00:00:07.000We've got a great show for you tonight and a great guest, a man who certainly needs no introduction around here, but I'll give him one anyway.
00:00:15.000The founder and editor of American Renaissance.
00:00:18.000He is one of the smartest, one of the best guys around in this movement doing activism for our people and our country.
00:01:13.000I know many people can relate to this.
00:01:14.000And this was the first real breakthrough on the free speech issue in the frontier of social media.
00:01:20.000So I'm just going to quickly read through a few excerpts from the press release, and then we can discuss that.
00:01:26.000So you had a big press release on June 15th, on Friday, and it described how Twitter tried to strike down your complaint, they tried to dismiss your lawsuit, but Judge Harold Kahn.
00:02:05.000In some respects, I'm not necessarily the man to ask.
00:02:08.000The best man to ask might be one of our lawyers.
00:02:11.000But it's a pretty complicated business, believe me.
00:02:14.000We are suing Twitter under California state law, and we sued on several grounds.
00:02:21.000And in some respects, I was disappointed that some of the more wide ranging grounds we sued on were denied by the judge.
00:02:30.000Now, later on, we can bring up these arguments, but these are arguments that would outright ban any kind of viewpoint discrimination on the internet.
00:02:41.000At this point, the case is proceeding on somewhat narrower grounds.
00:02:45.000And it has to do with California's unfair competition laws.
00:02:49.000That is to say, the kinds of contracts that Twitter can enter into with its users, the kind of advertising that it held itself out as being, for example, a free speech platform, but now it turns out that it's not a free speech platform at all.
00:03:06.000So it was a kind of false advertising.
00:03:08.000So the suit will move forward really on two grounds.
00:03:11.000One is of false advertising, that they claimed to be something that they are in fact not.
00:03:17.000They initially were describing themselves as the free speech wing of the free speech movement.
00:03:25.000And when we signed on seven years ago, they had a whole list, well, it was a pretty short list, of the only reasons that they could justify banning an account or removing a tweet.
00:03:36.000And that was such things as copyright violation, promoting illegal activity, selling drugs, for example, exposing private information if I were putting your credit card information on the internet.
00:03:48.000That kind of Clearly objectionable, libelous, defamation, that kind of thing.
00:03:54.000But then, and they said, as far as any opinions are concerned, absolutely anything goes.
00:03:58.000Well, now we know that that's clearly not the case.
00:04:02.000The other is that the judge held that they may have the right, in fact, they probably do have the right, to ban certain accounts for reasons other than this kind of egregious, illegal, or unconscionable behavior.
00:04:20.000Well, basically, illegal behavior, which is what their list originally was.
00:04:23.000But they said if Twitter's going to do that, then they've got to have a clear set of criteria, and they absolutely cannot, as they now claim, reserve the right to kick people off.
00:04:34.000Anytime for any reason, which is what they're now claiming.
00:04:38.000Well, yeah, I mean, that's, I think, a huge victory.
00:04:41.000I know, you know, in terms of the number of complaints that you filed, it is now, I think, a little bit of a narrower case.
00:04:47.000I remember when you talked about this at American Renaissance, you brought up the California state law, which I thought was a remarkably creative argument about how Twitter constituted a public forum.
00:04:58.000And even private enterprises, private spaces have to be used for a public forum in the state of California.
00:05:05.000So, Although it is disappointing, I think that it has been narrowed from some of those more creative arguments.
00:05:10.000I think that the judge recognized that Twitter cannot, in fact, allow or cannot rather basically be above the law, where, as you say, they enter into a contract with their users and they can change the rules.
00:05:24.000They can ban you for whatever reason, no matter what.
00:05:26.000And even in the lawsuit, I think they sort of reluctantly said they could ban people for their race, for their sexual orientation.
00:05:33.000I mean, any class of people for any reason.
00:05:35.000I think that really gets at the heart of our problem.
00:05:38.000Because you look at many of the accounts, yours included, which was, I think, one of the most law abiding accounts on this sort of dissident right wing spaces, where you follow the rules, and many of us would be okay to play by the rules.
00:05:51.000But the problem is then we find out that, well, the rules are changed on a dime, and actually, somehow you're qualified as somebody who's connected to violence according to their reason for why they took you out.
00:06:02.000And it was, of course, that was just nonsense.
00:06:04.000So I think that really gets at the heart of it.
00:06:06.000So I think it's very optimistic right now.
00:06:10.000Well, yes, it is a very significant victory.
00:06:13.000Like anyone who files a suit, I'd like to win on all counts.
00:06:17.000And our lawyers are very, very happy that the suit is moving forward.
00:06:22.000And if it ever goes to appeal, which it very likely will, because if we win, Twitter is not just going to take this lying down, then we can re argue the broader issues.
00:06:31.000And the fact is, we are asking a judge to consider that a privately owned public forum should have a First Amendment obligation to permit all.
00:07:05.000This is not a surprising outcome for veteran legal observers, but still for a guy like me who's aiming for the top, it can still be disappointing, but the suit can proceed.
00:07:16.000That's a very, very encouraging thing.
00:07:18.000The precedent that we were trying to go for was the holding that even if an entity is privately owned, if it acts as a public forum, and in this case, it was a shopping center that was held to be a public forum for people walking around in it, going up to each other, talking to each other.
00:07:35.000And so the shopping center was not allowed to say, no, no, no, you can't distribute leaflets, you can't look for signatories for petitions to the UN or things like that.
00:07:47.000If a shopping center is a public forum for that purpose and has to abide by First Amendment obligations, well, then for heaven's sake, Twitter, which holds itself out as a public forum, surely should be subject to this kind of interpretation.
00:08:00.000But as I say, that would be a step forward that a trial level judge is very seldom likely to want to make.
00:08:08.000Yeah, well, that's a great point that you make because you're right.
00:08:10.000I mean, really what it comes down to is this issue of the First Amendment really being narrow in terms of its scope in the 21st century, whereas it covers papers and the press and some of the more.
00:08:21.000Legacy conventional forms of media in the 21st century, when you have these major monopolies on social media and they can ban whoever they want for whatever reason because they're private companies, we have an area, a gray area, where the law isn't really being followed according to the spirit of free speech, which is that, as you say, you should be able to have a public forum on Twitter, which is much bigger than a shopping center in California.
00:08:47.000And I think the important thing that makes this a win is that it's proceeding.
00:08:51.000You know, this is the first time that.
00:08:53.000Social media censorship has been actionable under law.
00:09:00.000And it means that we can move on to discovery.
00:09:04.000And for those of your viewers who don't know what discovery is, this means we can legally compel them to give us their internal documents on how they went about making decisions to ban people.
00:09:17.000And we can also put their employees under oath and make them testify as to what the process is whereby.
00:09:24.000They make these really quite ridiculous decisions.
00:09:27.000As you pointed out, when they did ban my account and that of my organization, American Renaissance, the excuse they gave was that we were both affiliated with a violent extremist group.
00:09:39.000Now, in all of our filings back and forth so far, and there have been three or four different exchanges in very detailed matters, matters of law, matters of fact, not once have they ever attempted to somehow link either account to anything related to violence.
00:09:57.000Nor have they ever even cited a single tweet of the thousands and thousands of tweets that we had emitted over the seven year period that we were on the platform.
00:10:07.000Never have they cited a single tweet that they said violated their terms of agreement.
00:10:10.000So they did, in effect, back themselves into the corner in which they said, Well, okay, maybe we can't produce anything that says they're really violent.
00:10:20.000We can't produce anything that shows they have violated our terms of agreement.
00:10:24.000So they have fallen back on this position.
00:10:42.000And, uh, Judge Kant said, no, I don't think you have that right.
00:10:45.000So, uh, the case will move forward, but this is just round one in what is likely to be a long battle.
00:10:52.000And I hope that it will certainly change the way these media platforms operate.
00:10:57.000And as you point out, We live in really an unconscionable era in which you have enormous corporations that control what is, in effect, the public square in terms of exchange of ideas, who have the right to say, No, I don't like this guy.
00:11:29.000If they were sued and they were told, okay, one of your Twitter users has said something libelous, genuinely libelous, and they are attacked for that, they would hide behind the defense of saying, no, no, no, this is something that was tweeted by our user, not us.
00:11:47.000On the other hand, when it comes to our suit, they are arguing that they're just like a newspaper and they have the right to pick and choose what goes out under the Twitter label.
00:11:59.000And this is an argument that we hope to be able to make in court as well.
00:12:02.000On the one hand, they're saying, no, no, you can't hold us responsible for what's out there.
00:12:06.000And then they say, well, we are responsible because we pick and choose what goes out as tweets.
00:12:12.000So, you know, now that we've really got them in court and we can hold their feet to the fire, I'm very much looking forward to a favorable outcome, but this stuff takes time.
00:12:45.000It's such an exciting opportunity here and such an important frontier for what we're trying to do.
00:12:51.000You know, I could be on my show and doing my show, but if the social media companies, and it looks like we're headed in this direction, decide after one or two or three years that, well, you know, just general right wing conservative thought isn't going to fly on our platform.
00:13:04.000It really puts us in a very difficult position to make political reform.
00:13:08.000So, by all means, I would encourage people to go and donate because this is, if not one of the most important, the most important frontiers for the dissemination of this kind of information, these kinds of thoughts in this period right now.
00:13:24.000Well, and there's no question that all of these social platforms have been moving left, moving in the direction of censorship the last few years.
00:13:33.000For seven years, I, in American Renaissance, we consistently did the same thing year in, year out.
00:14:14.000And as you know, of course, you live on the internet.
00:14:17.000You wouldn't exist without the internet.
00:14:19.000I date back to the prehistoric days when we actually had printed monthly publications, but the internet means that we have gone from a maximum monthly circulation in print of 4,000 a month to sometimes getting 400,000 viewers a month to our website.
00:14:37.000And to our traffic, our YouTube videos, et cetera.
00:14:39.000So the internet is an absolutely essential part of your and my activity.
00:14:44.000And I think this is a very important suit to keep it open.
00:14:47.000And I would add that if there's still any honest liberals out there, they too should support us.
00:14:53.000Because after all, what if there's some kind of change?
00:14:57.000What if the wrong guys, from their point of view, take over and start banning them?
00:15:01.000This is a principled argument that all ideas should be present in the marketplace of ideas.
00:15:08.000It's so absolutely critical in terms of, you know, we're not really competitive.
00:15:13.000When you think about it, that we're competing with people on YouTube, Facebook, and Twitter with printed publications and Gab, you know, it just is, there's no way that we could compete.
00:15:22.000And it's funny that you bring up liberals and why they should support this, and even some of the conservatives.
00:15:28.000And what's fascinating to me, and let me know if this is your experience you have people like Dave Rubin, you have people like Ben Shapiro, you have these people on Fox News, and they champion the free speech issue all day long on college campuses.
00:15:42.000But when it comes to us, you know, when we get ghettoized and we get kicked off and abused for not breaking any rules, for simply participating in the conversation with ideas that maybe are a little uncomfortable for them.
00:15:54.000You know, suddenly we find ourselves that we don't have a defense.
00:16:14.000Those are people, especially, who should know better.
00:16:18.000Because once you and I have been completely silenced, they should know that they are next in line in the crosshairs.
00:16:25.000They should be the ones being prepared to say, okay, We may not disagree with these guys, but it's vitally important that their voices be heard.
00:16:33.000But no, they're not daring to do that.
00:16:36.000This is part of the sickness of the so called conservative movement.
00:16:40.000Every conservative seems to think, well, okay, what I say is reasonable, but anything that goes beyond what I say towards the right or towards sort of any kind of racial orientation or towards any kind of even a religious orientation, ooh, that's too far.
00:16:57.000This is a very sick and sad state of affairs.
00:17:00.000And that is why so often, You get so called conservative publications and organizations firing their employees when the left points out, oh, this guy, Jason Richwine, he once wrote a thesis for his Harvard PhD on a forbidden subject, something having to do with maybe race and IQ.
00:17:19.000And then, okay, Harriet is, uh oh, okay, sorry, yes, sir, we will throw this guy out the door.
00:17:26.000This kind of truckling to the left, I think, is one of the most contemptible aspects of so called conservatives.
00:17:34.000And you would think that after 25 years of this charade, they would know better, right?
00:17:40.000I mean, these are supposedly educated people in think tanks, people in academia, and yet the basic pattern recognition, which is that that kind of compromise, that kind of accommodation of the left, you know, does it ever really pay off?
00:17:53.000I think this is a great way to transition into the other thing I want to talk about today, which is the Trump executive order on the separation of the children of illegal immigrants.
00:18:05.000Here you have another clear case of the left is screaming like their heads are cut off.
00:18:09.000You know, there's Rachel Maddow's crying on TV.
00:18:42.000And to me, it's astonishing the way the left has been just vituperative in frankly the most hateful ways about Donald Trump and his policies.
00:18:53.000There was an article in the forward by a woman named Lavin.
00:19:11.000And if you find yourself at the dinner table with a Trump supporter, you take your glass, smash it, and leave the room because we can't even bear to be in the same room and be polite to these people who voted for Trump.
00:19:25.000This is the attitude they have towards us.
00:19:28.000And obviously, if that is the kind of typical, just animus, the visceral animus that they hold for Donald Trump, obviously they're going to be even more viscerally animated against someone like you or me.
00:19:42.000And there is just no compromise, no dealing with these people.
00:19:45.000I don't think that the United States has been this far apart psychologically or politically, certainly since the eve of the Civil War.
00:19:54.000This is an extraordinary state of affairs in which there is just no dialogue possible with these people.
00:19:58.000And it is the champions of tolerance and diversity who are the most intolerant and incapable of accepting a diverse point of view.
00:20:08.000This is a kind of liberal, liberal bigotry that I think is probably without precedent in the history of the world, unless you go back to something like the French Revolution or the worst times, the Soviet Revolution.
00:20:19.000That's a great comparison to these left wing ideological totalitarian governments because you're right.
00:20:25.000At the end of the day, it is about the issue of equality, it's about the issue of egalitarianism, and it is about race.
00:20:32.000And I've had so many conservatives, liberals, journalists, they always say the same thing, which is I don't know if it's quite the race thing.
00:20:40.000You know, I've heard this from everybody.
00:20:42.000I really don't know if it's quite about race, but of course, we know that there are two different worldviews in the country.
00:20:48.000You know, like you said, polarized in a way that they've never been before, where it's It's irreconcilable.
00:20:53.000Two different visions that are mutually exclusive.
00:20:55.000And so, given that the divide is so severe and that it would be really hard to make these two things come together, what do you see as the future of the country?
00:21:06.000Do you see it as opening up into conflict?
00:21:09.000Do you see it as, well, one side is going to win and dominate the other?
00:21:13.000Do you see it as, well, the left has education, so maybe our side will just go out of existence?
00:21:18.000What is in America's future for this divide?
00:21:24.000You know, that is really the big question of our time.
00:21:27.000And you and I are fighting on one side of this divide.
00:21:31.000And it sometimes makes me think well, I used to be a lefty.
00:21:36.000And believe it or not, I was a pretty thoroughgoing lefty.
00:21:39.000And I read Witness by Whitaker Chambers.
00:21:42.000And of course, Witness was at one time a communist.
00:21:45.000And then he became disenchanted with communism and he became an opponent of communism.
00:21:50.000But he wrote that when he made that switch, he thought that communism had such a Powerful gust of wind in its sails, a just permanent typhoon backing it, that he, by turning against communism, was joining the losing side.
00:22:11.000And so things can change in a most dramatic way.
00:22:15.000It does seem that the left certainly has most of the media, most of the education.
00:22:20.000At the same time, whenever you see people with an opportunity to speak on their own, when they are not being browbeaten by the media, browbeaten by some sort of educational institution, When they have a chance to vote for Donald Trump or when they have a chance to write comments, even on mainstream news sites in an uncensored sort of way, there's an enormous amount of public sense of common sense out there in the public.
00:22:45.000I think again, we've probably never had as much of a divide between published opinion and public opinion.
00:22:53.000In other words, the things that most people say are by no means the things that the most, uh, that the editorial writers, the, uh, the talking heads on television say so many times.
00:23:06.000In a liberal organization like the Washington Post or the New York Times, if you read the comments, the commenters have a vastly more realistic view of the world.
00:23:16.000They see things, they draw parallels, they see patterns that the authors of these articles are deliberately blind to.
00:23:23.000So that's a long winded way of saying it may look like the other side holds many trump cards, but just like the Soviet Union up until the very end looked like it could not be a more stable society, it crumbled in an instant.
00:23:40.000The current orthodoxy, I think, one of the reasons it's lashing out so viciously by means of these Twitter suits, by means of this utter, utter vituperation and hatred of Trump, it's because they have a sense that their orthodoxy, their control, their control of what we all are supposed to think and do is slipping.
00:24:01.000And every orthodoxy lashes out with particular viciousness and nastiness just before it crumbles.
00:24:08.000That's a very well put way to say that.
00:24:11.000And I think it's so important that this is.
00:24:14.000Understood by the people in this movement because I'm sure you know this as well as many people because you talk to other people in the movement and people who have these feelings.
00:24:23.000And like you say, it is a sentiment that, although it's not allowed to be printed, although it's not allowed to be aired on television, it is felt pretty widely.
00:24:31.000And I think one of the biggest ceilings, one of the biggest obstacles is this sense of hopelessness, of nihilism, this idea that the deck is so stacked against us, you know, why bother?
00:24:54.000And, you know, they say about empires, they collapse very slowly and then very quickly, you know, in the case of the Soviet Union or France or others.
00:25:02.000And so I think that's such an important message.
00:25:06.000Well, one thing I did want to say I have been running American Renaissance ever since 1990.
00:25:13.000That's since well before you and many of your viewers were even born.
00:25:18.000And There was certainly a time, I would say, for the first maybe 15, maybe as many as 20 years, I felt like I was just making a record.
00:25:28.000I was making a number of points so that if some obscure researcher in the next century actually took the time to look into what people were saying back in the days when I was alive, they might find that at least a few of us were not all cowards and fools.
00:25:47.000I felt like I was just making a kind of historical record.
00:25:51.000I've seen Silence and lack of progress for many years.
00:25:56.000What by comparison, what we see today is a remarkable burgeoning of websites, of Twitter accounts, of publishers, of people like you, people who are taking advantage of the media and the opportunities available to us now to get word out to all sorts of people who would never have heard it before.
00:26:18.000Anybody with brains and a little bit of talent and persistence can have a voice.
00:26:24.000And that is why, to get back to the original subject of this interview, this Twitter suit, this way of making it a guaranteed fact that we are able to spread our views through these modern media is so important.
00:26:37.000But if we have this, we have a real fighting chance.
00:26:41.000And as I say, for the first time, for the first time in maybe the 28 years I've been doing this, in the last several years, I've been very optimistic.
00:26:48.000People who have just come to this way of viewing things, they are easily discouraged by what is.
00:26:54.000In my mind, just a temporary setback because compared to five years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, we are light years ahead and we're going to continue to be that way.
00:27:03.000Well, yeah, I mean, it is about having a certain sense of proportion of where we've been and where we are now.
00:27:09.000I think maybe because social media makes everything move so much more quickly, I think people get kind of this tunnel vision of, you know, the world is ending right now.
00:27:19.000If we don't get it right in the next 30 days, it's all over.
00:27:31.000And I think that the establishment has worked so vigorously to silence us on the internet.
00:27:38.000To shut us down on Twitter, on YouTube, and everywhere else is because it's working.
00:27:42.000I think they understand better than we do how fragile their system is, how quickly they can spiral out of control if your message, my message, people, other people horizontally in this movement gets out to a wider audience, the kind of audience that the people who get the stamp of approval get access to, what kind of chaos that would cause for the system that they've created.
00:28:04.000So it's such an important thing, and it's really inspirational to see that.
00:28:08.000There are people that have soldiered, you know, you say that you started an American Renaissance before I was born, that have soldiered on since the beginning and have seen setbacks and decades and slow growth.
00:28:19.000But I really am optimistic about where this is headed.
00:28:22.000And the lawsuit is a big part of that, definitely.
00:28:25.000Well, you know, I don't mean to sound too excessively sentimental, but my feeling is that we should not chart our course of action after having weighed the chances of success in some sort of calculating way.
00:28:42.000I think you and I feel a duty, an obligation to what we know to be the truth.
00:28:48.000And once we have discovered our duty, then even if failure seems likely, that does not mean we deviate from our duty.
00:28:57.000And so I'm not in the business of always sort of playing the odds, figuring out, well, what are our chances today as opposed to yesterday?
00:29:13.000And that's a great point that you make.
00:29:15.000It's something I talk a lot about on the show about this idea that, like you say, even if there was no chance, even if it was a slim chance, that's not why we do it.
00:29:25.000There's nothing more that we could do than our best to try for those small opportunities.
00:30:32.000I must have spoken to her for an hour and a half.
00:30:35.000I've not seen the documentary, by the way, but I understand I'm in some of the opening scenes.
00:30:42.000But that is very much what they like to do.
00:30:46.000They will talk to you for an hour, an hour and a half.
00:30:48.000Two hours, and then they will try to pick whatever little snippet they can out of it, whether in or out of context, to make you look like the wicked and boneless, brainless person that they want to portray you to be.
00:31:03.000So, as I understand it, I'm asked by her if I see her as my enemy.
00:31:09.000And then I'm answering to some effect as to, well, objectively, if things go on as you wish them to go on, then my people will disappear.
00:31:18.000But no, you personally are not my enemy.
00:31:20.000Is that a fair characterization of what I said?
00:31:27.000But what was she setting me up as, and why at the beginning?
00:31:31.000You can tell me about this documentary because I haven't even seen it.
00:31:35.000Yeah, well, the reason I bring it up is actually because the three minutes that you were on, you were in on the beginning and also a little bit towards the end.
00:31:43.000The reason I bring it up is because by far you were the most eloquent, and even the few minutes that they chopped up, and I know so well because I've been interviewed.
00:31:54.000To a lesser extent, but I've been a part of that process where they interview you for four hours and they clip four minutes, five minutes, right?
00:32:02.000And the reason I bring it up is because they have you for 30 seconds at the beginning, towards the end, and in between you, they have the National Socialist Movement.
00:32:12.000They have some other people with what I like to call lesser optics, bad optics.
00:32:17.000And why I wanted to bring it up with you is really to just emphasize the importance of presentation because.
00:32:24.000I could tell that as a filmmaker like her, she listens to your work, she listens to your thoughts, and the facts that you bring up, it's totally reasonable.
00:32:32.000You know, anybody could watch probably that hour and a half interview or your speech that you gave at American Renaissance and say, This is a reasonable person.
00:32:41.000But she trimmed it up, and not only trimmed it up, but put it alongside some of these other more unsavory characters.
00:32:47.000And what do you think just about that kind of juxtaposition all the time of, well, people who talk about A white homeland, about racial politics.
00:33:04.000Well, the motive is clearly to lump us all in the same boat.
00:33:08.000And the suggestion is as soon as you deviate in the slightest possible way from orthodoxy on all racial or national questions, then you are effectively Adolf Hitler.
00:33:19.000That is the argument they're trying to make.
00:33:21.000And it becomes slightly easier to make that, or maybe significantly easier to make that, if you take Uh, a clip of a guy like me or like you and then immediately show a cross burning or immediately show a bunch of guys, uh, sig hiling.
00:33:36.000Then the, the aura is that we are all part of that, that we may not necessarily do those things, but we're just dying to, you know, my, my right hand is just, I gotta keep, keep it down all the time, but it's tremendous effort, you know, and in my sleep, I'm goose stepping.
00:33:53.000Now, this is, uh, this is the way they, they try to describe us and they will, oh, the Southern Poverty Law Center, for example, says, uh, I'm careful to avoid racial slurs.
00:34:04.000I mean, I'm just not in the business of making racial slurs, you know, as if they're all on the tip of my tongue.
00:34:09.000I'm just bursting to say all these horrible words, but I manage, at least when I'm on camera, you know, to avoid doing this.
00:34:16.000No, it's a caricature of the most dishonest kind.
00:34:20.000What I find really, really entertaining, and I wonder to what extent ordinary readers or viewers will understand this, but they will often introduce what I think is an entirely reasonable quotation from me by saying, and white supremacist.
00:34:37.000And the hate monger, as designated by the Southern Poverty Law Center, says this.
00:35:22.000So, and to me, that is one of the bigger obstacles in getting out to the public, getting out to a mainstream audience is this idea that when you talk about white racial politics, if you spell it out for people with the data and with the theory and all the rest, it basically makes sense.
00:35:39.000You know, all we're saying is multicultural societies, multiracial societies don't really work very well.
00:35:45.000And we want to live in a society that works.
00:35:47.000But it has all of that lives in the shadow of things that are.
00:35:53.000Like you say, a caricature, things that are ugly and maybe a little bit out there, a little bit fringe.
00:35:58.000And so to me, you look at the success of people who before were described as alt right now, they're kind of called the alt light, you know, these characters that are a little bit in the mainstream, but still kind of on the outside.
00:36:10.000The key to getting out there is to maybe not go out of our way to live up to the worst expectations, live up to the caricature.
00:36:19.000And as you do, as many of us have for so long, you know, Put on the shirt and tie and be a little bit respectable and put out a message that is as reasonable as it is.
00:36:29.000I mean, is that, do you agree that that is a big part of getting the message out?
00:36:37.000I think I remember reading some, oh, some estimate that in politics or in salesmanship, the message is 50% how you dress, 40% how you look, and 10% what you say.
00:36:52.000Now, that's probably an exaggeration and a caricature, but people are.
00:36:59.000And the contents have always come along with a package.
00:37:04.000And when you think about it, from whom would you want to buy a car?
00:37:09.000From whom would you want to learn a new idea?
00:37:12.000Whose argument are you going to be most likely to accept?
00:37:17.000It's very, very easy when we look back on our own experiences to realize that much as we may wish to be purely rational, purely objective, we are swayed.
00:37:27.000By appearance, by presentation, by packaging.
00:37:30.000All of these things are, you know, we're human beings, much as we would like to think that everything we can evaluate in the cold and calculating reasonable manner.
00:37:40.000That's not the way human beings change.
00:37:43.000Human beings are emotional, they're drawn to things that have a kind of psychic appeal, an emotional appeal, something that reaches deep into them that's not necessarily verbal or rational.
00:37:55.000Now, these things are very difficult to control, but we can control our appearance.
00:38:00.000And we can certainly avoid doing things that we know are going to offend a vast, vast number of people.
00:38:08.000One of the things that I absolutely hate about how not only the left behaves, but the right as well, American politics is full of people who, in effect, claim to read each other's minds.
00:38:21.000This is true, certainly, of the left, who will say that Donald Trump hates Mexicans or I hate Mexicans.
00:38:30.000Blacks, all of these motives, they have passed a law because of this.
00:38:36.000They can never attribute a rational or reasonable motive to people on the other side.
00:38:42.000The fact is, we sometimes fall for that temptation as well.
00:38:47.000I can't tell you how many people with whom I've discussed Angela Merkel.
00:38:52.000Of course, she's the chancellor of Germany, and she has led in this wave of Muslim immigrants that's transforming Europe in what we think are horrible ways, and which the Germans likewise are finding to be horrible ways, and they're beginning to speak up about it.
00:39:06.000But people will say, gosh, she just must hate Germany.
00:39:36.000And I think also, if she even thinks in these terms, she might think that, well, all of these young men who, With the right environment and training, can become good little Germans, just like people who've been there for 100 generations.
00:39:50.000These people will make up for our falling birth rates.
00:39:53.000But primarily, and I think this is typical of the way Europeans and Americans behave, primarily, I think she's convinced that she's doing the right and generous thing.
00:40:17.000I have no idea what she's like as a person.
00:40:19.000But to attribute base motives to someone like her or someone like Nancy Pelosi or Hillary Clinton, it is true that objectively they are doing things that are very, very destructive to us, to our culture, to our people, to everything we love.
00:40:34.000But I don't think that we can expect to be taken seriously and judged fairly unless we take others seriously and try to judge them fairly, to accept their expression of their motives.
00:40:47.000Only then, I think, can we expect them to judge our motives, Farrell.
00:40:53.000And that's so key when you're dealing with, you know, maybe not world leaders, but when you're dealing with people that you know, people in your family, your neighbors, the compatriots that are going to make this happen.
00:41:03.000Is you look at a liberal, and I think that's a really fair take in terms of you could look at a liberal, and we know what liberalism will beget for things that we love and care deeply about.
00:41:17.000But at the same time, we acknowledge that.
00:41:20.000They think, like you said, that they're doing the right thing.
00:41:22.000And to understand and to communicate with that opposition, I think we have to be fair to it.
00:41:30.000Like you say, and people say, well, the left comes after us, this and that.
00:41:34.000But in terms of the country, in terms of the people that are not the elites that are not making these big decisions, I think when you're looking at just, and even the elites in some cases, I think if you're looking at other people, it does a lot of good to be fair and to come at it from that kind of understanding.
00:41:50.000I think that's a great point about those conversations.
00:41:54.000Let's face it, in order for the country to change in the ways that we want it to change, more people have to agree with us.
00:42:04.000And again, as I mentioned before, what are the effective ways to reach people and to change their minds?
00:42:11.000I think any kind of expression of mean spiritedness, of triumphalism, of any kind of visceral contempt for others, all of these things are very, very off putting.
00:42:24.000A neutral or mildly hostile or entirely hostile audience comes to us and expects to hear something from us.
00:42:33.000They are looking for any possible excuse to discredit whatever we say.
00:42:39.000And that can be the way you look, the words you choose, your demeanor.
00:42:43.000And certainly, I think people are going to find it much, much easier to dismiss what you say if you lose your temper, if you express yourself in ways that are insulting to others, if you don't grant the good intentions of others.
00:42:58.000All of these things are just going to give people who already disagree with us and who are looking for reasons to disagree with us an excuse to ignore everything we say.
00:43:10.000When people are insulting you, it's hard to continue to be polite with them.
00:43:14.000When people are making one crazy, stupid inference after another from reasonable points you're making, it is difficult to maintain you cool.
00:43:23.000But under those circumstances, I think if you can, that is the best way to present our messages.
00:43:29.000Now, the messenger is often very much the message.
00:43:33.000So we have to, well, this is another aspect of our situation.
00:43:37.000If we are in a position, in a group, And we have any control over who the public outreach, the public face of that group is going to be.
00:43:46.000We have to be ruthless about eliminating people who are not going to present the message in a useful way.
00:43:52.000This is something that is of key importance for larger groups.
00:43:56.000But you simply cannot let people who do not have any control of themselves be the ones that carry our message and try to make our points for us.
00:44:08.000Well, that you say that we are like salespeople is really the.
00:44:13.000I mean, once you understand politics in terms of goals oriented around, we have these ideas, we have these ambitions, now let's achieve them practically.
00:44:23.000You understand that we have to win elections to do that.
00:44:26.000Like you say, we have to persuade people to agree with us.
00:44:28.000And, you know, many people call me, they say I sound like a used car salesman.
00:44:33.000And it's kind of true, but it also gets to the point of what we're trying to do, which is to sell, which is to persuade, which is to get people around our way of thinking.
00:44:41.000And I think the prototype for the kinds of people that have done this are.
00:45:48.000Occasionally, you'll find someone who can talk about real life or death issues, but do it in a way that does not sound as though it's life or death.
00:45:57.000And if you can actually joke about things, be self deprecating, you're absolutely right about Donald Trump.
00:46:03.000He's not often self deprecating, but he says things that are funny, things that convey to an audience, even a hostile audience, just how human, how real, how likable, how genuine he is.
00:46:15.000I think when he first came on the scene, that was one of the huge aspects of his appeal.
00:46:20.000Compared to all of these cardboard cutout politicians who have to have five different focus groups and 25 advisors to tell them what position to take on any issue of the day, he would just say, I say this, I say that.
00:47:07.000Well, and that's really key, I think, to the message is that we're the good guys, you know?
00:47:12.000And I think a lot of times people get caught up in reveling in the fact that we are dissident and we almost, in a way, internalize the things that are said about us.
00:47:22.000You know, I think it started out as a joke where we said, Oh, yeah, you know, we're really hateful.
00:47:33.000And that is such a crucial part of it that our message is that we're trying to save society.
00:47:39.000You know, when we look at these white liberals who can be so frustrating, you know, I look at some of these conservatives at CPAC, these young men, and they're promoting mass immigration.
00:48:02.000Like you said, 90% of it is going to be in that presentation.
00:48:07.000And the unfortunate part, I think, for what we've been finding out in the past couple of months is like you also said, we have to be ruthless with cutting out the people that are going to do a bad thing.
00:48:17.000And you think about it in terms of like a corporation.
00:48:19.000You know, if McDonald's has a vice president who's out on the street, you know, running around naked with a lightsaber on the highway, you know, they're going to fire him because he's.
00:48:51.000I don't think that, as a general rule, it's useful to criticize people in public.
00:48:55.000These public fights, I think that just gives fuel to.
00:49:00.000Any opponent who is looking to try to find bad things to say about all of us.
00:49:04.000But yes, we have to be very careful about who we in effect endorse.
00:49:09.000This is a very delicate matter and it's often, I think, the sort of thing that should be discussed in private rather than airing our disagreements in public.
00:49:16.000But whenever you have a dissonant message, you have to be particularly careful about how you convey it.
00:49:25.000Anything that is out of the ordinary, out of the mainstream, you have to be very careful about it.
00:49:30.000That's one of the reasons why I think it's important also.
00:49:33.000If you have taken A dissident position on one thing, it's unwise to take an equally dissident position on something else.
00:49:41.000Because if you are, oh, the moon is green cheese, the earth is flat, or if you take some sort of position that's outside of the mainstream as well, that becomes yet another, yet another reason to say, oh, this guy's just a complete kook.
00:49:55.000And that, of course, is the objective of our sternest and most persistent enemies, such as the ADL or the SPLC.
00:50:07.000Hatemongers, on the assumption that once having been informed that we are hatemongers, that means the American public realizes our minds are unhinged, we are motivated by the basest emotions, and that's all they need to know in order to not even bother to listen to a word we say.
00:50:27.000That has been, I think, a very, very successful tactic for them.
00:50:31.000The SPLC will never sit down and argue with someone like me or you.
00:50:37.000They, at this point, because What they say is accepted by the general zeitgeist of our times.
00:50:43.000All they have to do, although this tactic is becoming less and less successful, in the past, all they've had to do is say, this is one of our designated hate groups or hate mongers.
00:50:55.000And then that means the public at large and certainly the mainstream media don't have to take you seriously.
00:51:01.000That has been a successful tactic, but I think it's less and less successful all the time.
00:51:06.000I mean, they rely on delegitimization because.
00:51:09.000Because you're so correct in that if a Jared Holt, if the SPLC, the A deal, if they sat down and actually had to debate the ideas, I think most people, conservatives, and certainly I think a good amount of people in the middle, would find themselves agreeing more with us as opposed to this radical, cosmopolitan, open borders vision of them.
00:51:28.000I mean, that is the biggest tool in their arsenal.
00:51:32.000But also, as time goes on and as they expand it, greatly to our benefit, when they apply it to people like Ben Shapiro and to Steven Crowder, and they say, oh, everybody's a white supremacist.
00:51:44.000That's when it starts to lose its value.
00:51:46.000So they really have overplayed their hand in the most spectacular way.
00:51:51.000The left, it's astonishing to me, they would be much, much smarter to stick to much more convincing targets.
00:52:00.000When they start saying that the scientific method is white supremacist or that speaking in standard English, this is an oppression of Hispanic minorities, they've just gone too far.
00:52:12.000They sound like idiots, they sound like cuckoo birds.
00:52:15.000The more they say that kind of thing, and the more, oh, Black Lives Matter.
00:52:19.000I think Black Lives Matter drew more people into our movement than every video I've ever made, every article I've ever written, every book I've ever published.
00:52:30.000When they started behaving like that, more and more white people realized, well, wait a minute.
00:52:37.000So when you get Antifa out there roaring around burning things and attacking policemen, and they're supposed to be the good guys, and we're supposed to be the bad guys.
00:52:47.000I feel like calling up George Soros and saying, send those guys another couple of million, George.
00:52:53.000We want them to keep doing exactly what they're doing.
00:52:56.000Well, and they say never interrupt your enemy when they're making a mistake.
00:53:00.000And a big part of the left since the election of Donald Trump has been they've jumped the shark, where even left wing people, and you saw this in the Midwest during the election, are saying, yeah, okay, we're for higher taxes and maybe we're for democratic socialism, but we're not for, like you said, that math is racist and all this other wacky stuff.
00:53:22.000I think so often you see that we do kind of get in the way of them making that mistake, but it would be much wiser for them to, like you said, just carry it out because so much of it is, at the end of the day, to our benefit, persuading people the other side.
00:53:36.000And Black Lives Matter was particularly beneficial.
00:53:38.000So many people on my Discord server, my fans who I talk to say, yeah, really it was when Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown and the Black Lives Matter thing came around because they're being honest.
00:53:50.000You know, they're really, at the end of the day, being honest about what the left wants, which is, This very aggressive, very racial kind of stuff.
00:53:58.000And yet there are people that want to say, well, we want to be just as distasteful as them.
00:54:02.000We want to meet them in the streets and do the rest.
00:54:10.000When people, when black people get on Bernie Sanders' stage when he's giving a political harangue and they make him say, Black Lives Matter, and they say he better not say, All Lives Matter, good grief, we couldn't get a better advertisement than that.
00:54:27.000And of course, the mainstream media will never couch that in the obvious terms that it deserves.
00:54:36.000But ordinary Americans see something like that and they say, what's wrong with all lives matter?
00:54:43.000And the kinds of mental gymnastics that lefty professors will go into to say, well, you know, all lives matter is somehow denigrating black lives.
00:54:52.000And black, we can say black lives matter because throughout American history, black lives haven't mattered.
00:55:16.000I just love it when they do that because sensible people can see right through that and they will come to our arms in drones.
00:55:24.000Yeah, and I think that's a great silver lining for that kind of stuff because you see that every day, the propaganda, whether it's online or on television.
00:55:33.000And I think the knee jerk reaction for sensible people is, oh, God, you know, really?
00:55:38.000I mean, are we at that point right now in the country where it's gotten that absurd?
00:55:42.000I think it's very easy to say, okay, well, you know, it's clown world, all hope is lost.
00:55:47.000But I think a much more prudent way to look at it, like you said, is that's doing us a great benefit.
00:55:52.000You know, every time you see these, you know, for example, we're in, what is it, LGBTQ History Month or whatever, you know, people look at this kind of thing and we say, oh boy, oh brother, here we go again.
00:56:04.000But I think that displays like this, they do much more good than harm to our cause.
00:56:11.000They're bad for society, but, you know, normal people, I think, look at it and they have the same.
00:56:15.000Gut reaction that we do, and that's always good.
00:56:18.000And it looks like we're running out of time here.
00:56:49.000And of course, we have videos and articles too that we'd love for you to watch and to read.
00:56:53.000But our real concern right now is keeping this lawsuit going and keeping the momentum, keeping the pressure on Twitter, make those guys crack.
00:57:02.000But it's going to take time and it's going to take money.
00:57:05.000Well, thank you so much for coming on.
00:58:08.000He's been a part of this for a long time.
00:58:10.000So I think he's really, you know, if you're talking about people you should listen to about these kinds of matters, he's one of the number one guys out there.
00:58:33.000The generational communion coming together and discussing, and I think he's the guy to listen to.
00:58:39.000So, a lot to think about free speech, optics, all the rest.
00:58:42.000You know, when he started to talk about, oh, you know, infighting should happen in private, not public, I'm like, yeah, definitely, you know, because we know that I'm maybe a little guilty of doing the public infighting, but it was great to have him.
01:00:20.000And here's the thing, you know, it would be one thing if they wrecked the country and then they just went away, right?
01:00:26.000And I'm talking about the majority of boomers, not the good ones.
01:00:30.000It would be one thing if they came and they inherited all this wealth and prosperity and peace and they blew it all up, you know, and they wrecked it and then they just went away.
01:00:40.000But it's not enough that they did all that.
01:01:01.000And they're like, Oh, this kid is a twerp.
01:01:04.000So it wasn't enough that they came, they got all this great stuff, things we would kill for, threw it all away.
01:01:11.000And then they're going to come online and we're complaining about it, we're trying to cope.
01:01:17.000Living in, you know, men among the ruins and all the rest, and they're going to intrude and say, haha, you don't believe in QAnon, you're a liberal, you know.
01:01:28.000So that's what really gets me with the boomers wreck my economy, destroy my nation, you know, crush the white gene pool.
01:01:37.000But then you're going to go online and antagonize.
01:01:39.000That's a bridge too far, it's too much.
01:01:49.000I was trying to get some insights that he hasn't talked about much before because, I mean, we know that, you know, Jared Taylor's a very prolific guy.
01:01:57.000He's on a lot of streams and debates, and he's put out so much work.
01:02:00.000So, I really try on the interviews to get enough information where people are not too familiar can get filled in, but also some new insights.
01:02:09.000And I think covering the white pill, I think really embracing this idea that the world is basically our oyster.
01:02:17.000We have this duty, we have this obligation.
01:02:20.000As long as we carry it out and we understand that maybe there's a chance or maybe there's not, we're doing the right thing.
01:02:26.000I think that's a really inspirational message to hear from somebody like Mr. Taylor, who's been doing this forever, you know?
01:07:13.000And I relate to that because these minor inconveniences caused me to commit acts of violence against technology, which I will never apologize for.
01:07:22.000Technology should be afraid of mankind.
01:07:26.000But the moment that really spoke to me in the movie was at one point Michael Douglas goes into a store, it's a biker store.
01:07:34.000And there's like a neo Nazi working there.
01:07:37.000And the neo Nazi's been following this guy's escapades.
01:07:40.000He's fighting the man, he's fighting the system.
01:07:42.000And this guy goes, You and me, we're the same.
01:07:47.000And Michael Douglas goes, No, I'm an American, and you're a sick asshole.
01:07:51.000And I was like, You know, I can relate to that because you have so many people that try and claim ownership where, you know, they got the SS tattoo on the back of the neck, they're waving the Nazi flag.
01:08:03.000They're probably part of the federal government, if you want to be completely honest.
01:08:07.000And they're like, yeah, you're on my team.
01:08:09.000And it's like, no, no, no, not really.
01:08:12.000You know, we could talk about some issues with that without going all the way there.
01:08:56.000So, you know, literally bubbling, coursing through my veins are red and white blood cells that are saying, sacrifice, sacrifice, praise the sun gods, cut the hearts out.
01:09:25.000I'm in the gym throwing weights around, getting juiced and jacked.
01:09:29.000And so when people tell me you got to reel it in, you can't fight, I struggle so much to try and reel it in.
01:09:36.000But I am limited to an extent by my biology, which is naturally drawn towards.
01:09:44.000Conflict, confrontation, yelling and fighting, and not physical fighting because, you know, there's a lot to protect here.
01:09:52.000You know, I've noticed I've never been challenged to a fight by a good looking person because, you know, then you have something to lose, right?
01:12:11.000I should have had this set up before the show, but I've been so busy today with premium content and pre recorded content, and it's been a lot, you know, manually putting in premium memberships and all that.
01:12:22.000So I didn't really have time to set this up, but I do want to show you.
01:15:04.000This week we talked about the history of nuclear, or I'm sorry, of denuclearization, nuclear disarmament in Libya, South Africa, a really informative show.
01:15:14.000Tomorrow, we're coming out with a brand new episode of 2018 Election HQ.
01:15:18.000We'll be gauging the different elections, where we stand in the midterm, so it should be good as well.
01:15:24.000You also get the audio only format of this show and a premium role in the Discord server.