Bannon's War Room - WarRoom Battleground EP 787： Warnings About Islam’s “Demographic Jihad” Against The Judeo-Christian West

00:00:00.000 This is the primal scream of a dying regime.

00:00:07.700 Pray for our enemies, because we're going medieval on these people.

00:00:12.920 I got a free shot at all these networks lying about the people.

00:00:17.200 The people have had a belly full of it.

00:00:19.120 I know you don't like hearing that.

00:00:20.540 I know you try to do everything in the world to stop that,

00:00:22.300 but you're not going to stop it.

00:00:23.220 It's going to happen.

00:00:24.500 And where do people like that go to share the big lie?

00:00:27.900 MAGA Media.

00:00:28.800 I wish in my soul, I wish that any of these people had a conscience.

00:00:34.680 Ask yourself, what is my task and what is my purpose?

00:00:38.440 If that answer is to save my country, this country will be saved.

00:00:44.720 War Room. Here's your host, Stephen K. Band.

00:00:47.960 Wednesday 11th of June, Anno Domini 2025.

00:00:59.360 Ben Harnwell here at the helm on Steve Bannon's War Room.

00:01:02.960 Welcome, folks.

00:01:04.340 Thanks for tuning in.

00:01:06.080 We're going to carry on something that we launched last week.

00:01:09.680 There are two guests who were here last week, Frank Walker and Jenny Holland.

00:01:14.000 They're sitting by waiting to come in later as we chew over the week's most important developments

00:01:19.720 in the whole arena of Christianity and the fight for the Christian faith in the public square.

00:01:26.500 But my first guest today, Raymond Ibrahim.

00:01:29.500 Raymond, thanks for coming on the show.

00:01:31.140 I first saw your writings and your analysis some 15 or so years ago.

00:01:36.960 I've been following you since then.

00:01:38.360 You had some great contributions to make on Jihad Watch, which is a great website run by Robert Spencer.

00:01:45.420 But in the intervening years, I know you've produced a number of books.

00:01:50.340 We're going to talk about your third one in your trilogy right now.

00:01:53.220 But you've also put out stuff with the Gatestone Institute, which I also subscribe to, by the way.

00:01:58.740 You've been involved with the Middle East Forum and I think you've been a visiting fellow at the Hoover Institute.

00:02:04.360 So you've got a whole sackload of experience under your belt.

00:02:07.800 Tell us a bit, though, about your new book, which is The Two Swords of Christ.

00:02:12.420 I know this is the third one in your series and the first two books have had huge resonance in our sector, in our segment here.

00:02:21.780 Tell us, before you tell us about what the book's about, tell us what inspired you to write it.

00:02:27.460 Because I think in all three of these books, there are messages to our contemporary time.

00:02:34.600 Yeah, good to be with you, Ben.

00:02:36.360 Excuse me.

00:02:38.200 Well, it's hard to talk about that book without talking about its predecessors, the other two.

00:02:42.420 And because they all have a sort of synergistic, you know, effect on one another, they complement one another.

00:02:48.300 So just to briefly summarize the first book, Sword and Scimitar, subtitle, 14 Centuries of War Between Islam and the West,

00:02:54.500 really traces the history of conflict between Islam and the West, which, of course, is its modern term.

00:03:01.400 Historically, it was Christendom.

00:03:02.520 And I start really from the beginning with the first, you know, couple of years after Muhammad's lifetime with the first battle in 636.

00:03:09.560 And we fast forward all the way until America's first war as a nation, the Barbary Wars with Muslims. 0.99

00:03:14.440 And I highlight, you know, the decisive battles and how they really had a tremendous impact on the shaping of the world so that very few people, you know, know.

00:03:23.640 There's a European, an older European historian.

00:03:26.360 His name is Franco Cardini.

00:03:27.520 And he said very memorably that Islam was a violent midwife to Europe because so much of what Europe really became was a byproduct of continuous aggression from surrounding Islam. 0.99

00:03:41.180 And we and the book also shows Sword and Scimitar that, you know, a lot of the countries or nations or regions that we think or a lot of people think today are have always been Muslim.

00:03:50.020 The Muslim world, especially the Arab world, all of that was actually the was not just Christian.

00:03:56.280 It was actually the greater part of Christendom.

00:03:58.440 And so Islam, I show in that book in the first few chapters, how Islam just completely in one century conquered all that region from Egypt and greater Syria, the Middle East, all the way to Morocco and then even got into Spain.

00:04:11.300 So a lot of people are not aware of that so much of what was once Christendom, about 66 or 70 percent, if you look at a map, was actually permanently swallowed up by Islam and later by the Turks, Asia Minor, what we call Turkey today was one of the oldest, you know, Christian regions.

00:04:27.560 Epistles are in their book of Revelation, talks about its cities.

00:04:31.720 So anyway, that's that's Sword and Scimitar.

00:04:34.280 Defenders of the West was sort of similar, but it was more of biographies.

00:04:38.040 I chose eight biographies of eight men who I identify as defenders of Christendom vis-a-vis Islam. 1.00

00:04:45.620 And it also moves chronologically.

00:04:48.500 And I know I know a lot of people find that very inspiring.

00:04:51.020 And that's partially why I also wanted to write it.

00:04:53.200 It's sort of a it's the same it's the same theme.

00:04:55.660 But now I'm really like zooming in on the lives of specific men, kings and warriors and emperors who, you know, took the cause.

00:05:03.320 And the newest book now, The Two Swords of Christ, is I originally conceived it as a book about the military orders.

00:05:11.460 And but eventually it just became about the two primary ones, really, who spearheaded the defense of Christendom, which would be the Knights of the Temple and the Knights of the Hospital or the Templars and Hospitallers, respectively.

00:05:22.720 And that I think, you know, the relevance of that book.

00:05:26.640 Well, what it is, is just it's a history.

00:05:28.440 Again, it's a history of those how they came into being, how the military orders came into being, the rationale behind them.

00:05:35.320 And I think that's very important.

00:05:36.740 And in fact, that's the title of the book.

00:05:38.440 Two Swords of Christ is a reference to the passage in Luke where Christ says, you know, sell your garment and buy a sword.

00:05:45.880 And his disciples say, look, Lord, here are two swords.

00:05:48.380 And he says, that is enough.

00:05:49.400 Now, even though that verse has been allegorized into absolute meaninglessness today, it actually meant something to pre-modern and especially medieval Christians.

00:05:58.440 And what it meant is you there's two sorts of evil and you have two kinds of swords to fight against them.

00:06:03.220 You have a secular sword against physical evil and you have a spiritual sword against spiritual evil.

00:06:09.300 So modern day Christians only believe in the latter one, apparently, and they've completely lost focus on the on the former, which is a physical sword.

00:06:16.440 So we get into the theology of how they came to be how they came to rise to power.

00:06:21.680 And you find it amazing again today in our modern Christian Western climate to be a Christian is, you know, to be passive and to be tolerant and, you know, to be a doormat in many ways. 0.89

00:06:33.600 But these guys who were essentially monks and really lived very pious lives were also very violent men.

00:06:41.760 And so, you know, reconciling the twain seems to be odd.

00:06:45.960 And I think it's very fascinating when you understand the sort of theological understanding that they had.

00:06:52.260 You know, another thing that medieval Christians did that modern day, you know, we go ahead. 0.87

00:06:58.700 So sorry, Raymond, I want to go into this because we have a few minutes to break this down in a few more deep in a bit more detail as we go on in the show.

00:07:08.080 But first of all, I want to ask you, is it your thesis then that from when Muhammad first appeared in the in the sixth century, right, in the later, the late, late fifth century, sixth century, is it your thesis that there has basically been a continuous physical battle?

00:07:31.100 And you can you can also argue a spiritual battle vis-a-vis Christianity and Islam all throughout this period and that battle is still taking place in the present day? 0.73

00:07:43.100 Or is it your thesis that talking about the Knights Templar and the Knights Hospitaller, these things are really these these are historically battles that belonged in the past?

00:07:54.600 No, it's the former. It's it's it's it's a continuous war.

00:07:59.840 So historically, again, Sword and Scimitar is the book that does this.

00:08:04.060 It historically shows you that the war was nonstop.

00:08:06.860 Of course, I mean, we're talking 14 centuries.

00:08:09.320 There's there's going to be times of peace because of whatever reason and there's truces, et cetera, et cetera.

00:08:14.500 But the general hostility was constant overall.

00:08:18.600 You remember, you know, Islam, Muhammad is seventh century, dies at 632.

00:08:22.720 And in the 16th century, in the 1500s, you have Muslims going to Iceland and Denmark to raid and England to raid slaves under the same exact logic that the Koran tells us it's you're an infidel, a kafir, et cetera. 0.94

00:08:34.940 However, having said that, what I would contend is that what's happening is the same hostility has gone on, except it's taken different manifestations and different guises.

00:08:43.080 And it's it's it's it's continuous.

00:08:46.420 The continuum from the Muslim side is unwavering. 0.59

00:08:49.260 The problem is the discontinuity of the West, in other words.

00:08:52.720 And this is why it's good and timely to read about men like this, these knights and how they perceive that this war, which was both physical and spiritual in their mind, hence the two swords.

00:09:02.280 But now, you know, it's taken forms.

00:09:05.500 Islam is so weak and, you know, the forebearers of Europe and Western, you know, the Western Christians would be turning in their graves to see that finally, you know, the West is supreme, more powerful technologically, economically, you know, militarily. 1.00

00:09:18.780 And it's still suffering worse than when you keep in mind during these centuries of the long war between Islam and the West, Europe was the underdog. 0.74

00:09:27.520 That was the weak one.

00:09:28.820 That was the one who was being battered and was like, really, until, you know, maybe 17th century and so forth or 16th century.

00:09:36.020 So now, though, you got the same hostility.

00:09:38.920 So let's say Europe brings in all these, you know, the demographic change and they're bringing millions of migrants from the Muslim world.

00:09:45.000 And lo and behold, they're doing the same sorts of things that they did when they used to invade Europe with the sword. 0.78

00:09:50.780 But now they're being welcomed in.

00:09:52.600 So, you know, it's the same kind of thing that's going on.

00:09:55.580 Churches all throughout Europe and in Western countries are constantly being attacked and desecrated.

00:10:00.260 Crosses are being broken.

00:10:01.980 And so to me, it's a pattern of unwavering hostility that goes all the way back to the 7th century.

00:10:07.160 But because the West has kind of distanced itself from its own heritage and, you know, broken away from Christendom and that idea, it doesn't see it.

00:10:17.000 It doesn't understand it.

00:10:17.820 It's working under this guise of multiculturalism and, you know, any problem that goes on.

00:10:21.960 It has to do with, you know, economics or grievances.

00:10:25.960 And so they don't understand the sort of existential hostility that has been just unwavering.

00:10:30.000 And well, as I document in my books, it's not hasn't stopped and it's still going on.

00:10:34.720 What about this thesis that you'll find pretty much in most of the media and modern academia, that here were these peaceable Muslims just getting on with their life. 0.71

00:10:46.840 And you have the brutality of Christians and the Crusades going in and for no reason whatsoever attacking because the Christians, the bad guys, the Muslims are the good guys. 1.00

00:10:59.640 That's basically the modern perception, the narrative that you'll pick up here in the West.

00:11:05.620 Well, what's your what's your reading on that?

00:11:07.900 And is your book in some ways a corrective to that that alternative history, that fake history?

00:11:14.980 Exactly.

00:11:15.540 In regards to the latter point, exactly.

00:11:17.380 The reason I wrote these books, this trilogy, essentially is as a corrective to that narrative.

00:11:21.700 And you're also right.

00:11:22.540 That is the predominant narrative.

00:11:24.480 It's what I call fake history.

00:11:26.580 And as I often say, fake history is much more dangerous than fake news because it creates overarching narratives and paradigms that people sift current events through.

00:11:34.780 So if you believe what you just said, not you, but people in general, and they do that, you know, medieval Christians and Crusaders were the aggressors. 0.88

00:11:42.000 Muslims were peaceful, tolerant victims. 0.97

00:11:44.280 Muslims, if you believe that, of course, then you fast forward and you look at events today. 0.89

00:11:49.080 And I mean, you know, a few years ago, I think like thousands of Germans did a march to the Holy Land wearing shirts with Arabic.

00:11:57.340 It said, I'm sorry for the Crusades.

00:11:59.940 OK, so it puts you in this position where you feel like you have to make concessions because you're the bad guy.

00:12:05.560 Let's make up for what our ancestors did.

00:12:07.520 Let's not let's now like turn a new leaf and let's give Muslims the benefit of the doubt, et cetera, et cetera. 1.00

00:12:12.460 But if you actually, you know, and it's so diabolical the way that this fake history, because I've really read a lot of books written by secondary historians who are supposed to be well renowned.

00:12:22.940 And the things they say, it's just, you know, I'll give you one example of, you know, well-known professor, John Esposito from Georgetown University, which is where I attended for a while.

00:12:33.440 And, you know, he's the editor in chief of Oxford Books on Islam, and he's written so many books published by the Oxford University Press.

00:12:40.800 And he literally says in one in one of his books, I think it's called Islam, the straight path.

00:12:45.700 He says five centuries of peaceful coexistence between Muslims and Christians elapsed before an imperial papal power play led to series of so-called holy wars that have left an enduring legacy of mistrust.

00:12:58.280 In other words, Muslims and Christians just got along hunky-dory for five centuries until the first crusade in 1095, when these evil imperialistic, you know, papal power play popes and Catholics decided to go and attack innocent Muslims. 0.96

00:13:13.440 The reality, as I sort of alluded earlier, is the complete opposite.

00:13:17.400 In those five centuries, Islam destroyed and wreaked havoc all throughout Christendom. 1.00

00:13:21.440 In one year alone, according to a Muslim historian, in the year 1009, the caliph, the Fatibid caliph in Egypt, Hakim al-Amrullah, according to Muslim historian al-Makrizi, destroyed 30,000 churches in greater Syria and Egypt, including the holy sepulcher, which he razed to the ground.

00:13:36.840 So, and this is during the five centuries of peaceful coexistence.

00:13:41.060 So, even leading up to the first crusade, the mass havoc and the massacres that the Turks were causing in Asia Minor and attacks and rapes on nuns who were going on pilgrimage, that's exactly what the Christians spoke about at Clermont, at the Council of Clermont with Pope Urban II.

00:13:57.940 It was that.

00:13:58.500 It was to redress and defend Christendom from what was happening.

00:14:02.700 But that has been so expunged today, and, you know, it starts off, like I just told you, with that quote.

00:14:08.200 And the same page that John Esposito, where he says five centuries of peace, you know, he also says he mockingly dismisses the fact that when the crusaders said deus vult, God wills it, he writes, yeah, God may have willed it, but there's no evidence that the Christians in the Holy Land willed it.

00:14:24.240 And, well, all contraire, and as I showed in a recent article and video, there's copious evidence of Middle Eastern Christians, Syriac, Armenian, who when the crusaders came, they just threw themselves and kissed their feet because they helped alleviate what was happening to them, which was mass persecution by Muslims.

00:14:42.580 So, yeah, this is a very potent fake history that's meant to demonize Christians and demonize especially medieval Christianity.

00:14:50.560 I think there is a force out there that is very scared that Western Christian men might start sort of gravitating and find appealing medieval Christian men, specifically the two knight groups that I spoke about in the Two Swords of Christ, the Knights of the Temple and the Hospital.

00:15:05.860 Tell me something, Raymond, what do you think about the Catholic Church in the decades following the Second Vatican Council?

00:15:16.180 Has it had a role to play in trying to present the truth behind the defence of Christians in the Middle East under Islamic conquest?

00:15:28.600 Or has it, do you think, rather somewhat sold the pass behind a deceptively dialogue-based interaction with Islam? 0.75

00:15:42.020 Could it have done more? And are you looking towards the new Pope, Leo XIV, to change the position somewhat from the position of Pope Francis and his numerous declarations, like I think it was Abu Dhabi, his declaration with regards to Islam?

00:16:04.760 So there's two questions there. Do you think the Catholic Church has done enough in presenting to Catholics the truth about the Islamic conquest of Christendom in the previous centuries?

00:16:18.780 And are you looking and hoping for a change under the new Pope?

00:16:22.920 Yeah, as far as the first question, no, it has not done enough, especially under Pope Francis.

00:16:29.780 You know, he was much more, it seems, interested in just dialogue and trying to show, you know, some fraternal, peaceful overtures towards the Islamic world.

00:16:39.440 And he did a lot of these meetings with the grand imam of Egypt, Sheikh Ahmad al-Tayyib.

00:16:44.600 And it's just, you know, as a person like me who watches and reads in Arabic, and I get to watch the Sheikh.

00:16:51.640 So I would watch Pope Francis and the Sheikh talking and hugging each other and kissing each other and talking about peace and love and how Muslims and Christians are, you know, brother religions and should help each other.

00:17:02.120 And then I would watch the Sheikh speaking in Arabic saying the exact opposite and sounding not unlike ISIS, you know, when it comes to the Christian is the kefir, the infidel, we can't have churches and all that sort of thing. 0.51

00:17:14.740 But of course, he doesn't speak it the way ISIS does. He tries to be a little more diplomatic, but it's the same mentality. 0.86

00:17:20.180 And al-Azhar, which is, you know, almost like the equivalent of the Vatican, people will say, of the Islamic world, is notorious for publishing books that what we would call radical Islam.

00:17:32.660 And they have no choice because those are the books of Islam, the Hadith and, you know, the Sira, the biography of Muhammad and all the special studies.

00:17:40.400 So it's a one-sided thing. And, you know, and a lot of the Muslims and when Christians from the Middle East watch this, they just they can't believe it because he's being so hoodwinked, Pope Francis, unless, of course, he knew that. 0.54

00:17:53.440 And it doesn't matter because he just wants to put a show of, hey, we're signing all these.

00:17:58.160 Excuse me. Let me just stop you there. What's your reading of the situation?

00:18:02.700 Because no one follows these things more attentively than you. Do you think he was acting?

00:18:06.380 Do you think Bergoglio was acting in good faith or do you think he was actually acting in bad faith with his presentation to Catholics that Islam is a peaceful religion?

00:18:19.600 You know, the only way to answer that question is, you know, how what's his intelligence level?

00:18:24.760 You know, does he did he really believe what he was saying or, you know, is he that naive or does or was this wishful thinking or is this just like I said, kind of a show?

00:18:34.220 I think it's a little bit of all, you know, it's a combination.

00:18:37.060 He's hoping, but he also knows probably not, especially when people like me would expose what, you know, his counterpart would say and do soon thereafter, after these meetings.

00:18:47.340 But as far as, you know, and he would, for example, write encyclicals about the environment.

00:18:52.960 But it's like you could have written an encyclical about the fact that something like I think the latest estimate published by the human rights group Open Doors on their world watch list is, I don't know, like 400 million Christians around the world are being persecuted.

00:19:06.520 And some of them really graphically in Nigeria, you have two Christians being killed every hour, OK, for their faith. 0.73

00:19:14.780 So you would think as the pope and here's the irony when you go back and you study the history.

00:19:19.460 And as I show in these books, the the men who spearheaded the crusades were the popes.

00:19:23.960 These were the guys who were the most, you know, stalwart resistors against Islamic violence and the spread of Islam. 1.00

00:19:31.260 And so it's funny now when you fast forward to a Pope Francis and they come off, you know, so wishy washy.

00:19:37.780 As far as the new pope, you know, I think one can have some hope.

00:19:41.220 But in the end, I just feel a lot of these these institutions are just being such big, vast institutions.

00:19:46.820 They can't help but have to be diplomatic.

00:19:49.060 So there's probably only so much he will say or do, though.

00:19:52.880 I think he understands the situation better.

00:19:54.920 He's already talked about, you know, I don't remember the exact details, but he's already referenced that Christians are being persecuted.

00:20:01.540 So that's a good sign.

00:20:03.300 And we just need it would be nice for popes to go back to how they used to be in a way when they were the chief defenders of the faith.

00:20:11.400 It would indeed be nice to go back to the way things used to be when popes were Catholic. 0.97

00:20:19.120 Look, we've got a break coming up in five minutes.

00:20:21.660 There is a story that I wanted to quickly hit with you, but I think we'll hold it over now until after the break.

00:20:27.820 One thing I did want to ask you, however, listening to you talk, is that it's conscious to me that that guys, men, males, if you will, are having a moment.

00:20:42.600 You've got this whole thing in social media about the manosphere.

00:20:46.100 And as I was sort of listening to you talking about this muscular form of Christianity that we saw in the past, and I know you elsewhere, you've described Templars and Hospitallers as not as soldiers and not as cloistered monks, but both together at the same time.

00:21:03.980 Given that chaps have really had a backseat in the Catholic Church following the Second Vatican Council, and there is a moment taking place now within this wider manosphere concept, just tell me something about your reading of this situation.

00:21:23.880 Is there anything that is going in the books, these three books, but specifically the Two Swords of Christ, that speaks to this contemporary dynamic, specifically about men leading up and taking leadership roles within the church once again?

00:21:40.280 Yeah, I think that's one of the key points that comes out in this history, the Two Swords of Christ about the Knights, is again, it's this fusion of piety and militancy, which is so alien, you know, to your modern day Christian who has just been bred into becoming a doormat. 0.97

00:21:57.500 You know, they've taken, you know, the whole idea, you know, this turn the other cheek has been so, I think, weaponized by people who actually hate Christianity, and at the same time, I often wonder to myself, you know, are people, men especially, are they overly fond of boasting that they're turning the other cheek because Jesus commanded them to, or is the first premise that they're really cowards, and they found a pious pretext to hide behind, which is, you know, I don't want to be confrontational, I don't want to be judgmental, I don't want to be judgmental, I don't want to be

00:22:27.500 want to do anything, and oh yeah, because Jesus told me to. I'm starting to think that's really what's going on, and that they've been bred to become so passive, so cowardly, a lot of men in the West, and obviously I'm generalizing that a lot of men are not like that in the West, obviously, but I think it's been weaponized, this passive side of, if you go back in pre-modern time, you know, even though it seems so taken for granted today that Christianity is passive and peaceful and does nothing, no one thought that way, you know, so this is a new idea,

00:22:57.400 that has really been, it's a classic heresy, right, a heresy is you take one aspect of religion and you, you know, blow it out of proportion and you ignore all the rest. Where's the aspect of, you know, overturning tables and a whip of cords and driving people out due to righteous indignation? You know, where do you get that? It's missing, and it wasn't missing for pre-modern men, for medieval men, it was very much, there was no conflict whatsoever between loving your neighbor and fighting and defending them and killing.

00:23:26.280 You know, when you think about it, both the Knights of the Temple and the Knights of the Hospital, they began in their origin of just wanting to help their fellow man. They were working on the verse, you know, loving your fellow man as you love yourself, and loving God, that's what led to the Crusades, but, so the Templars, because when Christians would go on pilgrimages after the First Crusade, and now Jerusalem's under Crusader control, they were still being killed and attacked by Muslims.

00:23:50.400 So, in their origin, the Templars were just basically a vanguard to protect pilgrims, and then the hospitalers is even more telling, because these were actually the men who were like a care worker, you know, they would, people who would come, and it was a hospice, and they would care for them, and they would wash them, and feed them, and clothe them, and, you know, and these are the guys who became militant and violent, because to them, in the end, it was, why am I going to sit in the hospital and wait until you get attacked by Muslims, 0.94

00:24:18.420 and then try to resuscitate you? Why don't I actually go and prevent it, preemptive strike, by protecting you? 0.99

00:24:26.360 So, it's amazing that, but for us today, and this is why you don't hear about these knights, and the Templars have been so demonized, and they've been turned into something that doesn't even exist,

00:24:34.640 it's called pure mythology, and I think it's because if you really study them, they are appealing to Christian masculinity, and that's why there's a concerted effort to keep them suppressed,

00:24:43.660 or to demonize them, or to turn them into all the nonsense that they've been turned into.

00:24:47.340 Which, ironically, isn't a problem that exists within the Islamic world. Far from it, ironically.

00:24:58.300 It's interesting that what you mentioned, and I hadn't considered that before, that basically the beta male mentality can hide behind the precepts of our Lord,

00:25:10.140 and present themselves as sort of a prudential form of interior spirituality, when in fact it's just plain up, in your face, cowardice, right?

00:25:23.900 Yeah. They're making a virtue out of a vice, okay? It's cowardice, and they hide behind, because think about it, you know,

00:25:31.140 non-confrontationalism, non-judgmentalism, non, you know, being tolerant of everything. Well, that's the easy route.

00:25:38.900 That's the easy thing to do, because you never get in anyone's face, you never resist.

00:25:42.480 And, you know, so I think a lot of people have adopted that, and that comes first. That's the first premise.

00:25:49.220 And then, you know, the second premise is what Jesus said. So, it's being, instead of, what it should be is that you want to do right,

00:25:57.260 and, you know, if someone strikes you, you want to actually kill them, but you don't. You control yourself.

00:26:02.460 That's how it should be, all right? And that's what Jesus, I believe, was.

00:26:05.020 And keep in mind, you know, everyone knows this, turn the other cheek business. The one verse, Jesus actually gets slapped in the Gospels,

00:26:13.280 and he didn't turn his other cheek. He actually challenged the man. So, clearly, this is a very symbolic thing to say,

00:26:18.900 and it should never, in any way, shape, or form, be actually practiced. And no one did, because they had just war.

00:26:24.920 Okay. Raymond, Ibrahim, hold on to that. We're going to come back after the break.

00:26:29.700 I'm going to come back with Frank Walker, actually, in just a couple of minutes,

00:26:34.520 because I want his take on what you were just saying about this aspect of cowardice masquerading itself as piety,

00:26:42.800 because I think we find that, before anything else, within our Catholic hierarchy.

00:26:48.180 Folks, stand by. We're back with a story that I think follows directly on from that,

00:26:53.720 in happenings in France and Chartres. Back in two minutes.

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00:30:47.500 Welcome back.

00:30:58.920 So last week, we had Frank Walker on the show, who's the founder and editor of Canon 212.

00:31:04.220 The best way of describing that is basically the Catholic Drudge, and it's a website that

00:31:08.940 I go to several times a day throughout the day because there's no other source out there

00:31:13.160 in the world on the internet, keeping people briefed in real time about what's going on,

00:31:18.340 specifically within the Catholic ambit.

00:31:21.600 Frank, let's come to you, because I want to pick up on what Raymond was saying in the

00:31:24.460 first half here, and I think there's a first-class example of that.

00:31:29.820 Picking up on a couple of these stories, the most important stories that have taken place

00:31:34.120 within Christianity over the last week.

00:31:36.880 And by the way, folks, we've got something on the Southern Baptist Convention for next

00:31:42.640 Wednesday for all of you evangelicals. 0.78

00:31:45.660 Some great news, by the way, coming out of the evangelical world.

00:31:49.200 But Frank, tell us a bit about Chartres and the pilgrimage there.

00:31:52.540 There's a bit of good news there, but something for Catholics to be extremely wary about. 1.00

00:31:57.720 Well, the pilgrimage of Chartres is something that makes the traditionalist Catholics very 0.94

00:32:05.060 happy, and it's been growing every year.

00:32:07.560 I think it's like 4,000 more people than it was last year, about 20,000 people in total.

00:32:13.720 These are all traditionalist Catholics that like the Latin Mass, which means that they're

00:32:19.400 also faithful to everything that the church teaches.

00:32:22.460 And it's a 60-mile walk, and it's just getting more popular every year.

00:32:26.800 A lot of young people, I think the average age is 20 years old that are there.

00:32:31.660 And the faithful Catholic, I don't really like the word traditionalist too much, because that's

00:32:37.380 sort of a slur.

00:32:38.300 It's really just faithful Catholic, and they like the ancient Catholic Mass.

00:32:42.840 They have a lot of children.

00:32:44.220 They have young families.

00:32:46.180 But they are really, really despised by the main Catholic Church.

00:32:53.740 And even the wider secular world attacks them, too.

00:32:58.220 So they had this pilgrimage, but this year, for the first time, they put some restrictions

00:33:03.580 on it.

00:33:04.060 They put them under review, a certain review by the Bishop of Chartres.

00:33:08.500 And he's done something that is really insidious.

00:33:12.420 He said that they have to be able to say the Novus Ordo Mass, the new Mass, which is really

00:33:20.860 contrary to their whole identity and actually their whole faith.

00:33:25.980 And the orders, the FSSP and the ICK that are involved in this, and then the SSPX, they

00:33:32.560 don't want to say that new Mass.

00:33:34.540 And for them to have to permit that kind of thing really undermines it.

00:33:39.340 It really doesn't have anything to do with this pilgrimage for them to do this.

00:33:43.100 And the bishops, they're all glomming onto it, saying how it's so great and everything.

00:33:49.480 The fact that they have to do this is targeting them directly all the time, not just in the

00:33:57.060 pilgrimage, just their very best thing, using it to undermine them every day.

00:34:00.680 Now, you'd think a pilgrimage, and I think the average age of 19 or 20,000 people that

00:34:07.180 participate in this, the average age of which is 20, you would think that a country like

00:34:12.700 France, with all the structural problems that they have within the church, within the Catholic

00:34:17.720 church, within secularism, would have embraced this kind of movement.

00:34:21.300 But I saw your piece that you put out on Stumbling Block, which is, I think, your personal website

00:34:28.760 earlier, and you mentioned, if I'm not mixing these things from my head, you mentioned that

00:34:35.540 the bishop, the swish-up concerned in this diocese of Chartres, was trying to invoke the holy 1.00

00:34:45.940 presence of the holy name of Leo to suggest that he was accompanying them in prayer.

00:34:55.040 And that was basically, that had no foundation.

00:34:57.760 In fact, just say a bit about what he said and why he said it, this bishop, and what your

00:35:03.640 conclusion is about that.

00:35:05.360 He said simply was that Leo has said that he prays for pilgrimages.

00:35:10.060 I don't know when, I don't know what the context was, but the whole Catholic trad media, the

00:35:15.940 faithful Catholic media has said, no, he's praying for the pilgrims at Chartres.

00:35:20.500 There's such a push to try to make Leo look like something different.

00:35:25.280 They're still hoping that he's going to remove the restrictions on the ancient master Francis

00:35:29.660 added in there.

00:35:31.240 And so it's just amazing to see that they would use that, that they'll do any kind of

00:35:35.000 stretch.

00:35:35.620 These are our own people talking to each other, the all faithful Catholic media telling each

00:35:40.820 other these stories that are really not true at all. 0.89

00:35:44.120 And of course, this bishop, and they like to glom onto it like parasites to the growth of 0.94

00:35:51.560 the church.

00:35:51.940 I think that the trad movement is responsible for a lot of what they're seeing as this young 1.00

00:35:55.840 new growth in the Catholic church we're seeing in the news in the last couple of weeks.

00:35:59.860 Now, just to fill in a few details here, because Frank, you were talking about the traditional

00:36:08.200 Latin mass.

00:36:09.460 This, by the way, would be the mass that the knights, the Templars and the Hospitallers would

00:36:15.580 have known and prayed and attended sort of a thousand, one thousand and five hundred or

00:36:20.860 so years ago, because it goes back to the canon of that mass, it goes back, I think, to the

00:36:25.480 third century.

00:36:26.760 So, you know, you can have a view on the old mass in Latin, you can have a view on the

00:36:30.560 vernacular.

00:36:31.380 The fact would seem to be that when the church prayed and said the old Latin mass had expanded

00:36:38.860 and evangelized, and when it switched to the vernacular, it started imploding and retreating.

00:36:46.160 But just let that pass for one moment, because the undercurrent of what is taking place here

00:36:55.360 in France, right across the world, is that there is a spiritual battle going on, right?

00:37:01.300 That's the fundamental point, is a spiritual battle.

00:37:04.000 And as Raymond Ibrahim in the first half of the show was saying, it's a literal battle too.

00:37:09.800 So we Catholics need to get our act together.

00:37:13.140 Frank, hold on, I'm going to come back to you just in a few moments, because there are

00:37:17.820 further developments here in the growth of Christianity, or the growth of what is being

00:37:23.860 called Christianity, whether it is, whether it isn't, that's something for a future show.

00:37:29.720 Jenny Holland, you're, I think, the war room's atheist of choice to come to.

00:37:39.060 You pray the rosary every day, which, of course, a few Catholics pray the rosary every day.

00:37:45.140 You pray the rosary every day.

00:37:47.020 You've had a huge explosive traction whenever you come on the show.

00:37:51.740 Tell us about this story about Catholicism being cool again, will you?

00:37:58.040 Because I think there are a couple of takeaways for this evening's topic of conversation.

00:38:03.580 Yeah, the Free Press had an interesting article, I think it was last week, about Gen Z turning

00:38:11.220 toward Catholicism in particular.

00:38:14.460 And as much as I'd like to say I'm in my 20s, I am no longer, but I am also doing it.

00:38:21.420 So I understand the impulse.

00:38:23.340 I think the things that are driving young people to the church are the same things that I'm

00:38:30.020 seeing and that are horrifying to me.

00:38:32.080 But if you're a 20-year-old or a 21-year-old or a 22-year-old, those effects are massively,

00:38:38.080 they're much bigger.

00:38:41.020 Because I at least remember the days before the internet when society still had a modicum

00:38:46.400 of common sense and something of a moral foundation.

00:38:51.120 Kids who are in their 20s now don't remember that world.

00:38:54.280 That world is gone.

00:38:55.140 So they need something to fulfill the very basic human desire for structure and order,

00:39:03.220 which does no longer exist.

00:39:05.080 It's not taught in schools.

00:39:06.360 It's not common.

00:39:09.540 It's not expected to be enforced within families even, although many families still do, obviously. 0.73

00:39:14.700 But the weight of the culture is toward hollow promiscuity, immediate self-gratification, nihilism.

00:39:25.940 And you don't have to be a theologian to feel that that is a dead end.

00:39:33.020 People have an innate need to reach for something higher.

00:39:38.280 And that is what we're seeing with young people.

00:39:41.360 Jenny, isn't there something in this article here, and I quote, that there's a great need

00:39:46.660 to recover the sense of mystery at Catholic mass?

00:39:51.060 And I will tie, if I have time, I will tie all of these segments in together, because I think

00:39:56.080 there's a straight line to all of these things.

00:39:59.260 You know, nature abhors a vacuum, folks, right?

00:40:01.820 If Christianity is leaving a public space, then expect something else to come in and fill that. 0.96

00:40:07.680 And that's what Islam is doing. 1.00

00:40:09.560 And if we're going to be serious about opposing that, we need to be sort of serious about what

00:40:13.860 it is that we're presenting to people.

00:40:15.240 But there's this aspect here in this article that young people, young guys, coming back

00:40:20.840 to this issue, young guys are looking for something.

00:40:23.960 And it's the very thing, right?

00:40:25.880 We just heard Frank Walker talking about this 19,000 strong pilgrimage and shot.

00:40:32.000 The very thing that kids are looking out for and thirsting for are the very things that

00:40:37.020 the bishops are trying to take away from them.

00:40:40.720 But could you just give me your take on that point, please?

00:40:43.520 Well, just from literally a layman's perspective, the transcendence and the smells and the bells,

00:40:50.920 which is what the article referenced, is the edge that Catholicism has over other forms,

00:40:59.040 or at least many forms of Protestantism.

00:41:02.520 And that has been the case for a long time.

00:41:05.440 And I think I mentioned last week, my great aunt in her 20s, you know, in the early 20th

00:41:10.800 century converted from being a Protestant to being a Catholic for that exact reason, she 0.91

00:41:15.380 found it a huge relief, the beauty of the mass from her everyday life where she worked

00:41:22.340 in a factory and whatnot.

00:41:23.800 And I would, you know, woe betide church hierarchy who thinks that they can abandon these old ways

00:41:33.840 because that is the only strength that they have left at this point.

00:41:39.900 The traditional mass is, as this article points out and other people have spoken to,

00:41:47.320 is growing in popularity and is attracting people who grew up in a very secular world because

00:41:54.340 they long for the beauty of it.

00:41:56.420 Whereas the newer forms, the later 20th century forms, have none of that.

00:42:03.120 I've seen that in my own life.

00:42:04.440 I've been to a Latin mass near me several times, and I've been to a

00:42:08.480 Novos Ordo mass, I suppose, several times.

00:42:11.500 And the Latin mass is always more, has more people attending.

00:42:16.500 The entire point of this is that people want an escape from modernity.

00:42:21.360 So if the Catholic Church thinks it's going to win over new people by reinforcing modernity,

00:42:28.240 and especially modern morality, which is a bit of a horror show, actually, they are absolutely

00:42:34.500 mistaken.

00:42:35.300 And you have to question, do they really even believe that?

00:42:38.900 It would be hard for me to believe that they believe that because it's so obviously untrue.

00:42:46.040 Jenny, thanks for that.

00:42:47.320 Thanks very much for that.

00:42:48.160 Raymond, look, in the closing minutes of this show, I know there's this article here from

00:42:55.800 the Washington Post, which I think dovetails into the points that you were making at the

00:43:02.700 beginning, the wider battle, the arena between Christendom and Islam. 0.81

00:43:08.280 We heard from Frank Walker about the procession, the pilgrimage in Chartres, which was actually,

00:43:14.240 which was the, you saw the bishops there trying to stamp down on the very thing that young

00:43:19.280 people are thirsting for.

00:43:20.580 You heard what Jenny Holland was just saying, who's not a, she's not a, she's not a Catholic,

00:43:26.200 not a believer, but she's saying the same thing again and again of the, of people searching

00:43:31.820 for the sacred, for the transcendent.

00:43:34.240 How do you tie this in, all these themes that we've been discussing about on the show?

00:43:38.640 Tell me about this article in the Washington Post specifically about the numbers and how

00:43:44.880 things are going.

00:43:46.280 And obviously with the narrative of what you're talking about, of this 1,500, 1,600 year battle

00:43:55.220 vis-a-vis Christianity and Islam. 0.66

00:43:58.160 What are the numbers like?

00:43:59.180 What are the dynamics taking place in the West today, in the world today?

00:44:03.000 Yeah, so as I had indicated, you know, the, the, the jihad and the crusade, which went

00:44:09.300 on for centuries until recently, the jihad continues, but there is of course, absolutely

00:44:13.540 no crusade.

00:44:15.400 What's it's, it's taken different guises.

00:44:17.520 And one of them of course, is this demographic jihad.

00:44:20.620 They actually call that, it's called that.

00:44:23.220 Remember the word jihad, people, apologists will tell you, it doesn't mean holy war.

00:44:26.940 It means struggle, strive.

00:44:28.160 It does.

00:44:29.300 And that makes it even more dangerous because historically, the only way you were going

00:44:33.300 to struggle and strive against Christians was through force because they weren't going 0.75

00:44:37.060 to give up or give, you know, betray their heritage and their faith just for fun, like

00:44:42.700 they are today.

00:44:44.140 But it also meant strive in different ways.

00:44:46.560 You can, you strive with your money, you can fund the jihad, strive by propaganda or lying.

00:44:51.120 Then there's the baby jihad, which is, they actually encourage Muslims, men and women to 1.00

00:44:55.540 keep procreating children. 1.00

00:44:57.820 And you go now into Europe and almost every large Western city, Oslo, there's so many of

00:45:05.200 them, I wrote about them, maybe four or five capitals.

00:45:09.160 And the number one name of newborn baby boys is Muhammad.

00:45:13.560 And, you know, there's a reason for that.

00:45:14.980 The parents are making a point, okay, that they're choosing that name of all names.

00:45:18.700 It's not just any Arabic name.

00:45:19.920 So, uh, there's definitely a, the, just the numbers are growing.

00:45:24.420 And that's why when you look at certain areas in Europe, like in Sweden or in the UK, um,

00:45:29.580 Germany, of course, France, you have what you're seeing, which is, uh, a lot of these Muslims 1.00

00:45:34.020 are growing in numbers and, uh, Europeans are not replacing themselves. 0.87

00:45:38.500 As we know, there's a decline in the birth rate.

00:45:40.800 And if you look at certain polls, I remember a few one, I think it says in Germany, something

00:45:44.840 like by 2050, Muslims are going to be, I don't know, maybe like 40%.

00:45:48.900 And I mean, it's over game over at that point. 0.97

00:45:51.320 If 20% is even enough, uh, especially if you go back to the idea of all these cowardly people

00:45:56.580 who think, you know, are making a virtue of advice by not resisting and not doing anything.

00:46:01.040 20% is plenty.

00:46:02.500 So yeah, the jihad continues on a, you know, unabated and it's taken different forms.

00:46:07.360 And now one of them, the main one is this sort of baby demographic explosion.

00:46:12.300 And at the same time, as that report indicates, you know, Christianity is seeing a sort of

00:46:17.140 withdrawal.

00:46:17.580 And I think a lot of that is because modern day Western Christianity is just not appealing.

00:46:22.380 It's just, it's, it's become such an abstract idea.

00:46:25.600 You know, it's been stripped of everything, stripped of all sort of concrete, uh, you know,

00:46:30.780 a ritual is one aspect, but even more than ritual, it's stripped of history.

00:46:34.120 Um, and it's just an idea, you know, Oh, John 3, 16, that's it.

00:46:37.960 And now I live my life like a secular person.

00:46:39.900 So no wonder our churches are, you know, declining and falling away because we need a more robust

00:46:45.260 historic form of Christianity.

00:46:47.260 That is what appealed to people.

00:46:49.340 That's what men fought and died for as in, in, in those books, the two swords of Christ.

00:46:54.500 Um, and they're not going to do it for, you know, what, what's being, what's now being

00:46:58.420 paraded as Christianity, which is, which is, as I said, um, just a mask for craven 1.00

00:47:03.900 behavior, essentially.

00:47:05.140 Um, yeah, this is something that we've said on, um, on the show time and time again, that

00:47:11.480 coherence in religion is extremely compelling and that's true, whatever the religion is,

00:47:17.980 right?

00:47:18.180 And this is one of the reasons that we have, we find today this curious phenomenon that

00:47:23.360 a false religion is in a far stronger numerically, arithmetically, in terms of momentum, you 0.96

00:47:30.500 mentioned, I think the word, uh, demographic jihad, a false religion, um, in a far stronger

00:47:37.460 position than the true faith.

00:47:39.240 Let me just quote this thing here because I have the figures right in front of me from,

00:47:42.480 and this is the Washington Post.

00:47:43.700 Um, it says that Christianity's share of world population decreased by 1.8 percentage points

00:47:50.620 to 28.8%.

00:47:53.020 Um, and it says here, this is the Washington, I'm quoting the Washington Post, the fall off

00:47:57.120 is driven in large part by disaffiliation.

00:48:01.440 Um, I think Frank Walker and I, we could spend a whole hour talking over exactly what that

00:48:06.520 means.

00:48:06.900 Um, is it, the Muslim population on the other hand increased by 1.8 percentage points to

00:48:13.040 25.6.

00:48:15.500 Um, okay.

00:48:16.220 So I think that's really all we have time for.

00:48:19.180 Raymond Ibrahim, very, very honored and grateful for you to come on the show today.

00:48:23.340 Just very briefly, where do people go to get not only the Two Swords of, uh, Christ, but

00:48:28.840 the, the previous two books as well in the trilogy?

00:48:33.400 Yeah.

00:48:33.840 Thanks, Ben.

00:48:34.560 Uh, you can, you can order in a lot of places online, but easiest place probably is Amazon.

00:48:39.180 They're all available.

00:48:40.420 Um, Sword and Scimitar Defenders of the West.

00:48:42.460 The new book is actually not published yet, but you can pre-order it.

00:48:45.560 Um, and, uh, and like I said, um, but if you, and they all stand alone, you know, you don't

00:48:50.640 have to read them to understand them, but they do compliment each other because they're

00:48:54.580 kind of different, uh, lens on different kind of aspects of the crusades and these long

00:48:59.440 wars, uh, with Islam. 0.96

00:49:01.100 Um, but yeah, Amazon, you can probably order all of them right now.

00:49:05.080 And on X?

00:49:08.240 Yeah.

00:49:08.820 Yeah.

00:49:09.080 Uh, I'm on X, uh, uh, and I also start a new YouTube channel and invite everyone, uh,

00:49:14.140 to, to check it out.

00:49:15.240 It's called the Holy War channel where I discuss all these topics, um, and more.

00:49:19.540 So that's, that's fun too.

00:49:22.340 What's your, what's your handle on X?

00:49:23.680 Where do people go?

00:49:25.680 Uh, Ray, yeah, actually the best place to just go to my website, Raymond Ibrahim.com.

00:49:30.100 Okay.

00:49:30.500 And everything's there.

00:49:31.540 You'll find links to my X, uh, links to my Facebook, even though I'm shadow banned there.

00:49:36.280 So even if you follow me there, but, uh, and also to the YouTube stuff, as well as links

00:49:40.860 to the books on Amazon.

00:49:43.340 Raymond Ibrahim, thank you very much for coming on the show.

00:49:45.520 We'll catch up again with you soon.

00:49:47.300 Frank Walker, where do people go to get your, um, your, uh, your, your incredible Canon 212,

00:49:53.640 uh, output and your, your personal website?

00:49:56.500 What, what, what are the names there and your presence on social media?

00:49:59.100 Just type it in Canon 212 with one N C A N O N 2 1 2 and bookmark it. 1.00

00:50:06.960 And you can find me on X Canon 212, all spelled out.

00:50:11.340 And, uh, you'll see the video at the Canon 212 site and, um, also at Gloria TV.

00:50:16.580 And that's how you find me.

00:50:19.660 Frank, thanks very much.

00:50:20.900 And by the way, I just want to add folks that if you want to have, if you want to see,

00:50:24.680 um, any of the articles that we've referenced in today's show,

00:50:28.580 Frank's very kindly said that you can just go to Canon 212 and he'll have the links there

00:50:33.040 on his website.

00:50:34.560 So, um, that, that's why I, normally I point people to, to my hits on rumble,

00:50:38.660 but go to Frank's Canon 212 for the articles we've hit today.

00:50:42.600 Jenny, where do people go for your sub stack for your, for your presence, uh, on, on X,

00:50:47.720 on social media?

00:50:49.440 Uh, Jenny E. Holland dot sub stack. 0.76

00:50:51.960 And I'm Semper Femina 21 on X.

00:50:54.600 Um, later today, actually, I'll be publishing very short and very interesting.

00:50:58.580 essay about a Jesuit college in California, um, in which a postgraduate course has truly

00:51:04.780 unbelievable, um, violent, pornographic material training, family therapist, if you can believe

00:51:12.080 it.

00:51:12.340 So, uh, it's Jenny E. Holland dot sub stack.

00:51:16.460 Jenny, thanks very much for coming on the show.

00:51:18.080 Catch up again with you next Wednesday, folks.

00:51:20.420 Thanks very much for tuning in.

00:51:21.660 I didn't have time to, to mention the story I wanted to do, um, today, which is a piece,

00:51:26.360 um, in Associated Press that mentions what, of all things, the fact that they're looking

00:51:31.660 towards, uh, Pope Leo to bring in the cash to, to save his, uh, increasingly illiquid church.

00:51:39.580 It's what we've been saying here on The War Room, sort of, since, since his election,

00:51:42.900 folks.

00:51:43.380 Thanks very much for tuning in.

00:51:44.600 Thanks for Denver and, uh, Cameron Wallace for putting this show together.

00:51:47.820 Catch up with you soon.

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Bannon's War Room - June 11, 2025

WarRoom Battleground EP 787： Warnings About Islam’s “Demographic Jihad” Against The Judeo-Christian West

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