Bannon's War Room - WarRoom Battleground EP 1022： The Founder's Mentality Of The United States Pt 2

00:00:00.000 this is the primal scream of a dying regime pray for our enemies because we're going medieval on

00:00:11.040 these people here's not got a free shot all these networks lying about the people the people have

00:00:17.640 had a belly full of it I know you don't like hearing that I know you try to do everything

00:00:21.420 the world to stop that but you're not gonna stop it it's going to happen and where do people like

00:00:25.140 that go to share the big line? MAGA Media. I wish in my soul, I wish that any of these people

00:00:32.800 had a conscience. Ask yourself, what is my task and what is my purpose? If that answer

00:00:39.460 is to save my country, this country will be saved. War Room. Here's your host, Stephen K. Band. 0.62

00:00:47.860 in founders fire tell me how you get the inspiration for doing that so many of the books

00:00:57.200 that you've written have either been about these amazing times in history like the scottish

00:01:03.000 enlightenment where if you get how the scots invented the modern world you have a country 0.96

00:01:08.180 that is a backwater that's totally on its ass and because it's it's stunning i mean when you 0.97

00:01:14.640 If you read Freedom's Forge, it's about how we built ourselves, took the Industrial Revolution from England, but did something quite different and really became the forge for global freedom during the great fascist and imperial wars of the mid-20th century. 0.98

00:01:33.480 But then you also pick out individuals.

00:01:36.000 Here in Founders Fire, you kind of do both.

00:01:40.380 They're individual vignettes, but you also talk about groups like the Founding Fathers.

00:01:43.780 How did you come up with this construct for the current book?

00:01:47.440 Well, a lot of it actually flowed from the Freedom's Forge, because one of the things, the themes of that book, which is about the power, the energy, drive and dynamism of America's private sector,

00:02:01.660 and that at crucial moments in our history, when the public sector, when government is able to

00:02:07.900 really harness that drive and energy and dynamism, miraculous things happen. It happened during the

00:02:16.520 Civil War. I talked about that in Founders Fire, too, of the way in which America's growing

00:02:21.460 industrial might was set to work in the North by Abraham Lincoln in order to win that conflict.

00:02:27.640 It happens during World War II.

00:02:30.300 During World War I, the government missed that opportunity.

00:02:33.160 It tried to direct everything from the center of power,

00:02:36.980 from the center of political power from Washington, D.C.,

00:02:40.680 and it didn't come out well.

00:02:42.000 The Wilsonian approach.

00:02:42.620 The Wilsonian moment of the progressives' idea

00:02:46.900 of how you mobilize for war, and it was a flop.

00:02:49.900 Everybody came to recognize it.

00:02:51.180 Talk about the thinking that comes from the French Revolution. 0.97

00:02:53.680 Talk about it exactly.

00:02:57.640 With World War II, however, Roosevelt made that crucial decision.

00:03:02.480 He disregarded the advice of his advisors who said,

00:03:05.540 we need to do this top-down, government calling the shots,

00:03:09.320 even nationalizing key industries.

00:03:11.940 Roosevelt said, no, I think this is going to have to be bigger

00:03:14.980 than even we can pull together.

00:03:17.340 And the best way to do that is to mobilize American industry

00:03:20.300 and industrial leaders.

00:03:21.900 And that's what that book really lays out as the key lesson.

00:03:24.920 But what I also came to realize, Steve, in writing it and in thinking about it now a decade later, a decade after the book originally came out, was, yes, it is about industrial might, and it is about building factories, and it is about, you know, amazing weapons, you know, the P-51 Mustang and B-29 and, of course, the atomic bomb.

00:03:49.460 but it's also about leadership. That book is about who provides the kind of leadership

00:03:55.040 that makes it possible to unleash that dynamism and energy and drive that is embedded in

00:04:02.220 American economy, but I think also in American society. And what I came to realize is that

00:04:10.980 a lot of what is being talked about, buzzword, in the business community right now, which is

00:04:18.380 about founders, founder mindset, founder mentality. They're talking about it all in the business

00:04:24.680 schools and so on, that this is that founder mentality. Those characteristics are one that

00:04:32.080 are rooted all the way through our history, not just in our business leaders and in our inventors

00:04:39.600 and discoverers, men like Thomas Edison or Henry Ford or the key figures like Henry Kaiser from

00:04:47.520 from Freedom's Forge, but it roots all the way back to the revolutionary generation of 1776

00:04:55.100 and even before that. How does it tie back? How is that an unbroken chain?

00:05:02.380 I see it as an unbroken chain from almost the moment that the Pilgrims and Puritans land 1.00

00:05:09.120 in Massachusetts, and who find themselves in a world totally unlike anything that they've ever 0.90

00:05:17.860 experienced back in England, and who realize that they have a choice. Either they're going to forge

00:05:24.880 ahead and make new lives for themselves, or they're going to die. And that they come to

00:05:34.220 think of themselves as having, and the term that they use is, an errand into the wilderness,

00:05:41.440 and that God has given them this moment to create a new lives for themselves, create a new society,

00:05:49.020 and has chosen them for that. But that fulfilling God's command requires enormous hard work.

00:05:57.520 It requires a lot of what we call sort of self-starting approach to life, from whether it's breaking ground to build crops, defending yourselves against indigenous natives who would rather not have you there at all, or whether it is, in effect, creating a new form of government, a new way of governing yourself that's suited to the life here in this errand into the wilderness.

00:06:26.900 the Mayflower Compact. Tell me about the Mayflower

00:06:31.080 Compact. Why is that so important? It's important because what it is, it's a vision

00:06:35.040 for not just how the settlers arriving in Massachusetts

00:06:39.420 would govern themselves and organize life for themselves, but

00:06:43.340 also to think about it as, in a sense, a model for the rest of the world.

00:06:47.600 If you like, we talked about, we can talk about utopian views

00:06:51.240 and you can say, well, isn't that also a utopian view?

00:06:55.380 this idea of the shining city upon a hill, uh, that, that, that, that, that vision encompassed

00:07:01.440 and, and, and, and involved, but it was a utopian view. All right. But it's one that first of all

00:07:07.480 is formed within the bounds of, of, of theistic belief of Christianity, uh, and understanding

00:07:16.160 that ultimately the basis, the basis of any, but I think, I think, I think, I think the

00:07:22.460 The Mayflower Compact is so important because it gets back to your...

00:07:25.780 Remember, they had the lived experience of being on a tiny vessel for a couple of months

00:07:31.200 with people, with two-thirds of the people were not believers.

00:07:34.120 The pilgrims or the Puritans were one small section of the vessel itself.

00:07:39.540 They had other people that came aboard.

00:07:41.400 And in the cramped quarters, remember, I think even a couple of marriages broke up, right?

00:07:48.080 As a result, that's true.

00:07:49.440 as a result because you were cheek by jowl right in very confined quarters and remember the compact

00:07:55.440 came up after they dropped anchor they kind of said hey look let's let's sit down here and go

00:08:01.680 through how exactly we're going to comport ourselves when we get there i to me it's always

00:08:06.920 been about the practicality and common sense of how do we get disparate elements into kind of one

00:08:14.100 you know thinking about how we're going to make this progress for the pursuit of happiness

00:08:20.380 as we as we go it's a it's a they when they were picking them up in holland and in in england

00:08:27.280 they weren't talking about a mayfair compact that lived experience of the cramped ships

00:08:31.780 and what it was really going to be and of course some of the people who were not puritans were

00:08:37.680 you know uh how do i say this toxic masculinity is not it but they were men's men who were in a

00:08:45.840 very tough situation and they were looking out that they were the the place they arrived didn't

00:08:51.720 look like virginia or what it wasn't it didn't look like it was sold to them as virginia no it

00:08:56.380 was it was very quite barren and very cold right or it was going to be very hostile and so the

00:09:02.640 compact came up from this thing you keep talking about the common sense of the scottish enlightenment

00:09:07.600 I like your read. That's a I think that's an important dimension to this as well, that it is on the one hand, you have the sort of utopian hopes, but they adjust to reality. Yes, they adjust to the reality which you perceive. And the fact that you're going to work with people who may not have that same kind of messianic pursuit of perfection. And it's kind of the genius of the it's kind of the genius of the English and the Scottish. Right.

00:09:32.440 I think that's true.

00:09:35.840 But that notion of being, in a sense, chosen by God to perform mission,

00:09:40.480 but it's one which demands hard work, demands from you everything that is possible here,

00:09:48.220 builds into the American experience that sense of the self-starter that is foundational for that personality.

00:09:56.780 Founders Fire is a very different way to look at our revolution

00:10:00.520 and how it's rolled all the way through to the current day

00:10:02.740 up into people like Elon Musk and Donald Trump.

00:10:05.960 It's a must-read.

00:10:06.760 I love the book, not just because I love everything that Arthur Herman writes,

00:10:10.540 but this was very profound.

00:10:13.420 I've got to go to my current obsession.

00:10:15.560 Let's talk about your current obsession.

00:10:16.320 Because people know that I get my obsession.

00:10:18.040 So we're getting ready for the Memorial Day.

00:10:22.940 We always do Memorial Day weekend about the honored dead.

00:10:26.520 And we this year we have a special on Saturday about Peleliu and Terawa, the bodies that have not been brought back.

00:10:32.580 We talk about those those battles. And it gets me to thinking that President Trump just returned from this huge summit with the Chinese Communist Party in Beijing.

00:10:42.860 And everybody everybody talked about that, took all the businessmen over.

00:10:46.120 And I'm sitting there and I'm thinking that, you know, there was a guy that kind of understood this better than any of the Americans at the time.

00:10:57.500 And he's been kind of kicked off into history as as a as a guy that might have been a great war leader.

00:11:03.980 But it's dropping. I said, that's MacArthur. And there's one book that really explains that.

00:11:09.720 And so then I just do a model kind of research and I get to a major article about how MacArthur understood what modern Asia was going to become.

00:11:18.740 And it's by it's through the Hudson Institute is by Arthur Herman.

00:11:23.120 And then I remember, oh, my God, it was it was his book.

00:11:26.720 I've read every biography on MacArthur and there's one biography of MacArthur takes a very different take of MacArthur than Americans.

00:11:34.020 And they've had great writers. I mean, Manchester, tremendous, tremendous writers.

00:11:38.220 I mean, American Caesar, I devoured that back, I think, when I was just starting the Navy in the late 70s, early 80s.

00:11:44.660 It was.

00:11:45.160 But your biography of MacArthur and your article in Hudson.

00:11:50.900 Actually, it was the Wall Street Journal.

00:11:52.600 Was it the Wall Street Journal?

00:11:53.580 The Wall Street Journal Asia is where it originally ran, yeah.

00:11:55.920 Really, the piece.

00:11:57.080 And I want to talk about that.

00:11:58.940 But I also want to go back to Freedom's Forge.

00:12:02.060 the geniuses we had in the industrial side and even in the war, how they actually gave away. 0.96

00:12:09.680 We did walk away from China and turn it over to the worst people on Earth, the Chinese Communist Party. 0.97

00:12:15.640 So first of all, tell me about terrible. Let's start at the end with how MacArthur knew your piece in the in the Wall Street Journal, Asian Wall Street Journal, 0.98

00:12:24.040 how MacArthur of everybody actually understood what we now tell today modern Asia.

00:12:29.520 In my view, Douglas MacArthur is the greatest grand strategist America's ever produced.

00:12:37.280 Amen.

00:12:38.540 Tell me why you believe that.

00:12:41.320 He understood America's role in the global sense, not just in Asia, but its role as a global power,

00:12:50.780 and who built his entire strategy during World War II as a war leader around that,

00:12:57.620 and then also for his view about where Asia was going in the post-war era, including his

00:13:05.540 rehabilitation of Japan, was all of a piece of seeing America's future, the importance of America's

00:13:12.700 future in Asia as being crucial, not just for the United States, but also crucial for Asia and

00:13:18.040 humanity. What I discovered in working on the biography was that the key figure in Douglas

00:13:25.720 MacArthur's life is his dad, Arthur MacArthur.

00:13:30.080 Nineteen years old, awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor

00:13:33.460 from Missionary Ridge. He's a Civil War hero.

00:13:38.180 At 19. At 19.

00:13:41.240 He is a magnificent

00:13:45.700 military leader in the post-Civil War

00:13:49.820 era. Would have come up as Chief of Staff for

00:13:53.780 the Army several times, but couldn't quite make the cut. But it was President Grant,

00:14:01.900 Ulysses S. Grant, his former commanding officer, who decided that the United States now needed to

00:14:08.260 start thinking about what was happening on the other side of the Pacific. And he offered to

00:14:14.540 MacArthur. The geniuses of the 19th century understood that we're a manifest destiny,

00:14:19.840 we're a pacific nation grant got it grant got it and then he signed to macarthur he said you should

00:14:26.940 think about going over as military attache to the american embassy in beijing and think about that

00:14:34.240 what you're it's it's the the scope and understanding of the giants that we stand on the

00:14:40.440 shoulder is on sparring this is the 1870s it's on the 1870s and grant is thinking across

00:14:46.540 taking across the other side of the ocean.

00:14:48.320 Grant has got Sherman and Sheridan fighting the Plains Indians. 0.76

00:14:53.600 We haven't had a little bighorn yet.

00:14:56.360 No.

00:14:56.520 And he's already on a global scale.

00:14:58.680 This, I say, that second generation was the second great generation we had from the Revolution.

00:15:04.700 You had them.

00:15:06.060 And Manifest Destiny, I say this over and over again, Manifest Destiny was about the Pacific.

00:15:10.820 That America did not end at California in Washington and Oregon.

00:15:15.520 That the Central Pacific, as Mackinder, the great Scotsman, the king of the Scottish Enlightenment, said that Asia, the Central Asia is the pivot to the world island.

00:15:26.000 The 19th century intuitively got that that Central Pacific is the strategic pivot of the United States.

00:15:33.200 And that's why we naturally have to expand to the three island chain.

00:15:37.240 And to understand that, you've got to go to Beijing and become military.

00:15:40.660 And that America has an advantage over its European rivals.

00:15:44.540 Because remember, in the 1870s, 1880s, the European powers are just beginning to carve up China, which has been fatally weakened at the center with the decline of the empire, Chinese empire.

00:15:58.560 They're just beginning to carve out sections of it for themselves as part of colonial rule.

00:16:04.220 America, however, can slip in through the back door, as it were, not by moving east, as the Europeans do, across that landmass, but moving by seaward.

00:16:13.960 the Central Pacific. By the Central Pacific.

00:16:16.280 Which will be the battleground of World War II.

00:16:18.080 So Arthur MacArthur sets to

00:16:20.020 himself, reading everything he can get his hands

00:16:22.060 on about Asia and history,

00:16:23.920 about China, and he

00:16:25.800 writes for Grant this

00:16:28.040 memorandum, which I found

00:16:29.900 in the MacArthur

00:16:31.640 archives. Extraordinary. This memorandum

00:16:34.120 for Grant. The only guy to ever look for.

00:16:35.600 Talking about what America's destiny

00:16:37.960 in the Pacific is going to look like.

00:16:40.480 And he's thinking, and Arthur

00:16:41.840 MacArthur's thinking far beyond just a question

00:16:43.800 of how we can make money there and about trade and commerce.

00:16:46.920 That's part of it.

00:16:48.000 But what he sees in the future, what he sees in the future of Asia

00:16:51.940 and really in the sense of the world,

00:16:53.700 is a confrontation between two ideological forces,

00:16:58.580 one of which he labels as the republic,

00:17:03.380 which we would call today democracy,

00:17:05.140 America being, in his mind, the key representative

00:17:07.960 of that sense of a legacy in ideology based on freedom and liberty,

00:17:12.920 and the other empire. And the empire he's thinking about is Tsarist Russia. But his son,

00:17:20.820 Douglas MacArthur, will absorb from his father, from that Chinese memorandum that his father had

00:17:27.420 written, and from his father's long talks with his father when they go on a tour of Asia,

00:17:34.160 when MacArthur is a young officer in the U.S. Army, and they go on his tour to visit all the

00:17:41.640 major stops there in India and in Indonesia, as well as Japan and also the Philippines.

00:17:51.460 He long talks with his father. He learns that this notion of an eternal struggle between autocracy

00:17:58.800 and democracy is one that Asia will be the cockpit in which that struggle will be played out,

00:18:09.900 And that America has a responsibility, not just to itself, but to the world, to be the representative of democracy in that eternal struggle.

00:18:18.380 But here's why it's so, and I believe you're the only historian and biographer that went and got that memo.

00:18:26.260 Others looked at it and they thought it was very interesting, but it didn't sink in the way it did for me.

00:18:31.680 But here's – if you go back – this is where I had to go back to the book.

00:18:36.320 If you go back to Beijing with President Trump, at the very opening, Xi throws out about Thucydides' trap, the declining power and the rising power from the Peloponnesian Wars.

00:18:48.760 This is what Kissinger and Graham Allison tried to sell in the 70s, 60s and 70s, about the United States' declining power and the Soviet Union as a rising power.

00:18:59.560 This is why we had Carter and even Nixon fell into this trap of trying to get all these arms agreements.

00:19:05.440 It was only Reagan that broke that.

00:19:07.000 Here again, the same thing.

00:19:07.960 It goes back to Arthur MacArthur, MacArthur's father, understanding that there will be a confrontation between these two systems.

00:19:18.700 And it will happen in the Western Pacific and in East Asia.

00:19:22.960 That this is, you know, he thought first the Russians because the Russians were going to take over.

00:19:27.340 It was Russia. 0.76

00:19:27.880 Russia because they had designs on and of course the Soviets worked for years is where they had 0.91

00:19:33.280 now come to to uh Moscow and try to become the the puppeteer of all that but the genius over 0.94

00:19:40.620 century and the sun picks up here's the question I've got as well and his son picks it up yeah and

00:19:45.960 there's another memorandum here which which no one else had found but which I had the archivist

00:19:51.620 there point out to me you know and I realized that I looked at it I would hit gold it was a

00:19:57.100 memorandum that MacArthur drew up for George Marshall during the Korean War, warning what 0.66

00:20:04.180 would happen if the United States backed down against China in the Korean War, that China was

00:20:10.460 poised to become a, if not the major power in Asia, certainly the major military power. And if

00:20:18.800 we didn't stop them here, that the rise of China would be one that would be disrupt and reverberate 0.96

00:20:24.480 and disrupt all of Asia in the course of the next decades, he more than anyone else understood

00:20:34.180 what the real implications of the Chinese revolution that Mao had set in motion were,

00:20:38.360 that it was not just about China, it was about the future of Asia. And if America wasn't there

00:20:43.980 to confront and contain and deal with that challenge coming out of China, that the result 0.89

00:20:51.600 would be that we would end up with a power on our hands that would be almost unstoppable.

00:20:59.760 It's typical of Marshall that after reading the memo, he read it, said, that's very interesting.

00:21:06.660 Now, what are we going to do about the fight in Korea? He didn't have that grand strategy mindset

00:21:12.360 that was not there. But that's one of the reasons he's called the organizer of victory. He was an

00:21:17.360 I want to go back a couple of years.

00:21:19.960 How did we have the victory in the Pacific? 0.87

00:21:28.660 MacArthur is put in as the warlord or the American Caesar in Japan to deal with the Japanese empire 0.70

00:21:34.860 and the industrial might of the seven basic families, samurai families that still run Japan through the trading companies. 0.78

00:21:45.120 Zabatsu.

00:21:45.640 Zabatsu.

00:21:46.720 Okay. He's put there to organize that. How do we allow in those first in the years, 47, 48 and 49, we've just won in that in the Chinese people have lost 35 million casualties minimum in that war.

00:22:03.080 In fact, I always argue the Second World War actually started not in Poland in 39. It actually started in 31. Yeah, that's right. In China. The global conflict started there.

00:22:14.960 Um, how did we, with MacArthur in Japan and just having won this magnificent victory in the Pacific, really with American force of arms and our ally having taken 35 million casualties, how did we allow the state, a handful of people in the State Department?

00:22:36.940 And as you said, General Marshall, who went and kind of hung out with Mao for a week in the mountains,

00:22:44.980 how did we, with MacArthur and Japan, allow them to turn over China to the Chinese Communist Party, sir, in 1949?

00:22:54.080 Well, you know, you've got to understand something about MacArthur.

00:22:57.460 He's an extraordinary figure, particularly in the U.S., in American armed forces and the history of the Army.

00:23:06.940 he is, in many ways, he's the kind of personality that I talk about in Founders Fire. I could have

00:23:12.640 had a chapter on Douglas MacArthur in Founders Fire because he has all of the characteristics

00:23:16.880 of your classic founder. He's got the big vision, right? The greatest grand strategist we've ever

00:23:23.700 had. He's got this drive. I mean, when he's focused on a military campaign, when he's focused

00:23:31.700 on how to reshape and rehabilitate Japan. That's all he's focused on. Every action is dictated 0.65

00:23:39.700 by pushing ahead with that. Founders always get the signal, not the noise. And MacArthur had that

00:23:48.560 kind of gift. He's a hands-on guy, too. In every battle, every landing in the Southwest Pacific

00:23:56.920 fighting against the Japanese. 0.99

00:23:58.380 He's always there, landing on the beach 0.96

00:24:00.980 after the first wave arrives.

00:24:02.760 People are getting shot next to him

00:24:04.320 by Japanese snipers all the time. 1.00

00:24:06.640 But he has to see.

00:24:07.520 I've got to see what's happening.

00:24:09.180 World War I, he was the same way.

00:24:10.920 He was always going over the top,

00:24:13.280 always going over the...

00:24:14.260 Even though he was supposedly a staff officer.

00:24:16.500 Five silver stars, was it?

00:24:18.260 Seven.

00:24:18.960 Seven silver...

00:24:20.360 Because he's got to see what's happening.

00:24:23.460 He's got to understand that, too.

00:24:25.080 and then also to this impatience with opposition of a confidence that every founder needs

00:24:31.680 willing to take big risks and sort of say, this is what I'm going to do, and I don't care what

00:24:36.360 other people, this is the direction forward, and that's the direction I'm going to go.

00:24:40.600 Now, by and large, Steve, founders don't do, that kind of personality doesn't do very well

00:24:46.820 in the military, and for good reason. We have to have something in which there's

00:24:51.720 unit cohesion. There has to be a chain of command. You can't have people going off on their own.

00:24:57.580 And by and large, founder personalities, when they go into the military, tend to have very

00:25:02.060 short careers or tend to end badly. The person I think about is Billy Mitchell,

00:25:07.300 visionary of air power who winds up being court-martialed. MacArthur is unusual in that,

00:25:15.840 even though he has that kind of self-confidence and drive and impatience and charisma,

00:25:21.720 he still manages to have a highly successful, brilliant, spectacular military career.

00:25:28.040 That's real tribute to both his ability, both his own native abilities and his genius,

00:25:35.100 but it's also to his ability to adjust and work and deal with others.

00:25:39.800 But all the way through his career, all the way through his career, he faces intense opposition.

00:25:46.260 Envy, driven by envy in many cases, driven by people who are put off by a rather, shall

00:25:52.320 we say, a domineering personality, a man who always knows he's right and is willing to

00:25:58.780 point that out every chance he gets, and who are always going to be in a situation in which

00:26:05.440 whatever he suggests doing, whatever he wants to do, is probably the wrong thing to do.

00:26:09.740 Reminds me of a certain president, by the way, in current situations, who likewise,

00:26:14.400 whatever he thinks of and so on that's the opposition he's going to face hang on we're

00:26:18.000 taking a short commercial break i want to thank birch gold uh text bannon 98 98 98 get the ultimate

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00:26:28.320 ask them the question why central banks today are buying gold at record rates for the third year in

00:26:32.720 a row why are they doing that and the whole world system goes off the dollars of prime reserve

00:26:37.600 currency you know they had a comment about uh macarthur in world war ii that when somebody

00:26:42.640 Somebody made a comment that says he doesn't have a staff.

00:26:45.080 He has a court, like Louis XIV.

00:26:48.440 Short commercial break.

00:26:49.660 Arthur Herman on the other side.

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00:29:50.020 fellow patriots the federal reserve has betrayed america for over a century printing fiat

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00:30:57.780 Strategic intelligence based upon predictive analytics. It's what chairman and CEO

00:31:02.920 throughout the world read. And you should, too.

00:31:05.660 War Room. Here's your host, Stephen K. Mann.

00:31:13.520 MacArthur.

00:31:14.200 Why MacArthur? You say he's the father of modern Asia.

00:31:18.320 Modern Asia. 0.77

00:31:18.720 You make a very compelling point.

00:31:20.700 He's in Japan at the time, right, as basically the warlord of American Caesar.

00:31:28.020 He's in charge of Allied occupation forces in rebuilding Japan. 0.64

00:31:32.680 And he has made damn sure that the Soviets have no role to play in all of this.

00:31:38.380 The Soviets, of course, would have loved to have a chance to be involved in occupation forces.

00:31:41.980 Isn't it a fact that the Imperial Staff of Japan took two nuclear weapons and were prepared to fight it out,

00:31:48.420 but it was the potential of the Soviets coming in and taking the Northern Ireland,

00:31:51.960 and they saw what the Soviets had done to Germany, that one of the reasons they said,

00:31:56.700 hey, if we're going to have to surrender, we'd rather surrender to the Americans?

00:32:00.180 That may have played into their calculations, but I think it was more that Emperor Hirohito—

00:32:05.480 We can't take two more of these bombs.

00:32:07.140 Again, common sense, right? 0.91

00:32:08.740 He was able to cut through all of the nonsense about that, you know, Japan, our honored demands that we fight this to the end.

00:32:16.240 Fight right to the end, and he said, we can't go on like this.

00:32:18.860 This has to end if we're going to have anything left.

00:32:22.380 So Hirohito reports to MacArthur.

00:32:24.360 I know MacArthur didn't try to—and this is one of the questions. 0.99

00:32:27.360 Why didn't he break up the Zabatsus? 0.94

00:32:30.040 But how does he allow Marshall to spend a week in 1949 with Mao 0.90

00:32:37.560 and get snowed with all these communists in the State Department, 0.64

00:32:40.880 and we come up with a solution of which MacArthur would tell you

00:32:44.020 is the worst possible thing you'd ever do of turning over,

00:32:47.900 as bad as Chiang Kai-shek was, and Stilwell was a great man,

00:32:51.440 as hard as the problem of General Stilwell had controlling him, 0.99

00:32:54.220 because at the end of the day, they are kind of Chinese, right? 0.99

00:32:57.020 Circumstances change. And, you know, Madam X and in Chiang Kai-shek, they were pieces of work. 0.91

00:33:03.360 Right. But you had to. But how do we turn over? It's it. It haunts us today.

00:33:09.960 We, the United States of America, did this. This was an action of us.

00:33:13.420 And Lao Bajing, when I talk to Chinese freedom fighters all the time, they go, hey, look, you guys turned it over to him in 49 when you had control.

00:33:19.900 And then in 1989, when we were in the streets with the goddess of liberty and Tiananmen Square, you know, Bush and those guys bailed him out.

00:33:28.260 And after we threw off these demons or in the process of throwing them off, you turn it back over to him.

00:33:33.680 There's got to be some somehow your deep state or there's something at work in the United States that that somehow likes to have this.

00:33:41.980 And now we've got a situation where we go and President Trump goes out of his way to say what a great guys they are.

00:33:49.900 and how we're going to work together, and we're going to be partners.

00:33:52.400 And they slap us in the face in the first two minutes of the thing.

00:33:56.020 Talk about Thucydides' trap.

00:33:57.420 You're the declining power.

00:33:58.860 We're the rising power.

00:33:59.940 As we know from history, every time the declining power gets out of the way, things are fine.

00:34:05.820 If the declining power tries to impose their system, a catastrophic war goes.

00:34:10.920 So please, please get out of the way.

00:34:12.860 Which is really bad history, first of all.

00:34:14.980 It's terrible history.

00:34:16.660 What I call the Thucydides' trap trap.

00:34:19.900 Because if you try to see the world through those eyes, you're going to be misled in every direction.

00:34:24.160 Tell me about that. That's important. Tell me about that. Why?

00:34:25.520 Well, it's the whole idea that somehow that major conflicts arise because of declining powers versus, quote, rising powers.

00:34:33.180 And that's not true. Wars come about through a whole range of situations and a whole range of conflicts.

00:34:40.960 And even I think my own belief is that to try and understand the rivalry between Athens and Sparta in terms of rising versus declining powers is completely misleading.

00:34:53.240 It doesn't lead to any kind of understanding of ancient Greek history, let alone of how history takes place, falls out elsewhere.

00:35:01.020 If anything of what President Xi said about rising and declining powers, it applies. 0.53

00:35:07.960 The declining power right now is China. 0.96

00:35:10.960 Their economy is in serious, sad shape.

00:35:15.200 Their role in the world is also, they're watching their allies be snatched away one after another.

00:35:21.760 Venezuela, Cuba, and now very likely Iran as well. 0.82

00:35:27.180 Whatever final arrangement, whatever comes out of this conflict, it's going to be a much diminished Iran.

00:35:32.940 It's going to be an Iran which is not going to be a conduit for the military.

00:35:36.960 The Chinese military technology didn't stand up too well in natural combat.

00:35:40.460 And that's been part of one of their big sales pitches. 0.99

00:35:45.100 But we wouldn't have gotten here if we didn't have 1949.

00:35:48.640 How does that happen, particularly when MacArthur's on watch over there?

00:35:53.840 I mean, he's on watch.

00:35:55.980 But, see, here's the challenge.

00:35:58.160 This is the challenge of dealing with MacArthur and that inevitable opposition that he faces.

00:36:03.120 Whatever warnings he has with regard to the dangers of communism in Asia, whatever support he gives to Chiang Kai-shek, who really had been the U.S.'s allies during World War II,

00:36:18.180 and that MacArthur was not alone in believing that Stilwell's advice had been very bad advice 0.61

00:36:27.280 of how to deal with Chiang Kai-shek and the use of the Chinese as allies against Japan,

00:36:34.580 that all of that is going to be, in a sense, discounted.

00:36:37.280 And what instead will be seen as being the outlook for Asia

00:36:43.760 is one that the post-colonial Asia is one

00:36:48.400 which will be built around progressive principles.

00:36:52.560 It'll be one that will open up a whole new era

00:36:55.880 of New Deal-type liberalism spreading across Asia.

00:37:02.880 And I'll tell you someone else who suffered from the same delusion,

00:37:07.360 and that's Mountbatten in India

00:37:09.700 And his view of decolonizing and the end of the British Empire in Asia was that a whole series of these sort of moderate socialist regimes would spring up instead of the enormous chaos and dislocation that resulted, particularly in India afterwards.

00:37:25.440 I've written about that, too. But you have on the one hand, you have a state, you have leading figures in the State Department, China experts who have a grasp and understanding of Chinese language and Chinese history.

00:37:39.700 who are seeing Mao and his forces through the rosy-colored glasses of their own progressive view about what is best for Asia. 0.67

00:37:51.440 That they're agrarian populists.

00:37:52.740 set beside real communist agents who are working inside the State Department and are supporting

00:38:01.560 the efforts on the part to spread this propaganda about what Mao's movement is really all about

00:38:10.820 and about how Mao's connection with the Soviet Union is only tactical, it's only temporary,

00:38:17.160 that eventually they're going to move away from it. We don't have to worry about

00:38:20.620 him becoming part of Moscow's communist domination plans and organization.

00:38:28.700 And I've written about those in my book on Joe McCarthy. 0.58

00:38:31.340 How influential.

00:38:32.620 Your book on McCarthy is magnificent.

00:38:34.580 Because people forget the whole beginning of McCarthy is who lost China.

00:38:40.180 Who lost China.

00:38:40.860 Who lost China.

00:38:41.660 Still one of the most magnificent things I give to people all the time. 1.00

00:38:44.920 Retreat from victory.

00:38:45.880 And he goes onto the Senate floor for six hours and gives one of the most magnificent speeches ever.

00:38:52.960 He just goes through how the United States keeps winning militarily, but we keep losing geopolitically.

00:38:59.220 We give away the game.

00:38:59.940 We give away the game in Eastern Europe.

00:39:01.540 And he says, this can't just be random.

00:39:05.580 And he picks Marshall.

00:39:07.240 And I tell people, I've read every biography of Marshall.

00:39:12.980 Because coming from Breitbart, I know about getting scalps.

00:39:15.880 in the war room he gives that speech mccarthy gives that speech in the uh on the senate floor

00:39:23.740 and uh it's devastating everybody goes to to to marshall because marshall like he is today with

00:39:32.760 the morning joe set and the conventional wisdom is like a godhead and they go you've got to go

00:39:37.200 after this he's a human monument at that point he says but he's called you a traitor you must

00:39:42.000 confront this you must call this guy out this guy's a nothing he's a bad guy you must do it

00:39:47.200 i'm not going to do it it's just not what i do but even worse he announces three weeks later

00:39:53.680 i'm retiring in 90 days because of my wife's health just kind of makes it up and that is a

00:40:00.760 monumental scalp if you read except for you if you read all the biographies of mccarthy

00:40:04.840 they never even mention that gets like a one paragraph thing if you read the things on

00:40:09.500 And Marshall, Pope, he deals with it in like half a page.

00:40:12.980 It is monumental.

00:40:14.100 A U.S. senator went to the floor and gave a six-hour speech that documents line by line.

00:40:20.460 It makes a very compelling case.

00:40:22.040 Remember, coming from Virginia.

00:40:23.720 Oh, I imagine.

00:40:24.160 You revere two people as you come up, Robert E. Lee and General Marshall.

00:40:30.040 General Marshall's thing at Virginia Military Institute is much bigger than Stonewall Jackson's statue.

00:40:37.180 or the grave of Robert E. Lee.

00:40:41.480 So how did that happen?

00:40:43.720 This is what boggles my mind.

00:40:44.860 How did it just happen?

00:40:46.040 We gave away the entire future of the world

00:40:48.700 and all the conflicts to come

00:40:50.620 were done over a period of time.

00:40:52.760 After we were the victors,

00:40:54.200 we had freedoms forged.

00:40:55.720 We had been untouched, right?

00:40:57.520 And we had geniuses like MacArthur

00:40:59.520 that could see the vision

00:41:01.020 of what was going to happen to Asia.

00:41:03.620 Marshall was sold a bill of goods

00:41:05.780 by people he trusted, and those were those State Department experts.

00:41:11.400 Now, some of them had also been sold a bill of goods.

00:41:14.420 I'm not saying all of them were communists.

00:41:15.800 Like by Edward Snow, Red Star.

00:41:17.800 We found out later he's a communist agent.

00:41:20.000 That's right.

00:41:20.760 Or Owen Lattimore is another key figure.

00:41:23.860 We don't have to go through the whole list of these.

00:41:25.420 Even Theodore White and the Time Magazine crowd,

00:41:28.220 before we could change the thunder out of China,

00:41:30.340 because they all thought, they all forced themselves to believe

00:41:34.900 the Marxists inside, but they all force themselves to believe that Mao Zedong and Zhou Enlai were

00:41:41.100 intellectuals and they were agrarian, they were agrarian populists that were going to actually

00:41:46.080 make the little guy run China. It's also important, though, to realize there's another player in this

00:41:50.920 behind the scenes, that as the Chinese civil war is building to a climax and the conflict between

00:41:58.520 nationalist forces led by Chiang Kai-shek and the communist forces is now coming down to

00:42:04.740 a final struggle that you've got within the Treasury Department. You've got a guy by the

00:42:14.060 name of Harry Dexter White, a KGB agent, who has been deliberately manipulating and undermining the

00:42:22.880 currency in China, helping to create the financial chaos on the nationalist side.

00:42:30.000 You're so good.

00:42:30.780 That if you're George Marshall and you look at here, I've been told about these great,

00:42:37.680 these revolutionary warriors who went on this incredible long march, this endurance and guerrilla

00:42:44.920 war that they've been conducting since the 1930s. We have that heroic story. And then I'm looking at

00:42:50.520 this corruption and economic chaos and this force that unless the United States is there

00:42:58.840 providing them with weapons and supplies, they're finished.

00:43:02.160 Which side are you going to choose?

00:43:03.960 Which side looks like the winner in the Chinese history sweepstakes? 0.98

00:43:08.980 Of course it's not.

00:43:09.700 Harry Dexter White's not a grand dude.

00:43:11.340 Harry Dexter White is the father of Bretton Woods.

00:43:14.820 He's the father of the post-world financial institutions.

00:43:17.380 We'll come back to that some other day.

00:43:19.440 We should come back to that other day.

00:43:20.380 We've got about five minutes. I want to go back to your essay.

00:43:25.280 Douglas MacArthur is the father of modern Asia.

00:43:29.540 Give me two or three minutes on that. Why do you make that case?

00:43:32.920 First of all, because he rehabilitates Japan and brings Japan back from basically a broken country,

00:43:41.960 destroyed during the war, into what became the second largest economy in the world.

00:43:47.360 now slips to third, but carries that out. Also because he also rebuilt the Philippines

00:43:55.520 and the way in which Philippines was not only liberated during the war, but also becomes

00:44:00.500 a bastion of American leadership, especially during the Vietnam War. He helps also to keep

00:44:08.700 the Taiwan and independent Taiwan through his advocacy for the important fact that this is,

00:44:17.720 as he puts it, an unsinkable aircraft carrier if it falls into the wrong hands for being able to

00:44:24.480 strike and to threaten U.S. presence anywhere in the Pacific. And then also, too, I think,

00:44:30.900 because he understood that what was happening in China with its entry into the Korean War

00:44:37.580 was not just an historical mistake.

00:44:42.040 It wasn't just because American troops...

00:44:43.120 People don't realize the real part of the Korean War

00:44:45.680 is we fought the Chinese army.

00:44:47.300 We fought it, that's right. 1.00

00:44:49.220 Mono a mono. 1.00

00:44:50.060 That's why there's never been, it's still an armistice. 0.55

00:44:52.580 We fought to a draw.

00:44:53.600 But this was not just a battle, not just a Korean civil war. 0.96

00:44:56.460 This was about China's emergence as a dangerous power in the world. 0.90

00:45:00.980 And then America had to respond appropriately to that threat.

00:45:06.080 His advice was disregarded.

00:45:09.600 The idea was, now we've got to end this conflict as quickly as possible,

00:45:12.500 drop an armistice, and let's move on. 0.63

00:45:15.600 But it was then the rise of China. 0.73

00:45:18.360 He was fired because of this. 0.94

00:45:19.400 He was fired because of this.

00:45:20.280 Because he saw it as a moment in which the United States had to choose,

00:45:26.020 again, like his father had said, between empire.

00:45:28.920 At the nominating convention for Dwight D. Eisenhower in 1952,

00:45:35.320 Someone turned to MacArthur when they were watching on TV and said, tell me about Eisenhower.

00:45:42.640 He had worked for you for many years.

00:45:44.640 Many years.

00:45:45.920 He goes, Dwight Eisenhower is the best clerk that ever worked for me.

00:45:52.580 Why did Eisenhower end up being president and not Douglas MacArthur?

00:45:58.400 Do you want to do another program on that?

00:45:59.940 Give us a tee-up to the next one.

00:46:03.060 And he meant it.

00:46:08.060 He says, the best clerk that ever worked for me.

00:46:10.560 Why did he feel that?

00:46:13.080 And why was he not in that nominating committee becoming president of the United States?

00:46:16.460 I think it had to do with Korea.

00:46:18.360 And I think that was what Eisenhower promised to do in Korea.

00:46:21.200 Remember his famous state.

00:46:22.340 You may not remember.

00:46:23.040 You're not old enough.

00:46:24.000 His famous state. 0.99

00:46:24.680 I will go to Korea.

00:46:26.240 And the idea was, he's the man who will wind this conflict down.

00:46:29.680 Douglas MacArthur is the one who said. 1.00

00:46:31.220 It was the Iran of its day. 1.00

00:46:33.400 That's a really good comparison. 0.99

00:46:35.000 No, people just wanted out.

00:46:35.860 People wanted to get this done.

00:46:37.360 They were more weary that it's tired, and this war is so brutal.

00:46:39.400 But I'll put it this way. 0.80

00:46:40.840 If we had followed Douglas MacArthur's advice during the Korean War, there would have been no Vietnam. 0.66

00:46:47.860 There would have been no Vietnam War. 0.53

00:46:49.020 What do you mean by that?

00:46:50.000 His advice was to lay down a wall of radiation at the Yalu River.

00:46:55.240 If necessary. 0.89

00:46:55.960 We turned to that.

00:46:57.420 But his point was, is that, and I think if you look at military analysts who come to understand what the situation was during the Korean War, and also in China in 1950, 51, that what he realized was that Mao's move and his advance into Korea was also an act of desperation.

00:47:19.100 that his government, his rule was vulnerable at that moment,

00:47:24.740 that China had committed, Mao had committed so many forces,

00:47:29.060 so much of his military force to the fighting in Korea,

00:47:32.740 of which he was taking a terrible beating, terrible beating.

00:47:36.980 China was losing by the tens of thousands in the face of the American response

00:47:44.080 that the moment had come when you would be able to topple the regime.

00:47:49.100 Mao's regime was vulnerable, and if America moved boldly and swiftly enough, particularly 0.75

00:47:55.520 if we unleashed Chiang Kai-shek and his divisions still mobilized, still ready for action on

00:48:04.100 the island of Formosa in Taiwan, that the possibility would come, if not actually to

00:48:10.700 topple Mao's regime entirely, to force a partition of China in a way that would be

00:48:18.480 beneficial to the United States and the West, and it would truncate both Mao's plans for domination

00:48:25.980 in Asia, but also Soviet Union's plans for domination as well. We've got to bounce, got a

00:48:31.340 couple of minutes. Do you still write every, do you research or write for new books every day?

00:48:37.120 For every day, no, but I'm always on the lookout for new ideas and where to go. And as I, the way

00:48:43.680 I like to put it is each book, they're like stepping stones. Each book leads to the next one

00:48:49.300 and leads to the next one. So from the point of view of what Founders Fire is about and what it

00:48:56.660 is I learned, because every time I write a book, it's about learning something new. That's one of

00:49:01.260 the things that draws me on. But one of the other things that happens in the process of writing a

00:49:06.640 book is something else appears on the horizon. And I'd say, that's a really interesting subject.

00:49:12.560 I'd like to learn more about that, and that puts me out.

00:49:15.340 Founder's Fire is such a great way to celebrate the 250th.

00:49:19.580 It's a very different take on everything.

00:49:21.280 I think it's very powerful.

00:49:22.440 Where do people go to get your writings?

00:49:24.340 Where do they go to get your books?

00:49:26.500 Well, one of the best places to get my books is, of course, Amazon, Barnes & Noble.

00:49:32.360 Pick up Founder's Fire, Freedom's Forge, Douglas MacArthur, and the others.

00:49:36.440 How the Scots invented the modern world. 0.97

00:49:37.640 How the Scots invented the modern world.

00:49:38.940 New York Times bestseller when it came out.

00:49:41.180 and still standing strong.

00:49:43.920 Listen, for Father's Day, if you have a father or if you have a son,

00:49:50.000 you can't do this.

00:49:51.140 Go to his site or go to Amazon, look through all the books.

00:49:54.980 You'll find two or three you'll want to give, and they're just spectacular.

00:49:58.000 And you can find my writings in Wall Street Journal

00:49:59.940 and also in a new online newsletter called Civitas Outlook.

00:50:06.280 Civitas Institute, based at University of Texas, Austin.

00:50:09.120 I've got an association with them.

00:50:10.980 Wow. And I publish essays there on a regular basis. In fact, the essay we talked about, about the two enlightenments, French Enlightenment, you'll find it in the Civitas Outlook.

00:50:21.040 I want to thank you for joining us, taking this time.

00:50:23.520 Always a pleasure.

00:50:24.540 Are you going to be, is there any book signing or some public event you're going to be at in the next week or two?

00:50:28.720 Oh, there's good. There's a number of those.

00:50:30.500 Are they up on your site? Okay, fine.

00:50:32.080 Keep you informed.

00:50:33.140 Arthur Herman, thank you so much. Such an honor.

00:50:35.120 Thanks, Steve.

00:50:35.220 Always a heavy year in the war room.

00:50:37.080 Always.

00:50:37.340 We're going to actually leave with the right stuff.

00:50:41.180 We don't play the right stuff too often anymore.

00:50:44.760 We're going to do it today because I think it talks about the great.

00:50:51.520 It speaks so much for America, the space program and the culmination, everything that you talked about in our better days.

00:50:58.380 I will see you tomorrow morning at 10 a.m. when you'll be back in the world.

00:51:07.340 Thank you.

00:51:37.340 Thank you.

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00:53:17.780 Call 845-WAR-ROOM right now.

00:53:19.620 That's 845-WAR-ROOM.

00:53:21.380 Tell them Bannon sent you.

00:53:23.400 Now listen, in the first couple of days of the launch of this company with the War and Posse,

00:53:27.220 Posse members saved tens and up to hundreds of thousands collectively of dollars in these fees.

00:53:34.800 Go check it out today. That's chapter. Call 845-WAR-ROOM. Do it today.

Bannon's War Room - June 03, 2026

WarRoom Battleground EP 1022： The Founder's Mentality Of The United States Pt 2

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