Former CIA Director John Brennan joins Stephen K. Bannon in the War Room to discuss the latest on the Trump administration and the Russia investigation, including a potential plea deal for President Trump, who could be charged with conspiracy to commit espionage, lying to Congress, and obstructing justice.
00:00:26.860I wish in my soul, I wish that any of these people had a conscience.
00:00:32.780Ask yourself, what is my task and what is my purpose?
00:00:36.480If that answer is to save my country, this country will be saved.
00:00:42.880War Room. Here's your host, Stephen K. Bannon.
00:00:46.100You have to wonder if the Justice Department is considering whether there is some political solution to this criminal problem.
00:01:00.100Whether part of the issue here is not just that Trump has committed crimes, but that Trump has committed crimes and plans on being back in the White House.
00:01:07.840Do they consider, as part of a potential plea offer, something that would prescribe him, proscribe him from running for office again?
00:01:17.260I would imagine if anything like that happened, that it would have to come from the defense side of the negotiation, that the Trump team would say, oh, by the way, and with this, we will also drop out of the race for president.
00:01:33.780Otherwise, it would put the Justice Department in this position that Donald Trump claims they're in.
00:01:39.980He claims they're trying to stop him, simply trying to stop him from becoming president again.
00:01:45.320And that's the only reason they're doing this.
00:01:47.940So my guess, given those dynamics and the change, I think, in the way the Justice Department sees this in those 50 years since Spiro Egdu, it just seems unlikely that they would reach into the political zone of the solution.
00:02:07.780Our politics does have to find a solution to this, but it might have to find that solution separate and apart from the criminal process.
00:02:15.180Yeah, I mean, Chris Krebs sort of walked into a split rail between both Russia and then saying the election was otherwise secure.
00:02:26.660But all of this and this meeting is particularly important in terms of the reckoning that the country needs to have with Trump's election denial charges.
00:02:36.840Because the 30 percent of the country not believing in the credibility of our elections is not a sustainable number.
00:02:45.180And Donald Trump bringing Donald Trump to account to actually prove the underlying case that he claimed was true would be a real service to the country.
00:02:56.060Longer the terrorist who's going to fly an airplane into some building.
00:03:01.060It is within our country, people, extremists, white supremacists and others who would resort to violence to alter an election or take other kinds of violent action.
00:03:13.860And so this trial is going to be a real test of our democracy.
00:03:19.580And in a world where democracy is increasingly under threat, it will be a real opportunity for the United States of America to show that no one is above the law.
00:03:31.700He's entitled to his rights, just like any criminal defendant.
00:03:35.080He's presumed innocent until proven guilty.
00:03:37.980But the criminal justice system has to be allowed to work without interference.
00:04:40.960And it's all, you know, everything appears to be a cover up.
00:04:43.700Like I said, I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but when you look at the information, the intelligence that it had, military had, it's all watered down.
00:05:08.780My officers were fighting for 80 minutes before the protesters ever broke the person with that.
00:05:14.260Wait, can I say, so you described this as a failure to get the intelligence to the people who needed it, but it sounds like, worse than it, it sounds like they were hiding the intelligence.
00:05:24.720And that's what I'm getting at, is could there possibly be people that actually did something happen and kind of wanted something to happen?
00:05:31.340It doesn't, it's not a far stretch to begin to.
00:05:33.200Well, I don't know what the other explanation is.
00:05:34.900You know, it's, it's sad when you start putting everything together and thinking about the way this played out, it gets very concerning.
00:07:39.460Tell Aaron Burnett, we need a reckoning.
00:07:42.120We need – because 30 percent of the American people – and if Denver can pull up, the CNN has an incredible poll out today.
00:07:52.820They've also got a big poll on economics and how Biden's doing, which is terrible, where they say 69 percent of Republicans do not believe Joe Biden is legitimately elected.
00:08:08.020And also, we put this up, I think, in the middle of the night, put it up a couple hours ago and get her, and it had the wrong headline on it.
00:08:28.120You have – remember, he was the guy last week, or the Live Golf.
00:08:31.620He had the – he was all up about the golf, you know, the PGA and the other golf associations partnering with the Saudis, which is bad enough.
00:08:41.940But he just equated the deplorables – I mean, he equated the deplorables and MAGA to the 9-11 terrorists.
00:08:49.500And he said, well, they're extremists, right, but they're domestic terrorists and white nationalists, but they're just the same as the guys that flew it into the building.
00:08:55.480This is the mentality that you're thinking about, that we're opposing.
00:09:00.580Today in this arraignment, I've asked Raheem to join us for the top and to get us going here, and a couple reasons.
00:09:11.360Number one, Raheem has been able to get access to, quite frankly, explosive.
00:09:16.660Because part of the things I'm going to go into is how the Murdochs and Fox News are absolutely bound and determined to destroy Donald Trump and to destroy this populist movement.
00:09:30.720And they are working nonstop, 24-7, to make sure that happens.
00:09:40.400I actually thought I saw a part of this on Fox, but now that I saw that – and for the audio, Raheem, I want you to go through how you got this and why the audio is not perfect.
00:10:08.100Tucker Carlson himself gave an interview to comedian turned podcaster Russell Brand a couple of weeks ago where he sort of started to intimate what was said in this interview that he did at Fox with the former Capitol Hill police chief that you see there, Stephen Sund.
00:10:27.040And it's funny because Stephen Sund was one of the first people that we honed in on, I think it was January the 10th, 2021, when all of that was still going on, when people were still trying to figure out what the heck happened that day.
00:10:40.300And Sund kind of turned around at the time and said, well, hey, look, how was I supposed to know what was going on here?
00:10:45.860Because nobody wanted to keep me in the loop the entire time.
00:10:49.260And over the last couple of years, he has, I guess, put this book together that he was talking to Tucker about.
00:10:54.220But it's the interview there that you saw there.
00:10:56.520And that was, by the way, just the first part of the interview that we'll be releasing over the next couple of days where he starts talking about the cover up.
00:11:05.500Now, you know, for those for those out there who kind of, you know, will listen to that and hear.
00:11:09.800Hold on, hold on, hold on, hang on, hang on, hang on, hold on, Raheem, Raheem, hang on, slow down, slow down.
00:11:15.880But I just want to make sure I understand this and therefore our audience or our audience may be ahead of me on this.
00:11:23.300This was an interview Tucker Carlson did.
00:11:25.780And it looks like it's a lot of the stuff he would do on that Fox Nation and then play parts of it up on a show.
00:11:31.200He did this when he was at Fox and an employee of Fox, correct?
00:11:34.620And he said on Russell Brand that this was never allowed to air before they terminated him, right?
00:11:39.020I just want to make sure I got the fact right now.
00:11:41.580How did how did how did, you know, Nash, far be it from me.
00:13:08.380I'm not putting the whole interview up and saying, oh, hey, Fox, you know, screw you and your intellectual property.
00:13:12.680I'm saying, you know, this is information that the public needs to hear and we will release parts of it that we believe are inherently newsworthy.
00:13:26.220Are you telling me from what we've heard and what we know that there are factions inside of Fox News that don't agree with the Murdochs, what the Murdochs are trying to do to the country and what the Murdochs are trying to do to the populist movement?
00:13:40.960And therefore, people inside of Fox leaked this or got this into the hands of the ever hardworking national pulse team.
00:13:51.160Well, Steve, you might say that, you know, I couldn't possibly comment.
00:13:57.880I tell you what, I want to go to I want to go to commercial break because this is so explosive.
00:14:01.680And I want to make sure that I want you to walk through particularly where people when we come back, what was said, because this frames this is why.
00:14:13.880We're going to get an opportunity, ladies and gentlemen, to adjudicate the 2020 election and all the fraud and all the stealing and all the illegitimacy of the Biden regime.
00:14:23.760And also the second part of it, the Fed's direction.
00:14:30.380We're going to make the deep state have to stand and deliver in a federal courthouse.
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00:15:51.480Text the word Bannon, B-A-N-N-O-N, to 989898.
00:15:55.380This is a monumental shift happening among nations that control one third of the world's GDP.
00:16:21.640Okay, I may try to get, we're going to get Benny Johnson up here in a minute.
00:16:27.080We're going to get Mike Davis up here.
00:16:28.960Mike Davis got up on Twitter about the immediate movement we need to put to the appropriations bill to cut off all money to DOJ
00:16:37.580and make Biden shut down the government on October 1st, if need be, before we give one penny, one penny to continue this persecution of President Trump and others in this fiasco coming to DOJ.
00:18:35.900They have a national debate between DeSantis.
00:18:37.920The Murdochs have given, for the first time in history, to governors a national platform to pretend as president to have a debate in November,
00:18:47.760a year from, a year from, a year from the actual election itself.
00:19:46.280You know, Stephen Sund is a 30-year-long law enforcement officer who has served as the Capitol Hill police chief since, I think, 2019.
00:19:57.360He was in the run-up to January 6th completely, in his own words, cut out of the intelligence gathering and the planning of the policing on Capitol Hill that day.
00:20:10.360He specifically, in this interview, points the finger at Nancy Pelosi.
00:20:14.840He specifically points the finger at Milley.
00:20:17.440He specifically says that him and his deputies were just not given the information that they needed to secure the Capitol building that day.
00:20:25.220Now, listen, that's one part of it and one thing.
00:20:27.400And you can think about incompetence and you can think about all sorts of other, you know, surprise factors that might have gone into that.
00:20:34.360But then he says something very interesting, and you heard it there in the clip we played in the last segment.
00:20:38.700And I encourage everybody to go to thenationalpulse.com forward slash war room.
00:20:44.620Check out this story for yourself and watch as we release more and more and more over the course of the day.
00:20:51.400If you scroll down there on the site, I see it's up on the screen right now for the video audience.
00:20:55.740If people scroll down there on the site, you can see how many stories we put up a day and how many unique stories we put up a day.
00:21:02.420And I really want the audience to recognize something here, that we are people funded.
00:21:06.740OK, there's no adverts on the website.
00:22:24.200And I want you to either read it or just walk us through the entire thing that was happening on the screen and tell us what is the what is the meaning of this?
00:22:30.640Because there cannot be a better preamble to set up the day than when Benny Johnson wrote and put up last night.
00:22:42.720So I've spent not an enormous amount of time in Washington, D.C., but 15 years of my professional life.
00:22:48.780I've worked on Capitol Hill as a reporter.
00:22:50.480I've asked questions at the White House press briefing.
00:22:52.220I've seen the inside of many embassies and been invited to the parties and sort of understood how the apparatchiks work inside of Washington.
00:22:59.000And I think that people are really missing a major theme as to what is truly happening in our country today.
00:23:06.260And that theme is the ghost in the machine.
00:23:08.620The ghost in the machine is what's actually happening in the indictment today.
00:23:14.180And with the overlooking of Joe Biden's crimes.
00:23:17.340Because it doesn't really matter what happens with Donald Trump.
00:23:30.080The ghost in the machine is the apparatchiks for our government who have spent the better part of 70 years building an apparatus in order to choose who is allowed to run for president.
00:23:42.680In order to choose who is allowed to become president.
00:23:46.280In order to choose who is allowed to remain president.
00:24:15.160And these people wouldn't shed a single tear if Joe Biden dropped dead tomorrow.
00:24:19.760These people are utilizing the organs of government right now in a hard coup against you, the American people, because of one specific thing that happened on a date in November in 2016.
00:24:35.420On a date in November in 2016, you defied them.
00:24:39.480They told you to vote for Hillary Clinton.
00:24:41.280They rigged the election against Donald Trump.
00:24:44.280They rigged the election in favor of their preferred deep state candidate.
00:24:48.940And in spite of every poll showing that Donald Trump had zero percent chance of winning, you said F you to these individuals, to the machine, the ghosts inside of the machine.
00:24:59.660And that broke them because these individuals operate off of the assumption of power and the projection of power.
00:25:07.720And what that told the entire world is that these people are not actually powerful, that these individuals are actually fraudulent.
00:25:13.760And they couldn't even control what was happening in their own country.
00:27:53.860Raheem Ghassam, National Pulse, the publisher, founder of National Pulse.
00:27:56.980And, quite frankly, absolutely an extraordinary breaking story today from Tucker Carlson's footage of this explosive interview with the former head of Capitol Hill Police.
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00:29:58.420Longer the terrorist who's going to fly an airplane into some building.
00:30:03.740It is within our country, people, extremists, white supremacists, and others who would resort to violence to alter an election or take other kinds of violent action.
00:30:16.280And so this trial is going to be a real test of our democracy.
00:30:22.020And in a world where democracy is increasingly under threat, it will be a real opportunity for the United States of America to show that no one is above the law.
00:30:34.400He's entitled to his rights just like any criminal defendant.
00:30:37.480He's presumed innocent until proven guilty.
00:30:40.420But the criminal justice system has to be allowed to work without interference.
00:30:44.220We need to prevent interference and this kind of violent extremism.
00:30:48.600We're going to return to Rahim Ghassam, the founder, publisher, and editor over at the National Pulse, in a second on this explosive footage he has that could not highlight better this construct of the ghost in the machine.
00:31:03.740Exactly who makes decisions and who really runs things with this explosive interview with the chief of the Capitol Hill Police.
00:31:12.940Before I let you go, Benny, and by the way, extraordinary, we'll be looking for more on this.
00:31:17.220But Blumenthal right there equated you and others in War Room included in our audience with the 9-11 terrorists that flew planes into the towers and what killed 2,900 American citizens.
00:31:36.380So, first off, that was an act of war, and I don't know what Dick Blumenthal, draft dodger, donning Dick, would know about acts of war.
00:31:47.460This man is a proven coward and has lied about his supposed service in Vietnam, so maybe you should sit this one out, Dick.
00:31:55.160But also, I believe that this is a tried-and-true tactic of the ghosts inside of the machine.
00:32:00.280Just accuse everyone who you do not like as terrorists.
00:32:09.600J. Edgar Hoover's FBI did this regularly.
00:32:13.220They said that American citizens were terrorists, enemies of the state.
00:32:17.880Now, that was always a moving target, whether it was a civil rights or a feminist movement or whether it was the unionized organizers back in the 1920s and 30s that J. Edgar Hoover cut his teeth on.
00:32:29.940But J. Edgar Hoover always saw the American people as the enemy, and this group of individuals see us as the enemy.
00:32:37.480And do they – are they ashamed about that legacy?
00:32:40.680No, they put J. Edgar Hoover's name on the side of their building in downtown Washington, D.C. in letters that are three feet tall, Steve.
00:33:47.920How does that tie back into Benny's – this concept of the ghost in the machine and Blumenthal's comments about we are – we're extremists, even worse than domestic terrorists.
00:33:57.240We're extremists like the terrorists that flew the planes into the Twin Towers.
00:34:03.540It's a very wide-ranging question, and it's one that brings up actually a lot of emotions, because as somebody who left Islam in the aftermath of 9-11, I won't take lectures from Blumenthal, who just a few years ago was standing inside a mosque in Connecticut, you know, professing to be the lobbyist for all Muslims in the United States.
00:34:31.000And peddling this ridiculous idea that there is some kind of rampant Islamophobia present in the United States at the moment.
00:34:39.700And this is what they do, these people.
00:34:41.380You know, they set groups of people against each other, divide and conquer, and it goes very much to the heart of what Benny was talking about.
00:34:48.920And it manifests itself quite clearly in the Stephen Sund interview with Tucker Carlson as well, with what happened in January 6th also.
00:34:56.500Because Sund says, in the first sort of 10 minutes of the interview, where they're laying the groundwork and the framework for the conversation writ large, he says, look, everything I do involves political leadership.
00:35:09.280You know, the Capitol Hill police is not an independent police force that just happens to patrol, you know, around one of the most important buildings in America, if not the world.
00:35:19.440It is a specifically created force that caters to the politicians and for the politicians and answers to the Speaker of the House.
00:35:28.840And whether that's through the Sergeant at Arms or directly, as he says, speaking three times to Nancy Pelosi on the run-up to January the 6th.
00:35:37.660By the way, you'll recall that Nancy Pelosi actually said she had no recollection of speaking to Stephen Sund at all on the run-up.
00:35:45.780And Sund goes out there in the Tucker Carlson interview and says, what the heck are you talking about?
00:35:49.000I've talked to you three times in 24 hours, you know, on the run-up to that.
00:35:52.840But this, again, goes right back to the heart of the ghost in the machine, right?
00:35:59.800You know, he's the chief on his business card.
00:36:01.560He's the chief on a piece of paper on a letterhead.
00:36:03.860He may have it in his email signature.
00:36:07.140But really, the decisions that were taken on that day, as he says in the interview with Tucker, were somehow taken above the head of the chief of police on Capitol Hill.
00:36:17.200Not somebody who was an acting or new chief of police.
00:36:20.040This is somebody who had been in situ for a while, who had served as the D.C. MPD police officer for 20 years.
00:36:27.740This isn't somebody who you can sort of turn around and say, well, look, we had to go with somebody more experienced, given the nature of the day.
00:36:33.340No, this was as experienced as you get as a police officer.
00:36:48.220Then they told him, when the fights were breaking out on Capitol Hill, between protesters and the Capitol Hill cops, for 71 minutes, he did not get any support up there.
00:37:01.800And he says, in his words, that there is a cover up, quote, cover up surrounding all of those details.
00:37:09.240He says in the clip that we have up on the National Pulse right now that there may even be, you know, it is not outrageous or outlandish or absurd to consider that the events that transpired that day are exactly the events that they wanted to have transpire that day.
00:37:41.340I want to also go back to some of your previous reporting because you've been on this from the beginning.
00:37:45.280I remember how the New York Times would then agree with your reporting but bury it down in the 20th paragraph.
00:37:51.760Just hit rewind for a second on cover up and what they wanted.
00:37:57.380Just give me your last minute again slowly so I can comprehend it.
00:38:02.080Yeah, look, and just to go back to that point, I think a lot of people, you know, wouldn't have even known the National Pulse back a few years ago.
00:38:09.480We were the first news outlet in the world to put together the timeline of events on January the 6th.
00:38:14.640And they, hey, you know, those people at the Capitol building couldn't have been there after Trump's speech.
00:38:32.660It had to have been Marty McFly and Back to the Future, right?
00:38:36.600Then, you know, we were one of the first outlets to bust apart AOC's big lie about when she said that, you know, she thought the cops were going to rape her in the Capitol Hill toilets.
00:38:46.480And it turns out that she was in one of the office buildings adjacent.
00:38:51.980You know, we were the first news outlet about discussing January the 6th to bust open the lie surrounding Officer Brian Sicknick and the idea that he was bludgeoned to death on the steps of the Capitol.
00:39:03.040No, we were the first ones to say, actually, the coroner says he had a stroke.
00:39:06.680Suddenly, everybody had to change their reporting on that.
00:39:08.800So, yeah, we have been on this for a long time, and we will remain on this for a long time.
00:39:13.160Stephen Sun, the Capitol Hill police chief, says in his own words that they would not give him the intelligence he needed to properly staff the Capitol for the events of that day.
00:39:23.860And now we know, you know, you see the bike racks and all of that stuff.
00:39:27.340Well, if you had the intel, why were you just using bike racks?
00:39:29.760If you had the intel, why didn't you have National Guard deployed outside there?
00:39:34.780And he alleges in his words that as a result of all of those things, as a result of all of those conversations, of all the strategy that went in and behind this,
00:39:41.920all of the conversations that he was not privy to, for whatever reason, there is and has and always will be a level of cover-up, his words, cover-up, regarding what happened on January 6th that day.
00:39:59.840Yeah, I want to get to that in a second.
00:40:02.480I want to hold that for the listeners because I want them to absorb this and the power of it.
00:40:06.220And here's what I don't understand, as a matter of national policy or as a matter of, you know, news organizations are supposed to put forward news.
00:40:18.040Do you agree, whatever side of the political spectrum you're on, Tucker Carlson's interview with the head of the Capitol Hill Police at the time is news, would be news, correct?
00:40:32.000We wouldn't publish this if it wasn't the news.
00:40:33.600This is the news, especially when you get the indictment, especially when you see yesterday that Donald Trump's lawyers have even tried to subpoena for this information.
00:41:08.380It goes right to the heart of what we can expect over the next year and what happens in November of next year.
00:41:14.280And I also want to – on a very specific and kind of tactical level, Jack Smith opens up his talking indictment, but his press conference the other day, he absolutely goes to the violence and everything.
00:41:41.220So therefore, understanding the importance of this, Brother Kassam, why would the Murdochs go out of their way to suppress this vital information that the nation has to hear and see?
00:42:45.200You know, like CNN had the coronavirus ticker up in every single death, in every single number.
00:42:51.180Well, Fox News has that, but for the attempted, you know, fratricide of the MAGA movement, that is their editorial position inside that building on Fifth Avenue, and they are pursuing it with gusto.
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00:45:30.860Can we just go back to the role of, you said nine out of the 18 agencies in the so-called intelligence community are military.
00:45:39.280Pentagon supervise their military intel.
00:45:42.820Would they have been gathering, it sounds like they were gathering information about January 6th before it happened.
00:45:49.600Well, again, for Milley and Miller to be that concerned about January 6th in advance, they had to be getting the intelligence from somewhere.
00:46:00.200I mean, talk about locking down Washington, that's a huge undertaking.
00:46:14.040For them to think that they were getting the intelligence.
00:46:16.840And I'm asking this because there was a very weird moment in the January 6th committee interviews.
00:46:24.640And they interviewed a man who was caught on camera by a lot of people encouraging, lawbreaking, encouraging people to run into the Capitol to break the law.
00:46:37.660The implication was to commit violence.
00:46:39.920He has never been arrested or charged with anything.
00:47:46.420Yeah, I mean, it certainly sounds like it.
00:47:50.160There's no other individual, I think, that fits the bill of the discussion that was just had between Tucker Carlson and Steve Sund than Ray Epps.
00:47:58.400Ray Epps, who was seen the night before January the 6th, you know, urging people to go into the Capitol the next day.
00:48:05.540Ray Epps, who was seen at the Ellipse, guiding people towards the Capitol.
00:48:08.860And then Ray Epps, he was seen at the Capitol, attempting to guide people in.
00:48:13.020It's the same Ray Epps, who has not been charged, who was thanked, as Stephen Sund says there, by the January 6th committee for his candor in his testimony to them.
00:48:23.580And it's the same Ray Epps, who texts his friends and family members, saying that he, in his words, quote, orchestrated the entire thing on January 6th.
00:48:34.420I think this is one of the most critical reasons why Fox News and Rupert Murdoch, especially, and all of the establishment surrounding that operation did not want this interview ever aired.
00:48:47.900And, you know, I'm delighted to have broken it this morning with you guys on The Wall Room.
00:48:51.520Haven't, hasn't Epps, I think, given an interview or said that he's under pressure now or somebody's leaked that the government's actually looking at potential charges against him?
00:49:05.800And hasn't he either threatened or actually begun the process of suing, I think it's Tucker and Fox, about calling out on this?
00:49:17.340Now, Epps has, I think, given a bunch of interviews saying, not only am I innocent, I've been persecuted, and now the government's actually looking at charges.
00:49:29.760And, of course, any reasonable person would believe that Ray Epps has his right to his say and has his right to his day in court over this stuff.
00:49:38.760But we've now, you know, progressed how many years since that incident where nothing was done about any of this?
00:49:45.820In fact, as Steve Sun says there again, I will reiterate, he was thanked by the January 6th Committee for his candor in his testimony.
00:49:54.820They never asked him any follow-up questions to the plethora of videos out there that show him, you know, in his words, again, orchestrating the events of January the 6th.
00:50:04.540And now his lawyer has come out with a statement because I think Joe Rogan has actually been talking about this recently.
00:50:10.220And the Ray Epps' lawyer statement says,
00:50:51.000It's silly on the face of it because he says without Fox and Tucker, Ray would be unknown and unassailed.
00:50:56.480Well, Fox and Tucker didn't identify Ray Epps.
00:50:59.740And Ray Epps is the one who decided to go there on January the 6th with his tourniquets, with his, you know, his kit that he took with him that day, with the disappearance in the middle of the day where he says, oh, I caught a ride back to my hotel with some stranger.
00:51:59.720I missed Chris Miller, the active secretary of defense.
00:52:02.100I missed Chris Miller's and I missed Sun's testimony.
00:52:05.180And I just want to make sure that I'm sure it's there somewhere and I want to discuss what they said in front of the J6.
00:52:10.200OK, we haven't had enough time to profile Jimmy Reed, Big Boss Man, who will play the entire version of this in the second hour.
00:52:18.640But we'll leave it right now with the Jimmy Reed's original of Big Boss Man.
00:52:23.020You probably heard covers of this of other bands, but this is the original.
00:52:25.680Big Boss Man, can't you hear me when I'm gone?
00:52:41.340Big Boss Man, can't you hear me when I'm gone?
00:52:49.440Big Boss Man, can't you hear me when I'm gone?
00:53:19.420Big Boss Man, can't you hear me when I'm gone?
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