00:03:51.000Well, anyways, so basically, I believe the main topic we're going to debate today is civic nationalism versus ethnic nationalism.
00:04:02.000So it'll be similar to the Tokes versus Spencer debate.
00:04:07.000Hopefully, I hope that Fuentes has some new arguments for ethnic nationalism, and I hope Tokes has brought some new arguments for civic nationalism.
00:04:16.000And also, I don't want to limit this debate to only this topic.
00:04:21.000I know we've talked about this topic quite a bit.
00:04:24.000So we're going to start on this topic for sure.
00:04:26.000But I'm going to leave it up to these two guys.
00:04:28.000If you guys want to digress from here to any sort of topic, if you want to debate, you know, whatever you want to talk about, we will go there.
00:05:10.000If you haven't heard of me, I'm a social media influencer, I'm an activist.
00:05:13.000I run a social media firm for congressional candidates.
00:05:17.000I like civic nationalism because, number one, it's not so barbaric, it's not so tribalistic in nature.
00:05:24.000I find that it's incredibly naive, especially a lot of times.
00:05:27.000I talk to Richard Spencer with that debate and everything like that, and he's advocating for a Single ethnicity per country, right?
00:05:36.000I think that we have been in such an adaptive Western civilization that we're not in the Jim Crow eras anymore.
00:05:41.000We don't need to discriminate against somebody based on their race or based on their religion or anything like that.
00:05:46.000And we can live peacefully in the same society and integrated at that.
00:05:53.000I think that a lot of the talking points that I saw with Nick in his Bobby Maxwell debate, I mean, it was more so a history lesson than anything.
00:06:47.000I think I want to distinguish, first of all, the difference in my view between ethnic and civic nationalism, for starters, by saying that civic nationalism is an ideological position.
00:06:58.000Civic nationalism is premised on the belief that all groups and all people are the same.
00:07:06.000We're all essentially pink on the inside, and the differences between races, ethnic groups, and so on and so forth are arbitrary.
00:07:13.000And given that, Premise, given that liberal John Locke premise that we're all blank slate and we're all pink on the inside, civic nationalists build up with this ideological belief that is not supported by history or by facts or biology or anything like that.
00:07:28.000And they say, well, then there's no reason why we shouldn't all be able to get along.
00:07:31.000And I think to distinguish that from the ethnic nationalist point of view, I don't believe in ethnic nationalism.
00:07:37.000It's not something I like, it's not something that's good for me.
00:07:40.000I see ethnic nationalism as simply the truth.
00:07:42.000I see it as a force, much like gravity, in the sense that.
00:07:46.000We are ignoring in this country today as we've reshaped the definition of what it means to be an American in a national sense.
00:07:53.000We are ignoring things that are intrinsic to our nature as human beings, ignoring things that are intrinsic to our biology, to our evolution.
00:08:01.000And so, ethnic nationalism, it's not something I'm thrilled about.
00:08:05.000But I think that if you observe the course of history, American or otherwise, you will not find a single multi ethnic, multi racial country that is egalitarian that has succeeded and prospered for a very long time.
00:09:21.000To be a civic nationalist, you just have to be able to.
00:09:25.000Cooperate and integrate into a Western civilization, regardless of race or religion.
00:09:31.000These identity politics are so based with leftism that you honestly shouldn't even be on the right wing because that is the identity politics that the Democrats push.
00:09:48.000That's not the civic nationalism that I believe in.
00:09:50.000What I believe in is that you don't need to judge somebody on their race or their religion, and that as long as you have the common denominator of culture, you can get along in Western civilization.
00:10:00.000Well, here's why civic nationalists have to believe that all people are equal.
00:10:05.000Here's why civic nationalism, I mean, civic nationalism, that's one word for it, but it's also called liberal nationalism.
00:10:10.000Do you view everybody else as inferior?
00:10:13.000My friend, I'll let you finish, please.
00:10:15.000We can have a much cleaner debate if we allow each other to finish.
00:10:22.000Civic nationalism is also sometimes called liberal nationalism.
00:10:25.000And I don't say that in a disparaging way to say Eurolefty, Democrats are the real racist.
00:10:30.000What I mean to say when I say it's liberal nationalism is I mean it's based in.
00:10:34.000Liberal enlightenment values, John Locke, John Stuart Mill.
00:10:37.000And the premise of liberal civic nationalism is that the differences between groups of people are not insurmountable, that if they exist, there are cultural differences which can be adapted or cooperated or massaged into a national identity.
00:10:51.000And I think the ethnic nationalist point of view says that the differences between people are so deep and so intrinsic, they define who people are.
00:11:00.000And these differences, if you accept them, if you're saying you don't believe people are all equal, These qualitative and quantitative differences between people inform their culture.
00:11:10.000The reason that African people have African culture has something to do with those differences between peoples.
00:11:17.000It's not just an arbitrary thing that Asians develop one culture, Africans one, Latin Americans one, and Europeans another.
00:11:23.000It's something that is derivative of their differences between groups.
00:11:27.000And civic nationalists, liberal nationalists, have to ignore this because they have to say, well, all of these can be massaged into one general culture.
00:11:35.000And the record of history is that that is simply not true.
00:11:37.000I think African Americans in the United States is maybe the best case where these people have been here for 500 years.
00:11:44.000And you look at their murder rate, and if you isolate the murder rate of African Americans, it is on par with West Africa.
00:11:51.000If you isolate the murder rate of white Americans, it's on par with Western Europe.
00:11:55.000If you look at Detroit, it looks more like Haiti and like Lagos than it looks like Maine or Oregon or some of the more rural white American states.
00:12:04.000And what that tells you is that maybe they speak the language and maybe they, to some extent, they know the history of the country, they've been part of the experience.
00:12:11.000But they have not assimilated into the values and the culture.
00:12:14.000Probably the best case is they voted 97% for Barack Obama in 2008.
00:12:19.000They voted 97% for Doug Jones in the special election in Alabama.
00:12:23.000And what that tells us is number one, they vote in a tribal way, they vote for people that look like them, they vote in their tribal interest.
00:12:30.000But number two, that even if they're not voting for people that look like them, they're voting as a collective, and that collective votes for things that are leftist and totalitarian, things that have nothing to do with the founding.
00:12:40.000So I think the record of history is clear that these differences exist.
00:12:44.000They can't be overcome, and we have to think about solutions for that.
00:12:48.000I think you're very rooted in ignorance.
00:13:40.000There's a lot of hostility here, but I think we can clear this up with a very simple explanation.
00:13:46.000When I say there are two questions, and I'm going to answer both of them, but when I say there are two questions, I mean, When we diagnose the problem and we say that, well, people are different and it's going to be very difficult for us to get along, that's one question.
00:13:58.000If you acknowledge that, I think we're on the same page.
00:14:01.000The second question then is, well, now that we've acknowledged that civic nationalism can't work and we can't force all these people to be together, it's going to end in ruin, then the second question becomes, what is to be done?
00:14:13.000And I think this is a very difficult question to answer.
00:14:15.000Number one, for a very good reason, because there's been no scholarship done on this.
00:14:20.000And actually, if you look at studies about conflict, If you look at studies about civil war, there was a great article in New York Magazine this week or a couple of weeks ago by Andrew Sullivan about tribalism.
00:14:30.000And he talks about how people have been studying conflict in the United States for like 50 years in the university level, studying what causes conflict and doing it in a very systematic, algorithmic way with numbers and things.
00:14:42.000And they plug them all into a computer, plug them into mathematical formulas, and they say, well, what causes conflict?
00:14:47.000And there just simply hasn't been a lot of scholarship on how ethnic diversity contributes to conflict because.
00:14:54.000We know that political correctness stifles this conversation.
00:14:57.000So I think that from the beginning, we are at an asymmetrical position where the civic nationalist position has to be propped up by free speech codes and censorship and all the rest and ostracizing people who disagree with it.
00:15:09.000And the ethnic nationalist position has been censored, has been self censored by people who study this.
00:15:14.000And that's why there simply aren't a lot of good answers on the table.
00:15:19.000I would say that we just have to get pointed in the right direction.
00:15:25.000If we're going to resolve these differences within the United States that are ethnic and whatever, there's a couple of ways we can go about it.
00:15:37.000But if you look around the world, the most successful, the most prosperous, the most peaceful, multi ethnic, multi racial countries that have thrived in spite of their diversity are ones that have tribal differences implemented in their constitutions.
00:15:50.000For example, in Ethiopia, they have something called ethnic tribalism.
00:16:04.000You're saying you're pushing segregation, so you view these people as inferior to you.
00:16:09.000No, segregation means merely separating people, not subverting one over the other, not creating a power argument, simply separating them by skin color.
00:16:41.000I said the first thought, one of the options that we can do, you can say that, but it's just simply not true.
00:16:46.000One of the options that we can do is segregation.
00:16:48.000And like I said, if you look in Switzerland, for example, is a country that has tremendous ethnic diversity.
00:16:54.000And the way that they're able to handle that is they have voluntary, but clearly demarcated different areas for the different ethnicities.
00:17:02.000In Ethiopia, and in terms of where they live, in Ethiopia, they have ethnic federalism.
00:17:06.000In Singapore, this is a great example.
00:17:08.000One of the greatest statesmen in the 20th century was the founder of the modern state of Singapore.
00:17:12.000He institutionalized these tribal differences.
00:17:14.000And that's one route that we could go in.
00:17:16.000Another route that we can go in is what people like American Renaissance advocate for, like Jira Taylor have advocated for, which is some form of voluntary segregation where people are simply allowed to live with who they want to live in.
00:17:28.000Right now, you have different executive departments.
00:17:31.000You're advocating for something that already exists.
00:18:03.000You even look at public schools and what's been the law of the land since the 1950s is desegregation.
00:18:09.000You're forced to live together in the same areas.
00:18:12.000And so I think if we had some sort of voluntary sorting, I think people would eventually choose.
00:18:17.000And we know that that would happen because if you look in any High school lunchroom.
00:18:21.000This is my favorite example because it's so true and it's so primordial.
00:18:26.000High school children are not yet indoctrinated into this.
00:18:29.000They're not going to let their prejudices guide them.
00:18:32.000There's no institutional law that says you have to interact with these people and so on.
00:18:36.000And so, if you go into any high school lunchroom in America, you'll see this self segregation.
00:18:40.000You'll see this self sorting on display.
00:18:42.000If you go into a diverse lunchroom in high school, you'll see the Hispanic kids sitting with the Hispanics, the blacks with the blacks, the whites with the whites.
00:19:02.000But point being, there are several avenues that we can go down.
00:19:05.000You could go down the institutional route, you can go down the self segregation route.
00:19:09.000There could be some kind of secession movement.
00:19:12.000I don't know who's talking about that, but there are a lot of different areas we can explore.
00:19:16.000Problem is, the scholarship is not there because, as you know, and I think it's fair to admit, that this topic has been censored and you're simply not allowed to talk about it because people.
00:19:25.000People then start making accusations that if you believe in differences between people, you believe in superiority over people.
00:22:07.000You say, Nick, how could this work in America?
00:22:09.000And I clearly differentiate that, first of all, We've basically conceded that we're not willing to talk about whether or not civic nationalism is viable.
00:22:17.000We're not willing to talk about whether or not civic nationalism has worked.
00:22:20.000We're only willing to say that ethnic nationalism simply doesn't have a plan for how it could be implemented, even though ethnic nationalism is not a program, it's not an ideology.
00:22:30.000Ethnic nationalism is simply the reality that nation states tend not to work if the nation is not defined in some way, shape, or form by bloodline, by ancestry, by biology, whether that's ethnic, whether that's racial, it simply doesn't work.
00:22:44.000And so, if we're going to gear our country, well, okay, but if you define nationality as citizenship, as anybody who comes across the border and signs a piece of paper, I signed on the dotted line and I took the test and I took the oath and I'm a citizen.
00:23:00.000That's really an arbitrary definition of what it means to be an American.
00:23:03.000I think being an American is a little bit more than a piece of paper.
00:23:07.000Listen, let me give you an example, right?
00:23:15.000And morals and values that we have all embraced.
00:23:17.000These are a lot of the things that are guaranteed in our constitution.
00:23:21.000Nobody's saying that we need to bring people from the Middle East here that don't want to assimilate, that don't value our culture, that don't love our country, okay?
00:23:29.000And then say, hey, we have to get along because that's not what I'm advocating for.
00:23:32.000I'm saying the common denominator that brings people together, that unifies people, can be nationality.
00:24:57.000It's because if you go into the mainstream and you talk about this stuff, if you go into the mainstream and you say, look, I have no problem with black people, I can get along fine with them, I could get along with Hispanics and all the rest.
00:25:08.000But if you go into the mainstream and And you say, even though I have no problem with them, I just don't think that in the long term the country can function without a super majority of a given ethnic group.
00:25:22.000And that's because of people in the media.
00:25:25.000And if you look at who controls the media, if the people who controlled the media were subject to ethnic national standards of national identity, they would be found in a very difficult position.
00:25:36.000And I'll find, and I'll find, I think many people will find that the most vocal opponents of ethnic nationalism.
00:25:42.000Are the ones that would probably not fare so well if we adopted it.
00:25:45.000For example, R.C. Maxwell, who debated against me, was black.
00:25:52.000And here is why a lot of people, and look, I'm just going to say it, but a lot of people are unwilling to look at the hard facts.
00:25:59.000They're unwilling to look at the empirical, the historical, the theoretical case about ethnic nationalism because it would adversely and directly affect you.
00:26:09.000Because, you know, you look at Jewish people in this country and they've, Been unassimilable for 2,000 years, for longer, for 2,500 years.
00:26:16.000And they would suddenly be on the outside looking in.
00:26:18.000They'd be facing a country with a very big majority, with a very strong national pride, national conviction, national identity.
00:26:30.000That's why they have to throw in, and you have to throw everything but the kitchen sink about you're young, it's barbaric.
00:26:36.000But none of these come close to a substantive argument for how civic nationalism could ever be viable because it never has been.
00:26:43.000Can you tell me a single Case in the history of the world when civic nationalism has created a prosperous nation and not led to ethnic conflict.
00:27:22.000I'm not saying anything about my individual capacity.
00:27:24.000I don't think that you understand the power dynamics in the domestic United States.
00:27:27.000I don't think you understand the liberal establishment has put themselves in all these positions of power.
00:27:32.000I don't think that you understand that the mainstream media perpetuates a divide and conquer agenda and categorizes people in different groups to keep them from batting at each other.
00:27:43.000If you don't want to understand this or you can't recognize it, then honestly, I have no help for you because I can give you some facts here.
00:29:42.000That are multi ethnic, that are multi racial.
00:29:44.000The only countries that are multi ethnic or multi racial that have not descended into civil war or ethnic conflict or secession are countries where there is an accounting for tribalism in their constitution.
00:29:56.000Ethiopia, Switzerland, Singapore, in all these countries where they manage to have different peoples living together, they have an accommodation for tribalism.
00:30:05.000But again, until and unless we get comfortable about talking about ethnic nationalism, none of these things can be explored, none of these things can be studied.
00:30:13.000And that's where it's an asymmetrical position.
00:30:15.000But wait, we've been talking about it, the nationalism, but you have yet to answer where there is a single successful example of civic nationalism where we've produced a country that can exist purely on the laurels of its civic nature, of its citizens.
00:31:20.000You can easily segregate to a different neighborhood and live in an all white community if you really want to.
00:31:25.000You can live in an all Jewish community if you wanted to.
00:31:28.000You can sit with all white people if you're really so much based in identity and identitarian politics, where you view someone instead of on their merit, their character, their personality, you know, whatever they bring to the table.
00:31:38.000And you look at something so arbitrary as skin color and you say, This is what brings us together.
00:33:16.000Anyway, Israel is a great example because the culture, the underlying culture, the common denominator of the culture as well as the citizenship is what unites the general populace.
00:33:27.000And of course, you have different fringe areas, you have different religions, you have different races, you have different skin color, et cetera.
00:33:32.000But that doesn't mean to say that you need to judge somebody based on that.
00:33:35.000And hold them in a lower regard because of it, right?
00:33:38.000And in the case in the United States of America, the only reason we have a divide and conquer agenda is because they don't want people united.
00:33:45.000You're looking at something and saying it must be skin color or it must be religion that's dividing people.
00:33:50.000It's not, it's the power dynamic and the internal structure of the mainstream media and the influence they hold over the minds of the masses.
00:33:56.000And when you can advocate for something, it's actually very much true.
00:34:01.000And that's who's pushing the divide and conquer agenda.
00:34:07.000We can all unite as American citizens regardless of your race.
00:34:10.000Now, that is not to constitute as we need to bring in all of these other people and have them immigrate into the States and have them not assimilate or have them hold no American values, et cetera.
00:34:20.000Anyone that wants to immigrate into the United States should assimilate into our culture, number one.
00:34:24.000They should hold the same values and they should love America, right?
00:34:27.000So, we're not talking about Sharia law.
00:34:29.000We're not talking about bringing in people that advocate for something that supersedes our constitution or supersedes the cultures and values that are instilled to all of us as Americans.
00:34:38.000So, I saw it in the Richard Spencer debate.
00:34:41.000I said a talking point like that, and they said, Oh, well, you're advocating to bring as many Muslims in as possible.
00:35:08.000You've given me a lot to work with here, and I'll start out by saying, You go from in the beginning of the debate saying you acknowledge that groups are different.
00:35:17.000You started out from the beginning of the debate saying, You are inferring about me that I don't see differences between people when actually I do.
00:35:24.000But then you follow up just now by saying, I don't see skin color.
00:35:28.000I'm able to interact with all kinds of people.
00:35:38.000We went on then to this idea that self segregation is possible in the country today, something which is increasingly untrue, not just because of quota.
00:35:48.000Policies, which you continue to, I guess, just simply ignore the fact that if you go into a business, they have racial quotas.
00:35:54.000They have to hire a certain amount of people from certain races in universities and public schools where they force integration.
00:36:01.000In another count, if you look at the 14th Amendment or the Civil Rights Act in 1964, you're not allowed to discriminate with your business.
00:36:09.000You're not allowed to discriminate with anything else.
00:36:11.000And it's funny because certain groups can discriminate.
00:36:13.000If blacks say that this is our thing and we're going to discriminate against white people, that's okay.
00:36:24.000We're not allowed to choose to self segregate because the globalist elite is bringing people over here by the millions.
00:36:30.000And like it or not, by 2050 or 2060, whether you agree with it or not, the civic nationalist program has white Americans becoming a minority in the country, 40% by I think it's 2065.
00:36:43.000And so then we'll be forced to integrate with other people, we'll be forced to be among other people.
00:36:49.000There'll be no chance of self segregation there.
00:36:53.000You say, we're not like the Muslim countries where they segregate and all the rest.
00:36:58.000When in fact, the biggest segregator of them all, maybe not the biggest, but a big one, is Israel, where, and granted, it's not 100% Jewish.
00:37:05.000I don't think anybody ever claimed there was 100% Jewish.
00:37:08.000What makes Israel abide, I let you finish, what makes Israel abide by ethnic nationalism is that they were explicitly founded.
00:37:16.000It is in their constitution that they are the Jewish state for the Jewish people, the Jewish homeland.
00:37:22.000And they mean ethnically Jewish, they don't mean religious, they mean ethnically Jewish.
00:37:28.000And they can have other people in there.
00:37:30.000But by the same token, they make it clear this is a Jewish country.
00:37:33.000They clearly demarcate between the Muslim neighborhoods in Jerusalem.
00:37:37.000They distinguish between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank in Israel.
00:37:41.000Additionally, they have active policies where they resettle black Jews, where the black Jews come into Israel and they say, Not going to happen.
00:37:48.000And they say, You either take $3,000 and you get the hell out or we throw you in jail.
00:38:38.000And I think we have to distinguish here because there's a difference between barbarism, which is a very loaded term, and something which is tribal, something which is primitive, which I think, as try as we might to rationalize society, try as we might to build up society according to our theories and designs, there is something innate in our nature.
00:38:58.000There are things in our nature that will never progress.
00:39:03.000And I see you as a classical liberal in the sense that you believe these primitive, Tribal instincts that are intrinsic to our nature can be overcome.
00:42:29.000Reinterpretation on Mike's part of everything Nick says is disheartening.
00:42:33.000Also, Americanism means nothing when Jewish globalists bring in any low IQ street shitter from the third world to replace natives here for shekels.
00:43:14.000I mean, from me listening to just having people on my show, from the Kumite, from Andy Iworski Live, from JF's channel, even some other channels, smaller channels, I've learned a lot about everything that's going on.
00:43:30.000I've actually altered some of my opinions.
00:43:33.000I think having a free marketplace of ideas is the best way to get all the ideas out.
00:44:37.000And there's a big cultural difference between the African American community and a lot of other communities that are more involved in politics and a little bit more politically inclined.
00:44:45.000Most people have been so marginalized by the political system and the atmosphere that exists in the United States that they immediately shun politics.
00:44:54.000And due to cognitive dissonance, they don't want to hear anything else that hasn't been propagated by the mainstream media every day on the nightly news.
00:45:02.000So I think the biggest thing is controlling the information.
00:45:04.000We want to have as many social media influencers.
00:45:06.000We want to be pushing the Overton window.
00:45:08.000And I do appreciate Nick actually for pushing the window because ultimately, the more radical we are in our thoughts, the more we become critical thinking, the more that we can question that authority and question what we're hearing on the TV or hearing in the newspaper and start thinking to ourselves and say, hey, maybe this is a more cynical agenda at hand.
00:45:26.000Maybe that they are manipulating you to believe that.
00:45:29.000You should vote for Democrats when these are going to be the same exact people that ultimately say whatever they can and champion.
00:45:35.000They pretend to be champions of the poor and the middle class, and they're champions of minorities.
00:45:40.000But ultimately, the only thing and the only reason they say these things are to get your vote.
00:45:44.000And then they go and represent the corporate interests that bankroll their campaign as soon as they get elected.
00:45:48.000So I think the biggest thing is red pilling the people, convincing them that, hey, this is the inner dynamics of government.
00:45:54.000This is the power structures that exist today.
00:45:56.000This is who owns the mainstream media.
00:45:58.000These are the executives that are pushing in the narrative and are ultimately.
00:46:01.000Very biased and filtered in the way that they construct the news.
00:46:05.000And you can't be looking at the meme accounts too, because we're buying up as many meme accounts and pushing conservative news through them, while we have recognized that the left and the liberal establishment is buying up meme accounts to shape public opinion to push people to vote for Democrats.
00:46:18.000So it's kind of like a proxy war behind the scenes.
00:46:20.000Ultimately, we need to get as many people involved.
00:46:22.000And I'm going to have Nick respond here in a second, but I just want to point out I'm just telling you what we've had.
00:46:29.000I've had a lot of these similar debates recently.
00:46:31.000And so, because I do want to move this conversation forward.
00:46:35.000Basically, what most people have said is sure, that's a noble cause and that's something really great that we want to get 90% of African Americans to vote Democrat.
00:47:27.000But the issue that most people have said is that even with doing all these meme accounts, reaching out to the black community, going full force on getting minorities to vote conservative, even with the full MAGA Trump campaign, 2016 with the meme squad.
00:47:45.000Even with that, we only got 11% of the vote for Trump.
00:48:41.000And it's all about the left can manipulate culture.
00:48:44.000They have the infrastructure to do so.
00:48:46.000A lot of the times, these leftist big tech companies that are record labels and other entertainment firms use these people as pawns to advance their agenda.
00:49:08.000And while you're out there being a social media influencer and people are out there manipulating public opinion and adjusting the subconscious, Meanwhile, you have an invasion going on at our southern border.
00:49:19.000And by the way, they're pouring into California, but they're also pouring into Texas and they're pouring into Arizona and Florida, Georgia, all the states.
00:49:29.000And in 10, 15 years, the country's going to go blue.
00:50:25.000Either you're saying they're primitive and they're barbaric because they're voting in their tribal interest.
00:50:31.000Either you're saying blacks are primitive and barbaric because they're voting for tribalism, or you're saying they're not voting for tribalism.
00:50:38.000They've just simply been brainwashed by the mainstream media, in which case you're denying that black people have agency.
00:50:45.000You're saying that black people are not competent to develop their own views and opinions.
00:50:49.000There's not a spread because if it's not tribalism, well, then they must just be incompetent.
00:50:54.000Well, I'm not putting words in your mouth, but these are the fundamental.
00:50:58.000The premise necessitates that you have these.
00:51:05.000Everybody else seems to get along just fine.
00:51:07.000White people seem to choose just fine, but you seem to have it that they have no agency, and that's why they need to be, in your own words, subliminally programmed through buying meme accounts.
00:51:47.000Because the infrastructure and the people that are influencing culture and the people that are manipulating culture and the people that are influencing our nation's youth through the mainstream media and other outlets of media are almost 95% leftist, liberal aligned.
00:52:30.000Because we have plenty of white people that voted for Obama.
00:52:34.000We have plenty of white people that voted for Hillary.
00:52:38.000But the majority of white people voted for Trump.
00:52:41.000And then you wanted to base the immigration policy.
00:52:43.000And then you wanted to base the immigration policy.
00:52:45.000And then you said, oh, Texas is going to turn blue, or this is going to turn blue.
00:52:48.000You brought in immigration when we haven't even talked about that.
00:52:51.000You're saying that, oh, okay, the only thing we, while we're attempting to wake people up, everything's going to turn blue in the meantime.
00:52:57.000I already told you my immigration policy.
00:52:59.000I don't want any immigrants until we have an unemployment rate below 2% and we get 97 million unemployed Americans jobs, because then ultimately everyone that comes in is competing.
00:53:08.000So I think that we can agree on that, correct?
00:53:11.000Well, I'm telling you that that's why it's a false premise.
00:53:15.000I brought in immigration to demonstrate that.
00:53:17.000You know, you're the one that's telling me you need to come up with solutions, otherwise, you're living in fantasy land.
00:53:22.000And no, I'm talking about it's not okay, but it's not practical and it's not a solution.
00:53:33.000Even if you build your infrastructure, you're still going to have minorities voting this way.
00:53:39.000And in you know, maybe the timeline is 25 years if you're being benevolent, and in that span of time, the country is gone, the country is surrendered to left leaning.
00:55:02.000I said we need to control the information because we can control the minds of the masses.
00:55:05.000We can wake people up to the inner dynamics of government because we can have our own infrastructure, like our own media and our own artists and all this kind of stuff.
00:55:13.000You said that'll never happen because they're going to flood in south of the border.
00:55:16.000Well, if I got what I wanted, we wouldn't have any immigration until we have 97 million Americans that are out of work employed, right?
00:55:25.000I'm working on six congressional campaigns in the state of California.
00:55:28.000We're fighting to reduce immigration until we have Americans that have, until we don't have homeless Americans, until we don't have.
00:55:35.000Unemployed Americans, and we have 97, one third of the country, which is so.
00:55:39.000Your argument was based in falsehoods and fallacy because you related immigration into a topic that wasn't even concerning.
00:55:46.000I'm talking about a way to change someone's opinion.
00:55:48.000You're talking about it doesn't matter because the question you don't seem to be asking yourself the question you don't seem to be asking yourself is why?
00:56:15.000They have very strong influence over the minds of many.
00:56:17.000Black people, not because of tribalism, not because of a group interest, not because of a tribal identity, because of the left wing media, 97% of them go for Barack Obama.
00:56:30.000And you know, I think that's a convincing argument.
00:56:32.000When they put up Barack Obama, the first black serious candidate for president, and almost 100% of them went for Barack Obama, I thought.
00:57:10.000Either they're engaging in tribalism, in which case.
00:57:13.000You disavow and there it's primitive and barbaric, or they're so low agency, they're so low IQ that we cannot possibly fight for things all by themselves.
00:57:23.000Even the whites, the majority of whites can figure out.
00:57:45.000The people that have been disenfranchised by the political system, the people that have been marginalized, they want to hear a politician say, I'll give you everything you need.
00:58:47.000I don't want to talk about other countries like China or Japan.
00:58:50.000I understand that they have a complete different set of values.
00:58:52.000They have a complete different set of culture.
00:58:54.000They have different laws and different rules and regulations that they have to abide by.
00:59:00.000We're living in the United States, all three of us right now, right?
00:59:03.000So, Nick is advocating for ethnic nationalism.
00:59:05.000And the difference between me and civic nationalism is I'm not looking at somebody by their race or their religion and saying we need to segregate people like we're in Jim Crow eras, which I believe to be incredibly barbaric.
01:00:04.000Now, the top 10 countries by ethnic diversity, the top 10 civic nationalist countries, I guess you could say by their ethnic diversity, let's go through them.
01:00:14.000And then we'll go through some of the ethnic nationalist ones.
01:00:17.000And we'll kind of gauge where we're headed here because we were ethnic nationalist right up until 1965.
01:00:23.000And now we've been gradually drifting towards civic nationalism.
01:00:28.000So I wouldn't, I mean, we're kind of there.
01:00:29.000I think once you pass the threshold of 80%, you're there.
01:00:31.000So you've only been civic nationalist for about 25 years.
01:00:35.000Let's look at these countries to get an idea of where we're headed, and we'll select one.
01:00:39.000So, in terms of ethnic diversity, these are the most civic nationalist countries.
01:00:43.000We have Papua New Guinea, Tanzania, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Uganda, Liberia, Cameroon, Togo, South Africa, the Congo, and Madagascar.
01:00:53.000These are the top 10 civic nationalist countries.
01:00:56.000And then let's look at the top 10 ethnic nationalist countries.
01:00:59.000We've got South Korea, Japan, Israel, Italy, Portugal, Poland, Greece, the Netherlands, Yemen, And Haiti.
01:01:08.000And so we've got a pretty good list there.
01:01:09.000The last two are not so great, and it's kind of interesting, you know, what groups of people those last two ones are.
01:01:15.000But I think if we get an idea of where other countries have gone on practices, on principles of civic versus ethnic nationalism, we get a pretty clear picture, one which is not ambiguous, which is that civic nationalist countries that have no ethnic or racial basis for nationality, they don't do very well.
01:01:32.000And then the data supports this as well.
01:01:34.000Tanya Ellingson wrote in the Journal of Conflict.
01:01:38.000She concluded that ethnic diversity did increase the risk of civil war, especially when the largest ethnic group fell below 80% of the population and when there were several other ethnic groups in the mix.
01:01:51.000We'll give one more study and then I'll hand it off to you and you can tell me why we shouldn't be worried about this.
01:01:57.000In 2002, Robert Putnam, who wrote the great book Bowling Alone, discovered that outgroup trust, after doing a study involving 30,000 people in 41 locations, he found that ethnic diversity contributed to a loss of social capital.
01:02:10.000He found that outgroup trust Which is how much people trust people other than themselves, is lower in diverse communities.
01:02:17.000And also in group trust, which is how much you trust people who look like you, was also down if you look at countries that have more ethnic diversity or communities.
01:02:27.000So it looks like people that are in ethnically diverse settings, he says, they quote, hunker down.
01:03:36.000We can't just bring in people that are not willing to assimilate.
01:03:38.000We can't bring in people that are advocating for Sharia law, which will never and can never assimilate into Western civilization, especially in the domestic United States.
01:03:48.000So I think that you're advocating, I don't even know what you're saying.
01:03:52.000There can never be a practical use of ethnic nationalism in the United States.
01:03:58.000You're advocating for something that is fantasy.
01:05:22.000I want what our founders want for our country, which is, you know, if you look at John Jay, John Jay, who was one of the co writers of the Federalist Papers.
01:05:44.000So you can also understand, we can come to the same opinion that we were living in a much different time 200 years ago, 150 years ago, and that the public sentiment ultimately shifted in favor of viewing all people equal, regardless of the race.
01:05:56.000When did the public sentiment really, I mean, the public sentiment really didn't change until the 1970s, or really, I mean, even very recently, the 1965 Immigration Act?
01:06:06.000I mean, because you keep, look, we can go on and on.
01:06:08.000I think you know the arguments that John Jay made, all the presidents really up until Harry Truman made about the different races in the country, but If we can tackle this issue of Americans came to a consensus and they found out that racism was wrong and America is now a country for everyone, not just white people, that is just simply not true.
01:06:26.000The 1965 Immigration Act, which has opened up the floodgates to immigration from all these different countries, if you look at immigration in 1960, it was almost all white and it was very little immigration.
01:06:38.000After 1965, it was almost everything but white and there was a lot more of it.
01:06:42.000And the 1965 Immigration Act, which was as recently, that was 50 years ago, the 1965 Immigration Act was passed.
01:06:49.000Explicitly with the assumption that it would not change the demographic composition of the country, that it would not bring in immigrants from Africa and Asia, and it wouldn't bring in a lot of them.
01:07:26.000That bill was passed under fraudulent pretenses.
01:07:28.000The only reason that they want that the Democrats on the left are advocating to bring in as many immigrants as possible is because I think statistically, especially for Mexico, 70% vote Democrat.
01:07:38.000If people are waking up in this country and starting to shift the power positions to Republicans and conservatives and vote for Republicans and conservatives, then the Democrats are going to do everything in their power to maintain their position.
01:07:50.000Power to maintain being elected and bring in as many minorities as possible, bring in people from countries that don't assimilate, and bring in people that are very culturally different than us.
01:08:00.000So I understand where you're coming from.
01:08:02.000We shouldn't have an immigration policy like that.
01:08:04.000We should have an immigration policy that's based on merit, that's based on if they can create jobs, if they're going to be a drain on the economy, if they're going to be productive, if they can benefit our way of life as an American civilization.
01:08:26.000That will address many of the issues that you talked about previously, saying all of these states are going to turn blue, this and that.
01:08:34.000If we can cut it off, if we can remove that act or whatever, that bill was passed on a fraudulent pretenses, which changed the demographic.
01:08:41.000So we can both understand that, right?
01:08:45.000But I mean, then you just have to admit that it's just lie after lie where you start out by saying Japan was founded differently than we were.
01:08:51.000And it turns out it was actually quite similar.
01:08:53.000Then you say, oh, well, but anyway, we came around to a consensus and we figured out that that was wrong after the Civil War.
01:09:35.000Well, the standard definition that was accepted by everybody, I'm going to tell you, is free white men of upstanding character.
01:09:41.000And that's what it was right up until 1965, when suddenly a couple of bureaucrats and people in Washington, D.C. said, actually, no, it's for everybody.
01:09:52.000As long as they come and they contribute their money, as long as they come and they contribute some of these, which I'm told you're fond of, as long as they come and they throw the shekels into the pot into the common market, they can come and change the texture of life.
01:11:34.000Let me understand it's a very loaded question.
01:11:36.000But you're going to pretend that you don't know that it's a loaded question because, and this is the tactic that civic nationalists have to use.
01:12:14.000I agree with Abraham Lincoln, who said that if he could end the Civil War without, I mean, if you're going to bring up Abraham Lincoln as the paragon of race relations, I can give you a quote by Abraham Lincoln that summarizes what he thought.
01:12:25.000Abraham Lincoln said, quote, I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people.
01:12:35.000There is a physical difference between the white and black races, which believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality.
01:13:43.000You're living in the land of fantasy or you're living in the past history because the bottom line is that you're an American if you have citizenship.
01:14:37.000Well, I think that's just going to have to have a redefinition.
01:14:41.000I would say the system we had going about 10 years ago is pretty fine, where they would say, you know, they're African American, they're Asian American.
01:14:48.000And what this implicitly said was that you had to modify American.
01:14:51.000Nobody ever, the term white American was never popularized because America was.
01:14:56.000But you just used the pretense of your last argument.
01:15:02.000You just said the last pretense of your last argument was that the public sentiment never has always reflected an American as an upstanding white male.
01:15:11.000Now you're saying the inverse of that.
01:15:30.000To say white American was like saying American American because people, and that's why it never became popularized, but they would say African American because people knew on a very subtle and subconscious level that you have to modify American because they're foreign.
01:16:54.000The worst cities in the country, and well, I guess qualitatively different countries, or rather cities in the country, are ones that have a different texture of life because they have a different people.
01:19:34.000That's why they're oppressing the majority of people and trying to divide them into different.
01:19:40.000So, but I would say, in one sense, you do agree with ethnic congregating ethnically because if you're supporting Latinos for trauma, people can do that right now.
01:19:53.000So, you do recognize some sort of identity politics can be powerful.
01:20:36.000And even though I've told you multiple ways we could do it, you say, well, that can't work.
01:20:39.000But here's the thing I don't think anybody's arguing that it would be very difficult for us.
01:20:44.000To make our country live in accordance with these tribalist impulses.
01:20:49.000I don't think anybody's arguing that you're right, that it would be difficult.
01:20:52.000To an extent, it is impractical in the short term.
01:20:55.000But I think here's the problem regardless of whether or not there's a practical solution on the table right now that's clear cut and it's ready to go in the legislative process, or we have bots or whatever, regardless of that fact, ethnic nationalism, it still exists.
01:21:10.000Whether or not we have an answer for it, these tribalist tendencies are still going to exist tomorrow, the next day, and for 100 years.
01:21:39.000You could see which aldermen they elect.
01:21:42.000You could look in New Jersey, where Senator Menendez, the guy is like a criminal, the guy is a criminal, but he'll get easily reelected because the Hispanics will vote for him.
01:23:03.000You referenced an all white group from a university and said, They can't do this because the diversity quota, or they can't do this because it's not at all what I referenced.
01:23:10.000What I said was that you're saying that we can self segregate, but that's just not true.
01:23:21.000If you want to go and buy up a big piece of land, right, a compound of sorts, and have 3,000 only white people and not allow anyone else in because it's your land, you can do that right now.
01:23:34.000If you want to have a neighborhood that's predominantly white, then you can have all your people, all your people.
01:23:40.000Buy up all of the houses, all of the land around it, and now that is your texture of life, so you call it.
01:26:54.000And your solution to prevent this country from becoming Brazil, your position to prevent this country from becoming Brazil is meme accounts.
01:27:03.000And you're gonna tell me it's a joke, it's actually the uh, and it's because, but wait, but it's because my young 19 year old friend, as well as anybody else, this nationalism is not viable.
01:27:17.000That's why immigration is why we're living in it, my boy.
01:27:19.000That's why you have blacks going and it's not going well, my friend.
01:27:22.000They're voting according to their tribal interest, and that's why you have to frame the script and you have to frame the debate in terms of an impossible political crusade in a climate that you understand.
01:27:35.000But you want to pretend it's not asymmetrical because look, you sound great.
01:30:17.000And even in the Nazi regime, they controlled every facet of power and they manipulated the entire country into a crazy, crazy regime, right?
01:30:27.000That's the nationalism that happened back then, right?
01:30:41.000Then he's a foreign citizen exerting undue and coercive influence over our government, over our elections, over our people's opinions.
01:30:49.000That's why you have the manipulation of public opinion, because you have all of these facets of power that are aligned with the liberal left and only want to remain in their positions.
01:30:59.000So when I say meme accounts, I say memes, I say media, I say influencers, I say all of these combined cultural elements that will change people's opinions and wake them up to the inner dynamics of government.
01:31:39.000We, but we, but Mike, we've been over this.
01:31:42.000We can't, we can't just reference the Jewish community segregating into their own thing.
01:31:47.000Yeah, yeah, the Jewish community, they can, but we can't, though.
01:31:51.000So, the Latino community can't, even though they do in Los Angeles, the Armenian community can't, even though they do right here in Los Angeles, even the white communities in the nice suburbs.
01:32:01.000Of you know the outer city, whatever it is, they do the same thing.
01:32:05.000The Talmudic tricks, you're going to pretend like you don't understand.
01:32:08.000I don't like the Talmud that you're going to put to me.
01:32:11.000Okay, you're going to pretend another Talmudic lie.
01:32:14.000You're going to pretend that there is no asymmetry, you're going to pretend like there is no asymmetry between whites and non whites.
01:32:21.000You're going to sit there and really tell me that non whites have the same privileges as whites when you know that whites do not have those privileges of the use of ethnic nationalism in the United States with their own groups, right?
01:35:52.000I told you people are different, but that doesn't mean you need to look at somebody and Inferior, or you can't get along with them because of their race or religion.
01:35:59.000You don't even want to live in the same neighborhood as somebody because of their race.
01:36:40.000And then you debate me on the semantics for an hour and a half straight.
01:36:43.000Then, then, only then, when you're trapped in your little corner, will you say, oh, this right here is the reason that your people, listen, this, I'm no, look, what do you mean my people?
01:42:52.000Mike doesn't care about anyone's skin color so long as they have worthless meme accounts and a yarmulke.
01:42:58.000Also, little Mikey the liar doesn't know the difference between voluntary communities versus government mandated diversity for whites and white only.
01:44:27.000It's always masqueraded as hate speech or anything like that.
01:44:29.000And we're seeing that happen in the United Kingdom all too often as well.
01:44:34.000The bottom line is that we need legislation or we need something.
01:44:38.000I like that Ted Cruz came out and he blasted YouTube and said if you're an internet public forum, you're not held to liability as long as you don't discriminate based on political ideology or belief or ethnicity or religion or anything like that.
01:44:53.000The fact is that they always masqueraded as hate speech.
01:44:56.000Or they always change the algorithms so that we're all in these different internet ghettos.
01:45:00.000So you have conservatives over here and liberals over here.
01:45:03.000And then most of the populace, they give the advantage to the leftists and the liberals because that's ultimately the bias that they have.
01:45:11.000So I think we need an internet bill of rights.
01:45:23.000And then nowadays, that was maybe like two or three months ago.
01:45:26.000Nowadays, we have people like Ted Kloos coming out and saying it.
01:45:28.000We have different congressional people, congressmen that are saying it.
01:45:32.000So at least they recognize that I think we need an internet bill of rights ultimately.
01:45:36.000And I think that if you want to be a little bit subversive and try to be adaptive to the algorithmic changes and Facebook and Twitter, you can create new accounts that are left leaning, follow all left leaning people, and then kind of get in there with the algorithms and then change it from the inside as well.
01:46:03.000You know, so and so, whatever the case is, how you want to be receptive to that audience because the algorithms will have conservatives here, Republicans here.
01:46:11.000So, if you create a new account and you're, you know, you put a Democrat or you follow all Democrats, the algorithm will put you on that side.
01:46:49.000But no, the thing we got to do is there's really not a whole lot that individuals can do in terms of like to expect people to go on Twitter and tweet about their displeasure with Twitter.
01:47:01.000I'm not certain that that's incredibly effective.
01:47:04.000I think it's just got to come down to, like Mike said, some kind of internet bill of rights.
01:47:08.000There has to be legislative protections if that means.
01:47:13.000If we can classify Twitter and Facebook as monopolies and their separate areas in social media, if that means breaking them up or passing some kind of extension of the First Amendment or the 14th Amendment online or something to that effect.
01:47:26.000But I think it's got to be legislative.
01:47:28.000I don't see how else you can bring it about because you know the reform is not going to come from within.
01:49:32.000Of course, other people can go, but they advocate mostly for what is going to be good for the Latino community, what is going to be good for the black community.
01:49:41.000So I'm just trying to keep things honest here.
01:49:44.000I think you are engaged in some identity politics.
01:49:47.000Maybe you're not going overboard with it.
01:50:16.000Do you think these are positive net benefits, having Jews for Trump, Blacks for Trump, or do you think they're a negative thing?
01:50:24.000No, I think in that light, I think it's a positive thing for sure.
01:50:28.000And you have every right to do it or congregate or voluntarily segregate.
01:50:34.000Even though all these groups come to the rallies and there'll be a Latinos for Trump.
01:50:37.000But there's such diversity, and there's a ton of different people of all different, you know, races and ethnicities at these events and stuff.
01:50:44.000They're just advocating for, you know, whatever, a little bit of identitarian politics.
01:50:52.000I just want to make sure you see that because that was something that I saw as a hypocrisy I saw a lot of people saying, oh, we identity politics are the devil.
01:51:01.000And they would like come after me just for some things.
01:51:05.000And then I look in their Twitter bio and it's like hashtag gays for Trump, hashtag blacks for Trump, hashtag.
01:51:30.000You're going to play the left at their own game and play it better and destroy the liberal establishment that has claimed power for the last 50 years over this country.
01:52:26.000Uh, that's not identity politics, that's identity congregation.
01:52:31.000Identity politics is playing people based on their ethnicity and voting patterns.
01:52:35.000I want a congregation called the United States of America.
01:52:38.000I want a congregation, it's beautiful, and everybody else, at least, yeah, you know, and like you said, your identity of uh, or your definition of an American is an upstanding white man.
01:53:06.000You're going to count the World War II vets.
01:53:09.000If you look at those brave heroes, are you going to disagree with millions and millions of people and veterans in this country that don't agree with your identity politics?
01:53:19.000Are you really going to go against our founding fathers?
01:55:02.000You should look at the things that they present to the table and they say, these are the things that we're looking to change.
01:55:06.000That's what you should judge people on.
01:55:08.000And that's what you should judge a candidate on who's running for Congress or running for president.
01:55:12.000You don't just look at them and say, oh, this is their skin color.
01:55:15.000Oh, I'm going to vote for them because the people that do, unfortunately, a lot of the times they're not so politically inclined.
01:55:20.000They rely more so on emotional, the emotional aspect of it, or that familiar feeling of this is someone that probably relates to my everyday life instead of actually listening to what they say.
01:55:32.000And it's a little bit of cognitive dissonance.
01:55:34.000They kind of immediately reject anything else that's based in facts and logic.
01:55:38.000Because they've been so disenfranchised in the political system for the longest time.
01:55:42.000So, in that case, I think identity politics is somewhat poisonous, especially to the misinformed voter base.
01:55:49.000As far as beating the left at their own game, as far as perpetuating the same Saul Alinsky tactics in order to destroy the liberal establishment and reclaim the sovereignty of our nation from these powerful, wealthy global elites that have exerted undue influence on our government, absolutely, by any means necessary, we need to get the job done.
01:56:07.000So, those are the two differentiations right there.
01:56:53.000If I'm 72% European and the remainder Ashkenazi, am I white?
01:56:59.000Well, Jews are a very specific case because according to Jewish law, as you may know, if the mother is Jewish, regardless of what the percentage is, the kid is Jewish.
01:57:09.000So there is an ethnic component with Judaism, which is a little bit.
01:57:13.000Peculiar, but with everybody else, if it's a mixture, um, then it's a little bit uh, it's a little bit because no one is really a hundred percent white, right?
01:57:22.000So, you're even if your ethnic nationalism would be that's not entirely true.
01:57:27.000Well, but I'm not saying it's based on you know like some kind of purity of a hundred percent, but I am saying that you know somebody asked, Are Jews white?
01:57:35.000I don't think Jews are Jews wouldn't call themselves white, 30 African American, but they exert uh light melatonin, which their skin is white.
02:00:08.000You're advocating for ethnic nationalism in the United States of America, but you would want the predominant, so you would go with the Latino community.
02:00:53.000Mike admits that white Americans have been subverted and manipulated by the left while also taking the stance that the argument for ethno nationalism has to operate within the bounds of the current iteration of the modern world, which is a total illusion.
02:02:43.000Tokes, you and yours never know when you've pushed the native population too far.
02:02:49.000We're approaching a slack tide, and you won't like how things turn out when more of us find out how you people have subverted and attacked us.
02:03:47.000Guys, I saw it a lot in the Richard Spencer debate.
02:03:50.000Don't conflate things that I say, don't misrepresent things that I say.
02:03:53.000Go back and find out exactly what I said and post that in the comments because I see people a lot of times they're automatically biased towards Nick because he represents a lot more of their ideology.
02:04:07.000In a sense of cognitive dissonance, hear what I say and quote me exactly and say, I disagree with this because, and always give me a because.
02:04:13.000And you can follow me on Twitter and do that at twitter.comslash M I K E T O K E S.
02:04:19.000And by the way, guys, we're working to unify the populace.
02:04:22.000We're working to red pill as many people as possible.
02:04:26.000I'll be working on congressional campaigns.
02:04:27.000I'll be trying to change the system from within because ultimately I think that's the only way that we'll accomplish our goals and objectives.
02:05:50.000It's not even ideal, but this is the world as it is.
02:05:53.000And as conservatives, as realists, we have to deal with the world not how we want it to be, not how John Locke says it is, but how it actually is.
02:06:01.000And we see the record of history, social science, all the empirical evidence suggests that there are different peoples, different races, different ethnicities.
02:06:10.000And all the evidence suggests that when these different peoples are occupying the same land, competing for the same resources, living under the same government, they tend not to cohabitate so peacefully.
02:06:21.000And in the interest of peace, in the interest of everybody's mutual benefit, Ethnic nationalists simply believe that however it can be achieved, it would be better if there was a mitigation of this mixing that we see in the country today multi ethnic, multiracial, multicultural.
02:06:39.000I don't think anybody's bad or like I judge people differently on an individual basis.
02:06:44.000But as a country, as a nation, as a civilization, we have to make these tough choices and we have to contribute to what's going to be a long term solution, what can be a sustainable and long term world order.
02:06:56.000And I don't see a viable answer in civic nationalism.
02:07:15.000So, yeah, a lot of people in the comments think things were pretty hostile, but it seems at the end here, people have a lot of respect for Mike.
02:07:22.000People got a lot of respect for Nick as well and for the whole blood sports community.