17:32.000 The Palestinians and the Arab League fought a war of conquest against Israel.

00:17:37.000 They lost.

00:17:37.000 Israel took territory.

00:17:39.000 And by the way, nobody had any issue with occupation of quote unquote Palestinian territories when it was the Egyptians and the Jordanians ruling them.

00:17:47.000 And by the way, Palestinians enjoy many more civil rights under Israeli rule than they ever enjoyed under Jordanian and Egyptian rule.

00:17:55.000 This issue of singling out Israel, let's just get down to meet and be.

00:17:59.000 Here we go. 0.55

00:18:00.000 This issue of singling out Israel.

00:18:02.000 Okay?

00:18:02.000 It comes down to one thing and one thing only.

00:18:05.000 And we all know this simple, unabashed Jew hatred. 0.98

00:18:10.000 We all know it. 0.91

00:18:12.000 You know, nobody has a problem with the Jordanians and the Gazans, or the Jordanians and the Egyptians occupying quote unquote Palestinian territory, building settlements in Palestinian territory. 0.70

00:18:24.000 But all of a sudden, when it's Israel, after, of course, the war of conquest is lost against the Jewish people, everybody has a problem with it.

00:18:33.000 But would you like to know why? 0.59

00:18:34.000 Would you like to know why we single out Israel?

00:18:36.000 Because they're the number one recipient of foreign aid in the world since 1978.

00:18:40.000 If they're the number one recipient of foreign aid, then they deserve more scrutiny.

00:18:44.000 They deserve the most scrutiny.

00:18:45.000 I wouldn't have a problem with anything that goes on in the Middle East. 0.89

00:18:49.000 I believe that Israel should have a right to pursue a one state solution, but just not on our dime. 0.85

00:18:55.000 And I believe that Jordan, I don't really care what happens with Jordan and if they occupy Palestine.

00:18:59.000 I don't care if Egypt occupies Palestine so long as they're not doing it on our dime and under the guise of being under our influence.

00:19:06.000 It would be fine and well. 0.89

00:19:08.000 If Israel was doing what it was doing and conducting its own affairs, if they weren't doing it while taking with both hands. 0.84

00:19:13.000 But the fact of the matter is that since 1967, okay, well, you can say that, but since 1967, every U.S. president, Republican and Democrat, has opposed the construction of illegal settlements in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. 0.84

00:19:27.000 And yet Israel does it anyway. 0.71

00:19:29.000 And you still haven't addressed the question of the fact that they conduct the most aggressive spying operation on our soil out of any other country except for our two adversaries. 0.51

00:19:37.000 Does that sound like an ally?

00:19:39.000 Neither you nor I know anything that's not public about the Mossad spying operation. 0.89

00:19:44.000 So to pretend like we do is ridiculous.

00:19:46.000 I'm not pretending.

00:19:47.000 Would you like me to cite my sources?

00:19:49.000 We're not privy to classified information. 0.94

00:19:51.000 So, for either of us to discuss what Assad does is ridiculous. 0.79

00:19:54.000 No, you're not. 0.95

00:19:54.000 Here we go. 0.95

00:19:55.000 I can give you some evidence.

00:19:56.000 Would you like some evidence?

00:19:58.000 Would you like some evidence?

00:20:00.000 Do you have a security clearance?

00:20:01.000 I don't, but I have a lot of evidence that Israel is conducting the spying operation. 0.89

00:20:05.000 Are you denying that they do this?

00:20:06.000 Because I have a lot of qualified people who would disagree with you.

00:20:10.000 It's right here in front of me.

00:20:10.000 I do.

00:20:11.000 Have you heard of a man by the name of Jonathan Pollard?

00:20:15.000 No.

00:20:15.000 Here's what I do know.

00:20:16.000 That was an Israeli double agent.

00:20:18.000 This is an old story from 20 years ago that everybody likes to recycle. 0.92

00:20:21.000 Of course.

00:20:22.000 Well, we have more.

00:20:22.000 I have a lot more where that came from.

00:20:24.000 Here's the reality.

00:20:25.000 No other nation besides Israel has voted with the United States in UN resolutions with consistency.

00:20:31.000 Israel has voted with the United States 94% of the time.

00:20:34.000 Who cares? 0.72

00:20:36.000 No other country has done that.

00:20:37.000 Who cares?

00:20:37.000 Why is that important?

00:20:38.000 Why is it important? 1.00

00:20:40.000 You said it's okay, and I don't care what happens in the Middle East.

00:20:43.000 Just thought on my dime. 0.63

00:20:45.000 So let's understand this.

00:20:46.000 You're okay with it happening, but you're not okay with it happening in the presence of $3 billion, as if that has some market effect on the entire situation.

00:20:56.000 When you look at it, Like I said, Israel has a GDP north of $300 billion.

00:21:00.000 We provide $3 billion a year.

00:21:02.000 Yep.

00:21:02.000 Okay, that's a very small amount.

00:21:04.000 So then why do they need it?

00:21:06.000 So then why do they need it?

00:21:07.000 If there's money on the table, you take it off the table?

00:21:10.000 Oh, yeah, then let's take it off the table.

00:21:11.000 Let's take it off the table.

00:21:13.000 Look, if they don't need it, okay, if we're holding them back from pursuing a one state solution, let's take away the money.

00:21:19.000 I am in agreement with you.

00:21:20.000 Let's take away the money.

00:21:22.000 No, because who's on our side in the Middle East, Nick? 0.74

00:21:24.000 Oh, is Israel on our side, even though they spy on us, they steal our nuclear technology, they sell our technology to China? 0.81

00:21:30.000 All of this stuff is. 0.67

00:21:32.000 I mean, we could cycle in debunked conspiracy theories all night.

00:21:36.000 Well, let's do it.

00:21:37.000 I'm talking.

00:21:38.000 No, I'm not going to do it.

00:21:39.000 I'm going to talk about real meat and potatoes, fundamental foreign policy.

00:21:42.000 What's the meat and potatoes, my friend? 0.89

00:21:44.000 Tell me what strategic benefit Israel gives to us, and I'll rebut it.

00:21:47.000 Israel is the only country in the Middle East that consistently sides with us in conflicts, that consistently votes with us, that provides us with military bases, that provides us with deep water ports. 0.58

00:21:58.000 The benefit that we receive from Israel.

00:22:00.000 We would have to pay a country like Panama to receive billions more dollars.

00:22:04.000 We built the Panama Canal.

00:22:05.000 We gave it back to Panama.

00:22:08.000 Under your kind of bizarre isolationist view of policy, we should go and fight a war of conquest with Panama and take back the Panama Canal.

00:22:17.000 Did I say that?

00:22:18.000 Wow.

00:22:19.000 Are you a mind reader?

00:22:20.000 I am a mind reader.

00:22:21.000 That's powerful.

00:22:22.000 Well, here, I mean, if you're saying that Israel has sided with us in major conflicts, this is something we can debate.

00:22:27.000 If you're going to throw around epithets like you're an isolationist and you're an anti Semite, I mean, I can't really argue those because that's not really substantive.

00:22:34.000 But if you're going to say that Israel, the benefit that we accrue from giving them aid is that strategically they help us in conflicts, strategically their ports help us, I would refer you to John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt, two of the foremost thinkers on foreign policy.

00:22:49.000 And they cite this in the Israel lobby, where they say that the Eastern Mediterranean region, where Israel is situated, is simply not strategically important.

00:22:58.000 According to a former Pentagon official, this is from a book called Send Guns and Money.

00:23:03.000 Quote, when we were drafting contingency plans for the Middle East in the 1980s, we found that the Israelis were of little value to us in 95% of cases.

00:23:12.000 Kissinger wrote, quote, Israeli strength does not prevent the spread of communism in the Arab world.

00:23:17.000 And this was obviously specifically with regards to the 1980s.

00:23:20.000 The fact of the matter is that the Eastern Mediterranean is just not a strategically important region.

00:23:25.000 I mean, they cannot project power in the Persian Gulf, they cannot project power in the Arabian Peninsula. 0.82

00:23:31.000 So the strategic benefit that a lot of Zionists talk about. 0.80

00:23:36.000 Is really just outsized.

00:23:37.000 I would challenge anybody to look at a map of Israel and tell us how Israel would be strategically important in a conflict in, say, Iran or in Pakistan or in the Persian Gulf.

00:23:46.000 I mean, they simply wouldn't because of geography.

00:23:50.000 I think we can go back and forth.

00:23:52.000 Neither of us are military tacticians.

00:23:54.000 You just cited some anecdotal evidence.

00:23:56.000 I have a lot more.

00:23:57.000 I have a lot more.

00:23:57.000 Geography from, I guess, very respectable sources.

00:24:01.000 I'm not aware of either of those two.

00:24:02.000 But since we're going to cite anecdotal evidence, I would cite something written by Major General George Keegan Jr., who said between 1974 and 1990, Israel received $18.3 billion in U.S. military grants.

00:24:15.000 During the same period, Israel provided the U.S. with $50 to $80 billion.

00:24:19.000 And military intelligence, research, development savings, and updates on Soviet weapon systems captured and transferred to the U.S.

00:24:25.000 So, forget about everything else, that amount of money produced a 6 to 7x return on capital alone.

00:24:33.000 For that reason alone, it was a good buy.

00:24:36.000 I mean, this is a money question, right?

00:24:38.000 This is an accounting question.

00:24:40.000 We have $3 billion to spare.

00:24:42.000 The U.S. spends trillions of dollars a year in different places around the world.

00:24:45.000 And the idea that Israel should be singled out for, like you said, being a rogue nation.

00:24:51.000 When you have countries like Iran, countries like North Korea, countries like Pakistan, countries like Iraq, countries like Afghanistan that supply the world with heroin, it's just an insane notion.

00:25:01.000 Well, on the subject of the intelligence, it's funny you bring that up.

00:25:04.000 I don't think anybody denies that they give us intelligence.

00:25:07.000 I just think it's bad intelligence and it's not really productive. 0.51

00:25:11.000 Here's a quote from a former CIA official who said Israeli intelligence, training, and technology was useful and appreciated, but never essential to the development of American military power or to its ultimate triumph over the Soviet Union.

00:25:24.000 He goes on, I saw this political intelligence and it was lousy, laughably bad, gossip stuff mostly.

00:25:29.000 Israel provides the United States with faulty or misleading intelligence on several occasions in order to encourage the U.S. to take actions that Israel wanted.

00:25:38.000 So, I mean, you could say that Israel gives us intelligence.

00:25:41.000 I don't think I'd necessarily agree with you or disagree with you, rather. 0.84

00:25:44.000 But it's bad intelligence, it's misleading intelligence, it's self serving.

00:25:48.000 And on the question of.

00:25:49.000 Well, you can rebut that.

00:25:50.000 50 to 80 billion, I don't think it's worth nothing then.

00:25:53.000 It's worth 50 to 80 billion.

00:25:54.000 That's a net positive.

00:25:55.000 I mean, you just heard.

00:25:56.000 I mean, whether or not it has value in the sense that it's worth money, if it's, in the words of the CIA, laughably bad, not essential, gossip stuff.

00:26:07.000 I think that Assad has a very good reputation.

00:26:09.000 Well, I mean, can you give me one concrete example of when Israeli intelligence has helped us?

00:26:14.000 I mean, I know the stuff about the Soviet Union weapons captures during the 67 war, but I mean, that stuff was really not consequential in the grand scheme of things.

00:26:22.000 Can you give me one piece of intelligence?

00:26:24.000 Well, I think it's very consequential to know.

00:26:27.000 For instance, how a MiG fighter jet works or how a Russian tank works when the world is worried about going to war with the Soviet Union.

00:26:34.000 I think that's consequential.

00:26:36.000 That's really a small point in the grand scheme of things.

00:26:36.000 You could disagree.

00:26:40.000 I think that the intelligence share alone that we get from Israel for the $3 billion is worth a lot of money.

00:26:45.000 Like I said, you're not privy to classified information.

00:26:47.000 Neither am I.

00:26:48.000 It's hard for either of us to sit here and say, in particular cases, what did the intelligence do?

00:26:53.000 What were the methods and sources?

00:26:55.000 And how did it help us?

00:26:56.000 Neither of us are in a position to judge that.

00:26:58.000 However, I think that.

00:27:00.000 There's one of two possibilities here that we're narrowing it down to.

00:27:03.000 Either this is a grand inside deal to purchase intelligence that's no good, or it's a bunch of smart people in a bunch of smart places buying this intelligence because it's worth something.

00:27:16.000 So either the entire CIA is full of evil goons that just want to furnish Israel with money, which doesn't seem to make a lot of sense because they don't really put skin in the game, or it's good stuff.

00:27:27.000 Well, I mean, in their own words, they said it was laughably bad.

00:27:30.000 And I think a good reason you said that there's no reason. 0.51

00:27:33.000 You said there's no reason why they would funnel money to Israel, but I think I'd refer you to AIPAC, which two thirds of congressmen attend every year for lobbying by the Israelis.

00:27:45.000 It's a great organization.

00:27:46.000 What's that?

00:27:47.000 It was a great organization.

00:27:48.000 I would remind people to donate tonight if they have a chance.

00:27:51.000 Okay, but I mean, you understand that two thirds of congressmen attend this conference every year.

00:27:56.000 A lot of campaigns are make or break based on APAC money.

00:27:59.000 And you say you can't think of a reason why the CIA would funnel money to Israel for intelligence they don't need in their own words?

00:28:05.000 Well, I mean, I think it's kind of looking at you right in the face when you have the number one lobbying organization in America is for a foreign nation, is for APAC.

00:28:14.000 I mean, don't you think that plays a part?

00:28:16.000 Probably not, but I think anybody else could see if they're not prejudiced.

00:28:19.000 I actually don't think it does.

00:28:21.000 I don't think that APAC is some kind of Craigslist for spy manuals.

00:28:27.000 I just don't have any evidence to substantiate that at all.

00:28:31.000 All right.

00:28:31.000 Well, I think people can decide for themselves on that one.

00:28:36.000 And you brought up Iran and North Korea that are rogue states.

00:28:39.000 Why do you call Iran and North Korea rogue states?

00:28:41.000 Is it because of their nuclear program?

00:28:45.000 Iran and North Korea have a nuclear program that they, in their own words, say is to wipe the U.S. and our allies off the map.

00:28:51.000 Hmm. 0.75

00:28:54.000 And that's why they're rogue countries, because of what they say they intend to do with their nuclear programs.

00:29:00.000 So if North Korea and Iran didn't say that about the United States, you'd be okay with Kim Jong un having a nuclear weapon, a nuclear arsenal?

00:29:08.000 If North Korea were a rational country, I think that's a decision for more qualified policymakers to make than myself, but I think that that would be something that's open.

00:29:16.000 I mean, France has nuclear weapons, Pakistan has nuclear weapons, Pakistan is far from a friendly actor in the Middle East with their funding of the Taliban and the Haqqani network, and yet they have nuclear weapons. 0.58

00:29:28.000 Well, you know, Israel is supportive of ISIS and they have nuclear weapons.

00:29:32.000 I mean, isn't that kind of similar? 0.76

00:29:33.000 Here we go.

00:29:34.000 This is something that's just unsubstantiated.

00:29:36.000 I can substantiate it.

00:29:37.000 There's plenty, listen, there's plenty of Russian propaganda reports from RT that claim that Israel and the United States are the founders of ISIS and started ISIS and fund ISIS on a daily basis.

00:29:47.000 These are widely regarded as misinformation, and there's no substantiated credible information from non Russian sources, basically.

00:29:56.000 I disagree.

00:29:57.000 I have sources here. 0.90

00:29:59.000 Founders of ISIS. 0.96

00:30:00.000 I have a source.

00:30:01.000 Would you trust Moshi Yaloun, the defense minister of Israel?

00:30:05.000 Would that be a good source?

00:30:07.000 I don't think it would.

00:30:08.000 I don't know what context you're referring to.

00:30:10.000 Well, the defense minister of Israel said that if Syria were to collapse, he would rather have ISIS in control of the country than a proxy of Iran.

00:30:18.000 Israel's military intelligence chief said in June of 2016 that Israel does not want to see ISIS defeated in Syria.

00:30:24.000 That's pretty troubling, no?

00:30:26.000 I don't think that's really troubling at all.

00:30:28.000 You have a battle of Sunni fighters in the region.

00:30:31.000 You could call them ISIS more broadly.

00:30:34.000 You have other groups as well.

00:30:36.000 And also, you have the Iranian backed Shia groups. 0.69

00:30:40.000 Obviously, Iran being the number one geopolitical threat to Israel, it makes all the sense in the world for Israel to root for the side that is opposed to Iran. 0.99

00:30:50.000 I agree with that. 0.99

00:30:51.000 I agree with that. 0.67

00:30:52.000 But it just so happens that the side that Israel takes is actually the side that harms the United States, that has conducted terrorist attacks on our soil. 0.84

00:31:00.000 So I don't dispute that it's in Israel's interest to back ISIS. 0.76

00:31:03.000 And maybe there's nothing wrong with that on the grounds of real politique or, you know, ration d'etat, but. 0.81

00:31:08.000 The assertion that Israel backs ISIS either.

00:31:10.000 Well, it's the defense minister and their military intelligence chief.

00:31:13.000 No, he said he'd rather have ISIS in charge of Syria than an Iranian.

00:31:17.000 I mean, they said they don't want to see ISIS defeated.

00:31:20.000 Is that not a tacit endorsement of ISIS?

00:31:23.000 It's not support of ISIS.

00:31:24.000 You made it sound as if there's some sort of material support coming from Israel to ISIS.

00:31:29.000 I never alleged that.

00:31:30.000 I said that Israel supports ISIS in the sense that they support the existence of ISIS as opposed to Iran or Syria.

00:31:36.000 And I. You think ISIS gets their moral support from the Jewish state? 0.70

00:31:41.000 I don't think they get their moral support, but I think that Israel has given tacit approval to ISIS in the region.

00:31:46.000 Is it on Twitter?

00:31:47.000 Is it guns?

00:31:48.000 I mean, if you're going to say that they support them, you have to specify what support they have.

00:31:51.000 Well, I did.

00:31:52.000 I mean, if their defense minister is saying that we would rather have ISIS in Syria than Iran, I mean, don't.

00:31:52.000 I just told you.

00:31:59.000 It's funny to me how, because you're prejudiced in favor of Israel, you have to jump through hoops and pretend like people didn't say things and intelligence doesn't exist.

00:32:07.000 I mean, this is from the Israeli military, from the Israeli defense ministry, that they say that they prefer ISIS.

00:32:13.000 And Spencer says he would rather have a less bad actor in control of a particular area.

00:32:19.000 Than a more bad actor.

00:32:21.000 I just don't know how that specifies that the country is in support of the less bad actor.

00:32:24.000 Well, here's why I bring that up because if they're saying that one actor is less bad, that's in diametric opposition to the United States foreign policy, which is under the Trump administration, which is that we take out ISIS first, that we would take out ISIS first before Iran, that we want ISIS eliminated and we want Assad in control of Syria, or we want the government in Damascus in control of Syria, but not ISIS.

00:32:47.000 So that's in opposition to American policy.

00:32:49.000 Happen simultaneously.

00:32:51.000 What's that?

00:32:52.000 Israel's throw has increased in the region and more broadly because the United States has backed it with more moral, material, and other support.

00:32:59.000 In fact, Israel just named their train station near the Western Wall the Trump train station.

00:33:04.000 Oh, wow.

00:33:05.000 Two, and number two, the other thing that's happened simultaneously is that ISIS has been battered into the ground.

00:33:11.000 They've lost massive swaths of land through Mosul, through Raqqa, and other parts of Syria.

00:33:16.000 So if somehow those two things were diametrically opposed, then they wouldn't both happen simultaneously by definition.

00:33:24.000 That's just simply not true.

00:33:25.000 I mean, ISIS thrived under Barack Obama and then it was defeated under Trump.

00:33:30.000 The difference was not Israel.

00:33:31.000 The difference was the administration in the White House.

00:33:34.000 I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

00:33:35.000 Are you saying because they named a train station after Trump that somehow contradicts what the defense minister said about ISIS?

00:33:43.000 Well, they wouldn't name a train station after Trump if he destroyed ISIS.

00:33:48.000 I mean, is that the argument?

00:33:49.000 It seems pretty flimsy, right?

00:33:51.000 No, the argument is if the Trump administration were as Israel first as they say they are, they would not be both.

00:33:58.000 Recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and destroying ISIS.

00:34:02.000 Those two things, as you said, would be diametrically opposed if you work within the framework that Israel is the founder of ISIS somehow.

00:34:09.000 I didn't say.

00:34:10.000 Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

00:34:11.000 I didn't say Israel is the founder of ISIS.

00:34:13.000 I never said that.

00:34:15.000 I said that Israel supports or has preference for an actor over Iran when our calculation is the reverse. 0.55

00:34:23.000 It's an actor which is less bad than the other actor.

00:34:25.000 Okay, but you're putting words in my mouth by saying that your counter argument is to an argument that I didn't make.

00:34:31.000 You're saying that why would.

00:34:33.000 Why would they name a train station after Trump if they founded ISIS and Trump destroyed ISIS?

00:34:38.000 I didn't say they founded ISIS.

00:34:40.000 I said, go ahead.

00:34:41.000 So, your argument against Israel is that somehow money goes from our pockets to ISIS's pockets via Israel?

00:34:48.000 I mean, I just.

00:34:49.000 No, that's quite the extrapolation.

00:34:52.000 I am drawing a contrast between you, who said that Pakistan has nuclear weapons and they give money to terrorists and they support the Taliban and they support the Haqqani network.

00:35:02.000 And I said, well, it's kind of interesting.

00:35:04.000 There's kind of a parallel there.

00:35:05.000 Where, if you think of it, Israel is a nuclear power, and maybe they don't give material support to ISIS.

00:35:10.000 I mean, ISIS apologized to Israel for attacking them.

00:35:13.000 I mean, that's pretty telling.

00:35:15.000 But they say that they would rather have ISIS than actors like Iran or Syria, which is opposite our policy.

00:35:20.000 I was simply drawing a contrast between what you said on Pakistan.

00:35:22.000 I don't know what's at our policy at all.

00:35:24.000 We've continuously backed Sunni rebels in Syria.

00:35:27.000 It's just not opposite our policy. 0.70

00:35:29.000 We can have debates about whether the policies are good or bad, but Israel's policy on Syria is exactly in line with.

00:35:37.000 With the US's policy.

00:35:38.000 That's simply not true.

00:35:39.000 That's simply not true.

00:35:40.000 The policy of Israel in Syria is to prevent a stable government in Damascus and to retain control of the Golan Heights.

00:35:48.000 The policy of the United States in Syria is to stabilize the region, is to shore up whatever government exists in Damascus so that we can eradicate ISIS.

00:35:57.000 The Golan Heights don't belong to Syria.

00:36:02.000 Did they not belong to Syria because there's oil there? 0.98

00:36:05.000 I was just in the Golan Heights very recently, and I can promise you one thing that is not Syria. 0.98

00:36:08.000 The border is below the Golan Heights. 1.00

00:36:11.000 There's a fence, it's very clearly marked. 0.97

00:36:13.000 On one side, you have the First World.

00:36:14.000 On one side, you have the fourth world.

00:36:16.000 It's very clear.

00:36:16.000 You look to your left, you look to your right.

00:36:19.000 It's very obvious.

00:36:20.000 And you think that has nothing to do with the oil they discovered in the Golan Heights?

00:36:24.000 That's an arbitrary line, John?

00:36:25.000 It has everything to do with a lot of things.

00:36:27.000 I mean, look, the Golan Heights are a very prominent strategic advantage because they're high and they've got a big, high plateau that overlooks a lower area.

00:36:36.000 There's tons of reasons that you would want the Golan Heights.

00:36:38.000 I'm not saying the Golan Heights were bad. 0.73

00:36:40.000 But the point then is that Israel's objective in Syria has nothing to do with stability, it has nothing to do with. 0.57

00:36:46.000 With realigning the Middle East, it has to do with securing land that they seized and in addition to destabilize the government of Damascus. 0.52

00:36:54.000 Secure land that they seized. 0.87

00:36:55.000 The land is secure.

00:36:56.000 There's no armor.

00:36:57.000 Yeah, but to.

00:36:57.000 No armor.

00:36:58.000 People who live there are actually not Israeli Jews. 1.00

00:37:01.000 They're the Druze, the Arab Druze. 0.96

00:37:03.000 Those are most of the people that live in the Golan Heights. 1.00

00:37:05.000 Secure it politically in the sense that many people recognize that or don't recognize that as legitimate. 0.98

00:37:09.000 I mean, there were calls throughout the past year saying that, well, it's basically time for the international community to recognize that the Golan Heights belongs to Israel.

00:37:17.000 So when I said secure, I understand that. 0.51

00:37:19.000 The Golan Heights is securely under the control of Israel, but in terms of the legitimacy of it, they were attempting to secure with all the chaos in Syria. 0.84

00:37:27.000 And that's their policy. 0.85

00:37:28.000 That's not our policy.

00:37:29.000 I don't think there's going to be any securing the Golan Heights from a political standpoint.

00:37:32.000 I mean, look, there's just more Arab nations than there are Israels, and they're going to vote in favor of naming the Golan Heights Arab territory any way you slice the pie. 0.80

00:37:42.000 So I don't really think politically the Golan Heights are up for grab for Jews, and I don't think that they're up for Arabs from a literal whose boots are on the ground standpoint. 0.81

00:37:50.000 All right. 0.85

00:37:50.000 Well, This has kind of gone away from the fundamental point, which was the nuclear program. 0.85

00:37:55.000 Going back to you said that Iran and North Korea.

00:37:57.000 There's no nuclear program in Israel.

00:37:59.000 There's no nuclear program in Israel?

00:38:01.000 Not officially.

00:38:02.000 Not that anybody can cite.

00:38:04.000 Of course it exists.

00:38:06.000 No, of course it doesn't exist.

00:38:08.000 Just like, of course, you know, the nuclear program exists in the U.S.

00:38:12.000 It's a conspiracy theory.

00:38:13.000 Come on.

00:38:14.000 Show me one IAEA inspector's report of a nuclear program inside Israel.

00:38:20.000 I will say there's a nuclear program inside Israel.

00:38:22.000 Because they don't allow the IAEA inspectors.

00:38:25.000 They mislead them.

00:38:27.000 Have a debate about a nuclear program that we aren't sure exists.

00:38:30.000 Oh, but this is against U.S. policy.

00:38:32.000 U.S. policy is nonproliferation.

00:38:34.000 Israel has not signed the NPT. 0.64

00:38:37.000 And it's because they're in possession of nuclear weapons and chemical weapons. 0.81

00:38:41.000 The NPT is a wonderful treaty that's really succeeded in the war. 0.93

00:38:44.000 That doesn't apply to Israel. 0.90

00:38:47.000 Right?

00:38:47.000 The NPT is worthless.

00:38:48.000 Nobody's followed the NPT.

00:38:51.000 But it's not, okay, you may think, like you just said, you may think it's a bad policy.

00:38:55.000 But American policy is that we must prevent the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction using the NPT.

00:39:03.000 Israel never signed it.

00:39:04.000 Now, and also you said that Israel doesn't have nuclear weapons.

00:39:07.000 That's interesting.

00:39:07.000 They've never signed it.

00:39:08.000 If they've never signed it, Nick, right?

00:39:09.000 We can agree under basic fiduciary legal sort of rules that if they haven't signed it, then they're not beholden to it, right?

00:39:16.000 Right.

00:39:16.000 But American policy is that everybody should sign it.

00:39:21.000 Right?

00:39:22.000 American policy is.

00:39:25.000 It's the international community's policy of nonproliferation.

00:39:28.000 No, no.

00:39:28.000 I believe it's the United States.

00:39:29.000 Well,.

00:39:30.000 You say that Israel has no nuclear program, but the former speaker of the Knesset, Abraham Berg, said that Israel has both chemical and nuclear weapons.

00:39:38.000 So, do you know something that the former speaker of the Knesset doesn't?

00:39:42.000 All I'm saying is that there's no officially recognized nuclear program in Israel.

00:39:46.000 I don't disagree with that, but there's abundant evidence that they do.

00:39:49.000 There's many conspiracy theories.

00:39:51.000 There's many people that have said a lot of different things.

00:39:53.000 I can point to 100 people that say it doesn't exist, like the Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, and you can point to people like this who say it does exist.

00:40:00.000 The bottom line is we're not sure it exists, so it doesn't make sense to have a debate based on our sources.

00:40:04.000 Okay.

00:40:05.000 Are you a double agent or something?

00:40:06.000 I mean, this is like you're towing the state lines.

00:40:09.000 I mean, this is not a secret that Israel has a nuclear program.

00:40:12.000 Nuclear program.

00:40:12.000 That's kind of disturbing.

00:40:13.000 I'm not an Israeli citizen.

00:40:14.000 I'm not an agent of the Israeli government.

00:40:17.000 And I don't have any particular incentive.

00:40:23.000 It's just facts and reason and evidence and morals.

00:40:27.000 That's all.

00:40:29.000 So you don't believe that Israel has a nuclear program, even though, I mean, in multiple Israeli documents, multiple.

00:40:36.000 Not sure if Israel has anything.

00:40:37.000 Well, what do you think about this here? 0.51

00:40:40.000 From 1965 to 1980, this is the Apollo affair.

00:40:43.000 I don't know if you've ever heard of this.

00:40:45.000 But from 1965 to 1980, the FBI investigated Zalman Shapiro, president of the Nuclear Material and Equipment Corporation, over the loss of 206 pounds of highly enriched uranium.

00:40:57.000 In 1976, CIA Deputy Director Carl Duckett briefed senior staff at the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, stating that they believe that the uranium went to Israel.

00:41:06.000 So here you have the CIA Deputy Director Carl Duckett, who says that this guy, Zalman Shapiro, gave this nuclear material, uranium, from the United States, stole it.

00:41:17.000 And gave it to Israel.

00:41:18.000 This is the deputy director of the CIA.

00:41:20.000 I mean, maybe you'd call that a conspiracy theory.

00:41:22.000 I think that happens to be a pretty good source.

00:41:24.000 Is that something that an ally does?

00:41:26.000 Is that something?

00:41:26.000 That sounds like something a rogue nation would do, right?

00:41:29.000 See, this is unfounded allegations and trauma.

00:41:33.000 I have a quote from the CIA.

00:41:35.000 Yeah, this is a quote.

00:41:37.000 This has not been stress tested in a court of law.

00:41:39.000 And again, here's what the people on your side default to unverified conspiracy theories, anecdotal evidence, and here's what people on my side default to.

00:41:50.000 Real life foreign policy that's proven very successful and very effective for the United States.

00:41:56.000 You know why you're a good debater?

00:41:57.000 It's because you pivot.

00:41:58.000 I ask you very simple and honest questions about things that have gone on.

00:42:02.000 I asked you many decades ago about a particular set of uranium that went missing from a particular plant.

00:42:08.000 And all I'm telling you is that I didn't come on the show to debate you on unfounded, debunked conspiracy theories.

00:42:13.000 Well, you came to debate about U.S. policy towards Israel.

00:42:17.000 And don't you think Israeli behavior is relevant to that question?

00:42:22.000 And I think that Israeli behavior in the global community has been very, very good.

00:42:25.000 Oh, except for how about the Plumbot affair?

00:42:29.000 Are you familiar with that one?

00:42:31.000 You guys bring up these conspiracy theories and anecdotes, just like you claim that Israel blew up our ship, the USS Liberty, when all the evidence has been trove through and it was an accident.

00:42:42.000 You guys have lots of conspiracy theories that you use to permeate anti Israel and more broadly, not you specifically, but many on your side, anti Semitic.

00:42:52.000 Kind of conspiracy theories.

00:42:54.000 If it's up to you, you will paint Israel as the number one global menace.

00:42:58.000 And that's just not the case.

00:43:00.000 Israel's been a community.

00:43:02.000 And if you want to turn your eyes to countries that engage in bad behavior with U.S. money, why don't you look at Colombia?

00:43:08.000 Why don't you look at Sudan?

00:43:09.000 Why don't you look at Kenya?

00:43:10.000 These are countries that act horribly with U.S. money. 0.99

00:43:13.000 These are countries that assassinate homosexuals in the streets. 0.96

00:43:17.000 These are countries that do things utterly repugnant to the types of U.S. values that we promote globally. 0.97

00:43:23.000 And yet, you have nothing to say about those countries.

00:43:25.000 Because they don't receive $3.8 billion a year in foreign aid.

00:43:29.000 Afghanistan received $4.5 billion a year in foreign aid.

00:43:32.000 And I'm against the war in Afghanistan.

00:43:34.000 And I'm against aid for Afghanistan.

00:43:37.000 And I'm against aid for Israel.

00:43:39.000 You're trying to paint it like I have this double standard.

00:43:41.000 People that get money, I'm against them getting money.

00:43:43.000 Right.

00:43:44.000 I think the issue is, though, you're working within a framework of options that don't exist.

00:43:49.000 So, Afghanistan's not a victory aboard the ship sort of mission.

00:43:53.000 It's a regional security mission.

00:43:55.000 And the United States has been, frankly, quite successful in Afghanistan at winning another 11.

00:44:00.000 Really?

00:44:01.000 That's why the war has been going on for 17 years? 0.98

00:44:04.000 Do you think that's a success? 0.85

00:44:06.000 We've been in Germany for 80 years now.

00:44:09.000 And it's been a success.

00:44:10.000 It's called regional security.

00:44:12.000 So we hear regional security.

00:44:15.000 So we hear these arguments that it's just very interesting to me that in your defense of $3.8 billion a year to aid in Israel, your arguments are well, they vote for us for the UN.

00:44:26.000 Well, other countries do bad things and they get money.

00:44:30.000 And like they give us lousy intelligence.

00:44:32.000 I mean, really, it's striking to me.

00:44:35.000 They give us a 10x multiple on our money, which is lousy, which is lousy in the words of the CIA.

00:44:41.000 They co developed the Iron Dome alongside the United States.

00:44:44.000 They have done anything that justifies the money that is sent to them.

00:44:48.000 I'm not hearing many arguments.

00:44:50.000 I'm hearing a lot of doubting of the evidence.

00:44:54.000 And look, I regret to ask you this.

00:44:55.000 I really do.

00:44:57.000 And I hope you don't get offended by this.

00:44:59.000 Nothing's off limits.

00:45:00.000 But you are Jewish, and Israel is the Jewish homeland for the Jewish people.

00:45:05.000 Are you prejudiced in favor of Israel?

00:45:08.000 Absolutely.

00:45:09.000 Well, I think that's what we needed to hear.

00:45:09.000 All right.

00:45:12.000 And that's, I think, my biggest problem, because for people.

00:45:15.000 That are Americans, Christians in particular, that want to put America first, we are prejudiced in favor of our country.

00:45:21.000 And so when people come over here and they have their prejudices for their, you know, any other country other than the United States, I simply don't think that has any place in politics.

00:45:31.000 The slogan of the country is e pluribus unum, out of many, one.

00:45:35.000 So that means that you don't get to come here and have your prejudices in favor of another country.

00:45:39.000 You don't get to be here and have, you know, this dual allegiance for another country.

00:45:43.000 I mean, don't you think that's going to color your position on Israel? 0.69

00:45:47.000 We're not a fan of everything Israel does. 0.77

00:45:49.000 I'm not a fan of everything Israel does. 0.65

00:45:50.000 But listen, their overall policy goals are in line with ours.

00:45:55.000 We don't share many things with many countries around the world.

00:45:58.000 We don't have, as Obama put it, this global community that's all striving towards the same thing.

00:46:04.000 But there are a few countries where we share a few very important interests.

00:46:07.000 Israel happens to be a place where we share many of the same interests, many of the same values.

00:46:12.000 And frankly, it's just a good deal from a money standpoint.

00:46:17.000 Well, what are the interests?

00:46:18.000 What are the interests?

00:46:21.000 Nick.

00:46:22.000 Having global security in the Middle East, promoting American democracy.

00:46:26.000 These are all things that you can read off a postcard that make a lot of sense to 90% of Americans.

00:46:32.000 But wait, have you.

00:46:34.000 Israel promotes security in the region, really?

00:46:38.000 Are you aware that out of the 25 neoconservative intellectuals who are for the war in Iraq, more than half were Jewish?

00:46:43.000 I mean, do you understand that most of the wars.

00:46:47.000 The war in Iraq is not a great thing, but it's kind of underrated.

00:46:50.000 But that was destabilizing, was it not? 0.74

00:46:53.000 Destabilizing in the short term, but frankly, Iraq's never been more stable. 0.74

00:46:57.000 Iraq is stable now, really. 0.60

00:47:00.000 After how many years of ISIS, you would contend that Iraq was more stable now than it was under Saddam Hussein.

00:47:06.000 Right.

00:47:07.000 What about Muammar Gaddafi?

00:47:08.000 Is Libya more stable now than it was?

00:47:11.000 Well, than it was before.

00:47:12.000 Before Muammar Gaddafi?

00:47:12.000 Really?

00:47:14.000 You're aware that they don't have a single government right now.

00:47:16.000 They're a failed state.

00:47:18.000 But Libya's more stable than they were before.

00:47:21.000 Really?

00:47:22.000 Okay.

00:47:22.000 So Libya's more stable.

00:47:24.000 Iraq is more stable. 0.90

00:47:25.000 Oh, it's not. 0.99

00:47:26.000 I didn't hear you.

00:47:26.000 Okay, I'm sorry.

00:47:28.000 Yeah, they're not more stable.

00:47:29.000 All right, well, so Libya is not more stable.

00:47:31.000 Syria, is Syria more or less stable than it was before the United States intervened on behalf of Israel?

00:47:38.000 The United States has not intervened on behalf of Israel in the United States.

00:47:41.000 It's a false premise.

00:47:43.000 Well, again, I would refer you to the neoconservatives.

00:47:46.000 I mean, just who are the neoconservatives?

00:47:47.000 These are great people that are very smart, like John Bolton.

00:47:51.000 These are the quote unquote neoconservatives that you're talking about.

00:47:54.000 And you just admitted that as a Jewish person, you're prejudiced in favor of Israel.

00:47:58.000 And out of the 25 in favor of the United States.

00:48:02.000 I believe that Israel is the eternal homeland of all Jews.

00:48:04.000 This is a very non controversial, non scandalous thing that's baked in. 0.95

00:48:10.000 I think it is a little bit scandalous.

00:48:12.000 I think if you went around the world, you'd find it's a little bit controversial.

00:48:15.000 Maybe not in America, where they read the Schofield Bible, but I think everybody else understands that this is a pretty controversial position.

00:48:21.000 But we're not arguing about Zionism.

00:48:23.000 We're arguing about interests. 0.73

00:48:24.000 So you say that Israel promotes regional stability by building illegal settlements, by being the only country in the region with a nuclear program.

00:48:36.000 What's that?

00:48:37.000 There are no illegal settlements.

00:48:38.000 Absolutely, there are.

00:48:39.000 If they're military occupation, it's legal.

00:48:43.000 Okay, but Nick, here's the thing. 0.87

00:48:45.000 You apply international law when it's convenient, right?

00:48:47.000 No.

00:48:48.000 By international law and international decree, you shouldn't have the right to own a firearm.

00:48:52.000 But you apply it when it's convenient. 0.81

00:48:54.000 When it comes to singling out Israel and singling out Israeli settlements, all of a sudden you're a big fan of international law.

00:48:59.000 International law says I can't own a gun?

00:49:03.000 The UN is not in favor of the Second Amendment. 0.65

00:49:03.000 That's right. 0.65

00:49:05.000 Really?

00:49:06.000 Do you have a bill?

00:49:07.000 Do you have a law there where it says that?

00:49:09.000 This is all over the place.

00:49:11.000 Oh, okay.

00:49:11.000 Well, you know, because I think it's kind of funny that, again, these are, and by the way, this is not coming from me.

00:49:17.000 It is the position of the U.S. government that these are illegal settlements.

00:49:21.000 So don't argue with me and say, take me out of this.

00:49:24.000 Let's just say, for the sake of argument, that I'm kind of ambivalent as to whether they're illegal or not.

00:49:28.000 It's the position of the United States government since 1967 that the civilian settlements, they can have a military occupation, but the civilian settlements are illegal.

00:49:38.000 So, I mean, do you, again, are you a better arbiter of American foreign policy and American interest?

00:49:43.000 Than every U.S. president since 1967?

00:49:46.000 I think I'm a better, I'm not an arbiter of foreign policy.

00:49:49.000 I think I'm a better articulator of foreign policy than, say, Barack Obama, but that's for everyone else to decide.

00:49:56.000 Okay, well, that's kind of a non answer.

00:49:58.000 So, I mean, if you think they're contributing to regional stability by, again, having the only nuclear program in the region, an illegal nuclear program, they're expanding illegal civilian settlements, they are fomenting wars around from Iraq to all over the place, Iran, I mean, the way Bibi Netanyahu shills for war in Iran.

00:50:16.000 It's just shameful. 0.51

00:50:17.000 It's outright shameful to argue that that's enhancing security.

00:50:21.000 Do you think it would be enhancing security? 0.52

00:50:23.000 So you're attempting to persuade people that a country that is 12 miles wide wants war all around them in the Middle East, right? 0.55

00:50:31.000 Yes. 0.97

00:50:32.000 That's really in the interest of Israel.

00:50:34.000 Yes, it actually is. 0.69

00:50:36.000 By people who are adverse to their belief systems, religion, ethnicity, and everything else.

00:50:41.000 Yeah.

00:50:42.000 Yeah, this is.

00:50:43.000 Don't take my word for it.

00:50:44.000 Take the former prime minister, Yanan's. 0.90

00:50:46.000 Word for it, who wrote in the 1980s as part of the Securing the Greater Realm of Israel document that it was actually in their interest to take down all these Muslim countries.

00:50:54.000 You don't have to take my word for it.

00:50:56.000 You can go back to the 1950s they were writing about this.

00:51:00.000 And how many countries have been taken down by Israel, Nick?

00:51:03.000 Not taken down by Israel, but have just been taken down. 0.81

00:51:05.000 I just think it's kind of. 0.62

00:51:07.000 You said that Israel doesn't want this, and I argued that they do want this.

00:51:10.000 I didn't say that Israel took them down.

00:51:13.000 I'm saying that Israel wants them to be taken down, and that's what their prime minister said.

00:51:18.000 And you again straw man me by saying, well, Israel took them down?

00:51:21.000 What's that? 0.87

00:51:22.000 So, if they want to foment war in the Middle East, why haven't they done it? 0.99

00:51:26.000 They have. 0.99

00:51:27.000 They have.

00:51:28.000 I told you that out of the 25 neoconservative intellectuals in the Bush administration, more than half were Jewish. 0.55

00:51:35.000 And as you said earlier, these are your words, not mine.

00:51:37.000 You were prejudiced in favor of Israel.

00:51:39.000 I would imagine that the people who constructed the Warner Rock, and I could even go back and we can look at all the media that was done by Israelis. 0.90

00:51:46.000 And here, here we go. 0.59

00:51:48.000 This is from Philip Zelico, a member of the president's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board, who told a University of Virginia audience in September of 2012, That Saddam Hussein was not a direct threat to the United States.

00:52:00.000 He said, The real threat is against Israel.

00:52:04.000 And this is the threat that dare not speak its name because Europeans don't care deeply about this threat. 0.54

00:52:10.000 And the American government doesn't want to lean too hard on it rhetorically because it's not a popular sell.

00:52:15.000 That was the president's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board, a member.

00:52:19.000 General Wesley Clark, retired NATO commander and former presidential candidate, said in August 2002 those who favor this attack now, which is the war in Iraq, Will tell you candidly and privately that it is probably true that Saddam Hussein is no threat to the United States, but they are afraid that at some point he might decide if he had a nuclear weapon to use against Israel.

00:52:39.000 John Klein in Time magazine a week before the war, quote, a stronger Israel is very much embedded in the rationale for war with Iraq.

00:52:45.000 Shimon Peres on CNN, we think and know that Saddam Hussein is on his way to carrying a nuclear weapon, which they knew wasn't true.

00:52:51.000 So, I mean, there's just abundant evidence to suggest that Israel was very much in favor of this war and stood to gain a lot.

00:52:58.000 And you're arguing that they were in favor of stability?

00:53:00.000 Nope.

00:53:01.000 So, it was Israel that voted on behalf of the United Nations Security Council.

00:53:06.000 Oh, again, I like this so.

00:53:08.000 Excuse me.

00:53:09.000 Go ahead.

00:53:10.000 Go ahead.

00:53:11.000 With the seat on the Security Council that actually they don't have.

00:53:14.000 So, it was the United States, it was the UN Security Council, which Israel doesn't have a seat on, that voted to condemn Saddam Hussein and allow the United States to wage war against him.

00:53:24.000 It was Congress, who we can all agree are not majority Jewish, as you seem to think is some sort of issue. 0.60

00:53:32.000 Who voted to invade Iraq and allow that invasion to take place? 0.50

00:53:38.000 So I ask you if it was some sort of Jewish conspiracy within the neoconservative intellectuals, the neoconservative intellectuals to me seem to have a hell of a lot less sway than the UN Security Council, than many European nations, and then all of Congress, who also seem to be on the side of invading Iraq. 0.71

00:53:57.000 So all I'm saying is you can debate the merits of invading Iraq, but to blame it on 25, Half Jewish neoconservative intellectuals seem to be entirely spurious. 0.60

00:54:07.000 I'm not blaming. 0.92

00:54:08.000 No, no, I'm.

00:54:09.000 Well, that's part of it, of course.

00:54:10.000 But then, of course, you have all this other testimony.

00:54:12.000 Of course, Israel provided a lot of the intelligence that said that there were weapons of mass destruction.

00:54:17.000 I mean, there was, after the invasion, a review by the Knesset and the Senate Intelligence Committees that released both of them independent reports revealing that Israeli intelligence was false.

00:54:29.000 Israel fed alarming reports.

00:54:30.000 This is from the Israel lobby about Iraq's WMD program at a time when, by Sharon's own reckoning, quote, Strategic coordination between the U.S. and Israel had reached unprecedented dimensions.

00:54:40.000 So I'm not arguing.

00:54:42.000 I'm arguing from the position that if you look at the decision makers behind the war in Iraq, if you looked at the decision makers in Israel, Israel was very much in favor of the war in Iraq.

00:54:52.000 Israel stood to gain a lot with the war in Iraq.

00:54:54.000 Israel fed false intelligence to the United States that supported war in Iraq.

00:55:01.000 Israelis went on American television and supported war in Iraq.

00:55:06.000 You had Jewish people, and you said yourself, prejudiced in favor of Israel.

00:55:10.000 25 out of 25, more than half that were Jewish supporting war in Israel.

00:55:14.000 You have people from the president's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board, you have a former NATO commander, and they're all saying the same thing that Israel wanted the war.

00:55:22.000 And look, this is not the only one. 0.70

00:55:24.000 I'm not saying that this, you keep throwing out this Jewish conspiracy stuff.

00:55:28.000 I'm merely looking at the data.

00:55:30.000 I'm merely looking at the evidence, which suggests that Israel was a significant contributor, which stands against your argument to suggest that Israel enhances security in the region, when in fact, Israel destabilized this region by advocating for this war, by creating false intelligence, or if they were not directly responsible, they wanted to destabilize the region.

00:55:51.000 So obviously, we do not share a common interest, right?

00:55:56.000 No, not that.

00:55:57.000 I mean, I just.

00:55:58.000 Charming.

00:55:59.000 Israel's been a great actor in the region.

00:56:01.000 I love it.

00:56:02.000 I love it.

00:56:03.000 And in an absolute sense.

00:56:04.000 And I just don't agree with you.

00:56:06.000 All right.

00:56:07.000 Well, I mean, you just haven't answered the charges that, I mean, they build settlements against the wishes of our presidents.

00:56:13.000 They build an illegal nuclear program against the wishes of the United States.

00:56:17.000 They foment war in Iraq and other places. 0.77

00:56:20.000 They sell our technology to China.

00:56:22.000 I mean, they do all kinds of activity. 0.72

00:56:23.000 They spy on our people.

00:56:25.000 And you, this like, this consistent campaign of denial of the facts.

00:56:30.000 Disinterest in looking into these things and just an overwhelming prejudice in favor.

00:56:35.000 I mean, everybody can tell that you're using platitudes.

00:56:37.000 I just would say consistently, three to four out of the five arguments you make seem to be based on unverified or utterly debunked conspiracy theories or just outright lies.

00:56:48.000 You haven't debunked them.

00:56:49.000 Like the idea that there's some illegal nuclear program that's of concern to the United States.

00:56:53.000 If there was some nuclear program that was of concern to the United States, why has there not been one Senate or House subcommittee that's looked into this?

00:57:00.000 I think it might have something to do with.

00:57:00.000 I don't know.

00:57:02.000 The fact that two thirds of the House and Senate attend AIPAC every year and receive their campaign contributions from them.

00:57:07.000 I think that might have something to do with it. 0.79

00:57:09.000 Well, the Jewish state has nuclear weapons and they were invented by Einstein, who was a Jew. 0.88

00:57:14.000 So we can seek some sort of poetic justice in that sense, I think. 0.91

00:57:18.000 Wow.

00:57:19.000 Again, I'm really struck.

00:57:21.000 I'm not against Israel pursuing her own interest. 0.79

00:57:24.000 I'm against Israel pursuing her own interest at our expense.

00:57:28.000 You're just caught up over the $3 billion bill, over the bar tab.

00:57:32.000 And, uh, It doesn't make a lot of sense.

00:57:35.000 And it's, by the way, it's much more than 3.8 as well.

00:57:37.000 But I mean, look, I think everybody can tell basically what you're doing.

00:57:41.000 I've given you facts and sources and quotes and statistics.

00:57:46.000 And each time you respond with a caricature of my position and platitudes, which is, look, Israel has been a great ally.

00:57:53.000 Look, Israel has done so much for us.

00:57:55.000 These are utterly debunked conspiracy theories. 0.79

00:57:57.000 And yet, all you can do is sit there and say, they're liars.

00:58:00.000 They made that up.

00:58:01.000 It's a conspiracy theory.

00:58:02.000 What's that?

00:58:03.000 Bite line items.

00:58:04.000 Show me the line items.

00:58:06.000 We can go through the line items again.

00:58:08.000 You get $60 billion out in intelligence.

00:58:10.000 You look at this and break it down dollar by dollar, dime by dime, and you see that it's a very worthwhile investment.

00:58:17.000 I mean, why don't we take the $3.8 billion and put it in Bitcoin or put it in oil drilling or put it in Canadian lesbian dance theory classes?

00:58:26.000 I don't know. 0.51

00:58:27.000 It's because it's a good investment in Israel.

00:58:30.000 You haven't been able to demonstrate that.

00:58:32.000 I mean, again, we give them this money, which you say is an insignificant sum.

00:58:38.000 But we give them this, we reward them for bad behavior.

00:58:42.000 We reward them for spying on us, for stealing our intelligence, for stealing our nuclear secrets, for selling our weapons technology to foreign countries, to adversaries. 0.91

00:58:52.000 That's the reason that we give them money, Nick, is because they don't sell technology to the Chinese. 0.97

00:58:57.000 Would you like? 0.99

00:58:58.000 Oh, I got a stat for you, then, my buddy.

00:59:01.000 And no, the Israelis are not spying on us.

00:59:03.000 There's not some spy ring into your home organized by Israelis.

00:59:08.000 So listen, do you want to talk about nuclear programs that?

00:59:11.000 We don't know exist.

00:59:12.000 If you want to talk about spy programs that we don't know exist, we do.

00:59:14.000 If you want to talk about bad behavior and support for ISIS that you can't seem to specify, then you've got a very good argument.

00:59:21.000 But otherwise, if we look at facts, dollar for dollar.

00:59:24.000 We're not seeing any facts from you.

00:59:25.000 Quit, Nick.

00:59:26.000 It's just not seeing any facts.

00:59:28.000 Okay, so for example, you say it's baseless about Israeli spying.

00:59:31.000 Here's former NSA counterintelligence officer John Schindler, who says that Israel is as aggressive. 0.74

00:59:37.000 John Schindler, who's a joke, who's an anti Trump lunatic on Twitter.

00:59:41.000 John Schindler's opinion is worth absolutely nothing. 0.92

00:59:45.000 Goose egg.

00:59:46.000 How about John David, former head of the Justice Department's internal security selection, which says that Israel is the second most active foreign intelligence service in the United States?

00:59:55.000 What about Foreign Policy Magazine, which says that Israeli agents have stolen reconnaissance systems from defense contractors?

01:00:02.000 How about the 2013 National Intelligence Estimate, which put Israel as the third most aggressive espionage force behind only Russia and China?

01:00:10.000 How about the case of Larry Franklin, who was arrested in 2004 for passing classified information regarding Iran?

01:00:17.000 To an Israeli diplomat with the assistance of two senior AIPAC officials.

01:00:22.000 But, you know, of course, they're all in on it.

01:00:25.000 They're all in on the anti Semitic conspiracy.

01:00:27.000 They all go to the anti Semite meetings where they say, hmm, how are we going to fabricate evidence?

01:00:33.000 How are we going to lie to the American people today and invent these lies about what's happening with Israel?

01:00:39.000 I mean, you're the conspiracy theorist.

01:00:41.000 Evidence and sources and statistics.

01:00:44.000 First sourcing is spying that you can really only point to in a couple of instances.

01:00:49.000 It is.

01:00:50.000 A non existent, for all intents and purposes, nuclear program.

01:00:54.000 And it's all sorts of other things that are really, as far as we know in terms of facts, figments of our imagination.

01:01:00.000 In terms of facts, can you cite me one fact besides just denying, besides just this?

01:01:06.000 Well, everyone's making everything up.

01:01:08.000 We've gone all through this, Nick.

01:01:09.000 Have we?

01:01:10.000 Well, let's hear your evidence.

01:01:12.000 The $80 billion of intelligence return on capital.

01:01:14.000 Which the CIA calls lousy.

01:01:16.000 The porn of Haifa, which you think is strategically insignificant, which I disagree and I think is very strategically significant.

01:01:23.000 Tell me how.

01:01:23.000 How?

01:01:23.000 The fact that we have air bases in Israel that we can use, the fact that we have weapons caches in Israel that we can use, the fact that Israel is the only shining light in the Middle East against Islamofascism.

01:01:35.000 All of those things, which are very quantifiable, which are very demonstrable, and which are very real, to you don't make sense because there's some kind of spy grid going on and there's nuclear programs that you don't like. 0.84

01:01:35.000 Give me a break. 0.84

01:01:45.000 No, no, because they are diametrically opposing American interests and they're taking with both hands.

01:01:51.000 And I love here, because we've kind of gone through the rigmarole on this one multiple times, I love this.

01:01:56.000 Israel's the shining moral example.

01:01:59.000 I want to read to you some quotes by David Ben Gurion, the first prime minister of Israel, who said in June of 1937 Were I an Arab, I would rebel even more vigorously, bitterly, and desperately against the immigration that will one day turn Palestine and all its Arab residents over to Jewish rule. 0.92

01:02:20.000 He said in his diary, January 1st, 1948 There is a need now for strong and brutal reaction. 0.75

01:02:28.000 We need to be accurate about timing, place, and those we hit.

01:02:31.000 If we accuse a family, we need to harm them without mercy, women and children included.

01:02:36.000 There is no need to distinguish between guilty and non guilty.

01:02:39.000 And for a more modern example, how about?

01:02:42.000 In the Second Intifada, this is according to Haaretz, the IDF turned into a shocking killing machine with 3.5 to 1 Palestinians killed to every Israeli, and the number of children killed was 5.7 to 1.

01:02:56.000 Well over half the casualties were non combatants.

01:02:59.000 Four members of Shin Bet.

01:03:01.000 Condemned the action of the IDF as patently immoral.

01:03:04.000 How about the Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir, who said neither Jewish ethics nor Jewish traditions can disqualify terrorism as a means of combat?

01:03:14.000 Rather, terrorism has a great part to play in our war against the occupier, which was Britain at the time. 0.68

01:03:20.000 So you have this country from the time of its conception until now has been brutal against the Palestinians. 0.52

01:03:27.000 I mean, it's all right there from Israeli sources, from Israeli prime ministers, both in practice and in principle.

01:03:34.000 And look, I wouldn't even blame them.

01:03:37.000 That's ration d'etat.

01:03:39.000 That's their prerogative.

01:03:40.000 What's that?

01:03:41.000 Has gone up ninefold over the past 40 years.

01:03:44.000 If there's some type of genocide going on against Palestinians, as many people like to claim, it's news to me because the population's gone up ninefold.

01:03:54.000 I love how you pivot to an argument that you have an answer for.

01:03:57.000 Because notice, I didn't say there was a genocide going on. 0.53

01:04:00.000 I was saying that you make the case that Israel, excuse me, you say that Israel is a moral. 0.83

01:04:07.000 And it's just.

01:04:08.000 It's a shining light.

01:04:10.000 It's been pointed out many times.

01:04:11.000 It's kind of old.

01:04:12.000 They say that they're a shining light, and really the only shining light is white phosphorus in Israel.

01:04:17.000 That's the only shining light of morality going on there. 0.68

01:04:19.000 Why don't you do this?

01:04:21.000 Now let's hear it.

01:04:22.000 Let's hear it.

01:04:22.000 Why don't you walk through Raqqa, take a walk through Riyadh, take a walk through Dubai, and take a walk through Islamabad, Pakistan, and then take a walk through Tel Aviv.

01:04:32.000 And you let me know which one is the shining light, okay? 0.91

01:04:35.000 No, I think the conditions most certainly are better in Israel.

01:04:38.000 I believe the material conditions are better in Israel, but.

01:04:41.000 I mean, if you're.

01:04:42.000 No, buddy boy. 0.62

01:04:46.000 You keep straw manning me again with arguments and epithets that you have rehearsed in practice, but you have no argument for the fact that the prime minister said that terrorism is not disqualified by Jewish ethics and traditions. 0.86

01:04:59.000 And it's a great part of our war against Britain. 0.80

01:05:01.000 The fact that then Begurion, he went on a tour, excuse me, it was Manicham Begin, who went on tour in the United States and said that Israel was not only the founder of terrorism in the Middle East, but in the whole world. 0.63

01:05:11.000 And then you have.

01:05:13.000 The founder of terrorism in the Middle East.

01:05:14.000 Oh, hey, that's not my contention. 0.86

01:05:15.000 These are your words, right?

01:05:17.000 That's not my contention.

01:05:18.000 You're endorsing them, right?

01:05:19.000 That's not.

01:05:20.000 No, no, no.

01:05:20.000 I'm merely citing the.

01:05:22.000 I'm merely citing Medicham Begin, who said these words.

01:05:25.000 You're endorsing them.

01:05:27.000 I think, Nick, we could go on all night.

01:05:27.000 I'm citing them.

01:05:30.000 I think it's good to let the people decide here.

01:05:32.000 I agree.

01:05:33.000 Listen, this has been fun.

01:05:35.000 You clearly think that Israel is a menace in the region and is destabilizing the Middle East, and I don't.

01:05:35.000 I think so.

01:05:41.000 And, you know, look, we can let everybody decide, and.

01:05:45.000 We'll see where they come out.

01:05:46.000 Maybe we can do a poll after this and see who comes out on top.

01:05:50.000 I agree.

01:05:51.000 And hey, thanks for coming on.

01:05:52.000 Thanks for being a good sport.

01:05:53.000 I love the argumentation.

01:05:55.000 Of course, it can get a little heated, but I mean, that's the fun of it.

01:05:58.000 So thanks for coming on and being a good sport.

01:06:00.000 We will do a poll.

01:06:01.000 We'll let the people decide.

01:06:02.000 I agree.

01:06:03.000 But have a great rest of your evening.

01:06:04.000 Thanks so much for coming on.

01:06:06.000 Take care.

01:06:06.000 All right.

01:06:07.000 Bye bye.

01:06:08.000 All right.

01:06:09.000 Well, that was very fun.

01:06:10.000 That was very good.

01:06:11.000 I think that was much better than the Will Chamberlain debate.

01:06:14.000 We didn't have the technical difficulties.

01:06:15.000 We didn't have.

01:06:17.000 You know, some of the other things that were going on, like the weird debate format the last time.

01:06:21.000 I thought this one was a lot of fun.

01:06:22.000 And, you know, to his credit, I think whatever you might think of what happened, I think Jacob Wohl has some stones to come on and defend that record.

01:06:32.000 I think it's a very difficult thing to argue.

01:06:35.000 It's a very difficult thing to defend against.

01:06:36.000 It's a very complicated argument.

01:06:38.000 Maybe not, maybe for some more than others, but we appreciate when our guests come on and they give us their all.

01:06:44.000 And that's what it's about.

01:06:45.000 It's really fun.

01:06:46.000 But that's going to do it for us tonight.

01:06:48.000 Big thanks to Jacob Wohl for coming on.

01:06:50.000 He was a good sport, and we did have a good debate.

01:06:52.000 It was respectful, it was informative, and I look forward to the poll.

01:06:56.000 We'll see the results.

01:06:57.000 Now, before we go, we have a little bit of an update for people that have not been following on Twitter.

01:07:04.000 The America First program is no longer associated with the company, America First Media, or James Alsup.

01:07:12.000 If you want to get the details, the scoop on that, I have a Periscope on my Twitter timeline.

01:07:19.000 You can check out my Periscope at Nick J. Fuentes for details about that.

01:07:23.000 But that's all right.

01:07:24.000 We wish them the best.

01:07:28.000 Conflicts of personality and possibly values and other things.

01:07:31.000 But the America First program will continue as it does every night, as it has every night since August, Monday through Friday at 7 p.m. Central Standard Time.

01:07:41.000 But we're going to go through a little bit of a transition phase.

01:07:43.000 We have a lot of big things planned for you this year.

01:07:47.000 There is a coalition in the works.

01:07:49.000 We have more content creators that will be joining us.

01:07:51.000 And I think a new project will be started very, very soon.

01:07:55.000 So you can look forward to that.

01:07:56.000 Finally, I have control over the super chats.

01:07:59.000 Previously, The super chats went into the company.

01:08:02.000 The super chats will now go to me, and I will use them towards making our set better, making our production quality better, and making this program as high quality as it can be.

01:08:12.000 So we look forward to all of that.

01:08:14.000 But that's going to do it for us tonight.

01:08:16.000 That's a short update.

01:08:17.000 I might do a more comprehensive video about it later or more periscope about it later.

01:08:22.000 Certainly, it was a little bit more dramatic over the weekend than I'm presenting it tonight, but we're moving past it.

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01:09:31.000 Americanism, not globalism, will be our credo.

01:09:38.000 It's going to be only America first.

01:09:43.000 America first. 0.99

01:09:47.000 The American people will come first once again. 0.60

01:10:00.000 The respect America first. 0.61

America First - Nicholas J. Fuentes - January 15, 2018

Jacob Wohl Debate on Israel | America First Ep. 86

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