Bannon's War Room - July 10, 2026


Episode 5505： Day 4 Of The Charlie Kirk Assassination Trial - Part 2


Episode Stats


Length

1 hour and 5 minutes

Words per minute

144.24

Word count

9,478

Sentence count

588

Harmful content

Misogyny

1

sentences flagged

Hate speech

1

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.000 This is the primal scream of a dying regime.
00:00:07.000 Pray for our enemies.
00:00:09.000 Because we're going medieval on these people.
00:00:12.000 I got a free shot at all these networks lying about the people.
00:00:17.000 The people have had a belly full of it.
00:00:19.000 I know you don't like hearing that.
00:00:20.000 I know you try to do everything in the world to stop that,
00:00:22.000 but you're not going to stop it.
00:00:23.000 It's going to happen.
00:00:24.000 And where do people like that go to share the big lie?
00:00:27.000 MAGA Media.
00:00:29.000 I wish in my soul, I wish that any of these people had a conscience.
00:00:34.620 Ask yourself, what is my task and what is my purpose?
00:00:38.360 If that answer is to save my country, this country will be saved.
00:00:44.760 War Room. Here's your host, Stephen K. Bannon.
00:00:52.960 You're here in the War Room, and surprise, surprise,
00:00:56.800 It is with the other Bannon. It is Captain Bannon here and Grace Chong.
00:01:02.860 Welcome back to the War Room from this morning's show.
00:01:06.540 We're continuing to monitor the Charlie Kirk trial.
00:01:10.060 There's been a lot happening throughout the day.
00:01:12.660 So let's go straight to Wendy with the latest.
00:01:16.340 Wendy, can you give us an update?
00:01:18.100 I know they're on a 10-minute-ish recess right now.
00:01:21.420 they have another witness to question, but could you give us an update on what's going on?
00:01:29.620 Absolutely. And you know, Maureen, I'm going to start with how wonderful it is that Charlie
00:01:34.680 Kirk's family finally gets to hear the evidence against him. Yesterday was so frustrating for
00:01:39.720 everybody because it was really characterized by more argument than evidence. Today, not quite so
00:01:45.100 fast. It was the opposite. And what we heard first is we actually got to both hear and see
00:01:49.880 the video of Tyler Robinson's roommate, Lance Twiggs.
00:01:53.700 We got to see him dressed in a suit,
00:01:56.040 giving, we'll call it testimony,
00:01:57.820 even though it was on Zoom,
00:01:59.220 but it's a preview for the way
00:02:00.740 he's going to testify at trial.
00:02:02.480 Remember, he's allowed to be on remote for a prelim,
00:02:04.940 but not so at trial.
00:02:06.340 That's the way we started off.
00:02:07.720 So we were off to a good start.
00:02:09.240 We would have liked to have heard the whole thing
00:02:10.780 with no redactions, but we heard enough.
00:02:13.360 We heard everything about the defendant's damning statements
00:02:17.240 on social media, on Discord, in text messaging, in a note left for the roommate under a computer
00:02:24.200 keyboard, and in person the day after the murder was committed. So we have so much evidence now
00:02:30.200 that actually ties all of the forensics to Tyler Robinson. And then the next witness after that
00:02:36.140 tied it all up nicely with a bow by basically saying, you know, we did find Tyler Robinson's
00:02:41.080 DNA on the gun, on the barrel, on the bullets. And so we really have everything we need right now,
00:02:46.600 But it's going to be continuing because this witness is still on the stand.
00:02:50.460 So can you give us an idea of what you think we're going to be hearing when we go back to the trial?
00:02:58.000 I'm pretty sure momentarily, but a general idea.
00:03:02.860 Yes, you're going to continue to hear the documentation of the evidence of the DNA,
00:03:09.100 forensically everything that ties what was found at the scene to Tyler Robinson.
00:03:13.620 Remember, the two defense witnesses that are going to be called tomorrow are both from ATF.
00:03:17.840 We don't know how long they're going to take, but this judge made it crystal clear this hearing will be concluded at 5 p.m. tomorrow.
00:03:24.520 And I'm so thankful that's true because nobody wants to subject Erica Kirk and Charlie's family, fans, friends, followers, to one more minute of trauma in that courtroom if we can help it.
00:03:36.340 I completely agree with you, Wendy.
00:03:38.320 You know, Grace and I saw Charlie five days before he was murdered in South Korea.
00:03:43.620 So while we're not there with him, we also don't want to be subjected to any more than we have to.
00:03:50.620 We want to get to the bottom of it.
00:03:52.480 But it, as you said, needs to be concluded by 5 p.m. tomorrow night.
00:03:58.780 What what do you think that Erica and his parents are feeling right now, especially being able to hear what is being said in that courtroom?
00:04:06.800 what they're feeling right now is a sense of relief that finally that we're in the home stretch
00:04:14.180 and that sense of relief is fueled by really noticing and i'm sure that the the kirk family
00:04:18.480 lawyer explained this it is being completely tied up today in a fashion that we did not see
00:04:23.920 up to this point the prosecution very wisely started by building a foundation and then has
00:04:29.160 added to it over the last several days unfortunately we hit a snag yesterday with some extended back
00:04:35.280 and forth, but they regrouped and actually, even though there were redactions, the judge heard
00:04:40.820 everything he needed to hear about the statements directly attributed to Charlie Kirk. No doubt
00:04:45.740 they were expending a sigh of relief in the courtroom that they finally got to hear at least
00:04:51.460 a significant part of what their lawyer was arguing should be made transparent. So the judge
00:04:57.460 did err on the side of transparency, at least with respect to the incriminating statements we heard
00:05:02.860 about today directly through the roommate, Tyler Robinson, the roommate, Lance Twiggs,
00:05:07.580 undoubtedly the person that knew Tyler Robinson best. Thank you so much, Wendy. I have been told
00:05:14.460 by our team in Denver that they are gaveling back in. So we are going to toss back to the trial.
00:05:20.440 We're talking about multiple agencies besides the SBI, correct? Yes. Your agency, if I'm correct,
00:05:27.720 wrote a massive report 229 pages long yes you've read that you're familiar with it with most of
00:05:37.240 them yes okay and it's a compilation right you authored some reports but a lot of other people
00:05:43.580 wrote reports about aspects of the investigation yes and as those reports were getting done you
00:05:49.560 would kind of read them and decide what needed to get done further yes was that one of the roles
00:05:54.880 that you performed in this case?
00:05:57.240 Yes, as well as consult some of the case agents.
00:06:00.040 Okay.
00:06:01.380 Now, if my count is correct,
00:06:03.340 nine of those reports in that larger body of reports
00:06:07.440 was written by you, correct?
00:06:09.400 Yes.
00:06:10.260 Did I miss any?
00:06:12.160 Does that sound about right?
00:06:13.600 Yeah.
00:06:14.280 Okay.
00:06:15.560 I want to ask you about a couple of those reports.
00:06:17.920 The first report was a report that you wrote on September 22nd
00:06:24.020 that documented the overview of the crime scenes, correct?
00:06:29.380 Yes.
00:06:30.000 And there were various crime scenes that you've described on direct examination, correct?
00:06:35.020 Yes.
00:06:35.480 One of them was the Fulton Library.
00:06:40.120 Yes.
00:06:40.700 Tell us why that was a potential crime scene.
00:06:43.240 Yeah, of course.
00:06:44.500 When officers were canvassing the scene, they were also trying to see the route of the shooter
00:06:50.700 as well as just trying to find the shooter.
00:06:52.500 And they determined that the Fulton Library stood out because there were unattended items there at the bus stops that were away from the courtyard area.
00:07:05.540 And so to them, they thought it was suspicious.
00:07:08.960 And were certain items seized?
00:07:11.200 And what were they?
00:07:12.700 Yes, you had a backpack, a jacket, as well as some gloves.
00:07:17.300 And there may have been some other things.
00:07:18.700 I just don't recall them right now.
00:07:20.780 And do you recall what the item numbers were of those seizures?
00:07:23.760 Was it nine?
00:07:24.720 Does that ring a bell?
00:07:25.720 I don't remember.
00:07:27.660 Whatever seized was sent to the FBI lab for processing?
00:07:31.960 Yes.
00:07:33.620 And along with some information that the suspect may have shed some of these items as he fled, correct?
00:07:40.880 Yes.
00:07:41.760 Was the decision at some time made, and you were requesting that both DNA and other type of analysis get done?
00:07:48.180 Yes.
00:07:48.800 At some point, did you decide to pull a plug on that?
00:07:52.920 At the time when it was already sent, we didn't have more information
00:07:56.840 as far as whether or not the evidence that were collected there were probative.
00:08:03.400 But eventually you communicated to the lab that those items were not in fact connected with the case
00:08:09.740 and there was no need to do further testing.
00:08:11.460 I don't remember communicating that.
00:08:13.860 Okay.
00:08:14.420 If that's in the notes of the FBI or the ATF, would that be inconsistent with what you know?
00:08:21.060 No.
00:08:23.020 Okay.
00:08:23.580 I mention them because some of the reports, the lab reports, have those items listed.
00:08:28.340 Okay.
00:08:28.780 I just want to be clear that those items, eventually, you determined were not related to this case.
00:08:34.540 Would that be fair?
00:08:35.580 Yeah, that would be fair.
00:08:36.560 Okay.
00:08:36.800 The second report, at least as far as I can see, that you wrote was on September 24th,
00:08:46.360 and it had to do with what looks like a request for a search of firearms.
00:08:54.640 Do you recall that?
00:08:56.820 Could you elaborate for me on the firearms?
00:08:59.860 This document documents the NIBIN request for firearms?
00:09:05.080 Yes, so that was the request to conduct what that stands for the NIBIN is the National Integrated Ballistics Information Network.
00:09:15.080 It is run by the ATF, and that is where we test or we input test fires or cartridge casings, the head stamps,
00:09:24.080 and whatnot into a machine that is then run through the ATF to see if there's any other cartridge casings that match.
00:09:34.080 And nothing of value came from that part of your investigation, correct?
00:09:41.660 Correct.
00:09:42.620 Now, going back for a minute to the crime scenes, you talked about the warded area, and you used the phrase, we seize the towel. 0.75
00:09:52.900 Who is we?
00:09:53.920 Who are you referring to when you say we seize the towel?
00:09:57.380 We would be SBI as well as FBI.
00:09:59.660 So that would be myself as well as FBI evidence response team lead, Michelle Kamak, or Special Agent Michelle Kamak.
00:10:07.240 So you both reached into the bushes and you both grabbed it and pulled it out?
00:10:11.980 She did, but I was there with her and we were communicating that entire time.
00:10:16.160 Okay, so when you say we sees Attell, what you really mean is she sees Attell and you observed her sees it.
00:10:21.940 Yes.
00:10:22.220 And when she sees a tell, can you describe a little bit more detail of how that process took place?
00:10:32.420 As far as when it was found or when she removed it?
00:10:35.860 The photographs you showed us, were those the best photos you've got of that process?
00:10:41.360 That was taken by the FBI, so that's all we got.
00:10:45.280 That's all we got.
00:10:46.460 And nobody was videoing the discovery and recovery of that evidence?
00:10:52.220 I believe one of the officers on scene actually had his body camera on.
00:10:57.660 And have you seen that?
00:10:59.440 I have not.
00:11:00.700 Do you know if there's any documentation of the exact process by which that towel got removed from the rifle
00:11:07.260 and then, I guess, put back on the rifle, right?
00:11:10.800 No, it was not.
00:11:12.400 It was not put back on?
00:11:13.680 No.
00:11:14.400 Didn't one of the photos show the rifle in the box with a towel over it?
00:11:19.040 Yes.
00:11:19.420 Yes. It wasn't over. It was still wrapped around the gun.
00:11:23.000 Okay. But as I understood your testimony, the towel was seized by the FBI agent,
00:11:29.080 and then somebody must have reached in and got the gun out, right?
00:11:33.280 No. I'll clarify for you.
00:11:35.060 Sure.
00:11:35.220 So the entire time when we retrieved it, the gun was wrapped in the towel.
00:11:40.260 So when Special Agent Command reached in, she grabbed not only the towel but also the gun.
00:11:45.780 And the towel on the gun remained basically intact, lack of a better word,
00:11:51.420 and then was placed onto the cardboard box, which is one of the photos that was shown earlier.
00:11:56.740 Once we documented that, and then the towel was removed from the gun.
00:12:00.920 You also mentioned as to the other crime scenes that we processed it,
00:12:04.420 but was your role in terms of your actual participation limited to the wooded area?
00:12:12.380 Or did you, were you involved in actually seizing evidence at the other locations, like the roof?
00:12:18.540 Yeah, I was involved in coordinating all that and then determining from there where the evidence would go.
00:12:28.040 Involved in, is that the same thing as actually being on the roof and seizing the items, or are we talking about something else?
00:12:35.240 Talking about something else.
00:12:36.480 And what is that something else?
00:12:37.840 So after the teams would have packaged all the items, sealed them properly, create an evidence log,
00:12:44.780 they would then bring it back to the command post, and from there we would compile everything,
00:12:49.440 and then there was a discussion that was had as to who would take custody.
00:12:53.240 Fair to say that you did not observe yourself the seizure of the screwdriver from the roof.
00:13:01.360 Correct.
00:13:02.720 And who were the people who were actually conducting that part of the crime scene processing?
00:13:07.840 That would have been our state crime lab.
00:13:11.600 Those two people are a part of our state crime lab's crime scene response team.
00:13:16.800 When did you review the video of the suspect running toward the area from which he jumped off?
00:13:24.640 That would have been, I don't know the exact time, but it would have been the day on September 10th.
00:13:29.560 You saw that on September 10th?
00:13:31.360 Yes.
00:13:31.900 And when were the windows processed for the latent fingerprints?
00:13:36.940 The windows were processed on September 11th, the next day.
00:13:41.440 And was the reason that those latent lists were taken was because you wanted to rule out whether the suspect had touched that window?
00:13:51.060 Yes.
00:13:51.800 That's what the notes say, right?
00:13:53.460 Yes.
00:13:53.900 You were not present when that scene was processed either, correct?
00:13:57.840 Not the entire time, no.
00:14:00.100 Okay.
00:14:00.580 Now, the other reports that I have that you did, and correct me if I'm wrong, is one report dated September 24th, documenting the forensic analysis as of September 24th, summarizing what you were hearing back from the ATF and the FBI.
00:14:21.880 Yes.
00:14:22.580 Okay.
00:14:22.880 And then the fifth report was, again, about the progress of the forensic testing, right?
00:14:38.080 Yes.
00:14:39.020 Right.
00:14:39.320 Okay. And then you have a report here which documents a firearm trace and a firearm seized at River Street.
00:14:53.760 Yes.
00:14:54.560 Nothing of value came of that, correct?
00:14:56.700 Correct.
00:14:58.400 You have a report that has to do with the latent print report from your people, SBI.
00:15:06.860 Yes, it's not SBI
00:15:09.840 It's actually the state crime lab
00:15:11.380 But yes, same department
00:15:12.680 Same department
00:15:13.580 Just detailing the results of that examination
00:15:17.060 Which the stipulation addressed
00:15:18.840 Yes
00:15:19.520 You have a report documenting the transfer of evidence
00:15:26.920 From the FBI to your department
00:15:28.540 Yes
00:15:29.380 And then the last one that I have
00:15:31.360 That you personally wrote
00:15:32.580 Has to do with
00:15:33.680 Again, summarizing forensic reports
00:15:42.180 Yes
00:15:42.980 Okay
00:15:43.720 The larger 229 page report indicates that there was some investigation done by your agency
00:15:50.940 That involved interviewing associates of Mr. Robinson
00:15:56.180 to see if you could develop some profile of him having animosity toward Mr. Kirk, correct?
00:16:05.380 I'm not familiar with that.
00:16:07.060 So you weren't involved in that at all?
00:16:08.700 No.
00:16:09.540 Some of the documents in that large report indicates that your agency has also,
00:16:16.200 up to the present time, been monitoring Mr. Robinson's mail and communications at the jail.
00:16:23.900 Correct?
00:16:24.980 Correct.
00:16:25.280 and are you have you kept abreast of that investigation no do you know whether anything
00:16:32.100 of value has been uh developed as a result of that no that's all I have thank you thank you
00:16:38.260 Mr. Byrd redirect nothing all right may this witness be excused yes all right sergeant thank
00:16:45.380 you. Thank you. Turning to the state.
00:16:52.580 Your Honor, I just want to confirm with the clerk yet.
00:16:56.420 Yeah, let's make sure. Thank you, Mr. Gernander. I appreciate creating a good record.
00:17:02.200 Judge, if I could just confirm with the court that all of the exhibits we have offered have
00:17:06.600 been admitted into evidence. All right, so here's what I have, and my court clerk will
00:17:13.140 certainly correct me if I'm wrong. I have Stacey's
00:17:17.140 exhibit 1, 2, 3, 3.1, 3.2, 4,
00:17:20.820 5, 5.16, 6.17,
00:17:24.800 7.18, 8.19, 10,
00:17:28.760 10.1, 10.2, 10.3, 11, 12.1,
00:17:33.220 12.2, 12.3, and I believe 12.4,
00:17:37.200 13, 14,
00:17:39.660 15 16 16.1 16.2 16.3 16.4 17 18 are blank so no that is correct all right we're not we're not
00:17:54.720 offering 17 and 18 all right 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the following are blank 26 27 28 29 that's
00:18:07.860 accurate we're not offering on those numbers i have 30 31 32 33 34 and 35 which have been admitted
00:18:15.880 into evidence that is all that i have record of all right does that comport
00:18:20.520 i mean we certainly can
00:18:29.120 yes would you like to put on the record what were published and what were not published
00:18:35.920 No, that's okay, Judge.
00:18:37.500 Okay, we're good.
00:18:38.880 And then, all right.
00:18:41.460 Can I have just a moment?
00:18:42.780 Yes.
00:18:58.300 Your Honor, the state rests its case in chief.
00:19:01.000 Thank you.
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00:24:11.520 Thank you.
00:24:41.520 she was testifying before the recess going into this hour. Can you please provide us a quick
00:24:49.240 update? Because I think they're about to toss back to the defense on what we just heard from
00:24:52.760 that witness. She was basically tying up the evidence in the investigation. And you frequently 0.80
00:24:58.180 in a prelim will see somebody like this at the end, who basically discusses much of the evidence
00:25:03.500 that's been introduced through other witnesses. The big question now, and what they're talking
00:25:08.000 about up at the bench is whether or not the defense can put their two witnesses on today.
00:25:13.580 That's always the question that is discussed when a prosecution witness ends early. Remember,
00:25:19.140 that's what the prosecutor said. I have two witnesses. One may carry over from Thursday
00:25:22.540 to Friday. She didn't. Now the defense is going to have to decide, and they probably thought this
00:25:27.580 through already, whether or not they're going to have their witnesses ready in the hallway just in
00:25:31.900 case, or whether they're going to excuse them and argue based on the state of the evidence.
00:25:36.540 And that would give everyone the opportunity. And I appreciate you sharing with me how you also were with Charlie just so soon in time before the assassination.
00:25:47.040 All of his friends and fans and family members, they don't want to have to spend the weekend worrying and wondering what's going to happen on Monday when the judge renders a decision.
00:25:55.340 It would be better for everyone if we could actually get this hearing concluded, including the judge's ruling tomorrow.
00:26:02.660 Now, I understand that might not be possible, but at the very least, we can finish the evidence.
00:26:06.540 And with that, Wendy, we're going to toss back because I believe the defense has come back.
00:26:15.100 Thank you, Judge.
00:26:16.100 The state does not oppose publishing 12.4 in the courtroom.
00:26:21.840 I think we've tried to make it very clear throughout this case that we favor openness and transparency as much as appropriate.
00:26:28.680 I'll submit it on that.
00:26:29.960 Thank you, Mr. Gernander.
00:26:31.080 To defense, Mr. Burt.
00:26:33.220 My apologies, that's 12.1, not 12.4.
00:26:36.740 Thank you.
00:26:38.340 Judge, at this point in the proceeding, we're asking the court to keep focus on the purpose of this hearing.
00:26:44.900 And as the justice has said in the Estes case, the purpose of a trial, and I know this isn't a trial, but the same logic applies, is to determine the defendant's guilt.
00:26:57.060 It's not to educate the public or the victim's family or the world on what evidence the government or the state has.
00:27:06.080 As the court knows, we have witnessed availability problems.
00:27:10.380 We spent the bulk of today and yesterday arguing about nothing to do with the evidence in the case,
00:27:17.780 but with rights of third parties.
00:27:20.580 And it's appropriate for the court to consider that.
00:27:22.920 But at some point, I think the court has to return to the purpose of these hearings, which is to expeditiously hear the evidence and then determine probable cause.
00:27:35.220 And I want to point out to the court, Ms. Kirk has been very adept at holding press conferences at which she has revealed evidence.
00:27:43.480 She has represented that the state is her attorney.
00:27:48.660 She has access to all the evidence that the state has publicized
00:27:53.680 and that the media and her own lawyer argues is already in the public domain.
00:27:59.220 So they're perfectly free to go outside this courtroom under the court's protective order.
00:28:05.420 They're free to go out and hold press conferences and announce to the world outside the courtroom
00:28:10.260 what they think the evidence is.
00:28:12.660 They have the availability of that evidence.
00:28:15.320 But the court's role, I think, at some point is to exercise some control, move the case forward, and especially when we have witness availability problems.
00:28:24.600 And I'd ask the court, whatever the court does, if you're going to allow revisiting or replaying of evidence for the sole purpose of informing the world or Ms. Kirk or anybody else,
00:28:36.360 that the court do it at the end of the process
00:28:38.820 and not at this point where we will be deprived
00:28:42.000 of our ability to call this witness
00:28:44.040 because she has to be done today.
00:28:46.520 Thank you, Mr. Byrd.
00:28:47.540 Thank you.
00:28:49.040 Briefly, and I say that because time is of the essence,
00:28:53.780 not because I don't want to hear what you have to say.
00:28:56.040 I understand, but there was a lot that was just said
00:28:58.380 that's just not true.
00:29:00.340 So let me put this in a spot where we need to be.
00:29:04.280 And I understand that there's opinions, but I have to keep this to the probable cause.
00:29:10.460 I don't want this to go to a back and forth about issues that lie outside of probable cause.
00:29:16.820 And I realize statements are made, and as the victim's representative attorney, you want to address it.
00:29:22.920 So I will hear you, but we need to be brief.
00:29:26.600 So if you can be succinct, I definitely want to hear what you have to say.
00:29:30.960 Your Honor, I am almost always brief, I promise you.
00:29:34.280 The family has not seen this video.
00:29:36.480 It hasn't.
00:29:36.920 It doesn't have access to the evidence the state has.
00:29:39.120 The state is the state, and Ms. Kirk and the family have their representatives.
00:29:43.240 There's a completely distortion of reality that was just put forth.
00:29:47.580 And this isn't about educating anybody about anything.
00:29:51.160 This is about allowing the family to see the evidence that's been gathered
00:29:54.080 after a 10-month investigation in which a father, a husband, was assassinated.
00:30:01.520 That's what this is about.
00:30:02.940 So we ask you to please allow the family to view the video like the court has viewed
00:30:08.120 in order to allow the family to process this moment.
00:30:13.120 Thank you.
00:30:13.680 Thank you.
00:30:14.540 Anything further before the court issues its ruling and we go from there?
00:30:18.600 Not from the state.
00:30:19.300 All right.
00:30:20.060 Defense?
00:30:21.400 No.
00:30:21.840 All right.
00:30:22.840 All right.
00:30:23.860 So I recognize that the Utah Constitution under Article 1, Section 28,
00:30:29.720 recognizes victims rights and the court respects those rights and as it's been
00:30:37.280 previously stated balances those rights with the constitutional rights of all
00:30:40.880 parties I will reserve my ruling on that and may be revisited tomorrow but
00:30:47.300 because we have an exp we have an issue of expiring time and one witness that
00:30:51.880 needs to leave today I need to turn to that I'm not ruling that that cannot
00:30:56.340 happen but for today we need to focus on this to to getting this a defense
00:31:02.580 witness on the stand and off the stand and so please if I do not remember the
00:31:09.600 parties can remind me and we can revisit this tomorrow so again I'm not saying
00:31:15.300 yes I'm not saying no I'm simply saying we need to get to this witness and I'm
00:31:19.980 happy to readdress this tomorrow okay all right mr burt all right samantha carner is being
00:31:31.020 requested uh if you can go ahead and uh retrieve her bring her into the courtroom
00:31:43.020 somebody grabbing her yes okay thank you mr burt i just couldn't tell and
00:31:47.260 and I wanted to make sure.
00:32:06.360 All right, Ms. Cardinal, if you wouldn't mind coming forward
00:32:08.740 right by our bailiff to be sworn in.
00:32:17.260 please raise your hand
00:32:24.240 do you still only sir that the testimony you're about to give now before the court
00:32:27.600 will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth to help you God
00:32:30.540 thank you
00:32:31.520 alright thank you ma'am if you wouldn't mind coming forward having a seat at the witness stand
00:32:35.840 to your left is a water bottle if you choose
00:32:38.680 looks like you brought your own as well
00:32:40.120 and after you're situated
00:32:43.240 if you wouldn't mind pulling that microphone toward you
00:32:46.540 just to ensure that your testimony is picked up on the record.
00:32:51.220 Mr. Burt, your witness.
00:32:52.560 Thank you. Good afternoon. Could you tell us your name, please?
00:32:55.220 Yes, my name is Samantha Karner.
00:32:57.560 And Ms. Karner, what do you do for a living?
00:32:59.540 I am a firearm and tool mark examiner.
00:33:02.240 And where are you stationed?
00:33:04.160 I currently work at the Forensic Science Laboratory in Washington
00:33:07.980 for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives.
00:33:11.740 And how long have you been employed at that location?
00:33:15.060 A little over six years.
00:33:16.540 What generally do you do there?
00:33:18.380 What area of expertise do you have?
00:33:21.120 I am assigned to the firearm and tool mark unit,
00:33:23.720 so I receive items of evidence related to firearms, tools, tool marks, and fired ammunition components.
00:33:31.240 At the request of the state of Utah, did you conduct certain examinations relevant to this case?
00:33:37.320 I did, yes.
00:33:38.080 Could you bring up state 32 in evidence?
00:33:46.540 Do you want it, Mr. Burt?
00:33:52.200 Yes, I think.
00:33:53.260 On all screens?
00:33:54.260 All screens.
00:33:55.520 It's admitted and I think approved for publication.
00:33:59.080 All right, let's go ahead and put it on all screens because this was admitted and published previously.
00:34:08.260 All right.
00:34:09.800 Do you recognize plaintiffs exhibit number 32?
00:34:13.360 I do, yes.
00:34:14.340 Are you the author of this report?
00:34:15.860 I am, yes.
00:34:17.340 Okay.
00:34:18.140 What were you asked to do in relation to the examination that's documented in this report?
00:34:24.220 For the Submission 1 report, I received a firearm, cartridge case, three cartridges, one bullet jacket fragment, and four lead fragments.
00:34:35.220 I was asked to test fire the firearm and compare the test fires to the cartridge case and the bullet jacket fragment.
00:34:41.580 I also was asked to do a tool mark characterization on the cartridge case and the cartridges,
00:34:48.160 and then I also ran a general rifling characteristic search on the bullet jacket fragment.
00:34:53.820 Okay.
00:34:54.860 And are your conclusions accurately documented in your report?
00:35:03.720 Yes.
00:35:05.400 Could you turn to page two of the report?
00:35:08.300 second bottom of the page
00:35:11.860 those two paragraphs please
00:35:14.700 did you write in your report these conclusions conform
00:35:20.020 with the relevant department of justice policy on uniform
00:35:23.460 language for testimony yes that is always added to our
00:35:27.580 reports and do you have a standard operating
00:35:31.720 procedure that requires that in each examination
00:35:35.540 you do this language has to be in there
00:35:38.600 we do yes
00:35:40.040 okay and I want to
00:35:42.120 ask you to review
00:35:43.680 the document that is
00:35:45.660 referenced in that language
00:35:47.980 which would be and this is just
00:35:49.900 for her only
00:35:51.240 exhibit 11
00:35:53.140 let me know when you can see that
00:36:05.540 Are you able to view that?
00:36:12.540 Yes.
00:36:13.360 Is this the ATS, is this a language referred to in your report?
00:36:20.500 It is, yes.
00:36:21.060 The written policy of the Department of Justice concerning uniform language for testimony and reports for the forensic firearm toolmark discipline pattern examination.
00:36:33.500 It is, yes.
00:36:34.180 I move that into evidence.
00:36:36.800 This is, what is the title of this exhibit?
00:36:40.320 Your Honor, this would be Carner 11.
00:36:45.620 All right, and what level of publication are you requesting, Mr. Burds?
00:36:49.080 Both public and admittance into evidence.
00:36:52.880 To this state.
00:36:54.280 No objection.
00:36:55.340 All right, Carner 11 is admitted into evidence and may be published on screens and captured by the camera.
00:37:02.440 Thank you.
00:37:03.060 And you can publish that?
00:37:09.720 Ms. Cornett, can you tell us what the purpose and scope of this document is?
00:37:14.300 Yes.
00:37:14.780 This is the DOJ Department of Justice's Uniform Language for Testimony and Report,
00:37:20.360 and it standardizes the appropriate language an examiner will use during reporting and their testimony.
00:37:27.300 And DOJ published this to standardize the wording that examiners would use across their forensic laboratories.
00:37:33.060 And was this published in part because of some criticism that the prior testimony, not by you, but by other people, may have gone beyond the bounds of science?
00:37:46.200 I don't know why DOJ published it. It was before my time.
00:37:50.020 Do you know how long this has been the policy of the Department of Justice?
00:37:53.600 I do not off the top of my head, no.
00:37:55.720 Are the reports that you issued in relation to this case in conformity with this policy?
00:38:00.820 They are, yes.
00:38:01.580 Okay. Now, could you go to page three of that report, where it says qualifications of limitation of firearm tool mark discipline examination?
00:38:14.760 You're familiar with that part of the policy, correct?
00:38:17.240 I am, yes.
00:38:17.920 And the portion of the policy that says a conclusion provided during testimony or in a report is ultimately an examiner's decision and is not based on a statistically derived or verified measurement or comparison to all other firearms or tool marks.
00:38:38.380 Therefore, an examiner shall not, and then it lists several propositions.
00:38:44.480 You're familiar with that language?
00:38:46.100 I am, yes.
00:38:46.760 And it says that an examiner shall not assert that a source identification or a source exclusion conclusion is based on uniqueness of an item of evidence.
00:39:00.060 Your report is not meant to imply something contrary to what's stated here, is it?
00:39:05.100 No, it's not meant to be contrary.
00:39:06.800 You're not asserting that a source identification is based on the uniqueness of an item of evidence.
00:39:13.300 No, I am not.
00:39:14.000 And the reason you're not doing that is because you haven't examined all possible items of evidence that could be relevant to your comparisons, correct?
00:39:22.900 I have not looked at every firearm that's been manufactured in the world, nor have I looked at every tool that's been manufactured in the world.
00:39:28.460 That's correct.
00:39:29.240 Okay.
00:39:29.800 The second portion of that says an examiner shall not use the term individualize or individualization when describing a source conclusion.
00:39:42.360 Did you abide by that policy in this case?
00:39:44.780 I did, yes.
00:39:45.540 And you're not expressing an opinion here that the comparisons that you made are individualized to a particular weapon or a particular cartridge case, correct?
00:39:58.420 My conclusion for one of the exhibits identifies the cartridge case as being fired in the firearm.
00:40:06.420 But that's all it says, yes.
00:40:08.040 Right, but you're not asserting that that's an individualized identification in the sense that it's being used in this policy, are you?
00:40:17.740 No, I'm not.
00:40:18.680 Okay, and then the third part of that says that an examiner shall not assert that two tool marks originated from the same source to the exclusion of all other sources.
00:40:30.940 You're not expressing that opinion either, are you?
00:40:33.360 I am not, no.
00:40:34.080 It says an examiner shall not assert that examinations conducted in the forensic firearms tool mark discipline are infallible.
00:40:45.880 You're not asserting that?
00:40:47.400 I am not, no.
00:40:48.280 You're not asserting that, it says the examiner shall not assert that there is a zero error rate.
00:40:55.420 Correct.
00:40:55.720 You're not making that assertion?
00:40:56.940 No.
00:40:57.600 Okay.
00:40:57.960 It says an examiner shall not provide a conclusion that includes a statistic
00:41:05.080 or numerical degree of probability except when based on relevant and appropriate data.
00:41:12.480 You didn't conduct such an analysis here, correct?
00:41:15.720 I did not, no.
00:41:16.720 Okay.
00:41:19.180 And it says an examiner shall not cite the number of examinations conducted
00:41:23.740 in the forensic firearm tool mark discipline performed in his or her career
00:41:28.840 as a direct measure for the accuracy of a conclusion provided.
00:41:34.580 You didn't do that, and you're not doing that here, correct?
00:41:37.560 Correct.
00:41:40.660 And then it says,
00:41:41.980 An examiner shall not assert that two tool marks originated from the same source
00:41:48.360 with absolute or 100% certainty, or use the expression's reasonable degree of scientific certainty,
00:41:56.480 reasonable scientific certainty, or similar assertions of reasonable certainty in either reports or testimony,
00:42:03.980 unless required to do so by a judge.
00:42:06.420 You're not making any such assertions in this case, are you?
00:42:09.860 I am not.
00:42:10.760 Okay.
00:42:11.800 All right, thank you.
00:42:12.700 You can take that down.
00:42:14.480 Now, when you conducted your analysis in this case, and in all cases,
00:42:19.340 do you typically generate a case file that includes proper documentation of your examination?
00:42:28.460 I do, yes.
00:42:29.500 And did you do that in this case?
00:42:31.460 I did.
00:42:33.040 Could you display to her alone, please, Exhibit 6, Corner 6?
00:42:43.520 Do you see what's displayed there?
00:42:54.440 I do, yes.
00:42:55.260 It's a 47-page.
00:42:56.860 Is this your case file?
00:42:58.840 It is, yes.
00:42:59.480 Did you rely on the documents and photographs that are documented here in writing the report that the state introduced into evidence here?
00:43:09.800 How so?
00:43:10.660 before you wrote your report did you photograph items that you were looking at
00:43:19.060 take other notes and then use that work product to form the opinions you reached
00:43:25.580 that are documented in the report the notes are mostly used for initial documentation and
00:43:31.460 evaluation and then yes supplement to the conclusions that i make it's all a representative
00:43:36.720 image of what my conclusions are going to be. So part of it is going
00:43:40.700 into the conclusion statement and then just showing proof of those conclusions.
00:43:45.160 Right. And your standard operating procedure requires that
00:43:48.820 you document in your case file the basis for your
00:43:52.340 opinions, correct? Yes. I move a corner
00:43:56.420 six in evidence to this date. Is this
00:44:00.100 the 47 page document? Yes. I object. I don't see the
00:44:04.540 relevance the course probable cause determination to review a 46 page report that includes notes
00:44:10.940 would you like to respond mr burke yes your honor this is the basis and documentation of
00:44:16.060 the conclusions reached in the experts brief report which expresses her ultimate conclusion
00:44:23.340 but does not contain any of the the reason for that conclusion so it's important for the court
00:44:28.540 I think to understand why and how she reached the conclusions that she did all right anything further no
00:44:36.140 Yes, just that just that without testimony about what the meaning of the notes is and so forth it is
00:44:42.240 More confusing that is probative so under a 403 analysis
00:44:45.960 I don't think it's admissible nor helpful to the state to the court all right
00:44:51.260 I'm sure I intend to focus on particular photographs which document
00:44:55.420 what she received in evidence and the comparisons that she did,
00:44:59.380 which are also documented in this file and in the way of comparison photographs.
00:45:06.500 All right.
00:45:07.100 As it relates to the objection, the objection is overruled.
00:45:10.400 I find that this is relevant as it relates to State's Exhibit 30, which was admitted,
00:45:14.840 as well as State's Exhibit 32, which is admitted,
00:45:17.800 and the state is able to do cross-examination on this witness as it relates to this report.
00:45:23.260 And so it is admitted and may be published on all levels in the courtroom and through the media.
00:45:30.860 Thank you.
00:45:33.380 Ms. Carner, one of the items you were asked to look at was, as described in your report,
00:45:39.120 one bullet jacket fragment and four lead fragments, correct?
00:45:43.640 Yes.
00:45:44.240 Were you informed at some point that there was a discrepancy between what you were examining
00:45:48.920 and what had been documented by the medical examiner in terms of the number of bullet fragments?
00:45:55.200 I was, yes.
00:45:55.940 Were you asked to see if maybe the ATF had lost certain portions of the evidence?
00:46:01.840 No, I was not.
00:46:03.040 Right.
00:46:03.580 Do you think, and was it your understanding that there were originally seven bullet fragments,
00:46:09.280 but you ended up with four?
00:46:11.660 I was alerted that there was potentially seven fragments from the medical examiner in a photo just a few months ago.
00:46:18.920 Okay. You're clear, though, that when you got the evidence, it was in a sealed condition, correct?
00:46:26.620 It was, yes.
00:46:27.520 And when you opened, what was it, an envelope?
00:46:30.600 A small individual manila envelope, yes.
00:46:33.740 And did you take the contents of the envelope containing the bullet and take photographs of it?
00:46:42.500 I did, yes.
00:46:43.200 Okay. Could you display page 41?
00:46:48.920 of 47, that exhibit.
00:46:59.020 I'm sorry, page 14.
00:47:08.700 And tell us what's depicted here.
00:47:11.680 Yes, this is a picture of the as-received condition
00:47:15.380 of Exhibit 6 in its entirety.
00:47:18.140 That's the top picture. So you'll see Exhibit 6A all the way through 6E in descending order.
00:47:25.280 And then the bottom two photos on the left is the Exhibit 6A bullet jacket fragment,
00:47:30.700 and that is the view of the exterior. And then the photograph on the right is the Exhibit 6A
00:47:36.400 bullet jacket fragment, and that's the view of the interior of it.
00:47:40.400 Okay. Now, after you documented what the bullet and the fragments look like, did you do certain
00:47:48.140 procedures on the bullet, the larger bullet fragment? I did, yes. And what did you do?
00:47:54.840 I cleaned the bullet jacket fragment and I also peeled the petals back. If you think of a banana
00:48:01.240 and peeling the skin away from the interior, it's almost like doing that. As you can see from the
00:48:07.320 photo, the petals have been crumpled in on themselves. So in order for me to see the land
00:48:12.140 and groove impressions, which holds those individual characteristics needed for a comparison,
00:48:16.700 I have to do some maneuvering of those pedals.
00:48:20.160 And how do you do that?
00:48:21.060 Do you use an instrument to peel back the portions that you want to look at?
00:48:25.620 I use pliers.
00:48:27.060 Okay.
00:48:27.760 And after you did that procedure, did you then photograph the larger bullet fragment itself?
00:48:35.640 I did, yes.
00:48:36.540 Were the smaller fragments essentially not of any value to you in terms of doing comparisons?
00:48:42.080 They were deemed unsuitable, which means there are no microscopic marks of value for comparison.
00:48:46.700 Okay, but the larger fragment, after you did the process you just explained, you then photographed it again, correct?
00:48:54.640 That is correct, yes.
00:48:55.500 Could you display the next page of this exhibit, please? Tell us what we see here.
00:49:01.580 This is two pictures of that 6A bullet jacket fragment after the examination preparation.
00:49:07.620 So the top photo is going to be the interior of 6A, and then the bottom photo is the exterior of 6A.
00:49:17.060 Now, after you took these photographs, did you proceed to do something to determine whether you had either class, individual, or subclass characteristics?
00:49:29.420 Yes.
00:49:30.140 Tell the court what that means.
00:49:32.660 To start, when I do my initial examination of a bullet jacket fragment like this,
00:49:38.260 I'm going to look at its class characteristics.
00:49:41.500 Class characteristics are the least restrictive set of characteristics I use in my comparison process.
00:49:48.400 And these are design features that are given to a large group of items that characterize them together.
00:49:53.680 So for a bullet, you could think of the diameter of the bullet,
00:49:56.660 the number of landing grooves, the direction of twists, and the type of rifling.
00:50:01.800 So I would go through and look at the class characteristics of this bullet jacket fragment,
00:50:06.680 which was six-right conventional rifling.
00:50:10.240 Then I'd move on to look at any subclass characteristics.
00:50:13.580 And subclass characteristics are more restricted than class but less than individual.
00:50:18.620 And they are design features that can be put on an object during the manufacturing process,
00:50:23.920 which is consistent among items that are made by a tool that's in a specific state of wear.
00:50:28.800 So what I mean by that is it's going to be a subset of a larger group
00:50:32.940 Which is why it's not used for into or excuse me for identification or comparison purposes for the basis of a conclusion
00:50:39.600 But when you think of something that's made through a mold process when that mold comes together
00:50:44.560 It creates a seam line and that seam line is going to be represented on all the items that it makes
00:50:49.380 So that's why you can't use it for the identification process because it's going to be on a lot of items
00:50:54.680 Which is why it's a subset of the group
00:50:56.680 Then I move on at looking at the individual characteristics, and these are imperfections
00:51:01.920 and irregularities that arise from the manufacturing process, and then there's also individual
00:51:07.860 characteristics can arise from wear, use, and abuse of a tool, and these individual characteristics
00:51:13.120 is what is going to be distinct to that tool, and that's why they're used for the identification
00:51:17.820 process.
00:51:19.140 So again, I did an examination of its class characteristics, looked for any subclass
00:51:23.340 characteristics and then look to see if there was individual characteristics and the land and groove
00:51:27.700 impressions sufficient enough of marks and values to do a comparison process. Now once you have the
00:51:33.520 class characteristics of a bullet, can you narrow the range of firearms that could have fired it
00:51:40.560 just based on class characteristics? You can, yes. And is caliber a class characteristic or an
00:51:48.280 individual or a subclass characteristic? It's going to be a class characteristic because a lot
00:51:53.320 firearms will have the same class or excuse me the same caliber did you
00:51:58.480 measure the diameter of the bullet I did yes and and did you end up with a range
00:52:03.700 where it could have been certain range of length or diameter I did yes and what
00:52:10.000 what was your reading can I refer to my notes
00:52:23.320 The range of the diameter for the 6A bullet jacket fragment was 0.286 to 0.301 inches.
00:52:32.040 Okay, what page are you looking at?
00:52:34.060 It's page 13.
00:52:35.700 Okay.
00:52:37.980 Now, so this is your documentation of the diameter measurement.
00:52:49.860 and then on the right there, L-I-M-P, that's measurement of the land width, correct?
00:52:58.660 The land impression width, yes.
00:53:00.780 And these are all general characteristics or class characteristics, right?
00:53:05.660 Correct.
00:53:06.480 Okay.
00:53:06.760 Now, once you had that this and also that it was, you said,
00:53:13.740 what's called the rifling was to the right, correct?
00:53:18.440 The direction of twist, yes.
00:53:19.860 Yeah, the lingo is six to the right.
00:53:23.160 Six right, yes.
00:53:24.880 And that's a class characteristic.
00:53:26.900 Correct.
00:53:27.620 So once you had the diameter of the base of the bullet,
00:53:34.280 and did you have some difficulty because of the damage to the bullet in exactly measuring it?
00:53:39.020 The reason I provided a range was because of the damage and deformity to the base.
00:53:43.620 So at times it wasn't a perfect circle,
00:53:45.920 so it was important to me to give a range of what those diameter measurements were.
00:53:51.340 Once you have the diameter and the rifling characteristics and the land and groove measurements,
00:53:57.760 can you then plug those measurements into a database and to narrow down the class of weapons from which this bullet could have been fired?
00:54:06.200 The general rifling characteristics search will use those class characteristics
00:54:10.560 and will generate a list of possible firearms that could have fired the bullet.
00:54:15.020 But that list is not all inclusive. It is just used as an investigative tool. Sure. Could you go to page 47, please?
00:54:26.100 Could you tell us what we're looking at here? This is the results of that general rifling characteristic or the GRC search.
00:54:33.260 All right, and what did you determine in terms of just based on the class characteristics?
00:54:39.360 What weapons could have fired the 6A bullet?
00:54:45.020 There were several different .30 caliber class firearms that could have fired the bullet.
00:54:51.080 And they're listed here, correct?
00:54:53.140 Correct.
00:54:53.500 Could you tell us what the initials PI and RI and PR mean in the far right-hand column?
00:54:59.900 They refer to different types of firearms, so rifles, revolvers, machine guns, any type of firearm.
00:55:08.480 And what are the pistol ones? How is that designated? PI?
00:55:12.380 Correct.
00:55:13.860 And what is RB?
00:55:17.020 Bolt action.
00:55:18.560 Bolt action.
00:55:19.880 So based on the class characteristics, any of these weapons could have fired that bullet?
00:55:24.780 They could have possibly fired the bullet jacket fragment, yes.
00:55:27.540 Okay.
00:55:28.220 Now let's go back to the examination of the other two measures,
00:55:36.900 subclass characteristics and individual characteristics.
00:55:41.100 is one of the reasons you look at subclass characteristics
00:55:45.500 because they can be confused with individual characteristics.
00:55:50.900 That is a concern, yes.
00:55:52.720 In fact, your manual says that, right?
00:55:54.740 It's important to rule in or out subclass characteristics
00:55:59.420 to avoid the danger of confusing them with individual characteristics.
00:56:04.000 I'm not sure if our manual says it verbatim.
00:56:06.380 It says that we do need to assess every piece of evidence
00:56:08.840 for possible subclass characteristics.
00:56:11.100 and what is the reason for that subclass characteristics can be similar to
00:56:19.780 individual characteristics however trained examiners are able to notice the
00:56:24.540 difference between subclass and individual subclass characteristics are
00:56:28.480 not always present on an item it's possible but not always present and they
00:56:32.800 tend to look a certain way they're going to be uniform in their appearance
00:56:36.540 they're going to be spaced in a way that's more uniform if you think of
00:56:40.600 circles those circles could be a distance between each other in the same
00:56:44.440 distance every time and they will look almost the exact same every time now does
00:56:49.240 your laboratory have a certain protocols for conducting these comparisons we have
00:56:57.600 procedures for comparison yes like taking photographs yes well but also
00:57:02.780 procedures for for instance you have a document called examination and
00:57:09.160 comparison of unfired and fired ammunition and components that deal specifically with the
00:57:15.620 procedures to be followed for the kind of examination you did here, correct? Yes, I believe
00:57:20.580 that refers to the minimal documentation necessary for a piece of evidence. And one of those
00:57:26.080 standard operating procedure requirements is document observations and evaluate for the
00:57:33.240 potential of subclass characteristics on the relevant tool working surface, right?
00:57:39.720 Correct, yes.
00:57:41.700 And you did that in this case, correct?
00:57:44.100 I did, yes.
00:57:45.120 Okay.
00:57:45.780 And what conclusions did you reach?
00:57:48.920 Can I refer to my notes, please?
00:57:50.240 Yes, please.
00:57:55.720 My subclass assessment that's on page 13 of my report states,
00:58:00.540 Stria observed in the land and groove impressions contain starts and stops, are not coarse, and vary in their height, width, depth, and spatial arrangement, no apparent subclass influence.
00:58:12.360 Okay, and what page was that again?
00:58:15.780 Page 13.
00:58:16.940 Page 13. Let me ask you about that.
00:58:19.780 The stride observed
00:58:26.540 Are not coarse
00:58:30.920 I think I understand that
00:58:32.480 And vary in their height, width, depth
00:58:36.100 And spatial arrangement
00:58:37.560 Did you measure the height, width, depth
00:58:40.460 Of the land and groove impressions?
00:58:44.380 The land and groove impression widths?
00:58:46.300 Yes, I did
00:58:46.860 And how about the
00:58:48.860 striae. That's different than the landing groove impression, right?
00:58:53.160 Correct, yes. You didn't measure the height, width, and depth
00:58:56.780 of those marks, correct? No, I did not. Okay.
00:59:01.880 And your protocol says, does it not,
00:59:04.420 due to their similarity to and potential
00:59:08.520 confusion with individual characteristics,
00:59:12.760 it is essential that the evidence be evaluated
00:59:16.000 for the potential of subclass characteristics?
00:59:19.980 It does, yes.
00:59:20.800 That's the whole purpose of why you're doing that part of the exam, right?
00:59:24.280 Correct, yes.
00:59:24.960 And anywhere in your protocols, does it specify what you're looking for,
00:59:31.060 or is it just up to you to decide what is not a subclass characteristic?
00:59:37.000 Subclass characteristics are a very large part of the training process
00:59:40.620 to become a firearm and tool mark examiner.
00:59:42.580 There are modules that are taught where you're trained to recognize what subclass characteristics look like,
00:59:49.400 what manufacturing techniques might lend to more subclass characteristics.
00:59:53.420 So I am trained to know what it looks like.
00:59:56.540 Okay.
00:59:57.160 And my question, though, was does your standard operating procedure set out, here are the things you should be looking for?
01:00:05.060 For instance, does it say if what the marks you're looking at are not coarse
01:00:10.980 and vary in their height, weight, depth, and spatial arrangement,
01:00:15.280 or if they're perpendicular on the barrel,
01:00:19.800 that indicates that it's not a subclass characteristic.
01:00:22.580 Is there anything like that in the manual?
01:00:24.480 No, there is not.
01:00:25.660 Okay.
01:00:27.060 Did you inspect the interior of this barrel?
01:00:30.120 I did, yes.
01:00:31.200 And did you notice whether it had any debris or dust in it?
01:00:37.300 I believe my notes state that debris and dust was observed in the inside of the barrel, yes.
01:00:43.140 Okay, and could you further characterize what that was, debris?
01:00:47.940 I think it says dust, so I would say dust.
01:00:50.340 Dust.
01:00:51.660 What can cause dust to get inside of a barrel?
01:00:54.960 A plethora of things.
01:00:56.320 I'm not sure why something is ever in a barrel.
01:00:59.540 Okay.
01:01:00.800 So you determined here, you ruled out subclass characteristics, correct?
01:01:09.960 Yes.
01:01:10.260 Then the next part of the examination was determining whether you had any individual characteristics on the bullet, correct?
01:01:17.600 Yes.
01:01:18.160 And what did you conclude in that regard?
01:01:20.380 That there were microscopic marks of value worthy of comparison or, yes, individual characteristics in the landing group impressions.
01:01:27.480 And does your standard operating procedure have any guidance in terms of how you go about determining that?
01:01:34.500 No, I do not believe so.
01:01:36.560 Okay.
01:01:38.160 And then once you determine that you have items of value on the question bullet, do you then do something to produce test bullets?
01:01:49.520 Yes.
01:01:49.900 Part of the comparison process when there is a firearm that we receive is to test fire it
01:01:54.780 to make pristine samples to see if reproducible individual marks of value
01:01:59.340 is being on the bullet or the cartridge cases.
01:02:02.900 How many test fires did you produce in this case?
01:02:07.200 I made three sets, so six total.
01:02:10.060 Is that your standard number of test fires?
01:02:14.760 Our standard operating procedures state that you need at least two.
01:02:18.080 There is not a maximum number that we are allowed to do.
01:02:21.140 It's the discretion of the examiner.
01:02:23.420 Were you informed by other investigators working on the case
01:02:25.800 that this particular weapon was manufactured in Germany in 1938?
01:02:30.880 I was not, no.
01:02:33.160 You did not review a report from an ATF agent who investigated that issue?
01:02:39.680 No, I don't believe so, no.
01:02:41.120 In doing your examinations,
01:02:42.420 is it important to know something about the manufacturing process of the weapon?
01:02:48.080 It is helpful to know how a barrel or any part of the firearm is manufactured, yes.
01:02:53.100 And why is that?
01:02:54.560 Certain manufacturing techniques will lend to that individual characteristics.
01:02:59.400 So grinding is a method that is known to leave individual characteristics on a tool.
01:03:03.580 So if an item that I receive, I can tell is finished or manufactured by grinding,
01:03:08.820 it already gives me an indication that individual characteristics would be left from that tool to the tool mark.
01:03:14.800 Now, once you have your six test fires, then you did some comparison between the test fires, right?
01:03:21.120 That is correct, yes.
01:03:22.100 And why do you do that?
01:03:23.620 That establishes whether or not there are individual reproducible marks of value on the test fires.
01:03:29.260 It's important to know that because if there's not reproducibility amongst the test fires,
01:03:34.200 then there's a chance to say, oh, it's not going to reproduce on the evidence,
01:03:37.640 and I wouldn't have anything to compare it to.
01:03:39.460 And have you had cases where you fired the six test fires and you don't get reproducible marks?
01:03:46.340 Not that I can recall.
01:03:48.260 And when you when you do your comparisons, just looking at the test fires, do you get situations where there's some dissimilarities between those two fired bullets from most Americans are forced to spend too much money on health care and getting too little in return?
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