Bannon's War Room - Episode 5458： The Factory Floor Is The Front Line： Justin Fulcher On America’s New Arms Race

00:00:00.000 This is the primal scream of a dying regime.

00:00:07.700 Pray for our enemies, because we're going medieval on these people.

00:00:12.940 I got a free shot at all these networks lying about the people.

00:00:17.200 The people have had a belly full of it.

00:00:19.120 I know you don't like hearing that.

00:00:20.560 I know you try to do everything in the world to stop that,

00:00:22.300 but you're not going to stop it.

00:00:23.240 It's going to happen.

00:00:24.500 And where do people like that go to share the big lie?

00:00:27.900 Mega Media.

00:00:28.800 I wish in my soul, I wish that any of these people had a conscience.

00:00:34.680 Ask yourself, what is my task and what is my purpose?

00:00:38.440 If that answer is to save my country, this country will be saved.

00:00:44.800 War Room. Here's your host, Stephen K. Vann.

00:00:52.340 You're in the War Room.

00:00:53.580 it's natalie winters hosting today friday june 19th in the year of our lord 2026 we've got a bit

00:01:00.620 of a special show for you today i'm honored to be able to do this for you guys i know there's been

00:01:05.240 so much with iran so much it's hard to follow so i wanted to sort of take a step back bring on not

00:01:11.740 just a new guest but focus on something that i think this audience should both be very interested

00:01:17.200 in but also very very passionate and i think find a lot of hope in which is where i think we have

00:01:23.400 found the kind of new American fighting spirit, which is in the kind of defense tech movement,

00:01:28.200 this new movement to really re-industrialize the defense industrial base and actually make

00:01:33.400 American national security, our weapons systems, our procurement, take your pick, really actually

00:01:40.100 efficient and actually capable of defending this country. And I'm honored to have on, I think,

00:01:45.560 it's fair to say one of the leaders of this movement, Justin Fulcher, who was one of the

00:01:50.460 founders of Doge. You were there since day one, frankly, a little even before. You also were at

00:01:57.380 basically the highest levels of the Pentagon. You were a senior advisor to Secretary Hegseth

00:02:01.400 for a while there through some of the craziest times. You saw a lot. You learned a lot.

00:02:06.640 Before we get into everything I was kind of talking about, the really interesting stuff

00:02:10.080 that I think the audience is really going to enjoy hearing about, give us just a little bit

00:02:13.900 about your background, how you ended up in two very powerful and kind of unique worlds.

00:02:20.460 Well, I've had somewhat of a unique career.

00:02:23.000 I started as a tech entrepreneur and built a telehealth company that helped bring health care to millions of people's lives across the globe.

00:02:30.860 That took me all across Asia, places like Singapore, Indonesia, Thailand, Taiwan.

00:02:36.660 And that gave me really a front row seat to how these different countries think about national power, economic development and long term strategy.

00:02:44.680 More recently, as you mentioned, I had the opportunity to serve as a senior advisor to Secretary of War Pete Hegseth at the Pentagon.

00:02:52.500 I was able to work on issues around readiness, technology, and really revitalizing the defense industrial base.

00:02:59.740 Before that, I was an early member of DOGE, where, you know, government reform efforts were a huge priority.

00:03:05.260 But honestly, I think these jobs matter a little bit less than the lessons learned, which, you know, over the past decade or so,

00:03:11.820 I've spent years watching how different countries operate, how they compete on national scale.

00:03:16.580 And ultimately, that's what I've become obsessed with.

00:03:19.400 You know, why do some societies retain that ability to build, execute and win and while others slowly lose it?

00:03:25.860 Well, I think you're selling yourself short.

00:03:27.860 I remember reading all the legacy media meltdown about the doge cuts, how, you know, you guys were all destroying the government.

00:03:34.460 But if you really looked at the numbers, it really was mainly the VA where they were really getting just the number of personnel actually down.

00:03:41.240 Those are the cuts that actually were able to materialize through their legal stuff.

00:03:45.360 And that was, of course, the at least one of the Doge kind of efforts that you directly led.

00:03:49.580 We're going to we're going to get into that.

00:03:50.700 But I want to focus first on what you sort of saw when you were at the Pentagon that made you realize now.

00:03:56.460 I know you're focusing more on the kind of the defense space, but what the current state, the state of affairs are with our defense industrial base, you know, the weapon shortages or stockpiles and how you kind of came to the conclusion.

00:04:09.880 and we've seen it with what the Trump administration is doing, that, you know, that's in need of some

00:04:14.040 serious reform, picking up the pace, making it more up to par with the challenges that this

00:04:18.400 country is facing. Right. And I think, you know, one of the most stark things I witnessed after

00:04:24.180 President Trump took office was the real disconnect between military power on paper, but the back end

00:04:31.160 industrial might that actually supports that. And I think, you know, it's obvious that America has

00:04:36.880 the absolute best warfighters, the best military in the world, the best innovators, and overall

00:04:41.820 incredible capabilities. But one of the things that, you know, we stopped doing as a country

00:04:46.880 was really focusing on producing those wartime quantities of weapons, munitions,

00:04:52.360 and other critical systems. And all that matters because, you know, when you think about deterrence

00:04:57.580 and, you know, reestablishing American power on the world stage, it's not just about, you know,

00:05:03.100 what does the arsenal look like on day one of a conflict, but really how much can you produce on

00:05:08.060 day 30, day 180, or even year two or three of a conflict? And I think, you know, what really

00:05:15.520 worried me the most was not that America lost its ability to innovate. I think ultimately we lead

00:05:20.940 the world in that bar none. But what concerned me is that we're becoming really a country that can

00:05:27.100 invent brilliant things, but struggled to produce them at scale. And that's a dangerous place for a

00:05:31.480 great power to be. Talk about some of those timeline deficits. How did a country as powerful,

00:05:36.980 as innovative as ours, get in a position where even the most rudimentary things,

00:05:42.400 you know, we either can't produce ourselves or it takes way too long that's even acceptable?

00:05:49.320 Yeah, I think as in many things, it happened slowly and then very suddenly. After the Cold

00:05:55.500 War, America convinced itself that industrial capacity and might was not that important. We

00:06:02.420 believed in just-in-time supply chains, globalization, efficiency, and we prioritized

00:06:08.420 quarterly market cycles over actually having a resilient defense industrial base. And that

00:06:15.360 worked in a world where the U.S. was frankly an uncontested superpower and our adversaries

00:06:20.300 weren't actively trying to undermine and sabotage the global supply chain and our supply chain.

00:06:25.500 But China took a very different approach there. China understood that factories are power, shipyards are power, energy is power, minerals, manufacturing depth, all of those are core aspects of national power.

00:06:38.440 Meanwhile, in previous administrations, we let the entire industrial ecosystem atrophy, which was terrible.

00:06:44.240 You know, we put machine tools, casting, forging, energetics, all of those critical capabilities aside.

00:06:51.420 And, you know, we really made skilled trades something that were low class and not not important, which today that couldn't be further from the truth.

00:07:01.140 When you think about the tragedy and how we outsource so much of the physical foundation that really undermined American industrial power.

00:07:10.240 it's encouraging to see what Secretary Hegseth and Deputy Secretary Feinberg have done to take

00:07:16.800 that arsenal of freedom and really actualize that and implement that moving forward.

00:07:21.780 And trying to understand, you know, whether it's the military industrial complex, however you want

00:07:26.520 to classify it. I know you saw that firsthand, both running DOJ at DOD, but also being, you know,

00:07:32.660 Secretary Hegseth, essentially number two. But what exactly is it that causes that? Is it the

00:07:39.280 consolidation of all of these companies into one, these defense primes, they just become,

00:07:43.920 you know, accepting of really low standards. What actually is the animating factor,

00:07:49.060 the driver behind that really serious existential problem?

00:07:53.800 Well, I think the monopsony structure created these cartel-like incentives, which, you know,

00:08:00.420 in defense world, there's this famous story of this concept called the Last Supper. And so imagine

00:08:06.180 this. The Cold War ends. The Soviet Union collapses. America is the uncontested superpower.

00:08:12.260 And Washington, and frankly, the Pentagon, looks at the defense industry and basically says,

00:08:17.060 look, we don't need a defense industrial base this large anymore. And so the CEOs of the major

00:08:23.380 defense companies were invited by the Secretary of Defense at the time to a dinner at the Pentagon.

00:08:29.860 And the message was clear. Budgets are going down. Consolidation is going to happen. And a lot of

00:08:35.280 companies at this table aren't going to exist over the next few years. And so that was the

00:08:39.720 beginning of a very different era. These companies merged, a bunch of competitors and competition

00:08:45.360 vanished. And what, you know, at the time was a very broad and deep defense industrial base

00:08:51.220 got hollowed out. And so, you know, the incentives changed here. And when only a few of the largest

00:08:57.460 defense primes can actually compete for a lot of these big programs, and the government knows it

00:09:03.380 can't afford to lose that, the system stops acting like a market-driven economy and a market-driven

00:09:08.520 system because there's less pressure, there's less need to innovate, and there's less need to deliver

00:09:13.280 quickly at scale. And so I think ultimately, the answer is pro-competition, pro-adaptation,

00:09:20.660 pro-production. And we need the primes, but we also need to open the gates to these new builders,

00:09:26.280 defense tech startups, drone companies, machine shops, software firms, all of these companies

00:09:31.360 solving the hard problems. I think we've seen a lot of this sort of come to the forefront

00:09:36.120 with regard to what's going on in Iran, even in Ukraine, right? These articles talking about the

00:09:42.140 depletion or just at least a concerning rate, not that it's necessarily at a, you know, five alarm

00:09:47.220 fire position right now, but with some of our weapons, ammunition, munitions, all those kinds

00:09:53.400 of things. I want to get granular, though. Take the Tomahawk, for example, right? There's been a

00:09:58.240 lot of discussion about that in the context of what's going on in Iran. Walk us through,

00:10:04.300 like actually put us in the room, everything that you can, how that actually like gets made,

00:10:10.760 why there are so many delays, because the time it takes to make things that are, you know,

00:10:15.300 shot off in seconds or minutes, it's really quite staggering.

00:10:19.740 Right. And I think, you know, the Tomahawk problem is a perfect example of that difference between,

00:10:25.020 operational needs and operational speed versus industrial capacity and might and the speed of

00:10:32.020 that. Because as you said, a commander can launch a tomahawk in seconds or minutes, but replacing

00:10:37.800 that missile is not just a matter of pushing a button like an Amazon order. It can take years

00:10:43.640 to replenish those stockpiles. And so when you look at what actually makes and compose a tomahawk,

00:10:50.040 You need rocket motors, guidance systems, energetics, all of these different suppliers.

00:10:55.300 And if there's delays in any parts of that supply chain, it compounds and it can take something that, you know, maybe historically with a robust defense industrial base would take something like, you know, weeks to months to produce.

00:11:07.720 It can end up causing these like multi-year delays.

00:11:10.920 And so when you think about the Tomahawk issue, I really think that's a warning light that's flashing for the entire defense industry.

00:11:18.600 And, you know, thankfully, you know, President Trump and Secretary Hegseth have heeded that warning and are massively investing to really solve that problem, but also the second and third order effects that come from that.

00:11:29.460 The numbers really are staggering. I'm curious, you know, these don't just exist in a vacuum, really only matter so much so as it's compared to our existential threat, which is, of course, the Chinese Communist Party and their ability to build, which they certainly outpace us. 0.93

00:11:44.900 But the actual numbers, when you really get into it, are quite concerning.

00:11:48.860 Can you sort of compare, contrast how we stack up against China when it comes to the manufacturing of these kinds of items?

00:11:56.580 Well, in some instances, that contrast is pretty brutal.

00:12:01.100 China, for example, isn't just building a navy.

00:12:04.740 They're building really the entire industrial system behind that to try to dominate shipping writ large.

00:12:10.620 If you think about China and commercial shipbuilding, they commanded over 50% of the entire market share over the past couple of years.

00:12:20.060 And when you think about comparing that to the United States, which was producing roughly a fraction of a percent compared to China.

00:12:27.620 And there's a very powerful example of a Chinese state-owned shipbuilding company, CSSC, which in one year alone produced more ships than the entire U.S. shipping industry has since World War II.

00:12:43.240 I mean, the numbers are absolutely staggering.

00:12:45.760 But that doesn't mean that China would automatically win a war here.

00:12:49.780 The U.S. still has enormous, enormous advantages from our allies, our innovation, of course, our men and women in uniform, and everybody who supports them.

00:13:00.760 And so while the industrial gap is real, there's a ton of work that's going into actually addressing some of those core challenges.

00:13:08.180 Do you think that lag in production capabilities, China's ability to sort of take over and really outpace us in some fields is almost by design? 0.80

00:13:15.600 That's what the Chinese Communist Party has wanted for a very long time. 0.80

00:13:18.360 Oh, 100%. I mean, China has absolutely methodically attacked the supply chain. They've done specific things around rare earth, some of the refining and other components like drone motors, actuators and others to really create a global chokehold on these products. And they're doing this in a systematic and very methodical way.

00:13:38.920 i'm curious just preview we got about a minute before we have to jump to break one of those

00:13:44.860 areas where the chinese seem to really be honing in on is the cheap drones obviously america

00:13:50.260 dominates in these super cool really expensive interesting looking things i've seen some of

00:13:56.820 them they're quite cool but these cheap drones you have also seen it obviously in iran and ukraine

00:14:01.420 have really become sort of the new thing in at least kinetic conflict just real quick before

00:14:07.600 we bounce. Give us kind of the landscape there. What is that evolution of the battlefield? What

00:14:13.340 is that looking like? Well, Ukraine changed that mental model. And China has long known this,

00:14:18.880 which is why with DJI and other companies there, they've really subsidized the consumer drone

00:14:24.080 market, which gave them an advantage. Now, drone dominance at the Pentagon is really addressing

00:14:29.000 that and moving out quickly. DIU is doing a great job, Owen West over there. But ultimately,

00:14:33.640 China has taken a strategic approach here, and the U.S. is playing a bit of catch-up,

00:14:37.420 but moving very quickly. All right. Hang with us through the break. I know,

00:14:41.400 I believe you helped author that drone dominance initiative, and now here you are talking about

00:14:47.140 on War Room. So we're honored to have someone who has been behind the scenes on a lot of these very

00:14:51.700 important reforms here in the War Room on Juneteenth. How about that? We'll be right back

00:14:57.840 after this short break.

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00:17:14.640 War Room.

00:17:15.720 Here's your host, Stephen K. Mann.

00:17:18.040 welcome back to the war room continuing our uh our insider deep dive into all things pentagon

00:17:28.640 defense tech national security and and china the real threat i think war is one of the few shows 0.92

00:17:34.240 in dc that is totally comfortable with calling the chinese communist party out as our existential

00:17:38.500 threat which is true you can fact check me on that all you like it's true uh we were just sort

00:17:43.720 of talking about that justin who of course was one of the founders of doge you were a senior advisor

00:17:47.560 to Secretary of War Hegseth.

00:17:50.920 We're picking your brain about all the things

00:17:52.800 that the posse needs to know

00:17:54.040 so they can understand what the kind of evolving

00:17:56.340 national security approach,

00:17:57.560 not just of the Trump administration is,

00:17:59.360 but what it should be.

00:18:00.580 We're talking about drones,

00:18:01.900 how that's sort of this new, I think,

00:18:04.660 kind of arrow in the quiver of modern warfare,

00:18:06.960 whether it's Ukraine, Iran.

00:18:08.780 Talk to us a little bit more about that asymmetry

00:18:11.240 and that drone initiative

00:18:12.800 that you spearheaded at the Pentagon,

00:18:14.940 where we stand with that

00:18:16.200 and why that is so important for the United States to maintain our military advantage.

00:18:21.200 I think, you know, drones have really, in many ways, changed the model of warfare.

00:18:26.700 In many ways, you need, the bottom line is that you need systems that you can lose.

00:18:31.860 You need drones that are cheap, attributable, replaceable at massive scale.

00:18:36.160 And you need the ability to buy thousands, tens of thousands, millions of these over the course of a year.

00:18:41.720 And if drones cost so much that you're afraid to lose them, like the historic model,

00:18:46.200 then they're not truly attributable.

00:18:47.880 And that's why efforts being undertaken at DIU

00:18:52.180 and in R&E over at the Pentagon really matter.

00:18:56.440 And the original goal with all of these initiatives

00:18:59.700 like drone dominance,

00:19:01.060 or how can we rapidly catch up,

00:19:04.520 but not only just catch up,

00:19:05.740 but overmatch with the CCP

00:19:08.940 in terms of our drone capabilities.

00:19:11.140 Because ultimately, we can't fight last year's war

00:19:15.700 or last decade's war, if we don't rapidly iterate and rapidly field some of these new capabilities,

00:19:21.520 because the battlefield's changing every single week. And until we address that underlying

00:19:27.380 procurement system, we couldn't actually get after some of the core issues.

00:19:31.960 Sort of converging this with what I want to talk about next, which is the procurement,

00:19:36.820 these channels, the processes. I know you were really, I think, one of the leaders on this when

00:19:41.920 you were at the Pentagon, but changing how that system works. I'm curious what exactly, you know,

00:19:49.580 kind of what is procurement? What were the changes that needed to be made? What were the changes that

00:19:55.040 were made? And what are these sort of novel things that the administration is doing? Things like,

00:20:00.180 you know, OSC come to mind or Mountain Pass, a sort of interesting fusion of public and private

00:20:05.380 capital to fix these very critical gaps? Right. So procurement is essentially how the government

00:20:12.560 buys things. And so it's not as simple as just going on Amazon or an online store and pushing

00:20:18.800 a button and buying now. In many cases, for example, buying software, which you may be able

00:20:24.880 to just go online and subscribe to almost instantaneously, could actually take years.

00:20:32.080 And so one of the first things Secretary Hegseth did was this concept of software acquisition reform, which took on average from three years to three months to really field some of this new software.

00:20:43.480 But the same thing is applied to things like drones and other weapons systems.

00:20:48.300 And Secretary Hegseth boldly laid out in this warfighting acquisition strategy, which outlined numerous changes to how that gets done.

00:20:56.400 Because ultimately, we can have the best technology. But if it takes us three or five years to buy, to test and to field those technologies, it doesn't really matter if they can't be integrated.

00:21:07.840 And, you know, you mentioned the Office of Strategic Capital, OSC, as it's called in the Pentagon. And I think this is a good, innovative, new example of how you can take some of this procurement reform and really get creative.

00:21:22.320 And Deputy Secretary Feinberg and, of course, OSC lead David Lorch have done a great job in terms of using creative financing structures, offtake agreements, and even doing very favorable debt to some of these companies that allow really the defense industrial base to get revitalized and to invest in some of these core resilient strategic capabilities.

00:21:46.960 is. Similarly to, you know, the software issue or this idea that you can have all this wonderful

00:21:52.500 technology, but if you can't actually have it in your hands, then it doesn't really matter. I think

00:21:57.100 rare earths and the shortages there come to mind, right? We can want to build all these wonderful

00:22:01.560 systems, but if you can't actually build them, whether it's because of shortage of human capital

00:22:05.820 or in this case, you know, whatever, rare earth critical minerals, that's a big thing. We've

00:22:10.480 covered that extensively on the show. We've seen how it's been used against President Trump in

00:22:14.380 negotiations, certainly by the Chinese Communist Party. Can you talk us through, first of all,

00:22:19.060 why these things are so important and how the Trump administration slash the Pentagon together

00:22:25.620 have worked to rectify some of these shortages? And if that shortage is not fixed, how much of

00:22:33.080 a doomsday scenario something like that would be for the United States? Well, rare earths are really

00:22:39.580 the things that power all of our modern everyday life from the chips that go in our smartphones to

00:22:47.060 our trucks that we drive to really everything that powers modern life. But as far as the

00:22:54.240 military is concerned, they're in things like magnets, which move things, steer things, guide

00:22:58.920 things, sense things, and really power all of our modern communication. And so when you think about

00:23:04.220 whether it's drone motors or missile guidance or really any of those kind of core military

00:23:10.480 capabilities, they rely on magnets and some of these rare earth processing capabilities.

00:23:16.100 But the key issue isn't just mining here. It's really processing and getting those into the

00:23:21.560 supply chain as quickly as possible. Now, President Trump and the Pentagon took the lead.

00:23:27.040 And one of the first deals that they did was this deal of Mountain Pass in California,

00:23:31.620 which really, for the first time ever, brought magnet processing and creation back to the United States, which is incredible.

00:23:40.900 Because over the past decade, China has taken an extremely strategic approach in terms of actually trying to put a chokehold on this global supply chain,

00:23:52.840 but more importantly, to try to dominate this area to maintain leverage over the United States.

00:23:57.760 And so we're not at a complete nightmare scenario because President Trump's leadership has really pushed this to the forefront, but it's not just about digging rocks out of the ground. It's a lot more than that. When you think about it, it's the nightmare scenario is if we stop pursuing this issue with the speed that we are and really invest in the processing and refining and those sorts of capabilities.

00:24:20.120 And just give us some of the numbers, like the percentages on what that monopoly, the Chinese monopoly actually looks like, both on the raw material side, but also the refinement side.

00:24:31.120 For the past decade, China has taken a strategic approach to really capture nearly 90 percent of the entire global supply chain.

00:24:40.280 Japan, Australia are in secondary places there with the U.S. lagging behind.

00:24:46.920 But what's fascinating about this entire scenario here is that the U.S. invented so many innovative

00:24:52.940 capabilities to do this quickly. And, you know, God has blessed the United States tremendously

00:24:57.200 with some of the most incredible resources right here in our country. And so, you know, ultimately

00:25:02.820 it's how can we get back to doing what America does best, which is building things here,

00:25:08.360 making things here, and really taking the resources that we've been blessed with and

00:25:12.220 putting them into our supply chain. We're going to get into China. We'll probably do that. The

00:25:16.860 next break because i want to dedicate a lot of time to that i know you're a very close follower

00:25:21.220 and i can only imagine having been inside the pentagon all the things you must know um but

00:25:26.540 this idea of sort of you know reinvigorating re-industrializing the american defense base

00:25:31.860 i'm sure the chinese communist party does not like that they would like it to be very stagnant

00:25:36.560 but i think one of the key drivers of that is this kind of defense tech movement um i think maybe

00:25:42.240 when our audience hears that, even, you know, for myself, when I first heard it, you know,

00:25:47.100 it sort of sounds reeks of, you know, Silicon Valley investors, the shady stuff that it's just

00:25:53.120 all about profit. You know, I think the American people are probably scarred from seeing their tax

00:25:56.760 dollars go to subsidize these companies where, you know, the consultants and the CEOs, the C-suite

00:26:01.500 gets the upside. But then the taxpayers are left with lessened and weak national security systems

00:26:08.320 that don't work or delays, and they're robbed, basically. So what is this defense tech movement?

00:26:15.040 And why do you think our audience should find some hope in it for the future of American defense?

00:26:21.260 I think you're right. When many Americans hear defense tech, they probably think of Silicon

00:26:26.620 Valley selling overpriced software to the Pentagon. But I think really the more interesting

00:26:32.700 story that's happening in defense tech is that the tech industry is really becoming physical again

00:26:37.980 and building real physical products.

00:26:40.720 And if you look at El Segundo or, you know, the Gundo culture, as it's colloquially known,

00:26:46.000 you have founders building drones, rockets, satellites, sensors, all these incredible capabilities

00:26:51.880 and really getting back to like hard, old school manufacturing, but applying new techniques.

00:26:58.180 And that's a completely different model than what happens in Silicon Valley.

00:27:02.640 This isn't just about building some other consumer app or something that's more vapid.

00:27:08.560 It's about building things that America needs to survive and win.

00:27:12.440 And frankly, I think what is so different about Silicon Valley and El Segundo, for example, is that many of these founders aren't embarrassed to say that they're building for America.

00:27:23.020 There's a patriotic capitalism here that really just underscores all of the different things happening across the industry.

00:27:30.620 And a lot of these founders want to solve real problems, rebuild the defense industrial base, and get back to having America win again on the global stage.

00:27:39.740 I want to ask you after the break, because I think our audience, which is full of people who I'm sure would love to work in this movement, in these factories, these are the people whose jobs were either outsourced to China.

00:27:51.780 I'm sure we still got a lot of welders and wonderful people like that in the war room

00:27:55.420 policy, but it seems like such a different approach to actually involving the people

00:28:00.620 who are working the factory floor and the company, as opposed to just extracting what

00:28:04.540 they can from it or from them treating their employees horribly.

00:28:08.540 You know, I think that's something we harp on a lot about the war room, which I think

00:28:11.620 a lot of maybe our left wing listeners do, certainly to Steve might kind of scratch their

00:28:15.600 heads at and not get, but I think that's something that's really cool and makes this

00:28:19.460 whole new movement very kind of you know maga america first coded um we got to take a break

00:28:24.600 we got to pay the bills but we will be back after this short break with more justin fulcher more of

00:28:29.460 a deep dive into the chinese communist party all things defense tech and some good news for

00:28:35.380 american national security which i guess is bad news for the prc we'll be right back

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00:31:17.840 Here's your host, Stephen K. Mann.

00:31:22.460 We're still in the war room where we are chatting with Justin Fulcher, one of the founders of Doge.

00:31:28.400 You know, we're taking so long talking about your other hat that you wear, which is a former senior

00:31:32.600 advisor to Secretary Hegseth that I think we're going to have to do another special on your time

00:31:37.240 mendoge what you found out about confronting the deep state face to face or uh whatever face to

00:31:42.920 whatever i don't know um but i want to pick up where where we left off which is talking about

00:31:47.460 this movement probably best described as like re-industrializing america it's so new google

00:31:53.340 or your phone still auto corrects it to industrial they should get on that um but talk to us a little

00:32:00.620 bit about you know what that that movement is and like we were talking before the break um the kind

00:32:06.980 of like almost glorification and just like gratitude shown to the factory worker which

00:32:13.040 is something that you know all of our elites and our betters i think have just totally looked down

00:32:17.780 on and scorned for so long so re-industrialize as a movement is is pretty straightforward it's

00:32:25.240 it's about how can we start building things in america again and just a few days ago in detroit

00:32:31.500 there was a re-industrialized summit you know hats off to all the folks behind that and you know

00:32:36.740 early supporters of this movement, like Josh Steinman and Mike Slaw. But ultimately, it's been

00:32:42.980 a huge effort underway for the past few years to make manufacturing cool again. And when you think

00:32:48.160 about what the old model said about manufacturing, it was something that was almost as if, you know,

00:32:54.160 manufacturing was dirty, boring and low status, which, you know, for all of us, we know couldn't

00:32:59.460 be further from the truth. This new re-industrialized movement is about really making building things

00:33:04.920 cool again, and really honoring that historic builder class, which if you look back and coming

00:33:11.180 up on, you know, America 250, America was founded by builders and was sustained by builders and

00:33:16.720 continues to be supported by builders. So this new model is manufacturing is all about national

00:33:22.760 power. And it's a tool of national power. And it's about making that front center here in America

00:33:27.120 again. I think the deprecation of that, it's sort of like an even more malign and nefarious version.

00:33:33.360 You know, you see these statues getting torn down, America's culture just being erased.

00:33:37.880 It's like that is our core as a country for decades.

00:33:41.960 That's what it's been about.

00:33:43.220 And I think that the erasure of that is not just about crippling our defense base. 0.58

00:33:48.600 Obviously, China loves that, but it's more to the point there's a cultural aspect to it as well.

00:33:53.940 And I think that is what is so cool, appealing and frankly exciting about this re-industrialized movement.

00:34:00.100 And it has that same sort of, you know, Trump energy of like wanting people to get involved because it's it's so inspired by human agency.

00:34:07.520 We always talk about that here in the war room of people being able to do things or just talk about it, build it right.

00:34:13.300 Action, action, action. That is the the strapline of the war room.

00:34:18.180 I'm sure the Chinese Communist Party does not like this idea of reindustrializing.

00:34:23.440 um there's anything else you want to talk about on when it comes to these companies um you know

00:34:28.920 any really interesting companies or stuff like that they think the audience should be looking

00:34:32.320 out for feel free but i want to pivot i can't believe we're already more than halfway through

00:34:37.360 the show but that is i think what undergirds a lot of this new philosophy which is that

00:34:43.140 the chinese communist party is our existential threat it's not climate change it's not whatever

00:34:47.960 it's not some of this you know woke stuff we've seen um do you think i'm crazy for saying that 0.87

00:34:53.060 you know, do you think China really is our existential threat? Absolutely. China is by far

00:34:59.340 our number one adversary and our top existential threat. But, you know, ultimately, I think, 0.97

00:35:05.960 you know, the threat is the CCP strategy there. But, you know, there are tremendous amount of

00:35:10.760 companies and new defense tech and innovation happening all across the country. That gives me

00:35:15.980 a lot of hope. And, you know, there's a whole bunch of, you know, models of companies like

00:35:21.780 like Hadrian, for example, which make even welders the heroes again and give them equity

00:35:25.780 in the company and making manufacturing cool. That being said, I mean, the PRC is by far the

00:35:32.640 top adversary and it's a whole of society competitor. But what does that actually mean?

00:35:38.000 It means that the CCP uses espionage, cyber operations, it's military, economic warfare,

00:35:45.920 political influence, lawfare, and all of these gray zone tactics to really come after the United

00:35:52.300 States and her allies. And so I'm not saying this because we should panic, but rather more can and

00:36:00.740 should be done to take this threat extremely seriously. America has enormous advantages,

00:36:06.600 absolutely enormous advantages, but ultimately we have to start acting like we're in a real

00:36:11.480 competition across every single domain, not just one or two areas. Yeah, I mean, it's a whole of

00:36:17.340 society approach to respond to a whole of society approach coming from them, right? They were the

00:36:22.380 ones that declared the people's war on us first and probably released a bioweapon, but that was 0.85

00:36:28.940 this morning's topic. I digress on that, but I'm curious what you think that actual flashpoint of

00:36:34.600 potential kinetic conflict. We know the Chinese, I know the book of unrestricted warfare is somewhere

00:36:39.800 around here usually. Steve would always hold it up. If I could find it, I would do the same. 1.00

00:36:43.820 But that they would obviously prefer to not go there. You know, the prevailing consensus being

00:36:49.680 that Taiwan is probably the first kinetic flashpoint. What do you think that that would

00:36:54.560 actually look like? Well, I think many Americans and, you know, many scholars may think that

00:37:02.220 and have this image that China invading Taiwan will be some large scale D-Day style invasion. 0.99

00:37:09.000 I mean, that's certainly possible. But I would say, you know, it's probably wouldn't be the first move. The more likely scenario would probably be below the threshold of full war. For example, blockades, quarantines, cyber attacks, even, you know, cutting and severing undersea communication cables, lawfare, drone harassment, all of these sorts of things that just really slowly undermine Taiwan and her allies.

00:37:38.380 And so I believe that China will probably try to create a scenario with Taiwan where they're slowly strangled and the United States is then forced to decide whether or not Xi will need to escalate.

00:37:50.640 And that's why deterrence, when we think about that from the American perspective, I believe should be a lot broader than just aircraft carriers and missiles.

00:38:01.720 But really, it's really going beyond that to, you know, a whole of government approach around resilient communications, cyber defense, cable protection, stockpiles, all of that.

00:38:12.620 Because, you know, it's not just about how we can win, you know, the first first battle.

00:38:17.000 We certainly can and we definitely would. 0.62

00:38:19.240 But it's really about how can we sustain a defense long enough that China cannot achieve their objectives there and more importantly, won't even attempt to try it.

00:38:27.260 So talking about these gray zone tactics, where have we seen those both already applied in the United States? 0.89

00:38:35.460 We only have, you know, God knows how many military age Chinese males in this country. 0.90

00:38:40.240 We can't even keep count. Thank you, Joe Biden.

00:38:43.220 But also the vulnerabilities that we have that could, you know, expose us to even more. 0.93

00:38:48.860 Well, I think, as you mentioned, you know, under the previous administration, we've had thousands of Chinese military age males enter the United States and we have no idea who they are or what they're doing here. 0.60

00:39:01.900 And, you know, this isn't about ethnicity. I mean, it's really about the CCP's threat and use of their access, influence and all of these, you know, unrestricted warfare efforts to undermine the United States. 0.64

00:39:14.540 And the CCP has had an absolutely long history of using students, researchers, business networks, and all of those different tools of unrestricted warfare to actually put pressure on these overseas Chinese communities and their operatives to advance the causes of the Chinese Communist Party in the US.

00:39:33.840 And so, you know, gray zone warfare means that the battlefield is not necessarily kinetic.

00:39:40.620 It goes beyond that.

00:39:41.820 And it can be right here at home in our ports, in our universities.

00:39:45.920 And, you know, whenever you see some of these, you know, factories explode or fuel port disruptions, it really begs the question, are these really accidents?

00:39:56.220 Or is there perhaps something more sinister and sabotage going on there?

00:40:00.180 some of these kind of doomsday scenarios we've seen depicted they almost seem like they're out

00:40:05.540 of science fiction movies i'm curious uh we i think covered it on war room i remember i think

00:40:11.060 i talked about it from from the white house um but the threat i think everybody next to me is

00:40:16.640 looking at me like what is this girl talking about um but that is the threat of an emp attack

00:40:23.780 What exactly is that?

00:40:26.560 And, you know, why is it something that we should be concerned about?

00:40:32.020 You know, not like you said, not concerned.

00:40:34.400 We all need to, you know, hunker down.

00:40:35.760 But that it's something that needs to be seriously, you know, discussed.

00:40:39.300 Well, huge credit to you for, you know, leading on highlighting these issues for many years.

00:40:44.840 And really the entire aspects of unrestricted warfare.

00:40:47.800 You've done great reporting on that.

00:40:49.380 When it comes to EMP attacks and potential for attacks, a lot of times people think about EMPs as they're associated with nuclear weapons and that's electromagnetic pulse that's emitted after some sort of explosion.

00:41:05.440 And EMPs, those pulses can actually disable and destroy electronics like modern communication, smartphones, and these sorts of everyday tools that power our lives.

00:41:16.240 Now, EMPs are really an interesting potential threat, especially with new delivery mechanisms that don't have to be a result of a nuclear explosion, but perhaps drones or other saboteurs by the CCP.

00:41:32.840 So I think ultimately, you know, there's a lot of things that we need to be doing a lot more of.

00:41:39.040 And, you know, the Trump administration has done amazing work to get behind, you know, drones and drone defense.

00:41:47.480 But ultimately, this is a huge threat that it really reshapes how we think about warfare.

00:41:52.920 In talking about the Chinese Communist Party, you obviously follow the dynamics there quite closely.

00:41:58.040 there's been a lot of movement, right, that people have been tracking, whether it's with

00:42:01.280 Xi Jinping and his generals, the Central Military Commission, and a lot of people have tried to kind

00:42:06.000 of discern or take away some sort of insight on what that could look like, whether with regard

00:42:11.760 to Taiwan, their posture towards the United States. Can you sort of walk us through those

00:42:16.080 changes that have people intrigued, but also then your assessment of what that actually means for

00:42:21.960 the fate of Taiwan, the United States, their, you know, kinetic movements? Well, since Xi Jinping

00:42:28.380 has come into power over the past decade, he's taken a systematic approach to really consolidating

00:42:34.900 power and unifying central control in a level not seen since Mao Zedong and the founding of

00:42:42.940 the CCP and communist China. I think, you know, these purges, a lot of people, you know, think

00:42:49.920 about it, it could be a sign of strength, but it could also reveal weaknesses inside the system.

00:42:54.980 For example, corruption among the People's Liberation Army, distrust, huge amounts of

00:43:01.640 factionalism that are occurring all over key aspects of the Chinese Communist Party leadership.

00:43:08.280 And I think, you know, ultimately, these purges especially have accelerated in the past couple

00:43:14.260 years where you've had more than 100 key military leaders, even as senior as the central

00:43:19.200 military commission itself be purged. And so there's real dysfunction here. But that being

00:43:26.480 said, Americans shouldn't necessarily take too much comfort from that because as we've seen

00:43:31.520 throughout history, authoritarian systems can become extremely brittle and dangerous both at

00:43:37.640 the same time. And so a leader who distrusts his own military may become more cautious or he may

00:43:45.560 become more desperate and want to lash out irrationally externally. Justin, if you can

00:43:50.020 hang with us through one more break. We appreciate your time. One of the leaders, not just of the

00:43:55.460 defense tech movement, but I think from the anti-China space to former founder, one of the

00:44:01.220 co-founders of Doge and a senior advisor to Secretary Hegsteth. We will be right back after

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00:46:07.980 war room. Here's your host, Stephen K. Vann. You are back in the war room sitting down with

00:46:17.760 one of the founders of Doge. You were what? Like you're one of the first people there. So we'll

00:46:24.200 have to have you on again to do a deep dive into everything that you saw there. Probably the

00:46:30.260 closest anyone in this audience has ever come to the deep state bureaucrats. We'll talk a little

00:46:37.280 bit about it. But I have one last question I want to ask you on the China front, which is

00:46:40.700 in relation to, you know, Belt and Road, I think that gets most of the attention for China's,

00:46:45.620 you know, quest for geopolitical hegemony expansionism. What exactly is that? Is the

00:46:53.340 real push for that to get access to ports, infrastructure, rarest, critical minerals,

00:46:57.360 all that? And, you know, take Panama, for example, what Secretary Hexeth is doing down there. 0.56

00:47:03.320 What are some examples of how the Trump administration has been pushing back on that stranglehold?

00:47:09.360 I think, as you mentioned, the Belt and Road Initiative is really China's geopolitical operating system for how they systematically and methodically go after key strategic infrastructure all over the globe.

00:47:24.520 So what does that look like? That looks like, you know, subsidizing and supporting their state-owned entities going out to buy strategic ports, strategic, you know, telecom networks, industrial parks, energy projects to really create as much as they can an attempt at, you know, global control of key strategic terrain.

00:47:45.860 And so, you know, Panama is a perfect example of why Americans really can start thinking a lot more in terms of strategic terrain.

00:47:54.900 So early on in the Trump administration, I had the opportunity to go visit Panama with Secretary Hegseth and the team.

00:48:03.260 And the team did amazing work securing absolutely critical key agreements and MOUs to help maintain American strategic control of the canal and not allow that to fall in to PRC and CCP hands.

00:48:18.720 And so the same is true all over the world in critical ports, undersea cables, mineral corridors, and all these logistics hubs.

00:48:27.700 And President Trump has made that a priority, not just at the Department of War, but across the entire U.S. government to really get after how America can relearn making strategic geography a top priority.

00:48:42.820 Couldn't agree more.

00:48:44.200 I want to pivot.

00:48:45.420 We've got a few minutes left.

00:48:46.880 I want to start with just overall broad assessment.

00:48:50.460 What do you think the legacy of DOGE is?

00:48:55.560 I think, you know, unfortunately, DOGE didn't solve completely the core problem that it was trying to do, which I think everyone serious can admit that.

00:49:08.000 But it did expose something that Washington had spent years hiding in plain sight, which is the federal government often cannot tell you what people are doing, what programs actually work, where some of these dollars go, and whether or not when you spend billions of dollars, do better outcomes actually come as a result.

00:49:28.040 And that's not a small inefficiency here. What Doge exposed successfully were massive inefficiencies and huge scale of waste, fraud, and abuse that was happening across the federal government. And so I don't think the legacy of Doge should be something like nostalgia or just funny memes. I think it should be, and it was, the beginning of a more serious effort that the Trump administration has picked up, which is rolling out how can we make government more measurable, more accountable, and more mission-driven.

00:49:58.040 Talk to us a little bit about what you saw at the VA there.

00:50:02.080 I mean, I don't think anybody who's interfaced with the stuff going on there.

00:50:05.440 I'm sure this audience has horror stories, nightmare stories.

00:50:08.760 But what the systems you saw there that perpetuated that incompetence and just that lag, how is that allowed to exist?

00:50:17.380 How does it exist?

00:50:18.980 And what did you cut, more importantly?

00:50:20.340 Well, I think the VA is an interesting example because you have an organization which, when President Trump came back into the Oval Office and Secretary Collins at the VA inherited, was a VA that had nearly 500,000 employees, which, to put that into context, is larger than the entire U.S. active duty army.

00:50:44.020 So an incredibly large organization spending hundreds of billions of dollars a year, of course, for an incredibly important and noble mission, which is taking care of our veterans and giving them all the benefits that they deserve, absolutely, and they've earned.

00:50:58.760 That being said, I can't tell you how many times I've interacted with veterans and almost none of them have any sort of perfect experience with the VA.

00:51:08.200 Now, you know, Secretary Collins has done a lot to address some of those. But when you look at an organization that size, you had thousands of people that were involved in touching these different processes that in some cases could have been automated, could have been really streamlined to make it a lot easier for veterans to get access to the health care they need, to the benefits, processing their claims and all of that.

00:51:33.520 But, you know, ultimately, we encountered a deep state bureaucracy in many cases that were completely absorbed with focusing on the process in many cases rather than outcomes.

00:51:46.280 So talk to us a little bit about just the sheer scale of the organization.

00:51:51.700 How did it, or the department rather, how did it get so big and how can you have actual substantive measures to sort of assess?

00:52:00.300 Actually, you know what?

00:52:01.420 We're going to put a pin in that.

00:52:02.500 I was just looking at the time.

00:52:04.220 We don't have enough time to get into that, which means you got to come back.

00:52:08.220 So I'm sure people are really intrigued, very interested.

00:52:11.320 If people want to stay up to date with your writings, everything you've got going on,

00:52:15.760 follow you on X, on Getter, who knows?

00:52:19.500 Where can they go to do that?

00:52:22.600 On X, at Justin Fulcher, and then also at justinfulcher.com.

00:52:28.080 Awesome.

00:52:28.460 Thank you so much for joining us.

00:52:29.900 We really appreciate it.

00:52:30.860 I know the audience is going to be really amped up around people who actually do things.

00:52:36.780 You know, there's so much talk here in Washington, D.C. about how we're going to take on the Chinese Communist Party.

00:52:42.500 We're so tough. I'm still waiting on the select committee on the Chinese Communist Party to, like, do anything.

00:52:49.880 Thank you for the 80th press release in a row telling us that China is our existential threat. 0.64

00:52:56.460 Yeah, we know. Thank you. But it's wonderful. 0.99

00:53:00.860 to see so many patriotic Americans,

00:53:04.480 mainly young men.

00:53:05.440 I don't know if we're allowed to say that. 1.00

00:53:07.440 No girl glasses,

00:53:08.920 but really working hard to make sure

00:53:10.880 that this country is safe.

00:53:13.180 It's inspiring.

00:53:14.340 Make sure you check him out.

00:53:16.460 And I think Ben Harnwell

00:53:17.760 has taken over the 6 p.m.,

00:53:19.000 so make sure you go and watch his show.

00:53:20.840 As always, thank you for hanging with me.

00:53:22.980 Natalie Winters, out.

00:53:24.220 Why wait till you're down to your last pill, 0.54

00:53:31.480 stuck traveling, or dealing with a packed pharmacy

00:53:33.920 when you can already have your medications on hand?

00:53:37.380 Seriously, you know what you normally take.

00:53:40.280 You already know what your family could need.

00:53:42.580 That makes no sense.

00:53:44.020 Smart families don't operate like that.

00:53:45.860 That's why I love All Family Pharmacy.

00:53:48.320 They're built a better, simpler system

00:53:51.220 to get your prescription medications.

00:53:53.180 You go online, fill out a quick medical form, licensed doctors review your request, prescribe if appropriate, and your medications are shipped directly to your door.

00:54:03.540 No waiting rooms, no pharmacy lines, no insurance nonsense.

00:54:07.540 People are traveling more, schedules are getting crazier, and have your medications already on hand just makes your life easier.

00:54:14.180 Because being prepared isn't paranoia, it's common sense.

00:54:17.800 Go visit my friends at allfamilypharmacy.com.

00:54:20.960 That's one word, allfamilypharmacy.com, slash Bannon, and use code Bannon10 to save 10% on your next order.

00:54:29.560 Again, that's allfamilypharmacy.com, slash Bannon, and use code Bannon10.

Bannon's War Room - June 20, 2026

Episode 5458： The Factory Floor Is The Front Line： Justin Fulcher On America’s New Arms Race

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