00:00:54.000I believe we should protect the environment, and I believe that everybody should make enough money to feed themselves and have access to health care.
00:01:01.000Believe it or not, Republicans and Democrats share the same objectives.
00:01:05.000The real debate is over the means to achieve them.
00:01:08.000But for 40 years, the left and the right, but particularly the left, has hijacked these noble objectives as solely their own.
00:01:17.000They have framed the debate in such a way that if you're not with them on the means, then you're against them on the ends.
00:01:26.000If you don't want a government overhaul of the entire healthcare industry and a Leviathan bureaucracy to administer it, then you must want poor people dropping dead in the streets due to preventable illnesses just so you could spare a quick buck, you capitalist swine.
00:01:39.000If you don't want hordes of young, violent, ignorant punks calling for the murder of innocent police officers that raze entire neighborhoods, then you're a racist and you don't care if black people die.
00:01:49.000If you don't want another 10 year bloody, trillion dollar nation building engagement in the Middle East and the corresponding panopticon surveillance state at home, which uses the Bill of Rights as toilet paper, well, then you're an isolationist and just as responsible as the terrorists for killing innocent civilians, all because you wanted your precious privacy.
00:02:09.000The list goes on and on, and this is so crucial.
00:02:11.000In understanding this discussion about feminism, because without a concrete and honest assessment of the underlying principles of the movement and its reforms, we cannot have a reasonable discussion on how best to achieve the desirable ends which we all pray for a more just society.
00:02:28.000Now, the definition of feminism is advocacy of women's rights on the basis of political, economic, and social equality to men.
00:02:35.000Now, at face value, this seems reasonable.
00:02:37.000Women should be equal and have rights, of course, but analyze closer.
00:02:44.000Equality of opportunity or equality of outcome?
00:02:47.000Is it preferable that both sexes have an equal opportunity to participate in the political process or that both sexes are equally proportionately represented in government?
00:02:56.000Let's tackle equality of outcome first.
00:02:59.000Now, presently, women represent 18.5% of the House and 20% of the Senate.
00:03:09.000Surely they should have 50% of the seats in Congress.
00:03:12.000However, as Thomas Sowell once said, almost nowhere in human affairs do you find people equally represented.
00:03:19.000In 2011, the NBA was composed of 78% black players and 17% white players, even though whites make up 63.7% of the total population and blacks only 12%.
00:03:32.000Should we fire 30% of senators to replace them with women and fire 65% of the NBA to replace them with whites?
00:03:39.000Now, of course, this would achieve equality of outcome.
00:03:43.000But would it not be sexist and racist to hire and fire based solely on race and gender?
00:03:49.000Equality of opportunity would dictate that so long as there are no legal or de facto barriers to female participation in politics, then the percentage of women would merely reflect women's preferences.
00:04:01.000In this scenario, equality is consistent with liberty, and America is united, seeing Congress not as a battlefield for social division, but as the wretched hive of scum and villainy which it is.
00:04:14.000Once again, the question becomes equality of opportunity or equality of outcome.
00:04:19.000One of the most commonly accepted fallacies originates from this debate the mythical gender wage gap.
00:04:26.000Now, for almost 40 years, feminists have rallied against a sexist nation which only pays its women 77 cents for every dollar a man makes.
00:04:35.000Even the phrasing of this nonsensical claim is deliberately misleading.
00:04:40.000This oversimplification and accompanying outrage implies that somehow women are getting paid less just for being women, as though somewhere every major company gets together to index the rate at which women are paid so that they're only getting 77 cents to the man's dollar.
00:04:56.000In actuality, to state the same fact in a more sensible and honest way, average income for all women is 77% of the average income for all men.
00:05:07.000What is disputed is that this represents a wage gap or systemic institutionalized sexism.
00:05:15.000If we connect the dots here for a moment on this notion that women are paid 23% less than men across the country, then the foregone assumption, the foregone conclusion, is that somehow at almost every business, every place of employment, The employer is a sexist pig who hates women and purposely pays them less.
00:05:33.000Also, ignoring the fact that if this were true, any company could lower their labor costs by 23% just by hiring all women, and they could drive any other company in America out of business.
00:05:44.000Now, this wild assumption aside, the data does not support any wage gap when you're comparing comparable groups of people.
00:05:51.000Now, on average, women work less hours than men, work less consecutive years than men, work different jobs than men, and study different subjects in college than men.
00:06:01.000Therefore, comparing their wages to men's in the aggregate is comparing apples to oranges.
00:06:07.000In all fields, when controlled for comparable hours, experience, time in the workforce, and education, the wage gap all but disappears, and in some cases, women make more than men.
00:06:17.000Equal pay for equal work is real economic equality, and that is just what we have under the present system.
00:06:24.000Equality of opportunity, too, applies here.
00:06:26.000So long as there are no barriers to female participation in the workforce, unequal outcomes are the result of unequal. or equal opportunity, unequal inputs, and the freedom to choose.
00:06:39.000Now, really, this can only be measured comparatively.
00:06:41.000There's no objective quantitative measure of culture.
00:06:44.000But let's look at other cultures, as ours is generally just chivalrous behavior.
00:06:49.000In India, it is not uncommon for women to be burned alive by their husbands if her family does not provide sufficient dowry, you know, because they still arrange marriages there.
00:06:58.000In Saudi Arabia, famously, famously, women are not allowed to drive, leave the house, Show any skin in public and in many cases in private, or pray in the same spaces as men.
00:07:10.000In more than 30 countries, female genital mutilation is employed to purify women's bodies.
00:07:15.000And in more than 14 countries, women are killed to preserve family honor.
00:07:19.000Given these examples and countless more around the world today, frankly, I find it sickening when feminists here will condemn America from the cushion of their computer chairs and behind a screen for manspreading or being catcalled.
00:07:32.000Now, of course, there's a question of abortion and birth control.
00:07:37.000Fundamentally, about the supremacy of rights of either the mother or the unborn child.
00:07:41.000The contraceptive debate is a debate about positive and negative rights.
00:07:45.000Contrary to the political circus, neither of these issues constitute a war on women.
00:07:50.000There's no baby killers, there's no people oppressing women, has nothing to do with this.
00:07:54.000Rather, these are complicated constitutional questions which happen to be regarding a feature specific to women.
00:08:02.000Many also propagate the absurd claim that one in five women get raped in college, that there is some invisible rape epidemic on college campuses.
00:08:12.000The one in five number is based on a study, one study, which surveyed two universities.
00:08:17.000And the survey itself was bogus anyway.
00:08:20.000According to the Washington Examiner, this study was actually an online survey that took 15 minutes to complete.
00:08:26.000Only 5,000 people took it, and they were provided a $10 Amazon gift card on its completion.
00:08:32.000This survey would not pass AP statistics, let alone serve as basis to shape federal policy.
00:08:38.000It seems then that the only widespread social problems women face today in America is obnoxious men, but that's an everybody problem.
00:08:46.000After breaking down each of the goals of feminism, which are political, economic, and social equality in America, You can sensibly conclude that feminism had won a long time ago and is now an anachronism in the 21st century West.
00:08:59.000Modern feminism, modern Western women have more economic, political, and social equality than women of any other country at any other time in history.
00:09:08.000We should be grateful and not so spiteful.
00:09:11.000The real feminist movement ought to be directed at Asia, the Middle East, and Africa.
00:09:16.000And it is shameful to pretend that the imaginary oppression of women in America even approaches the real persecution of more than 50% of the world's women in these regions.
00:09:26.000I support the liberty of all groups anywhere, so call me a feminist.
00:09:30.000But the fight for women's rights here is over.
00:09:51.000The subject of our show today is feminism.
00:09:53.000We have a lovely panel here today representing a wide spectrum of ideas and philosophies.
00:09:58.000We have Hallie Sturrett and Ann Staple-Callett.
00:10:01.000Now, ladies, we'll just go down the line.
00:10:03.000What is your opinion of modern feminism, Ann?
00:10:05.000Well, I would say I'm a supporter of it.
00:10:07.000I know earlier before the cameras were rolling, you mentioned third-wave feminism, and I think that I agree with you that a lot of those things are based on the outcome versus means, I think was the word that you used, and I think that over decades and centuries, the outcome versus means, Outcome has always been the same, but I think criticizing the means is what you're really going about.
00:10:28.000So, then, Anne, is there still a need for feminism in America, or do you think we've largely achieved the objectives that we sought out?
00:10:35.000Absolutely, I think there's still a need for feminism in America.
00:10:37.000And I agree with what you're saying that there are definitely things globally that we need to focus on, but I think it's a bogus way of thinking to say that because other people are suffering, that makes our suffering invalid.
00:10:47.000I think what feminism is, is it covers all of those grounds and it covers every single thing.
00:10:52.000And I know that I come from a place of privilege when I say that, and I'm not saying that my My needs as an upper middle class white woman in America are more important than anyone overseas in Africa or Asia.
00:11:05.000But I think that feminism is about making our objectives equal.
00:11:12.000So the things that we need to do over there and the things that we need to help with are equally as important as the things that we still need to deal with in the U.S.
00:11:18.000Well, what are those things that we still need to deal with?
00:11:21.000I mean, in Saudi Arabia, they're cutting people's heads off for adultery.
00:11:24.000And here, I mean, what's the biggest issue that women face?
00:11:27.000The biggest issue that women face, yeah, there's higher rates of domestic violence among women.
00:11:34.000There is higher rates of sexual harassment in the workplace because of women.
00:11:38.000There is what I think to be an epidemic of sexual assault on college campuses.
00:11:46.000And I understand that you're citing an obviously bogus survey, but I still think that it's something that needs to be looked at.
00:11:57.000And I also think that equality within Romantic and sexual relationships need to be equal between men and women, which I don't think they are right now.
00:12:05.000Yeah, I understand that there's not anything near the things that we used to face or the things that other countries are facing, but that doesn't mean that we need to turn a blind eye to it and say we're good enough.
00:12:14.000I think good enough isn't how we should look at equal rights between men and women.
00:13:08.000I mean, and I don't know that they ever saw it getting as far as they did with all the things that they accomplished.
00:13:15.000With that being said, there's things like in all social issues that people are always going to be pushing for more.
00:13:21.000So I don't know if there's ever going to be a point where we're satisfied.
00:13:25.000And that's sort of human nature that they're always driven to be better and achieve more.
00:13:30.000And we just see this more and more how we want more rights for everyone.
00:13:34.000And I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but I am saying that there is.
00:13:37.000A point where some people are going to realize that enough is enough and you can't always achieve what you have in your ideal mind?
00:13:45.000Well, I think that, I don't think there is an end objective.
00:13:48.000Well, I think that there's, I think that, I mean, we've all agreed, and it's said by every single person always that, like, we're never going to achieve these things.
00:13:57.000We're never going to get everything perfect, and I think that's absolutely true.
00:14:01.000But I also think that what's, that can't stop people from still trying to make a better society.
00:14:07.000And I think that that's never, a perfect society is not going to be achieved in our lifetime or our kids' lifetime or our grandkids' lifetime.
00:14:15.000But I still think that the point of, The point of feminism and the point of fighting racism and the point of pushing for equality, there isn't a specific on this day when this happens, we will be done, but it is a continuous effort to make things better for our generation, for the generation that comes next.
00:14:32.000All right, well, I think that's a fair conclusion to that question.
00:14:34.000I think we can find some common ground there that we all agree that we always should be striving for more.
00:14:39.000I think the difference of opinions here is what constitutes sufficient.
00:14:54.000Well, I don't want to argue all the statistics that you've thrown out already.
00:15:02.000I think that it's something we need to look at and it's something we need to be taking seriously.
00:15:07.000I don't have the numbers that you do to back those kind of things up, and I don't have the statistic to shut you down, but I don't think that we're ready to wave that off as being imaginary yet.
00:16:03.000And I'm not saying that there aren't women who make the choice to stay at home, and I'm not saying that that's a bad choice.
00:16:09.000I completely support that choice to have that be what you dedicate your time to.
00:16:14.000But I think that that's kind of a false way to look at it because I don't know the motives for a lot of those choices that women are making that lead to that number.
00:16:24.000Well, and that's the argument that they make is that the real sexism is not exactly the institutional discrimination in the workforce.
00:16:30.000But more so the societal discrimination when people pigeonhole women into certain professions or lifestyles.
00:16:37.000And I tend to disagree with that on the grounds not of that women should do something or should not live a certain way, but on the grounds of women are the most educated gender.
00:16:48.000They're graduating college at higher rates, more degrees, and in many instances making more money than men in certain fields, like I said.
00:16:54.000So I think on the grounds of human dignity, I don't know if we need a maternalistic or paternalistic feminist movement saying to women, Well, your choices are invalid because you're not making as much money, or we should have total equity.
00:17:08.000You know, just as with the NBA and just as with, you know, engineering degrees, you look at aeronautical engineering or metallurgy engineering, it's 80, 90% men who get those degrees.
00:17:19.000I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing that people are making disparate choices.
00:17:22.000I think you have that in a free society.
00:17:24.000I wouldn't say that I think it's a bad thing that there's making those choices, but the effect of those making the choices is that then becomes the norm of what?
00:17:31.000I mean, I feel like it's a cycle that feeds itself.
00:17:32.000Because these people make these choices, you get these fields that are majorly men.
00:17:37.000And that within itself may be okay, but what happens then is that becomes the expectation that that's how things become a man's field.
00:17:46.000The reason that they're in the men's field isn't the problem, but the reason that they're then expected to be a more masculine field of study, I feel like it fuels itself to make that argument.
00:17:59.000I would agree with her on that, just because, like, as me, I'm looking into it, like, I want to major in math, and it's just kind of like when you tell people that.
00:18:07.000It's you kind of like are given a strange look, or you know, like I don't know that I'm not someone that should be doing that.
00:18:14.000And I took calc at COD this semester, and the class was I think we had five girls and 25 boys, so it's like it's largely males.
00:18:24.000And it's like they don't really, I'm not like they don't disrespect you, but they kind of like it's like if you don't do something correctly, you're not, it's kind of like expected almost.
00:18:35.000And it's like they kind of, it's not that they want you to fail, but it's not a surprise, yeah.
00:18:41.000And I would say that is generally speaking, like women are more sensitive than men.
00:18:49.000And like girls probably, I mean, they do get discouraged more easily than men.
00:18:56.000Like they don't, they can't just like put up a, you know, a shell.
00:18:59.000And this is generally speaking, obviously, because there are exceptions.
00:19:04.000But I don't think that, like, if it's completely dominated by males and then you go into it, it's, And you fail like they expect you to, then it's an expectation and it's not so much a choice, as she was saying.
00:19:19.000No, and I agree, and I think you made some good points there, especially that women I do think are pressured into certain fields or pressured out of them.
00:19:28.000Where I disagree is that I think the movement is then not, well, we need feminism then to support women to go into these fields so that they cannot feel pressured.
00:19:38.000I think, because I am libertarian, I think the pressure should then be.
00:19:42.000Well, everyone should just be an individual.
00:19:44.000If we are going to be a gender blind, color blind society, and that's a very Marxist conception.
00:19:49.000You don't want to be a gender and color blind society.
00:19:52.000And I think if we want total equality, it should be that women should be supported and given the courage to take up those fields in spite of that.
00:20:02.000And I think feminism can be a way for that to happen.
00:20:08.000Because, and I understand that personal anecdotes are helpful, but sometimes they don't prove a point.
00:20:13.000But for me, a lot of the things that I. You know, we're at the stage where we're going and we're starting to decide our professional careers.
00:20:19.000And I think that's super cool that you're majoring in math, by the way, that's awesome.
00:20:22.000And deciding, you know, what I would like to major in in college, where I'd like to go to college.
00:20:26.000A lot of the things that I've been looking at, I've definitely felt discouraged because it feels like a male dominated field.
00:20:33.000I'm going for music, probably music design and production.
00:20:36.000And a lot of the things, especially from a performance aspect and from a production aspect, it is a fairly male dominated industry.
00:20:46.000And what has really helped me, Find my motivation to go into it anyway has been the feminist movement and seeing other powerful women who support feminism doing those things.
00:20:57.000So, when you say women being supported into going into fields, I think that's what feminism is good for.
00:21:02.000Well, yeah, and good for you then, and good for feminism that it does have that positive effect.
00:21:07.000I think we should support causes like that.
00:21:09.000But going back to the gender wage gap, I think then if I can pitch a resolution here, another common ground, if you will, I think then the solution is not the Equal Pay Act, which will force.
00:21:20.000Employers to pay the same for women according to rigid standards.
00:21:23.000I think businesses generally pay equal amounts for equal work given the competitive nature of business.
00:21:29.000I think then the solution to the supposed gender wage gap problem, I don't think the problem is the gender wage gap.
00:21:35.000I think the gap is in those fields and the pressure on women.
00:21:40.000So, then I think the solution would not be anything that addresses employers, but more so feminist groups and women.
00:21:47.000And I think that should be more of a social movement, more of a social outreach by feminists and other strong women in those fields like math to reach out to young women rather than some legislation by Congress.
00:21:59.000I would agree with Sir Nixon, and I think that we're making those movements to have things like that, especially in STEM fields.
00:22:07.000I still would, I'm not ready, and I guess this may come from a lack of information, but I don't know if I'm ready to write off the idea of making sure that there is equal pay for equal work, and I obviously don't know as much as you about that topic specifically, but I would say, I guess, on a fairly general scope, I agree with you.
00:22:29.000Yeah, I would say I agree with both of you on the fact that, well, I don't know enough to say that I don't want a legislation about it, but I also think that there's not really that much of an effort.
00:22:41.000If you are going into a field that's not so like, you know, like women involved and whatever, I feel like people make it kind of uncomfortable for you.
00:22:52.000Yeah, like when you do show interest, like it's like you're almost being pushed to so much that you don't want to do it because that makes it feel more uncomfortable than if you were just to go in and experience it naturally.
00:23:03.000Like, people hear, like, that I'm interested in math, and it's like, now I'm overly being pushed.
00:23:13.000And then it's like, Look at this person who did it before you, and it's like, I don't really like, I just kind of want to experience things for myself.
00:23:20.000But then when it's like being pushed on you, that it's so almost like counterproductive what they're trying to do because it's looked at as an unnatural thing.
00:23:29.000Like, you should just be able to do what you want without like you know having these things.
00:23:34.000And if that need, if you need to have equal pay like guaranteed from the government to ensure that you are able to do what you want to, then maybe that is what we need to do.
00:23:43.000I think your solution is good, but I also think that that.
00:23:46.000Nature of solution would take a long time to set itself in society and in our culture.
00:23:54.000You're right, and it is those social movements which are the most difficult.
00:23:58.000And my opposition to feminism comes not from an opposition to women's rights or anything like that.
00:24:02.000I think we do have a lack of empathy and understanding in the modern discourse where people can't find the common ground and the objectives or in common means relating to them.
00:24:13.000So I think that it is going to take a social movement, and as someone that's for limited government, My problem with feminism comes from government as an expedient, as something, a band aid on a much larger social problem that we've discovered, which is women being pressured, rather than just something that can be legislated away, signed by the president.
00:24:32.000I would hardly call it a band aid and more of a means of help.
00:24:38.000Because I agree that I think that these things will mostly be solved.
00:24:41.000I mean, it's going to take a strong social movement to get these things, but as we just said, it's going to take a long time.
00:24:50.000And as I said earlier, I mean, we are pushing for the next generation.
00:24:53.000And the reason we're doing these things is so when we have kids and we see each other at our high school reunions, we know that our kids will be having better opportunities than we did.
00:25:01.000But that still doesn't exclude the people that are living in this culture right now that aren't getting the same opportunities that they deserve.
00:25:08.000And how do we deal with those right now instead of just saying brushing them to the side and looking towards what's going to happen in 30, 40, 50 years?
00:25:16.000Yeah, and that's, I guess that's true.
00:25:38.000I think that just dawns on me that while conservatives call for longer term solutions that do fix the problem and are more organic and they are more of a labor, I think people are and act in such a way that we can't have those long term solutions.
00:25:54.000At least we need short term solutions in the meantime because we're a restless people.
00:25:58.000You have things like the French Revolution or the Russian Revolution or a pending American Revolution when things don't move fast enough.
00:26:07.000So, I think there is room for doubt that it is solely long term.
00:26:12.000So, I think that is a helpful common ground for the American people.
00:26:20.000The last question is this When will feminism win if it hasn't already?
00:26:27.000And I know we talked about endgame, but is there some level, is it a general acceptance that certain things are wrong or almost 99% where certain sexual assaults or whatever doesn't happen?
00:26:58.000I don't think that there is winning or losing in a movement like feminism or really any social movement.
00:27:04.000I don't think it works like that because it's not a war, it's not a battle, it's a movement, and it's about continually pushing forward.
00:27:11.000So the idea of it winning, I think, is looking at it the wrong way.
00:27:15.000I mean, we talked about Endgame, and I said that I don't think there's ever going to be a day where we're like, feminism is no longer needed.
00:27:21.000I think that we are always going to need it, and I don't think that's a bad thing necessarily.
00:27:27.000I don't think that winning is possible because I don't think that this is a battle or a thing that you can win.
00:27:32.000I think it's a movement and it's an ideal that we need to keep in our heads.
00:27:48.000However, I do believe that it will, like, I mean, we've been witnessing what we believe as inequality since this country began.
00:27:59.000And I don't know, I mean, of course, there's been tremendous grounds that have been gained.
00:28:04.000But I don't think that it will, like, in just as we said, like every single social issue, there's always going to be something more that we can do.
00:28:11.000So I don't think it will ever be won, if you want to call it that.
00:28:16.000Like, if you look at gay marriage, I mean, The legislation was passed, or the Supreme Court ruling came down, but there's still half the country that isn't for it.
00:28:26.000And it's like, so can they call that a victory on paper?
00:28:29.000Yes, they can, but socially they're still facing their problems and whatever.
00:28:36.000So I would say that, yeah, I don't think it ever will be won.
00:28:43.000I do agree because, and this is a closing thought, America was founded.
00:28:49.000With civic institutions, with a moral people.
00:28:52.000The idea that government was limited and could be limited because its people were moral and took care of each other with their own voluntary organizations, like the church, like feminists, the suffragettes, you name it, civic institutions, not government institutions.
00:29:07.000And I think that's what we need more of in this country: a discourse like this between good, honest Americans looking for real solutions and not grandstanding by corrupt politicians.
00:29:19.000And I thank you for coming on my show and finding some common ground and expressing your thoughts.