In this special edition of War Room, host Natalie Winters interviews the Vice President of Taiwan, Ma Ying-jeans, about her life in public service, her experience on the front lines against Chinese Communist Party aggression, and what it means to live in a country that is fighting for freedom and democracy.
00:02:51.000I'm grateful for the opportunity, not just to be here, but to witness firsthand the resilience and bravery of the Taiwanese people
00:02:58.000in standing up to aggression from the Chinese Communist Party.
00:03:03.000Yes, well, it's important that the American people also understand.
00:03:08.000Although we live in a very complicated geopolitical environment,
00:03:13.000the Taiwanese people are adamant about defending our freedom and protecting our society.
00:03:19.000And I know Americans, you know, you look at your culture in the context of the land of the free and the home of the brave.
00:03:27.000And although we have a very different history, I think a lot of Taiwanese also see ourselves and our island as island of the free and the home of the brave.
00:03:37.000Many people fought to bring about the freedoms that you see in our society and the prosperity that has been delivered to the people.
00:03:46.000The diligence of our society and the strength especially of our civil society and open government,
00:03:55.000I think all of these have contributed to what you see today in Taiwan.
00:03:58.000And you certainly are a testament to that.
00:04:01.000I want our audience to understand you better.
00:04:04.000Can you take us to a single day that quietly changed the course of your life in public service?
00:04:13.000Well, when you're in public service, there are just so many ups and downs that it's hard to qualify everything in a single day.
00:04:18.000But let me bring you back to the 1990s because that was a very important period in Taiwan's democratic transformation.
00:04:27.000And we had just ended 37 years of martial law, you know, one party authoritarian rule in Taiwan.
00:04:34.000And we were in the process of transition.
00:04:36.000You know, I was a young student and, you know, actually, you know, studying.
00:04:42.000I thought I would do a PhD, but I just got so distracted by a lot of things going on and all the changes happening.
00:04:50.000I was studying in the United States and eventually went to work for Taiwan's leading opposition party at the time,
00:04:59.000which was the party that really fought for democracy and freedom in Taiwan.
00:05:04.000But in 1996, Taiwan was having our very first ever presidential election.
00:05:11.000Now, that's a big moment for a young democracy, for a transition.
00:05:17.000And China found that offensive and decided to conduct missile tests and exercises in the vicinity of Taiwan's coastal area and in the Taiwan Strait.
00:05:28.000You know, and as a young person living in the United States, I was looking at this and I thought,
00:05:33.000look, I don't want to spend the rest of my youth in the library of Columbia University.
00:05:40.000And I want to, you know, come back and be part of change and defending Taiwan where I grew up.
00:05:47.000And so, you know, it was around that time I made a decision to come back and started to get involved in political life here in Taiwan.
00:05:59.000And I think for a lot of people that was also a turning point in terms of the way we see our identity.
00:06:07.000And that is, you know, Taiwan's identity, it's not just, it's not an ethnic identity.
00:06:15.000It's about the fact that we can have elections, choose our own leadership, choose our own form of government.
00:06:21.000It's about that power, you know, empowering the people to decide our own future.
00:06:26.000And it's about the determination to resist forms of coercion, such as the military, the missile tests or the exercises that China conducted in an attempt to instill fear in our people.
00:06:40.000And I think that that was also the beginning of a very vibrant and robust democracy.
00:06:47.000And I'm just so, so honored that I was able to be part of that.
00:06:51.000And I was of a generation kind of, you know, in between, you know, the excitement was that we were in transition.
00:06:58.000We were seeing Taiwan transform from a one party dictatorship into an open, competitive, vibrant, robust democracy.
00:07:07.000But at the same time, I wasn't old enough to have to endure the pains of martial law.
00:07:12.000And that is, you know, a decade ago, people were jailed, imprisoned, or even disappeared or murdered for their political beliefs and for advocating basic human rights.
00:07:23.000And I came at an age when Taiwan was already in the process of transformation.
00:07:29.000And so I did not have to endure those early dangers of my predecessors.
00:07:35.000But it does remind me that, again, freedom is not free.
00:07:44.000It requires a lot of activism to defend what is so meaningful and to cherish what we have.
00:07:51.000And on this idea of standing up to fear, my audience, I think, deeply understands the existential threat that is posed by the Chinese Communist Party against free and open societies, our countries alike.
00:08:05.000And given Taiwan's own very personal and long experience of confronting that challenge, could you speak to these sort of shared values and cultural principles that really link our societies?
00:08:16.000Well, I think, as I said in the outset, you know, the way we see American values in the context of, you know, you being a country, the land of the free and the home of the brave.
00:08:29.000And I think from our perspective, we fully understand.
00:08:33.000And within our generation, we have endured different types of political systems.
00:08:37.000And our partnership is based on our shared values.
00:08:43.000And that is, you know, freedom and a democratic form of government.
00:08:47.000And also, you know, beyond values, it's about interests.
00:08:51.000It's about our shared interests in preserving the peace and stability in the Indo-Pacific region.
00:08:57.000It's about our shared interests in upholding rules-based international order, where the freedom of navigation, where trade, and where societies interact with each other without force or coercion.
00:09:10.000And it's also about our shared interests in prosperity, in developing technology that is not compromised for their privacy, developing technology that advances humanity rather than as tools of control by government.
00:09:28.000And so I think we just have so much in common, again, although we have different histories.
00:09:34.000But I do want to highlight one aspect of our history.
00:09:37.000And that is, like the American people, you know, the people in Taiwan have come here over generations to build a good life, to find a good life, and to participate in creating opportunities for future generations.
00:09:56.000And I think that spirit of diligence, of pioneering, of building, and I think that is also a very, very important kind of stream of values.
00:10:14.000And finally, I want to highlight the fact of our civil society.
00:10:18.000And that is, when you look at different countries, you know, you kind of, sometimes you look at the form of government or what their states do.
00:10:24.000But I think the strength of Taiwan and the United States is also in the strength of our private sector and in our society, in our civil society, the innovation, the openness, the friendliness, the generosity, the hospitality.
00:10:40.000You know, all of that makes Taiwan a force for good in the world.
00:10:44.000And I think a lot of Taiwanese people have also seen the United States as a leader, as a force for good, too.
00:10:51.000And we aspire to be also a force for good in the world.
00:10:55.000Well, I think these shared values are wonderful, but there also is, of course, a shared reality.
00:11:00.000And I'm curious to get your thoughts of how close are we or what the landscape looks like at the point where hybrid warfare, cyber information, psychological attacks, and other ways have become just as destructive as, you know, potential kinetic conflict.
00:11:16.000Yes, well, I think this is a very sober situation.
00:11:21.000And we are indeed in very complicated, a very difficult geopolitical environment where the military threats have persisted actually since 1996 or 95, the moment I had just described when we were having our first ever presidential election.
00:11:39.000And China has not renounced the use of force.
00:11:43.000In fact, they have been utilizing their expanded and, you know, actually rapidly expanding military strength to assert themselves in a very aggressive way, not only towards Taiwan, but as we are seeing towards our neighbors, towards Japan, the Philippines, and the South China Sea.
00:12:02.000And they're positioning their military even in Africa, Djibouti, and other parts of the world.
00:12:08.000You mentioned another very important aspect, and that is hybrid warfare.
00:12:12.000And I know you have quoted Sun Tzu in, you know, in the Art of War and how part of Chinese philosophy is an attempt to subdue the enemy without fighting.
00:12:27.000And so they have also devised a number of hybrid war tactics, psychological warfare, cognitive warfare, disinformation, the use of cyber attacks, and political manipulation, infiltration in our political system.
00:12:43.000And, you know, many tools to try to coerce our society, to try to instill fear in our society into submission.
00:12:55.000And that is an ongoing, this is already happening.
00:12:59.000It is, you know, Taiwan society is one of the most highly attacked societies in the cyberspace in the world.
00:13:10.000And let me just give you some examples that maybe American people can also relate to.
00:13:16.000And that is a few years ago when I was living in Washington, D.C., there was a colonial pipeline incident where a cyber attack paralyzed the delivery of oil and gas to many American homes and families and cars.
00:13:29.000And it was during COVID-19, so many people were working at home.
00:13:33.000But think about the impact that can have on travel and on your working and on the economy.
00:13:39.000And more recently, we've seen in Europe also cyber attacks on airports, on flight controls.
00:13:46.000And I was in Brussels a few weeks ago.
00:13:50.000And prior to that, there were drone presence in the Brussels airport also generated lockdowns or close downs and suspension
00:14:02.000of flights and really disrupting the normal pattern of life for people in that region.
00:14:11.000And so I think we are seeing these tactics now appear in many parts of the world.
00:14:15.000And we are seeing our security affected, our lives affected by these hybrid forms of attack.
00:18:59.000You cannot join international organizations.
00:19:02.000You cannot contribute to global public health.
00:19:05.000Although Taiwan was one of the first countries to try to alert the World Health Organization that there was a looming COVID-19 virus or potential pandemic.
00:19:16.000And so, you know, all of these restrictions and trying to sow divisions between Taiwan and our partners, I think, is also another effort to force Taiwan into submission.
00:19:35.000But, of course, we continue to resist.
00:19:37.000And our society is also very proactive in educating ourselves in media literacy and trying to discern disinformation from the truth in trying to fortify our confidence in our political system, in our military, in our government, but also between our peoples.
00:19:58.000And, again, we're working on strengthening our partnership with the United States so that China cannot, you know, sow these divisions, try to isolate Taiwan.
00:20:09.000And there is a lot of work to do in this space, but I think, you know, with our determination and with a little help from others, I think we are making also some good progress.
00:20:20.000And given that evolving and certainly ever-present threat landscape, how would you define winning in cross-straight relations?
00:20:29.000What would a 2032 end state look like where peace is maintained, ties are normalized without a shot being fired?
00:20:37.000Well, I think ultimately sustainable peace, which is what we aspire for.
00:20:44.000Sustainable peace, eventually, I don't know why you put the timeline of 2032, but for us, it's about enduring and sustainable peace, you know, on that day or beyond.
00:20:59.000And we don't have timelines for peace.
00:21:01.000It is something that we have to continue to work for.
00:21:05.000From Taiwan's perspective, peace cannot involve domination by one side over another.
00:21:13.000As long as there is domination, repression, or suppression of others, there will always be resistance.
00:21:19.000And that is not a sustainable form of peace.
00:21:21.000So peace has to involve a degree of respect for each other.
00:21:26.000And from Taiwan's perspective, what we are spying for is, you know, continuing with our way of life, you know, preserving our freedom, our democracy,
00:21:36.000and the right of the Taiwanese people to be masters of our own destiny.
00:21:41.000And that is the right of the Taiwanese people to determine our own future and also to be respected by other countries in the world for that particular position.
00:21:51.000And I think a sustainable peace across the Taiwan Strait would involve a much more enlightened leadership in China or awareness that a degree of respect for the wishes of the Taiwanese people is part of the formula for peaceful coexistence.
00:22:10.000Now, as I said, sustainable peace involves, you know, all stakeholders.
00:22:15.000And all stakeholders need to feel that we are part of a winning formula.
00:22:21.000And I know the Chinese leadership has talked about the rejuvenation of the Chinese nation.
00:22:26.000And I think the Chinese people also feel that they deserve a degree of respect for their economic progress, for their technological progress.
00:22:36.000And – but I think from our perspective, we hope that that progress is also accompanied by greater compassion, empathy, and understanding that the people of Taiwan should have the right to also determine our own future.
00:22:54.000And I think if that respect exists, we will be in a situation where I think the people of Taiwan are generally very friendly and open and that we can work with each other.
00:23:07.000But again, that's a very ideal situation.
00:23:11.000And that is the reality that, you know, there is a lot of nationalistic animosity coming from China towards Taiwan.
00:23:23.000There is very aggressive military posturing.
00:23:27.000There is a threat to use force against the Taiwanese people.
00:23:30.000And none of that is conducive to that scenario that I just described, to mutual respect and sustainable peace.
00:23:37.000And that is why we also need to build on our strength.
00:23:40.000And so I think an ideal situation for us involves a strong and confident Taiwan economically and also militarily with also some international support where we can feel confident that our decisions about our future will be respected.
00:23:59.000And so we also subscribe to the concept that Americans talk about, and that is peace through strength.
00:24:06.000Ultimately, it's about understanding the language of strength.
00:24:09.000And by building a greater strength, and I think that is also part of deterrence.
00:24:15.000You know, ultimately what we are doing is celebrating and building on peace, but also deterring and preventing conflict.
00:24:28.000But it does require determination to invest in our own strength and our own self-defense.
00:24:35.000And getting granular on what that hard work looks like, what options for defense industrial-based collaboration between Taiwan and the United States makes the most sense to you?
00:24:46.000Are there co-production opportunities that would be of interest?
00:24:50.000Well, the United States has been Taiwan's most important security partner.
00:24:54.000And Taiwan over the years has acquired a lot of very important defense equipment from the United States.
00:25:03.000But we are at a stage where sometimes the delivery doesn't meet demand, and that we need to take it upon ourselves to also shoulder responsibilities in building ourselves.
00:25:14.000And – but also in co-production opportunities with the United States.
00:25:18.000And I think Taiwan has certainly accumulated many capabilities in scaling and manufacturing where we can also contribute to our partners in working together.
00:25:33.000And I would say that, you know, we've been putting a lot of focus in drones and robotics.
00:25:39.000And we've – you know, we're looking at theaters around the world and how asymmetric capabilities support resilience.
00:25:49.000And so we have just over the last year or two started from ground zero and built up, you know, our own domestic drone supply chain, our own capabilities.
00:26:01.000And we're also moving into other forms of robotics.
00:26:05.000And I think these are areas where cooperation with secure supply chains and innovation with the United States and other democratic partners that will help to expedite the ability of us to sustain that asymmetric edge and the ability to deter and defend.
00:26:26.000And speaking to the broader American public, what is the 90-second case that you would make for how Taiwan can help ordinary American workers and small businesses, whether it's supply chains, jobs, resilience?
00:26:39.000Let me start by bringing everyone to Arizona.
00:26:45.000And, you know, Taiwan, you know, our major chip manufacturing company called Taiwan Semiconductor, a chip manufacturing company, TSMC, has invested in Arizona to build mega fabs to produce high-end chips in the United States.
00:27:04.000It is a mega facility. It is a mega facility. It's like an airport.
00:27:09.000But it is also the largest greenfield investment by a foreign country in the United States in your history.
00:27:17.000And it's meaningful. It will contribute to making the chips that will go into your cars, your manufacturing.
00:27:24.000They will go to Detroit. They will go to other parts of America.
00:27:28.000They will go into your iPhones. They will go into a lot of the electronic products, your AI data centers, your computing powers.
00:27:36.000And, you know, this is Taiwan's contribution to American manufacturing.
00:27:41.000That is, we will contribute to parts and components that are reliable, trusted, efficient, and competitive.
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00:29:08.000In the War Room, here's your host, Stephen K. Bannon.
00:29:15.000But together, with our supply chains working together, I think we can certainly advance a lot more.
00:29:23.000And Taiwan will continue to contribute to the supply chains needed for manufacturing in the United States.
00:29:32.000And I think this is a win-win situation for both of us.
00:29:35.000You know, ultimately, Taiwanese companies also desire to be global companies.
00:29:40.000And partnering with our best friends in the United States is one of the ways to expand Taiwan's presence in the world.
00:29:48.000It's also a great way to contribute to American manufacturing, to the growth of American businesses, and the growth of American technologies.
00:29:57.000I know the American people are very grateful for that, and I think that collaborating on all things drones only seems to be the logical conclusion and next step.
00:30:07.000But for those Americans who would argue that we're stretched maybe too thin, Ukraine, Israel, the Indo-Pacific heating up, what would you say to those who are maybe, you know, fearing another foreign commitment?
00:30:19.000I think nobody wants conflict or war, and I think we feel the same way as American people feel, that we do not want to see a conflict here in the Taiwan Strait.
00:30:37.000And so everything we are doing today, including the strengthening of our own military and self-defense capabilities, strengthening of our economy, is part of deterring and preventing a conflict.
00:30:51.000And so I think it's important that American people understand that supporting a strong Taiwan is also part of our shared agenda, our shared interest in sustaining peace and stability in the Indo-Pacific region.
00:31:07.000And sustaining the balance, although it is not a satisfactory situation for any single stakeholder here, but it is a balance, a status quo that has worked for all of us.
00:31:21.000And, you know, preventing conflict is our shared agenda, and part of that, as I have said in this interview, is about building Taiwan's strength, sustaining peace through strength.
00:31:33.000And so continuing this very strong defense partnership, but also working on the economic side in ways that we can foster win-win prosperity for both our peoples so that we do have the strength to continue to build is important.
00:31:51.000And the second aspect is – the second point I want to make is that, you know, the Taiwanese people are not, you know, sitting around waiting to be saved.
00:31:59.000You know, we are proactively investing in our defenses.
00:32:04.000We are – we have increased our defense budget over the past few years by 80 percent over the last DPP administration.
00:32:15.000And we intend to increase our defense spending in the years to come, including not only acquisitions from the United States, but also in building here in Taiwan.
00:32:26.000You know, the drones, robotics, the AI systems, the new and emerging technologies that could also contribute to broader national security.
00:32:36.000And we are taking – you know, shouldering responsibilities to promote and support peace in the Taiwan Strait.
00:32:47.000And we are also, you know, going beyond that, shouldering international responsibilities, although Taiwan is preventing from joining international organizations wherever there is a need in the world.
00:33:00.000There is an earthquake, a natural disaster.
00:33:02.000You know, Taiwanese people are very compassionate, kind people, and we're always ready to contribute to help and to support people in need in other parts of the world.
00:33:12.000And, you know, so again, you know, we are not, you know, sitting around waiting to exploit a blank check or to be saved.
00:35:27.000And, you know, after all, the United States is the most experienced and, you know, top rate.
00:35:33.000And I think the Taiwanese will feel greater confidence if we know that we are being trained by the best in the world.
00:35:40.000And so, you know, we have a lot of reforms needed, and we are in the process of doing so.
00:35:47.000But, you know, good coordination with our partners, building together, working together,
00:35:53.000I think all of that contributes to preventing that particular scenario from ever happening.
00:35:59.000And speaking of Washington, I know you've spent a lot of time there.
00:36:03.000What would you say is the largest misconception that Washington has surrounding Taiwan?
00:36:08.000I would say that it would be very dangerous for anyone – not just Washington, but Beijing or anyone in the world –
00:36:21.000it would be dangerous to underestimate the will of the Taiwanese people to protect and defend ourselves.
00:36:27.000And the will of the Taiwanese people to protect ourselves, I think, is also the most important part of deterring conflict.
00:36:36.000And we will, you know, certainly continue to work on the necessary reforms and the steps needed to fortify ourselves.
00:36:48.000But I do want to say that in this area, China is working very hard to project narratives and disinformation in Washington and the United States.
00:37:02.000They want to project a narrative that Taiwan is weak, that Taiwan is incapable, and that Taiwan is not worth supporting.
00:37:12.000They also are trying to project a troublemaker in some sense, as if, like, from the first free election we had for the president in 1996, they found that offensive.
00:37:25.000And they tried to make the argument that that is a disruption of the One China policy.
00:37:33.000Everything we do, including our efforts to defend ourselves, the act of having free elections in Taiwan, the Chinese find offensive.
00:37:41.000And they tend to put that into a narrative of accusing Taiwan as being troublemakers.
00:37:48.000And I think that is highly inaccurate.
00:37:52.000And the only one seeking to disrupt peace and the status quo in this region is the People's Liberation Army.
00:37:59.000We are all for the status quo and for stability.
00:38:02.000And I think – although I think most American people are very wise and smart and they can really see through these psychological warfare, disinformation tactics that are making attempts to divide our countries, our governments, and our peoples.
00:38:19.000But time and again, sometimes when you project a lie ten times, some people catch on to it.
00:38:26.000And we have to be very careful and vigilant about China's political interference, about their narratives, about their disinformation and psychological warfare.
00:38:39.000And again, you know, work with each other to fortify, to coordinate and go beyond, you know, maybe just Taiwan, the United States.
00:38:51.000But, you know, freedom-loving people around the world also need to be vigilant about these playbooks from authoritarian states.
00:39:04.000Just in the few short days that I've been here, it's really been an honor to witness that strength that you're talking about of the Taiwanese people firsthand.
00:39:11.000But continuing to sort of zoom out to that multilateral level, I'm curious how the internal dynamics of the Chinese Communist Party influence your approach to deterrence.
00:39:23.000I think for a lot of Taiwanese people, we tend to want to wish for the best but prepare for the worst.
00:39:33.000And as we prepare for the worst, I think we have to not rule out any possibility.
00:39:42.000And that is, you know, there are internal dynamics in China.
00:39:45.000But experts, you know, have a variety of analysis on how, on what that means for Taiwan.
00:39:54.000For example, there are experts who say that political instability or economic troubles in China might lead to the Chinese calculation that nationalistic diversions or external aggression is needed to sustain the legitimacy of the government.
00:40:20.000And that is a scenario that would be rather dangerous for Taiwan.
00:40:26.000Another scenario, as experts have analyzed, is a China that is overly confident, that miscalculates the will of the Taiwanese people to defend,
00:40:38.000and the actions of international stakeholders to ensure that the rules-based international order is maintained.
00:40:48.000An overconfident China that misjudges that may also take very dangerous steps.
00:40:55.000And so I think no matter how things go in China, we have to, again, prepare for the worst.
00:41:03.000And that is why building on our own strength is so important.
00:41:08.000But I also have to say that, you know, as I said, you know, we want to wish for the best.
00:41:14.000And that is we want to wish for or work on greater international strategic communication in instilling, you know, first of all,
00:41:29.000complicating calculations in Beijing that any attempt at aggression would be a cost too hard to bear.
00:41:40.000And, you know, these calculations, these complications are important part of deterrence.
00:41:45.000But on a more proactive and positive side, and that is we need to foster greater understanding in China that greater respect for the rights of other societies
00:41:58.000and for the wishes of the Taiwanese people to determine our own future is something that could also be good for China,
00:42:05.000that could also support sustained peace and more normalized engagements between the people across the Taiwan Strait.
00:42:14.000and they need to arrive at that understanding because everything they're doing now is generating greater hostility.
00:42:23.000They're generating uncertainties, anxieties, and it is completely counterproductive to an agenda of peace,
00:42:36.000which we feel is also an agenda that should be good for the Chinese people.
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00:47:06.000And we also have very vibrant culture.
00:47:09.000You know, we have food and music and film and the creative arts.
00:47:15.000You know, everything that, you know, free societies also enjoy.
00:47:21.000So I think, you know, trying some Taiwanese food or, you know, a cup of bubble tea, you know, that's a connection to Taiwan.
00:47:29.000But going beyond that, you know, it's also looking at, you know, all the products around you, you know,
00:47:34.000the supply chains and how important it is to work with trusted and reliable partners like Taiwan.
00:47:40.000And, you know, going beyond that, you know, if there's more time, you know, taking a visit here to get a feel of our society like you have,