Bannon's War Room - May 14, 2026


WarRoom Battleground EP 1010： The Crusades For Young Men Pt. 1

Topics
crusades for Young Man Crusades theology
Hosted by
Steve Bannon
Mentioned
Raymond Ibrahim Godfrey Steve Trump Pope Turk Stephen K. Vann Stephen K. Band Philip Patrick John Esposito George W. Bush Mega Media Robin Hood Hastings Saracens Babylon Baldwin Greeks Franks Norman and 3 more
WarRoom Battleground EP 1009： Another Week, Another Long List Of Examples Of How Much “Pope Leo” Hates His Flock Episode 5376： Tina Peters is Set to be FREED!

Episode Stats


Length

53 minutes

Words per minute

171.88

Word count

9,272

Sentence count

402

Harmful content

Toxicity

8

sentences flagged

Hate speech

56

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

In this episode, I speak with author Raymond Ibrahim about the Crusades and why it is so important to understand the history of the crusades and how it relates to today's anti-Islamic crusaders. Raymond is a historian, author, and historian of the Crusaders. He has written a trilogy of books about the 14th and 15th century Crusades, and is a leading voice in the anti-Jihadist and anti-Islam movements. He is also the author of several other books, including The Crusades: A Biography of the First Crusades.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00 This is the primal scream of a dying regime.
00:00:07 Pray for our enemies, because we're going medieval on these people.
00:00:12 I got a free shot at all these networks lying about the people.
00:00:17 The people have had a belly full of it.
00:00:19 I know you don't like hearing that.
00:00:20 I know you try to do everything in the world to stop that,
00:00:22 but you're not going to stop it.
00:00:23 It's going to happen.
00:00:24 And where do people like that go to share the big lie?
00:00:27 Mega Media.
00:00:28 I wish in my soul, I wish that any of these people had a conscience.
00:00:34 Ask yourself, what is my task and what is my purpose?
00:00:38 If that answer is to save my country, this country will be saved.
00:00:44 War Room. Here's your host, Stephen K. Vann.
00:00:52 Okay, welcome to our six o'clock hour.
00:00:55 I've got a very special show tonight, one, because, you know, and going around the country
00:01:00 and being in Texas, Virginia, other places, and spending time, we'd had some specials
00:01:06 during our time in Texas, we would get together, particularly with some of the younger people
00:01:12 in our movement, in the MAGA and American First movement, and a couple of things I've
00:01:16 ascertained, number one, there's a real fascination out there with the period called the Crusades,
00:01:21 particularly among young people and specifically among young men but there's not a lot of knowledge
00:01:27 out there about the crusades so i decided to track down raymond ibrahim and raymond's over
00:01:33 in europe right now but to say hey let's do a couple of shows i want to do shows that
00:01:38 focus on the crusades and focus particularly the crusades um for kind of young men and and
00:01:45 particularly about those who fought in these uh in the crusades and also why they were called and
00:01:51 kind of the history of them. Raymond, you've done a trilogy of books that are, I think Sword and
00:01:57 Scimitar is the first, about the 1400-year war, and I mean real war, cultural, social, political,
00:02:04 economic, and kinetic, militarily, against Islam. You've then done the book of those who
00:02:14 represented the West, the heroes of the West in these various fights against you. So you take it
00:02:21 first generally and go through the whole movement and the battles. Then we go back to the personalities.
00:02:27 I think you have 10 or 11 personalities in this. Defenders of the West are just extraordinary. So
00:02:32 you tell the story again, but through the lives of these warriors, which is so motivating. And then
00:02:38 the last, probably my favorite part of the topic when it comes to crusades, you take the military
00:02:43 orders. The book is Two Swords for Christ, and you take the hospitalers of St. John's and the
00:02:50 Knights Templar that came out of the first crusade, and you tell their stories. And so just extraordinary
00:02:56 how on different angles you tell the story so people have a total comprehensive view. The first
00:03:02 thing I want to do is just give the background, because a lot of times, and you actually frame it
00:03:07 the correct way, people think, oh, the crusade, you came and say the word on so many Catholic
00:03:12 schools throughout the country you know after 9-11 they went and took crusaders off of their
00:03:17 their uh you know as their logos have been their mascots for decades and they said oh no no no
00:03:23 that's so nativist that's so racist that's xenophobic we gotta call ourselves the bumblebees
00:03:29 right not the crusaders and but because the story we we didn't understand our own history
00:03:36 in the elites in this country and particularly in the bush administration when he called he went to
00:03:40 the mosque. I think day three was as New York City, lower Manhattan is still smoldering.
00:03:46 The Pentagon is still smoldering. There's still a smoking hole up there in Pennsylvania. He goes
00:03:52 and says, oh, no, Islam is the religion of peace, which is the old hook, how they get the elites.
00:03:58 Now we've seen 25 years later, we have an active jihadist Marxist movement in this country that
00:04:04 politically is growing in strength every day. So give us the context that it just wasn't
00:04:10 knights in Normandy and French rural families and the aristocracy in these very European countries
00:04:17 just decided we're going to get together in March and go to Jerusalem. It was an invitation,
00:04:23 but it was an invitation because in context, the rise of Islam was really coming and choking off 1.00
00:04:29 the Holy Land. So first off, can you put us in context? What are the Crusades and how do they
00:04:34 really start? Sure, Steve, this is an excellent and complex, and as you pointed out, a very timely
00:04:41 topic. And it's a lot deeper and more relevant than most people can even begin to imagine,
00:04:46 including myself. The more I study, the more I connect the dots, the more I realize that there's
00:04:51 really a bigger story here that has been intentionally suppressed, actually. And so to
00:04:57 answer your, you know, your initial question about the Crusades. So, you know, I've already,
00:05:03 I've talked about this a lot, and I don't want to take too much time. But essentially,
00:05:07 one of the main problems, which you just touched on with the Crusades, is not only that they're
00:05:11 presented in a vacuum, which they are, but it's also in the worst possible vacuum. So like you
00:05:17 said, today, it's, you know, the word Crusade is such a bad word, you know, schools have to get
00:05:23 rid of it, mascots, and this sort of thing, the bumblebee example. And even George Bush, you're
00:05:29 right. You know, he made the whole Islamist peace thing. But even he got in trouble because he used 0.64
00:05:35 the word crusade at one point. And of course, he didn't mean military holy war, he just meant like
00:05:40 crusading a good endeavor, right? And even that he had to backtrack and apologize for, which again,
00:05:47 underscores just how loaded that word has become in a pejorative sense okay so the to fill the
00:05:54 vacuum and to give us some context before the first crusade which was called for in 1095 you
00:05:59 have literally centuries of muslim attacks on what was once the christian world and by the time of
00:06:06 the first crusade a lot of a huge chunk of that formerly christian territory is now islamic so 0.64
00:06:11 this would include all the older, more advanced, more Christian regions in the 7th century when
00:06:18 Islam came onto the scenes, on the scene, which would include all of North Africa, Egypt, all the
00:06:23 way to Morocco, and all of the Middle East, which is all the modern states that you can think of
00:06:28 today, basically, well, from Turkey, of course, Anatolia, all the way down south, Lebanon, Syria,
00:06:34 Iraq, Jordan, and modern-day Israel, Palestinian territories, and so on and so forth.
00:06:41 and a large part of Arabia, even northern Arabia. 0.51
00:06:45 So that all gets conquered in this massive jihad, which, again, here we go with the vacuum. 0.68
00:06:50 And Persia and Babylon and all the— 0.87
00:06:54 Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.
00:06:55 The creme de la creme of Persia, I mean, ancient civilizations, Egypt, Babylon, Persia.
00:07:03 I mean, you're talking about some pretty big empires that had pretty organized religions, did they not?
00:07:08 Yes, yes, into the Indus Valley as well. And Persia had the Zoroastrian religion, of course. And they actually fell relatively early as well. They fell around the same time that Egypt and Syria did. And again, that's probably because they were closer to the Arabian homeland.
00:07:27 So, you know, the neighbors that were right there on the doorsteps were the first to get attacked and the first to get swallowed up.
00:07:34 But yes, usually what I'm talking about now is primarily because the jihad was so far reaching historically, you have to really focus on one aspect. 0.94
00:07:44 So I usually try to focus or I am at this point the Christian slash Western world.
00:07:49 But of course, yes, Persia, the Zoroastrianists, all the way into the Far East and into sub-Saharan Africa also through jihad. 0.95
00:07:57 And these are all diverse peoples with different civilizations and religions, all of whom got subsumed under Islam. 0.80
00:08:04 Okay, so that's basically the context of, if you fast forward now to the First Crusade, everyone in Europe, the educated classes, of course, the clerical classes, the popes, the nobles, 0.92
00:08:16 understood what had originally happened to the Christian world in North Africa and the Middle
00:08:21 East. So they understood that. And it comes out in their correspondences and letters. And when
00:08:26 they're speaking too, they often say things like when Egypt comes back to Christianity and things
00:08:32 of that sort, for example. So now we're coming a couple of decades before the first crusade and
00:08:38 you have another especially savage iteration of jihad under the Seljuk Turks. And they are 0.94
00:08:47 running amok in the Holy Land. They are committing much worse atrocities than had even occurred
00:08:52 before then under the various different Arab dynasties and sultanates, which themselves were
00:08:58 also pretty bad. But now it's at a new level. And the atrocities which we have recorded and 0.89
00:09:04 which were widely spoken about from the Pope, from Pope Urban to Peter the Hermit, to Robert
00:09:09 of Flanders, to, you know, Emperor Alexius and his daughter. So we have lots of records of what
00:09:15 was happening. And, you know, to call it horrific is, it doesn't even do it justice. I mean, the
00:09:20 things that are written down are, you know, stuff of nightmare, where, you know, people are being
00:09:25 skinned alive, their entrails are being pulled out, tied to a column, and they're whipped until
00:09:31 all their entrails are pulled out and fall down. For example, women being systematically raped on 0.98
00:09:37 top of altars, you know, anything you can imagine. And it also spilled over onto pilgrims, because
00:09:44 you still had European pilgrims traveling to the Holy Land during this time. It was understood that
00:09:49 was dangerous. That's part of the pilgrimage. You know, you're taking this, you're undertaking
00:09:53 this very dangerous journey on a pilgrimage to visit the holy sites and, you know, to engage in
00:10:01 adoration and possibly die while you're doing it so and that is exactly what was happening to them
00:10:05 and one of the more notable instances occurred in 1064 because it's widely attested where a large
00:10:11 german pilgrimage went down and they got attacked again by the turks and everyone was slaughtered
00:10:17 and they talk about a very uh attractive nun uh who was warned not to go and then and she was
00:10:23 gang raped to death and then at the end it says and those vile men did these sorts of things to
00:10:29 all the pilgrims they could ever reach. So this is the backdrop of the first crusade, which we
00:10:34 never, ever hear. We just hear that out of the blue, you know, I've quoted it before, probably
00:10:40 to you as well, John Esposito, Georgetown academic, as this memorable line where he basically says,
00:10:47 five centuries of peaceful coexistence between Christians and Muslims elapsed before an imperial
00:10:52 papal power play led to a series of so-called holy wars and centuries of distrust and dislike 0.86
00:10:59 basically from muslims who now have a grievance because of what the crusaders did so until now 0.72
00:11:05 in schools in colleges uh you literally have people and professors and books who teach that
00:11:11 that those centuries that i just told you were islam annexed conquered subjugated and destroyed
00:11:17 more than much more than half of christendom and as well all those other civilizations in persia 0.81
00:11:22 and so forth um this you have professors telling people that that was the highlight that was like
00:11:27 peaceful coexistence between christians and muslims until randomly pope urban and all these franks
00:11:34 decided just to go and ruin it all because because well and now so we have to fill in the vacuum why 0.92
00:11:40 well because they're greedy because they're racist because there is they're imperialists
00:11:45 because i suppose there is lamophobes uh at the risk of being anachronistic and and this is now 0.53
00:11:50 what's supplanted the truth so that hang on i want to go to s i'm going to go as a georgetown
00:11:56 alum i want to go to esposito specifically when they say peaceful coexistence and you look at i
00:12:01 want to remind the audience that since really uh i guess the um the first century right uh i guess
00:12:12 it's from 73 that really the jews have been driven out of to a large extent uh the holy land and
00:12:20 particularly Jerusalem, which was always kind of the crown jewel, at least in some parts, right?
00:12:26 And sometimes they're gone. And so it's really a Muslim-controlled entity. When you had 0.99
00:12:33 peaceful coexistence, if you did have peaceful coexistence, it's because the Christians 1.00
00:12:39 surrendered after these waves of jihad. There was some resistance put up, but the resistance 0.96
00:12:47 essentially collapsed i'm going to say pretty quickly but it was gone relatively quickly and 1.00
00:12:53 it was really submission which is part of the way islam rolls if you pay uh if you pay a duty or if 0.97
00:13:02 you pay a tax or if you either convert or just submit to their control you can live at least 0.99
00:13:08 somewhat peacefully they break out in in violence all the time but when esposito and this guy say
00:13:14 it is because the west was essentially the christian part of the west in that area was conquered
00:13:21 and in islam controlled it this is except for constantinople correct yes correct but if you and
00:13:30 i i read that book and you know it's very fuzzy i mean ultimately what you're saying is that what
00:13:35 esposito is saying is that yes islam conquered subjugated these uh populations and then they
00:13:41 became according to islamic doctrine what's called vimmies and vimmies are basically a protected
00:13:47 class usually jews or christians who by paying tribute uh do not get killed but they may
00:13:53 essentially live as at best second class citizens so it's openly understood they're being discriminated
00:13:58 against yes and that's something that they accept so the peaceful coexistence only because they're
00:14:04 not fighting back and when they fight back exactly that's right and or not even fighting back because
00:14:09 because they're not even asking for equality that's the whole point they know their place
00:14:15 as second class citizens it's almost like you know pre-civil rights movement america 0.95
00:14:20 you know 1800s okay you can be black and you know i won't kill you but as long as you know 0.86
00:14:25 your place kind of thing that mentality the the split in the roman empire between constantinople 0.97
00:14:31 in in in rome and constantinople uh as um as the new rome they weren't particularly close
00:14:39 What did it take to actually have Constantinople reach out to Rome and reach out to the Pope and reach out to the Western Christendom in the church and really the noble families, the nobility and the aristocracy in Western Christendom to say, hey, look, we've got to put the flag up here.
00:14:58 This is a problem, and we need your support.
00:15:01 We need military assistance.
00:15:03 What caused that?
00:15:04 Because that was not an easy move for them to do, given how proud they were.
00:15:07 and quite frankly, some of the disdain they had for the older part of the Roman Empire.
00:15:14 Yeah, no, that's correct. You know, especially, think about it, the First Crusade's only about
00:15:20 40 years right after the first schism, around 1054. So that, again, itself really highlights
00:15:27 the fact that, you're right, he wouldn't have taken that extreme step and swallowed his pride,
00:15:32 the Byzantine emperor had it not been such a dire situation. And if you look at a map,
00:15:37 you have to recall Asia Minor, what we call today Turkey, was right before this, you know,
00:15:43 50 years before this, it was still primarily Christian, Armenians, Greeks, and different
00:15:49 groups. And then the Western part was primarily under Byzantine authority. And then the Turks
00:15:55 come out of the East, and then they start causing, you know, havoc. I just recently just again, 1.00
00:16:00 put this in context, you know, the Armenian genocide, the remembrance date was, I think,
00:16:05 April 24th. So as usual, I did a little research and writing about it. And, you know, you start
00:16:10 realizing that actually the genocide, which most people, the dates usually is 1915 and 16th during
00:16:16 World War I. But if you really understand it, the genocide by the hands of Turks, Muslim Turks,
00:16:22 against Christian Armenians in that region goes back over a thousand years ago. It goes to
00:16:27 literally several decades before the events that we're describing in the first crusade because it 0.93
00:16:32 was then when the when the turks really rushed in and the you know they came from the east so who's
00:16:36 in the east of anatoly it's the armenians and it was greater armenia was a much larger region at
00:16:41 the time and the the sources of again i mean i was telling you about the horrific atrocities by the
00:16:47 turks it's especially against these armenians and they literally talk about tens if not hundreds of
00:16:52 thousands of christians and these are primary sources eyewitness accounts being just butchered
00:16:57 in the most sadistic way thousands of churches being ritually desecrated instead of flame
00:17:02 crosses being broken and burned and statues being decapitated the whole nine yards okay 0.99
00:17:08 so that's what these seljuk turks were doing and they kept going further further westward into 0.92
00:17:14 asia minor until they were right there on the straits right vis-a-vis constantinople so that's
00:17:20 how dire was and that's give me a second hang on it just wasn't individual bad guys i want to make
00:17:25 sure people understand this. This was just not individual bad hombres going into a village or
00:17:30 going to church. You used the term ritual desecration because it was a weapon and
00:17:37 instrument of their conquering. Give me a minute on ritual desecration. What did they do?
00:17:44 Oh, okay. Think about what ISIS and these groups do, which is not just attack, kill infidels,
00:17:50 but make sure that they go and literally ritually desecrate, let's say, a church and 0.95
00:17:55 break the crosses and burn it and gouge the eyes of icons and behead statues, which happens all 0.63
00:18:01 the time in Europe nowadays. So we actually have the same pattern being shown, which the point
00:18:08 ultimately is, you know, again, if you read a typical secondary modern history, it'll tell you,
00:18:14 it'll just say, yes, the Turks ran in and engaged in violets and so forth, but they won't underscore
00:18:20 this point. They'll miss it. Maybe they won't get, they won't connect the dots and realize, okay,
00:18:24 this wasn't just one group attacking another group, medieval warfare. This was one group that
00:18:29 was propelled by an ideological animus, okay, which is what we call today jihadism. And that
00:18:36 definitely comes out in the sources, both of them, the Muslim and the Christian sources. 0.99
00:18:39 The Muslim sources boast about it, okay? I'm thinking now of, they're talking about destroying 1.00
00:18:45 this major cathedral in Armenia and how they sent this large crucifix to be as a trophy to the
00:18:51 caliph in baghdad okay and you see that still happening uh today i've seen so many videos of
00:18:57 isis types including right now what's happening to armenian churches at the hands of azarabijan
00:19:02 where they're literally erasing them from their ancient territories that were ceded
00:19:05 recently from the the 2020 war so yes bottom line is definite ideological animus was infused
00:19:14 in these uh jihadist attacks though they won't come out in typical history books it'll just seem
00:19:19 like one group attacking another. What was the call for help? What was the call for help? Where
00:19:24 did it go? And what was the response in the Christian West? So the emperor and others,
00:19:30 of course, reached out to the pope himself. But we also have letters from the emperor to people
00:19:35 like Count Robert of Flanders, who was a friend of his, because, you know, despite what we always
00:19:41 hear, this sort of ideological divide between Eastern Orthodox and Western Catholics wasn't as
00:19:46 stringent or real as we like to think sometimes, and there was lots of cooperation that went on,
00:19:52 and to your average layperson, certainly they didn't even understand, just like they don't
00:19:56 today, the schismatic fights and what they were about. But so we have these letters and
00:20:02 correspondences of basically calling for help, calling for aid, saying, you know, this is
00:20:07 happening to fellow Christians. And again, the idea that you're asking me, so what caused them
00:20:13 to respond. And I think it's because learning that such atrocious cruelty was being inflicted
00:20:20 on fellow Christians. And see, that's the point, you know, the Franks and the West are Catholics, 1.00
00:20:25 whereas the East, the Byzantines, Orthodox, Armenians are Orthodox. And that didn't add
00:20:30 in any way, shape or form that never comes up. You never hear, you know, right before the first
00:20:35 crusade that there were some debates or even the Pope himself was saying, yeah, well, they're
00:20:39 heretics, they have it coming to them. Okay, that never appears. And again, it just shows you that
00:20:45 in reality, despite these supposed schisms, which were real, the average Christian, even the Pope,
00:20:52 you know, why did Pope Urban II comply? And he didn't require anything. He didn't tell
00:20:57 the Emperor Alexius, oh, now you have to agree to papal authority or anything of that sort. Okay.
00:21:02 So the reason I believe they were propelled to it is just shocked at the horror that what was
00:21:08 being inflicted on fellow Christians, shocked at what was happening to Christian pilgrims,
00:21:13 shocked at what was happening to the Holy Land, the Holy Sepulchre, the Church of the Resurrection,
00:21:18 which had been destroyed before and was being attacked periodically, even after it was rebuilt,
00:21:24 lots of sacrilege. So it was actually what propelled them. And historians now know this.
00:21:30 Again, this is one of those stories that was, you know, much fabricated, the motivation,
00:21:35 the cause you can still grab history books by august voices like sir stephen runciman who's
00:21:42 a great writer and uh you know he'll give you the idea that he's that basically yes they responded
00:21:48 because it was an economic opportunity and uh you know it was an adventure and there was all
00:21:53 these second sons who had no uh nothing to inherit and so they had to go there now historians after
00:22:00 careful research decades worth going through vast archives and correspondences and letters
00:22:06 it's become abundantly clear uh unequivocally so that these men were first and foremost propelled
00:22:12 by a sincere pious uh desire to help their fellow man okay it was actually love okay altruism the
00:22:20 the muscular variety where jesus himself says no greater commandment than to love god with all your
00:22:26 heart and to love your fellow men. So they were loving God during the crusades because, I'm sorry?
00:22:31 The Pope specifically focused, actually went and gave this amazing, I guess, sermon in the fields.
00:22:41 But there's definitely, if you look at the first crusades and look where he went, there's a focus
00:22:47 on the Normans in Normandy. We call them the Franks and they were called the Franks, but
00:22:52 the normans why are the normans uh why are they kind of the center of gravity i would say for the
00:23:00 first crusade and when the pope had looked at the whole universe of what he was going to do
00:23:03 he focused on nor the normans and normandy yeah well the normans are they're they're characters
00:23:11 um so as we know the normans are the descendants of the north men the vikings who eventually i
00:23:18 think with some sort of treaty with one of charlemagne's descendants settled in normandy
00:23:22 in northern france essentially and were christian and but i think they kept something of the viking
00:23:28 spirit still alive in them and they were a very um you know bellicose lot but they were also they
00:23:34 were still amongst them you had very christian uh piety so they made for a very uh they they
00:23:40 they were the ideal crusader because they were adventurous they were militant they were religious
00:23:46 and pious um and they seem to have been giants a lot of them are really large and and the way
00:23:51 they're described in the sources um among them bohemund uh who ends up he's in the he's one of
00:23:57 the leaders of the first crusade and he ends up becoming essentially the prince of antioch after
00:24:02 it was conquered in 1098 and anna the daughter of the aforementioned byzantine emperor describes him
00:24:09 and you can just tell she's awed by him she's just you know there was a he's just this giant
00:24:14 and just kind of like he terrified her just looking at him.
00:24:17 So I imagine there was a lot of that going on
00:24:19 that these Eastern peoples and the Byzantines had not seen.
00:24:23 But it is true that amongst the Franks generally,
00:24:27 that's the word even in the Arabic today,
00:24:29 when they talk about crusaders or today in Arabic,
00:24:31 if you want to say someone's European or Europeanized or looks European,
00:24:35 you say Frank, El Frange, because that's in the Arabic mentality,
00:24:40 goes all the way back to the Crusades. 0.86
00:24:41 That's what a white person is or a Christian is. 0.81
00:24:44 And generally that was the Francia. Okay. But the North, of course, you have the Norman who were different in their own slight culture. But of course, as time goes by, they get, they do become conflated with the Franks to some degree. But yeah, they, again, they do stand out. They'd stand out for their, their martial prowess. That's for sure. As do other, other Franks. 0.73
00:25:07 We're going to get to that in a second.
00:25:09 We're going to get to the call and all that.
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00:25:46 disturbance or turbulence. Remember, that's a fancy term for war, just like we say kinetic
00:25:54 activity. Go today, talk to Philip Patrick and the team, particularly with what's going on in
00:25:58 the Middle East. Hey, isn't it wild? We're here talking about the first crusade that went in the
00:26:03 And guess what? We're talking as President Trump's heading to Beijing, heading to China about the Middle East War and what part Beijing is going to have in sorting this out, this great powers talk President Trump's going to have.
00:26:19 Brother Ibrahim, Ibrahim is with me, the author of a trilogy of amazing books about the Crusades.
00:26:25 We're talking now about the Crusades for young men.
00:26:28 And we're going to pivot now to the first crusade, a couple of the big personalities and what happened with it.
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00:31:24 Stephen K. Band. Raymond Ibrahim is with me, the author of just three incredible books. So well,
00:31:33 they read like novels. And if you want to give young people in your life, and particularly young
00:31:39 men in your life, I strongly recommend you always start with Volume 2, Defenders of the West,
00:31:44 these vignettes about these great warriors. Every young man you have will be jacked up
00:31:50 after they read it. The whole trilogy you got to read, starting with the overall war,
00:31:56 a sword and scimitar, and then you've got Defenders of the West, and then you've got
00:32:00 Two Swords of Christ about the military orders, the monks of the Knights Templar
00:32:06 and the Hospitallers, St. John. Just enormous, incredible stories. The Normans, and the reason
00:32:13 is this is a multi-part series we're going to do, Raymond. The Normans are so important for the
00:32:19 whole story. They had just, and this is the Normans, just to keep it simple, are really the Vikings
00:32:25 mixed in with French gals, right? It's, they came down and went up the rivers and into France,
00:32:33 and they became a military powerhouse. They eventually took Malta and Sicily, and they had
00:32:39 a whole empire based on their military prowess. They took England, in 1066 at Hastings, they
00:32:47 redefeated the Saxons, and then had a role. And of course, if you read, you know, if you're a kid
00:32:52 raised on Robin Hood, the Normans were considered not the good guys, right? They were kind of
00:32:57 hammers. They had a certain Viking way about them. But that's why the Pope particularly knew that,
00:33:03 hey, the odds are so long that I'm going to form a Christian army in the West and march that army 0.94
00:33:12 or take it by sale to one of the most inhospitable places in the world, the Middle East, 0.99
00:33:18 and I'm going to take on a group that has essentially conquered most of the known world in their area in five or six hundred years. 0.96
00:33:28 That would be the Islamic forces, now with the Seljuk Turks, but they had already conquered so much coming out of Saudi Arabia. 0.90
00:33:36 The odds are that are a billion to one. 1.00
00:33:38 I guess I'm going to go find the baddest hombres I can find, and that's the Normans. 1.00
00:33:44 Particularly, you had this system where the lead son gets everything. 0.57
00:33:48 You've got these other lads who are not in order of going to control anything, and they're a little rowdy.
00:33:56 And so the culture has a problem with the male martial attitudes of these people.
00:34:03 Why does the pope decide to go there, and what's the message he gives in that field?
00:34:08 no just i'm going to answer that but before i do because you brought up a very interesting point
00:34:13 about the normans and the battle of hastings and you know they did something else actually these
00:34:18 normans uh a little around the time of the battle of hastings and before the first crusade which is
00:34:22 they conquered islamic sicily uh reconquered it and that was also another pivotal event that is
00:34:27 a sort of precursor uh to the first crusade and it happened again my dates are a little fuzzy but
00:34:33 I want to say 1060s or maybe 1070s, where they go in and they conquer from the Muslims, the Arabs, the Saracens at the time.
00:34:42 So that may as well have been one of the reasons that someone like Pope Urban II did target them because they already had that experience. 1.00
00:34:50 They've proven their mettle against the Muslims and were successful. 0.96
00:34:54 They were proving it in England as well against the Saxons. 0.95
00:34:57 So definitely he saw them as the creme de la creme of martial violence.
00:35:03 As to your other question, your main question, this is also the time of the truce of God and the peace of God. 0.58
00:35:11 And the church is trying to basically tame these men, the Normans, the Franks in general, from fighting amongst each other.
00:35:19 And this is why part of the message of Pope Urban and other ecclesiastical authorities right around the First Crusade was, you know, okay, you have this violence, this violent impulse.
00:35:32 Well, let's marshal it and use it for a good cause in defense of the widow, of the orphan, of the poor pilgrim who's traveling.
00:35:40 Why fight the actual enemies of Christ, not your fellow brethren?
00:35:44 And I think that very much resonated with them because it's true. 0.99
00:35:47 It makes sense, obviously.
00:35:48 um and this is you see this now as a major shift uh the first crusade whereby you know knights and
00:35:55 these landed barons and normans are who normally fight with each other um because they have a
00:36:00 proclivity for that sort of thing now start uh gearing it towards a much more noble cause which
00:36:06 is fighting uh again in keeping with christ's commandment for their fellow man and for god
00:36:11 himself uh by liberating the holy land so i think that is definitely one of the reasons it resonated
00:36:16 with these particular kinds of men. And he sent emissary now to preach that gospel,
00:36:22 essentially, that we have to recruit there. But it's very specific. You can walk us through it,
00:36:28 but they were actually calling for the organization of a Christian army to essentially go on a crusade,
00:36:35 a pilgrimage, to the Middle East and take back not simply the Holy Land, but to take back
00:36:41 Jerusalem as the great poem. I think it's from Tasso in the Middle Ages. Jerusalem delivered, sir.
00:36:50 And this, you know, here we really come to one of the very first obvious points that most
00:36:55 people don't notice. Most historians don't mention the people who will tell you that the
00:36:59 crusades were waged for cynical reasons. It was about second sons trying to get land and this
00:37:03 sort of thing. If that was the case, you know, what they're doing, these people with this
00:37:08 interpretation is they're completely missing the extreme labor that went on that went hand in hand
00:37:13 with crusading so first of all a lot of these men who were landed and uh were rich and godfrey of
00:37:20 bouillon raymond of toulouse who were captains of the first crusade they actually mortgaged their
00:37:25 land and uh some of them were in debt just to raise money so they can go crusading and they
00:37:30 already had land they lost their titles they gave it up they um just to go and fight in the holy
00:37:35 one number two you know what why can't they if you want to be cynical why don't you just attack
00:37:40 your neighbor like they had been doing why travel thousands of miles on horseback or on foot for the
00:37:46 average pilgrim through dangerous enemy hostile enemy territory where most crusaders and the
00:37:52 people who went on the first crusade about 70 percent of them either died or actually gave up
00:37:57 and went home just from the actual from the journey itself because of the starvation of the
00:38:03 disease, lack of water. When you hear about these stories about, you know, crusaders turning to
00:38:08 cannibalism, it's because of that, because of extreme duress, where they were in positions
00:38:13 of starvation, and they would, you know, eat corpses. Muslims had done the same as well, 0.99
00:38:17 for example, during the siege of Constantinople in 717. But so my point is, there's a lot of
00:38:24 easier ways to have gone about it than doing this. And also another very obvious difference between
00:38:30 the Crusaders and the Muslims, which really highlights the idealism or the idealistic 0.96
00:38:36 nature of Crusaders. That is to say that they weren't out just to conquer. They were out
00:38:40 specifically out to reconquer the Holy Land itself. And that's not what Muslims ever did. 1.00
00:38:46 What Muslims always did is right from their first base, beginning in Arabia, they attacked 1.00
00:38:51 their immediate neighbors, Egypt, Syria, Iran, Persia. And then once they consolidated those 1.00
00:38:57 areas then they attacked the next region so from egypt they would attack libya and so forth and
00:39:02 that's the smart way to do it of course because you have your reserves right there you're not
00:39:06 thrown in the middle of enemy enemy territory that's why it was much more successful and
00:39:10 pragmatic the islamic conquest because it wasn't idealistic it was just who's the easiest target 0.92
00:39:15 oh it's the guy right next to me i'm gonna attack him the crusaders didn't do that they weren't out 0.68
00:39:20 to conquer anyone they were out to liberate the very important piece of holy land to them uh
00:39:26 because that's where christ walked so that's where he was crucified resurrected um and that sort of
00:39:31 thing so so it was very idealistic they threw themselves in the lines then getting there
00:39:36 itself was a horrific journey that most of them died from and they lost so much money so ultimately
00:39:43 what we're saying here is that for the first crusade definitely and most of the other ones
00:39:48 as well too but definitely because we're talking about the first crusade the number one reason was
00:39:52 sincere piety okay sincere piety let's i want to talk i'm going to drill down a second because i
00:39:57 think this is a good lesson for young men these uh men were hard they were hard men these guys
00:40:05 were fighters they were warriors like you said the normans had already conquered sicily they had
00:40:09 um taken at hastings uh beaten the saxons who were also from viking blood so there was these
00:40:17 they're taking on the toughest, and they're beating them. And other people associated
00:40:23 with the Normans. That's not simply the Normans. These men were also, because in the medieval,
00:40:28 in the Middle Ages worldview, they were also deeply Christian, right? But they had faults.
00:40:35 They knew they had sinned. Part of this, because indulgences later got so out of control,
00:40:42 it was one of the reasons that the reform of the church got traction from Luther and others
00:40:49 about these indulgences. Was it not something that the church said that if you go on this crusade
00:40:55 and you're there and you go all in on trying to take back the Holy Land, and particularly Jerusalem,
00:41:02 that you will get a special indulgence, you will get saved, and these guys in their own hearts,
00:41:08 knowing that they were devout Christians, but not perfect people, that this kind of combined
00:41:13 two things saying, hey, look, with all the problems I'm going to have, if I sign up for this, 0.59
00:41:19 I got a path to eternal life. Yeah, a lot of that is correct, but I would caution people to keep in
00:41:29 mind that this has to be understood through a Catholic paradigm, and it wasn't about salvation.
00:41:34 It was about avoiding purgatory or lessening it in as much as they could.
00:41:41 And this is actually one of the reasons people try to attack the Crusades, because they make it sound as, oh, the Pope was selling salvation.
00:41:49 Well, he wasn't.
00:41:50 Actually, the idea of salvation was still that it was through Christ, through baptism, through grace, and so forth.
00:41:57 But because of the Catholic notion of purgatory, unless you lived an absolutely sinless life, you would still have to go there, which was extreme suffering after this life.
00:42:07 It was temporal.
00:42:08 It was temporary.
00:42:08 But it just shows you that to these people, they took it seriously, and they were trying as much as they could to avoid that long suffering which they knew.
00:42:16 And lessening the suffering in purgatory, which obviously came – purgatory became a big issue in the Reformation.
00:42:22 But in the purgatory, they're making the direct connection that your profession of combat arms can lessen your time in purgatory.
00:42:32 That's a different pitch.
00:42:34 That's a pitch that people hadn't heard before.
00:42:37 When you read the history, they go, hang on for a second.
00:42:40 Let me get this right.
00:42:41 I'm a warrior.
00:42:42 I'm basically a professional, right?
00:42:45 Right. Because everybody there was kind of they were advanced amateurs or or professionals that in the in the profession of combat arms, I can actually lessen my time in purgatory and get to heaven quicker. Correct.
00:43:00 Yes. And the flip side of that is because they were armed warriors, they knew they were going to go to purgatory because engaging in so much violence and bloodshed, much of which, of course, was not just, you know, so they were trying to use their weakness, which was making them spend a lot of time in purgatory, to help them get out of spending so much time in purgatory by instead of engaging in unrighteous violence, engaging in just warfare.
00:43:28 Just give me a couple of examples.
00:43:29 We'll do this in the second episode in more detail as we talk about the process of the First Crusade.
00:43:34 But just give me a couple of the personalities that jump off the page at you that young men are fascinated by the Crusades,
00:43:41 but who are some of the big personalities you would like people to focus on, particularly in your book, Defenders Against the West?
00:43:50 yeah definitely the first one because i you know in my in in the privacy of my own mind i had to
00:43:56 determine who were the most impressive and chapter one of that book defenders of the west is dedicated
00:44:01 to godfrey of bouillon duke godfrey um and he is really paradigmatic of what we're talking about
00:44:08 very idealistic very impressive he was landed he was the duke of lorraine um he was he was uh he
00:44:15 wasn't the oldest son, but he became Duke through his uncle actually favored him for whatever reason
00:44:21 and made him his heir. And despite that, he sold everything, mortgaged everything, raised whatever
00:44:29 money he could, raised an army, and went on to the First Crusade. Very pious according to the sources,
00:44:35 including contemporary sources. And again, this is the irony. He's one of the men that when I was
00:44:40 reading, I mentioned Sir Stephen Runciman, and Runciman uses him as an example of a naive leader.
00:44:47 He should have never been a leader. He liked to listen to monks and engage in theological debates,
00:44:53 and Runciman just completely condemns that as so silly, as opposed to his brother, Baldwin,
00:45:00 who he presents as being more politically adroit and whatnot. But when you read the sources,
00:45:05 what you get is a humble man a pious man a strong man uh you know he we i have i quote how he was
00:45:13 raised him and his brother by their mother and it's very typical for knights you know very from
00:45:18 age from birth to about seven it was a very this is when they learn about god and religion and if
00:45:24 they're going to learn any letters it would be around that time and then from seven to about 14
00:45:28 they would be you know given to some uh family relative almost like a mentorship where they start
00:45:35 learning all sorts of things including etiquette but also horse riding and um and discipline okay
00:45:42 and doing duties and then from about 14 on this is when they're really you can see them as squires
00:45:48 and they're engaged in full-on combat warfare not exactly what kids do today you know with
00:45:54 their game boys and video and video games but uh so they would be engaged in that sort of thing
00:45:59 very edifying very fulfilling until about 21 when they would were knighted knighted essentially and
00:46:04 this is the same story for Godfrey, but we also learned that through his youth, he was just seen
00:46:10 as an immensely stalwart warrior, according, they'll say legend, but according to the sources,
00:46:16 multiple sources, with one sword stroke, he split a Turk vertically, okay, and one part,
00:46:23 a Turk on a horse, and one part slipped off, and the other part dangled on the horse,
00:46:28 and, you know, all the Muslims and the Turks freaked out because it ran back 0.53
00:46:31 into Antioch, looking like that.
00:46:34 So he fought a bear.
00:46:36 Again, these are true stories.
00:46:38 Instead of naive, if the military orders,
00:46:42 if the Templars had been around
00:46:43 or the Knights of St. John had been around,
00:46:46 he would have been the type of,
00:46:48 he was almost monastic.
00:46:49 I mean, the reason Runciman goes after him is naivete.
00:46:52 He's immensely spiritual.
00:46:53 He's almost like a Zen warrior, right?
00:46:55 He's a very, very deeply esoteric Christianity too.
00:46:59 He's very much more the Orthodox Church than the Western Church, not so much just about the ceremonies and the customs.
00:47:06 He's really taking in the spiritual nature of the Desert Fathers, the spiritual nature of the West.
00:47:12 He's an immensely spiritual crusader, right, or knight at the time.
00:47:17 I would completely agree with those characterizations.
00:47:20 I think they're very spot on.
00:47:21 And he was, I think, even when I wrote Two Swords of Christ, I mentioned him as a sort of predecessor of the Knights of the Temple.
00:47:29 He's the kind of guy they were modeling because he also was monastic, that he never got married because he was constantly involved in warfare.
00:47:37 Due to his piety, he was elected to become the first king of Jerusalem.
00:47:40 And he refused it on condition that he not be called king and instead be called defender or protector of the Holy Sepulcher.
00:47:48 and he famously said, I will not wear a crown of gold
00:47:51 where my savior wore a crown of thorns.
00:47:54 Okay, so that's the kind of man that he was
00:47:56 and he continued fighting.
00:47:58 And when he was elected, people think this is,
00:48:00 again, it's funny because we were told,
00:48:02 oh, they went to the Holy Land to conquer land.
00:48:05 This was about land.
00:48:06 Actually, a lot of them, once they had liberated it,
00:48:08 all they wanted to do was go back home, including Godfrey.
00:48:11 So it was seen as a sacrifice to stay there.
00:48:14 Instead of going back home to your loved ones
00:48:16 and safety and your lands,
00:48:17 You stay in this desert with hostile people all around you in constant warfare.
00:48:23 Not exactly a great deal or a great bargain, but he chose it, he opted for it, and he died. 1.00
00:48:28 He only lasted for a year before he finally died without giving too much away, but there's good reason to believe he was poisoned by a Muslim. 1.00
00:48:37 But that's the paradigmatic type of character. 1.00
00:48:40 I want to get into all that real quickly.
00:48:43 Let's go through all three books.
00:48:44 I want people, for this exercise, the second book is probably the best, but the other two, and I tell people, get all three of them, because you get the overview of the war, and you can see so many relevant kind of facts of the day.
00:48:58 The second volume right there, the Defenders of the West, and the third volume about the two military orders, the Knights of St. John and the Knights of Templar.
00:49:06 Just give me a minute or so on all three of the books, your research, the years writing it, your great love of this time and this tale.
00:49:17 Thanks, Steve, for the opportunity and just to follow up on what you said.
00:49:20 The three books can be read in any order.
00:49:21 And so for someone to grab Defenders of the West, if they really want heroism, inspiring stories, which are based on, of course, the long story, the long war between Islam and the West.
00:49:32 yeah you're right defenders of the west fills in the spot the first but if you want to read them
00:49:37 all and if you want to really get it in the first book would give you the most general introduction
00:49:41 it's assumed that you know the reader doesn't know much so the first book sword and scimitar
00:49:46 really covers the long history of conflict between islam and the west from the rise of islam in the
00:49:51 7th century up until america's first war with islam first war as a nation which is the first
00:49:56 Barbary Wars. So that'll give you the lay of the land. Defenders of the West, it's the same 0.71
00:50:03 terrain, but told through the eyes and lives of these various defenders that I highlight. Each
00:50:09 chapter is basically a mini biography. And the Two Swords of Christ is like both of them. It's
00:50:14 really, this is the one that's focused on the Crusades. Because even though I wasn't writing
00:50:18 about the Crusades, I was writing about the military orders, and they are inseparable from
00:50:22 the Crusades. So really the book, if you wanted the deepest dive of the Crusades, it's the Two
00:50:27 Swords of Christ, but it also gets into the religious theology behind it, the rationale,
00:50:34 the Christian rationale of warfare that we're talking about, because so many people don't know,
00:50:39 how can you be a Christian and fight back? Well, you're going to see that these guys were as pious
00:50:43 as they come, kind of like what I just, even more so from Godfrey, what I described, because they
00:50:48 literally took vows of monks but they were just the most you know like berserk on the field in
00:50:55 warfare so how did they rationalize it so i definitely get into the theology of of of that
00:51:00 but it even goes way beyond the first crusade because at least one of those orders outlasted
00:51:05 the first crusade the crusades and actually still alive till this day the knights of saint john of
00:51:10 course um so yeah thanks for the opportunity i got into this field because you could just see
00:51:15 how appealing this sort of thing is. And at one point, we're going to talk about why it's so
00:51:19 appealing and why it's being suppressed. Social media, where do people go? We go to Amazon to
00:51:26 get the books. Where do they go to social media and your website? My website is RaymondDeBrahim.com
00:51:32 and you'll see links to social media and so forth. And definitely check out my YouTube channel just
00:51:37 by my name. You can also type in Holy War because that's what I deal with. But my website should
00:51:43 have all of my social media links. Thank you, brother. Appreciate you. Look forward to part
00:51:50 two. Thank you, sir. These books are amazing. Give volume two, get it for a young man in your
00:51:57 life. You'll see a change right away because he reads about the great defenders of the Christian
00:52:02 West. Birchgold.com. Take your phone out. Text Bannon, B-A-N-N-O-N at 989898. Get the ultimate
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