On this episode of Memorial Day, Steve and Captain Abandon are joined by author Patrick ODonnell to discuss his new book, "The Hero: An American Family's Journey Through World War I and the Great War: The Forgotten Heroes of America's First World War."
00:01:04.360Before we start, I want to continue on with the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier and the unknowns and the ceremony that took place to start this off.
00:01:12.020But for the audience, their personal histories, there's so many people in this audience that don't realize that the uncles or even sometimes the aunts or that had part of the war effort.
00:01:23.120If you really started to do your own research about your own family, you would be shocked.
00:01:28.500You'll be shocked and surprised, pleasantly surprised to find the contributions they made, not just to the war effort, but oftentimes those that actually died in defense of their country.
00:01:42.740I'm not going to plug it per se, but I'm a fan of Ancestry.com in the sense that it's an incredible tool that allows you to burrow into your own genealogy.
00:01:56.320And believe it or not, I'm a historian, but I've been reluctant to burrow into my own past for some personal reasons.
00:02:05.340But I found out that I've got relatives that were at Lexington and Concord and, you know, came to America in 1619.
00:02:14.640So it's an incredible window into the past.
00:02:28.760That are constantly in, you know, that are on TV and everything else.
00:02:34.340But in reality, there's so many true heroes that are just in your own family, in many cases, or in other people's families that did some incredible, extraordinary things.
00:02:45.060If you look back, even go back to the films of World War II, and you think of the roles Gregory Peck played, like in 12 O'Clock High, or Jimmy Stewart played, or even a famous and incredible film, if you haven't seen it.
00:03:00.440And they were expendable, which I think is one of John Ford's greatest films.
00:03:05.120It's John Wayne is really, you've never seen, not a swaggering, flying leathernecks, but really a, he and Robert Montgomery, about the PT boats of the early days of, right after the attack of Pearl Harbor in the Philippines.
00:03:20.320Of those, all those units that knew they were going to just have to get crushed, right?
00:03:27.260They would not be there for a victory.
00:03:28.700They were going to be there at the beginning wave of being overwhelmed.
00:03:31.960But you see that, and then later, the movie Rambo.
00:03:35.740The power of your books, and I think the power of your books, is that these heroes are everyday Americans.
00:03:43.360And they're certainly not these comic book characters today.
00:03:45.440And this is one of the things I'm all, you know, I see these Viking movies, and all these movies, and people running around.
00:03:50.640And that's just not, that's not what, that's not what it was about.
00:03:55.340If you go and read Patrick Cardone's or all the other ones, you'll see that these are everyday Americans, ordinary people stepping up and doing extraordinary stuff, and clearly heroes with incredible amount of courage.
00:04:08.420And particularly, you're thrown into the cauldron of World War I.
00:04:12.860Remember, France did the first Tomb of the Unknown.
00:04:17.200I think France lost, was it, 4 million?
00:04:29.080Not the, Napoleonic Wars are bad enough, but World War I, it was a slaughter pen for the French.
00:04:33.460It was a slaughter pen for the British.
00:04:35.480This is why, you know, the first day of the Psalm.
00:04:37.460This is why the British were always so hesitant to start a second front in the West and have D-Day.
00:04:43.560Church and all those guys talked about it all the time.
00:04:45.320They couldn't, they were, they were, this is why Dunker, they were one big battle slaughter like that.
00:04:49.680It went to being checked out of the war.
00:04:51.660The British population just wouldn't take it.
00:04:53.320The trauma of these countries from the first, from the Victorian era to what the slaughter pens of the Western Front were, were traumatic in America.
00:05:03.700This is why World War I, when people came home, was not finally remembered.
00:05:08.220And remember, we talked about this in the show last week from Geneva with, with Noor Bin Laden and Jack Posobiec, where she was in front of the League of Nations.
00:05:17.640It was the American people basically stood up to Roosevelt.
00:05:20.600These guys said, we don't want any more involvement with this Europe.
00:05:23.260We don't want to, we don't want to be a part of it.
00:05:29.380And in that, this whole movement to have the Tomb of the Unknown and this whole fight about bringing our boys back, but the cost of it and what was going to happen and then the unknown itself.
00:05:40.440What happened when it, when, when, when the remains got here and when the Capitol, pick a story up then and walk us through the ceremony, the very first ceremony and how, how the spot was chosen at Arlington Narrow Cemetery, which is the finest view of Washington is where the Tomb of the Unknown is today.
00:06:04.180Absolutely. The, the remains of the unknown are escorted by the body bearers, the men that are in the unknowns, the book that I wrote, who are the most decorated heroes of World War I.
00:06:16.000And it's first brought to the Capitol Rotunda where it lies in state.
00:06:21.540And this ceremony is a who's who of America and the world that shows up.
00:06:29.660All the world leaders come, um, all the people, uh, in, in the, in American society, um, are there and it's, it's, um, it's a healing moment to, to heal the wounds of even the American West.
00:06:48.420And, um, um, the person that is one of the final participants in the ceremony is an American Indian chief from the Plains chief plenty clues.
00:07:01.000Um, but you have the NAACP there, you have kind of all walks of American society.
00:07:08.160Initially, initially they plan to invite every medal of honor recipient from the civil war forward.
00:07:15.480Many came on their own, um, dime, but they were going to pay for them to show up, um, and be part of the, um, the ceremony.
00:07:28.800The, um, after the, it's in the rotunda for a day on the 11th, which corresponds with the end of World War I.
00:07:38.160The, um, a caisson, which was used to, um, bring the remains of president Lincoln was used to, to bring the casket forward to, to, to, it goes across the bridge into Arlington from Washington DC.
00:07:58.660And there's an incredible, um, but solemn parade, um, which has these, these decorated heroes that are actually the body bearers that are carrying the casket on the side of the caisson.
00:08:11.100And you have behind it medals recipients, such as Alvin York and others, um, as well as general Pershing, who, instead of wearing all of his medals, only wears one simple medal, which is the victory medal from World War I.
00:08:27.300Um, and, uh, he marches with the other, he doesn't, he couldn't ride a horse, but he doesn't, he marches.
00:08:33.980You have the chief justice, Supreme Court, and the president also behind the caisson, and they, they go to Arlington.
00:08:42.000From there, they, um, they have a very solemn ceremony.
00:08:48.960Hang on, hang on, just a little, hang on one second.
00:08:52.500I just want people to understand this.
00:08:53.940From the Capitol, uh, when they bring the remains down, and after laying, laying in state, and put it on the caisson, the caisson goes down past the Lincoln Memorial, and then over the, the bridge, what is called Memorial Bridge, probably the most beautiful bridge in Washoe, one of the most beautiful bridges in America.
00:09:15.320Are you saying the chief justice, Pershing, and the president actually followed the caisson on foot?
00:09:35.500That's, that's a, uh, particularly in semi-formal attire, that is, that is something.
00:09:40.740So they actually marched in back or walked in back of the, in honor of the, uh, the, uh, the unknown soldier to, in, in, in back of the caisson.
00:09:50.220That's one of the, I mean, that's the, sort of the humbleness of, of the event as well, instead of washing.
00:09:55.380Some of these men could have rode, but they, they, they walk.
00:10:01.220And President Harding delivers a, um, the first, it's, it's effectively a radio address to the nation.
00:10:10.660And they use a telephone system to provide a radio address.
00:10:15.420It's the first, first of its kind, a national broadcast.
00:10:18.840And President Harding's words, um, echo across the country of, of, of what he, what he relays there and, and the significance of the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier.
00:10:32.220And as, as, as the ceremony goes on, they're, um, they place the highest decorations on the casket.
00:10:40.320The Medal of Honor is placed there, Distinguished Service Cross and others.
00:10:45.080And then foreign countries around the world place their highest medals on the casket itself.
00:10:52.040And as the ceremony moves forward, one of the final individuals is Chief Plenty Clues that places his, um, his war hammer on top of the casket.
00:11:05.240And as well as bonnet and says some special words.
00:11:09.220And Plenty Clues is, is, it's a very interesting, um, demonstration, symbolic to, to have him there.
00:11:20.500And it's important because we had been fighting with Native Americans for decades, centuries.
00:11:27.320And this is a way of healing and incorporating, um, Native Americans into, which they fought very bravely.
00:11:36.200One of our, one of the body bearers in, in the, um, in the story is a full, full Native American that, um, was a combat engineer that captured scores of Germans at the Battle of San Mahal.
00:11:49.700And it's, uh, this is a, this is a sense of healing and there's, there's many other, um, elements to the Tomb of the Unknown, which provide a level of healing across the country and bring people together.
00:12:04.340When did they come up with the concept, um, that, with the old guard, the old guard, and I want you to spend a few minutes on that, the old guard, but the 24 hour day, no matter if it's a hurricane or if it's a blizzard, 24 hours a day of, of a, of a armed, um, guard marching back and forth quietly in a, in a highly stylized, uh, ceremony that goes on constantly.
00:12:30.500What happens is the, um, the, um, the tomb is not guarded initially, Steve.
00:12:37.740And for many years, the, the general public can come as they want to the tomb, but it was, it was desecrated.
00:12:47.100People would have picnics on the tomb.
00:12:51.840And then, um, several years after its inception, the old guard comes in, um, as a 24 seven.
00:13:00.500You know, every day of the year guard of the tomb.
00:13:03.880And it's, for those that haven't been to it, it's probably one of the most extraordinary ceremonies in America is the, uh, is the walk and the guarding of the tomb where these, uh, sentinels are there, um, every day.
00:13:20.500One of the great honors that I had was, I was made an honorary member and given a number for the tomb guard because for, for, for, for the book of the unknowns, which I was, uh, deeply honored by.
00:13:35.320And they also incorporated the, some of the history that I brought out in the book, which was unknown at the time I uncovered.
00:13:49.640If you ever get to Washington, DC, it is one of the most, um, um, solemn, uh, solemn, um, occasions and, and to go to the, you can go every day of the week, I think, and, and see that the, uh, the guard and the changing of the guard and all that at the tomb of the unknown.
00:17:57.180Patrick, remind me, wasn't the Old Guard, it's attached back, it's actually tied back, I guess, theoretically back to Washington's guard back at Valley Forge.
00:18:10.160Well, the unit itself goes back to the Revolutionary War.
00:18:15.960It's not a direct tie to Washington's guard, per se.
00:18:21.540In the Indispensables, I bring out the story of the lifeguard or the commander-in-chief's guard.
00:18:29.240But they do go back to the Revolutionary War, and it's an extraordinary unit that has an incredible tradition.
00:18:38.140For folks at home that are not associated with the Army, a lot of people don't remember or don't know, the Army's actually older than the country.
00:18:49.820The Continental Army is 1775, correct?
00:18:51.920Because the Army's actually, the Continental Army, which became the U.S. Army, is actually 1775.
00:19:14.960And my beloved Navy, it was a collection.
00:19:17.720And we might also add, if we get into it, is Washington's Navy was also, in some ways, the Army's Navy, which predates and is the precursor to the U.S. Navy.
00:19:34.160And the Navy, our founding Navy, was a collection of freebooters and quasi-pirates, as the Royal Navy was by Francis Drake and all the buccaneers and freebooters that formed that.
00:19:47.800Captain Bannon, the Old Guard, anybody in your class, have anybody that's been in the unit commanders or been with the Old Guard?
00:19:57.760None of my classmates have been in the Old Guard commanding.
00:20:01.820However, I do have a friend that was a commander in the Old Guard.
00:20:05.560Like the Ranger Regiment, you have to be selected to the Old Guard.
00:20:08.980It's not just a unit you can get orders to.
00:20:11.220It's a very prestigious unit to be a part of, so you have to be selected for it.
00:20:16.780And the regiment's mission is to conduct memorial affairs to honor fallen comrades, ceremonies, and act on behalf of the United States Army.
00:20:24.600And they also do dignified transfers at Dover Airfield.
00:20:46.020Tell me about, I want to go back, General Pershing, I don't even know if you know this, but on your mom's side, or your grandmother's side of the family, her father, the hers side.
00:20:59.680My grandfather, her father, his brother actually served with Black Jack Pershing on the Mexican border in the border dispute that the expeditionary force that went in after Pancho Villa, after Pancho Villa came and shot up.
00:21:18.940And they sent an expeditionary force, is when Pershing really became known to the American people, they sent an expeditionary force actually into Mexico to sort that out.
00:21:27.440But your great, I guess your great, great uncle, on this case, your great uncle, actually, was with Pershing, who was such a renowned figure.
00:21:36.900I want to, to Pershing, I want to get back to these body bearers.
00:21:40.440Because, how did Pershing, how were they selected?
00:21:43.620Because this was like, Pershing had a certain way he looked at the world about fighting men, right?
00:21:51.900He had a certain way he ran that army.
00:21:55.960Correct me if I'm wrong, I think it was MacArthur in, as a colonel and maybe a brigadier general, I didn't, I think MacArthur was awarded three, four, five silver stars from the time they got to World One all the way.
00:22:09.040He took that, he took them all the way down to Metz, where the war basically ended before they breached, they crossed the river there.
00:22:17.560But he had a certain way of running, this is why he was so renowned.
00:22:22.560He had a certain way of leading that army.
00:22:27.920Had a certain way that he wanted people to conduct themselves in combat.
00:23:31.400And the first story and the opening story in this book begins on the high seas in the Bay of Biscay with James Delaney, who is on a merchant ship.
00:23:43.600And he is what is known as an armed guard.
00:23:46.100And their role is to protect the ship from U-boats.
00:23:50.020The U-boat brings America into the war.
00:23:55.600And they are sinking Allied ships left and right.
00:23:58.320And it's General, it's President Wilson, in March 1917, before we enter the war, that we decide to arm commercial ships with Navy crews and Navy guns to defend themselves.
00:24:13.720And it's Delaney that's on one of these boats.
00:24:16.580And if you've ever seen the movie Doss Boat, this is a mirror of that, but it's an American version.
00:24:22.120And how this occurs is an incredible story that I unearthed in the unknowns.
00:24:29.440Delaney is on the ship, and everything is moving along nicely.
00:38:19.320You get to learn the history of World War I.
00:38:21.320Give me a couple of minutes on the Battle of Brooklyn.
00:38:23.380Remember, people talk about the Declaration, obviously the birth of the foundation of the country.
00:38:27.360But what people also, a lot of people don't realize is that 90 days after the signing of the Declaration, the American army, as tiny as it is, is in a full scale with the biggest expeditionary force ever brought by the British Empire.
00:38:45.300And, I mean, they're bringing the hammer.
00:38:46.720They want to kill this thing in the cradle.
00:38:49.320In the Battle of Brooklyn, people don't realize in Brooklyn, the heart of Brooklyn was the first, I think, big battle after Boston.
00:39:03.120And it's an inflection point, Steve, because it's here that all could have been lost.
00:39:08.360And the battle unfolds on August 27th.
00:39:14.240Interestingly enough, it begins in a watermelon patch where the scouts for both armies, the scouts of the British army are probing our lines, which in today, it's a place called Greenwood Cemetery.
00:39:30.340And for those that live in the New York area or Brooklyn area, there is tons of American history in plain sight.
00:39:52.300And this is the opening of the battle, which involves a book called Washington's Immortals.
00:40:00.600It involves the Marylanders and the Delaware line.
00:40:04.240And they are rushed from their headquarters, which is in a stone house several miles back from Greenwood Cemetery.
00:40:12.640They march in the dead of night around 4 or 5 a.m. to a position around Greenwood Cemetery.
00:40:21.060And it's here that the British conduct what's known as a demonstration.
00:40:26.560They want to tie down these Marylanders and other continental units.
00:40:32.640But what's happening is a massive flanking movement around Greenwood Cemetery is occurring where Cornwallis and other troops in the British army are about to encircle the troops that are in Greenwood Cemetery.
00:40:48.600And they're on a salient, basically, along with General Sullivan and others.
00:40:58.760And they realize to their absolute horror that they are being surrounded by the British.
00:41:04.040And these Marylanders and Delaware troops and others have to literally fight their way back to the location of this stone house.
00:41:12.140And it's there that they realize, to their horror, that thousands of Americans are about to be cut off and destroyed.
00:41:22.000And it's in many ways, the entire American army is about to be destroyed.
00:41:28.200And here, the Marylanders launch a suicidal, in some ways, you know, they're very small in number, about 300, 400 troops total against a fixed position with Cornwallis near and around the stone house.
00:41:46.460And they march and fight with bayonets to attack that house.
00:41:51.980But the reason why they're doing it is to buy time for the rest of the army to escape and also to tie down the wings of the army and to create a gap in the line, which they successfully do.
00:42:05.620And the main character in my book, Mordecai, I guess, for Washington's Immortals, launches attack after attack.
00:42:16.200Most of the men of the 400, of the Maryland 400, or Washington's Immortals, have never been accounted for.
00:42:23.960They are buried, very likely, many of them are buried near and around the house where they fell.
00:42:30.740They fell, or they were prisoners of war by the British, and they died on prison ships, and their bodies were cast overboard like bags of garbage.
00:42:48.400These heroes, the American Thermopylae, as you call it, just average Americans, right, the very beginning of our country, within 90 days of the sign of the Declaration,
00:42:57.980and you hear everything about the Declaration, you don't, this is.
00:43:00.800Their blood signs the Declaration of Independence, Steve.
00:43:10.320An unmarked grave somewhere in Brooklyn, near where the stone house is.
00:43:14.600We kind of know approximately where it is.
00:43:16.680Or, folks forget, were there 18,000 prisoners on the, on the, on the, on the.
00:43:21.880The numbers are very, are very nebulous on this, but some say over 10,000 American prisoners, maybe upwards to 18, were captured by the British.
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00:50:33.120Since the beginning, the last 30 years, many consider me to be, you know, the expert on American elite units beginning from the revolution, you know, forward, especially World War II.
00:50:49.700And I, I think one of the themes in my book is how a single individual or a small group of individuals can shape or bend history.
00:51:01.940And that's certainly the case with, with many of the books, because they are touching upon, you know, great inflection points in history where a single person can change that, can change history, can change things.
00:51:19.060And that's something that I think certainly holds true today.