Asatru Folk Assembly - Trolls, Dwarves, Elves, Oh My!

00:00:00.000 uh mishila give you mcnellen yeah you know we've got some topics i have a couple of comments about

00:00:09.200 yeah um burning the sun wheel it is something that we do at yule um as we do at midsummer

00:00:16.000 and the idea is that uh in burning in fact thorgrin and katie before they joined the afa even

00:00:23.520 had their own kindred and they had one that would actually spin and it was um spin wheel spin uh

00:00:31.840 spin world spin burn wheel burn and they would do that i don't know if you've heard that one

00:00:37.200 but they would spin theirs um again to speed on the return of the sun and so we we always have

00:00:43.840 that of course we're outdoors it's really neat because it's at night outdoors and we can do um

00:00:48.800 burning some whale at yule um let's see songs we do songs we actually have song books and some

00:00:57.440 have been adapted from others but um you know there are a lot of songs that have not been

00:01:03.600 changed i think we three kings for instance i loved that as a kid we don't have any kind of a

00:01:08.480 quote heathen version of it but there are several that we do um but there are as you say duck the

00:01:15.120 hall's boar's head carol talk about a very ancient old english song and a lot of them

00:01:25.440 autonom bomb you know whether it's done in english or in german definitely that's us so

00:01:30.880 they're ones that just that any group could do and not feel like they're infringing or taking from

00:01:38.480 or borrowing from christianity at all but even so there's some fun ones that can be done

00:01:44.160 um so yes we do that we have song books and i think this year daniel odom is making up some

00:01:50.080 new song books i'll be interested in seeing what they're like be happy to share with you

00:01:54.720 and then i have a question because i don't think you were on the go there call the other night but

00:02:02.000 there was talk about troll wives and thinking about all the trolls that are in yule stories

00:02:08.080 these days and how prominent the elves and the trolls are in Scandinavian literature this time

00:02:14.460 of year for Yule. And for instance, I like the Jambret. Who's that knocking? Who's that knocking

00:02:22.120 on Christmas Eve? Is that right? I think that's the one where the trolls get into the cabin and

00:02:26.280 try to break in and the little boy and girl are up there trying to keep the trolls out

00:02:30.020 and they finally get chased out by a polar bear that they think is a cat. Anyway, it's a cute

00:02:35.420 story but it does have trolls and the trolls are mischievous right and that's what they're supposed

00:02:40.700 to be um daniel was saying to me can we come up with things for the kids that are kind of thematic

00:02:46.620 we can give them lessons through our lore but also they could do crafts or some other activity

00:02:52.460 and certainly a story just wondering how you feel about trolls because we really haven't

00:02:56.540 addressed that and they are so prevalent in modern uh culture with children nowadays

00:03:05.420 that's for you katie i know i don't know that i have an answer to that right now because i've

00:03:15.060 never really thought about it i know i've heard about troll lives before but i've like i said

00:03:19.860 i've never really thought about it so i can't answer that in this exact moment but i could

00:03:24.880 definitely come back at you with an answer a little bit later after i have a chance to think

00:03:29.920 about it i'm not i'm not always the best at coming up with these answers at the top

00:03:33.480 off the top of my head like I like I need to think yeah I get that I'm kind of the same way 1.00

00:03:40.800 um the idea that the troll wives are there to to cause problems between in relationships between 1.00

00:03:47.840 those who are in love or to even steal children away there's a jealousy aspect to the troll wives 0.88

00:03:54.060 and yet we kind of make them cutesy for the kids and I'm just wondering is there 1.00

00:03:58.200 you know a uh an issue with bringing more trolls into um our yule celebrations if

00:04:07.400 indeed they're seen as being too mischievous but maybe ron's got some ideas about this

00:04:12.640 i don't know i i do know personally that we we treat uh trolls as being

00:04:20.440 akin to yotans we don't uh like when we're talking to owen and alice we don't treat

00:04:27.280 trolls as being positive things we treat them as being negative things they are generally chaotic

00:04:32.660 so we tend to try to focus them more on like gnomes and land whites when we want to talk about things

00:04:39.160 like that um like the zoo uh has a they call a boo zoo the boo at the zoo every year and we go to

00:04:48.260 the zoo at night in costumes and there's always like a troll guarding the one bridge they have

00:04:52.720 over this creek and we even when it's not halloween time we still call that the troll bridge

00:04:58.520 every time we go over it and we're like oh you better go faster the troll will come get you you

00:05:02.600 know because there's so many stories like the three billy goats gruff for example where the

00:05:10.300 trolls are are bad so i mean i just i i keep it light because my kids are only four and six but

00:05:16.960 generally trolls are bad guys and who eat people and chew on their bones and suck out the marrow 0.80

00:05:23.440 things like that you know right yes yes definitely in our lore that is how they come across

00:05:29.940 um all the cute ones that you can buy and and make you do toys and all but anyway i get where

00:05:37.600 you're coming from i think that needs to be our approach and just explain to them no they're they

00:05:41.960 are agents of chaos and we don't we don't want them around they do not help us when it comes to

00:05:49.020 like the trolls like the treasure trolls that they used to have when i was a kid that i think

00:05:53.480 they've started to sort of bring back or trolls the movie where they're all singing and happy and

00:05:57.720 stuff the kids have never really asked me if they're the same and i've never treated them

00:06:05.520 like they were the same i always you know but it's never come up but if it were ever to come

00:06:11.040 up like well you know those are pretend they're just you know somebody came up with the idea to

00:06:17.960 have silly trolls once but they're really more like gnomes or something like that like right

00:06:22.780 kind of deflect because yeah trolls are not positive things they deserve spots in our lore 0.78

00:06:27.860 though because we can learn from them because we can learn from all the stories that have

00:06:34.620 negative things in them. But yeah, Ron, you have your hand up.

00:06:54.340 Did you still want to say something, Ron?

00:06:58.060 Oh, yeah, I should probably unmute myself. But to your point, to give you McNallan's point is that

00:07:03.740 Trolls, um, we can't forget changelings. Changelings in our lore, especially Scandinavian lore, were human children that were stolen by trolls, but they replaced that human child with a troll child, the changeling, and those were, um, those were, um, well, I, all the fancy words are escaping me right now,

00:07:31.940 But those were a baby that would, instead of suckle on her mother's teeth, they would shoo and bite.

00:07:41.140 As they grew, they wouldn't have empathy.

00:07:43.220 They would be cruel to the cat, to the dog, and the family.

00:07:46.740 They would kick over the milk.

00:07:48.200 They would be wretched to the farmstead.

00:07:50.840 So, yeah, trolls are definitely not something in general that were seen as a hailful thing. 0.74

00:07:59.420 They were more a woeful thing.

00:08:01.940 wow look who just arrived spawn so my question spawn was uh you mentioned trolls um during our

00:08:12.180 gather call and trolls are so prevalent in yule stories and for various traditions and we i didn't

00:08:21.380 ask you but you know what do we do with trolls at yule this time of year if you have some ideas

00:08:27.860 how do we explain it to children

00:08:31.940 uh trolls specifically yeah because they're troll yeah there are lots of trolls and stories

00:08:39.140 and um you know little little trolls that children can make crafts the it's big and in crafting

00:08:46.420 making trolls and the little you know the big noses and the beards and all and little tiny

00:08:51.860 trolls um and they're made as being very cute but you know we know that they're a menace they're a

00:08:58.980 problem you don't don't want to have trolls around so i'm just wondering how if we want to address

00:09:04.760 trolls at yule because they are in so many stories and they are often they are often um at least

00:09:11.440 mischievous if not worse in stories but i'm just wondering if you've ever addressed the trolls at

00:09:19.020 you all time with kids um yeah i uh the big thing about that is the stuff that we see like i used to

00:09:29.880 have playing cards when i was a kid um with with the little norwegian trolls with the the shock

00:09:37.120 like haystack gray hair and uh the bumpy warty nose and and a tail um that actually is the

00:09:46.840 christianization of trolls um after the conversion trolls at first were seen as demonic forces and

00:09:59.520 i think that is correct in the sense that our ancestors also the the also true ancestors saw

00:10:07.720 the troll as a, as a terrible force. And then it kind of transferred over to the, um, the kind of

00:10:20.420 Christian ideas. Uh, trolls were still seen as, uh, earthly beings that lived in dark and desolate

00:10:28.160 places, but, uh, they could do certain things like, um, they would kidnap people. And one of

00:10:37.020 the things, actually, I have it in a book upstairs. I could, when we, when I get a break

00:10:44.440 or a little bit of, or something, I can run upstairs and grab it. This troll woman captured 1.00

00:10:55.040 a man and screamed in his ear and turned him into a troll. And this is all like just after 0.97

00:11:06.040 the conversion period,

00:11:07.700 there was a woman who

00:11:09.760 was kidnapped

00:11:11.880 by a 0.96

00:11:14.200 male troll 0.90

00:11:14.900 and was forced 0.99

00:11:17.920 to have children

00:11:18.940 and she started to turn

00:11:21.640 and then a priest went up there

00:11:24.140 and placed a cross on her forehead

00:11:25.860 and it burned into her forehead

00:11:28.220 and broke her from her

00:11:30.080 spell and he drove

00:11:32.020 away the troll.

00:11:33.540 So like, 0.95

00:11:36.040 Pre-Christianity, trolls were not to be trifled with. They were terrifying beings. 0.96

00:11:42.840 Post-Christianity, they were still terrifying, but the church used them as a caveat to kind of,

00:11:50.940 you know, explain its existence. Kind of like how possession movies are now.

00:11:57.520 If people are demon-possessed and the priest always comes in and saves the day.

00:12:02.160 And then, eventually, as secularism became the primary driving sense of the Nords, the trolls became commercialized as cartoony, tiny, happy day little creatures that could be mischievous or what have you.

00:12:30.100 Um, I think the biggest thing is, is that creature that they're referring to is more like, and in reality, trolls are kind of this way as well. They're technically land whites or they're land veteer or they are, um, Alvar.

00:12:53.020 And that's where I made, made the jump. Um, because the, the, the title Alvar, um, I know

00:13:02.120 it confuses people nowadays, but it's, it's just a title, just like a yacht and is a title. Um,

00:13:11.440 the, um, so like the little creatures that are mischievous or whatever, they're more akin to 1.00

00:13:18.100 land whites. But Alvar is kind of a broad term. The only thing, it gets even more broad if you

00:13:26.820 don't attach a predicate to it. So perfect example of this is the name for a dwarf. I've forgotten

00:13:36.740 which story, but he's referred to as Gandalf. This is where Tolkien got the name for the wizard in

00:13:44.600 his book. Um, Alf basically means something that is perfect with whatever's before it.

00:13:53.940 So a Gandalf is a person or a being who is synthesized with magic because a Gondor is a

00:14:03.600 wand or magic. Um, Leos Alf is a being that's completely synthesized with light. A Svart Alf

00:14:12.460 is one that is completely synthesized with the stone, the smoke, or the energies and pressures

00:14:20.440 of the earth. A dak alvar is a being that is synthesized with the dark, and I think that

00:14:30.560 darkness is poetically death or mortality, traveling hell's road, if you will.

00:14:39.880 so the yule elf is a being that is completely synthesized with yule um so it's kind of that

00:14:53.740 dividing line i i would say if you're talking about trolls for yule but you're not talking

00:15:01.340 about the Yule Alf than, you know, calling them land spirits, calling them land whites,

00:15:11.360 because the, the, all the telltale signs are there. They live in stone. Um, you know, 0.81

00:15:19.120 if they get touched by daylight, so very much like the, the Svart Alvar in the story, um,

00:15:25.780 with like Alvis. So they have all the traits of being land whites, but the, the troll of 0.97

00:15:32.680 our ancestors time, like pre Christianity was much more like a demon. Um, and was, you know, 0.98

00:15:40.880 just terrifying. And we get that a lot from Christianity's like usage of the troll in their 0.95

00:15:49.920 conversions. So I mean, to just answer your question, I would say, you know, referring to 0.99

00:15:58.200 the trolls as like, you know, quirky land spirits of the stone and the trees, and even saying to

00:16:10.580 the kids, you know, they're not like, you know, the other trolls that are really bad and very

00:16:15.880 dangerous. Um, because I, I do think that distinction is important. Trolls that are

00:16:23.880 the real trolls are attracted to places with death and sorrow, um, and inhabit 0.94

00:16:35.260 lonely and desolate places. Um, and they are extremely, uh, mean to living beings. Um, and

00:16:49.740 they, they kind of are confused with poltergeist. And a lot of times, you know, like a Svartalvar,

00:16:59.040 which is connected to the physical, can come into a house and cause all kinds of problems,

00:17:04.300 throw things around, do all kinds of mean and mischievous things. But a troll is malicious and 0.94

00:17:11.060 mean and evil. And, you know, they go to battlefields, they go to deserted cemeteries 0.99

00:17:21.520 and just places of true sorrow. I think the best case that I can think of in the modern times in

00:17:33.980 which a troll has inhabited a place is the Black Mausoleum in Greykirken Graveyard in Edinburgh,

00:17:48.660 Scotland. That's a really interesting story about that place. And if you're interested in kind of

00:17:56.160 like what trolls are really like I would I would say you know go check that out and you'll get

00:18:04.120 kind of more of a the real trolls but um yeah so that's that's kind of my answer to that is like

00:18:13.840 you know they're land spirits that are yeah connected to things and they're not so malicious

00:18:20.480 and what have you.

00:18:25.600 Thank you.

00:18:26.440 That was great.

00:18:27.660 Yeah.

00:18:28.800 Always a font of information.

00:18:31.840 There's never a time where I don't learn something

00:18:34.160 listening to you talk, Swan.

00:18:36.960 Thanks.

00:18:38.380 I don't know how you have all that information in your head.

00:18:43.060 Mine would explode with half of it.

00:18:46.420 Ron, I see you have your hand up.

00:18:50.480 Yeah, I hope I don't hijack the conversation, but Witt and Svan, it's terrific hearing your voice again.

00:18:57.120 But Gandalf, you mentioned, is also a kenning for the Allfather, Odin.

00:19:04.780 Two points.

00:19:05.720 How come you don't think that's a, not you, but how come King Frey doesn't have that kenning as the Lord of Alphine, right?

00:19:18.220 And also during Yule, we always think of the Allfather with the Wild Hunt.

00:19:24.920 But also we see a lot of oaths on the boar during Yule.

00:19:34.620 So I don't know.

00:19:37.340 I guess I'm hijacking the conversation.

00:19:38.880 I don't mean to.

00:19:39.440 But how do you wrap all those together?

00:19:41.020 Going from troll, all of a sudden jumping to Gandalf being Odin, but Ing Frey could hold that title, I imagine, and oaths on the yule boar and the wild hunt and all those. How do you wrap those things together?

00:19:58.960 Well, okay, to address one thing

00:20:01.820 I do not believe Gandalf 0.98

00:20:03.840 Is a haiti of Odin 1.00

00:20:05.800 Or at least it was not

00:20:07.900 Used in

00:20:09.340 Any lore

00:20:13.600 That was written by

00:20:15.600 Simon

00:20:17.520 Durin Snorri

00:20:18.420 It was a name of

00:20:21.680 One of the Dvöger

00:20:23.000 Or Svartalf, the dwarves 0.99

00:20:25.280 In the Vlasbau

00:20:28.960 I do not believe that it was ever used as a, um, a name connected to Lord Othyn.

00:20:40.320 And also, um, there might've been a, um, a king that bared the name.

00:20:49.240 Um, but yeah, I don't, I, uh, to my knowledge is it's never allocated to Lord Othyn.

00:20:58.960 As far as Yule goes, one of the big things about Lord Frey gaining dominion over Leo Salfheim at the cutting of his tooth is, I mean, I find that interesting.

00:21:28.600 the culturing of the cutting of the tooth. Um, and it's never emphasized whether or not it's

00:21:33.700 the first teeth, which a lot of people assume it is, but it might've also been the first tooth

00:21:38.980 lost. And then when the, the new tooth comes in, that was held with, you know, significance

00:21:47.260 by our ancestors, but we don't really know. Um, but I mean, he is called, uh, I believe he is

00:21:56.540 called lord of the elves that i would have to find that um in one of his kennings um but the

00:22:09.420 the the leo south you know are you know more connected to the natural um phenomena of growth

00:22:18.780 and springtime the kind of seen as the the intermediary place between heaven and the world

00:22:25.740 of men, the light beings that are stewards over, you know, vegetative growth and the

00:22:34.080 of herds and, you know, the, the, the, um, kind of fertility of, of the, the, the herds

00:22:44.800 and the cattle and sheep and chickens and so on.

00:22:47.760 Um, so they do play a large amount and oftentimes I think they get, you know, they

00:22:55.720 get labeled as land vetir. Um, just because, I mean, they're, these are just titles that kind of

00:23:03.240 are not super, um, nailed down. Uh, the Boar. So the Boar comes from the, the Anglo-Saxons. Um,

00:23:16.320 those, the lowland Germans that we know that they lived in the land south of the Danes.

00:23:24.280 or the Danae, or what is what the Tacitus called them. But it's strange because the Danae are

00:23:32.960 really old and there is no mention of the Anglos and the Saxons by Tacitus. So they may have formed

00:23:41.680 out of older tribes and eventually became known as Anglo-Saxons. And when they moved

00:23:47.740 over into the isles, they brought much of their traditions with them. And, you know, the, um,

00:23:55.440 the boar was a huge part of their, of their culture. And so there seems to be

00:24:02.440 a massive cult following to Lord Ovin and a massive cult following to the Lord and the lady.

00:24:10.020 and, um, and then like, uh, Thunor was, you know, um, just by the evidence that we have

00:24:20.960 is more or less, I'm not saying that this is absolutely true, but by evidence, you know,

00:24:25.160 we have more poetic storytellings about the Yule father, Lord Odin, and, um, at least

00:24:33.280 boar worship or boar veneration um then then we do have like thor's hammers in the anglo-saxon

00:24:42.580 time frame but they brought that with them and one of the big things about that was during yule

00:24:50.200 oh he does mention the angli yes he does you are correct i think it was the saxon or the

00:24:58.680 the Saxons that I, um, I think he, he doesn't mention, um, and that they may have been from

00:25:07.780 the Ingveons, which again connects to Lord Ing. Um, and so they brought a huge amount of, um,

00:25:20.160 boar iconography. And I think, um, again, the wild hunt and the wild hunt is such a strange

00:25:28.300 thing because I wonder how much the wild hunt was also affected from local Britannian lore.

00:25:43.040 And this might have been an admixture between the Britannians and the Germanic Anglo-Saxons

00:25:49.300 when they came over there. I'm quite positive that the Anglo-Saxons probably, you know,

00:25:56.040 had a winter tidying, um, boar hunt because it's such a perfect time to do it. The, the, uh, 0.98

00:26:04.760 the forests thin out and the, the, the boars are, you know, rooting around for truffles and,

00:26:11.200 and acorns. Um, it's just the perfect time to do it. Um, and I, I feel like some of the, the, uh,

00:26:21.000 the balance between Lord Othyn and,

00:26:25.920 and I'm not going to say Sir Nunus cause we don't really know,

00:26:28.640 but the native,

00:26:30.740 the,

00:26:34.120 the native Britannian God of the hunt,

00:26:37.020 there seems to be this kind of synthesization there and it survives in

00:26:41.860 England with Hearn the Hunter,

00:26:45.760 who is a mortal man and,

00:26:48.020 And, um, but has like supernatural powers and it's kind of like a combination of Lord

00:26:53.920 Odin and whoever, perhaps the Britannic, um, Lord of the hunt is, um, so that time of year

00:27:04.660 having the boar hunt and, and the wild hunt itself, um, is all super congruent.

00:27:13.400 And I think, like, for instance, in the traditions that, you know, that I'm coming from, Winter Finding is the start of the wintertime.

00:27:27.400 And from winter finding to the night of Lord Odin on Yule, he is out riding on the on the wild hunt and taking to the air.

00:27:41.020 And, um, and then at the final day of Yule, the 12th night, um, here at my house, when we celebrate Yule, we always eat a pig's head, um, on the 31st.

00:27:58.120 And, you know, we kind of make like oaths, um, uh, accomplishments that we're going to attain

00:28:07.180 on the head. And that comes from that, that boar hunt. Um, and again, I can't like, um,

00:28:16.540 quote where it absolutely comes from, but I could find it is that where they would make

00:28:23.620 oaths on the head of the boar. And I mean, that stuff survived long after Christianization. And

00:28:32.660 it was really revived back in the Victorian age during like the Christmas carol times, you know,

00:28:40.640 Ebenezer Scrooge and all that stuff, that, that timeframe, there was a resurgence of

00:28:46.580 nativism in England. And you can find a lot of Victorian pictures of them dragging the Yule log

00:28:57.140 into the houses or into the great, you know, ballrooms. You can find pictures of them

00:29:04.940 carrying the boar's head at the, you know, for the feast. Now they condensed it all to

00:29:12.800 to, uh, the Christian Christmas, but, um, you know, you can see the telltale signs of where

00:29:18.700 it came from before. Also an interesting part of that too, was the Yule elf. Um, they called him

00:29:25.260 father Christmas, but he's riding a goat, which is reminiscent of the Yule Bach and the Tomta or 0.59

00:29:34.560 Yule Elf or, you know, the little troll gnome spirit that rides the goat in the Scandinavian

00:29:43.500 countries. So there is a clear, like, that moment there, I think, is the convergence point where we

00:29:51.100 start to see that the goat and the spirit that rides on top of it bearing gifts, that starts to

00:30:00.860 get much more broad and connective when um when we look at like the fact that father christmas

00:30:10.020 you know that the english we're doing it as well um

00:30:13.780 son yeah i'm very sorry can i can i interrupt you um no no yeah very rudely um nick has had

00:30:24.880 his hand for a raised for a while and then I still I wanna I still have like

00:30:29.560 half of my presentation left oh yeah yeah so I'm gonna go ahead and ask Nick

00:30:36.200 to go ahead with whatever he's got yeah thank you so I'll know I was doing some

00:30:44.320 looking up on some sources the head good with your thoughts on that the pros bit

00:30:52.480 after verse 31 says in the evening was the oath swearing the sacrificial boar was led forth men

00:30:59.120 laid their hands on it and swore oaths at the braggart full um also we mentioned uh the source

00:31:06.580 that's the source sorry yeah you also mentioned the source for uh frere as the lord of the elves

00:31:16.500 i can't find that specifically but it's all depending on translation um what i've found is

00:31:23.220 this uh paul beekman taylor argued no alaric hall argued the arf valda from beowulf uh line 1313 as

00:31:34.260 ruler of elves ruler yeah as a high team yeah that's just what i had i was looking up sources

00:31:42.100 for you no awesome thank you all right that was a a wild sort of tangent we just went down

00:31:53.700 from talking about yule to trolls to i mean like i said before svan any information you give is

00:32:01.100 good information and you touched on a couple of things that i had mentioned during the first part

00:32:07.180 of my presentation and clarified them wonderfully.

00:32:11.280 So I appreciate that a lot.

Asatru Folk Assembly - December 09, 2024

Trolls, Dwarves, Elves, Oh My!

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