00:00:51.000And I guess I wasn't initially planning on it, but I guess everyone's cool to do a member segment after the show and we'll find something fun to talk about.
00:00:57.000So, you know, we'll see how it plays out.
00:01:47.000Well, then they made a lot of protests, and there were big protests.
00:01:51.000Now they've actually made a lot of theater moves.
00:01:54.000If you want to jump in with your thoughts on mandates, what would happen if they came here, if you're for or against them?
00:02:00.000Look, there are elements of mandates that I can agree with.
00:02:02.000We've already set standards for other things like the MMR vaccine, very basic standard vaccines that we expect everyone to get before they can.
00:02:09.000Go to school, travel, and I think for the most part that's worked.
00:02:12.000We've eradicated plagues from the world.
00:02:15.000With regards to COVID, since this is an ongoing pandemic, we need to focus on approaches that are effective and that don't ostracize or exacerbate tensions.
00:02:23.000With regard to the Australian situation, it's not something I'm extensively familiar with, but generally speaking, I'm spamming chat.
00:03:48.000This is trying to create a two tiered system where if you don't make the proper medical decisions, you're not able to go to Broadway shows or go into restaurants, even when the efficacy of this vaccine is questionable at best.
00:04:02.000We see that in Israel, an 85% vaccinated country.
00:04:19.000I think we actually have a story we wrote on TimCast.com.
00:04:22.000That our view of the lockdowns is that it's alarmism because a new study from the Public Health of England found the Pfizer vaccine is 96% effective after two doses at staving off the Delta variant, and AstraZeneca was 92%.
00:04:35.000I would probably agree it's alarmism, but it's enough of an alarm for the public health leaders to undermine the argument that the vaccine is a solution to what would possibly satisfy the public.
00:04:45.000I mean, I was against the lockdowns in the first place.
00:04:47.000Let me be very clear when we were 1,000 deaths a day, not 334.
00:04:52.000First of all, It's experimental in the sense that there was an expedited process for its release, but there have been full and extensive studies taken on the safety and effectiveness of these vaccines.
00:05:00.000The reason why the FDA study hasn't been finished, the reason why it hasn't been fully vetted, isn't because they're looking for long term health effects, it's because they're determining the extent to which it protects you over a long period of time.
00:05:11.000Ergo, the fact of the matter is, by all available data, this is undeniably much safer to get the vaccine.
00:05:20.000Wait, a couple things, because you said a few things there.
00:05:22.000There are some instances where areas have more people being infected if they're already vaccinated.
00:05:27.000But if you take a look at, like, this is like data mining.
00:05:29.000If you take a look at the broader statistics, especially here in America, the number of people who have gotten breakthrough cases is something like 0.003% of people who have been vaccinated.
00:06:39.000Now, even if that claim is the case, it would remain the fact that unless the extent of that potential nerve damage is just apocalyptically severe, the effects of getting COVID would still be far, far worse than the potential side effects of that vaccine.
00:06:52.000However, if you were to say, let's say, worst case, Johnson Johnson, it's not viable, that gets pulled, we see what the consequences are, that doesn't really speak against the greater viability of the vaccines.
00:07:03.000We're talking hundreds of millions of people who have either been protected against the vaccine in part, or if they get it, or sorry, against the virus, or if they get it, their effects, their symptoms are much, much, much more massive.
00:07:15.000So I just want to just kind of play into the irony here that I'm the one criticizing the pharmaceutical companies and you're the ones that are, you're the one defending it.
00:08:34.000But whether or not that's on the table, and I can't just make that happen, when we're talking strictly about the effectiveness of the vaccine, it seems so effective.
00:08:42.000So that's not a praise of the capitalist industry behind it.
00:08:58.000The only comment I'm making is that it's not.
00:08:59.000What do you have to say about VARES, though?
00:09:00.000What do you have to say about the vaccine adverse event reporting system that says, well, over 7,000 people experience death after getting the vaccine?
00:09:19.000Yeah, VARES is a government website that physicians or individuals can submit complaints or concerns after an adverse event report from a vaccine.
00:09:28.000Since you cannot win in court against a vaccine production company, then they go through some process where the government then can distribute some form of remedy if you had an adverse event reaction.
00:09:39.000And researchers like it because if you take a vaccine or you get some other procedure, any medical drug done, you can report the effects there.
00:09:47.000And it can be a way of gathering sort of aggregate data concerning the effects of these.
00:09:54.000The problem is, researchers don't use this as a bulletproof way of determining the outcome or effect of anything because they're literally just unvetted online submissions that anybody can put in.
00:10:05.000So I ask you because I want to know how do you arrive at the conclusion that how many people did you say?
00:10:10.000Well, it's VARES's own data is 7,000 plus, and most of which, by the way, that anyone can submit.
00:10:16.000By the way, most of which are physician submitted, just so you know.
00:12:21.000Well, so the issue I have is one of the things that Vosh brought up is that there's been, how many you mentioned, 100 million, 160 million?
00:13:06.000I have gotten other vaccines in my life.
00:13:08.000So, I want to be able to have the right to say no to that.
00:13:11.000So, the American system, constitution, kind of like the tradition, is to be able to have people have nuance, preferences, and individualism when it comes to these sort of complex issues, not saying you can't go to a restaurant because we want you to take experimental medicine.
00:13:27.000First of all, if we're speaking to legal rights, the Supreme Court found over a century ago that when it came to vaccinations, this was a special exemption from some people's rights to.
00:13:36.000I will agree with you that the courts are not on my side.
00:13:38.000I will agree with you that the courts are not on my side.
00:14:18.000With all of that being said, just to speak to VARS, VARS is an incredibly effective system for locating and roughly attributing concerns related to the effects of drugs.
00:14:27.000The problem is that there are several.
00:14:30.000Elements to this disease that make it really difficult to pinpoint anything specific.
00:14:34.000The two of which being A, hundreds of millions of people vaccinated.
00:14:37.000That is a huge range to pull data from.
00:14:40.000And B, the propagandist fear campaigns and incredibly effective vaccine process that may lead people to misattribute whatever they've experienced to vaccines.
00:15:19.000I just want to make sure we weren't having misunderstandings.
00:15:22.000No, I think that's more of a reasonable answer.
00:15:24.000I'm just curious, just on the vaccine topic in general.
00:15:28.000Are you concerned by Dr. Malone coming out, who literally invented the mRNA vaccine and says that there's a dangerous spike protein involved and encourages people?
00:16:16.000What makes the current retinue of vaccines that we take?
00:16:19.000The mRNA process is different from other mRNAs.
00:16:21.000It doesn't involve the spike protein, according to him, the same composition as the measles mumps rubella type vaccine or the chickenpox vaccine.
00:16:35.000If he wasn't involved in the production of these modern vaccines, how could he possibly have any comment on any of the rigors or tests that were going on?
00:16:41.000Because he invented this type of vaccine.
00:16:42.000I'm just saying, does that bother you?
00:16:43.000Do you think he's just like a fear propagandist and like.
00:16:45.000No, he may well have concerns, but those are concerns that I would rather have addressed by the scientific community rather than, with respect to you and myself, YouTubers.
00:17:27.000I just want to say it's not just about the WHO.
00:17:29.000We're talking about a unified effort on the part of virtually every country on earth to get a hold of the vaccines that us Americans are privileged to have.
00:17:36.000This isn't just some, this isn't some like pharmaceutical Dr. Fauci push that wasn't broadly supported by any of the relevant experts.
00:17:43.000In the mRNA field, which is not huge because it's a very new development, internationally, there is a demand for these vaccines.
00:17:52.000I wanted to add just based on what you had said.
00:18:18.000Like you mentioned, you said, do you trust Fauci over Weinstein?
00:18:21.000I don't know if there is a fact based argument if you have the doctors you trust and the doctors you trust or the organizations you trust.
00:18:28.000It's a clash of who you believe, to be honest.
00:18:29.000None of us have the credentials to just come up with these arguments on their own.
00:18:33.000There will always be bias in who we choose to believe.
00:18:35.000However, given the plurality of people seem to support the safety and the effectiveness of the vaccine, and the fact that it doesn't take a virologist to notice that over half a million Americans have died to COVID, more than the combined death tolls of every war since World War I combined, including the Second World War in Vietnam.
00:19:17.000Like age, it causes a breakdown in other vital functions that then their death can be attributed as such.
00:19:23.000So, for example, of the many things that people die, it's not really COVID, it's just that COVID blanks their entire system internally, and eventually something fails, something breaks, and they die.
00:19:33.000There were people claiming that there were deaths being spuriously attributed to COVID 19 very rarely during this pandemic.
00:19:38.000But thankfully, we know that there are people that got hit by a car, died, happened to have COVID, and they called that a COVID death.
00:20:17.000But to believe that there's like a nefarious effort or anything like that, ultimately what it comes down to is, in my opinion, having a trusted medical professional that you can consult with.
00:20:26.000And I think there could be an argument that if you're over the age of 70, that this vaccine might be a really good idea for you.
00:20:32.000However, to mandate it for schools and for colleges, when these are highly complex medical decisions, that's where I'm going to push back against it.
00:20:44.000Well, really, let me let me I don't want to speak out of turn.
00:21:04.000Well, because hydroxychloroquine studies have found it largely ineffective.
00:21:08.000There was, I believe, a French study that stopped when people started dying of heart failure.
00:21:12.000I think the only reason the right dies in this hill is because Trump mentioned it.
00:21:15.000I don't think there'd be a push for it otherwise.
00:21:17.000The vaccines are the effective way of getting mass populations inoculated.
00:21:20.000And while it is true that most of the people who die are ancient, the fact remains that people experience long term side effects from getting COVID, even if they survive.
00:21:29.000I know people who are in their 30s, and, you know, me, a blistering 27 year old myself, I'm not especially worried, but I've heard them talk about how much harder it is for them to climb up flights of stairs.
00:21:38.000I know that erectile dysfunction, fellas, is one of the listed potential side effects of getting COVID, even young, healthy, no other problems.
00:21:46.000It is true that death is most comorbid.
00:23:38.000When it comes to these companies themselves, and when I say, you know, go get your Pfizer vaccine, whatever, please do not mistake this or anything else that I say for an endorsement of the practices of these companies.
00:23:47.000It is only through cruel twist of fate and the economic system we live in that they are the ones put in a position to handle this.
00:23:54.000But it was the workers at those companies, not the CEOs, who did the work.
00:23:57.000I'm just curious, does that ever make you stop short and say, huh, maybe they're trying to massively inoculate us on a vaccine that might not be as effective to try to pursue profit, not well being?
00:24:08.000Does that ever, like, Enter into your.
00:24:47.000And there was probably a protracted effort on the part of these companies to make sure they were the first, and they probably took every dirty advantage they could.
00:24:53.000But with the data available, I have to still, much as I would say, hey, I would prefer eating McDonald's food to starvation, I have to say this is probably still something we should be doing.
00:25:16.000Deep down, you have this kind of urge that I'm already there where maybe they want this thing to go on for another decade to go make another hundred billion dollars.
00:25:25.000And maybe the cheap drug of hydroxychloroquine or ivermectin might work better than they might think.
00:27:27.000And it was because I think my approach to it was.
00:27:28.000And we'll see what Charlie Kirk says as well.
00:27:30.000Last time we had Vaishan, when you asked me about it, I couldn't give you a good answer.
00:27:34.000And I think we can talk about what's happening in schools, the things they're teaching children, and I don't know if either of you has an opinion and wants to start off with.
00:27:43.000There's the critical race theory that I know of, which is a highly esoteric, essentially elective class that you can take in some law schools that teaches you a variety of incredibly eclectic legal theories that I, some of which I like and some of which I think I disagree with.
00:27:57.000And then there's the critical race theory that people like Christopher Ruffo have been trying to push, a sort of catch all term to describe all anti racism.
00:28:16.000If I think that academia is to an extent sacred, of course, all the good things in our society now were born in the halls of academia.
00:28:23.000The Enlightenment, our democracy, the fair trial that we enjoy if we're arrested, these were things that were originally considered to be the crackpot initiatives of academics, and only through the respect of those ideas have we arrived at, well, what we have today.
00:28:35.000So, if there are problems that are solved in academia, not through the big enlightenment, wasn't it?
00:28:44.000So, a point of clarification you don't believe that critical race theory is in schools.
00:28:49.000I think that maybe there are ideas which overlap with critical race theory, but there's always going to be overlap between academic ideas.
00:28:56.000I mean, you know, I drank water, so did Hitler, one of those type situations.
00:29:01.000I think you're coming at it in good faith where you're technically correct here.
00:29:05.000That the super academic way of defining critical race theory is not being taught to fourth graders, right?
00:29:13.000With that being said, it's almost like saying, you know, we're not teaching advanced geometry to fourth graders, but we are teaching them, you know, very basic math, right?
00:29:43.000That's not James Lindsay, who are good friends of mine.
00:29:45.000That's the National Education Association, right?
00:29:49.000And I think they might even be talking about something different than the Delgado theory of critical race theory, right?
00:29:55.000And so what I want to try to do here, Tim, is we can talk about critical race theory as an academic theory, or we could use a filler term like wokeism, which is more like racial justice, which I actually think would probably be.
00:30:53.000Well, I just think that discussion is so unhelpful when Joy Reid and Christopher Ruffo are screaming at each other, and Joy Reid is saying, like, it's not being taught anywhere, Christopher Ruffo.
00:31:43.000What I will say, though, about to give credit to Christopher Ruffo is that this is all kind of downstream from the conversation that Marcuse and Delgado started.
00:31:53.000But just one thing, though, since we're operating under the blanket wokeism, which is a really broad term, let's talk about specific ideas.
00:32:01.000Because I'm sure there are some of them that I can provide a good defense for, and some of them I don't.0.79
00:32:04.000So, how about like black only dormitories?1.00
00:32:08.000I think that I don't think they're like explicitly harmful in the same way that traditional segregation is, but I also think that it incentivizes bad types of socialization where the way that you get a reprieve from the faults of society is to find comfort in people of your own race.
00:32:24.000Maybe that incentivizes some bad stuff.
00:32:27.000In my university, we had safe spaces, but you know what they were?
00:32:29.000They were like chilled, like coffee break rooms behind like Latin.
00:33:16.000And because of the way generational wealth transfers from father to son or mother to either, to anyone to their children, yeah, caught me there.
00:33:25.000Unfortunately, we still see the consequences of that borne out.
00:33:27.000You can actually look county by county where were slaves kept?
00:34:31.000It doesn't fix the problem, for one.1.00
00:34:34.000You can put money into that community, but there's been research done on how long a dollar stays in a black neighborhood as opposed to a white neighborhood.0.83
00:34:41.000And if a black neighborhood, all of the businesses are owned by corporate boards that are all majority white.0.82
00:34:46.000Eventually, the money filters out, and you get a very temporary living situation.0.91
00:34:52.000I'm a big fan of structural reparations, not based on race, but rather based on targeting neighborhoods that need it the most.0.73
00:34:57.000Some of these neighborhoods are white.
00:35:00.000I passed through some of them on my way out from Ronald Reagan Airport.0.98
00:35:02.000I can tell which parts of this country you can see it in the bones of the neighborhood.0.54
00:35:07.000And I think that a new reparation for the neighborhoods are black.0.97
00:35:11.000A new New Deal, even, would go a long way.1.00
00:35:14.000Well, so you're saying not even based on race?0.83
00:35:16.000I think that we should recognize that this is largely a racial project.
00:35:20.000Because unfortunately, poverty and race are really intertwined in this country.0.65
00:35:24.000But in terms of applying it, I think that it would be much more healthy if we treated it like a collective effort to bring up the lowest sort of echelon of our economic.0.98
00:35:32.000So I want to ask you, Charlie, would you agree with a program that was in, how do I describe this?
00:35:40.000Explained as reparations, but was not based on race, went to people based on class and neighborhood so that it could help Latinos and white people and Asians and everybody?
00:35:48.000First of all, I'm against reparations.
00:35:50.000I just don't like the word because it kind of implies this intergenerational guilt or.
00:35:56.000A lot of this kind of ridiculous nationalism.
00:36:11.000I really want to explore that with you because I think that's interesting.
00:36:13.000I think you're wrong, but I think that's interesting where I think the racial thing is actually being used to distract people like you and I from actually talking about what's really happening.
00:36:22.000Which is a small group of people getting a lot richer while normal people get poor.
00:36:26.000And I think the racial thing is being used as this distraction tool to throw a smokescreen in the middle while we're talking about something that we're never really going to have a consensus on when the true struggle right now is mainly economic.
00:36:52.000The argument is maybe that would be the most directed argument.
00:36:54.000It's not about how it's implemented, it's about generational reparations.
00:36:56.000But in my mind, The reason why it's important to recognize the racial issue here is that the nature of class divides in this country is cut into racial policy prior to the Civil Rights Act.
00:37:09.000The redlining that took place, lines which still remain not in law but in practice, led to very distinct.
00:37:15.000I mean, sometimes, you know, one side of the highway is ultimately about the cause.
00:37:52.000It's very clear to say I'm not from Chicago.
00:37:55.000I grew up in Beverly Hills, which is close, though, to West Hollywood and Koreatown, and the lines are clear as day.
00:38:02.000The reason I say that is because of the construction project.
00:38:05.000Is that because, um, but that's because of racial conflicts?
00:38:09.000It was race riot, pretty much white riot, all the time, with the exception of some, I guess, edge cases.
00:38:13.000Um, and they built highways of systemic racism, or the existence of systemic racism is something which is created by class by inertia.0.68
00:38:22.000It is not something you can explicitly legislate about.0.93
00:38:25.000I mean, obviously, nobody's out there passing laws like black people can't do this, that'd be silly.
00:38:29.000But instead, the consequences of slavery and of second class citizenship for black people left unaddressed, a wound left to fester that unfortunately.0.70
00:38:39.000Can't really heal itself inertially unless we do something specific.
00:38:43.000So, the issue with that argument is that the more that we intervened in the black community, it actually had the opposite effect.0.55
00:38:50.000And Thomas Sowell probably has done the best research and literature on this.0.70
00:39:18.000And the black community, especially the area really well in the south of Chicago, right near the Chicago stockyards, the black community almost had this rallying cry where they were being discriminated against everywhere and they kind of collectivized their purchasing power and they saw their incomes increase actually at a higher rate than white Americans in the 40s and 50s and early 60s.
00:39:40.000You've heard this argument many times and you probably disagree with it, but it's just true that the moment that we all of a sudden de emphasized, Fathers being in the home and subsidized fatherlessness, we saw all these other trends increase.
00:40:17.000Yeah, and it's not necessarily that America got more racist.
00:40:21.000It could be the cocaine thing, which is a common issue.
00:40:25.000It could be operations of all these things.
00:40:27.000But a 40 point increase, I would point to a culture of fatherlessness, really bad government run public schools, and then subsidizing behavior that isn't good.
00:40:37.000So there are a few things that I can agree with you on.
00:40:40.000First of all, having two people in your house to raise you is pretty much essential.
00:40:53.000Good, you need it's in this economy, one parent, honestly.
00:40:57.000Yeah, but with that being said, there has been research shown that the rate of black fatherlessness is somewhat over exaggerated, in large part because that number only applies to married fathers, so husbands raising their children.0.70
00:41:11.000It turns out when you account for unmarried black couples taking care of their kids, the numbers actually rise to those just, I think, just below white couples.
00:41:19.000I think there was an article on that, I don't know if I remember, saw it in Vice, but it tracks back to some really big study that was done.
00:41:30.000For example, many welfare stipulations cut off with a shared income, which is only a few thousand dollars per year higher than the necessary cutoff for the single income, meaning that if you're a single mom, you can apply for the welfare just fine.
00:41:46.000But then if you get married or otherwise file jointly, you go above the cap for welfare.
00:41:51.000This is a horribly designed program, undeniably, and it incentivizes bad, destructive behavior.
00:41:57.000The best thing that we can do, we Restructure the welfare system in this country.
00:42:05.000I don't think either of you benefit from it, I'm guessing.
00:42:08.000But we do collectively downstream from the increased economic potential of people who now have the money to afford daycare, proper childcare, get an education.
00:42:18.000In the long run, people in this country being richer enriches all of us.
00:42:24.000We find out what works and what doesn't.
00:42:26.000Which welfare programs function, which don't.
00:42:28.000Which types of economic revitalization function and which don't.
00:42:31.000I legitimately believe that if we apply this, This country has the bones to be just a permanent economic beacon on the hill, just like a shiny example to the rest of the world.
00:42:42.000The bigger issue with the racial thing is that when you put some of these factors in, even the present data, it doesn't pan out on racial lines, right?0.96
00:42:50.000And this is where I think you'll agree because you just said two parents in the home is a good thing, which we totally agree on.0.90
00:43:06.000But I will say that if you look at the data from the government, a white child being raised by a single mother is less likely to succeed by 10 independently picked metrics than a black child being raised by a mother and a father.0.63
00:43:21.000And so maybe it's less about the skin color and more about the removal of parents and specifically fathers in the homes.0.87
00:43:29.000Now, if you want to talk about a domestic Marshall Plan to go put fathers back in the home regardless of skin color, I will sign up for that in a second.0.82
00:43:36.000With the right welfare, the right systems, I think people will.0.89
00:43:40.000But that would then all of a sudden de emphasize what you said earlier, where it says it needs to be on racial lines, where I say, no, no, it needs to be on nuclear family lines.
00:43:46.000Well, no, I think that the neighborhood revitalization should just be on like a sort of class assessment.
00:43:51.000I think that when we recognize this problem, though, there are so many trends when it comes to poverty that involve the discussion of race, you know?
00:44:00.000There are some types of poverty, some effects that are just ubiquitous and equally felt.
00:44:05.000But with regards to, say, you know, black people, the fact that they couldn't get loans to purchase homes for a very long time, I mean, there are people living who couldn't.0.91
00:44:21.000Let me just point out all these white guys sitting here having a debate over the black community, huh?
00:44:25.000I just think that there is a lot of economic inequality.
00:44:28.000A lot of it's tied to race, but we don't need to turn this into some weird blood quantum thing that you're tracking down every black American and holding them under a microscope to see whether they get benefits.
00:44:54.000I don't know how you describe it because it's a variety of things.
00:44:56.000Wokeism is typically a catch all term for some kind of ideology that involves anti racism, which involves critical race theory, critical race praxis.
00:45:04.000And you're seeing in schools specific curriculums where they say to kids, like, we had a book here.
00:45:10.000We had a book brought to us by one of these parents who's been going to these schools.
00:45:14.000And it was an anti racist curriculum workbook where everyone asked.
00:45:24.000Charlie Kirk is in charge of another book where the whole debate is being framed by the fact that you're lying to me about race, and then there was a whiteness contract with a devil tail coming out of it.0.84
00:45:33.000Because the guy acts like he's an ankyl when he's pushing it.0.69
00:45:36.000It's just the whiteness devil tail thing.0.95
00:46:32.000So let's go to just piece, you know, issue by issue.
00:46:34.000Ibram X. Kendi, who's kind of one of the, you know, archangels of the wokeism movement.
00:46:40.000I'm beloved to hear that in the minds of conservatives and liberals.
00:46:43.000So Ibram X. Kendi, and I'm paraphrasing, and you guys can pick up the quote, is that we need discrimination today because all these people are just like a.
00:46:51.000That's the essence of the quote, right, Tim?
00:46:53.000Yeah, he said the only solution for past discrimination is present discrimination, and the only solution for present discrimination is future discrimination.
00:47:04.000Because I don't believe if there was some God who could just distribute all resources in a perfectly ordained way and did so at the snap of a finger, then maybe that would be a decent argument.
00:47:13.000In the real world, we have to go through politics, and any kind of discriminatory treatment under any circumstances, no matter how well intentioned, is going to have adverse effects.
00:47:20.000So, with regard to what he said, there is a very charitable interpretation, and that charitable interpretation is discriminatory practices in the past necessitate favorable practices today, a way of bringing people up.
00:47:32.000My reparations argument I mean, the poor in this country have always had it bad, at least.
00:48:11.000This is common in upper academia, and I know Idrim sometimes gets brought into non academic discussions, which I don't consider myself an academic, so I'm including myself in that.
00:48:20.000But sometimes I think these are fun to discuss, these ideas.
00:48:24.000What I noticed, at least in some of the classes that I took, the higher end classes, you know, was that sometimes when you were presented ideas, they were presented not to have you agree with them, but rather to incentivize the greatest discussion.
00:48:35.000For example, I wasn't an economist, but I did learn about Karl Marx.
00:48:39.000Now, not many professors are actual Marxists, unfortunately.
00:48:44.000So when Marx was brought up in that context, it wasn't like, here's what you need to know, here's what you should believe.
00:48:50.000It was more, here are some ideas, radical and agreeable.
00:49:44.000Do you see any downsides to getting three year olds just caring, not three year olds, third graders caring about the color of people's skin all the time?
00:49:51.000Well, I think depending on their environment, they might already, whether they know it or not, in very implicit and subtle ways.
00:49:57.000We know from tests done, for example, on like little, little kids, like four year olds or whatever, that some elements of implicit racial bias already infect their thinking.
00:50:41.000Not saying that you should start to emphasize, organize, What people look like because, therefore, it means something that we're going to tell you.0.87
00:50:50.000A great example is that this is the textbook definition of stereotyping, right?0.57
00:50:55.000Is that if you see a black person, you don't know their history.
00:50:58.000You don't know if they're the son of a Nigerian billionaire.
00:51:01.000You don't know if they're an immigrant from Turks and Caicos.
00:51:03.000And you don't know if they're the ninth generation descendant of slaves, right?
00:51:07.000There's been two million blacks that have come to America legally through the immigration process since 1980.0.96
00:51:13.000So, this sort of hyper fixation on race, and I want to keep on getting back to this because I'm just curious do you think this is actually helpful when.
00:51:22.000When there actually might be stuff that 90% of the country agrees on, do you think this actually might be a smokescreen tactic?
00:53:07.000Yeah, in the first draft from Thomas Jefferson.
00:53:09.000The Crown had enslaved people who had done nothing to offend the Crown, brought them to the States, and then were offering them the freedom that was stolen from them to wage war against the colonists who had grievances.
00:53:51.000An important factor here is that I believe it was the British Empire, actually, 1833 had abolished slavery in all of its territories.
00:53:58.000And it took the U.S. a little bit longer to do so.
00:54:01.000But I want to make sure I stress this issue for the start of the country was.
00:54:06.000Contentious and ultimately led to violence because, from the beginning, as Charlie pointed out, most of the states had already abolished this, so it was like people were ready to fight from the beginning.
00:54:15.000Well, I just want to say to that my understanding of the founding of America isn't as simplistic as the founding fathers were evil because X or Y.
00:54:22.000I recognize, of course, that there are incredible complexities to those issues.
00:54:29.000There are probably tons of things out there I don't even know that might change my opinion in the future.
00:54:32.000But with that being said, while I recognize there were fine.
00:54:38.000Bodied, hearted, and souled Americans who recognized slavery was a moral aberration from the get go, one in every six Americans was owned.0.55
00:54:46.000And while that may have been constrained to some of the states, it was still ultimately under the purview of the federal government to make decisions with regards to the legality and constitutionality of that.
00:54:56.000Now, some people they get really offensive in this conversation.
00:54:59.000And I'm saying you guys, but some people they do.
00:55:02.000And I think it's because they think I'm assigning some kind of moral worth to them now or to the country now or making some kind of broad prescriptive statement.
00:55:10.000The only thing I'm saying is when you're teaching history to a bunch of kids, you know, you have to teach it all.
00:55:15.000At least you have to teach the basic pointers.1.00
00:55:17.000And for black Americans, The history of this country has been less than favorable.0.60
00:55:21.000So I think that in the context of that discussion, saying, and to this day, we still have some problems with race.
00:55:27.000There are some legacies of slavery that still affect black people, and we're working on it today, something like that.
00:55:33.000That's a kind of racialization that I'm in favor of because it doesn't encourage stereotyping, it doesn't encourage discrimination, it just encourages a base awareness of some serious problems.
00:55:45.000Is that largely what we're seeing through school districts like Chicago and in Washington, D.C., and The entire California school system, representing 10,000 schools and 6 million students.
00:55:59.000Yeah, is that it doesn't have that kind of nuance and complexity that you just presented, right?
00:56:04.000Where it's, let me just say this, is that part of the kind of archangel triumphant of the wokeism coalition is Nicole Hannah Jones, Robin D'Angelo, and Ibram X. Kendi.
00:56:13.000And Nicole Hannah Jones, in particular, right?
00:56:16.000The all triumphant of the wokeism coalition.
00:56:19.000She heretically says that America was founded on something.
00:56:22.000About what everyone knows is going on.
00:57:38.000Sorry, I didn't mean to miss out on the particulars there.
00:57:40.000The only point that I'm making is that depending on whose lineage you follow, depending on the narrative that you tell, this is a very postmodern idea.
00:57:47.000And I would like to consider myself charitable to postmodernism the idea that there are many ways you can describe the human experience, which I think we all believe to some extent.
00:57:56.000Depending on who you follow, you get very different ideas on what America is, when America was founded, not in a legal sense, but in a conceptual sense.
00:58:07.000Holds the birthrights to which they were entitled.
00:58:09.000And these conversations should be had.
00:58:12.000They're worthwhile conversations to have.
00:58:14.000I've seen some of the curriculums in these schools.
00:58:16.000I find some of them a little bit objectionable.
00:58:18.000But to be perfectly clear, I've found school curriculums objectionable for ages.
00:58:22.000About half of Americans believe in the Lost Cause myth, the idea that the North started the Civil War and it was over states' rights or whatever.
00:58:30.000That's believed by a large number of Americans.
00:58:32.000There are textbooks put out by Pearson in Texas that have the same truth.
00:58:35.000There is some truth to that, by the way.
00:59:25.000And so let me tell you why people like myself are pushing for the bans of the 1619 Project.
00:59:31.000Is that, first of all, it's just not true.
00:59:33.000It is not even charitably, in the most charitable reading, to use a word that you used, even remotely fair to the ethos or the founding of the country.
01:00:01.000And this is an important thing, which is what is education, right?
01:00:04.000So is education where we're supposed to, for third, fourth, and fifth, and sixth graders, open up every single bad idea that's ever been discovered and have kids choose?
01:00:12.000Or are we trying to lead them towards something, lead them towards having better developed character?
01:00:17.000Lead them towards trying to find objective truth.
01:00:49.000An incentive to forever despise other countries that nobody's even taught about.0.65
01:00:54.000Like one I read recently, for example, was that we did mass chemical bathings and I believe it was sterilizations of Hispanic people at the beginning of the 20th century moving up past the southern border because there were like these militias forming in towns near the border and they just did it because they had the de facto support of the local government as a way of discouraging their movement up.
01:01:15.000Now, the numbers involved in that are significant and I feel like, well, that's maybe not great for fourth graders.
01:01:22.000There could be more work done to talk about the faults with this country in addition to eulogizing its.
01:01:28.000The question is, what's the goal, though, right?
01:01:30.000Is the goal to try to have young people graduate by the time of high school to be skeptical, apprehensive, and not very proud of the country, or eventually tell a true and patriotic story where you have people graduating that are thankful and have gratitude?
01:01:45.000That's the purpose of education when it comes through.
01:01:47.000Gratitude is not the purpose of education.
01:01:49.000Well, I think gratitude's a moral necessity.
01:01:51.000No, you should be grateful for the people in your life, but I will never be grateful to the state.
01:03:24.000And I want to get people, I want to get kids interested in the flaws in this country because that teaches them to grow up and care about them so hard they fix them.
01:03:33.000This is a great piece of disagreement.
01:03:35.000We have clarity, not agreement, which is obviously what we want, where.
01:03:40.000I think that we should try to be developing and graduating kids with strong character that want to appreciate and protect a country and to try to be active against forces that wish to deconstruct it.
01:03:52.000Your goal, and we're just not going to persuade each other, is that you want to try to graduate activists that know the flaws and are willing to mobilize to try to fix them or to undo whatever system might be effectuating.
01:04:09.000Of course, I'm a progressive, so I'll say it's good by default, but there are ways to do it poorly.
01:04:12.000I disagree with people on the left constantly.
01:04:14.000Either over issues of actual speech or just not presenting as compelling or engaging.
01:04:20.000I always find something to disagree with people on.
01:04:22.000But what is Charlie Kirk articulating?
01:04:24.000But with all that being said, it's weak.
01:04:26.000I have to wonder is it not the prerogative, and I'm not a scientist to you, of tyrants to make sure that children who graduate from these schools find no fault in the nations they're taught to love?
01:04:40.000I'm not saying no fault, but you could be thankful for something and you can have.
01:04:45.000A holistic view of something and understand that there were stumbles and there were missteps while also being pretty freaking proud of that something.
01:05:36.000Obviously, when we're just looking at the facts of history, I mean, what is it, data and sheets, you know, wrote transcriptions of things people have said?
01:05:51.000Sure, I don't want to stop teaching kids the undeniable things they do.
01:05:58.000The point of a debate is not to build consistency.
01:06:00.000Every day that I worked before I was a YouTuber, I thanked union activists back during the turn of the 20th century who gave us the five day work week, the 40 hour work week, who ensured that we had proper standards for lunch breaks and what have you.
01:06:16.000And they fought and they were whiny, and I'm sure a lot of them had really bad ideas besides the worker activism.
01:06:24.000Do you ever think that as an activist, as a progressive, a libertarian socialist, is there ever a point where the activism actually does much more harm than good and the preservation of what already exists actually should be desirable?1.00
01:06:39.000I would say that's the case with black separatists.0.95
01:06:41.000There are some people in this country, not all of them are black, of course, but who believe that the racial problems between white and black Americans are irreparable and that the best solution would be for black Americans to leave or at the very least to form separate enclaves within the state.0.83
01:06:55.000And that's nothing new, just so you know.
01:06:57.000I don't think that's what Charlie asked.
01:08:13.000If you scrub through, it's literally all vlog.
01:08:18.000So, what I'm trying to caution you about is that the people pushing CRT and the whole debate, they don't have the same sort of nuance that you do.
01:08:27.000These are revolutionaries that want to tear down the system.
01:09:17.000Well, the big problem that I have.1.00
01:09:19.000But keep in mind, that's not wokists running these things.1.00
01:09:22.000What happens is this, and put pretty simply, the majority of Americans broadly are progressive on these issues, support BLM, all these sort of broad cultural markers.0.92
01:09:32.000So, corporations and other large entities think we need to avoid a cancellation, we need to appeal to the business interests of this country.
01:09:40.000We need to do something to ingratiate ourselves to the majority opinion.
01:09:43.000So oftentimes, it's not about ingratiation.
01:09:45.000They manufacture the majority opinion.
01:11:32.000I think these corporations have been infiltrated by highly motivated activists, which you've said the education system, the goal should be to create activists that have really bad ideas.
01:11:42.000And I think they're putting America on a trajectory that I think you are even concerned about.
01:11:48.000Because you said that there are some sacrosanct ideas.
01:12:18.000To be fair, though, I mean, you might have these very, very well thought out views of things.
01:12:23.000You could say, oh, that's indefensible.
01:12:25.000Of course, I don't want to be unreasonable.0.60
01:12:26.000But when you get Mark Milley coming out and talking about white rage, it's like, oh, I thought his speech was lovely.0.68
01:12:31.000It reminded me of those old Chinese philosopher generals.
01:12:36.000But you have people quitting the military over this stuff because they feel like they're.
01:12:40.000I've actually spoken with people who retired because they've been discriminated against on racial lines they don't like.
01:12:46.000And one guy I met said he was planning a lifelong career in the military and immediately got out because they implemented these policies of white racial trainings.0.52
01:12:53.000They were told that the symbols of America are no longer allowed to be displayed in private because they're extremists.
01:13:01.000Okay, well, I can't speak to any of that.
01:13:02.000I haven't looked into the particulars of that.
01:13:05.000The only thing I want to say is that it feels like with Robert D'Angelo, we've seen this pattern in the United States now.
01:13:10.000I don't think it has anything to do with infiltration.
01:13:11.000This is the consequence of gatekeeping.
01:13:13.000This is a debate just between Dave Rubin.
01:13:16.000They know there's some broader political, social, cultural trend happening, and they think, who's someone we could get?
01:13:23.000And if you look up racial sensitivity training on Google or anywhere else, some names are going to pop up, and we know which one comes up first, and they just hire that person because they've got money and they need to spend it before the end of the Quarter so their budget doesn't get cut.
01:13:35.000Do you think that it should be how's the right way to phrase this?
01:13:41.000If a corporation were to tell, say, white employees that they had inherent characteristics based on their race or that they should undergo some kind of course or class based on their race, should businesses be allowed to do that?
01:14:25.000I guess I would defer entirely to that law.
01:14:26.000If it turns out to be unconstitutional, then he added.
01:14:29.000I just want to say, though, that while we are fixating on bad behaviors here, and there's nothing wrong with that, I do maintain my insistence that I think the vast majority of progressives would agree with what I have to say.
01:14:40.000Though, keep in mind, there are always going to be a mix of good and bad ideas with good social movements.
01:14:46.000Even the Civil Rights Act, or the Civil Rights Movement, which we all know and love today, you know, can't deny it.
01:15:10.000And he said a lot of stuff about the responsibility for white people to not make amends, but to educate themselves on the experience of black suffering so that we no longer just integrate.
01:15:30.000To me, a movement which recognizes the racial discrimination, the systemic racism that exists, that there are problems we have yet to overcome.
01:15:43.000So, first, the one thing I wanted to highlight, let me actually pull this up, is that net support, which is support versus opposition, before George Floyd died for Black Lives Matter in this country, was 16% net support.
01:15:54.000As of today, according to Civics, it's 3%.
01:15:57.000That brings it all the way back to 2018, to August 16th.
01:18:27.000He can't argue because his ideology isn't very much different from the people who really fully express themselves in the types of media that have a really strong mix of wealthy and poor.
01:18:36.000I can see that because, again, from where I grew up, I lived on the border of a lot of low income communities.
01:18:42.000Now, Beverly Hills, safest place you could be.0.79
01:18:44.0003 a.m., you want to take a job, go for it.
01:19:24.000He makes a little remark, and then it's just like.
01:19:27.000Okay, let's let Vosh neutralize that relationship between that and the faction.
01:19:30.000But the crime increase seems to be all countrywide, so I don't know if I'd be leaning more towards that being a COVID thing and people being restless and angry.
01:19:40.000The thing that I'm trying to say, though, is when I grew up in Beverly Hills, really, really safe, free from violent crime, I could walk half a mile, though, and the area between rich and poor were the areas where people had barred windows.
01:20:05.000I'm sure we could do that, but apparently, murder actually has a very low default recidivist rate because usually it's done under a very specific set of heated conditions that don't actually speak to a person's character, which makes you wonder a lot about moral worth and what really drives a person to do that sort of thing.
01:20:20.000I think it's something we should look at critically, though I don't have any.
01:20:31.000I'm actually going to triple down on this one, okay?0.70
01:20:33.000Not only do I think that we should aggressively look at the ways our sentencing laws affect and discriminate between black and white people and Hispanic and Asian, I think we should do the same between men and women.0.60
01:20:44.000Because as much as black people are shafted by the criminal justice system, men are even more.0.74
01:20:48.000If you take a look at the disproportionate rates of sentencing, relative levels of implicit bias in the jury, women get off with.
01:21:28.000That Obama extrajudicially assassinated people and nobody did anything about it.0.50
01:21:33.000So now that's black privilege, but that's a joke.
01:21:35.000Don't, but I think that there's an implication in your argument that I want to challenge, which is that just because you're poor doesn't mean you commit crimes.0.78
01:21:44.000I think that's an insult to poor people, right?
01:21:47.000And so I think that if you automatically assume that now there are data trends to suggest that, but instead it should be the question of what are we trying to structurally do or through incentives to either punish the people that are committing crimes and lift.
01:22:19.000Look, if you want funding that goes to police departments to go towards actually looking at the rape kits that they take rather than just delivering to a bin, 250,000 untested rape kits in the tri state area in New York City.
01:22:47.000It's because we were tough on crime in the 80s and we had a massive campaign against it and we had the most peaceful decade in American history.
01:22:55.000The viability of broken windows policing has been challenged substantially, but there are admittedly some benefits.
01:23:02.000The argument that I would make is that what you're really doing is you're forestalling the problem.
01:23:07.000There are socioeconomic conditions that increase criminality, not because it makes people worse people, but just because oftentimes crime isn't some.
01:23:14.000Direct indicator of poor moral conduct.
01:23:16.000Oftentimes it is a crime of necessity or it is a crime born of the discounting apathy.
01:23:21.000Those are not the kind of things that are happening.
01:23:35.000Like they said, they would sometimes peddle drugs.
01:23:38.000And they did it because while they may have been accounted for by the welfare state, their parents' medical bills weren't, not sufficiently, not even close.
01:24:42.000From a secular perspective, you can make the argument that at the end of the day, the things we do are driven entirely by the chemical reactions in our brain, and therefore everything that we do from start to finish is just a Combination of random molecular patterns and blah blah.
01:24:54.000Obviously, I make a choice to get dressed every day.
01:24:56.000We know how this works in practice, but in practice, we are also the product of our environment.
01:25:01.000And the fact that, for example, having a single parent while growing up is a pretty strong criminal indicator is a suggestion that, I mean, is it an indicator of a person's inherent moral worth that they were born with a single parent?
01:26:24.000But the idea that in the welfare state that we have, with the private philanthropy kind of generosity, that shoplifting, arson and looting, mugging Barbara Boxer, That we should just say, you know, it's actually because the environment.
01:26:40.000I don't know why you pointed at me when you said that.
01:27:01.000I thought the crime was sociologically useful because it shows you where the antagonisms are between people's wants and the state's desires.
01:31:18.000Nobody wants the jobs, even when they do increase the salaries.
01:31:21.000So it's true, the flights are an issue.
01:31:23.000But here's what they don't tell you in the news briefs.
01:31:25.000So, stock buybacks, something that many companies now do because of their decriminalization, the airline companies have spent an anomalous amount of their profits each year on stock buybacks to enrich their CEOs and shareholders rather than.
01:31:48.000You see these news stories from time to time where it's like, I raised my wage to 15 an hour and people showed up.
01:31:53.000And it's like, yeah, that is how economics works.
01:31:56.000We had John Schnatter, Papa John, on the show.
01:31:58.000And he told us a story about a pizzeria where they were paying 35 bucks an hour to some of their pizza cooks or bakers because that was the line.
01:32:06.000He kept trying to find people, nobody would do it.
01:32:11.000That means pizzas are going to basically more than double because the wage they were paying before was like 15, and now they're over double what they were paying in labor.
01:33:25.000It doesn't bother me that people are working.
01:33:27.000And you have favorable employment numbers, but you don't have favorable underemployment numbers.
01:33:32.000There are a lot of people who have jobs, but they have like two to three part time jobs.
01:33:36.000They don't get their schedule for the next month until like two weeks before the end of the current one.
01:33:41.000They're constantly worrying about whether or not they're going to make their shifts line up to get enough hours to get the money they need to get to get to the rent and everything.
01:33:49.000And it's untenable, and we are in an era of unprecedented record profits for CEOs.
01:33:55.000So, yes, I think the solution to this, and it'll be a rough one, that's for sure, is we should normalize higher wages.
01:34:01.000Maybe the solution to $15 an hour was never a federal mandate.
01:34:04.000Maybe it was the inevitable economic necessity of incentivizing workers.
01:34:08.000The reason workers are staying home is because they could take on a lot of work.
01:34:11.000I will say that the lockdowns were way too harsh and intense.
01:34:14.000I will say there is a Fifth Amendment argument to be made, though, that if the government forces you to not work, then you should be able to get something in return.
01:34:21.000The government cannot take something from you constitutionally and not pay you for it.
01:34:25.000That's the eminent domain argument, right?
01:38:00.000I really want to get into the Marx thing because I'm super fascinated by it.
01:38:03.000No, I just want to say, you know, the theory, I mean, put simply, I guess, is that human society, the human project, it evolves as a product of antagonism, grinding antagonism between people in Marxian view.
01:40:24.000This debate has been an unmitigated disaster.
01:40:27.000What I live in would have been incomprehensible to them in every imaginable sense, every conceivable way.
01:40:32.000But their arguments for the permanence of society then would have been better than mine today because they would have lived in a stable feudal society.
01:40:44.000And today, I now am here using technology that would have been alien to humans 20 years ago.
01:40:50.000I think about, like, the Cultural Revolution, the Cultural Revolution.
01:40:54.000I think about the revolution in Russia.
01:40:57.000And you mentioned that conservatives tend to be more fearful.
01:40:59.000And I think there's history that shows us things can go wrong.
01:41:02.000Liberals will show technology that's not great, that's probably better, and then end up with an unchecked movement that results in millions dead.
01:41:11.00020 to 40 million, I think, in the Cultural Revolution.
01:42:14.000It always feels like everyone argues, like this is the best it gets, and any future steps would be treacherous.
01:42:20.000But then we always make that next step.
01:42:22.000I don't know if America is going to be around forever.
01:42:24.000We're a young country, and countries far older than ours have fallen in the lifetime of America.
01:42:30.000So, I can't look at what we have today or the people that I live with or the values that I believe in and assign to them a feeling of permanence.
01:43:03.000It's devolved from where we had these interesting pieces of art to just regurgitated craft form over them.
01:43:08.000Can I just take some exception with your argument?
01:43:10.000First of all, there is this kind of revisionist belief that somehow conservatives, in the traditional sense, were against some of those social movements, which is just not true.
01:43:19.000I'm not saying you'd be a Confederate.
01:43:21.000And I'm not even getting to the party switches.
01:43:23.000But there is a direct lineage between hyper focusing on racial politics in the 1860s and the 1920s and some of the people on the American left that are just completely obsessed with American politics.
01:43:38.000Well, back then, the slave owners wouldn't have been like, I'm really obsessed with race or equality.
01:43:43.000You know, now, I mean, obsession with race can be pernicious in many ways, but I think there's a pretty big difference between being obsessed with the idea of racial equality and being obsessed with the power of the law.
01:43:52.000I think it's equally as pernicious, just they don't have the power to implement it.
01:44:48.000Charity, generosity, integrity, faith to your creator, the ability to pass down good and moral values to the next generation, one that believes in work, and one that believes in the cause of the nation above the self.
01:46:11.000And to me, the problem with this is that when you get down to it, this thought process, this mentality, it drives men to do terrible, terrible things.
01:46:19.000Because interpersonally, all of the chemical effects of empathy kick in.
01:46:23.000I look at you, I see you, but you start bringing in concepts like the nation.
01:48:07.000So that's a natural rights doctrine that I will defend.
01:48:09.000Well, I mean, I like consciousness too.
01:48:11.000The only point that I'm getting at is when it comes to people's freedom and the ability for people to protect their freedom, this is what I care about.
01:48:56.000The greatest society is one where a man is born and there are as few things as possible preventing him from doing whatever he wants for the rest of his life.
01:49:39.000So where do you get those limits from?
01:49:41.000Well, obviously, you would probably have to have a pretty complex, interlocking legal system to determine what we agree upon as like a Reasonable limits we can place on people's behavior.
01:50:25.000Eventually, you do agree that a conservative framework is necessary.
01:50:28.000But I don't think that's a conservative framework because there are other things I care about that you would always disagree with, like collective ownership of the means of production.
01:50:55.000I'm kind of interested in what you think about it.
01:50:57.000I think humans are inherently destructive by nature, and that if you took a human and put him in a room with a bunch of small animals and plants, over time, his hunger, purely because of hunger, ultimately, he would destroy and consume all of those animals and all of those plants.
01:51:12.000And then if you put another human in there, one of those would eventually destroy and consume the other human.
01:51:17.000I do think that we are inherently exposed.
01:53:18.000And then afterwards, if we still have time permitting, I would like to do the member segment and then personally be more involved than I've been for the most part.
01:54:00.000I understand people's discomfort with abortion.
01:54:03.000I think that unfortunately it's a legal necessity as a byproduct of some very compelling personhood arguments I've heard in the past, which I would have to read up on again before reciting.
01:56:00.000But if you're talking about things, if it wasn't for me, this is all that you would ask.
01:56:05.000This is what there are other legal concerns as well.
01:56:07.000But this is an issue that I think I'm.
01:56:10.000Well, I always support a pro choice argument.
01:56:13.000The philosophy behind it is something I'm a little more open to.
01:56:16.000So is it more on the size of the being, or the level of development of the being, or the environment of the being, or the degree of dependency?
01:56:30.000The degree of dependency is legally worthwhile, but for consciousness, I think it's more about it being an emergent property of experience.
01:56:38.000So is it okay then if we just basically pull the plug on all the people that are kind of comatose and cucumbers on machines?
01:56:44.000They really don't have self consciousness and they're very dependent.
01:56:47.000Well, I mean, legally we do believe that because if you have.
01:57:24.000Camilla Mamani says WTF, a libertarian socialist, is like a meat eater vegan.
01:57:31.000Libertarianism was actually a left leaning ideology.
01:57:33.000The people asking the questions are room temperature IQ, the people answering them are like room temperature IQ.
01:57:38.000Actually, before that, libertarianism was exclusively in the purview of socialists, and I believe what they believed that freedom is the greatest human good as long as it doesn't infringe upon others, and that the best way to achieve that freedom is through democracy.
01:57:51.000We have political democracy, flawed as it is.
01:57:53.000Economic democracy is something we should also strive for.
01:57:56.000I'll tell you this the left libertarian quadrant is the hardest quadrant to be in.
01:58:02.000You have the only persuasion tactics, if you're a left libertarian, which exists, you're basically saying, I like socialism, now I have to convince people that it's the right thing, and they'll agree with me.
01:58:29.000No, just want to say, for what it's worth, there are some people who call themselves socialists who I actually think would agree probably more with you than with me.
01:58:35.000Like people who support China, for example.
01:58:37.000China's not socialist, it's a rampant capitalist state.
01:59:30.000Yeah, I mean, man, it's, I'd say the way we do elections in our country is definitely up there.
01:59:36.000Big tech is massive, immigration is huge.
01:59:40.000But I think even something more fundamental that I was trying, I think we almost achieved it tonight, which is that we're about to tear this country apart.
01:59:46.000And I think dialogue is something that is so beautiful and is so complex.
01:59:51.000And almost spiritual in nature, that if we don't have dialogue with people that you fundamentally disagree with, then there's really not a middle ground until you start ripping each other apart.
02:00:24.000At the end of the day, there's a big difference between the problems we're told to care about and the problems we're willing to fight about.
02:00:30.000And I'm not entirely sure if I know where those lines are, but I know there's a difference.
02:00:34.000With regards to what I'd care about, for me, it has to be climate change.
02:00:37.000I know a lot of people roll their eyes at this stuff, but you can take a look at the polar ice caps.
02:00:41.000You can take a look at the weather disasters we've been having, increasing both in frequency and intensity.
02:01:05.000The video I made before the actual Green New Deal, talking about how we needed a Green New Deal, and then AOC's Green New Deal was like equity and college and healthcare, and then the botched FAQ.
02:01:17.000I was like, I'm talking about why are we spending money on war when we could be researching green technologies and more efficient energy, thorium salt reactors, things like that, get fusion to ignite.0.57
02:01:27.000Instead, we get this like racial equity garbage bill.0.75
02:01:33.000I do like the Reno Deal, but I had this problem too with that Teachers Union Board, the one that affirmed CRT, said they're going to support it.
02:02:08.000We should have a class, a philosophy class, where you learn about critical race theory.
02:02:12.000Teaching it in practice to children is a different idea.
02:02:15.000So, I actually, in response to my absolute failure in giving you the adequate response in our last conversation, did pull up Critical Race Theory by Kimberly Crenshaw and actually read what she was talking about.
02:02:26.000And I think the idea of the oppressed versus oppressor in race is a horrible thing when we're trying to get away from that.
02:02:32.000And I had a conversation with an actual racist recently.
02:02:35.000And the ideas to me are absolutely nonsensical to base things on race.
02:02:39.000Coming from an actual racist who was advocating for the same things in that book, I was like, So you're happy with the stuff?
02:02:44.000Like, well, no, because the wrong side's in charge.
02:02:46.000And then I had to explain to them, I do not see the world the way you do.1.00
02:02:49.000And he says, Well, that's the trouble with race mixing.
02:02:51.000And that's, and then, no, but that's exactly, this is what I see when I talk to people who are in favor of critical race theory's core ideology and white nationalists.
02:03:00.000They tell me the same garbage in different ways.
02:03:02.000Look, I have always been a firm supporter of the idea that the ideas should be what's criticized, not like the people who make them.
02:03:09.000Sometimes, for example, people will make fun of me because I talk on class issues and I'm from Beverly Hills and I accept the jibing.
02:03:25.000The only thing I wanted to say, because I have to move back like six points here, is that with regards to the teachers' board, yeah, you spoke on, and the Green New Deal, I sometimes feel like the left is a little bit bad when it comes to mixing all their causes.
02:03:38.000If they, speaking of separatism, If they kept things a little bit more stringent, a little more focused, maybe they could get people to agree on some of it.
02:03:45.000But if every push for climate change is also every other progressive note, and every push for racial equality is every other progressive note, it feels like it's like an all or nothing package.
02:03:55.000And I think that can put some people off.
02:03:56.000I wanted to just clarify quickly and to inject my id poll, as you mentioned, you know, Candace Owens would do it.
02:04:02.000And a lot of people are always mentioning, you know, Tim Pool mentions he's mixed race.
02:04:05.000And I'm like, maybe that's why you'll understand when people are writing like whiteness this and people of color that.0.96
02:04:10.000I'm like, I don't exist in that world.
02:04:12.000Because I've been discriminated against by all of these people.
02:04:15.000And when that person said to me, you know, the perils of mixed racing or race mixing, he's talking about me personally, saying, I don't understand the tribalist worldview of racialists and identitarians because I've never experienced what it means to be in a racial tribe.
02:04:29.000And that's why I love the classical liberal view of opposition against racism, judging people based on the content of their character, not the color of their skin.0.65
02:04:37.000Because I see this world that's being built critical of whiteness.0.68
02:04:58.000For the progressives to come out right now and claim civil rights and say we did all these things and then tell me I now face that detriment, I'm like, you know what, man?
02:05:06.000My grandparents, civil rights activists, race mixers, my actual parents also mix in races and stuff.
02:05:12.000And I'm like, I can now look at the progressives who are putting a detriment on my life and insulting me no matter what I do.
02:05:19.000And the white nationalists who vandalized my home as a child.
02:05:22.000And it's the world that you're taking credit for that you're trying not to put in detriment for people like me.
02:05:28.000It could, to me, be a matter of perception as well.
02:05:31.000I've read a lot of academic critiques of whiteness, which isn't white people.
02:06:06.000When I read stuff like that, it's interesting stuff, you know.
02:06:08.000I don't think of this as all men are bad, all masculinity is bad.
02:06:11.000It's more of a salient critique of certain cultural trends.
02:06:14.000Now, the problem that I have is essentialism.
02:06:17.000Some people will take this on both the left and the right, and they'll think of it as an individual critique, which it should never be used as.
02:06:24.000If I were to say something like, imagine I'm reading MLK back in 19.
02:06:28.000That's kind of ironic, don't you think?
02:06:29.000MLK had some things to say about white people back during his era.
02:06:32.000He would say that, you know, the whites of this era were.
02:06:34.000Or when we say something about black people, it's predetermined public.0.59
02:06:51.000Well, massive group stereotyping that's been done by every civil rights movement to have ever existed.
02:06:56.000Maybe the issue isn't the stereotyping so much as the way it's being applied and used.
02:07:01.000If the stereotyping is, I notice there's a big difference in abolitionist thoughts between white and black people in Southern America, in 1852.0.99
02:07:11.000Maybe that's the kind of stereotyping that can be used for good.0.84
02:07:14.000Also, stereotyping by definition is assuming characteristics of an individual because they're part of a group.
02:07:19.000That's close to what MLK was saying when he said white liberals.
02:07:22.000You wouldn't apply it to an individual, though.
02:08:43.000Nasho Nabo says Vosh is a black person who grew up in majority white areas.
02:08:47.000Those conversations are very demoralizing to be a part of.
02:08:50.000I don't doubt your intentions, but it's best to speak to people affected by your ideas before trying to implement them as our white savior.
02:08:58.000I don't appreciate the white savior critique because that's just the opposite end of id poll, isn't it?
02:09:03.000Saying that I'm less inclined to talk about these issues because I'm white.
02:09:06.000Like, that's kind of like the opposite thing.0.93
02:09:10.000But with regards to like the implementation here, obviously, like social problems like this, addressing them is going to be contentious no matter what.
02:09:19.000I don't know if there's a way to do this, to fix any problem, even the most obvious problems.
02:09:22.000Today we think slavery, obviously that's bad, but.
02:09:33.000I have to balance that concern with the hope that people are more accepting of these issues.
02:09:40.000A good example of that would be like gender stuff, for example.
02:09:43.000In terms of like, if you look at it generationally, from boomers to Gen Z, Gen Z people are like 30 times as likely to know a person who identifies as trans or non binary or whatever.
02:09:54.000And for that reason, conversations on those subjects have become significantly easier just because people have been exposed to the concept.
02:10:27.000And some people have pointed out that in a conversational format, you are both less.
02:10:33.000Less derisive and divisive in your arguments.
02:10:38.000All YouTubers should be nice in my streams.
02:10:41.000So here's an interesting and kind of specific question.
02:10:45.000Joshua Alley asks Should courts decide cases based on rule of law and precedence, or decide each case based entirely on rationality and morality?
02:10:58.000Precedence definitely matters, especially in the American system.
02:11:03.000And The idea of the whole third branch of government really kind of came into question with Marbury versus Madison, with the first Supreme Court Justice of the United States, John Jay, I believe, who was one of the co authors of the Federalist Papers.
02:11:16.000Precedent is important, but it's not everything.
02:11:17.000And this is a super important thing that conservatives need to talk more about, which I think you would agree with, Vosh, is that precedents can be really bad.
02:11:35.000In law, basically, for many decades until it was eventually reversed, largely because of the Brown versus Board of Education.
02:11:41.000But precedent also is helpful so that you don't turn the courts into another legislative branch, right?
02:11:48.000So the courts are supposed to be very unique and they're supposed to be deliberative, process oriented, say no to more cases than they say yes to.
02:11:57.000And so the question is where do you strike that balance?
02:12:00.000Alexander Hamilton predicted that it would be mostly based on public opinion.
02:12:05.000Judges are still people too, and they're going to look to public opinion.
02:12:08.000This goes to more of a Democratic argument than a Republic style argument.
02:12:12.000I will defend precedent more than overturning, but I definitely think the court has gone wrong in a variety of different decisions in the last 60 years.
02:12:21.000And I think that what happens is you have very activist decisions, and then they decide not to look at it again under a conservative belief of precedent.
02:12:30.000I think I would lean more towards precedent.
02:12:32.000You have more than 15 minutes to discuss.
02:12:33.000Sorry, as well, though maybe for a different reason.
02:12:36.000I think it's because we need accountability.
02:12:38.000The problem is, if judicial decisions are entirely at the discretion of the judge, it becomes very difficult to correct legal trends through anything other than appoint better judges, which can be an incredibly long standing process.
02:12:52.000I mean, you don't know everyone's opinion on everything.
02:12:54.000That being said, I do think that to an extent, judges are legislators.
02:12:59.000This is actually a critical legal theory perspective, which fed into CRT the idea that within the bounds of discretion, judges will almost always side with the political biases they have.
02:13:11.000And that's not like a dig on any side.
02:13:14.000That judges who identify as liberal or conservative will overwhelmingly side with each other in the plurality of cases because our biases do it.
02:13:20.000What is even the argument that we have to recognize that's a reality?
02:13:24.000But we do have to constrain the process through judicial precedent.
02:13:49.000But it's like, how did you get that wrong?
02:13:51.000Unless somebody's like screen grabbing it.
02:13:53.000Hey, listen, after the Twitter trending title descriptor had to spend like six weeks in a row describing everything that happened with those Minecraft. YouTubers.
02:15:40.000It's like if you can't think rationally and be able to determine good ideas from bad ideas in the empirical, I'm not going to even get close to teaching you about the allegory of the cave or the ship or Plato's Republic or the forms.
02:15:51.000So I think there's actually something to that, that if you introduce philosophy too early, you can create kind of one liner philosophers that think they understand the entire world.
02:16:01.000And it really goes to that expression the more I know, the more I realize how little I knew when I thought I knew it all.
02:16:05.000That's kind of that idea of daring to know.
02:16:08.000People should not be taught philosophy.
02:16:10.000A scientist who worked in the Manhattan.
02:16:11.000People should be taught to obey the state and shut up and eat from their troughs.
02:16:19.000This is what happens when you teach people philosophy.
02:16:21.000I'd love to talk to you about religion.
02:16:22.000Just like where you think that fits into a functioning discipline.
02:16:26.000This would be really, really interesting.
02:16:27.000The only people that should learn philosophy will be the members of the second division.
02:16:32.000And for everybody who super chatted, I know I really wish I could get to every single question and comment, but when you guys, we ask a question and you guys have that debate, that's the point of this.
02:16:41.000So, you know, I. Try to do as many as we could.
02:16:44.000I just thought it was better to let you guys talk instead of constantly trying to just cut off the actual discussion and the flow of things.
02:16:49.000So, my apologies to everybody who super chatted.
02:16:51.000But if you go to TimCast.com, become a member, we are going to now have another conversation, which I don't believe will be up by 11 p.m. this time because debating religion, I absolutely love the religious conversations we've had on this show on TimCast IRL.
02:17:56.000People are pointing out, like, They don't even have you don't have to agree with anyone here, just the fact that we're having conversation is like the spirit of freedom, yeah, man.
02:18:05.000Except for me, except for the guy that's on the no fly list that's on our FBI investigation and banned from everything.
02:20:08.000This is the discourse, this is the political dialogue.
02:20:11.000Tim Pool, John Doyle, Elijah Schaefer, Avash, Charlie Kirk.
02:20:18.000It's very enriching, and we're all glad that everyone is having conversations.
02:20:22.000We're just glad to be having the conversation.
02:20:26.000Can I just say, excuse me if I may, apologies if I'm interrupting, but if I may, can I just say that I am so flabeeping impressed that we're sitting around here talking to each other civilly, even though we disagree?
02:22:59.000He's a popular streamer and rapidly growing, but an amateur one.
02:23:03.000And so, you know, it's interesting because Vosh getting on Tim Pool, it's a big opportunity for him.
02:23:09.000And the debate with Charlie Kirk in itself confers credibility on Vosh because Charlie Kirk is a conventional and a high profile political actor.
02:23:18.000Charlie Kirk is an ally of former President Donald Trump.
02:23:26.000So, Charlie Kirk agreeing to debate Vosh, appear on the same debate with him in itself, legitimizes Vosh and elevates him.
02:23:35.000I don't know that Charlie Kirk is as or even more popular than Vosh.
02:23:39.000I don't know if he could get a Comparable live stream audience on the internet.
02:23:43.000He may get a comparable radio audience or listenership on a podcast, but the demographic cohort is different that would follow him on that medium.
02:23:52.000So I'm not saying that he's as popular or more popular.
02:23:55.000I'm saying that in terms of legitimization, he comes from a more conventional and legitimate political background.0.75
02:24:02.000So already by agreeing to come to the table, it benefits Vosh.0.67
02:24:08.000I don't know that there's a big benefit from Charlie Kirk other than.
02:24:12.000He becomes part of this conversation on this medium for a younger audience and for a different audience than he's used to.
02:24:22.000Charlie Kirk is seen as an establishment actor.
02:24:25.000I mean, people look at him and they see a conservative partisan.
02:24:29.000But the Tim Pool show and debating with Vosh, it's generationally different.
02:24:35.000And it's also sort of like part of the political realignment that's been happening since the 2016 election.
02:24:42.000So, Charlie Kirk, by inserting himself, does legitimize Vosh, but at the same time, It also might change people's perspective on Charlie Kirk, and maybe they see him less, again, as a conservative or Republican partisan and more as, I don't know, maybe they see him as a young voice with maybe something different to say.
02:25:03.000So he has an opportunity to change people's expectations or their perception of him.
02:25:07.000So that's what I'll say right out of the gate.
02:25:09.000That's why it's interesting to have that matchup because they're not similar.
02:25:55.000I think he had a very good command of the facts.
02:25:58.000And so that debate was kind of interesting.
02:26:00.000But, you know, from the beginning, although it was more confrontational and although it was more combative and although Charlie Kirk was more aggressive, from the get go, he was conceding lots of ground.
02:26:10.000And this is what I've always said about conservatives they always do this.
02:26:14.000They will always concede far more ground than they need to.
02:26:17.000In other words, you know, the point of a debate is that two opposing sides opposed to one another, meaning differentiated.
02:26:25.000And opposed on the key points, come together to clash and argue their sides.
02:26:31.000The purpose is not to achieve a resolution, the purpose is not to build a consensus.
02:26:36.000The purpose of having two opposing sides meet and exchange ideas and have a crosstalk is so that the audience, the moderator is there so that there can be a sort of clear exchange, but the purpose for the audience is so that people can hear and discern for themselves which arguments are more compelling.
02:26:59.000And then they will decide where they fall along the spectrum.
02:27:03.000Do they agree totally with one side or parts of the other side?
02:27:08.000And conservatives, what they will do is they will, in an attempt to build consensus, an attempt to be agreeable, they will move their position so that it is less differentiated from the opposing side and it's not as opposed to the other side.
02:27:26.000They'll moderate their position because they think that if they show up with a more moderate position, that they, as a personality, will be more appealing to the audience.
02:27:36.000So it's really not about the debate of the ideas, it's really more about the rehabilitation of a personal brand.
02:28:04.000And so Charlie Kerr came into the debate, and did he say the vaccine is deadly and you shouldn't get it and it doesn't work and they're lying about it?
02:28:12.000He came in and said, Well, I think you're a good guy, and I think you have good intentions, and I think we basically agree.
02:28:18.000I'm just saying that I don't think I should get it.
02:28:20.000And you always hear this kind of stuff.
02:28:32.000I don't disagree with the status quo that much.
02:28:35.000I just have a small contention with it.
02:28:37.000The problem with this, in particular, for conservatives is that all, all, Communication platforms are pushing for the opposite pole.
02:28:47.000All social media, all of mainstream media, and the traditional television networks, radio stations, and newspapers, and print, and the think tanks, and so on, and the government bureaucracy, they're all pushing for the left wing position.
02:29:01.000The left wing position that's all the way over there.
02:29:04.000And conservatives say, well, I'm going to minimize my opposition to that.
02:29:09.000I'm going to stake out the smallest, least controversial position possible.
02:29:26.000Let them find something moderate to agree with.
02:29:29.000But you have got to give them the full conservative case.
02:29:32.000You've got to argue the full right wing case and a compelling right wing case, an alternative view of the world, not a contention with the world as it is.
02:29:41.000And this fundamental misunderstanding is why the whole debate was a catastrophe.
02:29:50.000The whole debate was about trying to appease the other side, trying to come across as moderate, trying to minimize our opposition to the world as is.
02:30:01.000And Charlie Kirk, if he's articulating this worldview about Aquinas and Aristotle and Augustine and about Christianity and about life and traditional marriage, that worldview is completely opposed to the world as it is.
02:30:15.000It's not, well, we just believe in traditional marriage.
02:30:17.000No, our whole worldview is different, our whole view of humanity is different.
02:30:23.000The problem, though, is that Charlie Kirk just says those things because they're popular now.
02:30:27.000That's not really his real worldview, and his talking points are not up to date.
02:30:31.000The talking points about race essentialism or racialism, the talking points about the welfare state, the talking points about all this stuff, it's not updated.
02:30:40.000It's not brought up to speed with the ideology he claims to now profess because this new line about America's our home and actually I think that everyone should put the nation before the individual and so on, these are just things that are in vogue to say now.
02:30:58.000The scaffolding is still there from the old Prager U turning point ideology of socialism sucks.
02:31:03.000So the guy doesn't even have the vocabulary.
02:31:06.000The guy doesn't have the understanding.
02:31:08.000It's obvious to defend his new worldview, his profoundly new worldview, profoundly different new worldview, which is more conservative.
02:31:38.000If you watch a Tucker Carlson monologue or maybe even a Tucker Carlson debate or an interview with somebody disagrees with and compare it to this performance, it's a bad Tucker Carlson imitation.
02:31:49.000And honestly, in terms of substance, that's what was wrong with all debate.
02:31:53.000But before getting into that, I first want to say, broadly speaking, this is the problem with these debates conservatives don't go into them trying to create a compelling alternative vision for America.
02:32:07.000And when I say alternative, I mean truly alternative.
02:32:11.000Radical and shocking, but something that is resonant with people, but resonant in a way that is different from the liberal worldview.
02:32:19.000Don't appeal to the liberal notion of empathy or equality or things like that.
02:32:25.000Appeal to the right wing notion of excellence and discipline, maybe martial discipline and greatness and these kinds of things, Christian virtue, tradition.
02:32:36.000You have to appeal to something different because you're arguing an alternative worldview.
02:32:43.000Instead, conservatives go in and they're trying to rehabilitate themselves in the eyes of the enemy.
02:32:47.000Instead of going in and saying, I'm a conservative, I'm owning it, and I'm going to make everyone in here a conservative, they come in and say, I'm going to make these liberals think I'm not so bad.
02:32:59.000They don't go in and say, I'm going to defend conservatives, I'm going to prove I'm a conservative, and I'm going to make the case for the conservative worldview and I'm going to own it.
02:33:09.000They go in there and they say, I want to look good in front of everybody, I want everyone to like me.
02:33:25.000Going back to the point of the debate, if the point of the debate is to make the best possible argument for your side, for the opposed side, that's not even what they're trying to do.
02:33:36.000So certainly they're not going to be able to do that.
02:33:41.000And on a purely tactical level, it's a total failure because.
02:33:46.000I'm sure if you had a stopwatch and you just measured how long people were talking, Vosh probably talked for three quarters of the whole debate.
02:33:54.000For the whole runtime of the debate, Vosh was talking for at least the majority of it.
02:34:50.000You know, when you are trying to make your case, this is just strategic.
02:34:55.000You want to use every moment that the camera is on you, every moment that the microphone, that you have the microphone, and every word that you say, every syllable out of your mouth is advancing your worldview.
02:35:06.000It's framing the conversation from your perspective.
02:35:11.000You know, so even that's why going on the defensive is a bad tactic because if you're going on the defensive, what are you doing?
02:35:18.000You're arguing the other person's worldview from their frame, but just from a different perspective.
02:35:28.000If Vosh goes in and says, you know, well, I think you're like a fascist, you're like the 1930s, and Charlie Kirk says, well, no, I'm not, and here's X, Y, and Z, Y.
02:35:35.000Well, what's the positive claim that's being argued?
02:35:51.000That's why in presidential debates, people get annoyed by this, but the moderator asks a question and the candidate will say, Well, that's a great question, but really, I love America, and this is my five point plan.
02:36:31.000And so, Charlie Kirk not using time, not claiming time, passing his time off, using his time to answer rebuttals, using his time to ask the other person a question.
02:36:40.000What do you do when you ask the other person a question?
02:37:48.000It's one thing to take pieces, which can be effective, but a wholesale, you know, a wholesale imitation, a wholesale impersonation, very off putting, you know, because it becomes uncanny.
02:38:03.000People recognize it, it's familiar, and you're never going to be.
02:38:07.000As Tucker Carlson, as Tucker Carlson, so it comes across as insincere.
02:38:13.000So, you know, all across the board, it's a disaster.
02:38:19.000You know, in the first place, because of the tone and the attitude that was taken, it's a disaster because of the use of time, you know, the amount of time and the use of time and the asking questions and everything.
02:38:32.000The tone that was used, the kind of, you know, personal affect that was put on was terrible.
02:38:39.000And there was one other thing I was going to say about the overall sort of style of it.
02:38:46.000But then on the substance, the problem is this conservatives don't actually have a compelling alternative.
02:38:53.000The Charlie Kirk conservatism, it's really the same socialism sucks with a new coat of paint.
02:39:00.000It's the same socialism sucks, free market, limited government, fiscal responsibility, but they painted over it Trump 2024 and Tucker Carlson and all this shit.
02:39:12.000So it's the same, you know, become a victor, not a victim.
02:39:15.000It's the same root and tooting, constitutional, you know, slavish defense of America.
02:39:20.000But I'm going to drop some things here and there for based points.
02:39:26.000No elaboration on that, and nothing that he argued would indicate that he feels that way, but it's something that is just said now.
02:39:33.000And well, we need to have allegiance to the nation.
02:39:36.000Again, nothing that he argued would indicate that he feels that way, but it's just something people say now.
02:39:41.000That's another thing that Tucker Carlson says.
02:39:44.000And what's more, the whole ideology is it's the same multiracial working class populism, it's the same repurposed GOP sludge to fit Trumpism, to fit.
02:40:32.000Because it's too white, it's too racist, it's too provocative, it's too polarizing.0.67
02:40:37.000So we're going to take it, we're going to submerge it in a vat of Heritage Foundation solution, and out comes multiracial working class populism.0.67
02:40:44.000And now we're going to have a think tank run by an Indian and a Chinese man talking about American greatness and Teddy Roosevelt.0.52
02:40:50.000And where does American greatness come from?0.94
02:40:52.000It comes from the middle class, it comes from class, it comes from manufacturing, it comes from productivity, it comes from economy.
02:41:00.000We're economic nationalists, not white nationalists.
02:41:13.000And that, I mean, ultimately, that is representative of what the whole right wing is doing.
02:41:18.000That's what all of populists think is trying to do.
02:41:20.000It's the same bullshit with a new coat of paint.
02:41:23.000Let's try and repurpose this, you know, GDP worship.
02:41:27.000Let's try to repurpose what wasn't working before, what was a messaging deficit, what they think, and we'll just change the messaging.0.58
02:41:35.000And so it's the same race blind, anti racist, anti wokeism, rugged individualism, but we're just going to call it working class populism instead.
02:41:45.000Instead of telling, instead of saying blacks, lift yourselves up by your bootstraps, we're going to say something like, you know, blacks are being hurt by illegal immigration too, and we need opportunity zones, or, you know, some other thing like that.
02:42:09.000They both want a GI Bill for all the N words and S words.0.78
02:42:13.000They both want a new GI Bill for all the poor.0.81
02:42:16.000And if it happens to include white people, well, that just means it's about class and not race, and all the better.0.59
02:42:21.000But they fundamentally agree, and they fundamentally agree on lots of this stuff.
02:42:29.000So it wasn't just the Tucker Carlson personal affect and style, it was the whole Tucker Carlson, you know, half loaf, you know, crumb from the whole loaf of what we actually believe.
02:42:44.000It's not just Tucker, it's not just Charlie doing the Tucker Carlson face, but also saying things like Tucker Carlson would that white replacement is a voting rights issue and it's not about race.
02:43:18.000Half baked working class multiracial populism plus the fucking neocon China warmongering.
02:43:25.000So it literally is a Steve Bannon agenda.
02:43:28.000It literally is a Steve Bannon, you know, neo neocon agenda, which is repurposed economic bullshit plus renewed hawkishness, this time against China rather than Russia because Bannon's funded by a Chinese billionaire in exile.
02:43:45.000And because the right wing is still hawkish, right?
02:43:47.000They're still neocons, it's a new war.
02:43:49.000Not against Muslims, it's against Chinese, Chinese socialism.
02:43:55.000So it's the whole thing was just a joke.
02:43:57.000The whole thing was just an absolute total failure.
02:44:04.000The problem with this is not just that it's not new, the problem is not just that it's insincere, the problem is not just that it's the same failed ideology repackaged.
02:44:12.000The problem is they're not articulating a real vision for America.
02:44:17.000You know, what we're really talking about here is a conflict of visions.
02:44:25.000And Vosh is motivated by a vision of America.
02:44:34.000He knows why he's waking up every day.
02:44:36.000And his vision of America, we don't like it.
02:44:38.000We would say it's bullshit, but it's tangible, it's aspirational, it's inspirational.
02:44:44.000And so when he talks about we need to educate people about the problems in America to create a class of activists to radically change America, that's a vision.
02:44:54.000We're going to create green energy and create new jobs and sell it to the world.
02:44:57.000And we're going to, you know, all this kind of stuff.
02:45:00.000That's a real vision that can possess people.
02:45:03.000What's the vision articulated by Charlie Kirk?
02:45:06.000Well, I actually want to preserve things.
02:45:08.000Don't you think things are worth preserving?
02:45:50.000And what America is, they don't like and they don't believe in it and they are ashamed of it and they're apologizing for it and they don't want it to exist.
02:45:58.000You know, when Charlie Kirk says, Well, Vermont abolished slavery in 1777, you know what, like, Harry Truman said about blacks?
02:46:42.000And certainly, if you talk to the reason that they didn't put in place miscegenation laws or got rid of them, miscegenation laws meaning outlawing the marriage of blacks and whites, it was because they thought that it was so obviously wrong and so shameful that the social ostracism was so strong that they just didn't need the laws.
02:47:06.000Abraham Lincoln, who were, according to this debate, according to the mythology which underlies both of the debaters' worldviews, Abraham Lincoln allegedly fought the war to free the slaves.
02:47:17.000Abraham Lincoln said that if he could bring the Confederacy back into the Union without freeing one slave, he would do it.
02:47:23.000And Abraham Lincoln himself said that he never thought that blacks and whites should live on this continent with full legal equality, full legal and political equality.
02:47:30.000None of the founding fathers believed that.
02:47:32.000And none of the American presidents believed that.
02:47:35.000And no American political leaders believed that.
02:47:37.000I mean, you know, generally speaking, for centuries.
02:47:41.000So, and again, that's not to say that I feel that way, necessarily, but it is to say that.
02:47:48.000You know, this slavish defense of the liberal, this propositional nation idea and everything but name.
02:47:53.000Charlie Kirk now says America's a home, but yet he still is making these arguments that America's a creedal identity, that America is a creedal nation.
02:48:42.000And where did they get these ideas from?
02:48:43.000Well, the Magna Carta, and they got them from Rome, and they got them from Greece, and they got them from our civilization, from the mother of America, from our mother civilization.
02:48:54.000And none of these people actually think any of that is worth defending because they are perfectly willing to define that down to melanin and say that the greatest thing about George Washington is that he was a humanitarian.
02:49:07.000That's not the greatest thing about George Washington.
02:49:09.000He was one of the greatest statesmen of world history.
02:49:14.000The achievements of the founding fathers were that they forged a nation, that they were exceptional thinkers and leaders, they achieved excellence.
02:50:29.000Convince people to care about your civilization enough to die for it and work for it and expand it if you can't even affirm it, if you can't even stand by it.
02:50:39.000You know, the most that a Charlie Kirk would say is, well, we've made mistakes.
02:50:54.000You have to be a chauvinist, you have to be a nationalist, you have to be an imperialist.
02:51:01.000So, I mean, Charlie Kirk's ideology is a liberal ideology, which is really, I mean, Marxism succeeds liberalism.
02:51:10.000You know, it's like when Charlie Kirk says, well, we're not teaching fourth graders about Gramsci in the same way that we're not teaching fourth graders about Euclidean geometry, but we teach them math in the same way.
02:51:20.000You know, Charlie Kirk is a fourth grader talking about anti racism, and Vosh is the collegiate level.
02:51:27.000You get the liberal enlightenment, and then you get the postmodern Marxism.
02:52:38.000Because Vaporware, which was during the 80s and 90s, were these wonder products that were advertised but never came out.
02:52:47.000And Vaporwave music is a play on that.
02:52:49.000It's a play on the consumerism of the 80s and distorting it.
02:52:54.000And it's supposed to be reflective of the promise of the American dream, the promise of America, the wonder of America, but that never materialized.
02:53:54.000Everything is terrible and it's getting worse.
02:53:57.000The people that hate us and hate what we're about are in power and can make our life miserable.
02:54:01.000And it's just not really worth fighting for if that's all there is to it, which is, I mean, why are we going to stand up to the American empire?
02:54:07.000Why are we going to fly through the Death Star Trench?
02:54:10.000And drop the proton torpedo into the exhaust port.
02:54:37.000I'm not saying I'm pro Hitler or anything, but what do you think people see in that?0.51
02:54:42.000It's obviously not something I endorse.
02:54:44.000It's something that's foreign, it's something that was cataclysmic for the world for a variety of complex reasons, but people look at that, and what do they see?
02:54:54.000They see a reactionary alternative to communism.
02:55:52.000I'm not in favor of this, and he could describe it as so called totalitarianism.
02:55:57.000I'm not in favor of the strong authority.
02:55:59.000I'm not in favor of the secular religion of the state.0.93
02:56:03.000Certainly not in favor of the ghettos and the concentration camps and things like that, obviously.
02:56:08.000But when you look at that, and it's important to consider this, that is a compelling reaction to communism and liberalism, which there is just no such other thing.
02:56:21.000The trajectory of Western civilization since the French Revolution has been towards liberalization and ultimately towards communism.
02:56:30.000And it's been towards this suicide of our civilization, rationalized by liberalism.
02:57:54.000And these things are, you know, it's irrespective of whether you think it's right or wrong or the morality of it or the consequences of all of that.
02:58:03.000We're talking strictly in terms of, you know, we're analyzing political efficacy.
03:04:49.000Spinefish says I failed to clarify this during your stream this morning, but I think your baseball telegram post was powerful because it was a picture of yummy food from your box seat.
03:04:59.000It had an energy reminiscent of the Trump picture with that big Philly cheesesteak on Air Force One.
03:06:37.000Vitus says Kirk was clearly trying to ape your rhetorical style at the beginning of the debate, but choked and fell back into his old debate tactics.
03:06:44.000A lot of people want to be like you, but don't come close.
03:08:21.000Mac Man says, All the lies on history, slavery, race relations.
03:08:25.000Holocaust, etc., from tonight's debate.
03:08:28.000I don't think they brought up the Holocaust.
03:08:30.000And in general, our black pillings, since this is what most Americans know, with all the lies and the obfuscation our generations have been subject to, I'm starting to think even slavery wasn't real.
03:13:04.000Last night says, Well, Nick, it's been a pleasure watching you, but after that Suckfest, I'll be killing myself after watching Fat Gay Retard interviewed by Charlie Kirk.1.00
03:14:05.000And when you really get into the weeds about correcting these historical wrongdoings, it belies the point.
03:14:10.000The disparities will always remain, cannot be solved.
03:14:14.000Panic King says, You'd figure with all that Heritage Foundation money, Charlie Kirk would pay to have that asteroid sized mole cried off his face.
03:17:00.000Fire Rises says the YouTube channel, Politically Provoked, is trying to reach out to you about a big debate with you and Destiny.
03:17:05.000I know they've been very, very annoying about it, you know, because they talk to my assistant and they email me and they talk to us and then they super chat us.
03:17:15.000And, you know, I don't know, I guess it's just not happening fast enough or whatever.
03:17:19.000But, you know, at some point, it's just disrespectful.
03:17:23.000It's just disrespectful to keep antagonizing somebody.
03:17:26.000At some point, it's just antagonistic.
03:17:28.000So we're well aware they're interested in hosting the debate.
03:20:07.000After I got banned on Twitter, I tried to reach out to them.
03:20:10.000I back channeled, and they literally were like, no, no, we're not going to have him on because if we have him on, his audience will be mean to us.
03:20:29.000Ben says From one Catholic to another, I wanted to ask you, what future do you see for our church following the reduction in its believers?0.80
03:20:35.000Do you think we will die out or do you think there will be a rebirth?
03:20:39.000Well, we're never going to die out because the church is eternal.
03:20:44.000So, I mean, that's just not going to happen.
03:20:46.000As to whether or not the church will become strong again, I mean, I don't know.
03:20:56.000I'm not really familiar with the prophecies because there are different prophecies, and some say we're on our way out, and some say there's going to be another golden age of the church.
03:21:03.000You know, depending on, I think there are different outlooks on it.
03:22:10.000This is what I'd be wrong in saying World War I was really the downfall of the dominance of traditional society with the collapse of the last major traditional European monarchies.
03:22:23.000Yeah, I mean, that was definitely an inflection point for sure.
03:22:26.000I mean, that ended the balance of powers period of peace.
03:22:32.000And you could say that that was the last gasp of the.
03:22:35.000Conservative monarchical powers in Europe, the last gasp of the kingdoms, the triumph of republics and democracies and all of that, industrialization and so on.
03:22:47.000But really, I mean, that was underway for the last century, you know, for the last two centuries, really.
03:22:54.000So I don't know that that was necessarily the downfall.
03:23:01.000It was maybe the nail in the coffin, you might say, but it had been a long time coming.0.69
03:23:07.000Overman says, also, you made a great point about the shallowness of the economic working class, but would you consider Kirk of that group?
03:23:16.000I always considered him to still be libertarian since he refuses to see the country as his family, unlike Tucker.
03:23:25.000Tucker sees it in an analogous way as his family, with the state as the father, but he doesn't see the country as organic, as a community or a nation, because he thinks it's all about voting and buying and selling.
03:23:37.000You know, this working class populism, that's the point I'm trying to make.
03:23:41.000It's not a far cry from libertarianism because it's concerned with the same thing.0.88
03:23:46.000You know, it's bound up in the same thing, which is producing and consuming.
03:23:50.000Because class is an economic identity, so it's an economic identitarianism.
03:23:54.000You know, in the same way that libertarianism is preoccupied with class and economic freedom and all of that, you know, the populist nationalism is concerned with class and economic well being and all of that.
03:24:08.000That it's just more nationalistic, but it's ultimately the same thing.
03:24:14.000Big Nigga says, Going to Chicago tomorrow, anything cool to do besides eat food and the big metal bean?
03:24:21.000Yeah, you should go on one of the boat tours if you want to go on a tour of Lake Michigan or the Chicago River, those are really fun.
03:24:32.000But it's a food city, you can't really skip out on the food.
03:24:37.000You want to get an Italian beef sandwich, you want to get a Chicago hot dog.
03:24:42.000You can get the deep dish, but that's really kind of a tourist thing.
03:24:46.000But you should get pizza while you're here.
03:24:49.000And you really can't go wrong, but the Italian stuff, that's kind of those are the winners.
03:24:54.000But yeah, I mean, you could go to Navy Pier, you could do touristy type stuff, you could go to the neighborhoods, go to the Lincoln Park Zoo, go to the Brookfield Zoo, go to Michigan Avenue.
03:25:42.000I don't really have much to say about it other than that, other than I like it.
03:25:46.000I haven't listened to it in a while because I don't have it on my Spotify, but I don't like that most of it is in Japanese because I can't rap with it.
03:25:58.000There's really only one verse that you can really even enjoy.
03:26:02.000The production is very good, of course, and the lyrics are really good on that song.
03:26:07.000I don't know why more people don't like it.
03:26:09.000Probably because it's mostly foreign language, but that's a good one.1.00
03:26:12.000Fart Patrol says your analysis of Vaporwave and 2015 16 hit hard.
03:27:46.000Kansas Zoomer says the debate may have been terrible, but at least I got to spend the evening watching America First, my favorite internet program starring Nick Fuentes, who is my favorite host and my friend.
03:29:12.000I mean, I'll, uh, if I have something to say and in the appropriate forum, I'll speak my mind, you know, but, um, I'm not one of these guys that's like so autistic.1.00
03:29:22.000Like any mention of politics turns into blood sports, you know what I mean?0.91
03:29:30.000I kind of, uh, if it's an appropriate time, I'll offer my opinion and we'll debate, but I'm, um, I'm not one of these people that's like looking everywhere to get in the, Getting a scrap.
03:29:46.000Tralt says Charlie Kirk better be watching your stream and taking notes.
03:29:49.000Your critique of his debate performance was spot on.
03:29:51.000Well, hey, 07s and Chad, thank you for the big super chat.
03:30:09.000I literally can't tell you because I don't even know that they know.
03:30:12.000But people literally watch my show, steal all my talking points, and then go and republish them and then say, oh, you can't hang out with Nick Fuentes.
03:30:20.000But they all watch my show and they all steal my stuff.
03:33:02.000I'm so tired of the fakers, the fakes, and the frauds, and the lies from these fake cells.
03:33:10.000You know, Kai Clips in the gym, and he's got all these muscles, and he's going on dates, and he comes in the live chat and says, Hey, I went on a date, but you know, I'm probably going to break up.
03:38:21.000Mr. Linens, what do you think of this idea of redirecting sexual energy and anger in a creative output?1.00
03:38:27.000I think that's to say that out loud, I think it's extremely gay and retarded.1.00
03:38:33.000Shawsby says if Kirk had half a brain, he would have brought up examples such as JJ knowing about asbestos in their products when Vosh mentioned trusting the motive of the workers over the higher ups.1.00
03:38:44.000Yeah, I guess he could have said that.
03:38:46.000John Freeman says, Ayo, Captain Jack, bring me back to the railroad track.