Asatru Folk Assembly - The Truth is Out There...and here's Part 2 of it

00:00:00.000 I was thinking of another one, tactically, Joe. So, in my career bouncing, I have tactically

00:00:15.560 altered perception when dealing with folks.

00:00:21.340 um just putting this out there sometimes uh you know especially when things are on camera

00:00:29.860 the crowd hears what you say more than they observe what happens so if you're in an altercation

00:00:37.460 with somebody whether you want to be in the altercation or not sometimes it's tactically

00:00:42.640 sound you very loudly on camera and in front of the crowd say sir please stop fighting sir stop

00:00:47.280 fighting me, sir. Please stop resisting me. I don't want to fight you. Because that looks really

00:00:52.700 good if anything happens down the road. But sometimes you may actually want to be involved

00:00:59.080 in the altercation and maybe more active participant in it than you want to admit.

00:01:06.800 That may or may not have been a scenario that I know something about sometimes, allegedly.

00:01:17.280 So, we've got a three-parter here, and I'm going to try to read this without butchering it,

00:01:25.480 because there's a lot of things to it. Can truth be determined, and this is from Danny,

00:01:30.100 can truth be determined from pure reason, or is reliance on pure reason unreasonable and

00:01:38.200 illogical without a metaphysical underpinning? Since we cannot test philosophical truths

00:01:44.940 without accepting that things can be true in nature, yet entirely understandable by nature.

00:01:54.880 Philosophical truths cannot be tested as can material ones in a lab. It seems to me that

00:02:01.320 reliance on a materialistic worldview does not comport to the idea of philosophical truths

00:02:08.340 could exist let alone be knowable there's a lot there and i want us to try to respond to that as

00:02:17.620 best as we can but we may need to refer back to the question to do that cliff what are your

00:02:24.660 thoughts on that i think they have whole college courses about that question um i think the

00:02:32.260 i guess the answer is yes i mean there you know

00:02:42.500 there are truths that you cannot prove um directly anyway um so you you know that

00:02:51.540 it's it's correct that um you know that that that rational reasoning or that that scientific

00:02:59.300 methods may not be able to to verify some truths um it may be worth the attempt though because we

00:03:07.860 probably don't know which ones those are until actually going through the process um i mean this

00:03:15.300 is a question where we can you know we could go to plato or we could go to discrete mathematics

00:03:20.820 and start drawing truth tables and you know there's just a lot in in that question i think

00:03:27.620 you know if if if you're asking you know can we determine if the existence of the gods is true

00:03:38.340 we can observe evidences of that we know that they're true because we see things in our lives

00:03:48.980 and in the world that indicate that yes they they exist um but i don't think you're gonna get

00:03:56.660 you know a a scientifically vetted and republished paper proving

00:04:03.620 the existence of something uh metaphysical or spiritual

00:04:10.820 so

00:04:14.740 as a as a question to ponder i think that it's it's a valuable exercise um but like so much

00:04:25.940 with also true that you know perhaps is frustrating but in the spirit of truth is worth mentioning

00:04:35.620 there's a lot of gray area to things and i think that um

00:04:42.340 an attempt at honesty is valuable even if every particular of it doesn't happen to

00:04:48.180 bear out factually if the intention is truthful we do ourselves a disservice

00:04:55.940 We're acting as though because we can't prove everything to be 100% true, that then nothing is true. There's certainly things that are that are true and that aren't, even if they're 85% true versus 15% not true.

00:05:16.520 um we letting perfect be the enemy of good in that is stifling and I think

00:05:25.580 prevents us from from being virtuous people in a way um

00:05:30.560 like there's there's schools of philosophy that that you know is existence real or are we living

00:05:38.520 in somebody else's you know matrix or somebody else's you know imagine imagination is existence

00:05:46.300 relevant to the individual perceiving all of these questions are really interesting to think about

00:05:53.740 sometimes but i think that too often they become a dodge towards you know living honestly there's

00:06:03.900 things that are true that we all know are true and to to act as though they're not because we

00:06:12.380 can't empirically prove them beyond any possible shadow of any doubt on a quantum level misses the

00:06:21.740 you know forgive the overuse here but it misses the truth of the equation and i say this about

00:06:28.060 our lore and this brings it back to metaphysics um our lore is not literally true all the time

00:06:36.460 but our lore is metaphysically true so often truth is described in analogy or in

00:06:48.140 colorful story form that is not meant to be literally true but expresses truth

00:06:56.380 and i think that that here on things that

00:06:58.940 that materially materially are impossible to prove a hundred percent I still think that you

00:07:09.020 can approach truth without you know without defining it to the to the nanomolecule I think

00:07:16.940 things are still generally true or not true um and I'm not sure if that's the the meat of the

00:07:22.940 question, but I think it gets towards it. And again, we want to strive for perfection, but I

00:07:32.980 think that we do ourselves a disservice letting perfect be the enemy of good. You go with the

00:07:37.520 best thing you have at your disposal. Some of this, it occurs to me with your question,

00:07:42.540 involves things that are like issues of belief. Whether we believe in material reality or not,

00:07:50.580 I think that most of us know material reality exists and it's a thing and it's real.

00:07:57.500 But when we talk about a person's faith, that is a situation where I think that my truth may have an application because I can say on a polygraph with a thousand percent honesty that Odin has interacted with me.

00:08:14.600 And I mean that 100% true. But other people listening, it does not conform to their understanding of what they know to be true. And same in the inverse with things. So I think that that's a gray area that perhaps does touch on what you're talking about and on the previous question in a different way.

00:08:36.480 I think it's fun that you mentioned, or at least hinted at simulation theory, because I've always taken issue with simulation theory because I don't think it matters. It's like the most bogus question that I can imagine.

00:08:51.500 because if you prove that we're all in a simulation right then what is what's the

00:08:56.940 point in that is it a way to find an excuse to commit heinous crimes without consequence

00:09:02.380 except that in the simulation there will be consequences so it's still reality it's

00:09:10.860 i i've i've always had a problem with simulation theory because uh it it seems like it's an excuse

00:09:18.380 to not have to like literally a way to create my truth or to excuse oneself from reality um

00:09:26.860 except that it in no practical way actually does that yeah i think that um

00:09:36.220 that's that's one of those things that when i read esoteric books and and they venture into

00:09:40.700 it i start eye rolling and and taking issue with because i think it it skips the point if

00:09:46.620 If your navel gazing prevents you from acting in reality, then it loses a lot of value.

00:09:56.660 I've known so many, I say so many, I've known a number of people that have wasted

00:10:01.700 vast quantities, if not the entirety of their life, pondering truth and refusing to act until

00:10:11.220 they had absolute certainty of truth and so they end up not doing anything i think you've got to

00:10:18.500 conform to what's the truest you can understand and by all means if your understanding of the

00:10:26.020 truth evolves over time then then move you know trend towards the more truthful but you gotta

00:10:33.380 you gotta pick something and go with it and and i think there's a tremendous value in that

00:10:38.180 and as far as truth plays into what i just said it's important to be honest with ourselves

00:10:46.100 on things that we don't know if we think something's mostly correct to still maintain

00:10:52.660 in our mind the openness of re-evaluating it for truth i think that honors our virtue that

00:11:00.100 we speak about and also is a very useful skill for us to have and and it's hard for a lot of

00:11:06.820 people i know it takes practice to have that um next question is from travis is it okay to lie

00:11:18.980 to save someone's feelings cliff

00:11:23.700 i don't think so no um if if the wife asked me if she looks fat in something i'm gonna tell her

00:11:31.700 in a positive constructive way what what the truth of the matter is i don't i don't because

00:11:39.640 what are you sparing their feelings for or from you know i mean this is a specific the specific

00:11:47.100 situation might dictate different courses of action but i don't think that lying is going to

00:11:54.280 actually make it better um you know you're either depriving them of a learning experience

00:12:01.460 or you're setting them up for for more hurt feelings somewhere down the line like you know

00:12:09.720 if my kid's goldfish dies I'm not going to tell him that you know down the toilet he swims to

00:12:17.980 like you know a big happy ocean I'm gonna take the opportunity to explain mortality and I think

00:12:26.360 that's the way to go. So no, I don't think so. You know, is it okay? I mean, it certainly is

00:12:35.800 understandable. And I understand the impulse to it. And I think as far as the hierarchy of

00:12:42.840 horribly evil things you can do, saying something nice to spare somebody's feelings that's untrue

00:12:49.200 is is probably pretty low on that list but i agree with cliff and i think that here's where

00:12:56.640 the art comes in there is ways to tell people truth that are kind and that are uplifting um

00:13:07.920 you know he mentioned the the the common hey do i look fat in this dress thing that that i think

00:13:14.560 that all of us men have been in similar if not the exact situation about that

00:13:20.640 i'll always answer that honestly whether anybody wants to hear it or not because 0.98

00:13:27.840 in my experience a woman would much rather hear that from someone they trust so that they're not

00:13:35.760 embarrassed later on i know that i would if i looked ridiculous in something i really hope

00:13:40.720 that mandy tells me to fix it instead of me going out in front of people thinking i look like a

00:13:47.120 million bucks and getting laughed at because the moment i realized that everybody was laughing at

00:13:51.440 me because i looked like a fool that would be much more crushing than hey matt i think i'd go with

00:13:56.800 you know a little bit you need some you need some pants that are bigger hey i'd go with something 0.77

00:14:00.800 different um honesty helps there and the specifics so i appreciate he followed this up with a specific

00:14:07.200 scenario um he said what if they were dying and a lie would bring them comfort and something i

00:14:20.000 this i suppose can be argued but something that i think is fundamental

00:14:25.360 we have a certain instinct towards truth or not and there's a value that i get when i

00:14:33.680 know someone's telling me the truth that i don't get when i feel like somebody's telling me

00:14:39.520 something that's false um again is it okay i certainly get the impulse but i would rather

00:14:49.600 tell that dying person something truthful but also give them truthful encouragement

00:14:58.720 and you can always find something positive to say that's true it sometimes it may be more

00:15:05.880 challenging than others but you can say you know well unfortunately no but and then tell them

00:15:14.300 something that is truthful and they they can hold on to and and have and i would say this

00:15:21.280 I would much rather go out with my friend telling me something honest than feeling like my friend lied to me on my deathbed.

00:15:34.360 I have some friends that are EMTs and something that they shared with me across the board at different times is just something that I think is true among people in, you know, medical or emergency services.

00:15:49.760 is like if you have somebody in the back of your ambulance and they're like am i gonna make it

00:15:55.600 you don't just say yes if they're not going to you say something positive but you don't just

00:16:01.120 yeah everything's gonna be fine don't mind you know the catastrophic injury because they

00:16:08.800 they already know the answer i think secondly don't don't rob somebody in your scenario and

00:16:16.320 again context is everything and it can be a million different ways but telling somebody

00:16:22.720 they're going to make it instead of you know no you're you're dying you're robbing them of the

00:16:29.440 chance to make peace with things or to to bear that themselves in a in a dignified way um they're

00:16:40.640 not getting that option if they don't know the truth if they don't know the truth they can't

00:16:45.840 act upon it this is assuming they have some time to act again that it all depends on the circumstance

00:16:52.080 but i still think as a kindness to someone you care about it is more kind to be honest

00:17:00.000 than to treat them dishonestly in an attempt to to spare their feelings yeah i think they they

00:17:07.120 said they would say something along the lines of like we're we're on our way to the best care

00:17:13.280 or something true but that's not like you know a guarantee for something they really can't

00:17:18.960 guarantee well you know here's another thing that people may want to be cautious about too

00:17:24.400 when we talk about truth don't ask questions you don't want the answer to um i think that's

00:17:31.280 another one when you ask somebody for truth you can't be mad when they give you truth um

00:17:37.760 i i remember that all the time though well as an afterthought um i had my spleen removed

00:17:44.240 in 2001 it was my first big major surgery and uh they were about to put me under to take my

00:17:52.720 spleen out and i asked like you know what are the odds that i don't wake up from this

00:17:58.240 and they're like about 16 boom and then they put that yeah and i i didn't really want to hear that

00:18:05.760 that's higher odds than than i than i wanted of not making it out of it and uh you know fortunately

00:18:11.760 i was in the the 84 that do make it but that was probably shouldn't would have been better if i

00:18:20.000 didn't ask the question uh we have over in the side chat that uh the genes do not make someone

00:18:26.240 fat it's the fat that makes them look fat and i think that that also tends to be a truth um

00:18:32.560 Um, but yeah, so, and, and I think that's a fun conversation tonight.

00:18:39.440 And I think it, it veers in some places that our conversations on here don't always go.

00:18:45.320 Vril Vanir, are there valid reasons for the gods to be untruthful to us?

00:18:53.140 Comfort, comforting lie slash keeping us safe from harm.

00:18:57.560 Or would they rather be bluntly truthful and have us face the problem head on?

00:19:05.540 It's a really interesting question. Cliff, what are your thoughts on it?

00:19:10.540 Well, I don't know the minds of our gods, so I'm going to have to just, I guess, say yes.

00:19:21.720 But as far as, you know, what they would prefer or motives, I think that that would take a level of hubris for me to assume that I could speak for them in that way.

00:19:44.040 So I am very proud of you, Cliff, that you answered that way.

00:19:47.640 I want everyone in AFA leadership to answer that way because piety dictates the gods can make rules for us.

00:19:58.400 We don't make rules for the gods.

00:20:03.400 I'm not sitting where they sit.

00:20:05.620 I don't know what they know.

00:20:07.120 and I don't have the authority or the appropriateness to dictate the bounds of what

00:20:17.240 our gods can and can't do or should and shouldn't do. I think it would be impious to impose that

00:20:24.560 upon them. Now, what I will say is in my understanding, our gods certainly want to

00:20:30.720 encourage truth and facing truth courageously. That seems to be something that is fundamental.

00:20:42.560 And they want us to rise to circumstances with a certain amount of courage and stoicism,

00:20:49.380 even when we know that an outcome isn't what we want. So I think that the gods certainly

00:20:54.820 encourage truth amongst us and want us to be able to respond. If we are presented with an easy hand

00:21:04.980 and comforting lies, it takes away our opportunity to act with virtue, to act with

00:21:13.060 any of several of our noble virtues, with perseverance and pushing through adversity,

00:21:18.260 with courage by being afraid of things and still acting, the more the gods are dishonest to us,

00:21:27.520 the more we're unable to live up to those standards that they want us to have. So I think

00:21:34.120 that generally speaking, no, the gods don't want to function out of dishonesty to us. But again,

00:21:41.800 I would not presume to tell the gods what to do or not to do. And I think if we look at our lore,

00:21:48.260 um the gods are certainly capable of deceit they have employed it against

00:21:54.340 jotens on numerous occasions to their own benefit um

00:22:01.700 i think that um you know what what we think they want for us and what what we think um

00:22:09.700 their agenda is are not always in alignment with what's what's what's with what's real um

00:22:18.180 when we talk about you know praying and asking for things from the gods this comes up sometimes

00:22:25.860 in that uh you know if you are i said in in our in the previous show that i was on i think um that

00:22:35.060 when i'm asking for something for myself that i go to my ancestors because i think that they

00:22:40.200 have a much more direct concern about my individual well-being and that of my immediate

00:22:48.520 family than you know that say odin or thor would because odin's busy worrying about

00:22:56.040 the universe and all of our folk with a capital f and all of the aesir and ragnarok and all of

00:23:04.600 these other, you know, he's got a pretty busy plate. And, you know, whether or not I get a

00:23:14.520 raise or, you know, whether or not the car makes it home or some of these smaller things that

00:23:22.000 people are, you know, inclined to, you know, petition our gods for. I don't think that it

00:23:31.800 even come the details like that necessarily come into their much grander plans

00:23:38.380 and if it does it not in a way that i would understand you know if somehow my heart breaking

00:23:46.860 down delays ragnarok then i guess that's what's going to happen but i probably will never know

00:23:51.660 Filthy heathen. Sorry if this has been asked, came in late to the stream. Is truth absolute

00:24:01.920 or can truth evolve? What do you think, Cliff? Truth is absolute. Our understanding of truth

00:24:10.420 evolves or lack of understanding, which is probably more accurate.

00:24:14.540 it yeah absolutely i think that our ways of describing truth hopefully trend closer and

00:24:24.700 closer to perfection um i think there's ways to understand truth generally and as we evolve in

00:24:33.120 our understanding to be able to narrow down the specific depth and breadth of those truths

00:24:39.380 in different ways, but truth is absolute and it's objective. Truth exists

00:24:44.240 whether we can articulate it or understand it correctly or not. Something is either true or

00:24:50.460 it's not. Allie asks, what is the biggest truth one can tell or show someone to bring them home?

00:25:02.240 It's a good question. Cliff, what do you think the biggest truth one can tell or show somebody

00:25:08.140 that would that would bring them home to us true is also true is your birthright your ancestors

00:25:15.340 literally are still alive in your blood in your dna and those ancestors are a physical link

00:25:24.140 to our most ancient ancestors the the gods and goddesses

00:25:30.940 so you said tell or show and this is is critical here because i don't think that telling

00:25:37.660 by all means tell them this but i think that showing this really works

00:25:44.140 the gods are real and listening um

00:25:50.540 that doesn't mean much when you say it to somebody who's uninitiated and that doesn't

00:25:56.860 have an experience but if you can show it to them it means everything i've said that on here but one

00:26:03.100 of my um one of the most profound experiences as a gothi is when you are involved in a ritual

00:26:14.300 or you perform a ritual and it becomes real to someone and there's a lot of people who go into

00:26:23.580 rituals or also true and maybe have been involved for a long time and they they think it's real

00:26:29.500 they believe that it's real they want very much for it to be real but something happens when it

00:26:37.100 is real for them and you see it in their eyes when all of a sudden something metaphysical

00:26:44.780 something transcendent happens and they experience it and you can't go back from that once you know

00:26:51.420 that it's real it's it's real and you can't unknow it so showing somebody the reality

00:27:00.060 of our gods listening and interacting in a ritual way

00:27:06.940 i i think that is the most effective thing to bring them home if you can facilitate that

00:27:13.980 happening and uh that that's not just something that you can show them it's something the gods

00:27:18.700 have to show them i mean i think that i do a good job in bloat um i i feel like i do a good job in

00:27:25.980 it but if the gods don't respond well or if the gods don't feel that i do a good job with it then

00:27:34.620 i can't show that to them so you know the the gods certainly have to cooperate in order for

00:27:40.060 that to be shown but being a part of that showing is is a very special thing if you can do it

00:27:48.700 We'll be right back.

Asatru Folk Assembly - February 13, 2024

The Truth is Out There...and here's Part 2 of it

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