WarRoom Battleground EP 773： The Dark World Of Organ Harvesting And Human Trafficking
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Summary
In 2004, Peiming Cheng was released from a Chinese prison after serving eight years in prison for practicing Falun Gong. He went on to seek asylum in the United States, where he was able to get a new life. But when he returned to China, he found himself in handcuffs and shackles.
Transcript
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So, David, never in a million years did I expect that I would meet an actual survivor
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of forced organ harvesting, of this barbaric practice that the Chinese regime has been
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involved in for decades. Tell me about Mr. Cheng's case.
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I could see in terms of the raw data, there's something there, because
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he's obviously a Falun Gong practitioner. He's obviously been organ harvested because we've got
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the medical reports. I mean, the x-rays don't lie. So, I spent a fair amount of time basically
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just kind of getting the chronology, the names, and the dates, and so on.
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My name is Peiming Cheng. In November 2004, I was forcibly taken from Daxing Prison to the
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4th Hospital of Daxing, where they did a surgery on me. This is my surgery scar.
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Today, as I stand here, I may appear normal. I walk and speak normally. But in reality,
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My left side is in constant pain, and it throbs with every beat of my pulse.
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At night, I struggle to breathe when I lie down, and it is truly unbearable.
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Peiming Cheng was able to come to America with the help of former Assistant Secretary of State for
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Democracy, Human Rights and Labor, Robert Destro. What did it take to get Mr. Cheng here? Because I
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understand there was a bounty on his head. There was a bounty on his head. He was hiding in Thailand.
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And when I heard about the case, I said, well, let's get him out. And so we had to negotiate with the
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Thai government because he wasn't in Thailand legally. So we got him out, and we brought him
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here. And the rest is history. We put him through extensive medical testing and imaging and everything
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else. And it's pretty clear consensus that they took stuff out. We are now confirming the suspicions
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we've had for all these years that Mr. Cheng was a victim of forced organ harvesting. We now know that,
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and the Chinese have confirmed the details. Well, so explain to me about that. How is it that they
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could have possibly confirmed the details? Well, they confirmed that the surgery happened. You know,
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they confirmed where it happened. They confirmed when it happened. And what we were able to do,
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because we were able to get Mr. Cheng here in the United States, we were able to get independent experts
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to look inside and see what's missing. We confirmed that part.
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At the time, Cheng had been serving an eight-year sentence and had endured extreme torture
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and repeated electric shocks. The Chinese regime claims the surgery was to help him,
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after Cheng, in protest of his persecution, swallowed a small blunt nail and blade. But medical experts say
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there's no reasonable scenario where the operation, which removed significant portions of Cheng's liver
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and lung, could have been to retrieve such swallowed items. As the record shows, they didn't need to go
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into his side all the way around his back and through his chest. They could have gone down into his
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esophagus with an endoscope and pulled everything out. They were fishing.
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You, of course, are speaking to the sort of official...
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Is it surprising to you that there was any official narrative at all?
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Yes, I'm amazed that there's any official narrative at all. They've engaged on the conversation.
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And as we lawyers would say, that's an admission against interest.
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This is the primal scream of a dying regime. Pray for our enemies, because we're going to medieval
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on these people. You're just not going to get a free shot at all these networks lying about the
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people. The people have had a belly full of it. I know you don't like hearing that. I know you try
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to do everything in the world to stop that, but you're not going to stop it. It's going to happen.
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And where do people like that go to share the big line? Mega Media. I wish in my soul, I wish
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that any of these people had a conscience. Ask yourself, what is my task and what is my purpose?
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If that answer is to save my country, this country will be saved.
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It's Wednesday, 21 May, Year of the Lord 2025. Thank you for being here for the second hour of
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our late afternoon, early evening show. I've wanted to do this for a long time. You saw that horrific
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cold open. Jan Yekalik joins me. Jan, a huge fan, Epoch Times, an amazing show and a great
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investigative reporter in the best broadsheet in this nation, the Epoch Times. I've also asked
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Liz Yor and Ben Harnwell to join me, Ben from Rome, because this speaks to a bigger issue.
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You're an expert on this situation with organ harvesting by the Chinese Communist Party.
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It is so barbaric, so incomprehensible. And one of the reasons I've asked the other folks on here,
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because the persecution of Falun Gong and the persecution of the Catholic Church and the underground
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evangelical Christians is so out of control with the Chinese Communist Party. And the rest of the
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world just looks the other way, including the Catholic Church, which has a secret deal with
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them. And I know I saw you on the one of the webinars on the committee on the present danger
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of China, which I'm one of the founders was so brilliant. But let's start with
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in the 21st century. It's so barbaric. I think we almost have to explain to people how this actually
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goes on, because people are saying, well, hang on. We give these people plenty of capital. We have
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commerce. President Trump's talking about a deal now with these guys. We're not going to cut them off.
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We're going to, you know, it's not going to, we're not going to uncouple, maybe strategically uncouple.
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But this barbaric practice and the Catholic Church has to deal with these guys, let them select the
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bishops. Walk me through the organ harvesting part of this. How do you get interested? How
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you came upon this and how you became kind of, I guess, the expert in the West on this?
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Well, Steve, first of all, thank you so much for having me on. You know, while you were
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indisposed, if I'll say that lightly, Kash Patel was hosting for you and had me on a little bit about
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this. And I was incredibly grateful. It was such a huge response. The issue with this, for starters,
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is that it's a crime that is something that people don't want to believe. There's in fact,
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there's a film called Hard to Believe about it. I mean, we're talking about at scale,
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state sanctioned murder for organs, people, prisoners of conscience in the forced labor camps, in the dark
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black jails, in the prisons, being blood type, tissue type, medically tested ahead of time to
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the tune of, I don't know how many, but hundreds of thousands, if not millions, and then ready to
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be killed to order by the regime. And I might add, you know, this is something we know has been
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happening at scale, you know, something 60 to 90,000 a year of these transplants that are happening
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with really no credible organ source, right? There's no credible organ donor registry. We could talk about
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that. When you say at scale, explain that to people, your whole preamble at scale.
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This is an industrial process. This is just not one or two bad guys trying to do this for money or
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some mad scientist at some, at some jail or some prison. This is actually state sanctioned.
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It's an industrial process. It's very much like the industrial process to eradicate the Jews
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during the Holocaust was an industrial. If you've ever been to the camps, you see how the,
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the German engineering mind thought this down to the, to the, to the, you know,
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the, the microeconomics of it. You're saying that this is the same type of thing?
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Well, so this is, that's a really interesting question, Steve. You know, there's in 2000,
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or pardon me, in 2020, the China Tribunal was convened by a guy named Sir Jeffrey Neese. And Sir
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Jeffrey basically got all the experts. And I would add, I'm not really the expert. There's a few out there
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that are, I would call the experts like David Matus, Ethan Guttman. A number of people have
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dedicated their lives to this issue. Torsten Trey is another one. I'm kind of de facto an expert
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because I've been covering it for 19 years and I just know more about it than most people.
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But no. So, so here's the issue. The China Tribunal is the definitive body of information.
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They took a year to gather all of the evidence they could. Chinatribunal.com. That's the website.
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If you want to understand this, the breadth of this huge body of information, but here's what
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they struggled with. They asked themselves, is this genocide, right? Because this, this is a much
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abused word these days, but, but genocide is the intent to eradicate a group of people in whole or in
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part that intent, like the Holocaust, like the Holocaust. Exactly. And so what they struggled with
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was, you know, David Matus estimates it's about, I think he said a $9 billion annual industry over there.
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So, you know, there's a significant profit motive. So what they struggled with is, well, if, if, if the,
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if there's this profit motive, maybe the motive isn't a rat, isn't to destroy the group of people.
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So we might not quite be genocide. Maybe it's just a horrible crime against humanity. I mean,
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I'm being a little bit glib here, but, but that's the level of debate. The question is, is it, you know,
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fully intentional? But of course we know there's a level of intent because Jiang Zemin back in 1999,
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where he, when he outlawed Falun Gong and said, in his words, eradicate this group,
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he wasn't necessarily saying kill everybody. Part of it was transform them, reeducate them. And if
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they're, if they comply, you know, we can, we can let them go. But what, what happens when you use
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that type of language, that's actually genocidal language, because if the people don't comply,
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and it turned out that the Falun Gong were unusually resistant to this horrible, horrible things they did
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to them, I won't even go to the, into the details. I mean, like totally medieval methods of torture and
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horror to basically, you know, all Falun Gong deaths, this was an unwritten rule would be considered
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suicides, right? Because you basically meaning you can work on this person to do whatever.
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The point was when they turned out to be so resistant to, to be able to, to this transformation,
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well, I guess, I guess it has to be death then, right? I mean, I'm not, I don't know,
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someone was exactly thinking that, but that's, that's the logical conclusion. So, you know,
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Bob Destro, former Assistant Secretary of State for DRL back in Trump 45, he believes it's a genocide,
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you know, along with Tibetans and Uyghurs, which are the Uyghurs are the official
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group that's being genocided in China. This is something we forget. We talk about making deals,
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we talk about doing this, there's like, they are, you know, it's very difficult to get someone to say,
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yes, a real actual genocide is happening. Then our entire eradication of an entire group of people,
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we officially believe that. Well, the US government believes that according to at least one group,
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I would argue at least three in communist China. So, you know, you got to be careful when you're
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dealing with the literally genocidal regime. When you talk about prisoners are conscious
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in industrial scale at scale, and in 60 to 90,000 a year of these parts are organ
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harvested. So that must be from individuals. Are these prisoners of conscience principally
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Falun Gong? Do they use this as a target Falun Gong, the spiritual practice because of this?
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That's a great question. So when you look at the growth of the organ industry in China,
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and keep in mind, there's no organ registry, right? They're basically, from what we know,
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they were using people that were, you know, quote unquote, disposable people. Actually,
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one of the earliest accounts of this organ harvesting happening from a prisoner
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is by a Uyghur surgeon who I've spoken with. Now, basically, it's the China Tribunal that came up
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with this 60 to 90,000. That's kind of where it got to. But at the beginning, if you chart the
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persecution of Falun Gong beginning in 1999, that's exactly when the whole organ industry takes off
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stratospherically in exponential growth from basically 1999 to 2000.
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Was it some twisted individual that said, we can monetize these people, and in doing it,
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terrorize them so much that they'll give up the spiritual practice?
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So we don't know who that is. I have some theories about it actually myself, but we don't have any
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definitive evidence. We do know that in the Communist Party mentality and approach,
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if you are deemed an enemy of the state, if you are deemed, you basically become disposable. I mean,
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they kind of see people in general as disposable, but there's an extra level of contempt. And that's
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why there was this huge propaganda campaign that was launched. I mean, they said these people eat
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their children, they burn themselves alive, all sorts of really extreme things, because you had a group
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that was incredibly popular in the 90s. I mean, to the 60, it was a 70 to 100,000, sorry, 100 million
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people were practicing this in China. In mainland China. In mainland China, per government estimate,
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right? Just through the 90s, right? I've never seen it in Hong Kong in the mid-90s, I guess it was.
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And I asked somebody what it was, and they said it's a spiritual practice related to Buddhism,
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and it had this physical, you know, I saw people out there practicing. And he told me, I was in Hong
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Kong, just coming to start for everybody, he says, well, it's all over the mainland. And I was like,
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this is all over the mainland. He goes, yeah, it's everywhere. It's, it's huge. And I did make
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the comment at the time, I said, well, I don't know how long this is going to go, because those
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are guys that don't like, they don't like people having associations that are not related to the
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communist party. A hundred percent. And there's this other- Is that what happened? It exploded so much?
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It exploded. But here, here's the really interesting thing. And I think this is the
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real reason why the persecution became so heavy on this particular group. I'll have it. It took me
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maybe 15 years of looking at this to actually kind of have this realization. Yes, there were
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more Falun Gong practitioners than the communist party. And it's a very jealous, you know, organization.
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It doesn't like things bigger than it. The communist party is only about 90,000 individuals.
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Back, so back in the time, I think it, if I recall, it was about 60,000 and it was 70 to 100 or 70. Yeah.
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But anyway, there was also this jealousy of Jiang Zemin because Li Hongzhi, who was the founder of
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Falun Gong, he had kind of had the love of the people. It was generally known that Falun Gong
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practitioners are healthy and moral, truthfulness, compassion, forbearance. People are living by
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these principles and are very serious about it. And here's the really interesting part.
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Li Hongzhi wrote voluminous teachings. Okay. He's called the master, the teacher. Some people don't
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like the word master. But there aren't a lot of rules. Okay. Voluminous teachings, but not a lot of
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rules. One of them is you can't enrich yourself from it. I mean, I'll tell you, these are my
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interpretation of what the rules are these, something every Falun Gong practitioner would
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agree to. Another one is, you know, there's no worship of the master or the teacher. Another
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one is you never coerce someone to do it. Right. Another one is, let's say you're a really great
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Falun Gong practitioner. You practice truthfulness, compassion, forbearance really well. Okay. I can't
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emulate you. I can't say you're my great model of a Falun Gong practitioner. I have to, I have to
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understand the teachings and live them myself. And that's actually what defines me. There's no roster.
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There's no houses of worship or anything of this nature. None of this. It's what defines you as a
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Falun Gong practitioner is you live the teachings. So what struck me, Steve, it was like, this is an
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unbelievable level of agency. Like basically 70 to 100 million Chinese, you know, in the communist
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system, which kind of demands you be kind of an automaton of the system, right, are suddenly exercising and
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believing incredible agency, right? Compared to any other, there's nothing keeping you in
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being a Falun Gong practitioner, you know, even in, you know, religions where you have, there's no
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hierarchy. Another one rule would be, there's no hierarchy. It's your internal level that matters.
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There's no one to tell you what to do. In the teaching itself, though, could you be,
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could you take on Falun Gong and then be a member, also be a member of the Chinese Communist Party?
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I mean, there were many people in that, in that situation. There were many people in the Chinese
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chemistry that took up the spiritual practice. Absolutely. Absolutely. I remember it was being
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actually taught. There's, there's examples. I know someone who was in one of the headquarters in
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Beijing who was learning it because someone was teaching it. I mean, this was through all,
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this is the other part about this movement, right? It was all the way from the migrant.
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No wonder they try to shut you guys down. Well, migrant field worker, all the way up to the
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high level Communist Party official. And a number, and there's, you know, evidence that people even
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in the Politburo or their relatives were practicing in 99. And actually a lot of people advised Jiang Zemin
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back in the day, do not do this. These are decent people. It's nonviolent. That would probably be
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another role, right? Again, you know, we'll- But why the crackdown? They got, they got nervous and,
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and why this hideous, because they've cracked down, we're going to have, they've cracked down on the,
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on the house evangelical Christians. They've cracked down on, unfortunately, a shame to us.
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They've cut a deal with the Vatican to basically eradicate the underground real Catholic church,
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the state Catholic church. What was it about Falun Gong that they determined they had to have this
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hideous practice to basically not just torture them, but send that thing out there, fear that if
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you continue on this, you can be rolled up into industrial level organ harvesting? Well, I think that a
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big part of it was just the scale, because this group was much bigger than anything else,
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right? They've been persecuting Uyghurs and Tibetans, but these are somewhat smaller,
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isolated, geographically isolated groups. This was, and this was, this was kind of everybody,
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but this, this is the part, this is agency part. Like, think about it. If I'm a communist leader,
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right? And I suddenly, I think, by the way, there's evidence Jiang Zemin believed that,
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that in two weeks he could roll up Falun Gong. He thought it would go away in a few weeks,
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right? But it turns out these people do not re-educate easily. In fact,
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there's numerous accounts of practitioners literally telling the torturer, you know,
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this is, this is bad for you. You're going to, you know, you're going to suffer for this. You're,
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yes, I'm suffering now, but you're going to suffer a lot more later. Like that's the approach. And
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people literally walking away from that saying, you know what? Good point. I don't think I want to
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torture this person anymore. I mean, the scale of it, just imagine across all of China, right? So
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the flip side is what it turned, what it created was the largest, arguably the largest civil
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disobedience movement in existence today, where you have tens of millions of people going around
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China. The way Falun Gong practitioners do it is they have, you know, they have, there's like an
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estimated 200,000 underground printing presses, DVD pressing sites. And they just go to people and say,
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look, the propaganda you heard is wrong. Let me tell you about what Falun Gong really is about. And by the
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way, the problem isn't Falun Gong, the problem is communism. It's the communist party. And by the
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way, you should actually quit the communist party. But you don't, but you don't have still the mass,
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what I saw in Hong Kong, where you had 500,000 people in the morning at dawn doing that's gone
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underground. That's gone underground. Exactly. They wrap it up. But there's examples. So Freedom House
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some years ago did a, did a report on China. And what they found was despite it being like one of the
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really top persecuted groups in China, in some provinces where the, in this, they,
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they, they guess that because of this work, this advocacy work that the Falun Gong had been doing
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in these relative provinces, the persecution had gone down somewhat because people are just like,
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you know what? I know that regime is saying these people are evil, but I'm just not seeing that.
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We're going to not do it as much. Why is the U S and other governments,
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if it's so obvious in this organ harvesting the China tribunal, you can show facts and you can also
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show that this is not a murderous death cult, which is the way the Chinese communist party
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pursuit. Why have the nations of the world not come together? This is the most barbaric thing I
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think is out there. You have live organ harvesting from people for money. And they've kind of targeted
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this, the, these prisoners of conscience. Why have the nations of the world not stood up and said,
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this is impossible. We're not going to have any more trade. You're not going to get access to our
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capital markets. We're not going to give you guys visas to come here. Why have the nations of the
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world not stood up there? Is it the evidence not there or is it just will for blindness?
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Well, it's worse. It's worse than that. I'm just going to give you one example. So prior to the
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survivor where I think you rolled a clip of this organ harvest, but I never thought we'd ever see.
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It's just an unbelievable thing that he exists. You know, they took part of his liver and lung,
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big 14 inch gash in his side. There's a paper in the American journal of transplantation.
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The title of the paper is a few years back, execution by organ procurement. What they did was they
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did a literature survey of the Chinese transplant literature. And what they found was that there's
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at least 70 papers. And this was not by no means comprehensive, where it's clear that the method
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of death of the person is the extraction of the organs and self. In other words,
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the dead donor will death is being violated. And my read on this is that it's so normalized.
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They're live when they take the organ out, they get a live organ, which is more valuable,
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correct. And the person dies because of either the surgery itself or the care afterwards is not
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good. And it's so normalized that they just write it into their translation. I don't think they even
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realize they're writing and murdering people into their research, right? That that's published,
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right? But to your answer, I think there's, there's multiple answers, right? One is
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a lot of people don't want to believe it. That's dealing with, I've been covering crimes against
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humanity for, you know, two decades now. People just don't want to believe that it's happening.
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That's part of the problem. Another part of the problem is when you say it's really happening,
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that means, you know, this is why there's a genocide convention, which we haven't really
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followed very much. The genocide convention exists to say, there's certain things which are beyond
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the pale. There's certain things that are so extreme that it justifies intervening and trying
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to stop them. Like, like you just described, it's the most ghastly thing out there.
00:22:27.820
Have people gone to the genocide? Has the tribunal that met for a year, had they taken their evidence
00:22:34.460
and gone to Switzerland or gone to the genocide? And what, where is the state in the process?
00:22:39.180
The problem is that, that, that, as you know, and probably have covered extensively on War Room,
00:22:44.140
the CCP has a lot of inroads at the UN, you know, and indeed it sits on the Human Rights Council.
00:22:49.100
What are you talking about? They control Geneva,
00:22:51.340
the engine room of the UN is basically controlled by the Chinese Communist Party.
00:22:54.780
It's the reason we're getting out of the World Health Organization.
00:22:57.740
It's a, it's, it's, it's a huge, huge problem. And if that system is to be reformed,
00:23:02.220
which a lot of people believe it can't be, I'm, I still think it might be, but there's no way to
00:23:06.780
do it without extracting the Chinese Communist Party.
00:23:09.420
I want to bring Liz and Ben after the break, but here's what I want to do in leading up to the break,
00:23:13.820
because this is even more outrageous that the Catholic Church could have a deal with a government
00:23:19.020
that does that. Walk people through, we got a couple of minutes, walk them through the process
00:23:22.940
of live organ harvesting from the victims for second. I want people to have the,
00:23:29.580
Well, so, you know, the, one of the first examples that we know of is actually head of
00:23:35.100
the Israeli Transplant Association, Yakub Levy has been a hero in this, by the way, another,
00:23:39.180
someone I would call an expert. In 2005, his patient comes to him in Israel, they have socialized
00:23:44.460
medicine. They pay for transplants. This guy's been waiting for a while. And he says, look,
00:23:48.060
I got an opportunity in China. In two weeks, they're going to set it up for me. They scheduled
00:23:51.420
it for me. And Yakub, you know, being child of Holocaust survivors, he says, this isn't,
00:23:56.300
there's no way this is going to happen, right? Because people don't do such things. Because
00:24:01.340
you have to know when someone's going to be dead, meaning you kill them, right? In order to do that
00:24:05.420
transplant. Sounds very macabre. But the guy says, well, I'm going. So he goes, comes back,
00:24:10.540
he's got the transplant. And Yakub realizes, oh my God, this is something horrible is happening here.
00:24:15.340
These are the beginnings. We had, you know, a woman came to us, uh, uh, who has, whose husband
00:24:20.940
was a transplant surgeon who told her after screaming at night and she heard demanding that
00:24:25.100
he tell her what happened. Um, she said, he told her, I extracted 2000 corneas from living people.
00:24:31.740
And that is why I'm corneas out of your eye, 2,000 eyeballs. Yeah. That's, I mean, and all this,
00:24:36.780
this was, this was the rumor. This is like, we didn't, we're just like, this is
00:24:40.220
be unbelievable. Like I, I don't even know what to make of it. And the victim's blind after that.
00:24:45.100
Well, I suspect that they don't leave them around, you know, or they, yeah, this is the point when
00:24:50.460
you have, when you treat people as disposable objects, does it matter if they're just in the
00:24:54.540
prison, you know, it's just one less mouth to feed. Right. So anyway, that's when David made us,
00:24:59.900
who's one of these experts and David Kilgore, may he rest in peace. Unfortunately, he passed from us.
00:25:03.820
He was a huge Catholic warrior. I might add, um, uh, back in the day. And, um, he, they were asked,
00:25:11.180
basically they took on the task of assessing whether this could be real. And they found 17 lines
00:25:16.300
of evidence. One of the, was this two week wait time. It was a very profound piece of evidence
00:25:20.300
for organs. But they would notify somebody prepared to pay, come over, it's two weeks.
00:25:24.700
Correct. Think about it for 200, 100 or 200 grand. That could be your life. It's a very attractive
00:25:29.500
proposition. If you're willing to forget the fact that someone's being killed.
00:25:32.140
They take every major, they would go after every major organ and they would tell, and they would
00:25:36.220
tell people, they would tell those people it's a death row prisoner that's being used to make you
00:25:40.780
assuage your conscience. Right. But the, even the wildest, uh, you know, sort of estimates of death
00:25:45.900
penalty is orders of magnitude greater than the amount of transplants. And then later when they
00:25:50.060
allegedly created, uh, uh, a transplant registry in China, there's a pay another paper in one of the
00:25:56.380
transplant journals that shows that it's a perfect quadratic equation. In other words, they invented the
00:26:00.300
data and they weren't even very good at inventing the data. Right. So anyway, it's the, the, and it's,
00:26:06.220
it's macabre because you have to transplant from aside from corneas, you have to transplant from a
00:26:11.740
living person. And, and, you know, it's just, it's, it's better that way. It's a healthier organ. So,
00:26:18.700
you know, you can just imagine what happens and it's a perfect, it's the perfect crime scene
00:26:22.140
because you're cleaning it up afterwards. And these people, and this is something David
00:26:26.060
made us pointed out to me once I've never forgotten. They're so vulnerable.
00:26:28.860
Imagine you're Falun Gong, you know, there's millions of people being put into the labor camp,
00:26:32.860
prison system. You're not telling people who you are because they're going to take your family,
00:26:37.100
right? So you're this nameless person in the system that disappears. Who knows what happened?
00:26:41.020
No one imagines in the early years that it's organ harvesting. You're just died or something,
00:26:45.260
right? They disappear. Okay. Short break. We're going to get the, um, the disgrace and shame of the
00:26:52.300
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The China Tribunal, was that a Falun Gong thing or put together by the religious group,
00:31:26.780
No, in fact, this is, it was, it's actually a very powerful group of experts that Sir Jeffrey
00:31:32.680
Nies ultimately convened, you know, a panel. I mean, one professor of really, really, really high
00:31:41.400
level professor from, I think Penn, I always mix up Penn State or University of Pennsylvania,
00:31:46.580
Arthur Waldron was part of that, part of that panel. Arthur Waldron, renowned China hand.
00:31:51.100
Exactly. So, I mean, this was a completely, completely independent and that's what made it
00:31:55.260
particularly powerful. And they brought people from all over the place, including a former New
00:32:00.400
York Times reporter who had heard some very interesting things.
00:32:01.960
And it was so outrageous. That's where they got involved in and had to have this tribunal.
00:32:05.940
Took a year. Okay. We're going to get to that. One of the reasons I wanted to invite my two
00:32:10.340
Catholic colleagues on here, you were on the Committee on the Present Danger, I think a couple
00:32:15.540
of weeks ago, in one of our webinars. You said something's very powerful that's not repeated
00:32:20.820
enough. You said, and you're not Catholic, but you said one of the issues with this secret deal
00:32:27.180
with the Catholic Church, it gives credibility to the regime, to the brutality, and it makes it harder
00:32:33.420
for not just Falun Gong, but for everybody else when you have such a powerful spiritual institution
00:32:38.320
as the Catholic Church, essentially in business with them and allowing them to kind of run and
00:32:44.880
oversee the religion in mainland China. Can you expound on that?
00:32:48.380
Absolutely. I mean, the Vatican deal is a total head-scratcher for me. Basically, it was penned
00:32:54.220
in 2018. It's been renewed a number of times, and it makes no sense because the fate of Catholics
00:33:01.220
in communist China has only gotten worse the whole time. You would think if the deal has the opposite
00:33:06.520
effect, you would kind of get rid of it, right? Let's assume best faith, right? They're thinking,
00:33:10.960
hey, we want to make life better for the Catholic faithful. They have not done that. But what they
00:33:15.360
have done, to your point earlier, is it basically says, look, you know, to the world, look, the
00:33:20.640
Vatican feels like you can kind of deal with this regime reasonably. And, you know, and we can kind
00:33:26.080
of negotiate around who the bishops will be. And we don't actually know exactly the details of the
00:33:31.240
deal. But I remember, you know, just before you were talking about Hong Kong earlier, just before
00:33:35.540
the national security law came into effect, I had the honor of interviewing one of the Catholics I
00:33:41.000
respect most out there, Cardinal Zen, right? And of course, he was out there. Absolutely. And he
00:33:47.400
was out there explaining, why does it not, you know, why is this a crazy idea? And he was trying
00:33:53.520
and the previous Pope wouldn't see him. And it was very sad. And but ultimately, that webinar, I had no
00:33:58.920
idea how bad it had been for Catholics until I was on that webinar. I was like, this is really beyond
00:34:03.760
the pale. But ultimately, this is the this is the issue. Whoever you are, right? Basically, it puts we
00:34:10.700
in Chinese, they call it putting powder on the face of the regime. Okay, like, if you know that someone
00:34:17.160
is doing live organ harvesting a crime yet to be seen on this planet, and it's part of the normal
00:34:22.200
operations of a regime, right? How can you expect good faith and negotiations? Is there any doubt in your
00:34:28.460
mind that the senior level of the Catholic Church, knowing their intelligence network and how they're dialed in?
00:34:33.280
Is there any doubt that the senior levels of Catholic Church do not know about the
00:34:38.100
particularly since the China Tribunal was not run by Falun Gong, but was these like Arthur
00:34:43.980
Waldron, these renowned China hands? Is there any doubt in your mind that they do not know
00:34:49.880
that there is a spiritual practice Falun Gong that is under being tortured by live organ harvesting?
00:34:57.640
Any doubt the way the I'm sure that some of them know, but I also think that in these kinds
00:35:03.220
of situations, people tell themselves convenient stories sometimes to assuage their, you know,
00:35:08.920
you're Polish descent. That's right. So you know about what the Communist Party did to suppress
00:35:15.540
all religions, but particularly Catholicism in Poland, right? 100%, 100%. Well, within, I mean,
00:35:21.500
in Poland, they were, it's actually, you know, a facet, Poland is a fascinating situation because
00:35:27.000
Catholicism is so deep in Poland, right? And so the way they did that is, of course,
00:35:32.820
they tried to shut down the church. They tried, they've killed a number of the very prominent
00:35:37.500
priests like Popiewuszko, very famously. But they really couldn't, they didn't really try to squelch
00:35:44.220
the church because they knew, like ultimately, because they knew that they would have, everybody
00:35:48.300
would go in rebellion. That's part of the Polish psyche. They're very, you know, they don't like being
00:35:52.780
told what to do. They always felt like they were under Russian occupation, right? With even this,
00:35:57.640
even the communists felt that at some level. And it was so embedded into the culture. The
00:36:01.320
culture was so embedded into the culture. So I think, I mean, compared to other places like Russia,
00:36:06.220
as a prominent example, that, I mean, there was total decimation, right? Of the church that didn't
00:36:11.720
happen. Poland was an unusual case. However, I did learn about the insanity of what, how a communist
00:36:19.320
system works. And for example, right, we had these in our, my family, it would be like the worst thing
00:36:25.040
in the world for me to talk about anything in my family, outside of the family. And this drove me
00:36:29.700
crazy as a kid, you know, my very overbearing, you know, overprotective mom, you can imagine,
00:36:35.160
right? I had lots of things I want to talk about, but I knew deep inside my core, I couldn't do that.
00:36:39.180
Everybody else was, you know, talking smack about, about their parents. So I only learned later as I
00:36:44.440
encountered the Falun Gong persecution, and then really started trying to understand,
00:36:48.680
you know, communism. Oh, this was because if the kid said the wrong thing, parents are being locked
00:36:54.800
up. Exactly. That all happened, right? That was all part of the system. And everyone has been,
00:36:59.420
basically, everyone is used in a communist society as an agent in a way, like you're incentivized
00:37:04.340
heavily to report on your fellow man. They found that 25% after, you know, Institute of National
00:37:10.020
Remembrance, the Lestration, as they call it, they found a quarter of the population were
00:37:14.060
informants in Poland. And these are the people that really don't like cooperating, right? So you
00:37:18.960
can imagine how this society was, we can have this conversation. I mean, we're, we're live here,
00:37:22.920
but you can't even have, you know, you don't know who to trust. It's just how it works.
00:37:25.820
This is what they try to do here, underbinding the lives of others. We would have people watch that
00:37:30.060
movie. Incredible film, incredible film. I always tell people.
00:37:34.360
You've got to watch it. It changes you. Liz, you're, this makes it even, I mean, it's,
00:37:39.260
this is why I want to have you on on because of his expertise in this area about the organ
00:37:43.860
harvesting. And, and, and, and like he said, it gives a veneer that there, that the Chinese
00:37:51.700
Communist Party can be dealt with rationally when it comes to religion. And how can, and now we know
00:37:56.420
the fact that was kind of blurted out that Cardinal Prevost, when he was Cardinal, went to China a number
00:38:02.500
of times that was never, ever explained to people before the conclave, ma'am.
00:38:06.980
No, you know, Steve, I read the China tribunal report. It is horrifying to read. And that further
00:38:14.860
emboldened me to speak out against this horrible agreement with the Catholic church and, and the
00:38:23.120
CCP. You know, we found out after Pope Leo was elected that he had gone to China several times.
00:38:30.880
I've got a lot of questions. You know, first of all, he has talked about the seamless garment life
00:38:36.460
ethic. Well, if ever there is a life ethic, it is this horrendous genocide against the Falun Gong,
00:38:45.520
this forced organ donation program, which is a monstrosity. And I want to see Pope Leo,
00:38:53.320
who has been to China 12 times, and I want to know why he went, who escorted him. Did Ted McCarrick
00:39:02.460
make any kind of arrangements? Did he ask any questions about the Chinese forced organ donor
00:39:09.560
program? What did the Chinese government say to him about that program? What, you know,
00:39:16.200
were any monies paid to him with respect to this, these several trips? I mean, these are the questions
00:39:23.920
that need to be answered. And Steve, billions of people saw him walk out on the loggia and look
00:39:30.320
out onto St. Peter's Square. This is the issue that Pope Leo should immediately address. One,
00:39:39.940
cancel this awful agreement with the CCP, repeal it immediately, but also to use the power, the bully
00:39:49.320
pulpit of his office to talk about what is going on with the Falun Gong, what is going on with the
00:39:56.880
Uyghurs. And for 12 years, there has not been a word from the Vatican about this outrageous violation
00:40:04.980
of human rights. And the fact that they're a partner with it, with the CCP, it's, it's unimaginable.
00:40:12.240
It's, it's, he tweeted today about Gaza. I mean, Gaza is horrible. Don't get me wrong. What's
00:40:16.880
happening in Gaza is horrible in both sides, but this is plain and you've got to deal with it. You
00:40:22.060
don't have a deal in Gaza. You have a deal here. Yeah. And here's the thing, right? And this is for
00:40:26.580
the Catholic faithful out there. And I, and I think I'm, I'm ready to give the Pope the benefit of the
00:40:31.460
doubt. This is an opportunity because clearly there wasn't an interest in the past at dealing
00:40:35.780
with this. Well, this is a great opportunity to, to, you know, be on the side of righteousness and
00:40:41.020
justice and so forth. Right. But what I wanted to say is what happens when you don't deal with crimes
00:40:46.000
against humanity, this is why the genocide was convention was signed. In my opinion, what happens
00:40:50.100
is when you don't deal with crimes against humanity, it spreads further. And this is what happened by not
00:40:54.880
dealing with the, the situation of this with the Falun Gong, it then shifted to at some level to
00:41:02.940
the Uyghurs. I don't know at what level. Um, I do know it's an incredibly vulnerable population that
00:41:07.620
has millions in concentration camps. Now we have reports that this has been happening and we know
00:41:13.340
there's a market and this is going to sound really gruesome to people for quote unquote, halal organs,
00:41:17.680
right? Muslim prefer, um, uh, Muslim organs because the Uyghurs are Muslim. Is that what the marketplace
00:41:24.900
says? That, that, that, and so this is, this is an area I don't know as much about, but it's
00:41:30.300
shifted. It's shifted. And, and this is why, why wouldn't it shift to the Catholic? You're saying,
00:41:34.920
you're saying, you're saying since, since Leo's come on now, he can sit there and go, Hey, I had
00:41:39.620
nothing to do with this. We got to review this immediately, bring Cardinal Zen back, which is who they
00:41:45.180
wouldn't meet with before. Explain it. Maybe you meet with Falun Gong, find out about this and say,
00:41:50.100
Hey, we can't go forward with this. From what I understand, Cardinal Zen wasn't part of the
00:41:53.840
conclave, but he was there. And I expect he was speaking with many people about these types of
00:41:57.880
issues, right? Basically advocating for the Hong Kongers. Well, when they signed the deal, he went
00:42:00.820
back and Parolin, those guys kept him waiting for three days. Wasn't it three days, uh, Liz Shore,
00:42:05.760
they kept him waiting around and he never actually got to meet with Francis at all about this. I think he
00:42:10.360
met with Parolin. Is that correct? That's correct. That's correct. And as, and as a result,
00:42:15.180
they went ahead and renewed it three times, knowing that while the ink was dry, this, this deal was
00:42:23.100
violated by the CCP immediately, immediately, they kept on arresting priests and bishops who 10 bishops
00:42:30.920
are still missing, being detained. We don't even know if they're alive. And, and Prevost went over to
00:42:37.680
China. Did he ask about all the missing bishops? Did he see all the churches that had been demolished?
00:42:44.300
Um, and most especially to the topic we're talking about today. I mean, you have to live on another
00:42:50.100
planet, not to know what's going on with their intelligence network, with their intel, with their
00:42:55.080
intelligence network, they know exactly what's going on in the harvest because the tribunal was not run
00:42:59.120
by the Falun Gong. It's an independent with some of the biggest names of what I call the old China
00:43:03.760
hands, Ben Harnwell. You and I have been on this now for years since the first, I remember standing on top of
00:43:09.720
that convent overlooking the Vatican. We were there for the pedophile conference, but they dropped this
00:43:14.200
at the beginning of it. I said, this is actually 10 times bigger because you're giving up one of the
00:43:18.420
most vibrant, robust, it's like the underground church in Poland. You're giving up one of the most
00:43:22.780
robust churches ever to turn it over to the Chinese Communist Party. Your thoughts, sir?
00:43:26.920
Good evening, Steve. Look, back in February 2017, when the Vatican hosted a summit on the forced organ
00:43:38.160
harvesting, I was actually working there in the Pontifical Academy for Social Sciences. I was a
00:43:45.320
consigliere. And I remember at that time, the invitation, I think it was to Dr. Huang J. Fu, former
00:43:55.060
deputy Chinese health minister, and he was invited to participate. And I remember, Steve, on the inside
00:44:01.880
on that occasion, the lobbying that a number of very strong, committed Catholics were doing, trying to get
00:44:10.720
that invitation cancelled because they said it was scandalous. And some very high level representations
00:44:18.700
were made. And basically, without breaking any confidences or anything, the Pope wanted this invitation
00:44:24.820
to go ahead. And I think it's what you and Jan were saying before about sort of willful ignorance,
00:44:31.440
willful turning of blind eyes. And I was trying to, as an intermediary, I was trying to shut a bit
00:44:37.820
this information across. And it was difficult to pin down anything absolutely specific. And it's
00:44:43.980
absolutely true what Liz has said, that in 12 years, Pope Francis never issued a single condemnation
00:44:51.820
of this Chinese practice. How about this then for a suggestion? And I'm not aware that President
00:44:58.260
Trump has condemned it either. How about an initiative, a White House-led initiative, inviting
00:45:06.140
Pope Leo, along with President Trump, to issue a joint condemnation of forced organ harvesting in China?
00:45:15.420
Um, they will have an idea of what the what the Vatican's, you know, whether there is any
00:45:21.940
reasonable hope of a change in policy with regards to China, and under this new Pope. And I think a lot
00:45:28.140
of people would be interested to see how Pope Leo would respond to that invitation.
00:45:33.800
Yeah. And just just to let you know, there's been kind of unprecedented action in Congress. And I know
00:45:39.500
probably a lot of viewers of your show, Steve, are kind of unhappy with with Congress action on this
00:45:43.860
issue. There's been unprecedented action in Congress. Okay, a couple of weeks ago, two bills
00:45:49.620
are passed. Okay, one unanimously one with one dissenting vote. Okay, the first one is the Falun Gong
00:45:55.740
Protection Act. And they're both targeting organ harvesting. The second one is stop the stop forced
00:46:01.460
organ harvesting act, which is a little which is a little broader. Both of them sanction people that are
00:46:07.000
involved in this. There's a reporting element on the Falun Gong Protection Act. Most importantly,
00:46:11.940
and this is why I expect now this is going to the Senate, Ted Cruz is picking up the Falun Gong
00:46:16.440
Protection Act. The Senate is great. He's a fighter. I'm looking forward to seeing but I expect the
00:46:20.560
Chinese Communist Party to pull out all the stops here. Because they do not want basically stamped
00:46:27.480
into US law, the fact that they are doing this, this would be the first time there's been resolutions
00:46:31.860
that US Congress has passed, but this would have actual legal teeth. And and there's another act
00:46:37.560
in waiting. There's five states that are basically remember what I talked about Yacob Lavi earlier,
00:46:42.520
there's this they're preventing Yacob Lavi got this law passed in Israel that they will not pay for
00:46:49.000
China organ transplants. There's five states now Arizona just signed it into last same week,
00:46:53.160
but by the way that those two pieces of legislation passed the house. So so there's stuff happening.
00:46:57.680
So this is, you know, that's an amazing idea you have of this, you know, joint declaration from the
00:47:03.040
president. We'd be very powerful. And the climate for it exists legislatively, too.
00:47:08.160
Well, and it is as Catholics, it is been humiliating to us since this deal was done in a secret and to
00:47:15.760
be renewed. And if you see the power and the vibrancy of the underground Catholic Church
00:47:21.360
in Hong Kong or didn't have to be in Hong Kong. Now it has to be with Cardinal Zen. Cardinal Zen is a
00:47:27.000
living saint. To me, he should be pope. We're going to have to bounce. Where do people go? Because we're
00:47:31.920
now going to make this a thing. Right. Where do people go to get more information? First, the more
00:47:36.360
impossible, more information they get, the better where they go see these bills, where they go see.
00:47:41.160
And I want them to see all the videos. Folks, you must watch this. You can't turn your eyes away from
00:47:46.160
it. It's absolutely brutal where they go for all the information. Well, for starters, for the evidence,
00:47:52.160
China Tribunal dot com, the most comprehensive dump of evidence. Come to the Epoch Times dot com
00:47:59.600
or Epoch TV dot com. You can look up my channel. I cover this issue somewhat regularly. I've had
00:48:05.600
I have a recent piece on American thought leaders, my show about this survivor of forced organ harvesting
00:48:12.280
against all odds exists. You know, it's kind of an unbelievable. And David made his testimony
00:48:16.680
about how he, you know, how he understands things to stand today and many others. So
00:48:22.600
what's your social media? Where do people go? Oh, at Jan Jekielek. I'll spell it for you. At J-A-N-J-E-K-I-E-L-E-K.
00:48:31.860
And in a moment, I'll put something up about exactly this issue. You can find it on X. On X is the best place.
00:48:37.000
So X. And you're also going to go to Poland for CPAC. That's right. That's right. I'm going to probably
00:48:42.860
speak in Polish for the first time in this kind of a venue. We're going to stream all of Hungary
00:48:47.480
and Poland. I'm not able to make it this time, but we're going to stream all of it. Amazing. Hang on.
00:48:53.780
Liz, Ben, obviously, this is our number one priority with this new pope. This is a disgrace,
00:49:00.000
and it's also helped destroy the church over there. Liz, where do people go to get all your information?
00:49:04.840
My website is yourchildren.com. I'm going to post the China Tribunal Report. Everybody in the war
00:49:12.840
room's got to read it. I'm also going to post questions I have for the new pope with respect
00:49:18.180
to China. Encourage your bishops to force answers to that. And I'm everywhere on social media under
00:49:25.780
Elizabeth Yore. You're amazing. This is a thing. When Liz Yore's at the tip of the spear,
00:49:32.520
things are going to happen. Ben, quickly, give me a minute. How big a deal is this?
00:49:37.880
How big a deal can we make this inside the Vatican, sir?
00:49:42.420
I think all the elements are there. Just remember this one thing, Steve. The reason Bergoglio
00:49:47.960
insisted on having this overseer of forced Chinese organ harvesting present at the Vatican
00:49:56.300
is because he sublimated everything to the fact that he wanted to be the first pope to visit China.
00:50:03.460
And let that, folks, let the horror of that sink in at a later moment. There's every moment,
00:50:11.220
every reason to believe that we can see something different. Follow me, Steve. I'm on Getter
00:50:15.040
at Harnwell. And I'll absolutely be tracking this and updating the woman posse with the news as we
00:50:21.660
have it. For the crushing of Falun Gong, the on-the-ground evangelicals, in 30 seconds,
00:50:28.320
how horrible would it be if the pope actually went to China?
00:50:34.040
It's basically the ultimate putting powder on the face of the CCP because you have a regime
00:50:39.240
whose stated purpose is to eradicate religion. And the pope is sort of validating it. I don't
00:50:45.500
think that's a good way to do it. I understand the mentality. I understand the impulse to try to
00:50:50.360
work in good faith and find some kind of better solution for the faithful of the various groups.
00:50:56.100
I wish there was, but we have decades of evidence showing that they don't have the common ground.
00:51:05.440
One of the best papers in the country. Appreciate it.
00:51:07.500
And you've got a readership. I think you're only back at the New York Times and the Wall Street
00:51:12.120
And maybe it's in Washington Post. We don't know. We don't know.
00:51:15.520
They always live with the numbers. We're going to be back live at 10 a.m. Eastern Daylight
00:51:19.700
Time tomorrow morning. Folks, it's on fire in the Imperial Capital. We're going to cover it
00:51:24.420
wall-to-wall. Be up on Getter all night. See you tomorrow morning at 10.
00:51:37.500
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