The DOJ is suing Graystar, the largest landlord in the United States, for colluding with their competitors in order to drive up rents on Americans. We talk to Gail Slater, Assistant Attorney General for Antitrust at the Department of Justice, and Joe Allen, Director of Litigation at the DOJ, about the case. We also hear from NYU Professor Gary Marcus, the NYU Professor and nemesis of Sam Altman of OpenAI, to break down the flop that was GPT-5. And we discuss the supposed militarization of Washington, D.C.
00:00:56.000It is Tuesday, August 12th in the year of our Lord, 2025.
00:01:00.000I am Joe Allen sitting in for Stephen K. Bannon,
00:01:03.000who against his deepest spirit and genetic constitution is not working tonight.
00:01:10.000Well, I bet he's probably working somewhere.
00:01:13.000I don't know anyone who works harder than Steve Bannon, except for me.
00:01:19.000Tonight, we're going to talk about antitrust suits against the largest tenant in the largest landlord in the United States.
00:01:33.000Gray Star, who has been colluding with their competitors in order to drive up rents on Americans.
00:01:41.000Americans work damn hard for their pay, and it is atrocious what these corporations are doing to siphon all that money out of their paychecks and into their vast coffers.
00:01:55.000We're also going to be talking to Gary Marcus, the NYU professor and nemesis of Sam Altman of OpenAI, here to break down the flop that was GPT-5 from a very expert and somewhat biting perspective.
00:02:12.000Following, we will discuss the supposed militarization of Washington, D.C.
00:02:22.000I need to find out where all of these soldiers are and where they're kicking in doors because it's pretty calm and peaceful.
00:02:30.000Other than the few straggling homeless, they need to get out to the east end a little bit further.
00:02:35.000And we will close out with a little talk about AI and prayer, specifically the psychotics who are praying to artificial intelligence as if it were Jesus.
00:02:51.000So I'd like to bring in Gail Slater, Assistant Attorney General for Antitrust at the U.S. Department of Justice.
00:02:59.000Gail, thank you very much for being with us this evening.
00:04:16.000And so what the DOJ has done over time is investigated and litigated against not just Graystar, but a bunch of other large landlords, as well as a company named RealPage.
00:04:29.000And what we discovered during the investigation was that RealPage and other landlords were working together to pull competitively sensitive data.
00:04:38.000And for them, that's rental prices in local markets throughout the country.
00:04:42.000And they were running that data through RealPage's software using algorithms.
00:04:48.000And prices on rental properties were going up.
00:04:53.000And we think the prices were certainly higher than they would have been had this conduct not been engaged in.
00:04:58.000So fast forward to last week, and we entered into a settlement with Graystar.
00:05:04.000And Graystar has agreed not to use RealPage's software anymore.
00:05:08.000They've agreed not to engage in what we call digital collusion to set the prices at levels higher than they would be for all Americans who are renting from them, particularly from young millennials, for all the reasons that we care about that for.
00:05:25.000And we're very, very happy about the settlement.
00:05:27.000It's a very effective way of settling the litigation without incurring costs for taxpayers and costly litigation that we might eventually lose on appeal five years from now and so on.
00:05:51.000We hear a lot about BlackRock and other major corporations and investment houses that are buying up all this property and jacking up the rents.
00:06:01.000How widespread is this algorithmic or digital collusion?
00:06:26.000And there was a smaller settlement earlier this year with a smaller landlord.
00:06:30.000But this first step with Graystar, this proposed settlement, is, we think, a really concrete step in the right direction and hopefully will get us to a global resolution with everyone involved.
00:06:41.000We think it's really good government and it's going to give relief to consumers today rather than five years from now.
00:06:47.000You know, I think one of the really heartening aspects of the Trump administration is this push towards antitrust legislation and enforcement.
00:06:58.000Josh Hawley has been a strong advocate of this.
00:08:09.000Indeed, they were a monopoly and they had monopolized online search.
00:08:13.000And then under my tenure and with the blessing of President Trump, who put me in office and announced at the time of my nomination that it was with an eye to holding the line on big tech antitrust enforcement.
00:08:29.000So earlier this year, we brought the Google case forward to what we call the remedies phase.
00:08:36.000And so that involved a multi week trial just to focus on remedies.
00:08:40.000Given that the judge found Google liable of monopolization last year, what would be an effective remedy to that conduct?
00:08:48.000And so we put a couple of different options out there for the judge.
00:08:51.000It's obviously his decision at the end of the day.
00:08:54.000Google has for many years paid companies like Apple, like the cell phone carriers to be the default search engine on Apple's phones in particular.
00:09:04.000And that's that's a big chunk of the market.
00:09:07.000And they paid Apple billions of dollars every year for that contract.
00:09:11.000We said, you know, these contracts are problematic because they're closing off competitors from reaching consumers in the search market.
00:09:19.000And we proposed some other remedies around data sharing so that the data that other companies, other search engines need to reach scale in this market could be freed up and used to compete with Google, to innovate Google.
00:09:35.000All of that good stuff that we love to see in our free markets that was not really taking place for several decades.
00:09:43.000And we also proposed in our remedies, again, it's the judge's decision that that Google divest its Chrome browser.
00:09:53.000And that matters because the Chrome browser, for those of you familiar with Google's products, is very tightly integrated with search.
00:10:00.000And we estimate that about a third of all searches Americans engage in every day run through that browser.
00:10:07.000And so Chrome browser divestiture was one of the remedies we put forward.
00:10:12.000The judge in D.C. is, I think, fine tuning his opinion as you and I talk.
00:10:19.000And we're expecting a decision from him any day now.
00:10:25.000As I said, this was a bipartisan case, not only bipartisan at the federal level between the previous Trump administration, the last administration and today.
00:10:35.000It was also joined and signed on to by 49 different states.
00:10:40.000That's a really big number, making it a landmark decision in our world.
00:10:45.000And we think it's going to be a really, really important decision for antitrust enforcement going forward.
00:10:51.000It will send a strong signal that we are serious about robust antitrust enforcement under President Trump's watch.
00:11:00.000Teddy Roosevelt would be very, very proud.
00:11:03.000And this problem of information monopolization, the search engine is still one of the, if not the most used method to gain information, whether it be news, whether it be research, whether it be just simply where you're going to shop.
00:11:20.000So I think that this practice of pushing out the competitors and especially when you look at the bias in Google's algorithms and the way in which it's being gamed at this point to push search results up in the order.
00:11:38.000I really think that this is important for a number of reasons, but the biggest reason is the vast impact that these corporations have on our lives.
00:11:50.000Now, I won't rope you in to our opinions on the digitization of all culture, but this impact has shaped reality.
00:12:02.000And for any one corporation to have most or all of the control is completely unacceptable.
00:12:07.000And I think it's really heartening to see actual solutions moving forward to divest them of this power and hopefully bring other companies up.
00:12:16.000I mean, I'm not a huge fan of Brave or DuckDuckGo, but at least you know that there are options.
00:12:22.000There's some diversity in the field of information that people can actually have some chance of making their own decisions instead of having just one funnel of reality pushed into their brains and the information pushed in.
00:12:36.000So before we go, we've only got a couple of minutes left.
00:12:39.000I'm wondering, are there any other cases moving forward in this push towards antitrust action that we should know about?
00:12:52.000The ones that are most interesting, I think, to the war room posse, I expect, are the Google case.
00:12:59.000We also are looking at the ways in which we can use the antitrust tools, the scalpel, not the sledgehammer, it's law enforcement, it's not regulation, to foster competition in healthcare markets.
00:13:12.000And this is another pocketbook issue that President Trump was elected to carry forward and democratize the economy around.
00:13:21.000We have executive orders from the White House that are tasking us with looking into drug pricing.
00:13:27.000Also the PBMs, the pharmacy benefit managers.
00:13:33.000And so we're obviously keeping a close eye on those executive orders and thinking about the ways in which we can comply with them, working with sister agencies across the Trump administration.
00:13:45.000And it's a very, very important pocketbook market for all Americans, not just for the war room posse, but in particular for working class Americans.
00:15:00.000This July, there is a global summit of BRICS nations in Rio de Janeiro, the block of emerging superpowers, including China, Russia, India and Persia, are meeting with the goal of displacing the United States dollar as the global currency.
00:15:15.000They're calling this the Rio reset as BRICS nations push forward with their plans.
00:15:21.000Global demand for U.S. dollars will decrease, bringing down the value of the dollar in your savings while this transition won't not happen overnight.
00:15:30.000But trust me, it's going to start in Rio.
00:15:33.000The Rio reset in July marks a pivotal moment when BRICS objectives move decisively from a theoretical possibility towards an inevitable reality.
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00:18:15.000That was Sam Altman promising a digital deity for everyone.
00:18:20.000Everyone has a super genius in their pocket, PhD level.
00:18:25.000Well, last week GPT-5 launched and the reception was disappointed to say the least.
00:18:33.000It may have the capabilities of a PhD, but only if the PhD is incapable of arranging information in a cogent manner
00:18:44.000and occasionally hallucinating presidents or facts out of nowhere.
00:18:49.000Now, no one, I think, has called out Sam Altman for his over promising more than the NYU professor of cognitive science, Gary Marcus.
00:19:01.000Gary has a lot of different views than most of us here at the War Room.
00:19:07.000He certainly doesn't share our politics, but he is an excellent resource for information and I think an excellent resource for arguments against the use of AI in every aspect of our lives from education to medicine to the military, at least in its current form.
00:19:26.000If it's an extremely flawed technology, it should not be pushed down the throats of students, doctors and soldiers.
00:19:33.000Gary Marcus, thank you very much for joining us.
00:19:41.000And I couldn't agree more with what you just said.
00:19:44.000And I'm glad you said the last little piece of it, which is maybe some future technology would merit being used across the board for everything that we do.
00:19:54.000The problem is the current technology just does not deliver on its promises.
00:19:58.000And so you don't want, for example, a hallucination machine to be teaching your kids.
00:20:08.000I really want to talk about the quantified aspects of the hallucinations, which seem to be reduced in the new model.
00:20:15.000But more than anything, I just want to allow you to take your victory lap on this GPT-5 launch.
00:20:22.000Obviously, they may not have said GPT-5 will be artificial general intelligence.
00:20:30.000Just for the audience's benefit, they've heard this a million times.
00:20:34.000But right now, today, the definition of AGI most agree on is an AI system that is able to do anything a human worker could do.
00:20:45.000And clearly, it was nothing of the sort.
00:20:48.000But they were teasing it, and they have all these influencers who are constantly pushing this idea that the next model is going to be this artificial general or artificial godlike intelligence.
00:21:23.000I mean, I think they have, you know, they have an emoji at OpenAI for me because they dislike me so much.
00:21:30.000And they kept spouting that, you know, these systems were going to do all this amazing stuff.
00:21:35.000And they basically did like a three year long marketing campaign to try to convince people that this thing was going to be amazing.
00:21:42.000And I kept saying, no, it's not going to be amazing. It'll be cool, but it's not going to be so much better than these other models.
00:21:48.000This idea of scaling that you can just make the models better and better by adding more data is not going to get us where they want to go.
00:21:56.000And, you know, nobody really took me very seriously until last week.
00:21:59.000And then when they dropped it, even in the first few minutes of the live stream, I think, you know, Sam said it's PhD level and people were ready to be shocked and amazed.
00:22:09.000There is a manifold market you can see and everybody was thinking OpenAI has got this.
00:22:15.000They're going to have, you know, the best models.
00:22:17.000And you look at it and like over the course of the hour, everybody kind of realized it's not really what they're promising, is it?
00:22:24.000And then people went home for the next several days and tried the system.
00:22:29.000And as you say, the dominant reaction was disappointment.
00:22:32.000And there are people that really dislike what I've had to say posting things on Twitter.
00:22:37.000Like, I really, really hate to say this, but Gary Marcus was right.
00:22:41.000It went so far that people called it Gary Marcus Day.
00:22:44.000Like, this is not a good outcome for OpenAI when they do their big, splashy presentation of what's supposed to be their most amazing thing.
00:22:52.000And then people end up calling that Gary Marcus Day when I'm their big nemesis.
00:22:56.000I mean, so, yes, I think I can take a victory lap if we want to be honest about it.
00:23:02.000Well, so this issue of hallucinations, this is a real problem.
00:23:06.000It's not a problem if you're playing with AI.
00:23:09.000It's not a problem if you want to go back and check everything that this machine is feeding to you, which in some ways makes the entire process kind of comical to begin with.
00:23:18.000But if you have students who come to rely on this for all the answers to the truths of the world, if you have doctors who come to rely on this for diagnostics or therapies, it's a major, major problem.
00:23:32.000But the internal benchmarks at OpenAI showed a drastic reduction in hallucinations, something like 5X for some parameters, something like 10X for others.
00:23:44.000I'm curious what your opinion is on that.
00:23:48.000Is the problem of hallucinations being dealt with by these companies, even 1% hallucination, is this a problem that really makes the technology not worth incorporating into major institutions in the U.S.?
00:24:04.000Well, I mean, it does depend on the context.
00:24:07.000But even 1%, as you're kind of pointing out there, can be pretty serious.
00:24:11.000I mean, imagine using a technology like that in driverless cars.
00:24:15.000If 1% of the time it makes up a vehicle that's not there or something like that, then that couldn't be fatal.
00:24:20.000So it really depends on what you're looking at.
00:24:24.000But for many domains, including education, 1% hallucination can still be pretty bad.
00:24:29.000And I'm not sure that we should actually accept that number.
00:24:31.000I mean, lots of people have already documented hallucinations.
00:24:34.000There's something we call Goodhart's Law, which is about benchmarks.
00:24:38.000You have some measurement, and people, after they know about that thing, start to teach to that test.
00:25:44.000They didn't actually use those words, but obviously they were trying to kind of show that they were smarter than me because they were able to get the system to perform right.
00:25:51.000And then I looked at it carefully and it said that Bill Clinton was president from – I think it was 1981 to 1999.
00:25:59.000So that had him overlapping at the same time as Reagan and George H.W. Bush.
00:26:20.000So, you know, this guy looked at his own thing and didn't realize that it was still problematic.
00:26:26.000So these hallucinations can be really subtle and insidious.
00:26:29.000And if you have, you know, in a teaching context where the students themselves don't know the right answer, they're going to miss a bunch of that.
00:26:36.000And people start to have what I call the looks good to me reaction, which is what the guy I'm describing now had, which is he looked at it, seemed good.
00:26:53.000And that's what we've seen over and over and over with these large language models is they get a bunch of stuff right and a bunch of stuff wrong and you never know what.
00:27:00.000You can't really trust them on their own.
00:27:02.000It's not changed in years and years of working on this.
00:27:06.000You know, I am oftentimes asked what I fear most about these technologies, whether it's AI or genetic engineering, whatnot.
00:27:14.000A lot of people are really concerned about the singularity, right?
00:27:17.000This exponential increase in capabilities, this explosion of intelligence that could take over humans.
00:27:23.000Certainly something to keep an eye on without a doubt.
00:27:25.000But I worry that the inverse singularity is our real problem where human intelligence decreases and decreases until it's finally a precipitous drop.
00:27:35.000And all these kind of flawed, wonky technologies appear dazzling to our stupefied eyes.
00:27:41.000But, Gary, we've got to go to a break.
00:27:44.000We'll bring you back on the other side.
00:27:48.000We're going to be talking about the federal moves here in Washington, D.C. against crime.
00:27:56.000And when we come back, I want to ask Gary about his long term vision of where AI goes.
00:28:02.000This is something that I think people really need to focus on even more than these launches of products or any sort of bizarre story you hear about an AI blackmailing an engineer.
00:28:16.000But we'll get to that when we come back.
00:30:02.000Gary, I want to get to the big picture of all of this.
00:30:06.000We can look at the current state of GPT-5 and say this is a silly machine.
00:30:14.000It has a lot of important and useful capabilities, but ultimately it's flawed and certainly it's not artificial general intelligence.
00:30:24.000I'm wondering, from your perspective, you talk a lot about the potential of neurosymbolic AI.
00:30:30.000We don't have to go into the technicalities of it quite yet, but other methods, other approaches besides just scraping vast amounts of literature, of language data, and then shoving it into a massive algorithmic process, the large language model.
00:30:47.000You believe that that approach is basically at a dead end, at a wall, but there are possibilities for other approaches.
00:30:55.000So big picture, is your skepticism that AGI, artificial general intelligence, or even superintelligence aren't possible, won't happen, or is your perspective that current methods are not going to get us there and maybe others will and maybe others should?
00:31:13.000I think current methods really are at a kind of impasse.
00:31:18.000They're making progress in some ways, so the graphics always get better and stuff like that, but they're reaching the same obstacles over and over again.
00:31:27.000So they continue to have problems with hallucinations and so forth.
00:31:30.000I don't think that's a logical problem.
00:31:32.000I think it's a problem with how we're going about things.
00:31:34.000Because sometimes in the history of science, scientists are just wrong.
00:31:38.000And eventually there's self-correction, the field as a whole realizes that they're stuck and they try something else.
00:31:44.000So everybody thought that genes were made of proteins early in the 20th century, and they were wrong.
00:31:49.000And eventually they figured out that they were made of this weird sticky acid that we now know as DNA.
00:31:54.000So, you know, for 20 years people pursued the wrong path.
00:31:58.000And I think to some extent that's true now.
00:32:00.000I don't really think large light in which models will disappear, but we will come up with much better techniques.
00:32:05.000We need some major innovations and rethinking, going back to the drawing board.
00:32:10.000We'll keep these current tools, but we will invent other tools.
00:32:33.000I don't know if it will take 10 years, 20 years, 50 years, but I think it will probably happen this century.
00:32:39.000But this is a really tough topic because, granted, if we have 10 years or 50 years to prepare for a system that would be able to replace all intellectual work and assuming that robotics keep pace, all blue collar work, all physical labor.
00:33:24.000When robots can do all our plumbing and carpentry, that'd be a major advance compared to where we are now.
00:33:32.000We might actually have a kind of life of leisure then.
00:33:35.000We have a lot of economic questions about, you know, who gets the wealth and how is it distributed?
00:33:39.000Prices might come down, but people might have very meager amounts of money because there's not a lot that they can do that actually commands income.
00:33:52.000We do need to start preparing for changes in society.
00:33:55.000Maybe not quite as fast as Silicon Valley would lead you to believe.
00:33:58.000I think Silicon Valley hypes these things so they can drive up valuations and, you know, get more money for the things that they're doing.
00:34:05.000They try to instill a sense of fear that's maybe not realistic compared to now.
00:34:10.000But sure, 50 years from now, things will be pretty different.
00:34:14.000You know, from my own perspective, just the desire, especially the immediate desire that we are going to replace all of you and your labor will be worth nothing.
00:34:24.000You'll have no negotiating power whatsoever in five years, in 10 years.
00:34:29.000Maybe your biological form will be irrelevant and should be either cast aside or perhaps uploaded and preserved in a data center.
00:34:37.000These are the sorts of thoughts that if I told you that this was my fantasy, you would say, Joe, you are a psychopath.
00:35:00.000That, you know, we might have an economy that's a thousand times bigger, but people might not be part of the picture.
00:35:07.000You know, I don't think you and I, even though our politics may differ, really want that kind of world where there's a bigger economy, but there's no human beings left, you know, having meaningful lives or maybe even having lives at all.
00:35:20.000It was really scary when Peter Thiel, you know, hesitated when he was asked, but they'll still be people.
00:35:40.000The Peter Thiel issue is very, very important because so many people on the right look up to him as an icon, not only as an entrepreneur, but a philosopher.
00:35:50.000That hesitation, while granted, Peter Thiel seems to be hesitating and thinking up what he's going to say on the fly with almost anything that he says.
00:35:59.000But a ready answer would have just been, yeah, I want humans to go on.
00:36:04.000Yeah, I think humans are better than robots.
00:37:41.000I don't like being up here talking about how unsafe and how dirty and disgusting this once-beautiful capital was.
00:37:49.000The murder rate in Washington today is higher than that of Bogota, Colombia, Mexico City, some of the places that you hear about as being the worst places on Earth.
00:39:22.000I mean, D.C. has over 3,000 cops, so you do the math.
00:39:25.000A very small federal presence as of now.
00:39:28.000We're going to need a much larger federal presence moving forward.
00:39:31.000And so I hope that by him opening this door, the administration fully walks through it and does what needs to be done in Washington, D.C.
00:39:39.000Furthermore, when that 30 days expires, Congress can extend it.
00:39:43.000And so we should be planning for a long and sustained, very visible, very large presence in Washington, D.C.
00:39:49.000Ultimately, it will be up to the Trump administration of whether this is just a rhetorical type announcement for political purposes or they're going to see it through.
00:39:57.000And I hope they see it through for the long haul.
00:39:59.000So D.C. has always had a major crime problem.
00:40:04.000And I'm curious, then, from your perspective, is this really necessary?
00:40:08.000Is the federalization of the police force really going to be required to get this under control?
00:40:16.000I mean, the optimal thing would be overturning or passing a new thing to override the Home Rule Act, which completely takes away any ability of, quote unquote, self-government in D.C.
00:40:27.000The practical reality is D.C. isn't ready or capable of self-government.
00:40:32.000Right now, the way it operates is basically through moneyed interest vying for control of the city council or the mayor's office, where they then compete with the political machinery from the Democrats on the other end.
00:40:44.000So we aren't seeing a political process play out in Washington, D.C. over the decades where Home Rule has been in place.
00:41:01.000You have just vagrancy and quality of life kind of crimes throughout.
00:41:05.000And particularly after Black Lives Matter, where the policy aim was basically to legalize criminal activity amongst, you know, preferred demographic groups.
00:41:14.000The things have gotten just worse in D.C. where just everyday crime is allowed.
00:41:19.000And particularly with some of the youth violence, predominantly African-American males, almost exclusively African-American young males, a rampant rise in carjacking because people under that age cap of 18 can basically get away with it and re-release.
00:41:34.000So it's a lot of left wing fever dreams turning into an apocalyptic situation in D.C. over the last few years.
00:41:41.000Yeah, I've known a number of people to be mugged here.
00:41:46.000I like I say, as I walk the streets, it looks like regular old D.C.
00:42:08.000Absolutely. So I'm on X at ML tweets, president of the oversight project, which is at it's your gov.
00:42:14.000And we're going to stay on top. D.C. is, you know, right where we work out of.
00:42:18.000If we need to litigate, we'll litigate, investigate, we'll investigate.
00:42:21.000We want to make sure the Trump administration has enough room to actually see through a full scale return to safety and order in Washington, D.C.
00:42:37.000So when you're thinking about these apocalyptic scenarios, War Room Posse, my patriot supply is your go to to hunker down and survive the crime apocalypse.
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00:47:53.000And this is a really important thing because even if the Trump administration is successful
00:47:58.000in asking the citizenship data or the citizenship question on the census,
00:48:03.000if you don't figure out or fix or reform the differential privacy algorithm, it can move that data around in a manner that makes it so that when it comes to the redistricting process,
00:48:15.000you're not getting as much utility out of it because you don't actually know where they're at to account for them.
00:48:21.000And so then, therefore, you can't create districts that have equal amounts of citizens in them.
00:48:27.000You'll have some districts that have a lot of illegals and other districts that have very few illegals in them.
00:48:33.000Even if you know the total number in that state, you can't fix it in the redistricting as easily.
00:49:30.000Well, when it comes to maps, rural areas, just as a nonpartisan objective fact, rural areas tend to vote more for Republicans and cities tend to vote more for Democrats.
00:49:40.000Well, if the cities have more population because of differential privacy and then also counting illegals on top of that, then you basically have a situation where these cities have outmatched amounts of political power that then gives them more representation than they're supposed to have and deprives rural areas of their power.
00:50:00.000If you fix all this, not as a partisan issue, just as an objective, neutral observation, all of this will help the right and it will not help the left.
00:50:11.000And by the way, all of the errors in the 2020 census, they all just so happened to help the left.
00:50:16.000None of them broke in our direction in terms of allowing the right or conservatives to have more representation in Congress.
00:50:23.000All of the mistakes helped the left and that's just from the counting.
00:50:27.000Now we have differential privacy, counting of illegal aliens in the redistricting.
00:50:34.000If you do that entire process over fairly, which I think that the Trump administration is going to do by republishing the 2020 census, then I think that you're going to see a seismic shift in the potentially the electoral college and certainly in the redistricting process that's going to benefit the right versus the left.
00:50:51.000But it will be a fair representation of actual voters and citizens.