00:05:33.380I don't know if that will be enough to put out the flames metaphorically and literally.
00:05:39.440But this is really feeling like an insurgency environment.
00:05:45.140And I don't mean to be hysterical and I don't mean to be alarmist by that. But what I mean is that what we're dealing with are multiple sort of theaters of conflict, multiple threads of conflict, both historical and active.
00:06:04.680And it's a very murky and increasingly, I think, sinister picture in terms of how it's being manipulated both in the media and on social media.
00:06:17.360I want to make the point for our Thursday audience who might not be familiar, as familiar as the Wednesday audience with Jenny's output.
00:06:27.500But Jenny, when she says that she doesn't want to be alarmist about this, Jenny's background is basically within the progressive milieu.
00:06:35.920And as I think one of the best commentators in the world, especially on the arena of Gen Z and the increasing conservative and religious aspects of Gen Z across the West,
00:06:50.240In being such an astute observer of these trends and others and some certain failings within liberal progressive ideology, Jenny herself has plotted a course retaining, I think, authentic to a lot of what liberal progressivism stands for.
00:07:08.340But unlike most liberal progressive commentators, Jenny Holland is extremely alive to the faults and the excesses within that.
00:07:19.460That's what she spends a lot of time writing about on Substack and also bringing her research and analysis to our Wednesday orders.
00:07:30.100And I make that point. So when Jenny's there saying that she doesn't want to be alarmist about this, I mean, I could say I quite easily say alarmist things quite happily.
00:07:41.360But for Jenny to come out and say these things, it is it is going somewhat against the temperamental strain, if you will.
00:07:52.180um jenny so that said i want to pick your brain i want to know what you think because you and i've
00:07:58.620been sort of looking at the news here me as an external observer you as you point out you're
00:08:04.240living there right at the heart of this and one of the things we were chatting about before the show
00:08:10.880um and indeed you know we spoke about it on the wednesday show yesterday in something that you
00:08:16.300mentioned on your gb news piece this morning which is how the elites are reacting to the crisis
00:08:23.980um and it's water cannons for the protesters really not for the people who are illegally
00:08:29.380breaking into the country um so you know what if they turn the water cannons on the people who are
00:08:35.500breaking illegally into the country i think a lot of the actual latest anger that we see bubbling
00:08:40.120up would dissipate within minutes um what i want to ask you about is that the present leader of the
00:08:47.000conservative party has come out with this um kami badenoch has come out with the most outrageous
00:08:54.400uh you know political maneuver and she's actually blaming of all things reform nigel farage's
00:09:04.020reform party that's never been in government never been anywhere near government uh since
00:09:09.160This has been founded. And yet the Tory party is now saying, you know, it's all reforms for how, why is this all reforms for because two defectors who were disgusted with the Tory party's performative response on the invasion issue left the Tory party.
00:09:30.900They left governing positions. They left the Tory party and defected. They crossed the floor, as we say in UK parliamentary terms, and joined Nigel Farage's quite small parliamentary representation.
00:09:45.420And that's, we're talking about Robert Jenrick here, who was immigration minister under Rishi Sunak, and Suella Braverman, who was Home Secretary, as we say in the UK.
00:09:55.620Americans will use, I think, Interior Secretary or something like that.
00:11:53.760It's like a set of nested Russian dolls of blame.
00:11:57.400And it really, I mean, you have to laugh because the situation is so dire in the UK0.97
00:12:02.500with these sort of snowballing crimes.
00:12:06.360And this is what the political class is doing.0.65
00:12:09.080They're just standing around a circular firing squad pointing fingers at each other.
00:12:13.700However, I'm going to actually push back slightly in that there is one tiny way
00:12:17.380in which that landed, although I agree with all of your points that it was Kemi's party that
00:12:23.200oversaw all of these policies and is probably going to go down in history as the party of the
00:12:29.480Boris wave, so named for her predecessor, Boris Johnson, who LARPed as a sort of have-a-go populist,
00:12:38.100but turned out to be a big fan of unvetted military-age men arriving on small boats in
00:12:45.900infinity numbers. But one thing that happened when Suella Braverman and Robert Jenrick defected from
00:12:51.960the Conservative Party to join reform is that it did cause some discontent among the base,
00:12:58.140the right wing base in the UK as to why are we letting in architects of these Tory immigration
00:13:06.100policies. So actually, I think that's sort of a weakness that is easily exploitable. And
00:13:12.860I can be did attempt to do that. You know, I take your point that it was not successful and it made her sort of cover herself in shame.
00:13:19.240But, you know, politics is a dirty game. And it's really hard to see how anyone with links to the Tory party.
00:13:29.580And I don't say this with any partisan glee at all. I'm not really a I don't being half American, half Irish.
00:13:37.300I don't really have a dog in this fight, I suppose.1.00
00:13:40.720You know, the Tory brand is forever tainted and reform beware on taking on Tory refugees or asylum seekers, shall we call them.1.00
00:13:52.320No, we'll call them invaders here on the war, Jenny.1.00
00:13:57.440That's our preferred term here, third world.0.98
00:14:00.660I was referring to Jen Rick and Sue Ellen Braverman.
00:14:03.260um jenny stay with us stay with us now go on carry on i think there's maybe they're seeking
00:14:11.960asylum from the terrible tory policies uh they're seeking asylum with reform i think half that half
00:14:19.160the countries uh is seeking asylum uh as um as uh political refugees from the toy party right now
00:14:27.840Hold on, Jenny. I'll give a quick shout out to the sponsor of the first half of the show today, Birch Gold.
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00:15:39.240so if you want to know how that pans out well 10 years ago one ounce of gold was about 1200
00:15:48.100and today it's 4500 massive increase uh over the last 10 years so you might expect
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00:17:06.660They rounded up all the asylum claims from six countries, the Afghans, Eritreans, Libyans, Syrians, Yemenis, as well as Sudanese.
00:17:17.640And they basically started giving them face-to-face interviews to make sure that what they were saying was true and also verifying it and checking it before letting people into the country.
00:17:30.680They just sort of emailed that a 12-page questionnaire and let people say whatever they wanted and it was stamp done in.
00:17:38.820And that's how the Conservative Party, the then Conservative government, eliminated the claim of 90,000 asylum claims backlogs.
00:17:51.300You know, you and I, we travel occasionally, Jenny.
00:17:54.380It's more difficult to get into the UK with a British passport at the airport these days than what it is.
00:18:00.660you know if you're a taxpayer with a with a regular job britain a british born in britain
00:18:06.460then someone who's basically comes off the boat off the dinghy off the north coast of france
00:18:10.260goes straight into the hotels to the buff the three three square buffet meals a day plus the
00:18:16.480cash handouts that they get um and then they're just oh you know we won't bother checking your
00:18:22.760papers because you don't have any papers anyway because you ripped it up when you were mid-channel
00:18:26.860threw it into the sea um so look whatever you're going to say to us we have no way of verifying
00:18:31.600but stamp on the paper hey come on in um and you know ordinary british citizens are being hacked at
00:18:41.640um on the streets as a consequence of this astonishing state defense and you and i both
00:18:47.380studying this both both homed in on this same fact that that's basically what they were doing
00:18:52.080has now come to light. That's how this performative, pathetic, disgusting excuse of a conservative0.99
00:18:59.080government dealt with its claim of 90,000 claim backlog. That is really striking to me when I saw0.95
00:19:08.420that. I was really taken aback because just as a lay woman observer paying attention to the news,
00:19:16.960I can tell you that the nationalities, Afghan, Eritrean, Sudanese, these nationalities crop up very often in reports of crimes being committed, sex crimes being committed, especially against British women and girls.
00:19:36.300It's just something I happen to note.0.52
00:19:37.760So when I saw that those countries in particular, of all the countries, and then the article basically says that the civil servants who put this policy through were sort of bleeding hearts, who thought, oh no, these are such terrible war-torn countries, we have to let these people in without checking.
00:19:57.240You know, I would love to know how many of those 90,000 were women, how many of them were women versus how many of them were just men of military age who just wanted to come here.
00:20:09.220And then in recent breaking news that the alleged stabber, we say alleged he has now been charged.
00:20:17.580And we know there's lots of rules around what you can say when someone's charged.
00:20:21.980He he was a policeman back home in his country of Sudan.0.63
00:20:27.240And that begs the question, why was he being fast-tracked like some poor wretch who would be welcomed in by the Statue of Liberty inscription who just came to make a better life in, of all places, Duncairn on the Antrim Road in North Belfast, which I said to you yesterday, is a very, very low-income area.0.98
00:20:53.600It is not a place where you want to end up.0.99
00:20:57.240bring me your huddled axe-wielding maniacs yearning to kill.1.00
00:21:08.360And of course, the spin is very sophisticated
00:21:12.040and there is an absolute propaganda operation underway among people now,
00:21:19.620just regular people in Northern Ireland
00:21:22.060who are sort of being given talking points via social media groups as to what is the proper way to think and process and discuss this appalling violence that was committed the other night upon this random man, Stephen Ogilvie.
00:21:40.720You know, groups, let's say like progressive groups in Belfast are sharing a document telling them that they shouldn't focus on the crime itself, and the crime itself was random and had nothing to do with where the supposed attacker happened to be born, but rather it's an opportunity to come together.
00:22:04.000And it's very similar to the nudge units that have been reported on extensively in mainland UK after things like the Manchester Arena bombing, when they put together a little propaganda campaign telling us to go out and hug some refugees because, no, they didn't really mean to blow us up.
00:22:21.400We actually love each other very much when we get along.
00:22:25.120This is very sophisticated operational tactics.0.76
00:22:33.520mostly peaceful beheaders yes we've got about what did you say mostly peaceful beheaders
00:22:40.820they're mostly peaceful beheaders um i'm making a note of that um look we've got about three
00:22:48.380minutes left here there is something um uh i want i i want to quickly take your get your reading on
00:22:55.720because you did mention this and it is important and i think there's an element of truth to it
00:23:00.820And that is the reference to, you know, you're talking about the Russian doll of blame avoidance.
00:23:09.200But there is, I think, a truth in the suggestion that to some extent we are bound by the obligations of the European Convention on Human Rights
00:23:23.920and the unquoted, up until now, Dublin Treaty,
00:23:27.920which requires nations in Europe to take asylum seekers
00:23:35.980from sort of outside the Convention's signatory block.
00:23:42.620I mean, I think that is a legitimate thing.
00:23:46.400When Rishi Sunak says, it wasn't me, it was the civil servants,
00:23:49.180and the civil servants say, well, it's not us,
00:23:51.000it's the European Convention of Human Rights.
00:23:53.920There is an element of truth on that, right? And I say that not to help these guys, because I loathe and hate them. I think they should all be in prison, our political class. But there is an element of truth in that.0.84
00:24:09.580And I ask you this in like the 60 seconds you've got to respond is, if therefore, dot, dot, dot, if the British people really want to take charge of the invasion crisis with both hands, we do need to leave the European Convention, right?
00:24:28.000Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, there needs to be a very clean break between all of the sort of old establishment ties.
00:24:34.720And, you know, that's a very big ask. You know, we see in the States how hard it's been for Trump to take a sledgehammer to the soft power deep state permanent government apparatus.
00:24:49.800It would be, I think, 10 times hard as hard here. Really, really quickly, actually, you know how we are always talking about Gen Z.0.62
00:24:56.720I think I think one of the things I've noticed on the ground here in just from gauging social media posts amongst the working class communities, of course, Northern Ireland famously sectarian divided right between Catholics, Republicans and loyalist Protestants.
00:25:14.700One thing, and I only have two data points on this, but one thing we should keep an eye on going forward is I'm beginning to wonder if the younger generation, say Gen Z adults, not the teenagers, but the teenagers and the young adults, and maybe slightly older, are not falling for the sectarian divide as much.
00:25:36.360I think the Republican community traditionally is very pro-Palestinian, very pro-migrant.
00:25:43.680The Republican terrorist paramilitaries had ties to Arab terrorist groups going way back to the 70s.
00:25:52.640I'm wondering if the younger generation of people living in regular neighborhoods is becoming more influenced by the podcast and alt-right, for lack of a better phrase, discourse,
00:26:04.100and are more willing to come together with their Protestant peers.
00:26:09.460That's something I will be looking out for.
00:26:12.140That would make a great deal of sense because they had their formation of adults
00:26:15.800post-troubles after the Good Friday Agreement.
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00:32:04.560welcome back well i think from about late 2024 on which there's been a number of
00:32:12.540developments in a particular story here that we're going to be discussing for the second
00:32:17.860half of the show and that is in Poland they have recently started I think it was in March they
00:32:24.740might have signed off my next guest will go into the details on this but the the Warsaw the capital
00:32:30.640of Poland signed off on the mayor and under the mayor's instruction signed off on the first
00:32:36.360recognition in Poland of a homosexual marriage which had been confected if that's the word
00:32:43.940in Germany. And the reason the backlog to this is a sentence from the European Union Court of
00:32:55.180Justice, which is the highest court of justice within the European Union, which said, which
00:33:01.140placed the obligation on member states to transpose these, or marriages that are legal
00:33:10.360elsewhere in the union into all member states.
00:39:15.700They took this ruling of that, your own court in Poland,
00:39:18.620and said, this is binding here in Poland,
00:39:21.360therefore it needs to be implemented in Poland.
00:39:24.060And the mayor of Warsaw took that judgment of the Polish court
00:39:29.300and said, okay, so therefore I'm obliged, therefore,
00:39:33.800I think he was willingly obliging himself to follow the dictates.
00:39:40.860My question for you, it's a technical question, right?
00:39:43.580Now you're wheeling back from that, you're zooming out on that,
00:39:46.740Ordo Joris is saying, this is the position, let's pull back and see whether the European Union Courts of Justice actually has the jurisdiction to have issued that ruling in the first place.
00:39:57.040And it's pretty clear that it doesn't, for the reasons that you've just given.
00:40:04.460And I want to give the benefit of the doubt to the Polish Supreme Administrative Court here.
00:40:10.060Had that the European Union Court of Justice ruling been legitimate, as in had that court, the actual jurisdiction to have produced that sentence, it would be binding on the Polish state to implement that in Poland, right?
00:40:35.500The thing is that in the Polish Constitution, you have Article 18 of the Polish Constitution which defines marriage as the union of a woman and a man.
00:40:47.460And the supremacy of EU law over national law does not cover national constitutions.
00:40:56.920Although you have a conflict on this, the Court of Justice of the European Union says that it does.
00:41:02.540But several courts of justice of member states have said in the past that it doesn't, including the Polish Constitutional Tribunal.
00:41:12.560So even if it was in its jurisdiction, it could not apply without a change in the Polish Constitution first.
00:41:21.520And there's also another point is that it's not the Supreme Administrative Court, it's a panel of three judges.
00:41:29.360And it's very important to understand that, because in 2019, there was a judgment, a ruling by an extended panel of the same court, of the Supreme Administrative Court, which said that gay marriage or same-sex marriage could not be transposed in Polish civil registries.
00:41:49.920And in Polish law, a panel of three judges cannot overrule this extended panel of seven
00:45:29.620Stay with us, Olivier. Back to continue this towards the end and the last five minutes of the show.
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00:49:53.600What happens? You filed, I think, like two or three weeks ago, this amicus briefing in support of the law and justice members of parliament.
00:50:03.460What happens next when you expect to get a response or a definitive ruling?
00:50:08.140We're calling. We just had a press conference this afternoon.
00:50:11.800We are calling on local governments and on civil servants at the local level in the civil registries
00:50:21.320to refuse to transcribe such unlawful acts of marriage, and we promise them free legal
00:50:30.200assistance by our lawyers if needed, if they get into trouble because of this.
00:50:36.920We've reminded them that if they do transcribe those marriages, those acts of marriages,
00:50:43.240of marriage, they could get into trouble after a change of government, because that would be
00:50:48.040breaking the law. And we've issued today a brochure that explains them what is the real
00:50:55.960state of the law and how they should act. And we're organizing a webinar next week for local
00:51:03.080governance and for uh for those civil servants at the local level too that's um that's very clever
00:51:12.040of you to remind civil servants and officials that they're not going to be in power or at least be
00:51:18.680operating under the the free movement of donald tusk for the prime minister forever there will be
00:51:27.080uh at some point and they will need to be held responsible for their actions now
00:51:32.280if their actions are found at a future date to be quite clearly against the law that's a smart move
00:51:37.960i think to remind people that they will be a public officials especially that they will be
00:51:42.840accountable for for what they do um olivier beau where did people go to find out more about order
00:51:49.320your wrist or to keep up with your analysis on social media so on social media we have
00:51:56.120We have an English language social account on X and on Facebook, that's Ordo Iuris International.
00:52:03.600And using translators, automatic translators, you get even more materials on our Ordo Iuris Polish language profiles.
00:52:11.960And you can go on our webpage, Ordo Iuris.pl, which is also in English.
00:52:18.540And I just want to point out that's Iuris, I-U-R-I-S, Ordo Iuris.
00:52:24.600Olivier Boe, thanks so much for coming on the show.