On this episode of The War Room, host Steve Kambain is joined by Tej Gill, founder of Warpath Coffee Roasters, to talk about the latest on the debt ceiling crisis, and the best coffee in the world.
00:02:10.640Tej, you were a very successful patriot warrior for your country for many decades, and now you've shifted in to be, I think, the finest coffee roaster, not just in the United States, but the world.
00:03:54.620And because of such high demand, we're running our holiday and Christmas coffee year-round because we usually run it for a couple months after Christmas.
00:04:01.160But people are emailing and calling all the time like, hey, we want the holiday coffee.
00:07:35.060Let's play that and then we'll get into the discussion.
00:07:36.820I've also got Liz Yor and Ben Harnwell from Rome because Cardinal Priebus took the name Leo XIV for a specific reason that he laid out after he took it.
00:07:49.940We'll discuss that with Ben and Liz about artificial intelligence.
00:07:53.880Let's play Catholic University, the panel yesterday.
00:07:56.020That I do, I'm in radical agreement with my co-panelists as to their assessment as to where we are and our excitement and our apprehension when it comes to the emergence of AI in our lives.
00:08:11.720When he says science is blind, what he means by that is science doesn't tell you.
00:08:17.080I'm the first to admit there's not a single equation we've ever discovered that tells you what's good and what's evil.
00:08:25.760Science can never answer these questions.
00:08:27.860And if scientists pretend that they can somehow derive from principles of science, what is morally good and what is bad, they're just BSing you.
00:08:35.860They sometimes couch their language in religious terms.
00:08:40.900The essay from Dario Amadei you quoted is even titled Machines of Loving Grace.
00:08:46.160I view it as kind of obnoxious to just try to appropriate religious language for his personal money-making agenda.
00:08:54.700The truth is we have to have a moral compass.
00:09:08.480I think that – I mean there's some – there's definitely some non-obvious thinking that should go into the equation.
00:09:14.100But when it comes to – you know, like issues of religious freedom and pluralism ought to be a central pillar in the decision-making process.
00:09:23.120We have to think about things like what do parental controls mean in different countries around the world that have – are we going to fragment society by the – some of these lessons we didn't learn from the beginning of social media.
00:09:39.800I think it's also important that all of us recognize that when we've had disruptive technologies like this in the past, it's worth a pause for a second.
00:09:51.300They were almost always followed by vast global conflict.
00:10:30.700The other three, though, you had Johnny Moore, evangelical leader.
00:10:35.980You had Max Tegmark, who is a physicist and very much has his head wrapped around the material world.
00:10:43.540But in my discussions with him, he's very open to the mystery of the universe.
00:10:47.420He doesn't think scientists have it all figured out.
00:10:50.520And then you had, if I'm pronouncing his name correctly, Sahil Khan of Microsoft, a conservative Muslim.
00:10:58.260And in the discussion, I mean, the real core of the discussion was simply as we are rocketing forward with the development of artificial intelligence
00:11:06.740and especially the deployment of artificial intelligence, which has been completely reckless so far.
00:11:13.040How do religious communities respond to this?
00:11:16.640You know, I think Will Jones has said this many times, and I've said it many times, you've said it many times.
00:11:22.620But there's a sense that religious communities are going to be best equipped to deal with the ramifications of having machines that at the very least appear to think,
00:11:34.300and perhaps if it keeps moving forward in the direction that Silicon Valley wants it to go, that they actually do think and think better than human beings.
00:11:42.600So what you heard Max Tegmark there saying is that science can't solve this problem.
00:11:48.820Even if someone is an atheist, they have to have some kind of recourse to a foundational reality to say this is good or this is evil.
00:12:29.340So all of that nice talk you had is totally irrelevant.
00:12:32.980In fact, they look at that as a weakness.
00:12:35.120Yeah, you know, it's interesting when you look at the, especially the real ideologues behind transhumanism, post-humanism.
00:12:43.040You know, it begins with playing God, tinkering with a genome, trying to create life yourself.
00:12:48.660It then kind of moves into this dream of becoming gods to perfect one's genome or to merge the mind with a superior artificial intelligence to become kind of a digital master race.
00:13:01.240But at the very end of that, right, at the most extreme end of that spectrum, you have this desire to build God,
00:13:08.580to make an artificial intelligence system that moves from artificial general intelligence, human-level cognition, into artificial superintelligence.
00:13:18.080And that is, by its very nature, a godlike entity.
00:13:21.900You know, the Trump administration has been great on so many different fronts, but I've got to say, you know, the second day of the administration,
00:13:31.700bringing out Sam Altman, bringing out Larry Ellison, bringing out Maha Yoshisan.
00:16:34.760Maybe there's an emotional need that needs to be met that they can't meet with human beings.
00:16:39.680But this is happening right now, and it's only growing.
00:16:43.100So this reckless deployment is these companies obviously do not care about the well-being of the people that are using their products.
00:16:51.680These companies care about, number one, probably profit.
00:16:55.040And number two, the prestige of creating something that is so earth-shaking.
00:16:59.840And at the end of that, they believe it will be a creature like us, that it will be deserving of rights, at least many of them, not all of them.
00:17:06.800And there is that kind of radical fringe that believes that what they're creating is a digital god.
00:17:19.140The church itself, they've had some conferences, but have been a little behind the curve, I think, in getting out in front of this.
00:17:25.800This is why Catholic University was so shocking to me yesterday.
00:17:28.200They had this amazing conference with all these leaders.
00:17:30.820Although Cardinal Prevost took the name Leo XIV specifically because of artificial intelligence in this new post-industrial revolution, sir.
00:17:47.680Look, this is a—let me start off with my response, Steve, to the words that you just said about the Catholic Church perhaps being a little behind the curve on the whole of the AI phenomenon.
00:18:00.120You can't really expect clerics, priests, bishops, or cardinals, many of them in their 70s and 80s, to be au fait and to understand profoundly a technology that even the people at its cutting edge haven't fully grasped yet.
00:18:18.820But I think if we're looking to the Catholic Church to navigate this, perhaps we're already starting off on the wrong foot.
00:18:27.500What the Catholic Church as an institution, also as the mystical body of Jesus Christ, can do is present those perennial values and truths about human nature, about pride, about humility.
00:18:41.500And there's a huge dynamic between those two things.
00:18:44.440Anyone listening to what Jalen was just saying, anyone with any basis of Christian formation will understand straight away the dynamics here between humility and pride in the whole of this project.
00:18:58.520That is something that the Church can do, should do, and is doing in its own way.
00:19:04.780One thing I would say about the new Pope, Leo XIV, taking that name, and I'll come on to this, on to Rerum Novarum, perhaps in a moment after the break or something.
00:19:15.220But as an Augustinian, he has, one would hope, in his formation, since I think he joined at about age 14, the whole history and thought of Saint Augustine at his shoulders that he can draw upon.
00:19:32.160And I think Saint Augustine would be a great navigator for the present age, not least coming back to this point about the essential virtue of humility in man's relationship with God.
00:19:44.940That's the big danger. It's not so much, I think, the idea of this super intelligence that terrifies people rightly.
00:19:53.780It's the idea that developing consciousness or awareness, there might become a will behind that intelligence that can't be controlled because it is massively too far ahead of us.
00:20:07.440And this whole idea, as Joe was saying, about this idea of being a digital god, perhaps the Catholic Church, in reminding people to show some humility with our technology, with what we're inventing, can do a gentle recall and say, look, digital gods are, it is in the realm of, great realm of spiritual danger here for mankind.
00:20:35.620And gently call people back to Yahweh, to Eloha, the original god, the god I think that we're all rather fond of.
00:20:48.520Because it is God himself who has redeemed us and given us the ability to use our discernment.
00:20:56.180Look, I'll close with this word, Stephen, and then I'll perhaps respond to Joe's points further on in the show.
00:21:04.360I was saying in a conversation with a friend of mine the other day that half of my moral philosophy is formed by Holy Scripture and the other half by Stan Lee.
00:21:15.940It's always a good opportunity to say, with great power comes great responsibility.
00:21:20.960I think that's a truth that everyone can appeal to.
00:21:24.340And that I think should be part of our calculation.
00:21:27.120We are well into designing something that is a greater power than our ability to manage.
00:22:34.100And another thing that Augustine said, there's a wonderful book, if the audience is so inclined, by the late David Noble called The Religion of Technology.
00:22:44.920And he describes in great length Augustine's view on technology.
00:22:50.660Of course, in that time, they didn't think of technology.
00:22:52.640In fact, technology wasn't a word used commonly among the people until after World War II.
00:22:58.640But he thought of it in terms of arts.
00:23:02.180And he described everything from the kind of artisan work or any of the levers and tools that were being used in his day in the second century, if I'm not mistaken, third century.
00:23:20.840But these primitive arts and crafts for him, he saw them not as a sin in and of themself.
00:23:29.660He saw technology, we'll say, as God's gift to man to alleviate the suffering of a fallen existence.
00:23:38.080And that this was its proper place, that anything above and beyond that, which would have been, you know, for him, the extravagances of Rome, the extravagances of the theater and the Colosseum, that anything above and beyond that that comes to replace what is true and holy in a Christian's life, which would be God and Jesus, then that then becomes a sin.
00:23:59.440But that point is just simply, and this is what they were saying at Catholic University.
00:24:03.220I'm more extremist myself, but they were basically saying that we can capture the positive effects of algorithms, advanced algorithms for health, for defense, for the economy.
00:24:15.960But it's when it crosses over into the realm of the machine being a being in and of itself, or as Max Tegmark draws the line, when it goes from being a tool to something that is out of one's control.
00:24:30.920Liz, you got a couple of minutes on this before we go to break?
00:24:34.160Sure. In Auerum Novarum in 1891, which was Pope Leo XIII's massive encyclical about the justice and dignity of the human person, and really prioritizing the rights of human beings, both in work and at home, and demanding that the Catholic Church work towards justice and dignity for everyone.
00:24:58.820Look, my concern is, and Joe is right, where have we seen the digital God manifest in this world?
00:25:07.020We have seen it in China, and that is who is going to be driving the AI agenda.
00:25:13.900My biggest concern, though, is the last 12 years at the Vatican.
00:25:18.380The Vatican, for generations, has brought in the great intellectuals of the world to educate the Pope and the Church on breaking technology, on the big issues of the time.
00:25:30.480In the last 12 years, Francis has had the radical techno giants, Zuckerberg, Gates, those are the ones he has relied on.
00:25:41.620He's brought in the climate change adherents.
00:25:44.820We have to do a massive change where Leo XIV must address this issue immediately.
00:25:53.140The Catholic Church teaches that man is both faith and reason, and a child of God.
00:25:59.400We have our divine nature, and by imposing an artificial intelligence, that divine nature becomes exhausted, disappears.
00:26:12.400And so this has to be the number one issue, because the Catholic Church has to seize the momentum and really establish itself as the final word in where artificial intelligence goes.
00:26:25.080Because if we lose our humanity, which is, of course, the great civilization issue here, then we have lost our life and our ability to function as rational human beings who can distinguish between good and evil.
00:26:47.160Joe Allen's going to stick around for a few more minutes.
00:26:48.680I've got Liz and Ben, and we're going to get down on it next in the War Room.
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