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00:32:14.440Well, this week, Christian Schmidt, the high representative to Bosnia and Herzegovina, resigned after having a meeting with the UN Security Council.
00:32:24.280This is something we've been discussing on the show quite a couple of times, actually, with Philip Gaspar, our resident Balkan expert.
00:32:32.840Philip joins us today fresh back from Sarajevo.
00:32:36.320This is pretty important, I think, because it's one of the lasting legacy projects of Bill Clinton and his presidency, though fundamentally endorsed by the neocon, U.S. neocon establishment since, was it 1996, the Dayton Peace Accords, 95, 96.
00:32:55.080um and it's it's the it's the one nation building democracy building venture i think
00:33:03.640after the collapse of iraq and afghanistan on which perhaps is arguably modeled um that's left
00:33:11.040still standing and now it's uh it's time might indeed be winning out um just remind the war
00:33:19.060in posse where we are on this story and why this is important for the for the us taxpayer
00:33:24.260oh thank you as you said it's the it's the last last nation building experiment i would say in
00:33:33.960europe after 30 years after 30 years after the after the war ended and which has proven which
00:33:41.780has proven that something like nation building doesn't work and also and also that to impose
00:33:47.520a system in a foreign country where a foreigner holds powers that he can that he can impose0.54
00:33:52.980impose any law or change the constitution
00:35:49.180He's basically a dictator above change the constitution. He sits above the whole legal democratic framework, empowered by the Western powers.
00:36:01.920and you have made quite reasonably as a critic of the office but you you do make you do tip the hat
00:36:10.500to suggest that perhaps this infrastructure was that the role of the high representative might
00:36:15.980have been necessary 30 years ago where when the country was just coming out of a a terrible
00:36:21.460civil war um but it's it's really not inhibiting the ability of democracy to take root you know
00:36:28.320i don't know what the term is in america but in in the uk in the uk we use the word stabilizers
00:36:33.360for these little wheels that you get on kids bikes i think americans have a different term
00:36:38.220but you know you put the kid on the you put the stabilizers on the bike the kid learns how to ride
00:36:43.820the bike and then you take the stabilizers off uh and i i'd use that as the metaphor for the
00:36:48.680role of the high representative exactly provisional a provisional temporary system
00:36:54.180to allow the previously warring factions to get together
00:36:59.460and build their state together, and now it's impeding that.
00:37:05.060Just tell me a bit about why you think the Trump administration
00:37:08.400has pulled the rug on Christian Schmidt.
00:37:11.040Do they want their own guy in, or do they want to fundamentally re-imagine
00:37:20.400So just to say at the beginning, when this position of the Irish incentive was implemented 30 years ago, stopped the war, stopped the blood, blood cheating on all sides.
00:37:31.260But the problem, as you mentioned, it was a model that was modelized for the beginning to stabilize or to introduce something like democracy.
00:37:41.160But it became a politically infantilisy and nothing works because you can't, if you don't give responsibility to people in the end, of course, they won't grow up in political terms and nothing will change.
00:37:54.580In my opinion, what the Trump administration, of course, first, as you mentioned at the beginning, the high amount of taxpayers' money that has pulled into the country the last 40 years, for what?
00:38:05.720It's getting worse economically seen and politically seen.
00:38:11.680And I think the second thing that you said, if they are going to implement a successor, then, of course, I think someone with less powers than the high representative has at the beginning.
00:38:24.340And, of course, someone who is more aligned with the Trump administration.
00:38:31.620So with the last years, the main focus by the U.S. government, and I think by the Western, was that the fight against corruption, and now when you look at Western Balkans, especially Bosnia and Herzegovina, that you have also a problem regarding security issues, comes to Islamization or something else, which doesn't mean, I don't want to say it's a country like Afghanistan or something like this.
00:38:57.160Hold it there, Philip. I'm just going to do a quick shout out to the show's second half, two sponsors, and then we'll come back. Because I actually think the system here that is failing in real time in Bosnia might be used, utilised, perhaps for the two-state solution in the Holy Land, and I think that's a big risk there.
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00:41:50.320Back with Philip Gaspar right now. Philip, you know, when it comes to the situation in Bosnia, Herzegovina, and I have to say, I do read your analysis on this. You are very fair to the situation. You do point out the fact that there was some utility in the role 30 years ago.
00:42:10.120And you tip your hat in that direction, though you're suggesting it's basically inhibiting now the embedding down of democracy.
00:42:19.820Two very quick questions for you. Let's deal with the first one.
00:42:24.800Is it possible that this nation building model that is now 30 years old might be dusted off again and used in the Holy Land, do you think, for a two state solution there?
00:42:40.120you mean like uh you mean like in to um nation building and what what kind of nation do you
00:42:47.760do you want to do want to create in the holy land exactly um they already are tried tried
00:42:53.960the nation building by creating the palestinians so i don't know which which which new one they
00:42:58.580want to create no i don't think i don't think that any nation any nation building in in this0.99
00:43:03.300in this in the last 40 or 40 years was a success and it will it will fail and it doesn't matter if
00:43:09.700if you if you call it nation building or implementation of a peace agreement if the if
00:43:14.180the people ethnicities in the country itself don't don't want to develop a peace or live live together
00:43:20.180then you can't force anything on them the um there is an article you've got this article out i think
00:43:26.740quite recently in the hungarian conservative which is great it's a great um it's a great website by
00:43:34.900the way I have a great writers there you make the argument which is that the
00:43:38.740principal critique of the of the neocon nation-building enterprise that you
00:43:46.060can't embed democracy in nations that don't want democracy it's just going to
00:43:52.840end up in an expensive failure let me ask you this because you are an expert
00:43:57.280here in the Balkans and you do make the point that withdrawing either the role
00:44:06.220the office Western support could leave the very precarious situation in
00:44:14.560Bosnia and Herzegovina to deteriorate let me just ask you whether you think a
00:44:22.840a separation into the various ethnic parts, a full devolution, breaking up the country,
00:44:29.880is the worst, if it can be done peacefully and with a degree of order,
00:44:35.720whether that is really the worst possible outcome at this stage 30 years on?
00:44:41.900Now, first to the first point, so if you ask the people on the ground in Bosnia and Herzegovina
00:44:47.240if they are Democrats, of course, so I wouldn't say that the democratic process itself has failed.
00:44:52.120It's just what we used the term at the beginning, that the people or the politicians are not hold accountable for the responsibilities, what they're doing.
00:45:01.800To the second point, I don't know if the audience is aware of it, but Bosnia-Zugovina, the state itself, is divided into two entities.
00:45:08.260One is called the Republika Srpska, which is not to mismatch with Serbia itself, and the so-called Croat-Bosniak-Muslim Federation.
00:45:16.440federation the croats recently are are seeking and seeking and calling for the or for their own
00:45:23.540third entity why because you have this you have this um you have this model when it comes to
00:45:29.880elections that um that that bosniaks can vote and elect the representative of the croats which is
00:45:38.180of course unfair so the croats are seeking for their for their own entity and to now finally
00:45:42.920answer your question of course every every every piece and every model that is that is done without
00:45:47.880without blood is good and i think it's the in the in this in this right now this moment it's the it's
00:45:53.480the only way that can um that can um lead to a prosperity in bosnia-ezegovina because i'm i'm
00:46:02.680myself i'm against war against violence my family was was uh it still is from there so it makes no
00:46:08.120absolutely no sense but to finish it it's the only way that the that the politicians and also
00:46:13.400the people finally finally take responsibility and take their own destiny in their own hands
00:46:20.840and as i say you just got back from sarajevo what's what's the view what on the idea of of
00:46:26.600of a if you can only hold if if the only way you hold this state together is by having a colonial
00:46:32.680style dictator, I don't know, just forcing it together with Western political support