Bannon's War Room - Episode 5378： The Threat Of The CCP And Underestimating Their Power

00:00:00.000 This is the primal scream of a dying regime.

00:00:07.740 Pray for our enemies, because we're going medieval on these people.

00:00:13.000 I got a free shot at all these networks lying about the people.

00:00:17.260 The people have had a belly full of it.

00:00:19.180 I know you don't like hearing that.

00:00:20.620 I know you try to do everything in the world to stop that,

00:00:22.360 but you're not going to stop it.

00:00:23.300 It's going to happen.

00:00:24.560 And where do people like that go to share the big lie?

00:00:27.980 Mega Media.

00:00:28.860 I wish in my soul, I wish that any of these people had a conscience.

00:00:34.740 Ask yourself, what is my task and what is my purpose?

00:00:38.500 If that answer is to save my country, this country will be saved.

00:00:44.880 War Room. Here's your host, Stephen K. Vann.

00:00:53.440 Okay, Unite the Kingdom. It's Saturday, 16 May, Year of the Lord, 2026.

00:00:57.540 right there you see the unite the kingdom rally massive rally tommy robinson second

00:01:04.100 had one last year also look at this incredible incredible massive crowds great speakers of course

00:01:10.340 they banned starmer's government a band after being lectured by the king of how our liberties

00:01:18.900 all predicated upon what uh what the uh rolls the last time i looked at magna carter i thought that

00:01:24.740 that was the nobles grabbing his forefathers and saying,

00:01:28.160 hey, here's what we're going to do.

00:01:29.440 They didn't want to give it up.

00:01:31.180 They were ordered to give it up.

00:01:33.860 Now they're not even letting Americans go over and participate.

00:01:38.360 But it is what it is until you change it. 0.99

00:01:41.980 We're going to have more on Tina Peters a little later,

00:01:44.240 particularly how you can go support her. 0.90

00:01:45.880 She's out on the first with a commutation.

00:01:48.620 Voting today in Louisiana.

00:01:49.940 and an early voting Monday for Ken Paxton in this incredibly important Senate runoff.

00:01:58.900 Okay, I want to bring in Natalie Winters.

00:02:01.280 Natalie, you had the great honor, and it's because of your coverage and your single-handed focus, 0.75

00:02:07.000 I would almost say maniacal focus, on the unrestricted warfare of the Chinese Communist Party

00:02:11.500 against the United States of America, but also Lao Bajing.

00:02:15.680 You were invited and gave an incredible interview with the vice president of Taiwan.

00:02:21.740 Given I wanted to wait till it all settled in and everybody was back, your observations of what occurred over the last couple of days in Beijing, ma'am?

00:02:32.380 Well, always an honor to be in the war room, though.

00:02:35.040 I guess if we were to let Xi Jinping rename the show, he would probably call it the strategic stability room because that is now the new euphemism for war.

00:02:43.700 as we've heard in Beijing. There's so much to unpack. I think if you go back to some of these

00:02:51.780 seminal texts that guide CCP thought, whether it's military, economics, all of that, of course,

00:02:57.920 being cut from the same cloth, just remember that all warfare is deception, to quote Sun Tzu,

00:03:05.380 and that they are not our friend, they are not our partner. I think to call them our rival

00:03:11.940 is even an understatement. They are our existential threat and our enemy. And frankly,

00:03:17.500 I think I share some of the, probably, I don't want to use the word concern, but there's sort

00:03:21.960 of an unnerving aspect, I think, to what transpired in Beijing. I don't think the United States

00:03:27.800 at the highest levels of the CCP has ever been talked to like that. Of course, we've seen the

00:03:32.960 advent of wolf warrior diplomacy, some of these younger, more junior guys, remember berating

00:03:38.260 Biden apparatchiks, and they just took it. But coming from Xi Jinping, talking about the

00:03:44.460 Thucydides trap, stuff like that, really is an escalation. I also think that it's important to

00:03:51.000 contextualize this, right? A lot of focus has been put, and rightly so, on the Chinese readouts, 1.00

00:03:55.080 comparing that to the United States, which we'll get into the language. The Chinese, they really 0.93

00:04:00.200 appreciate and care about language, not that we don't, but it really holds deeper significance

00:04:05.560 there. But if you compare and contrast this to the readout, you know, back in Trump one,

00:04:10.960 the type of language that is being used is so wholly disparate. It's quite jarring.

00:04:18.060 Back in 2017, it was, we're going to, quote, expand fields of mutually beneficial cooperation.

00:04:23.940 We're going to, quote, control differences, deepen mutual understanding, enhance mutual trust,

00:04:28.580 and build a, quote, sound working relationship. The most important thing there, and this is

00:04:33.040 something that you heard regurgitated from virtually every prc or ccp mouthpiece de facto

00:04:39.500 or du jour and it was that they would quote not take the old path of big powers which seek

00:04:43.960 hegemony once they grow strong right the idea that china is not a threat they want to just exist

00:04:49.340 they would probably pause it in a unipolar world order whereby the united states is the top global 0.87

00:04:54.040 hegemon we have maintained on the show much like the origins of covid much like the prc's takeover

00:04:59.580 of this country, the purchases of farmland, you name it. But that's not the case. They want their

00:05:04.220 own version of a unipolar world order, whereby they are the top dog. They're not even content

00:05:08.940 with a multipolar world order. And I think you see this on full display with the language that

00:05:14.240 they're using, talking about how we are partners, not rivals. This new concept of strategic stability

00:05:21.560 and a, quote, transformation that we have not seen in a century. And if you read Chinese state media,

00:05:28.320 But Xinhua says the two sides stand, quote, a new historical starting point.

00:05:34.240 And of course, I think this is the most direct you've seen the Taiwan issue mentioned, not

00:05:39.620 just by the press, but by Xi Jinping, CCP spokespeople themselves.

00:05:44.400 And I think a lot of people are honing in on the insult that was the Thucydides trap

00:05:49.040 line, which I wanted to contextualize that.

00:05:51.480 I will say, I think, hat tip to our audience watching a lot of the Western press try to

00:05:56.380 you know, understand or reconcile what was going on over there. You have Fox News, you know,

00:06:00.440 taking people on a tour of the subway system. Our audience has known about the Thucydides trap for

00:06:06.620 years. But I think what was equally insulting, frankly, directly to this audience, almost

00:06:12.460 laughing, spitting in our face, was saying that, you know, she is the CCP can work. And I quote

00:06:19.240 hand in hand with MAGA, particularly, I think, preying on President Trump's kind of anti-war

00:06:26.340 instinct and trying to misappropriate that to the Taiwan issue. Of course, they love that we're in

00:06:33.000 these prolonged engagements, whether it's Ukraine, the Middle East, take your pick.

00:06:37.820 But I find that extremely insulting and just outlandish. And if anything, having spent

00:06:43.720 considerable time in Taiwan. It's more of the Taiwanese people that have a lot in common with

00:06:49.680 MAGA, not just because they're on the front lines of the Chinese Communist Party, but they really

00:06:55.160 care about, I mean, you see a whole civil society, civil defense kind of surging and forming in

00:07:00.840 reaction to the increasing aggression and belligerence of the Chinese Communist Party.

00:07:06.320 They're very grassroots, very of the mindset of personal responsibility, and they love America. 0.86

00:07:12.040 So I think that is, I mean, psychological and cognitive warfare at its absolute finest. And to link this to what you were talking about with the Islamic takeover of Texas, they like to say Islam is peace. We know it really means submission to a way of life that's wholly different from the United States. 0.97

00:07:31.540 You know, you got Lululemon making hijabs now. Don't buy Lululemon anymore. But that's in the same way that, you know, I think Beijing defines Taiwan's peace as being submissive to a new world order in which the Chinese Communist Party is in charge. 1.00

00:07:47.860 And when you look at the direct reference of the Thucydides trap, I think to sort of track the historical usage of that term, that was something that was mainly contained to like the most explicit and aggressive United Front groups, right, the groups that were explicitly set up to sort of propagandize on behalf of the Chinese Communist Party here in the West, sort of the fake pseudo-intellectual academic backbone. 0.52

00:08:11.280 I think maybe the 21st century version of this idea of, oh, let's let China enter the WTO because we have to. Their economy is so great. Shout out to NVIDIA for selling away the future of the United States. I'm glad they get some fake spikes in their stock.

00:08:26.220 But what exactly the Thucydides trap is, and this is something that we've, I think, really

00:08:30.120 picked apart on this show, it sort of shrouds what is, I think, a very shoddy theory in

00:08:37.320 a lot of pages, a lot of words, a lot of verbose text, a lot of history, a lot of euphemisms.

00:08:42.360 They describe, you know, China's economic warfare as just geoeconomics. 0.84

00:08:46.620 You know, China's just risen in the international world order because they're just better than 0.86

00:08:50.840 the United States. 0.88

00:08:51.720 No mention of, you know, the predatory lending, anything like that.

00:08:54.260 but the author of the Thucydides trap someone by the name of Graham Allen he used to be the dean

00:09:00.280 at Harvard Kennedy School so that should give you a little insight into the type of diplomats that

00:09:04.500 school is pumping out but this is someone who is sure vaguely American but you know he is so

00:09:12.400 bought and paid for by the Chinese Communist Party I don't think he's ever had an original thought

00:09:16.400 it's the equivalent of academic treason so I guess only fitting that he wouldn't be at Harvard

00:09:21.280 but this is someone who has you know repeatedly visited China he has all this connectivity to

00:09:26.640 these communist influence groups the CAIFC the CPAFFC QCF put it this way in 2024 when he went

00:09:33.440 over to meet with the foreign minister Xi Jinping he also quietly met with Xi Jinping so that should

00:09:39.160 tell you all you need to know about this guy but I think the important part and what really

00:09:44.200 is both the falsehood of this theory but the unfortunate I think lived reality and practical

00:09:51.260 outcome of the acceptance of and among the American elite class is this idea that America

00:09:56.880 is a declining power just by nature of the fact that China is a rising power and that it's

00:10:02.660 inevitable. And they sort of, I think, strawman the argument by saying that, oh, well, people are 0.78

00:10:07.400 saying that it's war that's inevitable. It's not necessarily war. If we continue to fuse our

00:10:12.360 economies, it's the end of history. We'll all be good. But that's not, I think that's a complete

00:10:17.960 Stroman. The inevitability part that I pick an issue with is that America's decline is inevitable.

00:10:24.660 America's decline is only possible by what can be seen as the picture of those so-called business

00:10:29.760 leaders kowtowing, doing the new version, you know, for their lust for market access in the

00:10:35.860 name of the new opening up, the new, you know, tributes in exchange for I don't know what. I

00:10:40.320 don't think the American people will see any upside of that. That is the inevitable part of

00:10:46.100 it, right? American business leaders selling out to China. And I think you can't disentangle what

00:10:51.400 went on in Beijing from the California mayor, from the, you know, New York police station that was

00:10:56.600 somehow operating on behalf of the Chinese government. Make that make sense. They have

00:11:01.560 whole scale bought up and sold out this country. And I guess my biggest critique to Xi Jinping

00:11:06.780 would be, it's not MAGA that you could walk hand in hand with, it's the Democrat party

00:11:11.880 that you actively are walking hand in hand with. I think the last point I would say just to more

00:11:19.140 broadly contextualize this is, I think you've sort of seen a surge in what is Chinese rhetoric

00:11:27.240 coming, whether it's from the media outlets, officials themselves, and to the standing of

00:11:32.140 America, right? They used to at least sort of lie to our faces and say, we're partners,

00:11:36.740 we're going to do this together, which is still not totally accurate. They're our enemy.

00:11:40.780 But a lot of analysis, even going back to under Biden, for example, there was a lot of analysis done about their official statements in 2025. This concept of American decline has doubled the use of that.

00:11:55.220 They analyze thousands of statements. They think, you know, Biden was more of a systemic threat than President Trump. They think he's really transactional. I don't think they quite understand Trump. Or frankly, I think the Trump that you saw in Trump one is very different than the Trump that you saw now and how he is engaging with China.

00:12:13.780 And I think to me, the most unsettling part of all of this and why I think it's sort of doomed for a repeat of whether it's ascension to WTO, including them and all these sort of, you know, weird globalist organizations, letting them into our stock market markets, you name it.

00:12:29.160 Like at least the arguments that they made back then, they were lying to kind of like the WMD to Iraq, now Iran, you don't really get a justification.

00:12:37.160 But they're not even really trying to explain it to us that it's actually a benefit. 0.78

00:12:41.520 I mean, you can't make the case. It's just except the 500,000 students, except that China should like buy more farmland. There's no inherent value to that. They're not students. They're spies. For the love of God, please stop using the term students. These people are military combatants. And even if they are students, I don't think we should be training the next generation of people that we might.

00:13:02.620 Well, we're certainly sitting on the economic information and cyber battlefield right now, but certainly not on the kinetic battlefield.

00:13:09.120 So I would say, I think you said it best in one of your speeches of the new federal state of China.

00:13:13.960 F Xi for saying that MAGA has anything in common with what he pushes there is absolutely a joke. 0.78

00:13:20.240 MAGA has much more in common with the Taiwanese people and the Thucydides trap. 0.77

00:13:24.800 I guess kudos to the PRC for buying off so many Americans. 0.76

00:13:28.640 But American decline does not have to be inevitable. 1.00

00:13:31.820 It does when you have elites like the stupid business leaders that went over there. 1.00

00:13:36.740 It was the reason President Trump came to power in 2015, 2016. 0.99

00:13:41.280 The central thesis of the campaign was the managed decline of the United States of America by an elite that was manifested by Hillary Clinton, by the Clinton and the Democratic Party, but also the controlled opposition of the Republican Party.

00:13:55.200 It was managed decline of the United States.

00:13:56.820 This is why Trump, the pivot, the turnaround, even the construct was immense.

00:14:04.040 Hang on for a second, Natalie.

00:14:05.820 I want to get more to this.

00:14:07.340 Constructive strategic stability.

00:14:10.820 I told you, take your number two pencil out, write that one down. 0.71

00:14:14.920 We're going to deconstruct it here in a moment with our own Natalie Winters. 1.00

00:14:19.800 Short commercial break.

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00:14:45.400 Now, Sam Tannenhaus, magnificent author of the magnificent biography of Buckley,

00:14:53.580 William Buckley, William F. Buckley, also joins us in a moment.

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00:16:24.520 in 2019 2020 you had just gone from prep school to university of chicago you were working with

00:16:39.480 rahim at national pulse and the war room you're one of the leaders uh in gain of function research

00:16:45.160 to be able to pin fauci and what they were doing uh what he was doing and you just had a cia

00:16:51.620 officer testify in front of rand paul the other day talking about how uh fauci came back later

00:16:59.060 and covered his tracks take it from from the intelligence assessment that it was a lab leak

00:17:04.320 from the military lab in Wuhan to, you know, in a bat cave down in southern China, 0.90

00:17:11.700 which is ridiculous. 0.87

00:17:13.940 The constructive strategic stability is just the warning of the Chinese Communist Party

00:17:21.860 to the declining power.

00:17:24.220 Let's be honest.

00:17:24.960 Let's be blunt.

00:17:25.700 They think we're declining power. 0.99

00:17:26.900 To the declining power, don't do anything stupid to unsettle stability 0.99

00:17:32.120 because you will pay for it. 0.96

00:17:34.320 How does that how do we how do we get off the topic, Natalie, of holding the Chinese Communist Party accountable for the reparations they've done for the bioweapon that they launched in the United States? 0.85

00:17:45.960 ma'am. I can't believe we're still talking about Fauci and he's not in prison. But that aside, 0.95

00:17:54.060 I mean, I think there's probably no better example of the distorted relationship that we have with the

00:17:59.060 PRC than that of the origins, lived experience, the pandemic of COVID. But then, of course,

00:18:05.960 the fallout, right, which is these euphemistic terms they would call increased scientific

00:18:10.580 research, you know, promoting strategic stability and international cooperation, as we found out

00:18:15.660 a bunch of U.S. tax dollars have gone to promote Chinese research by military entities in the

00:18:20.940 field of chips, rare earths, all the industries that they are now seeking to dominate us.

00:18:25.580 But when push comes to shove, when there's actually a crisis, a flashpoint, what did 0.85

00:18:29.780 China do, right?

00:18:31.020 They hid all the evidence. 0.93

00:18:32.440 Our intelligence community seemed to have worked hand in glove with them in doing that 0.97

00:18:36.880 because I'm sure there was probably a lot more than just a really happy-go-lucky NIAID

00:18:41.960 grant, going to the Wuhan Institute of Irology, which even just from open source intelligence on

00:18:47.540 their website, you can see how military researchers working there. And even if they didn't, there's no

00:18:52.060 such thing as a Chinese scientific entity that is not part or functioning of their goal to 0.88

00:18:57.360 militarize basically all of their society. Just look at their five-year plans. Look at the speeches 0.96

00:19:01.920 that they've rolled out about high tech and science. But that's the point. It's all smoke

00:19:07.940 and mirrors, and you know it better than anyone, right, Steve, with the skinny deal phase one,

00:19:13.200 they don't follow through on any of their promises. And I think the unfortunate point,

00:19:19.040 and it's maybe a function of four-year terms versus thinking longer Shiism type dynastic

00:19:26.940 terms, is that we take small wins like, oh, they bought some soybeans or, oh, we're going to set

00:19:35.400 up this trade council or oh maybe they'll release some samples to the who of covid um and china is

00:19:43.360 running circles around us controlling the actual systems and outputs in which these negotiations

00:19:48.660 occur we focus on you know short-term victories they focus on long-term reshuffling the map they'll

00:19:54.520 give a little bit they'll buy some soybeans whatever billion dollars is nothing to them

00:19:58.020 in exchange for what seems to be a complete restructuring um at least rhetorically of

00:20:03.040 American policy on Taiwan, a complete opening up, whether it's the H200 chips or any of this stuff.

00:20:09.880 I mean, I'm sorry, the fact that we're not even talking about reparations for COVID, but we're

00:20:14.480 granting them now, what could only be described as doing immeasurably more damage than gain of

00:20:20.100 function research, which is these advanced chips that they would have to waste billions, if not

00:20:24.700 trillions of dollars to develop domestically. I mean, at least try to make them steal the 0.97

00:20:28.660 technology through IP theft, at least make them put a little effort in, but we're just handing

00:20:33.560 it to them easily. It's absolutely wild. We did not learn our lessons from COVID, which was not

00:20:39.240 just gain of function, it was biological warfare. If we are now handing them the technological

00:20:43.940 capabilities to become even more of a lethal superpower, all the while increasing their

00:20:50.820 rhetoric to become overtly hostile and essentially telling the United States that we are now second

00:20:57.360 in command. Strategic stability is a complete, I mean, euphemism is too light a term. That's code

00:21:04.500 for telling the United States, China is in charge, Xi Jinping is in charge, and you are going to do

00:21:11.600 what we say. Natalie Winters, magnificent. Where do people go to get all your writing,

00:21:17.680 your substack, social media, where they go on this topic, ma'am? Natalie G. Winters on all

00:21:23.520 platform check out the sub stack we'll have some china investigations coming out shortly having to

00:21:28.600 do with chinese researchers going into usda laboratories because that sounds like a good idea

00:21:33.820 sounds like a great idea let's set up a board stability for you yeah there's stability that's

00:21:42.880 constructive thank you ma'am thank you appreciate you the great uh one of the greatest parts of the

00:21:50.140 uh the buckley biography is about william f buckley as the the fire-breathing anti-communist

00:21:57.920 uh before even nixon and before ronald reagan let's go ahead i think i got a clip from the

00:22:02.980 other day i was going off on this i'm going to bring him sam tennenhouse you if you buy into

00:22:08.160 construction constructive strategic stability you've bought into their premise that they are

00:22:15.140 a worthy and equal partner, and they are not a worthy and equal partner. They are a murderous

00:22:21.800 dictatorship run by a group of thugs. How do I know that? I can see what they've done to our 1.00

00:22:28.360 own beloved country. Unrestricted warfare. They came up with this in the 1990s. Why was that?

00:22:35.260 Because, remember, don't get the history wrong here. McCarthy had it right.

00:22:41.320 Marshall and the group of communists in the State Department

00:22:46.040 turned the country over to a group of bandits. 0.77

00:22:50.460 And we abandoned the Chinese that had fought with us, 1.00

00:22:54.580 and they were not perfect, trust me. 1.00

00:22:56.620 They're double-dealing us all the time and stealing all the time.

00:22:59.180 They were far from perfect.

00:23:02.080 Sam Tannenhaus, this is when you talk about Winnie F. Buckley,

00:23:05.260 what gets lost, unless you read your biography,

00:23:07.760 and particularly lost by the modern guys running the Buckley National Review and all that,

00:23:14.780 is the fierce anti-communism of William F. Buckley.

00:23:18.060 He was a very devout Catholic.

00:23:20.160 He understood communism to its core.

00:23:23.720 And he particularly understood the threat of what happened when we turned over China,

00:23:28.520 our great ally in World War II, to Mao Zedong and the Chinese Communist Party, sir.

00:23:33.360 you know steve uh after uh the president's trip to china i went back and my book is very long

00:23:40.500 but i want to go back it's out in paperback now and i wanted or it will be in a few weeks

00:23:44.560 i wanted to refresh my memory of the famous nixon goes to china opening in 1971 because

00:23:52.660 bill buckley was there and at first he didn't want to go because he absolutely opposed the idea

00:23:59.140 that the United States would recognize this regime, and this is, it still mouths a tongue

00:24:06.060 in his last years, as, as you say, an equal partner or a humane civilization. And then he

00:24:12.480 realized, no, he should go because he should report on what's going on. Nobody else is going

00:24:18.380 to do it. So he was one of three columnists in the entire country who was invited to go

00:24:24.540 with the president. There were President Nixon. There were, you know, two big planes they sent

00:24:29.360 over with very famous people, Walter Cronkite and Barbara Walters and Theodore White, who'd written

00:24:35.300 about China. And Buckley was in the banquet hall in Beijing when he saw Nixon, this gigantic

00:24:42.800 banquet hall. And Nixon is at the far end, seated at a table with Zhou Enlai and other Chinese 0.79

00:24:50.740 leaders. Remember Mao is sick and dying and he's off in his own house. And Buckley, because he was

00:24:57.160 a sailor, brought along high-powered lenses, you know, binoculars, so he could see from a distance

00:25:06.700 where nobody else could really see in the room. And there he is. He holds them up. I have this

00:25:11.280 in the book. And he peers through the lenses and he describes Nixon making the rounds of the tables

00:25:19.200 greeting in this very obsequious way all these Chinese communists that Buckley had been convinced 0.72

00:25:26.800 from a very early age were nothing but murderers. And he said it became very famous left and right

00:25:34.700 when Buckley said this. He said watching Nixon in this room with Zhou Enlai and the Chinese 0.57

00:25:42.460 Communist Party, he said it was like seeing the prosecutor in the Nuremberg trials go over and

00:25:50.240 shake the hand of Joseph Goebbels. It was like the biggest betrayal. Why? No one ever said during

00:25:59.680 the McCarthy years, which you know a lot about, and you and I are both interested in, no one ever

00:26:04.820 said who lost russia no one ever said who belongs to the russia lobby because we knew who they were

00:26:13.040 but we did say who lost china and who is part of a pro right nationalist chinese anti-communist

00:26:21.120 lobby and that was i want to make sure i want to make people get the history is that the entire

00:26:26.660 you know all everything in hollywood all of this it really got revved up in the 50s the whole

00:26:32.960 rise of mccarthy was about who lost china who lost china theodore white was the guy at time

00:26:40.380 magazine that wrote the book what thunder out of china he was kind of taken he was one of those

00:26:44.880 guys that was sucked into the the romance of the aggro you know the aggro the agrarian populist

00:26:51.360 that uh that mal setong and chou online were going to represent which was a basically a bald-faced

00:26:57.180 lie general remember who called him out remember who called him out of time magazine was whitaker

00:27:02.220 Chambers. Subject to my previous biography. He was the one at Time Magazine who was in the home

00:27:10.360 office. And Teddy White was a brilliant reporter. Everybody got this. He's a fantastic on the ground

00:27:15.780 reporter, great narrative writer. But the cables come in and Chambers goes to Henry Luce, the

00:27:23.840 publisher of Time Magazine, who'd also lived in China as a missionary when he was a kid, spoke

00:27:29.520 Chinese. And Chambers said, they're not getting it right here. This is not an agrarian revolution.

00:27:35.620 It's a communist takeover. And Chambers was absolutely reviled for that, as you know.

00:27:41.100 And when he was pushed out of Time magazine during the Notorious His case, which you and I have

00:27:45.740 discussed at great length, part of it did have to do with China. I'll add one other thing, Steve,

00:27:50.160 you may remember from the book. When Bill Buckley got very close to Joe McCarthy, much closer,

00:27:55.740 hang on sam i want to take a commercial break and give you plenty of runway for this because

00:28:01.180 i do not want to miss sam tannenhaus telling one of these great stories about william f buckley

00:28:07.300 and uh and uh joe mccarthy gonna take a short commercial break the book which uh this audience

00:28:14.200 drove and drove in hardcover is now going to be out i think june 2nd in paperback

00:28:20.480 Short commercial break.

00:28:21.380 Back in a moment.

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00:29:46.620 okay uh we're getting word that the three million or the one to three million however you count it

00:29:55.800 the last time this may be even bigger just absolutely incredible um great job over there

00:30:01.000 and many of the folks that are associated with our um prohibiting sharia law prop 10 in texas

00:30:08.540 are over there karen sigmund's over there peter mckelvaney glenn beck spoke

00:30:11.880 for Tommy Robbins and the team, just absolutely stunning.

00:30:15.740 We'll try to do some aerial shots later.

00:30:17.800 Sam Tannehouse, first things first, the book, which our audience loved,

00:30:21.200 and I'm proud to say, I think, how many reprintings did you have

00:30:27.240 in the hardback edition?

00:30:29.120 Well, it was reprinted four times after the initial printings.

00:30:35.300 That's a total of five printings, but at least two of those

00:30:38.540 came after you and I talked, at least two of them.

00:30:41.580 it might even have been three, came after, you know, we had our conversations about the book.

00:30:47.560 The feedback we got was amazing. So the book's coming out in paperback when?

00:30:53.200 June 2nd, you know, you can go on Amazon and order it now, or, you know, the hardcover's still there,

00:30:59.560 the audio book, the Kindle, all the different platforms are there. You see all the reviews

00:31:05.000 and all the best, you know, end of year lists. We stopped counting them after a while. I told

00:31:09.580 somebody i think i wrote the only book that in the same week had a war room podcast and the new

00:31:17.140 yorker magazine chose it as one of the 12 best non-fiction books of the year i think i may be

00:31:22.060 the only guy who can say that that that you definitely don't get to do that life is big

00:31:27.720 you can come at it from a lot of different ways do we want to talk about this joe mccarthy story

00:31:32.140 yeah yeah but here's here's the reason because the other day in in uh in the opening or at the

00:31:38.280 toast that night chairman she said uh you know we're a 5 000 year old civilization and we want

00:31:45.880 to you know congratulate you on your 250th birthday little kids uh it was a shot across the bow and i

00:31:53.520 tell people you can't understand today unless you really understand yesterday and particularly the

00:32:00.120 situation geopolitically and particularly with china we have a very special and unique relationship

00:32:05.840 with china to understand that obviously got to go back to the you know sun yet senate all that but

00:32:12.080 really the world war ii still well what happened with the with the with the nationalists the com

00:32:18.120 the rise of communism and essentially how we turn the country over to them and what an impact that

00:32:23.340 had that was one of the biggest motive forces for what is the modern conservative movement came out

00:32:30.140 of William F. Buckley, this virulent anti-communism, yes, limited government, all that became the

00:32:35.900 three-legged stool of President Reagan, but it was a virulent anti-communism driven by people

00:32:43.240 like William F. Buckley. Sir, the floor is yours. Well, what you remind me of, Steve, you mentioned

00:32:49.800 it before, is that when Joe McCarthy made his famous speeches and did the hearings, a lot of

00:32:56.960 it was about China. There was more on China than there was in the Soviet Union. We kind of knew who

00:33:01.180 the Soviet Union was. China, as you say, we had a special relationship with. No one understood how

00:33:06.520 we lost it. That was the verb that was used. How did we lose China? And State Department had put

00:33:12.820 out a big white paper, thousand pages long, explaining how it happened. And then McCarthy

00:33:18.380 and companies said, well, maybe it's simpler than that. Maybe we've got people who were selling the

00:33:22.700 country out. And that's debatable. You can go at it either way. But here's an interesting thing.

00:33:27.140 So at the time when Joe McCarthy was being taken down, right, so he rises in 1950 with the Korean

00:33:33.880 War. Suddenly the arguments he's making are resonating with the public. Then, of course,

00:33:38.840 the Senate comes after him. Media come after him. Buckley, listeners, viewers should know,

00:33:44.940 the reason Bill Buckley started National Review, the old National Review in 1955,

00:33:49.820 was because he thought the right had not made a persuasive, articulate, mass argument for Joe

00:33:58.180 McCarthy. That's the basis of that magazine. So he hasn't started the magazine yet, but he's written

00:34:03.960 a book defending McCarthy, explaining what he thinks the hearings are really about. And then

00:34:08.640 McCarthy had gotten sick. You know, he drank too much. He's in a hospital and he's in bad shape.

00:34:13.960 Then they finally let him out. He goes back home and Buckley goes to see him. This was all

00:34:19.720 knew this. No one ever knew this until Buckley told me this. He was summoned to Joe McCarthy's

00:34:25.800 little house in Capitol Hill. Not a big, gorgeous one like you all have. I've been there. Small

00:34:30.740 little house, Capitol Hill, where he lives with his wife, Jean McCarthy. And Buckley's there. He's

00:34:35.800 been traveling all day. Buckley's only in his late 20s, you have to realize. He's already famous.

00:34:40.760 And Buckley goes to his house, and McCarthy says, look, I need you to write a speech for me,

00:34:45.640 because I'm being called a kind of illiterate hatchet man, and I want a Bill Buckley-style

00:34:53.820 speech that I can present on the floor of the Senate. So Buckley says, yeah, I can do that.

00:34:59.300 I've got my typewriter. Buckley typed 100 words a minute back in the days when you couldn't make

00:35:04.120 mistakes. It's not like the computers where we could flub everything. And Buckley's up there

00:35:08.280 working, and suddenly he's exhausted. He's just been crisscrossing the country, making the case

00:35:15.380 for McCarthy. Now he's just about dead on his feet, said, Joe, I have to go to sleep. McCarthy

00:35:21.080 says, sure, go ahead, and we'll work out it in the morning. Well, then it seems like 15 minutes

00:35:27.320 have gone by. There's a knock on Buckley's door. He's got to get up. He goes out. He sees McCarthy

00:35:34.800 in his bathrobe, Steve, his bathrobe on the floor with a huge map of mainland China in front of him. 0.96

00:35:44.440 So this is the guy, Joe McCarthy, who's supposed to be a total ignoramus who's just calling people names. 0.81

00:35:52.880 And Buckley sees McCarthy's got his finger. 0.63

00:35:56.300 He's moving on the map.

00:35:58.200 And Buckley said, what are you doing?

00:36:00.220 And McCarthy said, well, I'm tracing the train routes to see how China, red China, might invade Taiwan. 0.63

00:36:09.400 And I'm so excited. 0.71

00:36:11.120 I had to have you come out and see it.

00:36:13.840 Buckley looks up at the clock.

00:36:15.600 It's 1.30 in the morning. 1.00

00:36:17.640 And he said, you son of a bitch. 1.00

00:36:20.900 I'm supposed to be helping you write this speech. 1.00

00:36:22.860 And you wake me up in the middle of the night to see this thing.

00:36:25.860 And then Joe says, I got so excited.

00:36:28.420 I had to show you.

00:36:29.580 Next morning, Buckley gets up.

00:36:31.580 They finish the speech.

00:36:32.660 It's published in five full pages in the U.S. News and World Report.

00:36:36.140 give me that one more time about uh the the beginning of national review because i do believe

00:36:44.740 some of the people national review forget their origins and it wasn't that one of the reasons

00:36:49.280 buckley was attractive the principal reason is that joe mccarthy was the fiercest of the

00:36:55.840 anti-communist to the point of calling out what was happening in inside the u.s government that

00:37:01.360 we know when the Venona files were released, the KGB files were released in the 1990s. Not

00:37:07.540 everything, but a lot of what Joe McCarthy was saying happened to be true. Well, you know,

00:37:12.820 one of the interesting things, and we've talked about this before, is the Catholicism too. You

00:37:18.200 know, that's where the most powerful anti-communist argument came, and we know why,

00:37:22.840 because they were imprisoning priests or doing worse to the clergy in Eastern Europe. And Buckley

00:37:28.640 once said when he was in college, when he was at Yale, he said the persecution of the clergy by the

00:37:36.000 communists in Central and Eastern Europe was the biggest disaster that had happened since the rise

00:37:42.160 of the Nazi party in Germany. So that's where you got this phrase communazism, right? That the two

00:37:47.800 were really kind of the same. So Buckley is really a dedicated anti-communist. A lot of people were

00:37:54.540 anti-communists back then. The problem is they didn't always make the case in a way that your

00:37:59.660 average person understood. So one of Buckley's colleagues, really brilliant man, some of your

00:38:05.340 viewers will know him, James Burnham, big thinker, big writer. He was kind of the august theoretical

00:38:11.820 presence at National Review. Buckley's gathering people around him when McCarthy's going down.

00:38:17.100 He's trying to figure out how do we get a foothold so we can control the debate.

00:38:21.020 everybody that sees that we enter it we and the right enter it to left to to late because the

00:38:28.980 left has taken it over so the left has got a word like mccarthyism and the right has to fight back

00:38:34.440 against it right so they're traveling around talking to people figuring out what to do

00:38:38.720 james burnham very brilliant man first in his class at princeton professor of philosophy at nyu

00:38:45.520 in New York, advisor to the CIA early on, is traveling across the country and he starts

00:38:52.160 meeting very ordinary people. And they say things to him like, why don't we just kick the

00:38:57.720 communists the hell out? What is all this other stuff we're doing? Why don't we just say who they 0.98

00:39:04.720 are, why we have to get rid of them? And Buckley's mentor at Yale, another brilliant man named

00:39:10.660 Wilmore Kendall, who's from Oklahoma. A lot of these guys are from the heartland. Burnham from

00:39:15.440 Illinois, Kendall from Oklahoma. He says to Buckley, when McCarthy arises, because Buckley

00:39:21.340 was still in college then, when McCarthy made his first famous speech in Wheeling, West Virginia,

00:39:26.940 Kendall said, look how he excites people. It doesn't matter if he gets the numbers and the

00:39:34.360 facts wrong. He's on to the bigger truth. He knows what this country wants and how it works.

00:39:42.060 And what it wants is a kind of flushing out of all of this stuff.

00:39:47.340 And if you can't get a voice, a person the public will listen to, it'll never happen.

00:39:54.200 And so Kendall kind of brought Buckley around, made him see McCarthy might be the guy.

00:39:59.980 So Bill got very attached to him.

00:40:02.340 And then later, during the hearings that brought McCarthy down, I mentioned before, Buckley

00:40:09.240 saw they were powerless to stop it, that he could make the cases as well as he might. He couldn't

00:40:15.580 get into the mainstream press to do it. He could give speeches and lectures. He gave a speech in

00:40:20.480 New York City. A thousand people showed up. They had to bring them in by buses to hear him.

00:40:25.300 The 28-year-old Buckley defending McCarthy. It was totally unheard of to do this, except for the

00:40:31.520 public. The public got it. So after that happened, Buckley and another one of his allies, a guy named

00:40:38.440 Willi Schlamm, Austrian Jew, super anti-communist, very early on saw that Stalin was a danger,

00:40:45.800 just like Hitler, said to Buckley, let's start a magazine. You've got the genius and the charisma

00:40:52.740 to do it. I've got the experience. We'll bring people together. We'll start a magazine that

00:40:58.300 will make the case for our side. That's 1955, you know, just a little over 70 years ago.

00:41:05.300 why should people we got a couple of minutes uh this book coming on paperback with all the

00:41:12.040 pressures on people's time what is the case for getting this paper if you haven't gotten

00:41:17.220 the hardback edition what is the case for getting this book and reading this book this summer

00:41:21.040 well william f buckley jr was the greatest conservative of the 20th century the people

00:41:30.040 you think of as giants, Ronald Reagan, Barry Goldwater, they were Buckley's pupils, right?

00:41:39.380 He has a great exchange with me I have in the book. Now people know it pretty well. When I said

00:41:44.000 to him, how did you get to Goldwater and Reagan? And Buckley said, I didn't get to them. They came

00:41:51.180 to me because he had the firepower. He had the arguments. He had the social cachet,

00:41:59.840 the class. Yeah, he's a Catholic guy, but he's a rich guy. The Buckleys were often compared to

00:42:04.480 the Kennedys, and that's a helpful way to understand them. They were the conservative

00:42:08.340 Kennedys. Big family, beautiful looking people, all go off to the Ivy League, family money that

00:42:14.100 they've done, made on their own, with a mission to try to do something for the country. Buckley

00:42:19.940 gave his life to try to lead a conservative revolution in this country. And I leave it up

00:42:26.680 to readers to decide whether they think he succeeded. That's really what the book is about.

00:42:32.340 So I just take you through the life, show you every step of the way. He was a wunderkind. He

00:42:36.900 was a genius, an intellectual prodigy, as a very young guy, making the case for Charles Lindbergh,

00:42:42.420 his first political hero. And then all the way through, you go through McCarthy. I take you

00:42:48.280 through Goldwater, take you through Reagan, all the way up through the disaster of the Iraq war.

00:42:53.240 and you see bill buckley trying to guide trying to shape trying to create uh protégés and

00:43:00.860 disciples trying to build a movement from the inside out it's and i just think it's a great

00:43:06.920 life it's a great american life what are people what's the website and what's your social media

00:43:12.660 where do people go yeah well i don't i don't do social media i'm an old guy but sam tannenhouse.com

00:43:18.800 is my website. Anybody can contact me through the email page there. And people do it because I hear

00:43:27.200 from your readers, Steve. I get some very interesting suggestions and thoughts from

00:43:33.720 your audience. So anybody who wants to write to me can. The book is available there. But it's

00:43:39.520 You know, it's mainly, you know, Amazon.

00:43:42.040 Sam Tannenhaus.

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00:45:19.300 War Room.

00:45:20.240 Here's your host, Stephen K. Banff.

00:45:22.720 go to amazon to get the paperback or and you'll get a uh a reading experience like no other it's

00:45:31.340 really quite amazing as you can tell sam knows how to tell a story um or sam tannenhouse.com

00:45:39.020 go check it out today the um the modern institutional catholic church ben harnwell

00:45:47.240 has signed a secret deal with the chinese communist party we still don't know what it is

00:45:50.960 um your thoughts on and how is it viewed from both rome and europe president trump's trip

00:45:57.820 how it played out and particularly i think president trump be the first to admit he really

00:46:02.400 didn't get the backing of the ccp in this trying to bring this around war truly i mean they gave

00:46:07.800 some happy talk but real backing to bring this war to an end your thoughts sir well most of the

00:46:13.720 european press was quite interested in the trip to beijing before it took place specifically on

00:46:20.340 the fact that president trump was taking all of these the america's most important businessmen

00:46:27.180 let's put it like that um donors business stroke businessmen call it what you will um that was

00:46:33.860 what really captured the european interest before the trip as midway through the trip

00:46:41.580 and 24 hours after the trip the coverage really moved away from that aspect of it and basically

00:46:49.260 said that president trump didn't really come out with very much at all and there was a sort of

00:46:54.100 bemusement as to why president trump had in fact gone over taking this massive delegation with him

00:47:02.220 presumably to try and generate some sort of foreign direct investment um and there's a certain

00:47:08.200 perplexity if i might put it like that as and you should have you intimated this earlier on

00:47:14.080 in the show as to you know the whole thing from the from the MAGA perspective as seen from the

00:47:20.220 Europeans the whole thing from the America first perspective as understood by the Europeans is that

00:47:26.280 China is supposed to be this existential threat and the main upshot of the president's visit there

00:47:34.960 is one of normalization so that the Europeans can't quite understand what are they supposed

00:47:40.640 to think the americans are thinking right now with regards to china there's not a particularly

00:47:46.340 firm narrative for them to understand either to support it or to oppose it it's um you know the

00:47:52.540 europeans are thinking well we thought america really was looking at china as this existential

00:47:58.500 threat but there's no evidence of that um from from the messaging of president trump's visit

00:48:05.100 to china what about what about this facilities trap where they're basically telling us to our

00:48:11.020 face you're the you're the hegemon but you're the declining power we're the rising power and 0.98

00:48:16.160 constructive strategic stability essentially means don't do anything stupid as you decline 0.98

00:48:22.320 because that'll lead to a catastrophic war just be good boys and girls and uh let us take the lead 0.96

00:48:27.560 sir. Well, I'd say to that, and this is sort of, America's no stranger to this, on the world stage,

00:48:35.640 on the international stage, when it comes to messaging, you're half messaging to the people

00:48:40.700 you're talking to, and you're half messaging to your own domestic audience as well. I think

00:48:45.760 President Xi is making a signal there, as much as he is doing to President Trump and the Trump

00:48:51.940 administration. He's signaling to his own people, look how far China has come in the last 25 years.

00:49:00.400 Look how far this country has come. And from the Chinese perspective, America is the declining 0.61

00:49:08.780 power. There are a number of metrics you can look at that. The unsustainable national debt

00:49:12.920 would be one of them. A whole host of issues. The fentanyl crisis. The fact that America is

00:49:21.440 burning through its military munitions uh right now china is just sitting there looking and 0.90

00:49:28.500 thinking my god we don't need to do anything to to hit this declining power they're going to do it 0.85

00:49:34.540 all to themselves so he's making that argument to his own people because that reinforces his regime 0.99

00:49:40.240 stability arguments in beijing uh that is to say the ccp ben harnwell where do they get

00:49:47.740 your beady-eyed analysis over the weekend before we get you back here on monday 0.83

00:49:50.960 thanks steve get at harnwell my surname uh all these provocations are on the top of my feed

00:49:59.120 waiting for you thanks steve it's it's it's cynical beady-eyed uh analysis and we'll do

00:50:04.000 something on the national review on monday then hardwell myself great perfect thank you sir

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00:53:02.540 I'm heading to the biggest rally I've done so far as governor today, and the protesters are already there, everybody.

00:53:08.620 So we'll see you Monday.

00:53:11.160 I'll be up on Getter all weekend.

00:53:13.160 We'll see you back here at 10 a.m. Eastern Daylight Time Monday morning.

00:53:16.240 everyone's focused on how the conflict in the middle east is raising oil prices but there's

00:53:22.960 another grim reality to this contention oil isn't the only resource being constrained about one

00:53:29.960 third of global fertilizer trade happens through this region and with spring planting season on

00:53:36.080 top of us american farmers are sounding the alarm with some saying they can't afford to plant their

00:53:41.180 fields. When one piece of the supply chain gets hit this hard, you know what comes next. Higher

00:53:47.060 food prices, reduced availability, maybe even panic buying. That's why having an emergency

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00:54:41.280 Do it today.

00:54:42.520 Go check it out.

Bannon's War Room - May 16, 2026

Episode 5378： The Threat Of The CCP And Underestimating Their Power

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