00:00:14.000He's going to help me moderate, move along topics, and kind of let people know how much time they have left on the topic if we reach the end point.
00:00:30.000For those of you that don't know him, he's one of the original string personalities who has moved on from gameplay streams to Focus on a lot of political content, including debates and discussions on his live channel that typically pitches a left versus right sort of thing.
00:00:45.000Destiny, would you like to explain what your political stances are?
00:00:49.000Well, do you want to introduce everybody and then we can do that?
00:00:51.000Well, I was going to do one by one so we could just do that.
00:00:53.000And then after each person's introduction, yeah, sure.
00:00:57.000I guess broadly, you would probably describe me in the United States as a progressive economically.
00:01:03.000I don't know where I would necessarily fall.
00:03:02.000I'm broadly speaking an anti capitalist.
00:03:05.000I understand that there are certain structural inefficiencies built into capitalism that create a lot of conflict.
00:03:15.000And I think we need to address those problems, not just at the social level by advocating for social change, but slowly but surely through democratic procedures, ultimately give ownership back to the workers.
00:03:47.000He's a self described American nationalist who attended the Charlottesville rally and claims he had to leave Boston University because of subsequent threats.
00:04:03.000That's kind of old news trying to put that behind me.
00:04:06.000But yeah, to describe my political views, I would call myself a reactionary, a nationalist, a paleoconservative.
00:04:14.000If we're talking about the size and scope of government, I would probably say I'm basically indifferent to the size of government so long as the will of the people is executed, so long as virtue is upheld.
00:04:25.000On economics, I would probably say I'm a capitalist.
00:04:28.000Although with major skepticism, with major trepidation, because I think things have not really gone so well in the past couple of decades with capitalism.
00:04:40.000So I am for a significant amount of regulation.
00:05:02.000We're going to give the first group of people about five minutes or so to give their opening thoughts, and then the other group can give their rebuttal, and we'll go from there.
00:05:10.000We've got a number of topics set up for you guys, and we'll get ready for them as soon as the train is ready to go.
00:05:59.000So, yeah, the first one we want to talk about is the Trump obviously made a transgender ban.
00:06:05.000To where transgender individuals are not able to serve into the military.
00:06:09.000That becomes effective on, I believe, April 12th.
00:06:12.000And there's been a lot of obvious pushback on this for a number of different reasons and people stating how much money trans people cost, et cetera.
00:06:23.000And I think that we probably should start since we have the, this is kind of like their home team here, Destiny and Hassan.
00:06:31.000Why don't we go ahead and let the out of state team begin?
00:06:35.000And Nick and Sargon, if you guys want to give your opening thoughts.
00:08:01.000Well, the purpose of the military, well, I guess theoretically, what the purpose of the military ought to be is to defend the interests of the United States of America, foreign and domestic.
00:08:12.000And I think that if you're looking at how we can fulfill that end, if we're looking at how we can fulfill that directive, we ought to have people that are the best and the most capable to perform those tasks.
00:08:22.000And I'm sure probably the opposition here understands what my position is going to be on this, but.
00:08:27.000Basically, I don't recognize the legitimacy of this gender dysphoria, transgender identity.
00:08:35.000This is my position as a conservative.
00:08:37.000I look at people who begin to transition either chemically or through surgery or even just superficially, changing their dress or something.
00:08:47.000I look at that as somebody who has some kind of issue with early childhood development, probably somebody who perhaps is suffering from other issues mentally.
00:08:57.000Now, I'm not going to say that everybody who does that is mentally ill.
00:09:00.000Fortunately, we live in a country and we're on a streaming service where we recognize the rights of everybody.
00:09:05.000So, sure, I guess in this current paradigm, everybody can basically do as they please.
00:09:10.000But I feel that somebody who decides to embark on that kind of thing, you know, if you look at the surgery, it's barbaric and ghastly what they do to their own genitals or their own bodies.
00:09:20.000If you look at the chemical components, again, it's very rough.
00:09:23.000Anyone who decides to do that, I don't believe is in the frame of mind where they're able to go into a high stress environment.
00:09:30.000You look at normal people who go into this high stress environment and they come out with PTSD or other kinds of issues.
00:09:36.000I just don't think that's the best thing for what we're trying to achieve, whether that is the right thing we're trying to achieve, which is serving our own interests or serving somebody else's interests.
00:09:46.000So while I am basically ambivalent, I do believe that if we're trying to have a military that has efficacy, that is effective in what it's trying to do, I don't believe that having transgenders involved is really going to advance that cause.
00:10:00.000I don't think it's really going to facilitate that directive being achieved optimally.
00:10:24.000I mean, yeah, I'm going to throw it up to Destiny in a second.
00:10:27.000The only thing I was going to say is that, unfortunately, the way the military industrial complex is set up, the United States currently treats the United States military as a jobs program.
00:10:38.000And the Department of Defense is the largest single body that hires the most trans people worldwide.
00:10:46.000And the fact that Donald Trump, on a whim, has decided to ban transgender troops from serving and leaving out more than 12,000 active duty service members in the street without a future is kind of disrespectful.
00:11:07.000But even beyond that, it is also not cost effective.
00:11:12.000It actually costs more money to track down whoever is trans and kick them off service.
00:11:19.000It costs, even if you were to allow all trans members to get gender confirmation surgery, it would cost a fraction of what it costs for the military to pay for Viagra.
00:11:31.000So, and as far as combat readiness goes, medical professionals happen to disagree with Nick, but I'm sure.
00:11:39.000Given the fact that he already said sneakily that normal is the opposite of trans during his conversation, that his perspective is a little bigoted and maybe a little misguided, too.
00:11:51.000Isn't that just definitionally correct, though?
00:11:55.000I should have said, I think normative would have been technically definitionally correct as opposed to.
00:12:17.000So, basically, some people volunteer if they pass whatever requirements we set for them to pass.
00:12:22.000So, whatever your requirements are, coming out of basic training or whatever, background.
00:12:25.000Test or whatever, as long as you pass that, you're good to go.
00:12:28.000So, this was already studied by the Department of Defense.
00:12:31.000Our military has already had transgender people in the military.
00:12:33.000There's some, it's anywhere between like 1,000 to 10,000 people who are transgender, who are identified as transgender people, are in the military and they perform fine.
00:12:41.000This idea that everyone's going to get PTSD or all these people are going to die in combat, 80% of military roles are non combat roles.
00:12:47.000Like a lot of what our military does, like not all these people even deploy, you know, let alone actually see an active combat zone, let alone when you are deployed or even deployed into things that are even near combat zones.
00:12:56.000There are plenty of jobs that could be filled occupationally in the military that are non combat roles.
00:13:01.000I mean, for the other stuff, in terms of the other kind of loaded things like the surgeries, barbaric, or the chemical parts, I mean, I don't know.
00:13:08.000I can only go by what the science says there.
00:13:09.000And I mean, all of that is approved by the APA and it seems to be effective in helping transgender people live their lives.
00:13:14.000So I don't know how that's relevant to any of the military stuff.
00:13:18.000But yeah, I guess for the military stuff, most roles in the military are non combat and the effectiveness of transgender people has already been evaluated by the military and they've already been integrated into the military in an effective fashion.
00:13:27.000I don't know why we would change that.
00:13:38.000These are, these can be things domestically.
00:13:40.000There are just tons of these types of roles.
00:13:42.000Transgender people already seem to be able to fill these roles and they do it in an effective manner.
00:13:46.000So, for instance, one of the things I believe Trump said was that, well, you know, when you get transgender people in the military, they have all this gender dysphoria and it's ruining their lives and they need all the support and their help.
00:13:56.000None of that was ever borne out in any of the research.
00:13:59.000A lot of research related to transgender people to see if it was effective to have them in the military or if they were wasting a lot of money helping them transition and all of this stuff.
00:14:06.000And none of that ever seemed to be substantiated.
00:14:08.000It seemed like the integration of transgender people into the military was working pretty effectively.
00:14:12.000Do you concede in any way that transgender individuals per capita would cost the military more than a normal individual or, excuse me, not normal, normative individual?
00:14:21.000So per capita is kind of a hard way to say that.
00:14:24.000Like if we were randomly selecting transgender people from society and throwing them into the military, then yeah.
00:14:29.000But the people that make it into the military are already passing.
00:14:32.000There's already a selection happening there.
00:14:34.000These are people that have made it out of basic training, and these are people who have already been evaluated to be like good members serving in the military.
00:14:39.000So once they've made it past whatever requirements they have to go through to get into the military, then yeah, then they're fine, sure.
00:14:45.000So, Nick, do you think that them passing those different qualifications to be into the military grants them the ability to maybe have the government potentially pay more money for them?
00:14:55.000Or do you think the means outweigh the ends outweigh the means or what?
00:14:59.000I don't really care about the fiscal cost.
00:15:34.000It's sort of a shame that you would lump me in with them.
00:15:36.000It's actually a little bit prejudiced, I think.
00:15:38.000Well, we just had a left versus right debate, so it's understandable that I would address that perspective.
00:15:43.000You can rationalize your bigotry all you want.
00:15:47.000We should focus our discussions and our debates towards the opinions of other people that are on this show rather than the larger political parties that may or may not be associated with.
00:16:39.000From a philosophical perspective, we believe that what it means to be a man and what it means to be a woman is something that is greater than this sort of.
00:16:49.000Ad hoc adjustment that a person could make in the middle of their life.
00:16:52.000You know, I look at a man who decides to have, again, a barbaric, I will use that, it is a loaded term, a barbaric and ghastly surgery to move things around and snip things and put them inside out and all this other stuff.
00:17:04.000And they can wear a dress and go on different hormones.
00:17:06.000But we believe that sex and gender, number one, are the same thing.
00:17:10.000But number two, are greater than these material adjustments that a person can make.
00:17:15.000And moreover, we find that gender is deeper than the individual.
00:17:19.000We find that gender does have with it certain.
00:17:22.000Responsibilities do have with it certain natures and temperaments.
00:17:25.000And so I basically reject this idea that gender is something that doesn't exist or it's so arbitrary that anybody can serve in the military or it could be changed.
00:17:34.000You know, I guess it really lays bare this fundamental difference in what we believe about what gender is.
00:17:41.000I think that's why it really is a greater debate because, and I'll point out the reason I'm basically indifferent to this issue is because, as Hassan and Destiny have pointed out, you're correct.
00:17:52.000The military is this large bureaucratic.
00:18:25.000It's symbolic about What our country is going to be, what the administration says the country is going to be, and personnel, procedural things are a big part of that.
00:18:35.000So I think that's really the fundamental issue we're trying to get at.
00:19:01.000You know, it's actually kind of funny to me.
00:19:04.000What kind of world do we want to live in where we're sending our daughters, sisters, mothers into the Middle East to get exploited?
00:19:11.000Well, you were just talking about symbolism, which is precisely why I have an issue with it because I'm looking at it currently, as I described before, from the perspective of hiring practices.
00:19:19.000It seems like you just want to go ahead and insert your talking points.
00:19:22.000You want to hear what I'm going to say here because I'm going to lay out an argument.
00:19:24.000No, I just want to make sure that you don't frame it in the way that you want to frame it.
00:19:38.000Nick, do you feel like it's disingenuous for you to say that you're sending your wives and daughters out to war whenever less than half of them would ever even see any sort of threat at all?
00:20:09.000The point being is that if women are being sent. Overseas into these horrible conditions, I think that's actually shameful for a country to do.
00:20:18.000And you say, well, there's these non combat roles where women can be in.
00:20:21.000I don't believe women should be in the non combat roles either.
00:20:24.000I don't think women, frankly, I don't think they should be in the business of government.
00:20:28.000I believe that, again, and I talked about this with my Catholic values, this is where my position comes from, is informed by the fact that when you have, once you acknowledge that gender is distinct and different, once you understand that men and women, Of biological differences, which are physical, they're mental, temperamental.
00:20:46.000I mean, there's far reaching distinctions between the two.
00:20:50.000You must necessarily then recognize that there are consequences for their function and role in society.
00:20:56.000We don't simply believe that we are, we're all humans, we're all pink on the inside.
00:21:00.000The only difference is arbitrary genitalia, reproduction organs.
00:21:05.000No, we believe that men and women, in their distinctions, have different capacities and therefore different functions.
00:21:10.000So to see women going out and doing all these different things, I think that we should take care of our women.
00:21:16.000I think that our women should be, frankly, raising the children.
00:21:19.000They should be taken care of, not in these sorts of positions.
00:21:22.000So I also think it has something to do with the dynamic when you have a mixed company in a bureaucratic institution.
00:21:29.000You know, the military, I believe, should be a boys' club.
00:21:32.000Maybe you can have women in other non combat jobs in the private sector or maybe even in the public sector.
00:21:37.000But I believe that in the military, it should function in such a way that you have this brotherhood, you have this element where everybody's on the same page.
00:21:46.000What tends to happen when women enter into a situation where it's formerly an all male space is it changes the dynamic.
00:21:53.000And we witnessed this all over the place in many different formerly male dominated spaces.
00:21:58.000We know that there is a dynamic that exists between men and women that does not exist between men and men.
00:22:03.000And this kind of goes along with why we're so.
00:22:05.000Do you have any data to back up and finish your point?
00:22:08.000I don't want to put you off, but you keep going on these tangents, and I'm afraid it always feels like it's just your kind of personal perspective and what you want society to look like.
00:22:18.000Or, what you want the US military to look like?
00:22:20.000And I would really be interested to find out what you're.
00:23:24.000So basically, Steve and I'm sure Sargon and maybe even Hassan believe in this stuff where everything must be determined by a person in a lab coat.
00:23:32.000Everything must be determined by a study.
00:23:44.000I think everybody knows exactly what I'm talking about.
00:23:46.000So we could also look at all kinds of other studies.
00:23:49.000I mean, there's a lot of things that suggest that men and women are biologically distinct.
00:23:53.000I don't know if you need a study to demonstrate that, but maybe you do.
00:23:56.000Biological distinction aside, I was asking about combat readiness or women serving in the military and whether there are negative consequences.
00:24:03.000Your assertion wasn't just that men and women are different.
00:24:07.000You also then have a fundamentally different perspective than both Destiny and I do in regards to the efficiency of women and men co mingling inside of the military or even in the public space or even in positions of government, apparently, which I didn't know you held out.
00:24:23.000I think Nick's argument mostly is that the presence of women in these.
00:24:55.000Before you jump off, I actually am interested in Sans' answer to that.
00:24:59.000Do you think that women don't change the social dynamic of male only spaces?
00:25:04.000I don't think that that change in that social dynamic is actually yielding negative consequences.
00:25:10.000And if you put up like rape statistics or some shit like that, That is not the fault of the women who are serving the military, but more so the fault of the lack of regulation or our culture surrounding regulations already exist.
00:25:24.000Oh, that's actually a very good point, Hassan.
00:25:26.000So you're saying that the problems that occur are not necessarily the result of the same sex as well.
00:25:32.000It's not necessarily because of the women themselves, but the men that are causing the problems because of the women.
00:25:37.000Now, men are causing the problems as well.
00:25:40.000Men are causing the problems for themselves as well.
00:25:42.000I'm saying these are like issues that exist.
00:25:44.000Look, man, this happens in Warcraft guilds.
00:25:46.000Like, I fully understand how this works.
00:25:48.000And I think that the argument that you're going to use, and correct me if I'm wrong, is you're going to use a pragmatic argument and say that even though this is true, you still think they should go with whatever works best.
00:26:08.000No, I'm not going with the pragmatic argument.
00:26:10.000I'm arguing that, well, I'm arguing that you can show me a study that says it doesn't change its operational, whatever, and I'll tell you that it's.
00:26:18.000I'll tell you that what we know about gender, what we know about who we are, supersedes that.
00:26:23.000I mean, these things are necessarily following from these conclusions.
00:26:27.000And I think it's interesting because you asked Hassan, you said, do you believe, or I think it was Sargon who asked Hassan, do you believe that women change the dynamic?
00:26:34.000And he jumped right into, well, maybe that's the case.
00:26:38.000However, it shows that it doesn't change our operational readiness.
00:26:41.000So if you concede that we have these biological distinctions, we have social distinctions.
00:26:47.000Dynamics that change as a result, it necessarily follows that an all male military is different from a military with men and women.
00:26:56.000And just simply look at the dynamic that is caused by introducing women to the military.
00:27:00.000Can we say, without having to look at some fucking lab coat showing us, well, according to my calculations, can we say that the latter military with men and women and you have all these dynamics and relationships is more efficient than the former, than one which is full of men?
00:27:23.000Do you think the United States military, as it is today, is more efficient than the United States military when there were less women enlisted?
00:27:29.000Because women have always served in some capacity.
00:27:32.000They've updated the more effort in some capacity.
00:27:34.000But you're talking about efficiency, and yet you have nothing to put it up against.
00:27:39.000Well, like, so I think beyond this, like, this is a silly talking point because I'm using this as an analogy for the world that Nick wants to build versus the world that I think we should exist in.
00:27:56.000That's precisely why I think, like, combat readiness is only as good as a talking point.
00:28:01.000But what we're talking about simply is like women working and coexisting alongside men as equals.
00:28:07.000Or, same with trans men and trans women.
00:28:10.000That's precisely why I'm talking about this.
00:28:12.000Otherwise, I don't care about the military's imperialist mission of going out and fucking killing brown children so that some Halliburton executive can make money.
00:28:28.000But I think that's actually the fundamental distinction.
00:28:32.000You say, well, we don't want to live in the world Nick is building, we want to live in a world where we treat everyone equally.
00:28:37.000And I'm saying that by the very nature of who we are, We are not equal.
00:28:42.000We may be equal before the law and we're equal before God, but we are not equal.
00:28:46.000And if we're not equal, if we have these distinctions, which are qualitative and quantitative, then it necessarily follows that we have to have a society where difference is allowed, where you have specialization, where you have people living in accordance with their own unequal, different, distinct nature.
00:29:03.000And so it's actually you who wants to build a world.
00:29:06.000I want to live in a world where it's conducive and it works alongside our nature.
00:29:19.000Even though equality has never existed in history, empirically, I mean, there's just in no way, shape, or form is there any evidence you talk about empiricism for equality, but because you think, according to your ideology, that this is the positive good, this is the vision we all must strive for, we are going to force society to its knees to bend it to our will.
00:29:47.000The problem is that right now, okay, this issue, we can't resolve this issue because these are natural extensions of our underlying philosophy, right?
00:29:53.000So even if we could demonstrate to somebody like Nick, even if we could say, look, women serving in the military makes the military more efficient, Nick is going to say, well, women serving in the military are contrary to kind of like the baser nature of what a woman is, right?
00:30:04.000That even if women did make the military better, that doesn't necessarily mean you want them there because you don't think that's what their role in society ought to be, right?
00:30:10.000Well, I would say that it probably wouldn't be able to be shown legitimately that they improve the military.
00:30:15.000But yeah, even if you showed me a study that said something like that, I would say, yeah.
00:30:19.000Yeah, so this, so this entire conversation is already kind of talking past the point, right?
00:30:22.000So now, even if we could demonstrate, so I think it has been that there is trouble on integrating women into military because, you know, there's sexual harassment, there's rape stuff, stuff that doesn't necessarily happen when there's only men, although it's stuff still does, still does happen when there are men.
00:30:33.000Um, what somebody like me or Hassan would argue was that because we're liberals, right?
00:30:36.000That we would argue that building a society that enables people or empowers people to make decisions, um, relative, relative to what they want to do is more important than trying to force everybody into some kind of like naturalistic setting, right?
00:30:46.000Like, well, women tend to have these features, men tend to have these features, therefore we should relegate them exclusively to those roles in society.
00:30:52.000Most people, At least in liberal society, we are not okay with that.
00:30:56.000Like, typically, the weird thing when you go down that kind of like that naturalistic route where you say, well, we ought to do what we were born to do, is we end up drawing very arbitrary lines in some places.
00:31:04.000For instance, I could be wrong, but I don't think anybody in here regularly hunts for their food or grows their own crops, right?
00:31:10.000We don't exercise as much as we probably should.
00:31:12.000And the reason we don't is because we have other people in society that take care of that for us, right?
00:31:16.000We don't necessarily have to follow any hardcore natural distinction in terms of what our bodies are designed to do because we've built a society that allows us to explore other options.
00:31:23.000And all I do is, I merely, and I imagine Hassan as well, you just kind of extend that argument to other things as well, right?
00:31:28.000Is it possible that if this was like a life or death survival scenario, that like a tall man might be better in the military than like a small man?
00:31:35.000But we don't live in life and death scenarios of every single aspect of our lives.
00:31:38.000So we generally allow people to do things that make them happy.
00:31:41.000That's usually what we prioritize over what their bodies are intended to do.
00:31:44.000This is why we give insulin to people with diabetes and we don't let them die in the streets.
00:31:47.000This is why we have farmers that grow food for people that otherwise couldn't hunt for it.
00:31:50.000And it's why we enable people to make decisions in society that would otherwise make them happy, even if it's not 100% what they would have been born to do.
00:31:58.000We have probably the freest, most liberal society in America today.
00:32:01.000And tell me, You look at the suicide rate.
00:32:04.000You look at the rate at which people are consuming antidepressants.
00:32:06.000Do you really believe that given total and complete agency, absent tradition, absent the natural law, people are really happier than they were 100 years ago?
00:32:14.000Because I would probably disagree with that.
00:32:16.000And maybe people might say that people are less happy because they're forced to conform to certain expectations or Republicans or white supremacy.
00:32:25.000But I think we all know that the pursuit of happiness ends in misery.
00:32:29.000The pursuit of satisfaction, of fulfillment, living in accordance with our nature is what affords people happiness.
00:32:35.000That deeper happiness, that deeper satisfaction, that people are acting according to their teleological purpose, people having a purpose.
00:32:44.000So, for example, I would posit that a mother who has five children and took time to raise them and know them and rear them in the way that she wanted to according to her morals, I imagine that that mother is probably more happy than a 20 year old girl who decides that at her peak childbearing age she's going to get educated and have a career and she's going to go make spreadsheets for something.
00:33:08.000Do you think that they didn't know any better?
00:33:14.000It was a minority argument quite frequently, and yet you don't want to admit that women may personally feel, perhaps personally feel, that they want to also participate in society in meaningful ways?
00:34:10.000Yeah, um, I was asking, like, obviously.
00:34:13.000People can do, like they can be a mother of five or they can do spreadsheets.
00:34:18.000And I think the question here, and what this ties back to with the transgender military ban, is the fact that they actually don't have that choice.
00:34:26.000And do you think that it's fair in a free society to prevent people from doing what they want to do?
00:34:34.000And I think, and I'm going to answer this question directly, the problem with this kind of idea is that we at once want a culture where People are encouraged to make the right decisions, but maybe they have a little bit of liberty to maneuver outside that.
00:34:49.000And this is a pretty open ended question because the question is at what point do you say you have so much liberty that you get a society like we have today?
00:34:57.000Because I would say, for example, today, I think a lot of people who come at this issue where I come from would say that we have a society that is corrupt, which is misguided, which is to a great extent, there's a lot of evil, there's a lot of misery, which is self inflicted.
00:35:10.000And we would say, well, on the one hand, we would like a little bit of liberty.
00:35:14.000At what point backwards in history can we trace back the moment when it led to this inevitable consequence where it's a free for all?
00:35:24.000So, I would probably say you look at maybe like 60 years ago, for example.
00:35:29.000And although there were not laws against certain things, there was a culture which discouraged people from sort of stepping outside of line.
00:35:37.000I think that's probably what we have to have.
00:35:39.000But I don't think you're able to do that without a long tradition of these traditions and natural instincts and so forth being put into the legal code.
00:35:59.000I don't necessarily, yeah, I don't think this is necessarily a tricky issue.
00:36:02.000It just like, well, like, unfortunately, like, this conversation, we're talking past each other because there are more fundamental things that need to be resolved, right?
00:36:08.000But like, my answer is always going to be that people should be allowed to fail rather than forced to be relegated into some role that society has predetermined is optimal for them.
00:36:16.000That generally in Western society, like, for instance, you talk about like a mother having five kids is happier than a CEO or whatever.
00:36:22.000That may or may not be true, but we would say a woman should be allowed to choose what she wants to do.
00:36:26.000If a man is born and he happens to be a little bit, You know, more powerful than another man by the time he goes through puberty for whatever reason, we wouldn't tell that man, you know, stop working on computers.
00:36:34.000You need to go to the mines and work because, you know, you're a stronger man.
00:36:37.000We generally in liberal society let people make these decisions because that's just the thing we've decided to value.
00:36:42.000I mean, I guess we can go fundamental and try to argue on, I guess, more collectivist stuff versus like liberal stuff.
00:36:47.000But that seems to be the case that we've made today.
00:36:52.000This idea that we've been like on this inevitable path towards destruction, you know, solely due to liberalism, I don't know if that's necessarily true, right?
00:37:00.000You know, you could argue that capitalism, for instance, is the result of a lot of these things.
00:37:03.000The fact that we prioritize profits and companies over anything related to happiness in society probably encourages a lot of people that aren't happy.
00:37:10.000The explosion of technological growth is something that also has probably gone against a lot of people's happiness, people's obsessive use of Facebook or other social medias that kind of fuck with their heads and whatnot.
00:37:20.000Now, maybe in your society, you would argue that you have the ability to legislate against that harder.
00:37:24.000You would do something like make social media illegal if it was contrary to a society or something.
00:37:28.000But I don't think that most people, in at least liberal societies today, would be okay with that.
00:37:31.000The idea that some, essentially like a Catholic dictator, Or a theologian would kind of dictate to them, you know, this is what you ought to do in society.
00:37:38.000You ought not be allowed to engage in this because it's against, like, the natural order or the natural role of what humans ought to do.
00:37:43.000I don't think Muskie would be very satisfied with that type of society.
00:37:46.000Well, the trick really is Can I ask a question?
00:38:07.000So, I would argue that you have some responsibility to participate in society in a way that's not detrimental to other people.
00:38:14.000But I mean, as long as you're not necessarily hurting other people, then I think that for the most part, your rights should be respected to do what you want.
00:38:20.000But what if this actually leads to the end of the society?
00:38:37.000Let's assume that women just decide they're not going to have children.
00:38:42.000I mean, I think I would be that's a rough one, but I think I would be more okay with that than saying that, like, you are going to become the birthers and now you need to have children.
00:38:53.000I mean, it's interesting, like, Nick posits this idea that people have these natural roles that they want to fill, but you know, in the World War II era, you know, it was attempted in several countries to incentivize people to have more children.
00:39:04.000You know, people offered these massive payouts to people with more children.
00:39:06.000There were penalties if you didn't have enough.
00:39:37.000Well, that's a really heavy question on whether or not you have a moral responsibility to supersede an individual person's liberty in order to further the human race by forcing them to have children.
00:39:46.000I'm not saying it supersedes your liberty.
00:39:47.000I'm saying it gives you a duty and obligation.
00:39:50.000Also, I'm uncomfortable on the empirical grounds.
00:39:52.000I don't know about the Denmark thing, but I know that in World War II, like, I know that there were several countries that tried to heavily incentivize people to have children and it failed.
00:41:50.000It's actually freed us from all of the necessary bonds that we had in previous eras because most people just weren't free enough to be able to choose a life without a family or without having the various conditions thrust upon them by nature.
00:42:06.000So, would you take back time and go back to an era where technological developments weren't at the place that it's at and people weren't as economically stable, I guess, as they are on average in developed Western nations in an effort to ensure that the birth rates are similar?
00:42:24.000How much do you personally, Sargon, care about protecting the Western race in a similar fashion to Nick?
00:42:31.000I just want to understand and distinguish your thoughts from his.
00:44:07.000Because if it is a good idea, if we do think that maybe the West actually figured morality out better than the rest of the world, we do have an obligation to keep that going.
00:44:16.000Because otherwise, we're going to get people who are not believers in Western values, who do not come from Western cultures, who are just simply going to exist longer than we will.
00:44:25.000And we'll basically forget about us when we're gone.
00:44:42.000So let's say that you have a family, and this family, I'm sorry, I say family, a husband and wife, okay?
00:44:48.000These two people want to be programmers.
00:44:50.000You think that you have the moral authority to tell them, no, you are going to have children because you have to, because we have an obligation to continue Western society.
00:45:02.000Let's say that you think that you have a society full of people that could better allocate themselves into jobs where they would be personally happier.
00:45:07.000Do you think that you have the moral authority to push so much kind of cultural norms to these people that some of them decide to have children instead?
00:45:15.000I think that we can have people who procreate and work at the same time.
00:45:20.000Well, yeah, but it seems like given the option to choose to have children, people seem not to if they have the ability not to.
00:45:25.000That seems to be, I mean, for all that Nick talks about like natural choices, that seems to be naturally what happens.
00:45:30.000If you look at countries as living up more.
00:45:32.000It's absolutely like that's an outcome of the current economic climate.
00:45:37.000No, This is like a very well observed phenomenon.
00:45:40.000As countries enter first world status, people just have less children.
00:45:43.000They don't need to have as many children to work.
00:46:01.000Before we get fully into foundational philosophy, I just want to, I really want to understand.
00:46:07.000What you mean when you talk about Western civilization, can you point to a specific example that does not include other cultures and other civilizations and other technological achievements created in, like, the Islamic culture, for example, in the golden age of Islam, that the Western civilization has backed on, that has built itself upon?
00:46:30.000Hassan, I'm not saying that Western civilization has not been influenced by other civilizations.
00:47:21.000More importantly, the thing that I'm trying to understand.
00:47:27.000Look, why are we trying to preserve civilization or Western civilization or why are we trying to make sure that mankind continues is an interesting conversation, I guess.
00:47:37.000What I'm specifically trying to understand right now is that why we're talking about birth rates without talking about the actual factors that contribute to birth rates declining.
00:47:46.000We know that it's technological achievements, is one of them.
00:47:51.000Immigrant cultures that are also coming in, or immigrants that are coming into like American society and integrating into American society, and by the third generation, completely adapting and their birth rates adjusting to the existing like ethnic groups that are already living in America or in Western civilization in general.
00:48:12.000This is consistent across time and it's consistent in all of these other countries.
00:48:16.000So, when we talk about like the declining of the birth rates, it's not a matter of like other people are coming in and replacing the original like ethnicity.
00:48:25.000Of that country, it's more so that people are actually fucking less, quite frankly, because they have more access to technology and they're wealthier and they get, you know, they use condoms and shit.
00:48:45.000Because what you've identified correctly is that this is a malaise that is going to affect humanity eventually when all nations will eventually reach a sort of level of technological expertise and wealth where.
00:48:58.000The question is really do we have a responsibility to what we've inherited to pass that down to someone, or are we allowed to be selfish enough to be the end point of that?
00:49:29.000The summary of my point, like, fuck, Nick said so many dumb things that I didn't get to respond to.
00:49:33.000The idea that, like, that earlier statement, this is like a really common thing about, like, do we really want to send our wives and daughters off to die in war?
00:49:39.000I mean, do we want to send our husbands and sons off to die in war?
00:50:08.000I mean, looking at you, I'm not talking shit, but we're both pretty fucking small people.
00:50:10.000There's a decent chance that whichever women you and me wind up with will probably be more equipped to defend their houses than we would be.
00:50:15.000We're just going to refer to Rhonda Rousey.
00:50:18.000I know most women and the average women are Rhonda Rousey.
00:50:22.000The average woman is probably around your same size still, Nick, and probably maybe a little bit bigger.
00:50:26.000So I wouldn't be talking this big shit, okay?
00:50:28.000I don't think he's going to fly with your audience.
00:50:31.000My friend, you really want to go there?
00:50:32.000I don't give a fuck about my audience.
00:50:34.000I think my audience is probably fantasized by other stuff than that.
00:51:11.000Now, I wouldn't like hardcore, I wouldn't look to naturalism or open a Bible passage to tell me who ought to be defending our property.
00:51:16.000In general, I don't think that I want a society where my decisions are hardcore relegated to me from a top down approach, whether that's a governmental system or a theocratic system or some other moral arbiter or moral police, I guess, telling me what I ought to do.
00:51:31.000I think that generally in a liberal society, I'm going to be allowed to make those decisions, and I think other people should be allowed to make those decisions.
00:51:35.000And if you want to make it, can I respond to that?
00:51:39.000Honestly, these are really great points, and I wish we had more time to dwell on them.
00:51:44.000But the thing is, society itself is kind of the moral arbiter.
00:51:48.000There isn't really any independent moral decision making, really, in society.
00:51:53.000So, I mean, at the end of the day, you're constrained by that whether you like it or not.
00:51:58.000Yeah, but we're talking about how you perform that society, right?
00:52:00.000Yeah, but again, it really does come down to the sort of should we be able to just end society?
00:52:24.000Yeah, I mean, I have a responsibility to my son, but I don't know if I have a responsibility to like my great, grandkids to make sure society still exists.
00:53:27.000I mean, honestly, at this point, it's men who we have to start worrying about actually being engaged in society because men are the ones checking out and just getting minimum wage jobs, drinking beer, playing Xbox, and living with each other well into their 30s, like yourself, probably, in fact.
00:53:46.000You're the one who's not going out and engaging in society, are you?
00:53:56.000And usually, yeah, the government was the purview of men because.
00:54:00.000I mean, hell, honestly, mate, it was a way of getting them to do something because they become wasteful and destructive if they don't.
00:54:07.000But it's one of the things that's important.
00:54:09.000Women's participation in other marginalized communities' participation in society greatly predicated on how much political power they had that gave them access to even join these sorts of clubs to begin with.
00:54:18.000Unless you assume that women's role in society is just to be the caretaker, and that they're going to be the ones doing that, you have to realize that political action in this respect is incredibly important for women, and then they were able to achieve that only recently.
00:54:33.000So obviously, they didn't have that same kind of.
00:54:44.000Also excluded from participating in certain activities.
00:54:47.000Without political power, they were not able to actually go out and open these environments so that they could also participate in them, including the workforce.
00:55:42.000The actual sort of health of the society, like, Think about like in, was it World War I or II, where they went around giving out white roses and stuff like this.
00:55:50.000You know, that's not going to happen now.
00:55:52.000No one's going to, there's not going to be any kind of social pressure.
00:55:54.000All the social pressure was always driven by women.
00:55:57.000And that's not a bad thing or anything like that.
00:57:48.000The as of yet not publicly available Mueller report was finally published after a two year investigation into the possibility that the Trump campaign colluded with the Russian government.
00:57:58.000Despite an unprecedented level of access to any political campaign, $30 million spent, 500 witnesses interviewed, 19 lawyers retained as a special counsel, 40 dedicated FBI staff anchored to the investigation, and 500 search warrants executed, it found zero evidence of any collusion.
00:58:15.000There wasn't enough to charge even a low-level volunteer with any form of tampering or improper electoral conduct related to Russia.
00:58:21.000Given how many news networks had reported, inaccurately, that Russian collusion had occurred and that the proof of collusion would be forthcoming, Does this outcome not validate Trump's claims about media bias against its administration?
00:58:34.000Well, I think that last time we let Sargon and Nick go first.
00:58:37.000So, Destiny or Hassan, whichever one of you two wants to start that off, go ahead.
00:58:49.000Well, it's a two part discussion, right?
00:58:50.000The first part, obviously, is about Trump and the Mueller report.
00:58:54.000And the second part is more about how Trump was talking about fake news and the role that fake news had played in the Mueller report and the whole investigation on Trump.
00:59:02.000I mean, I have my own personal perspective on this, but I think Destiny and I might disagree on it a little bit.
00:59:07.000I just want to hear his side first and let him describe, and then we can talk about it.
00:59:12.000Yeah, so firstly, the Mueller report in itself hasn't been made available to the public yet.
00:59:16.000I don't remember if the House committee got it yet or not.
00:59:18.000I don't know where they're at on that status, but supposedly they're going through some redactions for the full report to get released to the public, I think, as long as McConnell or whatever doesn't stop that from happening.
00:59:27.000That being said, this idea that there was no proof of.
00:59:32.000Fuck, there are a million different ways to go this.
00:59:34.000The idea that there was no proof of collusion or any of that, that's not necessarily true.
00:59:38.000I think that what the attorney general's summary, what Barr's summary of the Mueller report was, is that there wasn't enough to like maybe actually press charges.
00:59:45.000There's like a million different ways that that can be read.
00:59:47.000We don't 100% know until we actually have the report, you know, itself.
00:59:51.000So the idea that you can already say, well, the media was reporting things that was incorrect isn't necessarily true because those things might actually be borne out in the Mueller report.
00:59:58.000However, maybe Mueller didn't feel like there's enough here to like 100% nail anybody to the wall on conspiracy against the United States.
01:00:07.000The only thing that we can speculate here is look, Attorney General Barr was appointed to this position specifically because he said that the bar to prove collusion is going to be incredibly high.
01:00:20.000And even beyond that, most importantly, obstruction of justice, even if it's proven, does not matter if that bar for collusion can be passed.
01:00:29.000So we already know that obstruction of justice occurred.
01:00:31.000So this is more so a matter of was there.
01:00:36.000We already know that obstruction of justice occurred because Trump went on national television and in front of millions of people on Lester Holt's channel said, I stopped James Comey.
01:00:46.000I stopped the investigation because he was searching, because he was looking into the Russia investigation.
01:00:52.000Now, I myself, unlike some members of the Young Turks who have a different perspective, thought that the Russia collusion narrative was a little self serving.
01:01:02.000I talked about it quite frequently here on Twitch.
01:01:03.000I talked about it in my coverage as well.
01:01:05.000Originally, I thought it was very sketchy, and I do think that it was a good investigation to conduct, absolutely, given the fact that Russia had conclusively tried to meddle in our elections.
01:01:14.000And beyond that, Trump had asked Russia to, again, on national television, hack into the DNC.
01:01:21.000So, obviously, that I think is enough for anyone to set up this sort of investigation.
01:01:28.000I don't think people were actually against it at the time.
01:01:32.000What happened, however, is that they focused too much on the collusion aspect of it.
01:01:36.000And the reason why they focused too much on the collusion aspect of it, I think, especially on the liberal side, is because they wanted to justify why the hive mother Hillary Clinton lost to a demented dipshit man child like Donald Trump.
01:01:49.000So they continuously pushed this narrative and they.
01:01:52.000In some respects, similar to the fucking QAnon crowd on the right, lost their minds and started attributing everything, including even people like myself who were further to the left than the average Democrat, as Kremlin agents who were causing problems.
01:02:08.000The real issues in America are deeply ingrained in American body politic.
01:02:13.000So, like, when Russia can easily, by spending what, a million dollars in ad spend, change the outcome of a fucking election, then maybe we have to stop.
01:02:22.000That conversation on whether or not Hillary Clinton lost because Russia was helping Donald Trump, or take a good hard look at how American politics is conducted and what our problems are as far as white supremacy, racism, as far as economic inequality, and all of these things that Russia could easily trigger some sort of outrage over with a couple dollars spent in the right direction on the internet, which I don't even know if this is legal or not.
01:03:02.000Now, on top of that, however, the reason why we know for a fact that there was nothing like no, like Attorney General Barr did not indict anyone on the report is because the bar was set incredibly high and it didn't matter if there was obstruction of justice or not.
01:03:21.000Well, and to be clear, I think Barr said that Barr's very narrow interpretation that I don't think most legal scholars agree with is that obstruction of justice can't occur if the crime itself didn't occur.
01:03:30.000So, for instance, what Barr is saying is that if collusion or More specifically, if conspiracy against the United States can't be proved, then there's no way he could have obstructed justice against it, which a lot of people take issue with that.
01:03:40.000Which is, and my personal perspective on this, beyond everything else that we've talked about and beyond like other people's coverage and like liberals' coverage, is that 100% we should continuously push for transparency, see the entire report.
01:03:52.000But I think every single person who is even remotely sane understands that Donald Trump is not only a most likely a criminal, but also a really bad one at that and constantly fucking stumbles.
01:04:07.000And the fact that they just narrowly focused and tried to cover their own asses, both the media apparatus and also the DNC tried to cover their own asses by promoting this message that only we should be looking at Russian involvement in the election was really counterproductive.
01:04:37.000My worry is that, like, my worry is that what's going to happen, I'm just looking at it from an optics, pragmatic point of view, is that there are a lot of Democrats that are very fucking desperate to pin the Russia shit on Trump.
01:04:46.000And if the report ends up getting released, they're going to find like one or two lines in there and they're going to make it all about that.
01:04:50.000And they're going to throw the 2020 election away because they obsess over a couple things in the Mueller report that they probably should let go.
01:04:55.000I mean, like, overall, it should probably be released.
01:04:57.000I just hope that Democrats don't go full fucking moron with it or whatever.
01:06:18.000It was Donald Trump's campaign manager while he ran for president.
01:06:21.000So it would have been involved with him, right?
01:06:22.000That's precisely why I think that the Russia investigation was worthwhile because Paul Manafort had worked with other Russian oligarchs, which I reported on back in fucking August 2016.
01:06:32.000I'm just saying it's possible that somebody around Trump could have gotten him to do a business.
01:06:46.000It's a red herring because, I mean, Trump's base doesn't care.
01:06:50.000The two and a half year investigation has come to an end.
01:06:52.000No further indictments, no further investigation.
01:06:55.000It's a dead issue, and I think the left is absolutely foolish for pursuing it.
01:07:00.000But you've got idiots like Rachel Maddow is going to double down and destroy themselves trying to pin something on Trump that, like you say, Destiny is.
01:07:07.000So you actually agree with Destiny on this?
01:07:09.000Oh, I think their analysis is generally quite correct.
01:07:14.000I think they're right on what they're saying.
01:07:15.000I think it's not really something that's worth pursuing.
01:07:18.000I like that my perspective changed after the report came out, where I originally was like, oh, we shouldn't pursue this.
01:07:23.000But I think as a political move, we absolutely should.
01:07:27.000The Democrats should absolutely fucking continue to push this.
01:07:30.000Not the narrative that there's collusion, but the narrative that crimes had been committed.
01:07:34.000We know the campaign finance violations that were pretty flagrant.
01:07:38.000I think that the fact that we would just throw out this two year long investigation after the Republicans openly admitted that they utilized and weaponized the Benghazi investigation.
01:08:14.000Basically, I think it was essentially a red herring on the wrong, and if the Democrats don't let it go, they're going to destroy themselves on it.
01:08:35.000And actually, And nobody has pointed out, actually, everybody has failed to mention the fact that there were indictments delivered in the course of the investigation.
01:09:09.000The Russians were indicted separately from everybody else.
01:09:12.000They were indicted for trying to meddle in the election.
01:09:15.000That's something Destiny and Hassan got right, that the Russians did attempt to meddle.
01:09:18.000It wasn't tied directly to the Russian state, but they did find Russians who were buying Facebook ads.
01:09:23.000I believe it was two companies and 13 individuals.
01:09:25.000And they also found that something like six American individuals, people like Manafort, Papadopoulos, a number of others, were indicted as part of the investigation.
01:09:35.000Every single indictment that was brought down, even against low level people, all the indictments had nothing to do with.
01:09:41.000It was either lying to the FBI, which is something that everybody knows.
01:10:48.000But if we are going to talk about specifically the Mueller investigation, you know, I just don't think you can look at the size, the scope, the indictments, the media pressure, everything that was going on, all the access that was given, and come away with that and say, oh, they just didn't find it.
01:11:05.000I mean, Mueller had all the time in the world, and they were covering that every night on MSNBC and CNN, talking about Sergey Kizilyak and Jeff Sessions, even though Sessions was the chief of the Foreign Policy Subcommittee in the Senate.
01:11:17.000So, I just think it's totally ridiculous.
01:11:20.000But even if it did happen, wouldn't care.
01:11:22.000Frankly, I don't think it was that big of a deal, even if it happened.
01:11:26.000Well, how do you think the media's role in the reporting of this Mueller investigation affected them in any way or affected Trump's presidency or potentially his reelection?
01:11:51.000One man against like 95% of legacy media, which is print, television, and radio, just about all of them, with the exception of Fox News and Rush Limbaugh, are beating the same old drums about these media companies.
01:13:35.000So when you talk about YouTube, now you want to point to the one Young Turks network, but if I talk about the totality of conservative YouTube creators, now you're going to narrow it to cable news.
01:13:43.000Yes, you do have to look at the whole picture.
01:13:47.000Hey, guys, can I just go ahead and deliver some information here?
01:13:56.000The Russia investigation is largely frivolous, but I think the government conducts a lot of frivolous investigations and then weaponizes it politically.
01:14:04.000And I think if anyone would disagree with me on this perspective, either they weren't around during the election coverage like, you know, a couple years back, where they consistently talked about Benghazi and Hillary Clinton's emails as a consequence of the Benghazi investigation.
01:14:18.000And the reason why I'm bringing that up is because Kevin McCarthy, the Senate House Majority Leader, openly admitted that they used the Benghazi investigation, which took a longer time than the JFK.
01:14:31.000Uh, the JFK assassination and Watergate investigation combined, which took a longer time than the 9 11 investigation, they used that to weaponize it against Hillary Clinton, who already sucked, mind you, but they effectively used that and consistently talked about it, and they still do.
01:14:46.000I mean, Sean Hannity still fucking brings up Benghazi every now and then.
01:15:25.000Not to say that I'm so mad that the government is spending money.
01:15:28.000The government spends money every day that we don't even know about.
01:15:31.000The point is to say that they had every resource at their disposal and they were not able to come up with enough evidence to indict anybody, not even the president, anybody by collusion.
01:16:26.000Of people that aren't like mainstream media, so like John Oliver or whatever, of just people that are like YouTube personalities, here's the top 10 list that I have for views in the last 30 days and millions of people, okay?
01:16:36.000You have one and two are the Young Turks and Philip DeFranco.
01:16:38.000If you want to consider Philip DeFranco, I guess you could call him left.
01:18:00.000If you exclude Jimmy Kimmel, who talks about his son and why we need Obamacare and the individual mandate on a show, yeah, if you exclude Jimmy Kimmel and John Oliver and all the other big ones on YouTube, and you look at the top 10, yeah, the top two are left and a few in the top five are left.
01:18:15.000But look at all these, I mean, only under very narrow definitions, qualifying it totally arbitrarily, can you in any way, shape, or form say that there's a quality or a conservative advantage in media?
01:18:26.000Please, what puts you in the comments?
01:18:28.000Let's say, for instance, all of Twitch was right leaning.
01:18:31.000Let's say, for a hypothetical, all of Twitch is right leaning.
01:18:33.000And then let's say that every now and then Obama comes on and gives some, he's working for some charity thing, and they do a political thing on Twitch.
01:18:41.000And that's the only time they're the only thing related to that.
01:18:43.000He's not a Twitch streamer or whatever.
01:18:45.000And in those times, let's say they get more views than anybody else on Twitch.
01:18:48.000I don't know if you would then say, well, Twitch has a fair representation of left versus right because sometimes Obama doesn't do it.
01:20:35.000I would love to engage with this study a little bit further and get back to you, but immediately the first thing I see is Jimmy Kimmel Live when I scroll my mouse over it.
01:20:43.000And that is a little suspicious to me because Jimmy Kimmel Live had one segment where he talked about his daughter's cancer, and it's literally the largest.
01:20:52.000It's after The Late Show with Stephen Colbert, it's the largest.
01:20:57.000And the fact that you would use clips such as, hey, Jimmy Kimmel goes out and talks to children on the street as how powerful leftist media is on the internet is kind of, it just kind of makes it sound like it's disingenuous for you to say, I believe, that Jimmy Kimmel only referenced something political once.
01:21:19.000I think he does bring that up similarly.
01:21:21.000Okay, Jimmy Kimmel talking about politics and being compared, being put up against No Bullshit, for example, which is a political YouTuber.
01:21:29.000In the same study is absolute madness.
01:21:32.000If you look at the top few Jimmy Kimmel clips, the first three are going to be political, and then the overwhelming majority are just going to be commentary or mostly comedy.
01:21:41.000It's crazy to me that you matter if they were equally personally studied.
01:21:47.000So, I see people listed on here like Philip DeFranco, okay?
01:21:50.000Philip DeFranco is somebody that I would consider political.
01:21:53.000I'm pretty sure, fuck, I haven't done this, but I'm pretty sure if I go to Philip DeFranco's channel and I sort by top, all of his most popular shit is going to be political.
01:22:31.000You can't use it to boost your numbers.
01:22:33.000You can't just drop random shit in there just because they every now and then talk about political subjects, but for the most part are comedians.
01:22:46.000Do you think like Fox News and I mean, maybe not even Joe Rogan, but like Norm McDonald and Fox News is not an app comparison.
01:22:53.000Norm McDonald is a conservative, but I would never consider like a Norm McDonald YouTube channel to be like, hey, this is actually a right wing political podcast.
01:23:01.000Actually, I'm actually, no, I'm actually going to take a hard disagree with Hassan here.
01:23:59.000Why is no bullshit in Sargon of Akkad mentioned in this if they don't really talk about policy that frequently, but mostly talk about social commentary in the culture war?
01:24:30.000It's silly to put Jimmy Kimmel and then not put PewDiePie.
01:24:32.000If you're not going to put PewDiePie in there, you shouldn't be putting Jimmy Kimmel in there.
01:24:35.000My point isn't to look at the study at all because I have no idea what the fuck this study is.
01:24:41.000And beyond that, it doesn't seem like a reasonable study.
01:24:44.000I think the more interesting question is why do you guys have a problem with accepting left wing media dominance?
01:24:52.000Because conservatives usually use this to push this narrative that, like, oh no, we have no voice anywhere, when it's just not true.
01:24:58.000There's plenty of voices in conservative media on YouTube, on radio, even on print, arguably.
01:25:04.000And then on cable news, Fox News is still the largest cable network in the United States.
01:25:07.000Like, this idea that conservatives have no voice anywhere while they control both halves of Congress, while they have the president, like, it's just really strange.
01:25:58.000And this is what I mean by obfuscation.
01:25:59.000You're going to say that because Tucker Carlson and Fox News have a big presence, they have a big network, that this outweighs, if we're looking at the scale here, that this outweighs, again, ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, all the networks.
01:26:14.000And then you factor in the corporations.
01:26:16.000Then you factor in the fact that somebody at Media Matters doesn't like what Tucker Carlson says, and you've got an advertiser boy.
01:27:24.000Okay, the only times I try to interrupt is because I genuinely want to understand Nick's perspective or if he's saying something that I just, I'm not very.
01:27:53.000I mean, like, I probably would, but that's really fucking hard because, like, I mean, based on my engagement with the media, it seems to be that way.
01:28:01.000But for instance, if you go to like certain parts of the country, if you like, you know, Nick is here to laugh off talk radio, I'm pretty sure talk radio actually reaches like more customers than even fucking Facebook does.
01:29:00.000This idea that we somehow like segued also from like, is media popular to are people restricting advertisements to certain people?
01:29:06.000That's like the most non sequitur thing I've heard in my entire life.
01:29:09.000If you want to argue about like, are right leaning views more popular to advertisers than left leaning views, of course I'm going to agree that left leaning views are more popular.
01:29:14.000Tucker Carlson almost fucking took a hard right into white nationalism.
01:29:28.000Now, is the media, you know, like slanted to the left in terms of their bias?
01:29:32.000You know, my engagement with media is generally on the internet, which is going to be more left leaning than, say, somebody's engagement who's only on like talk radio or local news, right?
01:29:46.000And I don't think you can do it with a study that lists Jimmy Kimmel as a left wing political commentator on YouTube.
01:29:52.000Nick or Sargon, any responses to that?
01:29:54.000I mean, it's just, um, It's just utterly ridiculous.
01:29:56.000If you're going to deny this basic reality, there was a study that was done by the Media Research Center a couple of months ago, which said that it was like 92% of coverage was against Trump.
01:30:06.000And I don't think it's so strange that 92% of coverage was against Trump.
01:30:09.000It shouldn't be with the interruptions, right?
01:30:12.000It just, look, we can disagree about obviously the Mueller report and we can disagree about whether the coverage was accurate or not.
01:30:19.000But to me, if we can't even agree, if it's such a controversial thing to say, the media has a left wing bias, that culture making institutions generally in America or You know, just major conglomerates in America.
01:30:31.000I mean, if we're going to pretend like that institutional bias doesn't exist, I mean, I don't even know how we're supposed to have a conversation.
01:30:37.000It feels like you're living in another world.
01:30:38.000I mean, especially given what I do for a living.
01:30:41.000You know how hard it is to make a living trying to just fake common sense right wing things without them coming for your Discord, your Streamlabs, your YouTube, your Facebook, your Twitter?
01:30:51.000What did they just pass the other week on Facebook?
01:30:52.000I mean, it's just, I really do feel like we're living in two different dimensions here.
01:30:56.000If you're going to try and sit here and say that the people that run these social media.
01:31:07.000That's a really funny meme, and I unfortunately have to kind of.
01:31:10.000Provide a little bit more perspective, a little bit more background into what Nick is trying to say.
01:31:15.000Oftentimes, when people come for specific channels or Discord servers and whatnot, if it's not led by right wing people like Destiny, the conquest that ended up with Destiny losing his Twitter account, which happens quite frequently to the members of the left as well.
01:31:32.000But more often than not, it's for things like Tucker Carlson defending a child rapist on a talk show or Tucker Carlson calling Arabs.
01:31:40.000Primitive apes or primitive monkeys on a talk show.
01:31:44.000Now, beyond that, if Tucker Carlson's white nationalism gets to a point where it's not profitable, unfortunately, that's capitalism, baby.
01:31:51.000If you hate that, then maybe you should reconsider what your perspective is on capitalism.
01:31:55.000Yeah, but that's not just capitalism, is it?
01:32:05.000There are very, very well funded and well engaged and well staffed and well manned on social media.
01:32:13.000Networks of activist groups that are very, very insistent on getting people like Tucker Carlson defunded.
01:32:20.000It's actually somewhat of a fucking cancer to the dialogue, and it's making the left look like a predatory group of people who are out for blood the way that they try to hurt people at every given turn.
01:32:31.000And it's not something that, like, nobody's seen.
01:32:34.000I mean, surely you guys are well aware that things like Media Matters, Hope Not Hate, all these sort of activist organizations are well connected and do a lot of damage to their political opponents.
01:33:11.000What the media companies are going to do is, as soon as it becomes politically expedient to do so, they're going to throw their money in that direction.
01:33:17.000This idea that some media company is going to stake its reputation on progressive values is hilariously stupid.
01:33:23.000There is no board of directors that no CEO has walked in front of and said, Listen, trans people might not be popular, but I think we're going to go ahead and push our company in that direction anyway.
01:33:58.000They did it because they knew it would make a fuck ton of money.
01:34:00.000Because there are a lot of people across the entire fucking world that engage with types of media and having more diversity helps and shit like that.
01:34:48.000If that was true, then why didn't we get a Black Panther movie like this like 20 years ago or more women in media 20 years ago?
01:34:52.000Because this is a new, this particular variant of politics is a relatively recent phenomenon and it's taken the media establishment, the Hollywood establishment by storm.
01:35:02.000There's a way no one with any kind of director might have personal political goals, but that doesn't change the underlying reality that Destiny's trying to get you.
01:35:12.000To understand, which is that big corporations are never going to fund a movie just for political purposes.
01:35:17.000And if you were to understand this a little bit better, we would make the comparison between whoever the director of Black Panther was, which I don't even know, versus Boots Riley, an outspoken, avowed communist who's been a director of Black Panther.
01:35:30.000Listen, the reason why Boots Riley, sorry to bother you, is an indie movie that makes a decent amount of money but still is not being funded by these sorts of like, you know, some Chinese corporation or whatever, and Black Panther is, is because Black Panther is.
01:35:45.000Actually, trying to make money versus the other one is genuinely trying to promote social change.
01:35:57.000So, there are loads of examples of movies that have not done well because of an excessive focus on politics.
01:36:02.000With things like Black Panther, you're lucky because you're stumbling, and same with Captain Marvel, you're stumbling into a kind of cultural pocket that is capable of both pushing an agenda and making money.
01:36:15.000But these, there are many films that are just complete losses.
01:36:18.000I mean, I don't have a list off the top of my head.
01:36:47.000Disney owns 80% of the the theater these days.
01:36:50.000Didn't they just acquire the largest fucking.
01:36:52.000Yeah, I know, mate, but I don't think it's going to last forever.
01:36:55.000Look what they've done for the Star Wars franchise.
01:36:57.000Wait, is your argument genuinely that, like, Disney.
01:36:59.000Wait, I don't really watch your videos, Sargon, but is your argument actually that Disney is, like, that Disney has a moral objective to, like, make the world more progressive?
01:37:09.000And because of that, they're just, like, burning cash right now and they're failing?
01:37:46.000I'm saying the thing is more than the sum of its components, but the components within it are individual actors with their own agendas, and they come to these things with a particular perspective.
01:37:55.000And in many cases, to push a specific agenda.
01:37:58.000And this agenda is costing them money.
01:38:00.000They have their hits, but they have many losses as well.
01:38:04.000And it's something that I don't think is sustainable.
01:38:06.000I mean, haven't they stopped making Star Wars films at this point?
01:38:09.000Just to summarize your argument, what you're saying is that Disney as an organization or a corporation is not necessarily doing things politically, but there are people who are making decisions at Disney that do have political leanings that are doing that in order to.
01:38:22.000So you think like 75 year old executives at Disney are like thinking, we want gay rights.
01:38:27.000We really need to make the world more SJW.
01:38:29.000I'm a millionaire or a billionaire, an executive at Disney.
01:38:32.000He literally just said the opposite of that.
01:38:44.000Do you know why you know about Paul Freak's fucking political stances or why you know that some directors have.
01:38:49.000The reason why they do that is because capitalists that want to make money on their movies throw them onto the fucking media because they know reactionaries like you two are going to make a fuck ton of videos talking about them.
01:38:57.000Remember all the videos that were made about how Captain Marvel is going to fucking fail because Captain Marvel was so politicized in SJW?
01:39:03.000That movie went on to make over a billion fucking dollars.
01:39:05.000The only reason you know the political views of.
01:39:07.000Any of these fucking people is because the big companies put them out there so that they talk about it so that it drives up hype for the movie.
01:39:14.000I wish capitalism worked like how you thought it did, Sargon, because I would be such a stronger capitalist.
01:39:20.000But this idea that companies are actually putting morals ahead of just maximizing the amount of money they make for their business is comical.
01:39:26.000Even in fucking China, where the Black Panther was released, the fucking posters for that movie had to cover the actor's face because people in China don't really like black people that much.
01:39:34.000There's so much dumb shit that happens for people to make money.
01:39:40.000I'm beginning to realize that Sargon is genuinely a liberal because he unironically thinks that having more female prison guards is actually what the liberals are pushing.
01:40:16.000You guys can live in denial about this if you want.
01:40:18.000But the people who make these movies have morals of their own.
01:40:22.000And the people who fund these things have morals of their own.
01:40:24.000Of course, they obviously have physical, pragmatic, necessary requirements on them.
01:40:31.000And this is why I think that there's probably a lot going on behind the scenes about, well, probably serious conversations about the profitability of woke movies.
01:40:40.000And in many ways, they don't seem very profitable.
01:40:43.000But there's no doubt that there's a push towards this.
01:41:00.000I thought we were all making a lot of money.
01:41:06.000Isn't this like kind of your bread and butter?
01:41:07.000I'm surprised that you actually don't have any empirical data to back up your statements right now, given the fact that this is like the majority of our analysis, right?
01:41:15.000You're saying these movies are failing.
01:41:16.000Like, the two highest grossing movies last year were The Black Panther and The Avengers Infinity War.
01:41:21.000Your argument about the right wing media was that the two, just because the biggest were leftist, doesn't mean the majority.
01:41:27.000Well, aren't the majority of movies now like SJW propaganda?
01:41:30.000Isn't that like your argument that all the movies today are like all SJW shit?
01:41:33.000They all seem to still be making a fuck ton of money, right?
01:42:22.000Movies like Captain Marvel and Black Panther, but you could look at advertisements, you could look at sitcoms, you could look at video games.
01:42:27.000Why is it the case now that every movie I look at, the protagonist is there's a girl, but she's special?
01:42:34.000There's something different about her.
01:42:35.000She's actually kind of quirky and she's going to kick ass and save the world.
01:43:47.000So, and that this is controversial, that this is even an argument just shows how out of touch and disingenuous you guys are being because I think everybody knows the world we're living in.
01:44:20.000Before we move on to the next question, I love that you want to be taken seriously as a commentator, and yet you unironically get triggered by a black person and a white person kissing in a Netflix movie.
01:44:43.000If you think that movies have a moral interest in pushing a narrative and changing social culture beyond like the people who are trying to do it in like little ways, in the way that you apparently, you know, interracial mixing is also a problem.
01:44:56.000But beyond that, if you think that there is this larger idea, then you have to prove it.
01:45:01.000You have to tell me that like this doesn't just, this isn't just successful because people want to watch this sort of stuff.
01:45:07.000You have to show me that despite the fact that these companies are failing, they're still doing it.
01:45:11.000What do you consider proof in this regard?
01:45:29.000So in 2018, Disney's profits were down 18%, 17%, and they've canceled all the other Star Wars spin offs because they got woke and went broke.
01:45:49.000Do you see why identitarians get so mad at you?
01:45:51.000Because you just said that the prequels are shit because they're bad movies on their own merit, but the sequels were shit because of identity politics.
01:46:42.000The Jewish billionaires that you are so interested in and hate so much are concerned with their profits.
01:46:48.000The people down the chain who are interested in morals are the ones losing their money and they've cancelled the Star Wars films because the people further down the chain are fucking it up, pushing a moral message.
01:47:00.000I don't know how much clearer I can make.
01:47:02.000Can I just, I just want to give three facts real quick, real quick.
01:47:05.000The Force Awakens, the Force Awakens, wait, let Asma go, Asma go, please go ahead and then Destiny.
01:47:09.000I want to clarify what he's saying, just so everybody is on the same page here.
01:47:13.000What you're saying is that the people in the middle, Sargon, are basically making decisions that are making the people at the top lose money.
01:47:32.000The Force Awakens, okay, one of the most Cucked films of all time, okay?
01:47:36.000The story of a cucked white man getting taken over by a strong black man and a female lead made $2 billion, okay?
01:47:43.000The Last Jedi, another story of horrible, evil white men, blah, blah, blah, made $1.3 billion.
01:47:48.000These are the SJW failing horrible movies.
01:47:50.000But then our movie that has strong white lead male character Solo, that only made $392 million.
01:47:55.000That's, by the way, why those movies, why the Obi Wan movie is getting canceled, is because of how fucking horrible Solo did, which was a white, straight male.
01:48:02.000Do you think that they fucked that one up because.
01:48:05.000Do you think that instead, do you think instead of solo for having this, the white straight male, should they have like made like a female lead or a black lead?
01:48:11.000Do you think that would have been Rogue One Day?
01:48:55.000Because obviously, I think Sargon already admitted that the profit motive is still very much in effect when Hollywood factors in making new movies.
01:49:05.000I don't think we were arguing the same thing.
01:50:28.000It's frustrating for me because it's extremely distinct.
01:50:30.000Are you guys aware of how Hollywood works at all, or are you just speculating?
01:50:34.000There is no way that there is not a single movie that gets made for $200 million where every inch of that movie isn't regulated and goes all the way back to the financial institutions where they can take a look at what's going on and ensure that it's still profitable and means tested and market ready.
01:50:56.000Do you really think that they would not allow mid level people to just sneakily include.
01:51:16.000If it wasn't like that, they would never be able to get away with it, which is precisely why you can't honestly bring up a point where a company has gone under because they've tried social justice too much.
01:51:28.000I think this company has gotten to be a little bit ridiculous.
01:53:28.000Next one we want to talk about is the New Zealand church shooting.
01:53:31.000Now, the tragedy, and this is what we're going to be reading this off the same as Train did.
01:53:36.000The tragedy in Christchurch, New Zealand, where 50 people were killed and 50 others were injured while attending a mosque, has promoted many media outlets to ask what part of online content creators play.
01:53:46.000And the radicalization of terrorist attacks.
01:53:48.000The debate following the shooter's posting on 8chan, stating, subscribe to PewDiePie, and referencing many popular internet memes in a manifesto he released prior to the attack.
01:53:58.000He also stated plainly in said manifesto that he had done these things in order to try and sow dissent between the left and the right and try to further radicalize others, a point that hasn't stopped the subsequent calls for censorship.
01:54:12.000Does this panel honestly believe that the shooter was radicalized or directly incited to commit this crime by YouTubers and content creators he followed?
01:54:20.000And if so, is an appropriate response to deplatform anyone who is considered irresponsibly right wing?
01:54:26.000I think that we should start this off.
01:54:28.000Actually, Asmund, before we actually start this, I wanted to give you guys the opportunity.
01:54:33.000If any of you need to use the restroom or get a water, this would be the time.
02:02:06.000Well, no, I mean, I largely agree with you.
02:02:07.000To come to the middle a little bit, Nick, I kind of sort of, I mean, like, there's probably a chance, or I would say there's a high probability that any individual actor, not like an actor, but any individual player in large media might be able to push a little bit in some direction morally.
02:02:24.000Maybe if they want to cast an interracial, maybe they might have that much sway.
02:02:28.000I don't even know if I give them that much.
02:02:30.000But the massive idea that capitalism is an effective means to kind of push.
02:02:36.000Progressive societies, or to push like progression in moral systems.
02:02:40.000I think that businesses usually lag behind cultural trends like pretty hard when it comes to pushing, you know, unless it makes money.
02:02:54.000Um, I'm going to go ahead and re um go through it again, ask the question again, go over it.
02:02:59.000Um, for everyone that's new that missed it, um, that's in the chat, and for you guys, just kind of give you a little uh recap.
02:03:06.000Um, So, this next topic will be regarding the Christchurch shooting aftermath.
02:03:14.000The tragedy in Christchurch, New Zealand, where 50 people were killed and 50 others injured while attending a mosque, has prompted many media outlets to ask what part online content creators play in the radicalization of terrorist attackers.
02:03:27.000This debate, following the shooter's posting at 8chan, stating, subscribe to PewDiePie, and referencing many popular internet memes in the manifesto he released prior to the attack.
02:03:35.000He also stated plainly, In said manifesto, that he had done this, done these things in order to try and sow dissent between the left and right groups to try and further radicalize others.
02:03:45.000A point that hasn't stopped the subsequent calls for censorship.
02:03:48.000Does the panel honestly believe that the shooter was radicalized or directly incited to commit his crime by YouTubers and content creators he followed?
02:03:55.000And if so, is the appropriate response to de platform anyone who is considered irresponsibly right wing?
02:04:01.000I think the best place to start here would probably be Nick.
02:04:04.000I mean, he was part of the Charlottesville, you know, the.
02:04:36.000You know, I'll say at the outset that.
02:04:41.000Advocacy for violence by people on the right, and particularly the white identitarian or white advocacy, even people adjacent to that, is basically not tolerated.
02:04:51.000So, for example, if you look at any number of right wing or white identitarian content creators, you really can't find among them one that is explicitly calling for something like this.
02:05:02.000Even somebody like Richard Spencer, who I think everybody would say is the leader of the alt right and the progenitor of even the term alt right as the protege of.
02:05:12.000Paul Gottfried, they created that term.
02:05:14.000Even he doesn't say that you should go out and commit acts like this.
02:05:17.000So it's hard for me to say that there's a genesis for that in content creation explicitly.
02:05:24.000I will say, however, and this isn't whataboutism.
02:05:28.000I know people are going to say this is whataboutism, but I'll explain myself because it's an important point to make.
02:05:55.000But the important point to make here is that the natural consequence of multiracialism, the natural consequence of multiculturalism, is conflict.
02:06:04.000And so I see an act like this being carried out as basically inevitable.
02:06:07.000This is something I've been warning about for years.
02:06:10.000You know, a lot of people say that I'm alt right or a white nationalist.
02:06:14.000An alt right white nationalist type of person wants to create an ethnostate.
02:06:18.000They want to take America and either deport non white people or segment off their white separatists.
02:06:23.000They want to segment off a white section, secede, something like that, which is not something I believe in.
02:06:28.000I think that we've basically made our bed demographically.
02:06:34.000But I believe that there are certain consequences from this, which is that you have a lot of different people coming together with a lot of different values, a lot of different cultures, a lot of different beliefs.
02:06:44.000When they're all living in close proximity and they're fighting for the same resources from government, they're fighting for the same jobs and things like that, when they're, again, right up against each other, sharing the same transportation, sharing the same public facilities, and so on, the natural inclination.
02:07:08.000However, I don't think you can separate the consequence of this multiracialism policy so cleanly.
02:07:15.000You know, I think you see it everybody when they get smashed together, you get this kind of conflict.
02:07:20.000So, sure, you know, you could see that he probably uses some of the same talking points as a lot of YouTubers.
02:07:25.000You, you, you don't call for mosque shootings.
02:07:28.000But I think, regardless of who you look at or what content they look at, This is the consequence of a lot of different people, diversity, essentially, living together in one country.
02:07:39.000Do you think types of YouTubers led him in the direction of doing this?
02:07:43.000Maybe they didn't necessarily tell him, go shoot up a mosque, but they led him down the ideology that gave him the conclusion to shoot up a mosque.
02:07:52.000Well, insofar as he was stating facts about white displacement in white countries, you could say that he got that data, but that data is available from the government.
02:08:05.000Who was really culpable for this kind of thing is the censors, is the media.
02:08:10.000Because you want to know the truth, and this is something I've been talking about on my show for a long time.
02:08:14.000The reason you get violent people is they say, there's no way for me to fix what I see happening in the country through government or media.
02:08:38.000You know, a rational person does not say, I'm going to be a martyr, because obviously, not only are the effects the opposite of what you want, but also this is not, I mean, this is not something that an obscene, normal person does to go up and, you know, shoot up a place of worship.
02:08:52.000So I think that more than anybody who's culpable is the people saying that, you know, if we're trying to express grievance about what's happening to countries or what's happening with demographics, and that conversation is shut down, people are denied a seat at the table.
02:09:04.000I think the conclusion then is for certain types, for certain types of Psychopaths in the society is, well, I'll take matters into my own hand.
02:09:20.000So your argument basically is that this violence is an outcome of these people not feeling like they can achieve any sort of a change or be able to even approach a change on their own terms.
02:09:38.000Sargon, you have a YouTube channel, and a lot of people call you right wing.
02:09:43.000Accurate or inaccurate, that's what they say.
02:09:46.000Do you feel like this person was influenced at all by people on YouTube?
02:09:50.000Maybe not like yourself, but like other people that are on there that are making content that could lead him in this direction.
02:10:00.000I think it's a very misleading question to think that any one political direction ends in violence.
02:10:10.000The problem isn't that communities exist.
02:10:14.000The problem, I think that Nick actually really hit the nail on the head there, is when people feel that they cannot actually get any kind of legitimate.
02:10:30.000She didn't come from a deeply ideological community.
02:10:33.000I mean, she might have done, but that wasn't the reason that she did this.
02:10:36.000She went and did it because she just felt she had no rights against YouTube.
02:10:40.000And it was obviously something that was deeply important to her, the fact that she could make videos.
02:10:45.000So I think that it's kind of a red herring.
02:10:49.000Because, I mean, if it was the alt right that was just a So, effectively, like a jihadi community, then why aren't we seeing alt right murders literally every day, you know, like we do with jihadis?
02:11:00.000In fact, you know, it's not something that I think is necessarily inherent to any one community because, I mean, literally everyone has their shooters, you know, every single community.
02:11:10.000Point to a community, and I'll be able to point you to the shooters that come out of it.
02:11:15.000I think it's an act of desperation by individuals who just feel they just have nothing else to lose.
02:11:21.000So, you guys are in agreement there, basically.
02:11:23.000Well, yeah, on this particular analysis, yeah, I think.
02:12:21.000So, the question of whether or not a YouTuber made this particular guy go out and do a shooting is going to be really hard to establish that chain.
02:12:30.000If you did read this guy's manifesto, this guy was like an extreme alt right figure.
02:12:34.000So, for instance, he viewed all Muslims in every country as foreign invaders.
02:12:38.000And at this point, he thought that government was ineffective as a means to actually remove them from the country.
02:12:42.000So, like Nick said, he did feel like he couldn't rely on government to do something, but he wanted to rely on government to literally kick out all Muslims from New Zealand.
02:12:49.000So, he felt that he needed to go to a place and target and kill the most amount of Muslims possible.
02:12:55.000I don't know what the alternative to that is.
02:12:57.000If Nick is suggesting that maybe we need ways for these people to address their grievances about, Muslims existing in countries.
02:13:02.000I know that he vaguely referred to a couple of, I guess, attacks by migrants in other countries to show that migrants are bad or something.
02:13:10.000I am familiar with the one thing that he referenced.
02:13:13.000Yeah, I am familiar with the one that Italian hijacking, that dude that was going to blow that bus up.
02:13:17.000The person that actually stopped that from happening was actually a little Egyptian kid that Italy is now granting citizenship to because that 13 year old kid actually called his dad on the phone while he was pretending to pray while the guy was collecting phones.
02:13:31.000But regardless, I mean, I do think that like, Hateful rhetoric can lead to hateful acts of violence.
02:13:36.000I mean, that chain is to establish that is very complicated.
02:13:39.000You know, people maybe listen to a few jokes in one place, start posting on poll in another place, start getting drafted into more extremist groups, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
02:13:45.000There are a lot of people that are really good gateways for this.
02:13:46.000I mean, people have written up so many different types of studies for how you can start watching a Joe Rogan video and then go to Jordan Peterson and then wind up with more extremist figures like Nick Fuentes or maybe Lauren Southern or something like that.
02:13:57.000And then you eventually go down that extremist road.
02:14:00.000But establishing that chain is a very complicated, very difficult thing to do.
02:14:03.000But I mean, to deny it's possible, though, right?
02:14:08.000And also, I think at the beginning of your statement, you did kind of give a little bit of credence to Nick and also Sargon's point that maybe he acted out in this way because he didn't feel like.
02:14:19.000He was able to discuss these issues without being isolated or hated for it.
02:14:26.000But that doesn't mean that I think that those views are legitimate or need to be platformed.
02:14:30.000I think that's a bad dichotomy, right?
02:14:31.000If somebody says, like, I want to kill all black people, like, well, I'm going to fire you if you say that on Twitter, and then they go out and they actually kill black people because they got banned from Twitter, you wouldn't say, well, hold on.
02:14:38.000Like, should we be suppressing this man's views?
02:14:40.000He felt like he had no way to express them, and now he actually went, well, no.
02:14:43.000I mean, the idea is we need to not have people have these horrendously anti immigrant views in society, right?
02:14:48.000So views like Fuentes Bush's, for instance, where he seems to be anti immigrant or anti.
02:14:51.000Person of color, whatever, moving into certain countries where he feels like it violates their Western culture or whatever, however he dealt with it.
02:15:02.000So before we get started, I just want to say I want to commend Nick for being a phenomenal orator and sneaking in multiple lines in there, for example, including calling the shooter a martyr and making it seem as though it was an unavoidable.
02:15:40.000Beyond that, the problem right now is that these sorts of lone wolf style attacks is considered as, and I might have a hard time saying this word, stochastic terrorism, okay?
02:15:51.000Stochastic terrorism is when, um, There is an overwhelming amount of public demonization that leads to a person or a group that goes out and radicalizes through social media or other forms and commits an act of terror.
02:16:06.000There is a reason why there are different restrictions placed upon hate speech or this sort of information being disseminated in other Western democratic nations.
02:16:19.000And that reason isn't to hide the truth, it's actually to stop the misinformation from flooding.
02:16:26.000And obviously, this has happened over and over again, and it's continuing to grow.
02:16:30.000And overwhelmingly, it's right wing nationalism that is a gigantic problem here in the United States and somewhat worldwide as well.
02:16:42.000Well, let's look at how much of a problem that actually is because, Sargon, you said a minute ago that you actually did have the manifesto up there and you wanted to explain what the shooter's actual intentions were.
02:16:53.000So if you want to go ahead and expand on that.
02:16:59.000Being the resident centrist in the room, I think it's important to note that the only reason we're concerned about right wing nationalism is because of the cultural dominance of the left.
02:17:10.000Left wing ideas are platformed everywhere, radical left wing ideas are platformed everywhere.
02:17:15.000And this is just something obviously the two left wingers here can't own, but it's definitely true.
02:17:22.000And the reason that the far right, the sort of counterbalance to the Hassan Pikers of the world, aren't being platformed everywhere else is because of this.
02:17:33.000And it's not because their ideas aren't horrific.
02:17:55.000No, you said that left wing ideas that are extreme are being platformed, right?
02:18:01.000Whereas the right wing equivalent of those ideas are not.
02:18:05.000And there is a major difference between the radical extreme ideas and the radical extreme right wing ideas.
02:18:12.000So, I'm just trying to make sure that you understand that if someone is talking about an economic structure, which is what I do quite frequently, and seizing the means of production or redistributing wealth or giving people universal health care.
02:18:29.000I mean, these are concepts that have been proven and have worked in all of these other countries.
02:18:34.000And talking about them, we're nowhere near.
02:19:17.000Can you give me an example of extreme left wing opinions?
02:19:23.000Yeah, just any communist is an extreme left wing opinion.
02:19:26.000Do you think that communist opinions are socially acceptable in the society right now?
02:19:31.000No, well, they are, but they shouldn't be.
02:19:33.000I mean, like, for example, in my country today, there's.
02:19:36.000So you want censorship for the Nazis and the communists?
02:19:40.000No, I think they should both be talked to, actually.
02:19:43.000But what I mean is, I'll give you an example from my country.
02:19:45.000We're a bit more left wing than America.
02:19:47.000But your universities were overrun with this.
02:19:50.000So there's a program called BBC Question Time.
02:19:53.000The BBC is meant to be a neutral, impartial arbiter of discussion.
02:19:57.000And the panel that they had was four left wingers, including a literal communist, and then a kind of centrist conservative being the counterpoint.
02:20:07.000And in my country, that goes to show you just the overwhelming left wing bias.
02:20:11.000So your counterpoint to the left's version of the New Zealand shooter is a BBC show that nobody cares about that has four left wings on it.
02:22:06.000If you have the USSR, for example, the history of the USSR is a.
02:22:09.000If that's your point of reference for a violent communist act or whatever, okay, which is not violence done in the name of communism, it's just, it's still technically.
02:22:54.000Because the only example you can give against the structural violence that occurs every single day is the USSR, the communist revolution against the USSR.
02:23:35.000The only example of systemic violence brought about by bringing communism into action is nowhere near as bad as all of the fucking death toll under capitalism.
02:23:45.000We talk about people dying in famines and whatnot under a communist dictatorship.
02:25:22.000I noticed that me and Sargon are actually trying to make cogent points, and it seems like there's just no shortage of misdirection, disingenuous, sort of smarmy.
02:25:39.000The point was to say that if you look at any political ideology that you could even interpret as moderate, none of them intrinsically are more violent than any other, or even if that's the case, then it's marginal.
02:25:51.000Because we can look at something like Islam, for example.
02:25:54.000Are we to say that the 30,000 terror attacks since 9 11 committed in the name of Islam is because Islam is intrinsically violent?
02:26:02.000Now, you would probably disagree with that, but you say that to simply observe, These massive demographic changes that are happening in Western countries is, in and of itself, something that is a call to violence.
02:26:14.000So, this sort of argument, which is so derivative about which has killed more, capitalism or communism, I think the point was to say that if you're advocating communism, certainly we can find people that have killed in the name of communism.
02:26:27.000If you're advocating socialism, we can find people who have killed in the name of paganism in the last 10 years.
02:26:32.000Well, yeah, so the common one is like that.
02:26:34.000But, two, more importantly than that, sorry, Destiny, I just need to make one point.
02:26:38.000One, you can't, and two, you can absolutely.
02:26:41.000But more importantly than that, the ideology itself is an economic reorganization versus Nazism or fascism is based upon exclusion.
02:26:50.000And the principle of exclusion is a never ending fucking series of people becoming more and more violent in an effort to push out these people.
02:26:59.000And the many debates that you had with Destiny outed you for having this sort of perspective, in my opinion.
02:27:05.000Again, with the passive aggressive sort of uptopic.
02:28:51.000The only thing I was trying to say, right, is that Hassan is saying that because the Kurds, these communist revolutionaries that you're talking about that are killing people, are killing ISIS, I think that Hassan is saying because they're killing ISIS, they're still acting in a good way.
02:29:08.000Is that basically what you're saying, Hassan?
02:29:09.000I said the YPG, in an effort to build an autonomous nation state for themselves, is behaving in a way that is morally justifiable more so than a person who's literally going up and walking into a mosque full of innocent people and murdering them.
02:29:25.000And the fact that it's this difficult for these two people who were so confident in their perspective to come out with an example that's a little bit better than, oh, the people that are killing ISIS is the same as this guy who fucking went into and shot a mosque, it leads me to understand how stupid this point is.
02:29:41.000Well, I feel like finding examples in each.
02:29:43.000Side is like, you know, who's the biggest loser?
02:29:48.000But the bigger conversation, I think, is that what type of conversations and what type of discussions that are happening now, primarily online, are potentially leading to more of these people committing these violent acts.
02:30:07.000So I think the general problem is that right now we've seen a radicalization of white people, right?
02:30:11.000Of these very right leaning, identitarian type people happen around the world that's leading them to commit more terrorist attacks, right?
02:30:16.000More, um, at more, um, Not only terrorist attacks, but like ethnically motivated terrorist attacks.
02:30:22.000The problem is that to both sides of that argument, or to do what Nick did when he said so eloquently earlier that everybody can commit acts of violence, that type of statement is ultimately vacuous and it gets us nowhere, right?
02:30:31.000If you present a problem and say, hey, here's a specific problem of these people, they go, well, everyone has problems.
02:30:35.000I mean, you can say it in a nice way, but it doesn't really address any of our issues, right?
02:30:38.000So when you look at something like right wing extremism is being platformed in a lot of places online and people are being led to commit, you know, acts of extremism inspired by right wing groups and then say, well, the USSR also had extremist shit or like, The Kurds have communist parties in different countries.
02:30:53.000I don't know if these are relevant to the conversation ever.
02:30:55.000I wasn't trying to draw a similarity in terms of the output or anything like that.
02:30:59.000I was just trying to say that both of them occur.
02:31:02.000And the types of radicalization and the way that people are radicalized is both happening online and it's kind of happening in the same way.
02:31:11.000Yeah, but it doesn't seem to be happening on the left.
02:31:14.000From what I'm familiar with, I haven't seen people go out and actually stop.
02:31:19.000Regardless of that, regardless of it happening on the left or the right.
02:31:23.000You still want to address it in basically the same way.
02:31:25.000And what direction do you guys think that we should take in terms of preventing more of these situations from occurring?
02:31:32.000Do you think that there's any sort of responsibility on these creators?
02:31:35.000Yeah, I mean, I would argue that right wing rhetoric that centers around how other races are inferior or ought to be removed or ostracized from a country or that treats these people as foreign invaders or as replacing white babies.
02:31:47.000I think this is like a pretty obvious style of rhetoric that leads people down a path towards wanting to violently remove these people, right?
02:31:53.000When you've got somebody telling you that.
02:31:55.000Foreign people in your land are destroying your culture and outbreeding you, and interracial relationships are immoral and wrong, then I think it's pretty obvious that it's going to lead some people towards enacting acts of violence against these groups of people.
02:32:11.000Nick or Sargon, please go ahead and have a rebuttal.
02:32:14.000Real quick, though, Nick, as soon as we finish this, let's tie this up and make your points to why this is relevant to the original point, which is the manifesto.
02:33:16.000Now, would anybody say that to have BDS on your campus, for anybody to talk about Palestinian rights online, is inherently radicalizing the people that are in Palestine right now?
02:33:27.000Would anybody make the argument that the young Turks, by virtue of them talking about communism and socialism, is radicalizing the communist Kurds in Turkey to commit terrorism in Turkey?
02:33:38.000Or, for example, and you keep saying there's no examples, you can't point to examples.
02:33:42.000How about the 2017 congressional baseball shooting when somebody who was writing on Facebook about how Trump is a traitor, Trump has to die, whatever, goes and tries and kills politicians?
02:33:51.000In Texas, this happened two years ago.
02:33:53.000There was an atheist who shot up a church, and it was no secret the kind of political motivation.
02:33:58.000So, of course, it's not to say that, oh, we can therefore do nothing.
02:34:06.000We're totally immobilized, and this is a meaningless statement.
02:34:09.000The point is, what you are trying to do is actually worsen the problem.
02:34:13.000You're taking this as a pretext to silence your political opponents when violence happens all the time.
02:34:19.000People have all kinds of ideologies and all kinds of different times and places and everything else.
02:34:23.000And it's pretty obvious what's going on.
02:34:25.000People like Ann Coulter, Tucker Carlson, Pat Buchanan, people like that, they're not calling for people to shoot each other in the streets.
02:34:33.000We're calling for some kind of reconciliation.
02:34:35.000We've brought in 60 million immigrants in 1965.
02:34:47.000Whether you think that's a good thing or whether you think that's a bad thing, that is a very important change that's taking place in the country.
02:34:55.000And people that are opposed to that, it seems like there's no position that you can have that isn't economic.
02:35:01.000Basically, the only opposition you can have to the country being transformed in one generation in that capacity is well, the quality of life is diminishing economically.
02:35:10.000Not that people cherish their traditions, their customs, their texture of life that existed previously.
02:35:15.000And nobody's calling, by the way, when they talk about that for.
02:35:35.000The main difference that we mentioned time and time again that you just conveniently hop over is that the idea of saying people should get universal health care is not actually going to push someone to go out and shoot Stephen Scalise, okay?
02:35:48.000However, Stephen Scalise's own personal perspective, for example, Like aligning himself with the KKK and saying that he is the David Duke without the baggage.
02:35:58.000That sort of perspective has historically led to many violent things and it continues to this day.
02:36:04.000That perspective is actually damaging and violent versus saying stuff like we should get free college education and free healthcare.
02:36:12.000And if you can't distinguish between the two, I don't know what to tell you.
02:36:16.000Why are we even having a conversation?
02:36:17.000I think that what you're saying, Hassan, at its core, is actually very true.
02:36:21.000And the conversation isn't necessarily.
02:36:24.000About, like, should people be able to talk about political issues?
02:37:09.000This is like saying social democracies in Norway, right?
02:37:11.000This is like saying social democracies in Norway or even your country where the health, like that healthcare program that you enjoy is, uh, was brought about ultimately and is moving towards ultimately like a violent end.
02:38:10.000There are examples of nations that are closer to you than they are to fucking me where they've been able to do this through a democratic process by educating the populace and then voting on these sorts of things.
02:38:22.000Ending private property is not their goal.
02:38:25.000It's the same as nationalization building public infrastructure and building public housing and getting to a point, which is my perspective, getting to a point where it is no longer necessary to have private property.
02:38:37.000One can still maintain personal property.
02:38:39.000I'm sure it's a distinction that you're unfamiliar with.
02:38:41.000Is, is, that's gonna be different than saying, I want to make sure that everyone that doesn't look like me is, is, is yeeted off the fucking border wall.
02:40:22.000Explain to me how a wealthy person becomes wealthy without.
02:40:25.000Explain to me how a wealthy person becomes wealthy.
02:40:26.000It doesn't matter how they become this.
02:40:28.000That's still the fundamental crux of your ideology.
02:40:31.000The point is that they become wealthy off of people, not like yourself, because, you know, you are a YouTube creator, but they become wealthy off of exploiting the labor of people overseas or even people in your country.
02:40:58.000What you fail to understand is looking at our current, looking at our remuneration processes right now and saying that we should have a different perspective on it is not the same as looking at different ethnic backgrounds and saying, well, their skull measurements are off, so they need to go.
02:42:19.000Nick, the justifications that somebody would use, okay, to attack a group of people based on their race is going to be a lot different than the justifications somebody would use to enact violence on groups of people for economic reasons or for reasons you think are justifications to target groups.
02:42:53.000I think there's a big difference between being a bigot against somebody because of what they believe or what they're voluntarily doing versus who they are.
02:43:03.000Okay, but a rich person is that thing.
02:43:14.000The philosophical argument, and I don't want to fucking defend this because I'm not a goddamn communist, okay?
02:43:17.000But the philosophical argument would be that capitalists exist in a state of perpetual violence, okay?
02:43:21.000And that the reason why people think that you need to upend that part of society is because they are perpetually enacting violence on a group of people.
02:43:26.000So, of course, you have a right to return that with violence in kind.
02:43:29.000Much the same way that if somebody was walking in here having me say that.
02:43:33.000What if we could say then that Muslim immigrants are perpetually enacting violence against the native population?
02:43:44.000If you want to have that argument, that's fine.
02:43:45.000So, a communist would argue that a rich capitalist is perpetually enacting violence against society by extracting or plusing value from that society, sure.
02:43:52.000And an alt rider would argue that every single immigrant that's a Muslim would also be enacting violence on that culture just by purpose of existing there, by virtue of existing there.
02:43:58.000If you want to take on that argument, we can do it.
02:44:01.000I've got a small inkling that a person arguing in favor of communism, even though I disagree with them, is going to have better arguments for their economic system and justifying violence against capitalists than somebody that says they want to kill people that are brown.
02:44:12.000Everybody should be censored because there is an argument to be made, because every argument can.
02:44:17.000Intrinsically lead to violence in some form that is illegitimate or against the state, then nobody should be able to voice any controversial opinion at all.
02:44:24.000Except that's not true because I just said that there are forms of violence.
02:44:28.000Except there are forms of violence we agree are okay or ethical, right?
02:44:31.000There are forms of violence that as societies we believe are ethically justified.
02:44:34.000That's why we nuked Japan in World War II.
02:44:35.000Against criminals, against criminals or terrorists or enemies of.
02:44:38.000Not against criminals, against enemies of the state, against people that.
02:44:41.000What you're talking about is entirely different.
02:44:43.000You're saying that anybody who talks about, for example, demographic change is somebody who.
02:44:49.000Their hateful rhetoric can lead to hateful actions.
02:44:52.000Well, by the same principle, all things equal, somebody talking about how the capitalist class is perpetuating violence against people and stealing the product of their labor, somebody who takes it through to their logical conclusion will say, well, clearly the government isn't going to seize the means of production.
02:45:18.000If you're somebody like Lawrence, no, if you're making videos talking about how Western society is being destroyed, That the white man is going extinct, that we are being outbred and forced to take on this multicultural cut culture by Jews that are trying to outbreed and destroy white people.
02:45:31.000How can you not think that that's going to lead to some people saying, well, fuck, maybe we should fucking kill these black people?
02:45:36.000People talking about how our elected representatives are in bed with the KK and the Nazis and they're hurting black people and they're stealing the product of their labor.
02:45:43.000How could you not believe that the only conclusion is to take up arms?
02:45:46.000The difference is maybe that left wing people are just pussies who don't follow through to their logical conclusions.
02:45:51.000You know, Hassan wants to talk about people stealing the product of their labor.
02:47:39.000For this specific, going to France and actually seeing mass immigration to France, and combined with a terrorist attack of Eber Ackerlan, which I'd never even heard of, but this is a Swedish girl who is run down.
02:47:53.000And it was this that he was sat in front of the graves of the World War II dead and looking at the crosses stretching off into the distance, and for some reason, He got it into his head that, okay, he has to go and kill a bunch of Muslims to make a statement to stop them.
02:48:08.000And really, if you want to know the people who actually inspired him, he lists them.
02:48:13.000I mean, he calls, what was it, Anders Breivik, or something like that.
02:48:18.000That's his real influence, like these actual radicals who have done something.
02:48:22.000In the same way that I'm sure the communist terrorists in India and whatever will cite some communist revolutionary like Lenin or something as their particular inspiration people who actually went and did these terrible things.
02:48:39.000Again, the problem is you're sure, but not really.
02:48:43.000When you look at Anders Breivik, which is a great example, what is he doing?
02:48:46.000He's going out and killing a bunch of fucking Marxist teenagers because he thinks that killing Marxists is an honorable goal because there are people like yourself on the internet who try to make the fucking same argument that like Nazis and communists are inherently dangerous.
02:49:00.000And if he sides with the Nazis in that one, we go back to World War II.
02:49:05.000Again, Hassan, it's just history that proves this.
02:49:09.000You've been Googling for the past 15 minutes.
02:49:11.000You still haven't been able to bring up fucking stats.
02:49:29.000I don't think you understand the difference between a cell, a group of people who are fighting, which, by the way, I don't even admit to mind you.
02:49:50.000Then, why do you keep bringing up examples like Rojava, or why do you keep bringing up examples of people fucking going against a militant Chinese state, even, or an Indian state, or anything like that, that is literally fucking wiping them out?
02:50:03.000They're not literally wiping them out.
02:50:04.000We call what happened in Myanmar genocide, because it's the state systematically eradicating the Muslim population.
02:50:12.000We should call what happened in Iraq and Afghanistan also genocide, but we don't.
02:50:16.000Because that sort of violence, in your eyes and in the eyes of the Western world, is genocidal.
02:51:18.000There are different forms of violence, okay?
02:51:20.000Structural violence, such as people dying in poverty or people dying because they don't have access to shelter or food.
02:51:26.000Then there's systemic violence perpetrated on marginalized communities, or there's the kinds of violence that the state brings, whether it be foreign intervention that's military based or domestically, the militarized police force killing minorities and whatnot in an unjustifiable manner.
02:51:43.000But the difference is you look at that sort of, or poor people, it doesn't matter.
02:51:49.000You look at that form of violence and you have no issue with it because you find that to be the norm because you were still a beneficiary of the status quo.
02:51:57.000So the people that are fighting against that, the people that are fighting against that, In some instances, they are actually awful people and they're fucking maniacal and genocidal and whatnot, and fuck those people.
02:52:08.000But then there are reasonable, like Destiny was mentioning, there are reasonable revolutionaries who are still enacting some sort of goal that you now even take for granted, such as having a weekend or a number of different things that leftist revolutionaries have brought up.
02:52:40.000I'm saying that communism is inherently violent and genocidal against a certain demographic of people in society in the same way that Nazism is.
02:52:48.000There's a reason that these look like kissing cousins.
02:52:51.000There's a reason that in Germany in the 30s, so many communists became Nazi.
02:52:56.000It's very, there's a reason why every fascist leader was a socialist.
02:58:43.000I think that there's a rise in right wing terrorism because the radical right is being suppressed.
02:58:49.000And I think it's being suppressed by the radical left.
02:58:51.000And I think they know they're doing this.
02:58:52.000I mean, this is something that's obvious.
02:58:54.000This is something that they're constantly harping on about, blah, blah, blah.
02:58:57.000And I think that Nick's point was right.
02:58:59.000I think that when people aren't, they believe they don't have any way of democratically redressing their concerns, like addressing them and actually having them.
02:59:10.000Like, at least acknowledged, then and when they get persecuted for them, yeah, I think that radicalizes them.
02:59:15.000And so, I agree, I think we are going to see a big spike in right wing terrorism.
02:59:19.000And I think the only way to stop that is either, I mean, God knows what kind of tyrannical methods the communists would indulge in, or we can take the liberal route and just ask them what their problem is.
02:59:34.000So, let's say the New Zealand shooter is coming up to you and he's got his gun in the trunk or his multiple guns in the trunk and he's ready to go.
02:59:40.000Well, I think at that point it's too late.
02:59:44.000I think he's done at that point, you know.
02:59:46.000Do you think you promote rhetoric that's inclusive towards people of other cultures or other colors inside your country, or do you think you're more exclusionary?
02:59:56.000That seems like a weird question to ask.
02:59:59.000Do we promote rhetoric that is inclusive of other cultures in my country?
03:00:02.000Yeah, like, so for instance, like, would you say something like, I'm uncomfortable with so many people from different cultures immigrating here, I don't think they belong in my country?
03:00:08.000Would you be the kind of person to say that, or?
03:00:11.000No, I wouldn't be the kind of person to say that.
03:00:14.000But someone who would say that would definitely be punished in many various different ways.
03:00:19.000Well, but basically, what I'm trying to get at is what is your prescription?
03:00:22.000So, a person on the left oftentimes would say, we shouldn't, and I'm using left in like the progressive sense here, a person on the left would say, we shouldn't platform radicalizing speech that could cause other people to go down this tunnel of becoming hateful of other cultures that will lead some of them into killing people.
03:00:36.000So, I'm curious, what is her prescription to stop that from happening?
03:00:46.000I think these people existing and having a voice isn't what inherently radicalizes people.
03:00:50.000I think it's when they feel they can't do anything and when they're getting suppressed and, frankly, oppressed is when they start radicalizing.
03:00:58.000I actually think that having Nick on this is a really good start.
03:01:01.000This kind of let's just hear what they have to say.
03:01:04.000And we don't have to agree with them, right?
03:01:06.000But what we shouldn't do is pathologize them and, like, anathematize them.
03:01:10.000I think that that's what really makes people radical.
03:01:13.000And I'm not saying this as someone who agrees with their perspective.
03:01:17.000But there might be some things that they're saying that are true.
03:01:20.000And maybe we should actually listen and, like, pay attention to the true thing and adopt it as part of ourselves, as part of what we believe, because it's a true thing.
03:01:29.000Okay, can you tell me what to deny that?
03:01:31.000Okay, well, the birth rates are true, right?
03:02:13.000So, I think that the argument that Sargon is basically trying to make is that the people on the right that are extreme are marginalized so much that they commit acts of violence because they're marginalized.
03:02:27.000And if they were allowed to promote, not necessarily promote, but at least express themselves, they would be less likely to commit these acts of violence because they had a place to express themselves.
03:03:18.000That's the main thing driving it people get isolated, people are disillusioned, they lack direction, and that's when people prey upon them and use them and whatever else.
03:03:27.000And so people are saying, well, the solution to people getting radicalized by hearing so called extremist rhetoric is to further isolate them, is to make it so that they have no sanctuary anywhere.
03:03:37.000It's to make it so that they're the most persecuted people, can't talk, their family can't associate with them, friends can't associate with them, they can't be employed, they can't have a Twitter account, they can't be on Facebook.
03:03:46.000What do you think happens to a person like that?
03:03:48.000Now, on my show, for example, we talk about let's affect change within the system, let's find strategies where if you have a problem with immigration, you could get involved in the party, you could vote your way out of this, whatever.
03:04:00.000But there's a path forward for you if you have these particular inclinations or these particular views.
03:04:07.000But what happens is, and this is something we've been talking about all the time, and it's not even to justify it, understand, it's not even to rationalize it.
03:04:13.000It's to say that in any society, you have people who are problematic.
03:04:17.000You have people who, whatever reason, whether it's poor childhood or they're mentally ill or whatever, you have people who they get possessed by an ideology, they could be possessed by some sort of an obsession, and they become problematic.
03:04:31.000Instead of taking these people and forcing them out on the side into the darkness where we can't see them, where they may get bad ideas, where they perhaps buy firearms or whatever, instead, if there was somebody who was out there saying, yes, fertility rates are declining, if you look at this group of people around the world, they're on the decline, and society is changing radically in a very short amount of time, and there's a concern to be had there.
03:04:56.000There's a legitimate concern about that.
03:04:58.000What is a compromise we can come to where everybody can live together?
03:05:30.000I was about to be hired by Ben Shapiro, unironically, at the Daily Wire before I started asking, well, what's the deal with foreign aid to Israel?
03:05:38.000What's the deal with some of these things that are going on, which are obviously objectionable?
03:05:42.000And instead of people debating me, instead of people saying, well, here's the reason and here's maybe what we're doing about it, here's a middle ground, they said, if you talk about that again, you'll never work again.
03:05:51.000If you keep talking about that, we're going to disassociate.
03:05:54.000We're going to call your boss every day.
03:05:55.000And they did for weeks and say you're a racist and try and get you fired.
03:06:05.000I do feel like it's kind of like a false assumption to assume that whenever people tell you to stop talking, About something, or they stop you from talking about something, you automatically assume that that's because what you're actually saying is true.
03:06:18.000I don't know if that's always accurate, but basically, what Nick and Sargon are saying is that these extremist opinions are bred in isolation.
03:06:26.000So, Destiny and Hassan, the question I have for you guys is do you feel like it would be helpful to the society to bring these extreme opinions of the right into the fold and actually have conversations about them rather than ostracizing these people from the community entirely?
03:06:41.000In a very careful manner where you can catch bad faith actors, so like Fuentes is somebody that I consider bad.
03:06:46.000If you have very careful areas where you can catch people out on them lying, yeah, I would say that there's value in it.
03:06:51.000But what I want to go back and focus on is more this idea that people get isolated, right?
03:06:54.000When you talk about isolationism or you talk about, or not isolation, when you talk about people getting isolated from society, you're not saying like you're isolated because you're not allowed to go out and talk about the birth rates and how horrible Jews are.
03:07:04.000That's not the type of isolationism that's happening, right?
03:07:06.000When people are isolated, we mean more things like people don't have very many friends in society or people are spending too much time on social media, people aren't connecting with their family as much, people aren't, you know, doing whatever things in society we do that kind of like.
03:07:17.000It's possible to bring somebody into society and have them feel like their life has meaning and purpose and they have shit to do that doesn't involve platforming them saying, you know, race realism truths about fucking what did Charles Murray say in the bell curve or some shit.
03:07:29.000I think it's a really dangerous and bad dichotomy to imply that we either have to hate and destroy and get rid of everyone in society that disagrees with us or we have to bring literal white nationalist Nazis like Richard Spencer to the forefront and have real conversations about whether or not Jews control society.
03:07:45.000I don't think it has to be one or the other here.
03:07:47.000Yeah, but you just talk about bad things.
03:07:53.000So the thing is, you're taking the most extreme.
03:07:56.000What Nick said was actually really reasonable, right?
03:07:59.000I think that if Nick walked up to a regular person on the street, not involved with politics, and said what he had said previous to You Destiny, I think they'd say, well, yeah, of course that's a concern, which is presumably why the Danish government were doing something about it.
03:08:26.000Anyone who wants to have a dialogue, obviously, we would take good faith, sensible, level headed actors who would say a lot like what Nick has just said there.
03:08:35.000This is the radical sort of like, if you want to characterize them as the sort of extreme right, okay, let's characterize them as extreme right.
03:08:43.000And really, I think it comes down to the sort of like the three driving motivations of Enlightenment philosophy liberalism is for liberty, socialism is for equality, and fascism is for security.
03:08:55.000If you're going to give them charitable motivations that drew people to them, that's what you would accurately, I think, all three groups would agree with those assessments.
03:09:05.000Right, the security one is being completely shut out of the dialogue, and it's not fair to those people who happen to be afraid.
03:09:15.000Right, I mean, there was a study that said like 30% of people in society they reckon are just primed to go fascist, they're not, they're perfectly normal, happy, liberal people until a certain set of conditions are met, and then boom.
03:10:05.000Then don't you think that it's kind of impossible?
03:10:07.000I'm just, look, I don't know why I'm asking you this question is because, no, this notion that people, like, racism is social conditioning, okay?
03:10:16.000I know that Nick will probably try to argue from a more naturalistic perspective and claim that, you know, this is a normal thing, but it's not.
03:10:28.000And I think you understand that as a liberal.
03:10:30.000And the point I'm trying to make is that, look, Destiny debates fucking right wingers all the time.
03:10:36.000I'm fully on board with talking to even Nazis, as long as the other side is well equipped to deal with the misinformation, as long as the other side is well equipped with an understanding of not only history, but the kind of historical revisionism that Nazis or fascists engage in.
03:11:07.000I don't know why you think this is a gotcha moment.
03:11:09.000You're practicing what Sargon is saying, then, is to bring in the whole of the stream.
03:11:13.000But the difference is, platforms don't know how to deal with this because the profit motive feeds into it.
03:11:20.000Because the profit motive feeds into the fact that conspiracy theory channels are being heightened because more people are watching it.
03:11:29.000And this misinformation is the only access that most average citizens have.
03:11:34.000And then on top of that, Nick is not correct when he says isolation, but alienation occurs where you feel alienated from your labor, where you feel alienated from your own.
03:11:47.000It's so weird that you're trying to shut down my speech when I'm trying to have a normal conversation where I admitted that I somewhat agree with your perspective by trying to claim that it's Marxist rhetoric.
03:11:57.000How is it that any different than people think it's anything Marxist rhetoric?
03:12:01.000That's not an accurate way of fucking dealing with what I'm trying to say.
03:12:04.000Try to please, for a brief moment, give that same level of charity that I've just offered to you and take in what I'm trying to say.
03:12:39.000And then they go back to these weird mythological underpinnings of Nordic mythology and haplogroups and the replacement that is occurring somehow.
03:12:50.000And never really look at it as these are our fellow men and women who are coming from different parts of the world who are just going to readjust into our way of life and ultimately make it better.
03:13:08.000The problem that I have with your theory and the reason that.
03:13:11.000And I'm sorry, I'm just going to hand wave as Marxist, but I think that this is your prism, your ideological lens that you're viewing it through.
03:13:21.000Because, I mean, you can't really account for someone like Elliot Roger with that sort of rationale because he was a rich kid.
03:14:29.000Each one of these has their own particular motivations.
03:14:33.000Some people, sure, and it's not to say that it's never that people feel alienated from their labor and their work, that they're just doing the same monotonous, droning work all day, every day, and they feel frustrated and bored or whatever.
03:14:46.000I'm not saying that doesn't happen, but we have plenty of cases where that's not the case.
03:14:51.000So I think that in some cases, sure, it will be appropriate to apply a Marxist analysis in that regard.
03:15:55.000The point that I'm trying to make here is you talk about both you and both Destiny and Hassan talk about, you know, well, maybe we could platform people who are reasonable.
03:16:06.000Or they say, well, what is the point where we could platform somebody who holds views that are even adjacent to us?
03:16:14.000So you guys say, well, You know, there's no point, Destiny says, there's no point at which you could platform this appropriately, or it'd be very difficult to find a way that you could do this responsibly.
03:16:25.000Hassan, I guess your position is, you know, I'll debate these people, but whatever.
03:16:29.000A really good example, which I think sort of sheds some light on this, is anybody familiar with the scientist James Watson?
03:18:38.000And so when you look at something like that, you really begin to wonder at what point does this system tolerate any kind of dissent?
03:18:46.000You have to wonder maybe it's not so much you don't see left wing terrorism because it's not inherently violent, but because there's no reason for them to commit asymmetrical anti state terrorism.
03:18:56.000A right wing person is on the outs, they're on the fringe.
03:18:59.000Who do they have to look up to in media, government, anywhere?
03:19:02.000A left wing person, you've got all these major corporations all doing it.
03:19:18.000Do you want to bet on who's talked the most?
03:19:20.000Do you want to bet on who's talked the most right now?
03:19:22.000Okay, so for reference, for our last debate, Nick pulled the same thing, too, where he said he felt like he talked for twice as much as me, and somebody went through in kind of the hours, and he talked for two hours to the one hour conversation that I actually had.
03:19:59.000So, what you're literally doing is like we can all go on Wikipedia and read an appeal to false authority.
03:20:03.000Just because you're the discoverer of DNA does not give you the ability to speak with any sort of authority whatsoever on intelligence research.
03:20:09.000Then, why are you so upset that the scientific community was so outraged when he started making opinions or making statements on the genetic heritability or whatever of fucking IQ?
03:20:18.000I'm not saying that because of his position, his claim was particularly true or relevant.
03:20:25.000Bill, why are you surprised that his Nobel Committee.
03:20:27.000Are you going to let me answer the question you just asked?
03:20:29.000Well, because if it takes you 20 fucking minutes to answer a pretty simple question, how long will you let you do another fucking diatribe on some random fucking Nazi factoid?
03:21:56.000the people that debate this are also multidisciplinary people that have spent their fucking lives researching this.
03:22:00.000The fact that you have discovered the double helix or the fact that you've made important contributions to certain types of DNA research doesn't give you the authority all of a sudden to speak on things related to DNA research.
03:22:18.000If you didn't say that, Then why are you surprised when somebody that is held as an esteemed researcher or scientist starts making incredibly irresponsible statements outside of his field of expertise?
03:22:28.000Why are you surprised when the scientific community would disavow him?
03:22:30.000The point being is this you just said it was an obviously controversial and broad subject.
03:22:35.000He offered a view which is heterodox about that subject.
03:22:39.000And even in spite, the point was to illustrate that he is not a political operative.
03:22:45.000He did not march at Charlottesville, he was not the leader of the KKK.
03:22:48.000This was somebody who was apolitical, a scientist, and he could not.
03:22:52.000Again, offer a contrary opinion on a controversial scientific genetic matter without being completely wiped out.
03:22:59.000And again, it's not like he wrote a book about it.
03:23:01.000It's not like he wrote a book about here's why these people are inferior.
03:23:04.000It's not like he delivered a lecture about it.
03:23:06.000Your argument is supporting my point of view.
03:23:09.000The fact that he was held on what his beliefs were on the subject.
03:23:12.000The fact that he was held on what his beliefs were on the subject.
03:23:14.000Don't even let me finish the question.
03:23:15.000Both of you, both of you, both of you, please calm down.
03:23:40.000Does anybody say you can't have a job in a university because you talk about politics?
03:23:44.000No, I'm just saying there's an entirely different concept here.
03:23:47.000Noam Chomsky's written many books and conducted a fuckload of political research and has also taught politics at the PhD level to hundreds of, if not thousands of fucking students.
03:24:29.000The point is that somebody who is held in very high regard, somebody who is very important to the scientific community, grossly stepped outside of his lane and started to offer.
03:24:39.000And started to offer these explanations saying that, like, well, the differences in IQ between people is genetic.
03:24:44.000This was a horribly irresponsible statement.
03:24:46.000It empowers the fuck out of Nazi scum like fucking Nick.
03:25:43.000People by and large have a negative opinion of people who are talking out of their asses when it comes to the fact that you're in a position of authority, you are using that position of authority in a dangerously irresponsible manner.
03:25:55.000You are missing the point, you're completely missing it.
03:25:57.000Does not protect you from the freedom of consequences.
03:26:00.000There's no such thing as completely missing the point on this.
03:26:05.000The point, the problem here is that Nick wants that person not to get any sort of Nick wants that person not to get fucking banished from society.
03:26:20.000Are you going to be the person who's now.
03:26:22.000If I go and watch the Avengers at the end of the month and I don't like it, should I be banished from society for voicing an unpopular or controversial opinion?
03:26:33.000It's not simply a controversial opinion.
03:26:35.000And the fact that you keep conflating it, or the fact that you keep making it seem as though it's like you keep minimizing the impact of saying something like there are genetic differences between intelligence and IQ, a thing that is the justification for the reason why all of these unfounded scientific things that we threw away, like phrenology and shit, and all the race realism that's now making a comeback with all the white nationalism that we see,
03:27:01.000the reason why it's not just a simple difference in opinion is because it is damaging.
03:27:05.000And it literally fucking justifies the ethnostaters and the violent ethnostaters.
03:28:01.000Just because there are some traits that may or may not be factored related to your fucking genetics doesn't mean that we can say something like intelligence, which is a Highly polygenetic trait.
03:28:22.000Wait, okay, so if somebody were to make the argument, some people could have two hearts and some people could have one heart, and I go, well, what do you mean?
03:28:26.000You're like, well, some people are taller and some people are shorter.
03:28:29.000Does that mean I concede that fucking point?
03:28:32.000Just because there might be variances in height between two different groups, why is it so subtle?
03:28:36.000You guys, dude, honestly, you guys should go fucking publish articles in nature right now because this is such a heated debate in the fucking research community.
03:29:07.000Sargon's argument was that because there are differences like height that are naturally observable, That vary between different groups of people based off of their ethnicity, then the assumption would be there could also be other differences besides that.
03:29:27.000The point is, I mean, sure, and undoubtedly, I think it would be against the theory of evolution if groups of people who had evolved in different situations didn't have physical differences.
03:29:38.000I think that would be an impossibility.
03:29:40.000But the point is, it doesn't matter because, I mean, for example, we don't kick people out of our society for being low IQ.
03:29:47.000We don't kick people out of society for being high IQ or anything.
03:29:59.000But I think that you can also very easily concede that if you have some sort of scientific theory that shows that certain races are dumber than others, that's going to obviously influence the way that people are going to treat and legislate against those different races.
03:31:20.000And everybody I'm going to talk about is because Sargon and Nick, and perhaps we do this as well, make a lot of points that in this matter of fact way, and it kind of goes unnoticed because, again, they're eloquent speakers and they get to go on for five and Sometimes 10 in Nick's case, minutes uninterrupted.
03:31:38.000So I sometimes have to just kind of ask them what they mean by that.
03:33:16.000The question was How do we platform people who are concerned about fertility rates, for example, in a responsible way?
03:33:25.000And Destiny says, Well, I don't know how we could platform people who say we hate all Jews responsibly, or we have to exterminate a certain group of people responsibly.
03:33:33.000There's no responsible way to platform an exterminationist.
03:35:05.000If you're saying, the point is to demonstrate, if you're saying what is the responsible way to platform people, it appears that there is simply no tolerance.
03:35:14.000That was the point I'm trying to get across.
03:35:17.000Even if you're talking about somebody who's not an ideologue, like they're not a Nazi or whatever, but you're not even willing to tolerate dissent on that level, that an expert in the field of science generally.
03:35:29.000Cannot make a claim which you disagree with, which you might think could lead to bad things and you disagree with, without his entire life being destroyed.
03:35:38.000The point is to say that, you know, obviously dissent against the system, no matter how moderate, no matter how infrequent, no matter who's saying it, is not tolerated to any extent.
03:36:34.000Do you think that, Nick, do you think that in any way it was irresponsible for him to express that while it's not necessarily his area of expertise?
03:36:55.000I don't think that's entirely true because don't you feel like he has a responsibility as being somebody who is a scientist and whose opinion will, by default, Be taken more seriously to take a larger amount of caution whenever he's saying things like this that could be interpreted in a way.
03:37:13.000And I don't think you can necessarily treat the person who, even as you said, discovered DNA as just an average person who's talking about something they don't know about, especially when it's so close to what he's actually so well known for.
03:37:25.000No, I don't think that's irresponsible at all.
03:37:28.000I think people, I think it's irresponsible to not tell the truth, frankly.
03:37:32.000You know, our society is falling apart because.
03:37:34.000People prefer nice lies as opposed to hard truths.
03:38:36.000That's what Nick was speaking to earlier about the radicalization, nostalgization, and the demolition of people who hold these, what are quite out there, out there views.
03:38:46.000His wasn't, like he said, he wasn't a Nazi.
03:40:20.000I mean, we're revolving around this one topic a lot of this James Watson guy.
03:40:24.000Like, when you're a scientific researcher, there are certain standards that we hold scientific researchers to.
03:40:28.000We rely on these people to give us truthful pieces of information because we can't do this on our own.
03:40:34.000We drive cars every day, not because we are chemical engineers that can put together engines, but because we rely on people getting the facts correct at a higher level before we ever get the actual product.
03:40:43.000This is true in every single part of our lives.
03:40:44.000We rely on people to know what they're talking about when it comes to policy.
03:40:47.000We rely on people knowing what they're talking about when it comes to engineering, when it comes to scientific theory, when it comes to physics, when our microprocessors are put together.
03:40:54.000These people are held to a higher level of responsibility when it comes to public discourse because we look up to them so much.
03:41:00.000So when you get somebody that is an esteemed professor or has done research, Or has stolen research or has done something in order to publish a finding that we consider very important, then it is absolutely critical that this person realizes that every statement they give is going to be extremely scrutinized and held to a very high standard.
03:41:15.000You absolutely have a responsibility, not only to public discourse, but maybe even to humankind as a whole, or at the very least to your own scientific community, to make sure that you are not irresponsibly disseminating horrible information that you have no right to talk about in a public forum.
03:41:29.000It's just absolutely horrible to do it.
03:41:30.000And I hope that, I know that most scientists, because most of them disavowed Watson when he did it, understand this incredibly important concept that is like the underpinning to how scientific people or communities function.
03:41:50.000It's not like they killed the guy, they took away the honors.
03:41:53.000Like, this is the thing I don't understand.
03:41:55.000Like, if you're not, if you're an institution that wants to maintain its integrity and you take away the honors from this dude that you had honored originally for going around and damaging that institution, then yeah, that's a completely understandable thing to do.
03:42:12.000Can I come back at that just for a minute?
03:42:14.000I do feel like also that is a little bit counter to what you were saying about like the whole like being able to, you know, support yourself and everything.
03:42:22.000I think like a very core tenet of socialism is being able to support yourself and speak out and not have to worry about that kind of stuff as much.
03:42:29.000And whenever this person, like removing his honors, I think is absolutely downplaying what actually happened apparently is that he's unable to find a job, which destiny says is untrue.
03:42:42.000Whenever you're completely disbarred and removed from the society that you're able to make a living in, I think it's much more severe than.
03:42:49.000Just having your honors removed, especially whenever you're living and your means to support yourself and live is part of it.
03:42:59.000Well, I mean, like, the thing is, you have to look at it from the institution side as well.
03:43:02.000Like, who are you going to force somebody to take on, like, this person who's kind of like ostracized themselves from the side of the world?
03:43:08.000I mean, there's it's a two part thing.
03:43:10.000I just feel like I feel like you can look at it from both directions.
03:43:14.000Yeah, well, I mean, you can, but like, so it would be like if let's say I'm in the gaming community and I'm like, I just don't think anyone should play video games ever.
03:43:20.000The reason I said that is because Hassan, like, talks a lot about socialist stuff.
03:43:24.000I do feel like that was kind of a little bit of a problem.
03:43:26.000Yeah, I mean, I'm sorry that I don't feel that bad for the race realist who sold his Nobel Peace Prize and made a fuckload of money at the age of 90.
03:43:34.000And it's not like he's rejected from society altogether.
03:43:39.000The institutions that had honored him in the past have taken away that honor.
03:43:44.000If this is the price that people like Nick Fuentes cannot even come to terms with for someone who disrespects the scientific method and uses their position of authority to spread, you know, race realist bullshit.
03:43:59.000There's no corrective measures that are appropriate.
03:44:01.000And the problem that I have with this entire conversation is that Nick and Sargon want to be the ones who put the corrective measures in place.
03:44:11.000They want to be the ones who decide what gets to be said and what doesn't.
03:44:15.000And that's what's really frustrating to me because throughout the conversation, they tried to make it seem as hard as possible with all of their might.
03:44:22.000They tried to make it seem as though communism and Nazism was equally as damaging and equally as violent in regards to ideology.
03:45:05.000Honestly, it's nearly half full, so I'm going to have to flake.
03:45:09.000Okay, if that's the case, let's call it right here.
03:45:12.000I mean, like, honestly, we had a lot of discussions, and even though we only had three of the planned topics, I think we talked about a good half dozen things really important.
03:45:20.000We had a lot of good discussions, and I think everybody probably learned something out of this.
03:45:24.000And so, thank you, everybody, for coming on and being part of this.
03:45:29.000I would consider the show a huge success.
03:45:32.000So, thank you, everybody, for being part of it and being reasonable.
03:45:35.000And also, another thing that's really important is being willing to come to the table and talk to people who you might completely revile, completely disagree with, and still be willing to have a conversation and be relatively civil.
03:47:25.000Twitch.tv says Hassan Abi, H A S A N A B I. Also, you know, I'm trying to put the politics aside because I want you guys to see these people as human beings.
03:48:53.000I consider myself just a liberal centrist.
03:48:54.000And you know what's funny is that like 20 years ago, I was firmly defending the left wing from the evangelicals when I was arguing with people on the internet.
03:49:04.000And now it's very interesting how I'm defending like the right wing from the left.
03:49:08.000It's like you never had any principles at all.
03:49:10.000Well, no, my principle is to actually stick up for the people being bullied.
03:49:14.000Yeah, the poor Nazis who are being bullied.
03:49:37.000I'm going to say something that I hate myself for saying, but you know what?
03:49:40.000I actually believe Sargon when he says that.
03:49:42.000Because when I got banned from Twitter, fucking slippery fucking Nick here, along with a whole bunch of other people, celebrated the fuck out of it.
03:49:47.000When Sargon got banned from Twitter, I told him I'm sorry and it sucked and he thanked me for it.
03:49:51.000And I think when I got banned, I think he said something similar about me.