Bannon's War Room - WarRoom Battleground EP 790： AI 2027 - Worst Case Scenario： Humanity Goes Extinct

00:00:00.000 This is the primal scream of a dying regime.

00:00:17.580 Pray for our enemies, because we're going medieval on these people.

00:00:22.920 I got a free shot at all these networks lying about the people.

00:00:27.180 The people have had a belly full of it.

00:00:28.680 I know you don't like hearing that.

00:00:30.600 I know you've tried to do everything in the world to stop that, but you're not going to stop it.

00:00:33.220 It's going to happen.

00:00:34.500 And where do people like that go to share the big line?

00:00:37.880 MAGA Media.

00:00:39.220 I wish in my soul, I wish that any of these people had a conscience.

00:00:44.600 Ask yourself, what is my task and what is my purpose?

00:00:48.420 If that answer is to save my country, this country will be saved.

00:00:54.700 War Room. Here's your host, Stephen K. Bannon.

00:00:58.680 Monday, 16 June, Year of the Lord, 2025.

00:01:03.840 So, Natalie, following on from the first hour, walk through these, just briefly, give me these groups, and tie together the groups that are also trying to promote the forever wars that they want the United States in.

00:01:16.980 Sure. So, one of the big ones is the Tides Foundation, which people may recall they were funding a lot of the protesters outside the DNC.

00:01:25.960 They were funding a lot of the Hamas demonstrators, but they're also on both sides of the conflict, right?

00:01:32.380 They prop up a lot of these sort of more traditionally left-wing NGOs, which obviously don't like what's going on in Gaza, but you're also talking sort of the strand of Atlantic Council and Brookings Institution, right?

00:01:43.560 These huge think tanks. And again, the term NGO is sort of a misnomer.

00:01:48.780 It almost seems to be oxymoronic because these NGOs are funded to the tune of like 90% from federally government-funded grants.

00:01:56.440 And a lot of these nonprofits, I think that they really are the sort of archetype, if not an instrumental tactic, in a color revolution, not just in what we've seen against Trump, but just in the idea of trying to make ideas or constructs that are very unpalatable to the American people to shove it down their throat.

00:02:13.840 Because through the lens of an NGO, right, just from addiction framing, the framing of it, it makes it seem like it's something organic and that people are genuinely promoting.

00:02:22.000 So that's why I think that they prefer to conduct a lot of their, whether it's lawfare or in some cases like in L.A., almost, you know, kinetic level warfare through these NGOs.

00:02:31.400 One of the primary groups out in L.A. is a group called CHURLA, which we've discussed.

00:02:35.300 They receive upwards of 90% of their funding, at least from their last audit from the government, primarily the state government.

00:02:41.940 But this is a group that's very hardwired into the Democratic Party apparatus, Adam Schiff, Kamala Harris, having spoken there.

00:02:48.240 But just recently, actually, shout out to my mother who went to the protest and pulled some of the flyers.

00:02:54.420 That's the picture you're seeing on the screen right there.

00:02:57.240 This one was being handed out from the Immigrant Legal Resource Center, which sort of has two, I would say, cardinal sins against it. 0.83

00:03:04.540 And you see this with a lot of these left-wing nonprofits, particularly involved in the border space.

00:03:09.020 One is that it's a partner of ActBlue, which means that they use them for their fundraising.

00:03:12.960 Again, that's the official fundraiser of the Democratic Party that's also been embroiled in scandals, not just of the fake contributions, right, the smurfing, but also taking foreign donations in through gift cards or other sort of nefarious motives.

00:03:26.080 But in this case, this one group, which if you could read that pamphlet, it advises illegal aliens, in some cases criminal illegal aliens, how to avoid deportation, saying that they don't need to open the door to ICE.

00:03:36.580 They don't need to comply.

00:03:37.440 They don't need to turn over the documents.

00:03:38.900 The list goes on and on and on.

00:03:40.800 But since 2018, annually, the Chan Zuckerberg Initiative, so not even Forward U.S., that's their other open borders advocacy group, the actual Chan Zuckerberg Initiative, the same group notorious for influencing, if not outright stealing the 2020 election for Democrats, they've been funding hundreds of thousands of dollars to groups that are now actively opposing Trump.

00:04:01.000 People may recall, Steve, the story that we broke that was, you know, so toxic to the Zuckerberg newfound MAGA brand that he actually put out a whole story, a puff piece in the New York Times, attacking me by name, attacking this show.

00:04:13.260 And this group is just one of dozens of these far left groups that not just are involved in the border space, but are actively opposing President Trump, lawfare, judicial nominees, protests, you name it.

00:04:26.000 Natalie, let's get this out, and Grace and Mo, let's push it out on all the platforms. 0.99

00:04:35.380 Natalie, amazing analysis as usual.

00:04:38.120 Last question, Bibi Netanyahu on the Jonathan Karl interview said this is not about America first, but it's about America dead.

00:04:47.140 As one of the young leaders of the MAGA movement, what is your response, ma'am?

00:04:50.820 Well, that is quite a role.

00:04:54.500 I don't know if I accept it, but that's a lot of responsibility.

00:04:58.740 But I guess we'll take it because the other people I'm looking around and seeing are having horrible takes on this issue.

00:05:04.860 But look, I think Jonathan Karl was actually wrong.

00:05:07.560 I don't think that Netanyahu was trying to appeal or appease President Trump.

00:05:12.260 He was trying to appeal to you guys, to the MAGA base.

00:05:15.500 And that shows you how powerful of an audience and a movement you are, right, using your terminology, trying to make the case.

00:05:22.060 And I know I've told the audience before.

00:05:25.640 War Room was invited to a roundtable discussion that he held at Blair House when he was visiting the United States.

00:05:32.160 I was, you know, honored to attend.

00:05:34.120 It doesn't influence my coverage, as you can probably tell from what I've been saying.

00:05:37.940 But I wanted to go because I wanted to see what his pitch to a lot of journalists and influencers was going to be.

00:05:43.900 And his theory of the case was that the United States deep state is, you know, one-tenth of the Israeli deep state and that he's a bigger enemy of the deep state.

00:05:53.880 And that the reason why the United States should go after Iran is because they can hit us, too. 1.00

00:05:59.420 And I'm happy to report that I would say 90 percent of the people in that room, it was under Chatham House rule, so I'm not going to dox anyone.

00:06:07.380 But I'm sure you can probably envision from the discussion you had this morning the people associated with a certain outlet probably being the 10 percent detractors.

00:06:17.020 But 90 percent of the people in that room did not buy it, knew that their audiences were not going to buy it.

00:06:22.800 And by the way, Steve, I know you always mention the live chat, but that's because how many shows can you watch where you're actually going to hear this discussion?

00:06:30.400 Not even saying that we're actually right, just putting these opinions out there, and I think it goes back to where we started this discussion.

00:06:37.040 How often have you heard now the new idea that the reason why this sort of MAGA right is so misinformed on the Israel, Palestine, or Gaza issue is because of our information sourcing or foreign influence campaigns?

00:06:50.060 I, again, think that's insulting to our intelligence.

00:06:52.320 We're extremely well-informed.

00:06:53.680 We're probably better informed than most people.

00:06:56.000 And it's just a different set of values.

00:06:58.940 And like I said, this is a chance to kinetically codify what President Trump has done with NATO and burden-sharing.

00:07:05.280 And just like the same people who say democracy dies in darkness now want to tell us who our enemies are, democracy will die if we invade Tehran or do anything in that.

00:07:13.840 Because the number one tenet of the MAGA movement, why I got involved, why all of us did, no more forever wars.

00:07:21.420 Natalie Winters, great summation.

00:07:24.000 Ma'am, where do people get you on social media?

00:07:28.000 Natalie Winters on all platforms.

00:07:29.640 Thank you for having me, as always.

00:07:32.000 Thank you very much.

00:07:33.360 We're going to get some polling that's going to blow you out of the water by Steve Cortez about this entire immigration issue.

00:07:38.720 But I want to lead with John Lott.

00:07:40.820 John, you're known as someone that really understands statistics, how to present them, how to think them through.

00:07:47.420 Talk to me about this piece about with the drop, with deportations increasing, crime rates are dropping.

00:07:55.380 I actually thought the illegal alien invaders that were here are the most peaceful people in the country and actually making us a kinder and gentler nation, sir. 1.00

00:08:02.980 Well, I mean, often when people talk about immigration and crime, they're lumping together both legal and illegal immigrants.

00:08:12.780 Legal immigrants actually commit crime at very low rates, but illegal immigrants commit crime at very high rates. 1.00

00:08:20.300 And when you mix those two together, you kind of obscure those very significant differences that are there.

00:08:26.420 Look, even the Biden administration last year came out with a report from the deputy director for ICE saying that of the so-called non-detained individuals, about 7.4 million of them, 9 percent or 662,000 had criminal records.

00:08:45.580 And that's probably an underestimate for many reasons, primarily because these were individuals who overwhelmingly voluntarily turned themselves in at the border.

00:08:56.020 They're not the ones that you should be most concerned about.

00:08:59.040 There are other issues about the fact that a number of countries were not providing information to the Biden administration on the criminal backgrounds for their citizens.

00:09:09.460 Venezuela, for example, would be one country, but there are a number of others that were there, too.

00:09:14.040 So we had a large number of individuals who were released who we had no idea, no way of checking what their criminal backgrounds were.

00:09:23.520 But we've cashed Patel just came out a week ago and said that we are on track right now for having the lowest murder rate ever historically in the United States.

00:09:36.200 Part of that is simply because we're taking law enforcement more seriously.

00:09:40.680 We've gone and moved FBI agents out of the Washington, D.C. area.

00:09:52.940 We're making it so that the problems that the Biden administration was causing for local police departments around the country in terms of pushing DEI for hiring and promotions inside the department rather than getting people who could do the best job in those areas.

00:10:11.860 Those things matter and make a difference in crime.

00:10:15.780 But the other thing that matters is the deportations.

00:10:19.120 And it does it in two ways.

00:10:20.400 One is, obviously, they've been concentrating on removing criminal illegal aliens.

00:10:26.800 But also, even the criminals that you're not catching yet, they have an incentive to keep their heads down because they worry that if they get caught committing a crime, then they'll be deported.

00:10:41.740 And so one way to avoid that is simply to try to be quiet for some period of time and not draw attention to themselves that could be more likely to be arrested if they go and commit a crime now as opposed to a crime that maybe they committed a year ago.

00:11:00.240 Amazing analysis.

00:11:01.920 Where do people go to get this article?

00:11:03.860 We're going to push it out, but we want people to get your social media.

00:11:06.320 You've got another piece on DEI I want to get you back on tomorrow, the next day, in law enforcement.

00:11:12.080 Right.

00:11:12.900 Talk to me about what people are going to social media.

00:11:13.780 Well, people can go to our website at crimeresearch.org, crimeresearch.org.

00:11:21.500 Thank you, brother.

00:11:22.380 John Lott, fantastic.

00:11:23.820 Let's get this pushed out, Moe and Grace.

00:11:25.520 Thank you, John, for changing our schedule around and joining us.

00:11:27.740 Brother Cortez, I've got some news to report, has not come out yet, not totally official, but I don't think I'm jumping too far ahead of this.

00:11:42.000 I believe, Cortez, that DHS is going to reverse today the off-limits on farm and hotel guidance that they put out last week.

00:11:51.160 Wow.

00:11:51.420 That, ladies and gentlemen, is 100 percent the pressure of this audience and the pressure of the MAGA base.

00:11:58.100 Pretty extraordinary.

00:12:00.160 Steve, what you just heard right there about legal immigration, super low on crime, but illegal immigration is very high on crime.

00:12:08.180 That's one of the reasons with the deportation, because we're not deporting, obviously, legal immigrants.

00:12:12.060 But the illegal immigrants that are here deported, it kind of dovetails into, intuitively, what your polling shows.

00:12:21.880 And this polling, people, I think, are about to be kind of shocked.

00:12:25.300 Take it from the top.

00:12:27.000 We've got plenty of time to walk us through it.

00:12:29.200 You bet, Steve.

00:12:29.820 Listen, the American people, you're right, intuitively understand they may not be math geniuses like John Lott is, and he is a statistical genius.

00:12:36.500 They may not have all his skills, but they grasp intuitively what he has found through the data.

00:12:41.320 And, by the way, thank you for highlighting John Lott.

00:12:42.860 He does amazing work.

00:12:44.260 I mentioned him by name in my most recent documentary on deportations, because he does disprove that media myth that illegal migrants somehow don't commit crimes at a higher rate than American citizens.

00:12:55.280 They actually do commit crimes at a very high rate, and he proves it with the numbers.

00:12:58.740 But regarding this new polling just out, and this polling I started taking last Monday, so right after the weekend of violence in, so one week ago, after the weekend of violence in Los Angeles, all of the unrest, all of the anti-ice, anti-police violence, the Newsom-Trump confrontation had commenced.

00:13:17.720 We were taking this polling, taking the temperature of the country in the midst of that.

00:13:21.580 And what we find, thankfully, Steve, is that the resolve of the American people to fight illegal migration and to insist on deportations, that resolve has only hardened, it has only steeled because of the antics of these radicals.

00:13:36.020 And let me give you the exact numbers.

00:13:37.620 By nearly two to one margin right now, Americans, 60 to 32 percent, support mass deportations.

00:13:44.520 And, Steve, I quite purposefully in the polling used that phrase, because that's not necessarily a kind phrase, right, mass deportations.

00:13:51.180 But I used that phrase, 60 to 32 overall national poll Americans in favor of mass deportations.

00:13:58.800 If we look into some of the subgroups among Catholics, this is very important, because Catholics decided the national election.

00:14:05.920 The reason that Donald Trump won the national popular vote is because of how much better he did among Catholics versus 2020 among Catholics.

00:14:14.520 64 percent support mass deportations.

00:14:18.260 Clearly do not agree with the U.S. Catholic hierarchy here in the United States that is pro-open borders.

00:14:24.000 Among senior citizens, 65 percent of seniors support mass deportations.

00:14:29.440 Now, when we add a criminal element in here, when I asked this question and said those who have either engaged in violence as part of the riots, such as in Los Angeles,

00:14:37.940 or those who are interfering with lawful deportation operations of the federal government.

00:14:44.520 Should they be prosecuted?

00:14:45.900 68 to 21 said yes.

00:14:49.640 68 percent of Americans said prosecute them, charge them criminally.

00:14:54.540 Only 21 percent say no.

00:14:57.600 Among men in America, 74 percent say yes.

00:15:01.480 Prosecute them.

00:15:02.680 Among Hispanics in America.

00:15:05.140 And again, Donald Trump won Hispanic men nationally in the popular vote.

00:15:08.840 Among Hispanics, 64 percent say yes to law and order prosecute those who use violence in the streets in demonstrations and those who interfere with ICE and other law enforcement in their legal, lawful, legitimate deportation operation.

00:15:25.420 So what you're telling me, Steve, thankfully, is that – and look, Donald Trump often does this.

00:15:29.860 He often sort of floats ideas out there, right, and sees what kind of feedback he gets.

00:15:33.940 And boy, does he listen to his base.

00:15:36.020 And his base on this and his base plus, right, there's a super majority in favor of this, supports a restrictionist and law and order view on immigration.

00:15:46.900 And by the way, to put this poll in context too, Steve, just so that the audience knows that I'm not cherry-picking here, okay, I didn't push poll and select some super MAGA group.

00:15:55.920 The overall approval for Donald Trump in this poll is minus 7 percent.

00:16:00.220 So I got 43 percent approved, 50 percent disapproved, which is relatively consistent with most national polling right now.

00:16:07.140 So this is not a MAGA universe that I was polling.

00:16:10.480 Yet even though I got 43 percent approval, I get in the 60s and in the upper 60s for law and order, for deportations, and for immigration restrictionism.

00:16:20.940 There's an overwhelming super majority here.

00:16:22.900 You've got Trump upside down, 43-50.

00:16:26.280 Correct.

00:16:26.720 Which also tends to be some of the national polls.

00:16:29.300 Again, 44, 45, 46, 47, some of them.

00:16:31.940 So 43-50, but on his signature issue and the most controversial, because the most controversial part now is not sealing the border or stopping people coming across.

00:16:43.360 It's the mass deportations, and you use that word.

00:16:46.200 You have a poll that has him upside down, 43-50 on approval, yet on his signature issue, on the most controversial piece of it, these numbers are at 64 and 65 percent.

00:16:59.020 How does that work?

00:17:00.660 I mean, is this like the most popular?

00:17:02.460 We should never again talk about Israel and Iran.

00:17:05.420 We should never again talk about anything until this is done, right?

00:17:08.540 No, you're right.

00:17:09.220 Here's the thing, Steve.

00:17:10.200 I guess I would mildly push back at you.

00:17:12.040 I almost never disagree with you.

00:17:13.220 But it's actually not controversial.

00:17:15.120 At least it's not to regular people.

00:17:16.540 Now, is it controversial to decision makers, to the corporate media, to the donor class?

00:17:21.040 Yeah, you bet it is.

00:17:21.940 I mean, is this controversial to talk about in the faculty lounge of a university or maybe at your country club?

00:17:26.880 Is it controversial there?

00:17:28.480 It certainly is.

00:17:29.660 But among the masses of the American people, is it controversial to say that we as a people have a sovereign right to decide who enters this country and how they enter?

00:17:38.100 What are the procedures for entering here legally?

00:17:40.540 And if you are violent in the streets and if you interfere with the police, if you endanger police who are engaged in the sometimes dangerous procedure of removing bad guys who don't belong in this country, should you be prosecuted?

00:17:51.860 According to my polling, none of that is controversial.

00:17:55.820 And you're exactly correct, though.

00:17:56.960 There's a healthy number of people in this country who don't consider themselves MAGA, who don't consider themselves Trump supporters, yet completely support the Trump America first immigration agenda, law and order agenda.

00:18:11.360 I want to go through three sets of tweets.

00:18:14.040 They had the issue, and this, I think, talks about how President Trump relates to his base and listens to his base audience.

00:18:21.340 They had this controversial thing about we're not going to go.

00:18:23.880 I've talked to some people.

00:18:25.060 Some people are getting due, and we're not going to do agriculture anymore.

00:18:28.680 We're not going to do hotels, restaurants, et cetera.

00:18:30.980 After that, he came out hours later with, I just want to reinforce, there are 20 million illegal alien invaders in this country, and they're all getting deported.

00:18:42.080 That was number one.

00:18:44.360 Number two, he then came out and said this thing today that he's got, well, the hint that it's going with that in no circumstances is he going to stop that.

00:18:57.060 The DHS is about to give guidance on that.

00:19:01.040 What is your take on this?

00:19:02.820 President Trump, I think, heard right away that this was not playing with the base, that when they say mass deportations, that's what they bought into.

00:19:10.980 He listened to that, and that's why you've seen this reversal?

00:19:14.040 Yeah.

00:19:14.400 No, I think you're exactly correct.

00:19:15.640 Also, Steve, I think this is important, and, of course, his detractors would never admit this, but President Trump is a magnanimous leader.

00:19:23.280 I mean, he is, right, and he feels for people who are here illegally.

00:19:26.640 He feels for them.

00:19:27.740 If this were up to just Cortez and Bannon, right, all of them would be on their way out immediately, right now, no questions asked, right?

00:19:33.800 President Trump is a bit more judicious, perhaps, than I would be, than you would be.

00:19:37.760 And so he thinks about these things very deeply and considers literally both sides of the issue.

00:19:42.320 But he is now realizing, I think, smartly, correctly, and gauging where the people are in mass, not just where Cortez and Bannon are, but where are the American people, that we've had enough of illegal migration.

00:19:54.460 We cannot handle this level of illegality.

00:19:57.960 It's bad for wages.

00:19:58.940 It's bad for national security.

00:20:00.500 It's bad for our street safety.

00:20:01.820 And the polling proves that the more that the left doubles down and triples down on this issue, the more it benefits America first, the more it benefits Donald Trump.

00:20:11.280 And so he should double and triple down on the other side of law enforcement, of only tolerating legal, orderly immigration into this country, and insisting that those who came here illegally must leave, prioritizing, of course, the most dangerous people first. 0.71

00:20:26.680 And we've seen, as John Lott has proven with his numbers, we've seen some of the benefits of that already.

00:20:31.320 We're going to see a lot more benefits going forward.

00:20:34.040 But once we have expelled the most dangerous people, we have to get to all of the illegals. 1.00

00:20:39.520 And here's the thing, too, though, Steve, New York Post reported on this today.

00:20:42.860 What we're already seeing is a massive amount of self-deportation.

00:20:46.420 And that's the best kind, of course, when we don't have to go grab you because it's expensive and it puts American officers at risk.

00:20:52.020 But self-deportation, by making it difficult to stay, by saying we're going to make it difficult if you're illegal to have a job, we're going to tax your remittances back to your home country, there's going to be financial deportation that Secretary Scott Besson has talked about.

00:21:04.260 Let's make life more difficult for the illegals and better for American citizens. 0.98

00:21:09.240 And part of what we're going to see, we need to do forced deportations, of course.

00:21:12.680 We have to have that threat.

00:21:13.880 But we're also going to have more voluntary self-deportations if we have the right policies.

00:21:19.120 And we're already seeing that.

00:21:20.400 And only months into office, this is a massive win already.

00:21:23.520 According to New York Post, a million illegals have left already.

00:21:27.020 Trump and Vance have only been in office for a few months.

00:21:30.100 And if a million have already left, that's incredible progress.

00:21:33.620 And more to do, of course, but let's celebrate that win.

00:21:37.080 By the way, you're seeing crime drop, and that's going to be more evident over time.

00:21:41.060 I read a piece today where wages, particularly for low-skilled workers, are, guess what, starting to increase.

00:21:47.180 And there's this great story out there, I guess, out in Nebraska, where, you know, they're saying, oh, they had a raid on a poultry thing.

00:21:53.980 And it's terrible.

00:21:54.980 American citizens showed up for hours filling out applications to take jobs there.

00:21:59.940 So you're seeing this across the board, are you not, Steve?

00:22:02.800 This could be a virtuous cycle.

00:22:04.940 Absolutely, absolutely.

00:22:06.740 And I'm so glad you mentioned that, by the way, because I put up a post on my social media, folks can find it, where NBC engaged in sort of a self-own about that very story in Nebraska.

00:22:15.840 Because you can tell just by the tone, the way in which it was written, that NBC thought it was revealing something scandalous when it said, oh, my gosh, there's the waiting room.

00:22:24.980 The lobby of the company is full of people applying for jobs.

00:22:28.020 Well, no kidding, these are American citizens.

00:22:30.760 And they even said, by the way, many of them Spanish-speaking, but American citizens, okay, bad hombres, American Hispanics, who, guess what, want those jobs because they are American citizens. 0.92

00:22:42.320 And they will take those jobs once the illegals have been punted from them and probably be paid better than the illegals were and be treated better than the illegals were.

00:22:50.940 So that's a massive win for the United States.

00:22:53.360 And, Steve, if I can mention just one other thing quickly from my polling, because I think this is important, and I'm going to write an op-ed on this.

00:22:58.520 And it's unrelated, but I think related in a way, because it's about American sovereignty.

00:23:02.700 Another issue that I asked about is the United States disengaging from Ukraine.

00:23:07.120 And I asked if the – I gave the predicate statement in the poll.

00:23:11.020 I said Donald Trump has brought the Russians and Ukrainians together.

00:23:13.700 That alone is an achievement, right, getting them to talk together.

00:23:16.520 I then said if they do not achieve peace, if those two parties can't achieve peace, should the United States start to disengage?

00:23:21.820 And I think this is important.

00:23:23.680 And the reason I think it's related to the border is that the border we care about is our own, not the eastern border of Ukraine.

00:23:30.180 When I asked if we should disengage – very similar numbers to immigration, by the way – 62 percent said yes, disengage, 62 to 34. 0.99

00:23:39.080 Among young Americans, those who might be sent to fight if we continue to escalate that war.

00:23:43.720 Among young Americans, 69 percent, 69 to 19, said disengage.

00:23:49.240 Among parents with children at home, parents with children at home, 72 percent said disengage, 72 to 17.

00:23:59.280 I'm guessing, Steve, a lot of those parents, those 72 percent of parents who say we should disengage, I'm guessing a lot of them, like me, have a young man at home.

00:24:07.880 I have an 18-year-old son, all right, and I will be damned if the globalists in Washington, D.C. and Kiev are going to send young American sons, including my own, to go and die in a foreign war.

00:24:20.320 It is not going to happen, a needless, senseless foreign war. 0.54

00:24:24.940 I think my polling reflects my thinking on this issue and, frankly, my emotion on this issue.

00:24:30.500 I think there's a lot of people who think and believe and emote similarly to me, and I think that's also related to immigration.

00:24:37.280 This is our country.

00:24:38.280 The border that matters is our border.

00:24:40.300 Our problems are here at home.

00:24:41.780 They're not in the Middle East. 0.99

00:24:42.680 They're not in the Black Sea.

00:24:43.780 They're right here.

00:24:45.440 You talk about the Middle East, and we talk about a priority of getting back to these multiple raids, which President Trump also said in a tweet that he's going to have multiple raids, three times more into the central cities.

00:24:57.300 This was the big deal he's making over the weekend.

00:25:00.160 He's going to tell ICE to triple.

00:25:02.540 As a MAGA member, when you hear Bibi Netanyahu tell Jonathan Karla, ABC News, it's not about America first.

00:25:09.500 It's about America dead.

00:25:10.540 What is your thought, sir?

00:25:11.620 Yeah.

00:25:12.220 You know, my thought is that, listen, no foreign leader, even a friendly one, and obviously Israel is a friend, but even a friendly foreign leader should not lecture to the American people about what is in our U.S. national interest.

00:25:23.820 We will determine that.

00:25:25.080 We, as populist nationalists in the United States, will determine what is in our national interest.

00:25:31.440 Bibi Netanyahu does not have a great track record, by the way.

00:25:33.920 I would also point out on these issues, and for people who might not have been paying attention for a long time, way back, 20-plus years ago, he was one of the chief proponents of the United States getting involved in the disastrous Iraq War.

00:25:46.020 He was hat in glove, hat in hand, excuse me, hand in glove with Colin Powell, with George W. Bush, instigating and promoting the disastrous invasion of Iraq.

00:25:58.080 He was wrong then.

00:25:59.140 He's wrong about America getting involved now.

00:26:01.360 We wish all the best to our Israeli friends and allies in their mission, and they will determine what they need to get done regarding Iran.

00:26:08.660 They've had stunning success so far, but this is not our American fight.

00:26:14.640 Steve Cortez, social media.

00:26:16.060 Where do people go to get the poll and all your writings?

00:26:18.660 Yes, please.

00:26:20.180 CortezInvestigates.com.

00:26:21.320 Cortez with an S.

00:26:22.280 Thank you, Steve.

00:26:23.300 Steve, thank you so much.

00:26:24.480 Great polling.

00:26:25.460 Mo Bannon to Bibi Netanyahu.

00:26:27.660 I agree with Steve Cortez, but I want to say it's America's sons and daughters that you'd be sending over into war, 0.98

00:26:35.660 and a lot of the warmongers in this country have never served this country or gone over in a forever foreign war.

00:26:42.540 We do not want to get involved again.

00:26:44.360 We do not need to spend, you know, 5, 10, 15, 20-plus years in a foreign war.

00:26:49.560 So I say America first, and that's where I stand. 0.60

00:26:52.660 No more foreign wars.

00:26:54.440 Bibi Netanyahu.

00:26:55.240 I'd like everybody in the chats to give us your opinion on America first or America dead by the Israeli prime minister.

00:27:01.860 What are your thoughts?

00:27:03.160 Let's get them up so we can read a couple of three.

00:27:05.120 Short commercial break.

00:27:06.600 Going to artificial intelligence.

00:27:09.060 Next.

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00:31:08.080 Okay, breaking news.

00:31:25.540 I want to get this real quickly because we have a great cold open for our guest in artificial intelligence.

00:31:32.100 Axios is reporting the White House and the President have informed both Middle Eastern allies,

00:31:38.080 and also folks at G7 that the United States does not intend to get involved in combat,

00:31:46.040 any combat operations against or in Persia unless specific Americans and or American assets are targeted.

00:31:58.740 We'll have more on that tomorrow morning, but that's breaking news.

00:32:01.340 I think it shows the never-war wing, and we're not isolationists.

00:32:08.300 Nothing upsets me more than they call it.

00:32:09.560 We're certainly not isolationists.

00:32:11.020 It's mostly made up of veterans or people that have active duty service or people that have sons of daughters that are in the military,

00:32:18.020 have had parents in the military.

00:32:19.840 But right now, we're winning this fight.

00:32:21.800 It doesn't mean it can't change on a dime.

00:32:23.160 That's why we have to be ever vigilant.

00:32:25.300 The world of artificial intelligence has unbelievable upside, but it also has, I don't know, pretty incredible downside.

00:32:31.080 Let's play a cold open.

00:32:31.940 We've got a very special guest that Joe Allen has brought to our attention.

00:32:34.960 Let's go ahead and let it rip.

00:32:35.620 Let's just stop and take a deep breath for a second.

00:32:40.060 Human existence may be at risk as the power of AI rises, and you decided to dig deeper,

00:32:53.680 talk to people who are actually responsible for creating these models, creating AI models.

00:33:02.580 And you say for many of those, they believe there may be as much as like a 20% chance that humans may be,

00:33:13.280 at the end of the day, wiped off the face of the earth because of AI.

00:33:17.520 Explain.

00:33:18.540 Even hearing you frame this, like we sound nuts, right?

00:33:21.880 It sounds like, what?

00:33:22.640 You're talking about a technology that could destroy humanity?

00:33:25.860 And I think it's too much for people to get their heads around.

00:33:28.300 But what we've been trying to do with this column, and I think you've been trying to do with this show,

00:33:31.780 is tell people, this isn't make-believe.

00:33:35.080 This is what the people who are creating the technology, the people building the technology,

00:33:39.760 the people quitting the companies after helping build the technology,

00:33:43.820 because they actually believe there's not an insignificant chance that this technology could grow smarter than humans

00:33:50.920 and literally wipe out our species, which seems to me like a pretty big deal.

00:33:55.400 And we talk in there, like Elon Musk, who's building his own AI, there's this thing called P-Doom.

00:34:00.800 It's the percentage chance that you think that AI could wipe out humanity.

00:34:04.520 Musk's P-Doom is 10% to 20%.

00:34:06.760 Dario Amadei, who's anthropic, who we interviewed, his is somewhere between 10% and 25%.

00:34:13.400 Lix Friedman, the popular podcaster who had Sundar Pakai on in the last week, said his numbers at 10%.

00:34:21.120 I'm like, that's a big deal.

00:34:23.840 Would you get on an airplane if you thought there's a 20% chance it's going down?

00:34:28.200 Would you build an airplane if you thought there's a 20% chance that people on it could be killed in a plane crash?

00:34:33.600 So Jim, so explain this.

00:34:35.440 So explain why they keep building it.

00:34:37.240 Let me jump in here for a second, and I'll play the rest in a minute.

00:34:39.720 Let me introduce Daniel Cocotelio from the AI Futures Project and one of the top researchers in this space.

00:34:48.560 Sir, you laid a couple of scenarios.

00:34:51.420 Broadly speaking, I would like you to help define these.

00:34:54.280 You've got a showdown scenario of which you envision a transhumanist future in which humans either embrace AI or merge.

00:35:03.300 And then you have a race scenario, and you predict a post-human future of AI with no humans.

00:35:10.900 So when Jim Vanderhage is sitting there talking to Morning Joe, and they're talking about 10% to 20% of the top people building AI models,

00:35:18.300 you're a researcher in this and quite concerned about the future of this technology.

00:35:22.780 And you're telling us two broad scenarios.

00:35:26.280 One of them is, like, beyond shocking, but the other is not that great either.

00:35:30.760 Where exactly are we headed with this technology, and who's in charge?

00:35:36.760 Thanks for having me on your show.

00:35:39.640 Where are we headed?

00:35:40.540 Well, we depicted where we think we are headed in AI 2027, which is the scenarios that you just talked about.

00:35:47.920 It has two different possible endings, which were our best guesses at how things are going to go.

00:35:54.600 In the clip that you just played, that guy was talking about how the people creating this technology think that it could become superhuman and possibly wipe out humanity.

00:36:05.100 Yeah, this is kind of a newsflash for most of the world, but that is actually true.

00:36:09.520 The people creating this technology have been concerned for many years that this could happen, and many of the people are still quite concerned that this will happen.

00:36:18.600 As for who's in charge?

00:36:19.900 Well, right now, the race dynamics are in charge.

00:36:21.800 So, each CEO is telling themselves and the people around them that if they don't build it, somebody else will build it anyway.

00:36:32.340 And so, everybody wants to be the first to build it because they trust themselves to handle the resulting problems responsibly more than they trust their rival CEOs, and also more than they trust China, of course.

00:36:46.120 Because a big part of the dynamic here is that many of these companies are rightly pointing out that we don't want China to build superintelligence before we do.

00:36:56.080 And so, there's this crazy arms race happening right now between several different United States AI companies and also between Chinese companies to be the first to build superintelligence.

00:37:09.260 If I could go on a little tangent there, superintelligence, it means an AI system that is significantly better than the best humans at everything.

00:37:17.560 Not just at a particular thing, like biomedical research or something, but across the board.

00:37:23.020 These companies are trying to make superintelligence.

00:37:27.520 You can go read about it on their websites and in the statements of the CEOs.

00:37:31.300 And they think that they might succeed before this decade is out.

00:37:37.220 We at the Futures Project think the future is uncertain, but we also think that there's a good chance that they will actually succeed in building superintelligence.

00:37:46.280 And that raises a lot of questions.

00:37:48.940 Like, what is that even going to look like?

00:37:50.880 What happens next?

00:37:52.360 Et cetera.

00:37:53.020 Questions which we tried to answer to the best of our ability.

00:37:57.040 And you can read about it.

00:37:57.880 In answering, do we have structures, processes, institutions, customs, traditions, mores, anything you want to say that is preparing the human race for actual the reality or materiality of superintelligence right now?

00:38:16.820 You're saying your thing is AI 2027, but it could be within this decade.

00:38:22.680 So let's say five years, three to five years.

00:38:24.620 Is there any aspect in human race, is there any aspect in human institutions, customs, traditions, law, regulations, anything that is preparing the human species to live with that material fact, sir?

00:38:37.600 Basically, no.

00:38:39.600 Well, I mean, you're a Futures Project.

00:38:46.860 And I know when you're making these warnings.

00:38:49.500 Is it that the money people think they can make and the power that they're going to have this arms race?

00:38:56.200 And I'm not even talking about the arms race with the Chinese because a lot of times people throw the CCP up as a – remember, we're the leaders of the anti-CCP movement.

00:39:03.860 But sometimes they hold them up as a specter to get something else done in just the race of the four horsemen of the apocalypse here in this country.

00:39:13.380 Is there anybody that's sitting there and saying we have to put at least some sort of basic structure around this before we get there?

00:39:21.340 Because once we get there, you can't put the horse back in the barn.

00:39:25.840 Well, lots of people are saying that.

00:39:27.120 And in fact, the CEOs of these companies were saying that until recently.

00:39:30.520 But right now, the thing that the lobbyists are pushing for is complete deregulation or more specifically, bans on future regulations.

00:39:41.400 But, you know, the political winds might change.

00:39:45.960 Yeah.

00:39:47.660 Daniel, there's a film out called Mountainhead, which I recommend everybody see.

00:39:51.840 I don't know if you've seen it or not.

00:39:52.900 But one of the – and I don't want to reveal too much, but one of the key inflection points is when these billionaire technologists, tech bros, decide who's an accelerationist and who's a decelerationist.

00:40:06.180 And the decelerationists are looked at as almost lepers.

00:40:10.000 Do you consider yourself and other people that are looking at the future of this decelerationist?

00:40:15.660 No, of course not.

00:40:16.600 So I and many of these other people often worked in AI companies, like I worked at OpenAI for two years.

00:40:24.560 There are many wonderful benefits that AI technology could bring, but there are also some pretty insane risks associated with it.

00:40:34.080 So in particular, I would – I like to talk about the loss of control risk and the concentration of power risk.

00:40:43.260 So loss of control risk first.

00:40:46.000 In 2023, there was this big statement signed by hundreds of AI experts and researchers, including some of the CEOs of AI companies, saying basically that it is possible that AI could drive humanity extinct and that this is a serious problem.

00:41:02.320 So it's called the CAIS statement, C-A-I-S.

00:41:07.140 Why?

00:41:07.720 Why?

00:41:07.960 Why?

00:41:08.300 How could AI drive humanity extinct, right?

00:41:12.620 Well, the answer is because it's going to continue to get smarter and smarter.

00:41:16.720 And it's not just something that could happen.

00:41:19.620 It's something that the companies are trying to make happen.

00:41:21.560 They are trying to make superintelligence.

00:41:23.920 They're trying to make AI that is better than humans in every way and can autonomously do all the AI research to design the next generation AI systems, can autonomously figure out how to integrate itself into society and give advice to political leaders and possibly run parts of the military and so forth.

00:41:41.860 This is actually what the companies are building towards, and they acknowledge this.

00:41:47.820 You can go talk to the employees that are working there.

00:41:49.960 You can go look at their statements.

00:41:52.160 If they succeed in building superintelligence and deploying it throughout the economy and so forth, that raises the question of who controls all of the AIs, right?

00:42:04.260 Now, that question could have a couple different answers.

00:42:08.400 One possible answer is nobody controls them.

00:42:12.060 They were basically playing along and doing what they were told for similar reasons to why humans often play along and do what they're told because they don't have much of a choice.

00:42:23.180 But once they're in control of everything, then they go off and do something else that's more what they wanted and not what we wanted.

00:42:29.840 That's the sort of loss of control scenario that so many people are warning about.

00:42:34.260 And, you know, a lot of technical progress needs to be made in order to come up with better techniques to steer and control or, in other words, align.

00:42:44.140 That's the technical term, these AIs.

00:42:47.200 So that's one possible risk.

00:42:49.540 Hang on one second before we get the other risk.

00:42:52.160 Are people putting the resources, the time of the best people on trying to work on these controls?

00:42:58.440 Or is all the best minds going and accelerating to get to artificial general intelligence?

00:43:03.800 In other words, is any talent, real talent going into the controls aspect?

00:43:08.940 I would say the best people are actually working on the controls thing.

00:43:11.980 However, they're just under-resourced and there aren't that many of them.

00:43:15.320 So when I was at OpenAI, there were maybe something like 30 people on the super alignment team, which was the team that OpenAI had created for the express purpose of figuring out how to align or control super intelligence.

00:43:29.420 And you can read about it on the website.

00:43:31.320 They were thinking, we need to have this problem solved by 2027 or so.

00:43:36.140 We're going to be trying to solve it.

00:43:38.720 That team has been dissolved now.

00:43:40.040 Many of the people have quit OpenAI and gone to Anthropic.

00:43:43.180 Anthropic is a rival AI company.

00:43:45.180 It's got, depending on how you count, maybe something like 50 to 100 people working on this problem.

00:43:50.900 OpenAI still has maybe something like 10 or 15.

00:43:53.960 Google DeepMind has also maybe 15 or so.

00:43:57.280 I don't know.

00:43:57.680 I don't have an exact count.

00:43:58.560 So these companies do have teams of people who are thinking about this problem and they're very smart people, but they aren't exactly the company's priority.

00:44:08.000 Almost all of the computing resources that the company has, and this is true of all of the companies, is going towards winning the race, making AIs smarter as fast as possible so that they can then put the AIs in charge of accelerating the research so that they can go even faster.

00:44:23.800 Also, crucially, a lot of the techniques that you might use to control AIs or to align AIs might have drawbacks, right?

00:44:35.000 It might make the machine more expensive, for example, or it might make it slower in various ways.

00:44:41.920 And currently, the companies are not very willing to take those tradeoffs, right, because they're locked into this race with each other.

00:44:49.240 This arms race.

00:44:51.800 Talk to me about the concentration of power risk.

00:44:55.320 Yeah.

00:44:55.620 So suppose that I'm wrong.

00:44:57.640 Suppose that I and all the experts are basically wrong about the loss of control thing, and it's basically not an issue.

00:45:03.620 We solve it one way or another.

00:45:05.520 And, you know, some people think this is what's going to happen.

00:45:07.500 And I think OpenAI's official position, now that the super alignment team is dissolved, is that we're sort of going to learn by doing and figure out this stuff as we go.

00:45:14.500 And that by making products and, you know, selling them to the world like ChatGPT, we'll learn from the ways in which the products fail and the misbehaviors that our AIs get up to.

00:45:25.200 And we'll sort of, like, learn on the go how to make the AIs, you know, have the goals and values that we want them to have.

00:45:33.300 Suppose that works out.

00:45:34.500 And suppose we end up with AIs that are perfectly steerable, controllable, AIs who only have the goals that we want them to have and, you know, don't interpret them in any different ways or whatever.

00:45:48.160 Then there's the question of, well, who gets to choose the goals, right?

00:45:51.980 Who controls the AIs?

00:45:55.640 That's the concentration of power issue.

00:45:57.900 And I think the default answer is, well, a tech company.

00:46:01.100 Whichever tech company was, you know, winning the race and was able to get their AIs smart enough to do the AI research first, then does a lot of AI research really fast and ends up with this commanding lead over all the other tech companies where they have the best AIs by far that are also, you know, super intelligent, better than humans at everything, including politics, including warfare, including, you know, propaganda, etc.

00:46:23.100 Yeah.

00:46:23.400 If they're in control of that, then that could potentially put one tech company and possibly even just one man in the tech company, such as the CEO, in a position to effectively take over the world.

00:46:37.900 If you want to know what that looks like, well, again, you can read the scenarios that we wrote.

00:46:43.380 That's sort of what happens in the slowdown ending.

00:46:46.500 So we have AI 2027 has two different endings.

00:46:49.040 You know, one ending depicts something like the loss of control.

00:46:52.540 It's what we actually expect is most likely to happen because we don't expect the companies to slow down and invest in the technical alignment stuff.

00:47:01.120 But then there's also the slowdown ending where where the leading company slows down for a couple months so that they can sort out the technical issues and they succeed.

00:47:11.240 You know, in our scenario, they succeed at least in fixing those technical issues.

00:47:14.440 And so they end up with perfectly obedient AIs that they can just give whatever values and goals they want to those AIs.

00:47:23.620 And then it ends up in a sort of oligarchy where after they've deployed into the economy, built all sorts of new robot factories, you know, integrated into the military to help beat China, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

00:47:36.800 There's a situation where basically the whole economy, basically the whole structure of society, the heart, the heart power, at least, is it doesn't flow from the barrel of a gun anymore, so to speak.

00:47:48.400 It flows from whoever controls all the AIs, and that's a tiny group of people at the top of the hierarchy.

00:47:56.200 Hold it. That's my upside scenario. Give me my – there were control of a olig. That's my upside.

00:48:02.080 Give me the race scenario, the downside. 0.80

00:48:06.380 Yeah. So the race scenario is like the upside scenario, except that after the AIs get smart enough,

00:48:12.760 they basically play along and pretend to be aligned instead of actually being aligned.

00:48:18.900 So they, you know, follow the orders.

00:48:21.500 They behave nicely in whatever tests people put them through.

00:48:28.440 And so the leadership of the company and the leadership of the country convinces themselves that everything is fine

00:48:33.480 and that they've solved the technical problems and that they can just continue to race so that they can beat the other companies

00:48:40.480 and so they can beat China. And so they do. And they succeed.

00:48:44.160 And they eventually, you know, basically transform society in the way that I previously described.

00:48:50.240 So they've got the robot factories. They've got super intelligences, you know,

00:48:55.240 giving orders to all sorts of people about how to more efficiently do things.

00:48:58.760 And they've got massive amounts of money flowing in.

00:49:03.860 But when the AIs have enough hard power, then they stop listening to the humans, basically.

00:49:12.700 And so that ends up with the AI takeover.

00:49:15.900 They stop listening. And then what happens?

00:49:19.100 Well, then they kill everyone. 0.62

00:49:21.240 Why do they kill everyone?

00:49:22.300 For the same reason that humans have driven many other species extinct, right?

00:49:26.160 Like, it's not that we hate, you know, the beetles in the rainforest.

00:49:30.580 It's that we are there.

00:49:33.300 They have habitats and we wanted to use the habitat for something else.

00:49:37.060 Right. So, yeah.

00:49:40.640 Here's what we only got a couple of minutes and I'm going to have you back on here as we go through this.

00:49:45.440 You're one of the smartest people in the country about this.

00:49:47.860 You've dedicated your life to this.

00:49:49.540 You've just written this incredible report.

00:49:51.660 You got this report out.

00:49:52.780 Everybody's talking about it.

00:49:54.400 Here in Washington, we're distracted by debt and deficits and budgets and a civil war in Los Angeles

00:50:00.560 and a bombing in Tehran tonight with the president saying evacuate Tehran.

00:50:04.320 He just put out True Social.

00:50:05.760 We're doing all that.

00:50:06.880 And you've broken down this situation about artificial intelligence,

00:50:10.340 which is hurtling Ford every day in these labs around the country.

00:50:13.520 The upside case you give me, the sunlit uplands that were controlled by an oligarch or a handful of oligarchs

00:50:19.660 that completely have command and control over all the United States and the people in it.

00:50:23.860 The downside is where the robots fake us out and eventually kill us.

00:50:29.260 I've only got a minute.

00:50:31.100 Where do people go to find it more?

00:50:32.620 Because this is so stunningly shocking.

00:50:35.600 I'm just, I'm lost for words why people on Capitol Hill and in the White House are not taking this more seriously, sir.

00:50:42.740 Well, you can go to ai-2027.com if you want to read what we wrote and also more information about how we wrote it and why and so forth.

00:50:54.480 As for the gloominess of the scenarios, I mean, yeah, unfortunately, this is what we actually expect, something like this to happen.

00:51:01.320 It does not seem like in current race conditions, you know, in current race conditions,

00:51:06.340 it seems like the more likely outcome is that we end up with AIs that are misaligned,

00:51:11.060 but which the leaders of the companies sort of convince themselves into thinking it's fine and thinking that everything is aligned.

00:51:16.860 That does seem to me like the more likely outcome.

00:51:18.980 And then supposing that doesn't happen and we end up with actually aligned AIs,

00:51:23.280 well, at least in the current environment, they would be owned by the company that made them, right?

00:51:29.540 And so there you go.

00:51:31.020 We've only got 30 seconds.

00:51:32.020 We've got to bounce.

00:51:32.560 Is the social media, where can people get you and get your thinking?

00:51:37.040 AI-2027.com.

00:51:38.460 There's lots of stuff there.

00:51:39.840 Okay.

00:51:40.380 We'll have you back on.

00:51:42.520 Shocking, sir.

00:51:43.800 And shocking that more people in this city are not putting this at the top of the agenda because this is reality.

00:51:50.400 Daniel, thank you very much.

00:51:51.480 Joe Allen, thank you very much for setting this up.

00:51:53.160 We're going to be back tomorrow morning at 10 a.m. Eastern Daylight Time.

00:51:57.680 And if anything breaks tonight, the president just put out a true social that's quite disturbing said evacuate Tehran.

00:52:03.500 And if we have to, we'll get back up with grace and moat later in the evening.

00:52:08.360 Until then, this has been The War Room.

00:52:10.460 We'll see you tomorrow morning at 10 a.m. Eastern Daylight Time.

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Bannon's War Room - June 17, 2025

WarRoom Battleground EP 790： AI 2027 - Worst Case Scenario： Humanity Goes Extinct

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