00:00:00.000uh mishila give you mcnellen yeah you know we've got some topics i have a couple of comments about
00:00:09.200yeah um burning the sun wheel it is something that we do at yule um as we do at midsummer
00:00:16.000and the idea is that uh in burning in fact thorgrin and katie before they joined the afa even
00:00:23.520had their own kindred and they had one that would actually spin and it was um spin wheel spin uh
00:00:31.840spin world spin burn wheel burn and they would do that i don't know if you've heard that one
00:00:37.200but they would spin theirs um again to speed on the return of the sun and so we we always have
00:00:43.840that of course we're outdoors it's really neat because it's at night outdoors and we can do um
00:00:48.800burning some whale at yule um let's see songs we do songs we actually have song books and some
00:00:57.440have been adapted from others but um you know there are a lot of songs that have not been
00:01:03.600changed i think we three kings for instance i loved that as a kid we don't have any kind of a
00:01:08.480quote heathen version of it but there are several that we do um but there are as you say duck the
00:01:15.120hall's boar's head carol talk about a very ancient old english song and a lot of them
00:01:25.440autonom bomb you know whether it's done in english or in german definitely that's us so
00:01:30.880they're ones that just that any group could do and not feel like they're infringing or taking from
00:01:38.480or borrowing from christianity at all but even so there's some fun ones that can be done
00:01:44.160um so yes we do that we have song books and i think this year daniel odom is making up some
00:01:50.080new song books i'll be interested in seeing what they're like be happy to share with you
00:01:54.720and then i have a question because i don't think you were on the go there call the other night but
00:02:02.000there was talk about troll wives and thinking about all the trolls that are in yule stories
00:02:08.080these days and how prominent the elves and the trolls are in Scandinavian literature this time
00:02:14.460of year for Yule. And for instance, I like the Jambret. Who's that knocking? Who's that knocking
00:02:22.120on Christmas Eve? Is that right? I think that's the one where the trolls get into the cabin and
00:02:26.280try to break in and the little boy and girl are up there trying to keep the trolls out
00:02:30.020and they finally get chased out by a polar bear that they think is a cat. Anyway, it's a cute
00:02:35.420story but it does have trolls and the trolls are mischievous right and that's what they're supposed
00:02:40.700to be um daniel was saying to me can we come up with things for the kids that are kind of thematic
00:02:46.620we can give them lessons through our lore but also they could do crafts or some other activity
00:02:52.460and certainly a story just wondering how you feel about trolls because we really haven't
00:02:56.540addressed that and they are so prevalent in modern uh culture with children nowadays
00:03:05.420that's for you katie i know i don't know that i have an answer to that right now because i've
00:03:15.060never really thought about it i know i've heard about troll lives before but i've like i said
00:03:19.860i've never really thought about it so i can't answer that in this exact moment but i could
00:03:24.880definitely come back at you with an answer a little bit later after i have a chance to think
00:03:29.920about it i'm not i'm not always the best at coming up with these answers at the top
00:03:33.480off the top of my head like I like I need to think yeah I get that I'm kind of the same way1.00
00:03:40.800um the idea that the troll wives are there to to cause problems between in relationships between1.00
00:03:47.840those who are in love or to even steal children away there's a jealousy aspect to the troll wives0.88
00:03:54.060and yet we kind of make them cutesy for the kids and I'm just wondering is there1.00
00:03:58.200you know a uh an issue with bringing more trolls into um our yule celebrations if
00:04:07.400indeed they're seen as being too mischievous but maybe ron's got some ideas about this
00:04:12.640i don't know i i do know personally that we we treat uh trolls as being
00:04:20.440akin to yotans we don't uh like when we're talking to owen and alice we don't treat
00:04:27.280trolls as being positive things we treat them as being negative things they are generally chaotic
00:04:32.660so we tend to try to focus them more on like gnomes and land whites when we want to talk about things
00:04:39.160like that um like the zoo uh has a they call a boo zoo the boo at the zoo every year and we go to
00:04:48.260the zoo at night in costumes and there's always like a troll guarding the one bridge they have
00:04:52.720over this creek and we even when it's not halloween time we still call that the troll bridge
00:04:58.520every time we go over it and we're like oh you better go faster the troll will come get you you
00:05:02.600know because there's so many stories like the three billy goats gruff for example where the
00:05:10.300trolls are are bad so i mean i just i i keep it light because my kids are only four and six but
00:05:16.960generally trolls are bad guys and who eat people and chew on their bones and suck out the marrow0.80
00:05:23.440things like that you know right yes yes definitely in our lore that is how they come across
00:05:29.940um all the cute ones that you can buy and and make you do toys and all but anyway i get where
00:05:37.600you're coming from i think that needs to be our approach and just explain to them no they're they
00:05:41.960are agents of chaos and we don't we don't want them around they do not help us when it comes to
00:05:49.020like the trolls like the treasure trolls that they used to have when i was a kid that i think
00:05:53.480they've started to sort of bring back or trolls the movie where they're all singing and happy and
00:05:57.720stuff the kids have never really asked me if they're the same and i've never treated them
00:06:05.520like they were the same i always you know but it's never come up but if it were ever to come
00:06:11.040up like well you know those are pretend they're just you know somebody came up with the idea to
00:06:17.960have silly trolls once but they're really more like gnomes or something like that like right
00:06:22.780kind of deflect because yeah trolls are not positive things they deserve spots in our lore0.78
00:06:27.860though because we can learn from them because we can learn from all the stories that have
00:06:34.620negative things in them. But yeah, Ron, you have your hand up.
00:06:54.340Did you still want to say something, Ron?
00:06:58.060Oh, yeah, I should probably unmute myself. But to your point, to give you McNallan's point is that
00:07:03.740Trolls, um, we can't forget changelings. Changelings in our lore, especially Scandinavian lore, were human children that were stolen by trolls, but they replaced that human child with a troll child, the changeling, and those were, um, those were, um, well, I, all the fancy words are escaping me right now,
00:07:31.940But those were a baby that would, instead of suckle on her mother's teeth, they would shoo and bite.
00:07:41.140As they grew, they wouldn't have empathy.
00:07:43.220They would be cruel to the cat, to the dog, and the family.
00:11:36.040Pre-Christianity, trolls were not to be trifled with. They were terrifying beings.0.96
00:11:42.840Post-Christianity, they were still terrifying, but the church used them as a caveat to kind of,
00:11:50.940you know, explain its existence. Kind of like how possession movies are now.
00:11:57.520If people are demon-possessed and the priest always comes in and saves the day.
00:12:02.160And then, eventually, as secularism became the primary driving sense of the Nords, the trolls became commercialized as cartoony, tiny, happy day little creatures that could be mischievous or what have you.
00:12:30.100Um, I think the biggest thing is, is that creature that they're referring to is more like, and in reality, trolls are kind of this way as well. They're technically land whites or they're land veteer or they are, um, Alvar.
00:12:53.020And that's where I made, made the jump. Um, because the, the, the title Alvar, um, I know
00:13:02.120it confuses people nowadays, but it's, it's just a title, just like a yacht and is a title. Um,
00:13:11.440the, um, so like the little creatures that are mischievous or whatever, they're more akin to1.00
00:13:18.100land whites. But Alvar is kind of a broad term. The only thing, it gets even more broad if you
00:13:26.820don't attach a predicate to it. So perfect example of this is the name for a dwarf. I've forgotten
00:13:36.740which story, but he's referred to as Gandalf. This is where Tolkien got the name for the wizard in
00:13:44.600his book. Um, Alf basically means something that is perfect with whatever's before it.
00:13:53.940So a Gandalf is a person or a being who is synthesized with magic because a Gondor is a
00:14:03.600wand or magic. Um, Leos Alf is a being that's completely synthesized with light. A Svart Alf
00:14:12.460is one that is completely synthesized with the stone, the smoke, or the energies and pressures
00:14:20.440of the earth. A dak alvar is a being that is synthesized with the dark, and I think that
00:14:30.560darkness is poetically death or mortality, traveling hell's road, if you will.
00:14:39.880so the yule elf is a being that is completely synthesized with yule um so it's kind of that
00:14:53.740dividing line i i would say if you're talking about trolls for yule but you're not talking
00:15:01.340about the Yule Alf than, you know, calling them land spirits, calling them land whites,
00:15:11.360because the, the, all the telltale signs are there. They live in stone. Um, you know,0.81
00:15:19.120if they get touched by daylight, so very much like the, the Svart Alvar in the story, um,
00:15:25.780with like Alvis. So they have all the traits of being land whites, but the, the troll of0.97
00:15:32.680our ancestors time, like pre Christianity was much more like a demon. Um, and was, you know,0.98
00:15:40.880just terrifying. And we get that a lot from Christianity's like usage of the troll in their0.95
00:15:49.920conversions. So I mean, to just answer your question, I would say, you know, referring to0.99
00:15:58.200the trolls as like, you know, quirky land spirits of the stone and the trees, and even saying to
00:16:10.580the kids, you know, they're not like, you know, the other trolls that are really bad and very
00:16:15.880dangerous. Um, because I, I do think that distinction is important. Trolls that are
00:16:23.880the real trolls are attracted to places with death and sorrow, um, and inhabit0.94
00:16:35.260lonely and desolate places. Um, and they are extremely, uh, mean to living beings. Um, and
00:16:49.740they, they kind of are confused with poltergeist. And a lot of times, you know, like a Svartalvar,
00:16:59.040which is connected to the physical, can come into a house and cause all kinds of problems,
00:17:04.300throw things around, do all kinds of mean and mischievous things. But a troll is malicious and0.94
00:17:11.060mean and evil. And, you know, they go to battlefields, they go to deserted cemeteries0.99
00:17:21.520and just places of true sorrow. I think the best case that I can think of in the modern times in
00:17:33.980which a troll has inhabited a place is the Black Mausoleum in Greykirken Graveyard in Edinburgh,
00:17:48.660Scotland. That's a really interesting story about that place. And if you're interested in kind of
00:17:56.160like what trolls are really like I would I would say you know go check that out and you'll get
00:18:04.120kind of more of a the real trolls but um yeah so that's that's kind of my answer to that is like
00:18:13.840you know they're land spirits that are yeah connected to things and they're not so malicious
00:19:39.440But how do you wrap all those together?
00:19:41.020Going from troll, all of a sudden jumping to Gandalf being Odin, but Ing Frey could hold that title, I imagine, and oaths on the yule boar and the wild hunt and all those. How do you wrap those things together?
00:20:28.960I do not believe that it was ever used as a, um, a name connected to Lord Othyn.
00:20:40.320And also, um, there might've been a, um, a king that bared the name.
00:20:49.240Um, but yeah, I don't, I, uh, to my knowledge is it's never allocated to Lord Othyn.
00:20:58.960As far as Yule goes, one of the big things about Lord Frey gaining dominion over Leo Salfheim at the cutting of his tooth is, I mean, I find that interesting.
00:21:28.600the culturing of the cutting of the tooth. Um, and it's never emphasized whether or not it's
00:21:33.700the first teeth, which a lot of people assume it is, but it might've also been the first tooth
00:21:38.980lost. And then when the, the new tooth comes in, that was held with, you know, significance
00:21:47.260by our ancestors, but we don't really know. Um, but I mean, he is called, uh, I believe he is
00:21:56.540called lord of the elves that i would have to find that um in one of his kennings um but the
00:22:09.420the the leo south you know are you know more connected to the natural um phenomena of growth
00:22:18.780and springtime the kind of seen as the the intermediary place between heaven and the world
00:22:25.740of men, the light beings that are stewards over, you know, vegetative growth and the
00:22:34.080of herds and, you know, the, the, the, um, kind of fertility of, of the, the, the herds
00:22:44.800and the cattle and sheep and chickens and so on.
00:22:47.760Um, so they do play a large amount and oftentimes I think they get, you know, they
00:22:55.720get labeled as land vetir. Um, just because, I mean, they're, these are just titles that kind of
00:23:03.240are not super, um, nailed down. Uh, the Boar. So the Boar comes from the, the Anglo-Saxons. Um,
00:23:16.320those, the lowland Germans that we know that they lived in the land south of the Danes.
00:23:24.280or the Danae, or what is what the Tacitus called them. But it's strange because the Danae are
00:23:32.960really old and there is no mention of the Anglos and the Saxons by Tacitus. So they may have formed
00:23:41.680out of older tribes and eventually became known as Anglo-Saxons. And when they moved
00:23:47.740over into the isles, they brought much of their traditions with them. And, you know, the, um,
00:23:55.440the boar was a huge part of their, of their culture. And so there seems to be
00:24:02.440a massive cult following to Lord Ovin and a massive cult following to the Lord and the lady.
00:24:10.020and, um, and then like, uh, Thunor was, you know, um, just by the evidence that we have
00:24:20.960is more or less, I'm not saying that this is absolutely true, but by evidence, you know,
00:24:25.160we have more poetic storytellings about the Yule father, Lord Odin, and, um, at least
00:24:33.280boar worship or boar veneration um then then we do have like thor's hammers in the anglo-saxon
00:24:42.580time frame but they brought that with them and one of the big things about that was during yule
00:24:50.200oh he does mention the angli yes he does you are correct i think it was the saxon or the
00:24:58.680the Saxons that I, um, I think he, he doesn't mention, um, and that they may have been from
00:25:07.780the Ingveons, which again connects to Lord Ing. Um, and so they brought a huge amount of, um,
00:25:20.160boar iconography. And I think, um, again, the wild hunt and the wild hunt is such a strange
00:25:28.300thing because I wonder how much the wild hunt was also affected from local Britannian lore.
00:25:43.040And this might have been an admixture between the Britannians and the Germanic Anglo-Saxons
00:25:49.300when they came over there. I'm quite positive that the Anglo-Saxons probably, you know,
00:25:56.040had a winter tidying, um, boar hunt because it's such a perfect time to do it. The, the, uh,0.98
00:26:04.760the forests thin out and the, the, the boars are, you know, rooting around for truffles and,
00:26:11.200and acorns. Um, it's just the perfect time to do it. Um, and I, I feel like some of the, the, uh,
00:26:48.020And, um, but has like supernatural powers and it's kind of like a combination of Lord
00:26:53.920Odin and whoever, perhaps the Britannic, um, Lord of the hunt is, um, so that time of year
00:27:04.660having the boar hunt and, and the wild hunt itself, um, is all super congruent.
00:27:13.400And I think, like, for instance, in the traditions that, you know, that I'm coming from, Winter Finding is the start of the wintertime.
00:27:27.400And from winter finding to the night of Lord Odin on Yule, he is out riding on the on the wild hunt and taking to the air.
00:27:41.020And, um, and then at the final day of Yule, the 12th night, um, here at my house, when we celebrate Yule, we always eat a pig's head, um, on the 31st.
00:27:58.120And, you know, we kind of make like oaths, um, uh, accomplishments that we're going to attain
00:28:07.180on the head. And that comes from that, that boar hunt. Um, and again, I can't like, um,
00:28:16.540quote where it absolutely comes from, but I could find it is that where they would make
00:28:23.620oaths on the head of the boar. And I mean, that stuff survived long after Christianization. And
00:28:32.660it was really revived back in the Victorian age during like the Christmas carol times, you know,
00:28:40.640Ebenezer Scrooge and all that stuff, that, that timeframe, there was a resurgence of
00:28:46.580nativism in England. And you can find a lot of Victorian pictures of them dragging the Yule log
00:28:57.140into the houses or into the great, you know, ballrooms. You can find pictures of them
00:29:04.940carrying the boar's head at the, you know, for the feast. Now they condensed it all to
00:29:12.800to, uh, the Christian Christmas, but, um, you know, you can see the telltale signs of where
00:29:18.700it came from before. Also an interesting part of that too, was the Yule elf. Um, they called him
00:29:25.260father Christmas, but he's riding a goat, which is reminiscent of the Yule Bach and the Tomta or0.59
00:29:34.560Yule Elf or, you know, the little troll gnome spirit that rides the goat in the Scandinavian
00:29:43.500countries. So there is a clear, like, that moment there, I think, is the convergence point where we
00:29:51.100start to see that the goat and the spirit that rides on top of it bearing gifts, that starts to
00:30:00.860get much more broad and connective when um when we look at like the fact that father christmas
00:30:10.020you know that the english we're doing it as well um
00:30:13.780son yeah i'm very sorry can i can i interrupt you um no no yeah very rudely um nick has had
00:30:24.880his hand for a raised for a while and then I still I wanna I still have like
00:30:29.560half of my presentation left oh yeah yeah so I'm gonna go ahead and ask Nick
00:30:36.200to go ahead with whatever he's got yeah thank you so I'll know I was doing some
00:30:44.320looking up on some sources the head good with your thoughts on that the pros bit
00:30:52.480after verse 31 says in the evening was the oath swearing the sacrificial boar was led forth men
00:30:59.120laid their hands on it and swore oaths at the braggart full um also we mentioned uh the source
00:31:06.580that's the source sorry yeah you also mentioned the source for uh frere as the lord of the elves
00:31:16.500i can't find that specifically but it's all depending on translation um what i've found is
00:31:23.220this uh paul beekman taylor argued no alaric hall argued the arf valda from beowulf uh line 1313 as
00:31:34.260ruler of elves ruler yeah as a high team yeah that's just what i had i was looking up sources
00:31:42.100for you no awesome thank you all right that was a a wild sort of tangent we just went down
00:31:53.700from talking about yule to trolls to i mean like i said before svan any information you give is
00:32:01.100good information and you touched on a couple of things that i had mentioned during the first part
00:32:07.180of my presentation and clarified them wonderfully.