Patrick K. ODonnell, the best combat historian of his generation, joins us on Christmas Day to talk about the most famous battle in American history, the Battle of Trenton, and his new book, "Washington's Immortals."
00:01:33.440The old Breitbart radio show and then here in the war room for the last couple of years.
00:01:36.900Patrick, one of the things I think people and the reason they love your writing and they love your books,
00:01:44.840you know, your books are, a lot of them have a tremendous amount of oral history to them.
00:01:51.320You go and you interview members of the greatest generation to do books on World War II.
00:01:56.180You went and interviewed people in the Korean War for your great book on the Chosin Reservoir.
00:02:04.760And you actually in person, you embedded as a writer and a journalist with a Marine rifle squad in Fallujah
00:02:18.060to do this kind of first person account of the harrowing Battle of Fallujah,
00:02:23.080which is one of the more bloody battles in American history that people really don't know that much about.
00:02:29.980But in the Revolutionary War, you also do tons of archival research for your two great books that you did.
00:02:36.200As I think back to back on the revolution, obviously you didn't couldn't interview anybody.
00:02:41.240So you went back and you did archival research, but it's got the same drama in it as if you had interviewed people.
00:02:53.820Talk about talk about just the research, the amount of research you do, particularly for your two books on the revolution,
00:02:58.540which were just incredible. Right. And we had you on the show and we do specials.
00:03:03.600And I got so much incredible, positive feedback from the war and posse, including so many people that wrote reviews on Amazon and just love the books.
00:03:11.760I really appreciate the war and posse. They're tremendous. Salt of the earth. Great Americans.
00:03:18.980I love coming on your show. It's always an honor.
00:03:22.900All the books that I've written, I've written 13 now, are all it's hand done.
00:03:29.680I do all of the research myself. It's painstaking, too.
00:03:34.940I. I spent years in the archives doing the research for these books.
00:03:41.580I walk the ground that the men that I write about fight where they fought for the Civil War book, for all the Revolutionary War books.
00:03:50.780I know every aspect of the ground that I write about because I've been there.
00:03:55.500And what's amazing about the battles that I write about is listeners can go to these places.
00:04:02.700Now, this hallowed ground and walk in the footsteps of these great patriots for the indispensables and Washington's immortals.
00:04:11.120I did use the great moral history archive that nobody really has ever tapped until my first book, Washington's immortals.
00:04:19.800And that was the pension application files that if you were lucky enough to survive the American Revolution, you could go down to the local courthouse and swear under oath what you saw and did.
00:04:31.800But these these great patriots, if they were lucky enough to survive the American Revolution, they went under oath in front of a local judge and swore what they saw and did during the American Revolution.
00:04:43.400Sometimes it's at a high level. Sometimes it's very granular. I was able to take that granular oral history and insert it into the books.
00:04:53.520And that's why. Hang on one second. This is I never got this part from you. All the years are done story.
00:04:58.300That's how you got because it reads like your other books and that you have almost first person accounts.
00:05:03.780There actually were first person accounts in the pension app.
00:05:09.080And you found these histories because they were transcribed by the local clerk in the local courthouse.
00:05:17.460And these men had to prove that they were there.
00:05:21.800So they provided a lot of extraneous detail, a lot of lush, granular detail about what they saw and did in many cases.
00:05:30.340Sometimes it's at a high level. Many times it's very granular and it's extraordinary stuff, Steve.
00:05:36.840It's it's dialogue in many cases. It's like an excellent example is one of the members of Fort Washington is in my book.
00:05:48.160And this is he's like he's arguably the luckiest man alive that survived the battle for Washington.
00:05:54.280It was surrounded by the British. There were three thousand troops there.
00:05:57.360These men were they ran them through a gauntlet, killed many of them.
00:06:02.820But he was able to survive by crossing the Hudson River with a robo.
00:06:10.460And he crossed the river. And on the other side, he landed right near General George Washington,
00:06:16.800who had a spyglass in his hand and was watching the entire battle unfold.
00:06:21.460And what's extraordinary about the account is he describes how Washington had tears in his eyes as he sees his men being run through literal a literal gauntlet,
00:06:35.200where there are Hessian and British troops that are beating, kicking, stabbing with bayonets,
00:06:42.040the Revolutionary War soldiers that that that are taken prisoner at Fort Washington.
00:06:46.300But that's just one of the accounts in the in the books that I have that are from this oral history,
00:06:52.580a great archive from that that streamed through Washington's Immortals and the Indispensables.
00:07:01.200I want to break your Washington's Immortals about a regiment that became immortal and made kind of the last stand or the stand of Thermopylae.
00:07:09.300The Indispensables are a group of almost kind of special forces, the guys from New England or from Massachusetts that end up kind of a special operator,
00:07:19.480special forces and are the are the men that actually transport the unit, his unit across the Trenton,
00:07:27.260across the Delaware River on that freezing Christmas of 1776.
00:07:32.160To put it in perspective, it just set the stage because people everybody knows the Declaration of Independence, July 4th.
00:07:42.620We celebrate it every year in this huge celebration.
00:07:45.240There are movies made about it in plays.
00:07:47.420But in your book, when you get to Trenton Christmas, people think that Trenton or that happened years afterwards.
00:07:54.380It was six months later, five months later, the revolution almost came to a halt because of the British expeditionary force that landed, I think, in August.
00:08:05.560And from August to to actually Christmas Day or Christmas Eve, it is one continuous strategic retreat.
00:08:19.140Indeed, Steve, the there are a number of great inflection points in the year 1776 and beginning in the summer of 1776,
00:08:30.320where the British take practically their entire Navy, two thirds of their Navy and two thirds of their army to crush the rebellion with all out force.
00:08:40.800They also hire tens of thousands of mercenaries or hires, hired guns, if you will, allies for politically correct term from Germany or which German states and bring them into their army.
00:08:56.100And they're there to crush the colonists in the rebellion.
00:09:00.020They land in Long Island in First and Staten Island and then at the Battle of Brooklyn or the Battle of Long Island in August 1776.
00:09:10.940This is a true inflection point of the Revolutionary War.
00:09:14.400It's one of the great battles that's not recognized, but it's up there with Gettysburg in the sense that here in this inflection point, all could have easily been lost.
00:09:26.060Washington had 10,000 of his troops in Brooklyn to defend the indefensible, which is New York City.
00:09:32.480It was surrounded by water so the Royal Navy could land anywhere in New York at will.
00:09:38.880So therefore, it was practically indefensible.
00:09:41.200But Congress demanded that he at least try to defend it.
00:09:44.700He defends Brooklyn and the battle goes disastrously for the for the colonists.
00:09:52.520And it's here that there is an epic stand on the level of the Spartans.
00:10:00.120It's an American thermopoly where the bayonets of the revolution, the Maryland 400 or parts of the first Maryland regiment under the second in command,
00:10:13.080Mordecai Gist, makes a series of desperate charges against Cornwallis.
00:10:17.800Cornwallis becomes their adversary, Steve, for the entire war.
00:10:23.180And they make a series of charges against a position near a stone house where Cornwallis has basically outflanked most of the American army.
00:10:33.680But they open up a passageway that allows a large portion, thousands of Americans, to escape into their entrenchment.
00:10:43.520And this is a series of bayonet charges under Gist.
00:10:50.180Most of the men are blown to atoms by canister from the British guns.
00:10:54.940But they continue to make these these charges that allow the army to escape.
00:11:00.280And what I found so amazing is that this sacrifice, one of the great sacrifices in American history to save Washington's army, the men of the Maryland 400 are most of those men that made that charge are still unknown where they are buried.
00:11:17.420They suspect that some of those men are buried in and around where they fought near that stone house, which has now been fully developed in Brooklyn.
00:11:28.420And others were captured and put on prisoner of war ships in Brooklyn Harbor.
00:12:20.060And that falls upon the men in the Indispensables, the Marblehead Mariners, as you mentioned, kind of an early sea like unit in the sense that they were the most skilled mariners in the colonies.
00:12:32.600They were experts at fishing and also they traded around the world.
00:12:39.740They were the best men of the sea at the time because they fished what's known as the Grand Banks, which is about a thousand miles outside of Boston to just to fish cod primarily.
00:12:52.300But these treacherous waters built men of iron and they were able to to basically navigate any kind of waterway.
00:13:01.480And they needed it all that night because the night of of August 29th, 30th was a disaster.
00:13:10.240The river was running high. They had a nor'easter before that.
00:13:13.280And it was an impassable situation where they tried these small boats, which it was it was an American Dunkirk, if you will.
00:13:21.960They had 10,000 men in the army and only given about two or three hours notice.
00:13:27.020They were told that they were going to initially fight and then they were they were told that they were going to have to evacuate.
00:13:32.480Patrick, hang on. Hang on right there.
00:13:37.080I want to leave it with their extracting the great sacrifice that gave them time, all heading towards these strategic retreats, all heading towards Pennsylvania, crossing the Delaware River in retreat and coming back on Christmas Day.
00:13:52.420The combat history of Christmas all next in the world.
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00:19:20.860they bought an hour more precious in our history than any other through that epic charge near that stone house.
00:19:30.980And then it's the marble headers that also stand with Washington.
00:19:34.640And there's an amazing scene where Washington himself is literally catatonic on his horse as the British in this massive force lands at Kipps Bay and with fixed bayonets is only 400 yards away from the commander in chief.
00:19:51.300Somebody literally has to take the bridle of his horse and get him off the field.
00:19:56.220He's willing to sacrifice himself to continue to lead his men in his army.
00:20:02.580But fortunately, the Marylanders, the marble headers and others buy the army just enough time to escape through what's now Central Park in a place called McGowan's Pass.
00:20:13.520And they make their way to fortifications at Harlem Heights.
00:20:19.020And there's a brief sort of window of of hope.
00:20:25.140The Battle of Harlem, which is fought near near near near in Harlem.
00:20:32.360And they were able to defeat some British light infantry, which is kind of a remarkable thing.
00:20:37.100But other than that, there's not a single real bright spot in 1776.
00:20:41.800It's pretty much one defeat after another, as you mentioned, Steve.
00:20:45.960And it's the men that are making their way to their first.
00:20:52.920They decide to not abandon Fort Washington, which is a mistake.
00:20:56.420They lose for 3,000 continental troops in that fort alone.
00:21:01.220And Battle of White Plains takes place.
00:21:05.000And it's a retreat then across the Hudson River and then into Pennsylvania.
00:21:09.900And it's the British that are pursuing pretty much at every step.
00:21:43.760They want to get to Pennsylvania because they have the safety potentially of the river, even though if that freezes over, that's a that's a potential problem as well.
00:22:06.280Supply for the Continental Army was the farms of Pennsylvania, which were friendly to the Continentals.
00:22:13.740So they had to get to the to Pennsylvania to supply the army and reform.
00:22:19.920But Washington had a major problem on his hands.
00:22:23.420The enlistments for the army were expiring.
00:22:26.520They first expire in in December and then many expire on January 1st.
00:22:32.120So Washington, whose army in in New York City at its height in the summer was around 20,000 troops, is now down to a small kernel of itself and roughly, you know, four to five thousand troops.
00:22:48.820And it's dissipating fast because the enlistments are about to expire.
00:22:53.460The mood in the country is also disastrous.
00:22:56.900One British victory after another has many Americans jumping ship to the British side.
00:23:06.320And this is true in New Jersey in particular, where the British had conquered large swaths of New Jersey and people that even signed the Declaration of Independence.
00:23:16.400Now we're signing oaths of allegiance to the British.
00:23:20.960And it was an absolutely horrible time economically.
00:23:25.080We had hyperinflation where money was, you know, it cost a fortune just to feed yourself.
00:23:32.160And it was a very, very it was the darkest days, as many have brought out.
00:23:39.000And it's here that that Washington designs his great counterattack or counteroffensive.
00:24:01.060One of the New Jersey representatives had already signed an oath of had signed the Declaration of Independence, signed the oath of allegiance to the British because New Jersey had essentially fallen within a couple of weeks.
00:24:14.060But he also was having a testy relationship with Congress, with the people that empowered him.
00:24:20.000I mean, there was a lot of talk going on, even from some other generals, people have been, you know, that had had been victorious in other places that Washington.
00:24:31.000There was a lot of talk about was Washington up for this?
00:24:33.920Did he really understand how to manage?
00:24:37.320He had fought what in the French and Indian War and been a hero there.
00:24:40.740But there was a lot of questions about General Washington.
00:24:45.420I mean, there's a lot of backstabbing going on at that time, and he was bleeding out support, even in Philadelphia, among the among the the the leaders of the continental government.
00:25:09.180There were several that that had experience and they were fully prepared to step in.
00:25:16.260And they were, in fact, you know, having backchannel talks with Congress to to replace Washington.
00:25:23.740And one of his great rivals is captured by Bannister Tarleton and other men from the British Legion.
00:25:32.360And he's brought off the he's basically taken away as a potential rival, which is a great in many ways.
00:25:40.280It's a great sort of miracle that that Washington doesn't have that that that situation is able to focus on the entire the revolution in its entirety.
00:25:49.680He writes Lund Washington and one of his relatives that if we don't act soon, the game is pretty much up.
00:25:57.640He realizes that the Revolutionary War is about to end if they're not able to to be successful.
00:26:05.040And the British, for their part, to occupy New Jersey, they have to put up a series of fortified posts or posts.
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00:30:47.120Patrick, so Washington, the knives are out for Washington.
00:30:50.700There's been one strategic retreat ever since this massive expeditionary force.
00:30:56.380People have to understand, the Constitution wasn't even dry when they, they'd already formed it when they set sail to land here in August.
00:31:04.260The largest expeditionary force the British had ever put together.
00:31:07.240They had two-thirds of the British Army.
00:31:08.740You had a bunch of mercenaries that they had, quote-unquote, alliances with or signed up.
00:31:13.980And they had the Royal Navy, which was the best pound-for-pound Navy in the world.
00:31:18.660And they were serious about keeping this colony because they understood they had a, they had, you know, this and India combined gave them global power that, you know, even the Romans couldn't imagine.
00:31:30.900So they were not prepared to let this go lightly.
00:31:34.440This was as serious as you could possibly get.
00:31:37.940Tell us about Rawls and tell us about the Hessians that General Washington was going to do this master counterstroke against.
00:31:46.240Rawls, Rawls was a, really an incredible commander.
00:31:49.640He was a, he was a, he was the best in many ways of the, of the Hessian soldiers, of the Hessian officers.
00:31:58.620Born into the regiment that his father had, you know, he was fighting at age five as a drummer boy and, and just continue to rise through the ranks.
00:32:09.760The man had spent his entire life in military life, countless battles in Europe, comes to the United States.
00:32:19.540And Johan Rawls is one of the first heroes of the American Revolution, at least on the British side.
00:32:24.900He's the hero of White Plains, where they lead a break, a breakthrough at that battle.
00:32:32.040And he's the man in charge in front, leading his troops.
00:33:40.640The men of the, of the Rawls regiment are literally, they sleep with their muskets on their side and in their uniforms and their cartridge boxes.
00:33:50.940They're constantly on alert and they know that an attack is imminent.
00:33:57.100The British intelligence at the time warned Rawl that an attack would come very soon from Washington's army.
00:34:05.580And a series of things take place that on the night of Christmas that are, that are quite interesting.
00:34:13.560Um, the first, the, um, the, the navigation of the river itself, it's, it's a, it's a disaster.
00:34:23.080Washington asked John Glover, if his men can get the army across the river.
00:34:28.880And he says, don't worry, my boys can handle it.
00:34:32.460Um, that's, uh, that was the true statement, but the army was divided into multiple parts that night.
00:34:40.600There were three, uh, prongs to that, um, offensive.
00:34:45.760The, um, only men that got across that night were the marble headers that brought the army across.
00:34:52.280Every other aspect of the army was, was failed to cross the Delver river because it was filled with ice.
00:35:26.720And then there were other elements that were trying to cross.
00:35:29.400Those other elements, as I mentioned, failed to cross because the river was, was too treacherous that night.
00:35:35.320Um, he gets across and then they're about 10 miles away from Trenton itself.
00:35:41.880And they have to make a, a march in the night through Trenton.
00:35:48.040Meanwhile, um, Raul is warned that there's potential for a, an attack.
00:35:54.840And one of the, the, the great things that, one of the great warnings is that he is, um, he's warned that this attack is imminent.
00:36:06.120He decides to, to play checkers with a local loyalist that night.
00:36:10.580And as Washington's army is marching in the snow towards Trenton, they encounter another force, which is completely out of place.
00:36:23.860These, um, there were about 120 men or so from the Virginia, um, militia that had made a raid on their own without any authorization.
00:36:36.300And many think that it was a, um, a raid to basically avenge losses that they had sustained earlier.
00:36:43.260And Washington is astounded that there's another, an American force on that other side.
00:36:49.040What's really incredible, and most historians believe that that early force that was, that, that landed and was repulsed by the Hessians leads Raul to believe that that was the attack.
00:37:04.020And he goes to bed that night, believing that the attack already took place.
00:37:10.320No one would attack in the middle of a Nor'easter.
00:37:14.600But in fact, Washington's army of, you know, about 2,600 men are barreling down the river road, which that basically parallels the Delaware river on its way to Trenton.
00:37:25.300And even that night, there's a, um, an enslaved individual that goes to Raul with a message that says, Washington's entire army is there.
00:37:36.700Raul takes the message from that person, puts it in his pocket and never reads it.
00:37:42.580And that morning at dawn, the Americans strike and they attack Johan Raul's, um, garrison.
00:37:50.980And, um, they put up an amazing fight initially, the, the, the Hessians, they have several cannon that are in place.
00:37:58.980Um, they, they, they battle over those cannons, goes back and forth.
00:38:04.900And, um, what's going on though, is the men that crossed that river, the indispensables, the book that I wrote about the marble headers that brought the army across.
00:38:13.860It's under Jen, um, at this time, Colonel or general John Glover, who leads his men down that river road.
00:38:23.740And without orders, he captures the most important real estate in North America, which is a bridge across Aston Peak Creek.
00:38:32.220And that is Johan Raul's really only escape route to the other garrisons that are out there.
00:38:38.760And, um, with it, they are able to envelop the, um, Hessian garrison.
00:38:45.920It's a double envelopment, which is a rare thing in the American Revolutionary War.
00:38:53.460And then when one side gets the advantage, they retreat and the, the, the battle goes that way.
00:38:58.980In this case, it's a double envelopment.
00:39:00.920And Johan Raul's entire garrison or most of it is captured and Johan Raul is mortally wounded, uh, during this encounter.
00:39:11.080And, uh, they capture the stacks of, of, of, of all the arms that the Hessians had mini cannon.
00:39:17.740And it's a great victory, but this is just one victory in the period of a course of 10 days that will change the American Revolution and world history forever.
00:39:29.140Or after this, there's something called, hang on, before we get to, hang on, before we get to that, I want to go back.
00:39:37.140Um, cause he's questioned later to leave and it took much, much longer to get ready to cross than he thought, but to leave and then still be 10 miles away.
00:39:47.300And to know that you're in the middle of a snowstorm.
00:39:50.060I mean, you've made the odds so long itself.
00:39:52.820Obviously they caught him by surprise and were able to win because of the fortitude of the men and, and obviously Washington's leadership.
00:40:01.180But before they actually engage in combat, it, it, it looks like, wow, the logistics on this thing could have been better.
00:40:10.080But I mean, when you, when you think of a 10 mile March, after you've already had all the 40, a, a, a, a force crossing of a river in the middle of the night, freezing with ice and how difficult it was, get ready to cross.
00:40:24.740Then 10 mile March in a, essentially a little mini blizzard or north of the Easter is not the way to show up and be ready to fight.
00:41:46.660Henry Knox, this rotund bookseller from Boston, who's in charge of the artillery, General Knox, brings over about double the amount of firepower, maybe even triple, that the Hessians have.
00:42:02.220But the key is also the capture of the Assambeak Creek Bridge, which is important because there's another battle that takes place a week later.
00:46:31.700Steve, the stones of the Ass and Peek Creek Bridge are still there, portions of those stones.
00:46:40.860There's a Hessian barracks that's nearby, and this is downtown Trent.
00:46:46.080And I hope after four years they are finally getting together the interpretive signs that I've asked for.
00:46:52.600But this is one of the great battles in American history.
00:46:55.860It's a true inflection point of the war, much like Brooklyn, where all could be lost.
00:47:01.480If they could hold the bridge, they hold the army in the Revolutionary War together.
00:47:07.720And it's here at that bridge that it's a bloodbath.
00:47:11.340They send the, Cornwall sends his best troops, the light infantry and the grenadiers from the Hessians to try to assault the bridge multiple times.
00:47:23.780The bridge literally runs with blood as canister is fired upon these men as they try to seize the bridge.
00:47:31.940Washington himself is so close to the battle that his horse literally touches one of the planks on the handrails on the bridge.
00:47:53.100And this is something that's the case throughout the American Revolution.
00:47:58.800As he's leading from the front and holding his men together, Washington survives, the army survives because there is no more light.
00:48:11.040And it's in the morning that Cornwallis is rumored to have said, we'll bag the old fox in the morning as they prepare to cross the Assam Peak and destroy the American army.
00:48:26.680He has men with pickaxes and shovels feigning that they are digging in for the night, preparing for that assault.
00:48:35.360When, in fact, the fires are lit and the army is moving towards Princeton, where there's another small garrison, which is in the process of moving towards Trenton.
00:48:46.400And they have what's known as a meeting engagement where they clash on the road towards basically on the road towards Princeton.
00:48:55.340And it's here that the Continental Army is disintegrating again.
00:48:59.840But Washington himself, which an 18th century general can do at that time, puts himself in the fray and literally leads his men to victory.
00:49:10.680And they have a crushing victory at Princeton.
00:49:14.140The plan is initially to go to New Brunswick, where there is a massive war chest where the payroll of the British Army, which has about 50,000 pounds, which is an enormous fortune for the time, along with munitions and arms.
00:49:28.180But Washington realizes that the army is exhausted, and they move towards a fortified ground in New Jersey, and they sit out the winner there.
00:49:39.980And it's the 10 days that changed the course of the Revolutionary War.
00:49:44.900It's the indispensables in the barrel.
00:49:46.740Did these 10 days, did the 10 days give Washington also a level of confidence that he finally had, now that he had a couple of incredible victories against overwhelming odds?
00:49:58.640It's not only confidence from Washington, but it's confidence across the world.
00:50:03.720Frederick the Great, others that recognize, and the French, Spanish, recognize that, hey, these Continentals, these Americans are here to fight.
00:50:13.920And then there are other battles that follow, Saratoga being the crucial one.