00:03:06.000This was reported in Liberty Conservative, USA Today.
00:03:09.000Some of the things that were going on.
00:03:11.000But I wanted to have you on, and I got a little bit of criticism for having you on and Spencer on Nationalist Review.
00:03:17.000But I wanted to have you guys on because this is a conversation that needs to happen about the right and about our plans for what's going to happen in the future.
00:03:25.000I think we all agree on the core political tenets, but now the conversation needs to be had what do we do moving forward?
00:03:32.000So, first and foremost, I want to give you a platform on the White Lives Matter stuff.
00:03:37.000Just give me your reaction, and I know we wanted to take it in a very specific direction.
00:03:43.000In terms of like counter signaling in general.
00:03:45.000So, just for people that are a little bit skeptical about WLM, just like give us your reaction here.
00:03:52.000Okay, now I understand that people did have some issues with some of the presentation and some of the optics coming out of that.
00:04:01.000I'm actually, I'm not here to fight about that or disagree.
00:04:04.000I understand, believe me, I understand those issues and I understand the points that people were making.
00:04:09.000I don't think it was kind of entirely a loss, though.
00:04:12.000I think there was a couple of good things that came out of it.
00:04:14.000One is which, White Lives Matter as a slogan, I think, is a good slogan.
00:04:20.000I think it's a useful slogan, and it got a conversation going on Twitter that went beyond maybe some of the less presentable optics that came out of the rally itself.
00:04:31.000And that's good because White Lives Matter, to me, is the kind of slogan.
00:04:36.000Like today, we have these posters going up to say it's okay to be white, and you're getting all these leftist SJW types counter signaling that on Twitter.
00:04:45.000And so you get white people being like, hey, wait, what the heck is that?
00:04:49.000Like, What do you mean it's not okay to be white?
00:04:58.000Also, calling attention to the Antioch, Tennessee church shooting where a Somali migrant had shot two whites in the church there, which was a story that was buried by the media for reasons that we're all familiar with.
00:05:11.000They don't want to call attention to crimes against white people committed by people of color, and particularly economic migrants like Somalis or those that are sort of taken by the State Department.
00:05:24.000Much of it under Hillary Clinton's direction and placed into white communities.
00:05:28.000Like they actually, we have these government departments that deliberately look at census data.
00:05:33.000They see what are the whitest communities in the country, and we need to move some Somalis in there or some other kind of migrants in there because we need to diversify these communities.
00:05:43.000These communities are a little bit too happy.
00:05:46.000So the media is on board with this anti white agenda, and they don't want to call attention to this kind of thing.
00:05:51.000So those are two things that were good that came out of it calling attention to that and getting the slogan of White Lives Matter trending.
00:05:57.000Now, I understand some of the disagreements that people have had with some of the presentation of some of the individuals or groups that were there, and I understand that I don't really want to fight about that, though.
00:06:07.000I just, I'll leave it at, I understand the concerns.
00:06:19.000I think it was a great hashtag because those kinds of messages and that kind of messaging about white identity, I think, appealed to regular people who understand that whites are under attack in the country.
00:06:32.000You know, the regular guy, the regular GOP guy in the Midwest or the Northeast or anywhere else in the country who, you know, from millennial to boomer, Who understands what's going on?
00:06:44.000They see the reaction that it creates and they come to our side a little bit.
00:06:48.000Here's where I think it was a negative.
00:06:51.000And we'll move on to counter signaling in general, but I think it's important just to distinguish some things here.
00:06:57.000I think that would have been a really great positive.
00:06:59.000And I'm not going to ask you to disavow.
00:07:01.000I'm not going to put you in a position where you're going to take a dump on people that you rallied with and people who you're connected with and who you're in the movement with.
00:07:10.000But I think the double edged sword there was that it was a great slogan, it was a great message.
00:07:16.000And in the eyes of a lot of people, it was almost like tainted by bad optics.
00:07:36.000You know, James asked me about Gainesville or about Charlottesville 3.0.
00:07:40.000And it's just difficult for me to cheerlead and, you know, and not give my full opinion.
00:07:45.000And that's sort of where I wanted to pivot onto this conversation about counter signaling in general, which is.
00:07:50.000You and Eli Mosley and others in sort of this alt right sphere, you have this policy of not wanting to counter signal anybody that's pro white or not wanting to condemn or disavow anybody that's pro white.
00:08:05.000I understand where you're coming from because of all the forces arrayed against us that are anti white and want to see conflict between us and want to see our message get muddled.
00:08:14.000You know, I understand that strategically, but I guess my question to you and my first little like dig here, my first question is.
00:08:22.000Like, what exactly do you see as a consequence of counter signaling?
00:08:26.000Because I hear this all the time don't counter signal, do it internally, don't do it publicly.
00:08:31.000And, like, I hear where you're coming from, but I just want to know, like, what are the consequences of the public counter signaling that makes it anathema?
00:08:39.000Well, I think there's a few different issues.
00:08:40.000One is that, I mean, you mentioned before that there was coverage in USA Today.
00:08:47.000There was coverage, there was in the Tennessean coverage of the conflict over White Lives Matter and a few other mainstream sources.
00:08:53.000And to some extent, I think people see when we get that kind of media coverage that says, oh, the alt right is once again infighting.
00:09:04.000And we all know that the enemies of our enemies and the mainstream media is most definitely arrayed against us, likes to see what they perceive of at least as division of the ranks.
00:09:15.000And they want to exploit that, maybe drive that wedge further.
00:09:18.000And on some level, it's a matter of pride.
00:09:22.000You don't want to look foolish in the eyes of the media.
00:09:24.000A unified front or a seeming unified front is stronger than.
00:09:29.000A strong way to present to the public and to the enemy in the mainstream media than to appear divided.
00:09:35.000There's another issue, which is that of opportunity cost, which is that these battles internally can get.
00:09:41.000I mean, it's sort of like you always hear this stuff about academics, like academics that generally agree with each other fight bitterly over tiny little issues.
00:09:51.000You can see it even in the leftist world.
00:09:53.000You see these sectarian Marxists, and they fight bitterly over this one passage that Marx wrote or something, and it's totally inconsequential to the greater thing.
00:10:04.000To spend a lot of energy doing it is an opportunity cost.
00:10:07.000Like, you have an opportunity to point your energies in a direction either towards a positive message or going after anti white elements in the media and the mainstream politics and things like that.
00:10:19.000Like, you could why attack us when you could be attacking, you know, Hillary Clinton or something like that, right?
00:10:27.000It's a matter of opportunity cost, it's a matter of not putting yourself in a position to be embarrassed by the mainstream media.
00:10:34.000And also, to the extent that if you want to, if there is something like you feel that some group has done that's embarrassing or it doesn't look right or it's not the style you want to be associated with, you kind of associate yourself with it by not ignoring it.
00:10:51.000So it's like, I think it's sort of like if you thought something was humiliating or looked really bad, it's better just don't talk about it.
00:11:06.000So that's kind of my thing there on why I don't counter signal.
00:11:11.000And look, a lot of it also comes from experience because I've been doing this for several years now.
00:11:15.000And believe me, we have had our bitter, bitter internal disputes and rivalries and conflicts.
00:11:21.000And in the end, when we started to just let it go and just focus on what we were doing and focus on our message and focus on attacking the left, attacking the media, we found that we were just happier people.
00:11:36.000So that's my argument for not counter signaling.
00:11:40.000Or not, it's not so much punching right.
00:11:41.000It's just because I think part of the idea that people have with the no punching right slogan is like it's like you don't want to hurt any other group that's pro white.
00:12:42.000Nobody should be condemning Nazis on the right.
00:12:44.000And the reason I said that after Charlottesville was because you had Antifa, you had the government, you had all kinds of forces that colluded to do very pernicious, bad things.
00:12:54.000And for anybody in the Republican Party to waste their breath on quote unquote Nazis or quote unquote white supremacy was wasted.
00:13:01.000And like you said, that opportunity cost.
00:13:03.000And at that point, I would have agreed with you on counter signaling.
00:13:06.000However, where I evolved on that a little bit was.
00:13:11.000Charlottesville was one thing, but then we had Charlottesville 3.0, and then we had Gainesville, and then we had the White Lives Matter rally.
00:13:19.000And after all these different demonstrations I saw, it's really problematic that there are, like you yourself, have been part of these rallies, these demonstrations, these public events that have not gone well.
00:13:32.000And, you know, whether people think they were strategic victories or not, I think the optical failures in those different parts are really hurting the movement.
00:13:41.000And so I guess the question I would pose to you is do you think that optics is one of those things that should be hashed out?
00:13:49.000Because you brought up the Marxists and sort of that.
00:13:51.000That arrogance of the small details, you know, between the professors and that sort of thing.
00:13:55.000But do you think that optics is a semantic detail that should be ignored?
00:13:59.000Or do you think at this point it's a conversation that needs to be had and it needs to be public and it needs to be hashed out?
00:14:07.000I think it's a conversation that can be had and I think some of it can be public, but I don't think all of it needs to be public.
00:14:15.000Like, I think if you want to say, like, you know, I think there's a line in terms of what should be public and what should be private.
00:14:21.000And I think, like, if you really think like this, I don't think that if you honestly think that something was a failure and totally just a mess, I'm not saying that that hasn't happened, right?
00:14:36.000You know, I actually probably disagree with your assessment on some of these events, but I don't know that arguing that, see, like, we could get into an argument right now on your show about the success or failure of any one of these events, but would that be really good radio?
00:15:31.000And look, and I'm not saying that all those events were perfect or there's no criticism to be had because, look, on some level, you know, I'm actually relatively new to activism publicly.
00:15:40.000Like, I've been doing my show for a couple of years and I was doxxed and I've been doxxed for about nine months now, 10 months now.
00:15:48.000And I started doing public activism about three months after my doxx.
00:15:51.000So I've really only been doing it about six months.
00:15:53.000And I'm not saying there haven't been any blunders or there haven't been any mistakes.
00:16:14.000And, you know, you say it's not perfect.
00:16:16.000Some of them, it might be more productive to bring those criticisms up in private.
00:16:20.000But I think the merits of the public criticism, I think the merits of the public conversation is that at a certain point, it becomes a liability to associate with these things and to an extent, not.
00:16:34.000Like, I'd never, I don't think I disavowed at any point the people that were there.
00:16:38.000I disavowed people that were criticizing me about criticizing the optics, but at no point did I say the people that showed up were bad people or, you know, not well intentioned.
00:16:50.000And I think at a certain point, that is like the minimum that we can do.
00:16:54.000Like, we are, we're trying our hardest not to disavow, we're trying our hardest not to call those people out like the media does, like other people do.
00:17:03.000But when you see NBC who says, These are white nationalists.
00:17:10.000And a regular person who may watch NBC, who may be susceptible to our message or might see that retweet, says this is the anti refugee, like white advocacy crowd.
00:17:19.000Then it becomes a little bit of a liability, and the public becomes a way to define those differences.
00:17:25.000And I'll tell you, and let me know what you think about this, because I think this is an interesting development.
00:17:30.000Hunter Wallace wrote an article for Occidental Dissent, and he came after me, and he came after D'Amigo, and he said, you know, we were wrong and all that.
00:17:39.000But what I did find interesting was he talked about how there's this distinction between the alt right, which is you and Spencer, and kind of peripherally me and James Alsop, and he was a part of the hard right.
00:17:52.000He called it with League of the South and the Nationalist Front and the Traditionalist Workers' Party.
00:17:57.000And what do you think about that kind of labeling?
00:18:00.000Because I think that could be really productive.
00:18:01.000We could say, like, we're not hard right.
00:18:04.000And I think that would spare us from the counter signaling drama if there wasn't that association, right?
00:18:10.000Like, if we could say they're technically, maybe they could be associated with us as, like, in this big tent, like, fringe right category, but hard right and alt right are separate.
00:18:21.000And we could just write it off as, we're not hard right and we have no comment on that.
00:18:25.000Like, do you think that's useful going forward?
00:18:29.000I mean, I hadn't seen that, but that kind of makes sense.
00:18:32.000I don't know if you want to pigeonhole yourself as fringe because the whole point of this is to not be fringe, right?
00:18:37.000I mean, so, I mean, yeah, but no, I mean, I think that that's totally fine.
00:18:44.000I think that, but I would, one thing I would point out to you is think about on some level the amount of energy that you're spending on this question, generally speaking, and probably the amount of energy you spent over the last.
00:19:08.000Like right now, look, we just had a terrorist attack.
00:19:11.000We had a Muslim do another truck of peace in Manhattan.
00:19:15.000And we saw the predictable reactions from the left.
00:19:17.000We saw the predictable reactions to the media.
00:19:19.000I think the time right now is better spent.
00:19:22.000You know, we can do the optics debate and it's worthwhile.
00:19:25.000But also on your show, you know, the America First, you should be talking about.
00:19:30.000The diversity visa lottery, the truck of peace, the left's reaction, you know, like that is a much better use of your time, I think, than focusing in on this and focusing in on kind of these internal conflicts.
00:19:41.000And if you can, if you being able to say, well, that was kind of like a hard right event and I'm not really part of that, so I don't really have anything to say on that, I think that's a totally useful approach to take.
00:19:53.000Yeah, no, and I think that's a really positive development because me and Hunter Wallace and James Alsop and Hunter Wallace have had, Kind of a contentious adversarial exchange on Twitter.
00:20:03.000But I think that was a positive development overall because it eliminates that liability aspect of it.
00:20:10.000It eliminates that responsibility aspect where we feel kind of obligated to not counter signal because the United Front is important.
00:20:18.000But at the same time, it hurts us in other capacities that, in the eyes of the media and other people, we are technically in the same group.
00:20:25.000So I think that that was a positive development.
00:20:28.000And on the optics, I think it's just a really important thing.
00:20:31.000And I just want people to understand, like, It's not like I don't think you guys are well intentioned.
00:20:37.000And even at White Lives Matter, I mean, I know a lot of people said it was a class thing, and I understand that.
00:20:41.000Like, I try my hardest, and sometimes it's not always good enough, not to criticize lower class people who are frustrated and express it in that way.
00:20:51.000You know, we don't want to criticize people's intentions or their character or the fact that they're willing to show up to defend their country.
00:20:58.000And that's where I completely understand the not counter signaling.
00:21:01.000But by the same token, I see people like you and Eli Mosley and Spencer who are really putting it on the line, putting your butts on the line.
00:21:08.000And resources and going to all this work to do these things.
00:21:12.000And it's like little tweaks that just drive me crazy.
00:21:14.000That, you know, for example, at Gainesville, if like Spencer had a podium, I think the optics would have gone up 100%.
00:21:21.000If at Charlottesville 3.0, they didn't do tiki torches and maybe they did some other, I don't know.
00:21:28.000I would have to think in the logistics of that for an alternative.
00:21:32.000I see those little things where it's just so simple and it's just so frustrating.
00:21:36.000It's hard to sometimes keep it contained.
00:21:39.000And sometimes I think it's good to just say, you know, look, this is a great movement.
00:22:05.000It wasn't decided against or for, but also, you know, a thing that's important to remember about that is that the Gainesville event, we walked into, and look, feel free to criticize us for this if you like.
00:22:17.000We walked into something we weren't quite expecting.
00:22:20.000Okay, when you walk out on a stage and there's 300 screaming Antifa and people of color, blacks, Hispanics, and then rabidly anti white whites or perhaps international people, it's a little bit difficult.
00:23:11.000But it's sort of like we had to go through that in order to understand that this is now a tactic.
00:23:17.000This is sort of like Richard and I discussed this, and Richard said, we had all these possibilities in mind of what they would do, and we countered them in this way and that way.
00:23:27.000And the one thing they did is the thing we didn't quite expect, which is pack the auditorium with people that were going to yell for two hours straight and not stop.
00:23:37.000And, like, I didn't think they would have the energy for it.
00:23:40.000So, given that, it's like now we know that that's something that they are going to do or could do.
00:23:46.000And we're going to have a plan, you know, in the, you're going to have an arrow in the quiver for that one.
00:23:53.000And when we get criticism from people that were observing it from their computers at home, that's helpful.
00:24:01.000Because then it's like, well, you know, because we were like, we walked out of there, like, yeah, we really took it to them.
00:24:05.000Like, we had this, we had this, we went up there and we stood, we withstood that yelling and screaming and we withstood all these hostile questions and we stood up there and we took it and we spent every minute of the time that we had allotted and we didn't run and we stood up to them and that's great.
00:24:20.000And then people like, it looked ridiculous because it looked like you were just screaming into mics because we didn't know, you know?
00:24:35.000That's good to hear because I know a lot of people got up in arms about, and I think it's a little bit different too the Shelbyville and the Gainesville.
00:24:43.000I think that's, you know, those are obviously very different events and very different criticisms and very different, you know, optics types going on there.
00:24:53.000But I guess that just gets to my fundamental point and the fundamental criticism that I have of the alt right, of people like Spencer and even of yourself and of Eli Mosley is.
00:25:04.000The rallies, in and of themselves, in my opinion, they invite a lot of chaos.
00:25:09.000They invite a lot of unpredictability.
00:25:11.000I think that's just the nature of the rally as an operation.
00:25:14.000When you have a lot of people and it's a public event and it's difficult to turn people away, and obviously we saw it's difficult to control the contingencies, even of people that show up, you know, the fellas that shot at the protesters.
00:25:29.000And, you know, we know they weren't associated with IE or with any of you guys, but it's just one of those things.
00:25:34.000It gets out of your control at those mass events.
00:25:36.000And that's why after Seaville, after 3.0, after Gainesville, I just started to think to myself, I just don't see the tactical value in the rallies.
00:25:46.000So, beyond the fact that the rallies could have been done a little bit better in terms of, and like you said, it's a learning experience.
00:25:53.000I don't blame you guys for walking into it and having that crazy contingency.
00:25:58.000That's the nature of these rallies, unpredictable things happen.
00:26:01.000And we are a sort of new political movement, so we're still finding the ropes a little bit in that regard.
00:26:07.000But my broad criticism is even if done right, and maybe you can explain this angle of it.
00:26:14.000How does the rally, how does the college speaking tour, how do these IRL activism events, and particularly the rallies, what do you hope to achieve from them?
00:26:25.000Like, is this supposed to move the dial in the public consciousness?
00:26:28.000Is this supposed to, I mean, and I talked to Spencer about this earlier today, like, what is the getting from point A to point B on where we need to go?
00:26:36.000Because I see the rallies, I see the optics, and it just kills me because I think this will hurt anybody that's trying to run for office.
00:26:43.000This will hurt anybody that's trying to, Win an election, and I see that as the only way to move forward in terms of getting policy passed.
00:26:51.000So, if you could, you know, just explain to me, like, why do you do the route?
00:26:56.000And I hope this doesn't come across as like, I'm coming after you, this is a gotcha question.
00:27:03.000I think that that's an interesting question, and it's sort of like, on some level, it's one that a lot of people might not have considered.
00:27:10.000But I have put some thought into this because the same thought has crossed my mind as well, which is sort of like, if you were just causing public chaos.
00:27:55.000And frankly, in order to get the policy through, like my main thing is that if we're going to be pro white and we're wanting the U.S. government, we're wanting pro white policies to be passed, one way or the other, we have to change the game.
00:28:09.000We have to get the idea that there's pro white advocacy is acceptable and normal into the minds of the public.
00:28:18.000So we're like the idea that we would sort of.
00:28:21.000Maybe if I'm wrong, if I'm pigeonholing you or strawmaning you, feel free to tell me.
00:28:25.000The idea that we would do this in a way that is not confrontational, it is like allowing everyone to remain in a comfort zone or to not even realize that it's going on and just get something passed, get something through.
00:28:39.000I just don't think it's going to happen.
00:28:41.000I feel like we have to raise awareness that this is a struggle that's happening.
00:28:45.000The current system is anti white and there's a pro white movement, there's a pro white backlash.
00:29:28.000And they typically, they've now increasingly been saying, Like things that I've done in the recent past, or that Richard's done in the recent past.
00:29:36.000A lot of people have said I was red pilled by seeing Richard's speech at Texas AM.
00:29:43.000Some people said they got red pilled after they saw the Auburn event that we did.
00:29:47.000Hell, some people said they're red pilled by Heilgate.
00:29:52.000So, you know, there are these people that come over, and now maybe that's, you know, we can't quite judge is that a fringe outlier, and most people are turned off.
00:30:05.000That people will get turned off from pro white politics is a little bit overblown.
00:30:10.000One, I don't think there's a single Trump voter that is not going to vote Trump because of anything the alt right does.
00:30:15.000I don't think that's ever going to happen.
00:30:18.000I also don't think that those people that are inclined to come over to pro white will necessarily be deterred by anything that they think is too extreme or too far or potentially things that aren't good that happen.
00:30:31.000And I think also the rally, despite some of the bad stuff that happened, I think that Charlottesville had a huge effect on the national.
00:30:40.000Debate in the national consciousness, and that alone is worth it.
00:30:42.000And then, even the unfortunate incidents with the car accident and the way the media treats that is a way to highlight.
00:30:51.000Basically, what we want to do is we want to highlight and expose the anti white nature of the establishment.
00:30:57.000And doing these rallies and facing the kind of suppression that we face, I think, does in a way lend itself to that, as well as doing things like flyering in propaganda campaigns and things like that, particularly when.
00:31:10.000You post messages that are simply pro white and you get attacked for being evil and hateful.
00:31:17.000And the unfortunate thing about Charlottesville is that because the whole thing was sabotaged, we weren't able to speak and we weren't able to give our speeches.
00:31:25.000And then they could just brand us hateful without letting us speak.
00:31:28.000But the free speech issue, the fact that free speech is under attack, but only when you're going to say pro white things I mean, these are the issues that we're highlighting and bringing into the public consciousness with this kind of public activism.
00:31:42.000That is a solid answer because for a long time I've been looking for that answer and genuinely searching for the answer to the rally question because I think people have this perception of me that I've already made my assumptions, I've already made my decisions.
00:31:59.000I was legitimately wondering what the answer is, and I'm glad that you shed some light on that because I think there's a lot of merit to that.
00:32:08.000The idea that we have a pro white movement in America, there's pro white politics.
00:32:13.000And highlighting the anti white agenda of the establishment.
00:32:18.000My opposition to the rally in general is conceding all of this, conceding that that is a worthwhile goal, conceding that we want that to happen, conceding that raising consciousness of white identity politics is a good thing.
00:32:33.000I think rallies hurt those ends rather than help them.
00:32:36.000Or if they help them, they do so less than they hurt them.
00:32:39.000And I'll tell you what I mean by this.
00:32:41.000If Richard Spencer showed up to Gainesville, for example, And he was in, and I talked about this on Twitter, and he was in a navy suit, red tie.
00:33:02.000It always has been, and we're under attack.
00:33:04.000And he was getting yelled at by Antifa.
00:33:06.000He was getting yelled at by these people.
00:33:09.000I think that would have achieved the objective of raising the consciousness for white people.
00:33:13.000I think the alternative happens, or rather, a different effect happens when you show up with the European stuff, when you show up with the National Socialist stuff, when you show up with this confused message that to me it just looks like a lot of chaos.
00:33:26.000It just looks like a lot of, and you've said this before, you know, the planning could have been better, and these things are getting better.
00:33:55.000I talk to Generation Z people who are prime opportunities, prime and fertile breeding ground for alt right politics, who are.
00:34:03.000Disenfranchised, disenchanted whites who are sick of feminism.
00:34:07.000And I'm talking about first, second, and third wave, sick of the anti white agenda, sick of the trade deals, this anti white agenda that's come crashing down on this generation.
00:34:18.000And I talk to them and they look at Charlottesville.
00:34:20.000They see the white shirts and the khakis.
00:34:29.000I mean, they're realizing there's a white politics and at the same time they're being turned off to it.
00:34:35.000And Maybe there's like this accelerationist angle that, you know, we will come to a point where more radical things will become appropriate and that'll enter like the normal Overton window of politics.
00:34:48.000I see things like the postering where it's a simple flyer and you control the message and it's concise and it's clear and it's four words tops and it's straightforward and that gets all kinds of crazy coverage.
00:34:59.000I think that's better than when you have a massive 1,000 person rally and you get one guy with a Nazi flag and it's over.
00:35:06.000Or you got Charlottesville where you have three different slogans it's unite the right.
00:35:10.000You will not replace us, and something about monuments.
00:35:13.000I just think my two pronged criticism is at once the rallies are not focused on their messaging, and that is hurting them.
00:35:22.000And at the same time, I don't think you ever can sufficiently control the messaging for those to work.
00:35:28.000And so, I mean, do you understand where I'm coming from on that?
00:35:32.000Like, I'm conceding a lot of what you're saying about white consciousness, but I just disagree with the method to achieve it.
00:35:48.000And it's kind of also something that we're going to need to wait and see on because, as I've said, I'm going on a little break from activism for a few months.
00:36:25.000We see things like a new article I saw, a headline I saw on Twitter the other day was, Today's millennials, today's white millennials are more like white people than millennials.
00:36:52.000Some of them maybe undermined the message rather than promoted it.
00:36:57.000But in terms of Charlottesville, I think that also the immediate effect of it versus the long term effect of it is going to be different because I do think that Charlottesville was that mass polarizing event that said to the world, we are here.
00:37:13.000We are not here in a trivial number that can be laughed at anymore.
00:37:16.000And they stopped laughing because for a very long time, the pro white movement was simply an object of mockery.
00:37:48.000I didn't like the hats or whatever it might be.
00:37:52.000Ultimately, that position of comfort from which you can evaluate that or not evaluate that is not going to be an option because you're going to be like, I can't send my kids to school.
00:38:35.000And I think having a break of activism over the winter to evaluate and get new people and see what they think, I think that's a good thing to do, you know, and maybe come back in the spring and see what we're going to do.
00:40:26.000And, you know, I will still, when people ask me what's going on, you know, I'll tell people my misgivings about rallies without counter signaling.
00:40:33.000And, you know, me and James are going to take it in a more political direction in terms of, Political activism.
00:40:39.000Like, I don't want people to think I'm saying no rallies, no nothing, nobody do anything.
00:40:43.000Like, you know, it's just a different kind of activism that we're advocating for.
00:40:47.000So, no, I think that is a good place for us to reach where we can both understand that, you know, we don't know the effect of the rallies totally.
00:40:57.000And I said this in all my criticisms of the rally is, you know, in the short term, we have a much different picture in our heads of what this is going to look like in the long term.
00:41:05.000Maybe Charlottesville will be looked back at in 50 years as the moment that it all started, you know, as the moment that the revolution started, or it could be looked at very differently.
00:41:58.000But I think moving forward, the question is do we take this more rally, elevating the consciousness, meta politics approach, or do we take the political on the ground, you know, filling out ballots?
00:42:09.000And they don't have to be mutually exclusive, but I do think that at times they may contradict each other.
00:42:13.000So, no, I mean, I think dual strategies have to be pursued.
00:42:18.000And I'm more a meta politics guy, I'm more a narrative building guy, and frankly, more of a radical where I can go out.
00:42:25.000And be a radical in public, whether speaking or whatever.
00:42:29.000I also think one thing I will say is that one thing we agree on is free speech is an important value.
00:42:35.000And free speech is a quintessentially American value, and it's one of the few values that's held sacred in America anymore.
00:42:42.000And almost every American, real American, understands this and values free speech.
00:42:47.000And if we can actually go out and show ourselves being victims of suppression of free speech, because most white people in the United States.
00:42:56.000Ones that are not completely gaslit and brainwashed by the anti white media, the anti white intellectual establishment, the anti white academic establishment, etc., will agree, hey, I don't have to agree with it, but these guys have a right to speak.
00:43:08.000So if we go out and, hey, we can do these in a controlled way where we don't get wild cards, we don't get crazy events, and just take it for the team, go out there, speak our minds, and get suppressed, like allow them to come down on us.
00:43:34.000But I think part of the postering, we talked about the postering briefly, and I've talked about postering campaigns, and I gave some advice on our show, which is that what you want to do is you want to put out a pro white message and then watch the left go into action because they will.
00:43:49.000You put pro white posters on a college campus and say, like, white families have a right to exist.
00:43:55.000Like, you know, it's okay to be white, as the ones that went up today.
00:43:59.000And then you watch the anti white administration, they're calling meetings.
00:44:03.000You know, they're bringing people in for diversity training.
00:44:05.000They're doing all this stuff that turns people off.
00:44:08.000And they're like, what the hell is this?
00:44:09.000Like, are you saying I don't have a right to exist or it's not okay to be white?
00:44:13.000Like, that's the message they're going to get because they're going to say these are hateful, these are evil, white supremacists.
00:44:17.000And so the average white person is like, wait, what the hell?
00:44:20.000But the same thing works potentially with public activism where you go out, you give a speech.
00:44:27.000I'm here to talk about whiteness, about what it means to be white, and say, like, to our people that, you know, we have a history, we have a culture, and that's great, and we should be proud of it.
00:44:37.000And not say anything negative about any of the groups, not put SS ruins on your cheek or anything like that.
00:44:45.000And they're going to attack you the same way.
00:45:07.000But I mean, you know, in our defense, those of us that have been part of some of this stuff, like, it's not, these things are hard to do.
00:45:15.000And it's, you know, things always kind of get, Chaotic once you actually enter into the real world, but at some point, the real world has to be entered.
00:45:23.000So, yeah, no, and yeah, I agree with a lot of that, and I think that's a pretty fair settlement here.
00:45:30.000We're coming up on the 50 minute mark where we take questions, so I think that's a good place to leave it off.
00:45:35.000And I think there's a lot of agreement there.
00:45:37.000There's a lot of disagreement, too, to be fair, about the American optics question, about the political question, the activism, the rallying, and all that.
00:45:45.000But I think we've basically what I hoped would happen, what I think did happen is we.
00:45:51.000We basically defined very well where we stand, which I think was a little bit missing.
00:45:56.000When it gets heated on Twitter, when it's in the 140 characters, it gets lost a little bit.
00:46:00.000So I'm glad that this wasn't the throwdown a lot of people were expecting.
00:46:05.000But I think we, in a clear and cool and concise manner, laid out where we stand and where the disagreements are and what that's going to look like moving forward.
00:46:13.000So I am not against a cooperative and quiet alliance between the intellectual vanguard, between the consciousness raising and the political IRL stuff.
00:46:26.000There's going to be clashes on those topics because they are, you know, they do come into context sometimes, but I think we can agree that we're all going for the same thing.
00:46:35.000And in the long run, that'll be good that we know where we stand.
00:49:00.000And not even in like a gay, like Daily Wire, like Dave Rubin thing where it's like you regurgitate neoliberal talking points where you actually hear something new.
00:49:08.000You actually hear answers to questions that you didn't think about answering or that haven't been answered.
00:49:14.000So, not to ramble on about that, but I think it was very productive.
00:49:17.000And, um, Sorry to disappoint the cage match people that wanted to see a winner and a loser.
00:49:22.000You know, Enoch, he messaged me beforehand and said, you know, look, I just want to have a conversation.
00:50:23.000Gary Oak dropping the dollar, Simon Skola with the double shekel.
00:50:27.000And Simon Skola says criticism isn't the same as counter signaling.
00:50:30.000I think that's a key thing we can learn today because a lot of the things I said were completely accepted by Enoch and other people, and it's criticisms.
00:50:39.000You know, bring a podium, wear a red tie, don't have rallies, or if you do have them controlled.
00:50:45.000These are things that are not partisan, these are things that are not attacking the character of the people, and therefore I don't think they're counter signaling.
00:50:53.000And even some of the organizational stuff that we may have to resolve later in the week.
00:50:58.000And people might know what I'm referring to.
00:51:00.000But even on that question, I think there is a fine line between completely healthy and valid criticism and counter signaling.
00:51:07.000You know, notice I never said these are bad people.
00:51:11.000I never said they were people that had bad intentions.
00:51:15.000And unfortunately, they made me bring up the Nazi KKK stuff.
00:51:19.000I never called Richard Spencer anything than what he is, which is a white identitarian.
00:51:23.000I never called them a white supremacist or a Nazi.
00:51:25.000But when they have literal card carrying Ku Klux Klan members and National Socialists, It's inescapable that you have to criticize that kind of stuff.
00:51:36.000I think people understand that if you're trying to pursue a political avenue, necessarily you're going to have to distance yourself from the vanguard.
00:51:43.000And people bring up the example of the left.
00:51:56.000But when he ran for Senate and when he ran for president, he necessarily had to distance himself from people he was personally friends with.
00:52:03.000People who were his mentors, people who he probably agreed with very much, but he had to create that distance so that people in Wisconsin would vote for him.
00:52:11.000He had to create that distance so people in Florida would vote for him in 2008.
00:52:15.000People who, you know, maybe deep down and over the course of time they've come to agree with the Alinsky paradigm, it didn't look good in an election.
00:52:24.000And I think that's really the disagreement there.
00:52:28.000And Enoch thinks it's more of this long term.
00:52:31.000Enoch and Spencer, and I hope I'm not straw manning here, they think it's a little bit more of a metapolitical game.
00:52:36.000Of raising consciousness, changing minds before we get politics.
00:52:40.000I think it's a combination of the two and some of the changing of the minds.
00:52:44.000The directness can upset the on the ground political stuff.
00:52:47.000But, I mean, it's, you know, we've had this conversation.
00:53:45.000And hard right is a useful category because that's different than saying Nazi and KKK, but it means the same thing and it creates the same disassociation.
00:54:04.000The more broad disagreement is the optical question of do we pursue the post American metapolitical, which I think there is a bit of a nuance between Spencer and Enoch.
00:54:15.000Comes at it from like a yucky perspective of this pan European, post American project.
00:54:22.000And Enoch, I think, is a little bit more practical.
00:54:24.000I think he's a little bit more tactical as opposed to strategic in saying, we want to create a white consciousness, and that will be good for politics.
00:55:24.000And people can say, well, we didn't get a chance to speak.
00:55:27.000We didn't get a chance to express our optics.
00:55:29.000But even the promotional materials was confusing.
00:55:32.000And that's a logistical thing that everyone can agree needs to change.
00:55:35.000Whether you think it should be LARP in European or it should be Americana, messaging should always be focused, should always be concise, in as little words as possible, in actionable statements.
00:55:47.000And those are the things we can all get better at.
00:55:48.000And I commend them for saying that that is an area where they can improve on.
00:57:12.000You want that with a political movement.
00:57:14.000But in terms of paradigm shifting, it didn't look like you walked out of 100 years ago.
00:57:18.000In the modern day tradition, when we try to LARP and replicate that aesthetic, it's contrary to, in principle, what Hitler did.
00:57:27.000So that is a perfect example of going after the superficial image versus the essence of what's going on there.
00:57:36.000I firmly believe that the followers of Hitler, and I don't know why they follow somebody that lost, but people that follow Hitler, They want to use his brand.
00:57:46.000If somebody like that was alive today, they would be encouraging something more timely, something more palatable.
00:57:53.000And that's just food for thought for people that look up to Rockwell and want to learn from the failures of those movements.
00:58:01.000Sam Hyde says, Yay, mommy and daddy are not fighting anymore.
00:58:04.000Yeah, and I wanted to bury the hatchet.
00:58:36.000And at the same time, I consider Richard Spencer and Mike Enoch an ally.
00:58:39.000And I consider, you know, anybody who wants to talk with me, anybody who wants to do good for my message and bring it to more attention.
00:58:48.000We should be diplomatic with those people.
00:58:50.000And so I get the concerns people have.
00:58:52.000I'm not going to pretend like I don't have the same concerns, but it's important for somebody who's political to be diplomatic and to cultivate those relationships because you never know what's going to come in handy down the road.
01:00:10.000And I have a little bit of an ego, so I won't comment on who's smarter.
01:00:14.000I'm, you know, there's a lot of egos in this movement who would contend that kind of question, but I understand where he's coming from, you know?
01:00:20.000I hope I'm not coming across as like bullshitting or flip flopping, but you know, I do believe these things.
01:01:35.000I've been obsessed with that story since seventh grade.
01:01:39.000I just never could conceive of somebody who was so ruthlessly pragmatic and committed and could wield so much power.
01:01:47.000It's just really like a striking, I think, a striking story that happened in the 20th century that demonstrates a lot about what's been going on in our civilization.
01:01:58.000So, you know, Peterson talks about this.
01:05:19.000So the least you could do, you should be, you should be, I don't even know what you should be doing, but the least you could do is subscribe and click the notification button and give us a thumbs up.