In this episode, we take a deep dive into the role of left-wing NGOs in the anti-Trump movement, and how they're funded by the Democratic Party and other liberal organizations that oppose President Trump's immigration policies.
00:00:39.220I wish in my soul, I wish that any of these people had a conscience.
00:00:44.600Ask yourself, what is my task and what is my purpose?
00:00:48.420If that answer is to save my country, this country will be saved.
00:00:54.700War Room. Here's your host, Stephen K. Bannon.
00:00:58.680Monday, 16 June, Year of the Lord, 2025.
00:01:03.840So, Natalie, following on from the first hour, walk through these, just briefly, give me these groups, and tie together the groups that are also trying to promote the forever wars that they want the United States in.
00:01:16.980Sure. So, one of the big ones is the Tides Foundation, which people may recall they were funding a lot of the protesters outside the DNC.
00:01:25.960They were funding a lot of the Hamas demonstrators, but they're also on both sides of the conflict, right?
00:01:32.380They prop up a lot of these sort of more traditionally left-wing NGOs, which obviously don't like what's going on in Gaza, but you're also talking sort of the strand of Atlantic Council and Brookings Institution, right?
00:01:43.560These huge think tanks. And again, the term NGO is sort of a misnomer.
00:01:48.780It almost seems to be oxymoronic because these NGOs are funded to the tune of like 90% from federally government-funded grants.
00:01:56.440And a lot of these nonprofits, I think that they really are the sort of archetype, if not an instrumental tactic, in a color revolution, not just in what we've seen against Trump, but just in the idea of trying to make ideas or constructs that are very unpalatable to the American people to shove it down their throat.
00:02:13.840Because through the lens of an NGO, right, just from addiction framing, the framing of it, it makes it seem like it's something organic and that people are genuinely promoting.
00:02:22.000So that's why I think that they prefer to conduct a lot of their, whether it's lawfare or in some cases like in L.A., almost, you know, kinetic level warfare through these NGOs.
00:02:31.400One of the primary groups out in L.A. is a group called CHURLA, which we've discussed.
00:02:35.300They receive upwards of 90% of their funding, at least from their last audit from the government, primarily the state government.
00:02:41.940But this is a group that's very hardwired into the Democratic Party apparatus, Adam Schiff, Kamala Harris, having spoken there.
00:02:48.240But just recently, actually, shout out to my mother who went to the protest and pulled some of the flyers.
00:02:54.420That's the picture you're seeing on the screen right there.
00:02:57.240This one was being handed out from the Immigrant Legal Resource Center, which sort of has two, I would say, cardinal sins against it.
00:03:04.540And you see this with a lot of these left-wing nonprofits, particularly involved in the border space.
00:03:09.020One is that it's a partner of ActBlue, which means that they use them for their fundraising.
00:03:12.960Again, that's the official fundraiser of the Democratic Party that's also been embroiled in scandals, not just of the fake contributions, right, the smurfing, but also taking foreign donations in through gift cards or other sort of nefarious motives.
00:03:26.080But in this case, this one group, which if you could read that pamphlet, it advises illegal aliens, in some cases criminal illegal aliens, how to avoid deportation, saying that they don't need to open the door to ICE.
00:03:40.800But since 2018, annually, the Chan Zuckerberg Initiative, so not even Forward U.S., that's their other open borders advocacy group, the actual Chan Zuckerberg Initiative, the same group notorious for influencing, if not outright stealing the 2020 election for Democrats, they've been funding hundreds of thousands of dollars to groups that are now actively opposing Trump.
00:04:01.000People may recall, Steve, the story that we broke that was, you know, so toxic to the Zuckerberg newfound MAGA brand that he actually put out a whole story, a puff piece in the New York Times, attacking me by name, attacking this show.
00:04:13.260And this group is just one of dozens of these far left groups that not just are involved in the border space, but are actively opposing President Trump, lawfare, judicial nominees, protests, you name it.
00:04:26.000Natalie, let's get this out, and Grace and Mo, let's push it out on all the platforms.
00:05:34.120It doesn't influence my coverage, as you can probably tell from what I've been saying.
00:05:37.940But I wanted to go because I wanted to see what his pitch to a lot of journalists and influencers was going to be.
00:05:43.900And his theory of the case was that the United States deep state is, you know, one-tenth of the Israeli deep state and that he's a bigger enemy of the deep state.
00:05:53.880And that the reason why the United States should go after Iran is because they can hit us, too.
00:05:59.420And I'm happy to report that I would say 90 percent of the people in that room, it was under Chatham House rule, so I'm not going to dox anyone.
00:06:07.380But I'm sure you can probably envision from the discussion you had this morning the people associated with a certain outlet probably being the 10 percent detractors.
00:06:17.020But 90 percent of the people in that room did not buy it, knew that their audiences were not going to buy it.
00:06:22.800And by the way, Steve, I know you always mention the live chat, but that's because how many shows can you watch where you're actually going to hear this discussion?
00:06:30.400Not even saying that we're actually right, just putting these opinions out there, and I think it goes back to where we started this discussion.
00:06:37.040How often have you heard now the new idea that the reason why this sort of MAGA right is so misinformed on the Israel, Palestine, or Gaza issue is because of our information sourcing or foreign influence campaigns?
00:06:50.060I, again, think that's insulting to our intelligence.
00:06:53.680We're probably better informed than most people.
00:06:56.000And it's just a different set of values.
00:06:58.940And like I said, this is a chance to kinetically codify what President Trump has done with NATO and burden-sharing.
00:07:05.280And just like the same people who say democracy dies in darkness now want to tell us who our enemies are, democracy will die if we invade Tehran or do anything in that.
00:07:13.840Because the number one tenet of the MAGA movement, why I got involved, why all of us did, no more forever wars.
00:07:40.820John, you're known as someone that really understands statistics, how to present them, how to think them through.
00:07:47.420Talk to me about this piece about with the drop, with deportations increasing, crime rates are dropping.
00:07:55.380I actually thought the illegal alien invaders that were here are the most peaceful people in the country and actually making us a kinder and gentler nation, sir.
00:08:02.980Well, I mean, often when people talk about immigration and crime, they're lumping together both legal and illegal immigrants.
00:08:12.780Legal immigrants actually commit crime at very low rates, but illegal immigrants commit crime at very high rates.
00:08:20.300And when you mix those two together, you kind of obscure those very significant differences that are there.
00:08:26.420Look, even the Biden administration last year came out with a report from the deputy director for ICE saying that of the so-called non-detained individuals, about 7.4 million of them, 9 percent or 662,000 had criminal records.
00:08:45.580And that's probably an underestimate for many reasons, primarily because these were individuals who overwhelmingly voluntarily turned themselves in at the border.
00:08:56.020They're not the ones that you should be most concerned about.
00:08:59.040There are other issues about the fact that a number of countries were not providing information to the Biden administration on the criminal backgrounds for their citizens.
00:09:09.460Venezuela, for example, would be one country, but there are a number of others that were there, too.
00:09:14.040So we had a large number of individuals who were released who we had no idea, no way of checking what their criminal backgrounds were.
00:09:23.520But we've cashed Patel just came out a week ago and said that we are on track right now for having the lowest murder rate ever historically in the United States.
00:09:36.200Part of that is simply because we're taking law enforcement more seriously.
00:09:40.680We've gone and moved FBI agents out of the Washington, D.C. area.
00:09:52.940We're making it so that the problems that the Biden administration was causing for local police departments around the country in terms of pushing DEI for hiring and promotions inside the department rather than getting people who could do the best job in those areas.
00:10:11.860Those things matter and make a difference in crime.
00:10:15.780But the other thing that matters is the deportations.
00:10:20.400One is, obviously, they've been concentrating on removing criminal illegal aliens.
00:10:26.800But also, even the criminals that you're not catching yet, they have an incentive to keep their heads down because they worry that if they get caught committing a crime, then they'll be deported.
00:10:41.740And so one way to avoid that is simply to try to be quiet for some period of time and not draw attention to themselves that could be more likely to be arrested if they go and commit a crime now as opposed to a crime that maybe they committed a year ago.
00:11:23.820Let's get this pushed out, Moe and Grace.
00:11:25.520Thank you, John, for changing our schedule around and joining us.
00:11:27.740Brother Cortez, I've got some news to report, has not come out yet, not totally official, but I don't think I'm jumping too far ahead of this.
00:11:42.000I believe, Cortez, that DHS is going to reverse today the off-limits on farm and hotel guidance that they put out last week.
00:12:29.820Listen, the American people, you're right, intuitively understand they may not be math geniuses like John Lott is, and he is a statistical genius.
00:12:36.500They may not have all his skills, but they grasp intuitively what he has found through the data.
00:12:41.320And, by the way, thank you for highlighting John Lott.
00:12:44.260I mentioned him by name in my most recent documentary on deportations, because he does disprove that media myth that illegal migrants somehow don't commit crimes at a higher rate than American citizens.
00:12:55.280They actually do commit crimes at a very high rate, and he proves it with the numbers.
00:12:58.740But regarding this new polling just out, and this polling I started taking last Monday, so right after the weekend of violence in, so one week ago, after the weekend of violence in Los Angeles, all of the unrest, all of the anti-ice, anti-police violence, the Newsom-Trump confrontation had commenced.
00:13:17.720We were taking this polling, taking the temperature of the country in the midst of that.
00:13:21.580And what we find, thankfully, Steve, is that the resolve of the American people to fight illegal migration and to insist on deportations, that resolve has only hardened, it has only steeled because of the antics of these radicals.
00:13:36.020And let me give you the exact numbers.
00:13:37.620By nearly two to one margin right now, Americans, 60 to 32 percent, support mass deportations.
00:13:44.520And, Steve, I quite purposefully in the polling used that phrase, because that's not necessarily a kind phrase, right, mass deportations.
00:13:51.180But I used that phrase, 60 to 32 overall national poll Americans in favor of mass deportations.
00:13:58.800If we look into some of the subgroups among Catholics, this is very important, because Catholics decided the national election.
00:14:05.920The reason that Donald Trump won the national popular vote is because of how much better he did among Catholics versus 2020 among Catholics.
00:14:18.260Clearly do not agree with the U.S. Catholic hierarchy here in the United States that is pro-open borders.
00:14:24.000Among senior citizens, 65 percent of seniors support mass deportations.
00:14:29.440Now, when we add a criminal element in here, when I asked this question and said those who have either engaged in violence as part of the riots, such as in Los Angeles,
00:14:37.940or those who are interfering with lawful deportation operations of the federal government.
00:15:05.140And again, Donald Trump won Hispanic men nationally in the popular vote.
00:15:08.840Among Hispanics, 64 percent say yes to law and order prosecute those who use violence in the streets in demonstrations and those who interfere with ICE and other law enforcement in their legal, lawful, legitimate deportation operation.
00:15:25.420So what you're telling me, Steve, thankfully, is that – and look, Donald Trump often does this.
00:15:29.860He often sort of floats ideas out there, right, and sees what kind of feedback he gets.
00:15:36.020And his base on this and his base plus, right, there's a super majority in favor of this, supports a restrictionist and law and order view on immigration.
00:15:46.900And by the way, to put this poll in context too, Steve, just so that the audience knows that I'm not cherry-picking here, okay, I didn't push poll and select some super MAGA group.
00:15:55.920The overall approval for Donald Trump in this poll is minus 7 percent.
00:16:00.220So I got 43 percent approved, 50 percent disapproved, which is relatively consistent with most national polling right now.
00:16:07.140So this is not a MAGA universe that I was polling.
00:16:10.480Yet even though I got 43 percent approval, I get in the 60s and in the upper 60s for law and order, for deportations, and for immigration restrictionism.
00:16:20.940There's an overwhelming super majority here.
00:16:31.940So 43-50, but on his signature issue and the most controversial, because the most controversial part now is not sealing the border or stopping people coming across.
00:16:43.360It's the mass deportations, and you use that word.
00:16:46.200You have a poll that has him upside down, 43-50 on approval, yet on his signature issue, on the most controversial piece of it, these numbers are at 64 and 65 percent.
00:17:29.660But among the masses of the American people, is it controversial to say that we as a people have a sovereign right to decide who enters this country and how they enter?
00:17:38.100What are the procedures for entering here legally?
00:17:40.540And if you are violent in the streets and if you interfere with the police, if you endanger police who are engaged in the sometimes dangerous procedure of removing bad guys who don't belong in this country, should you be prosecuted?
00:17:51.860According to my polling, none of that is controversial.
00:17:56.960There's a healthy number of people in this country who don't consider themselves MAGA, who don't consider themselves Trump supporters, yet completely support the Trump America first immigration agenda, law and order agenda.
00:18:11.360I want to go through three sets of tweets.
00:18:14.040They had the issue, and this, I think, talks about how President Trump relates to his base and listens to his base audience.
00:18:21.340They had this controversial thing about we're not going to go.
00:18:25.060Some people are getting due, and we're not going to do agriculture anymore.
00:18:28.680We're not going to do hotels, restaurants, et cetera.
00:18:30.980After that, he came out hours later with, I just want to reinforce, there are 20 million illegal alien invaders in this country, and they're all getting deported.
00:18:44.360Number two, he then came out and said this thing today that he's got, well, the hint that it's going with that in no circumstances is he going to stop that.
00:18:57.060The DHS is about to give guidance on that.
00:19:02.820President Trump, I think, heard right away that this was not playing with the base, that when they say mass deportations, that's what they bought into.
00:19:10.980He listened to that, and that's why you've seen this reversal?
00:19:15.640Also, Steve, I think this is important, and, of course, his detractors would never admit this, but President Trump is a magnanimous leader.
00:19:23.280I mean, he is, right, and he feels for people who are here illegally.
00:19:27.740If this were up to just Cortez and Bannon, right, all of them would be on their way out immediately, right now, no questions asked, right?
00:19:33.800President Trump is a bit more judicious, perhaps, than I would be, than you would be.
00:19:37.760And so he thinks about these things very deeply and considers literally both sides of the issue.
00:19:42.320But he is now realizing, I think, smartly, correctly, and gauging where the people are in mass, not just where Cortez and Bannon are, but where are the American people, that we've had enough of illegal migration.
00:19:54.460We cannot handle this level of illegality.
00:20:01.820And the polling proves that the more that the left doubles down and triples down on this issue, the more it benefits America first, the more it benefits Donald Trump.
00:20:11.280And so he should double and triple down on the other side of law enforcement, of only tolerating legal, orderly immigration into this country, and insisting that those who came here illegally must leave, prioritizing, of course, the most dangerous people first.
00:20:26.680And we've seen, as John Lott has proven with his numbers, we've seen some of the benefits of that already.
00:20:31.320We're going to see a lot more benefits going forward.
00:20:34.040But once we have expelled the most dangerous people, we have to get to all of the illegals.
00:20:39.520And here's the thing, too, though, Steve, New York Post reported on this today.
00:20:42.860What we're already seeing is a massive amount of self-deportation.
00:20:46.420And that's the best kind, of course, when we don't have to go grab you because it's expensive and it puts American officers at risk.
00:20:52.020But self-deportation, by making it difficult to stay, by saying we're going to make it difficult if you're illegal to have a job, we're going to tax your remittances back to your home country, there's going to be financial deportation that Secretary Scott Besson has talked about.
00:21:04.260Let's make life more difficult for the illegals and better for American citizens.
00:21:09.240And part of what we're going to see, we need to do forced deportations, of course.
00:22:06.740And I'm so glad you mentioned that, by the way, because I put up a post on my social media, folks can find it, where NBC engaged in sort of a self-own about that very story in Nebraska.
00:22:15.840Because you can tell just by the tone, the way in which it was written, that NBC thought it was revealing something scandalous when it said, oh, my gosh, there's the waiting room.
00:22:24.980The lobby of the company is full of people applying for jobs.
00:22:28.020Well, no kidding, these are American citizens.
00:22:30.760And they even said, by the way, many of them Spanish-speaking, but American citizens, okay, bad hombres, American Hispanics, who, guess what, want those jobs because they are American citizens.
00:22:42.320And they will take those jobs once the illegals have been punted from them and probably be paid better than the illegals were and be treated better than the illegals were.
00:22:50.940So that's a massive win for the United States.
00:22:53.360And, Steve, if I can mention just one other thing quickly from my polling, because I think this is important, and I'm going to write an op-ed on this.
00:22:58.520And it's unrelated, but I think related in a way, because it's about American sovereignty.
00:23:02.700Another issue that I asked about is the United States disengaging from Ukraine.
00:23:07.120And I asked if the – I gave the predicate statement in the poll.
00:23:11.020I said Donald Trump has brought the Russians and Ukrainians together.
00:23:13.700That alone is an achievement, right, getting them to talk together.
00:23:16.520I then said if they do not achieve peace, if those two parties can't achieve peace, should the United States start to disengage?
00:23:23.680And the reason I think it's related to the border is that the border we care about is our own, not the eastern border of Ukraine.
00:23:30.180When I asked if we should disengage – very similar numbers to immigration, by the way – 62 percent said yes, disengage, 62 to 34.
00:23:39.080Among young Americans, those who might be sent to fight if we continue to escalate that war.
00:23:43.720Among young Americans, 69 percent, 69 to 19, said disengage.
00:23:49.240Among parents with children at home, parents with children at home, 72 percent said disengage, 72 to 17.
00:23:59.280I'm guessing, Steve, a lot of those parents, those 72 percent of parents who say we should disengage, I'm guessing a lot of them, like me, have a young man at home.
00:24:07.880I have an 18-year-old son, all right, and I will be damned if the globalists in Washington, D.C. and Kiev are going to send young American sons, including my own, to go and die in a foreign war.
00:24:20.320It is not going to happen, a needless, senseless foreign war.
00:24:24.940I think my polling reflects my thinking on this issue and, frankly, my emotion on this issue.
00:24:30.500I think there's a lot of people who think and believe and emote similarly to me, and I think that's also related to immigration.
00:24:45.440You talk about the Middle East, and we talk about a priority of getting back to these multiple raids, which President Trump also said in a tweet that he's going to have multiple raids, three times more into the central cities.
00:24:57.300This was the big deal he's making over the weekend.
00:25:12.220You know, my thought is that, listen, no foreign leader, even a friendly one, and obviously Israel is a friend, but even a friendly foreign leader should not lecture to the American people about what is in our U.S. national interest.
00:25:25.080We, as populist nationalists in the United States, will determine what is in our national interest.
00:25:31.440Bibi Netanyahu does not have a great track record, by the way.
00:25:33.920I would also point out on these issues, and for people who might not have been paying attention for a long time, way back, 20-plus years ago, he was one of the chief proponents of the United States getting involved in the disastrous Iraq War.
00:25:46.020He was hat in glove, hat in hand, excuse me, hand in glove with Colin Powell, with George W. Bush, instigating and promoting the disastrous invasion of Iraq.
00:25:59.140He's wrong about America getting involved now.
00:26:01.360We wish all the best to our Israeli friends and allies in their mission, and they will determine what they need to get done regarding Iran.
00:26:08.660They've had stunning success so far, but this is not our American fight.
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00:30:09.600Jim predicted Trump's Electoral College victory exactly 312 to 226, down to the actual number itself.
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00:35:40.540Well, we depicted where we think we are headed in AI 2027, which is the scenarios that you just talked about.
00:35:47.920It has two different possible endings, which were our best guesses at how things are going to go.
00:35:54.600In the clip that you just played, that guy was talking about how the people creating this technology think that it could become superhuman and possibly wipe out humanity.
00:36:05.100Yeah, this is kind of a newsflash for most of the world, but that is actually true.
00:36:09.520The people creating this technology have been concerned for many years that this could happen, and many of the people are still quite concerned that this will happen.
00:36:19.900Well, right now, the race dynamics are in charge.
00:36:21.800So, each CEO is telling themselves and the people around them that if they don't build it, somebody else will build it anyway.
00:36:32.340And so, everybody wants to be the first to build it because they trust themselves to handle the resulting problems responsibly more than they trust their rival CEOs, and also more than they trust China, of course.
00:36:46.120Because a big part of the dynamic here is that many of these companies are rightly pointing out that we don't want China to build superintelligence before we do.
00:36:56.080And so, there's this crazy arms race happening right now between several different United States AI companies and also between Chinese companies to be the first to build superintelligence.
00:37:09.260If I could go on a little tangent there, superintelligence, it means an AI system that is significantly better than the best humans at everything.
00:37:17.560Not just at a particular thing, like biomedical research or something, but across the board.
00:37:23.020These companies are trying to make superintelligence.
00:37:27.520You can go read about it on their websites and in the statements of the CEOs.
00:37:31.300And they think that they might succeed before this decade is out.
00:37:37.220We at the Futures Project think the future is uncertain, but we also think that there's a good chance that they will actually succeed in building superintelligence.
00:37:57.880In answering, do we have structures, processes, institutions, customs, traditions, mores, anything you want to say that is preparing the human race for actual the reality or materiality of superintelligence right now?
00:38:16.820You're saying your thing is AI 2027, but it could be within this decade.
00:38:22.680So let's say five years, three to five years.
00:38:24.620Is there any aspect in human race, is there any aspect in human institutions, customs, traditions, law, regulations, anything that is preparing the human species to live with that material fact, sir?
00:38:39.600Well, I mean, you're a Futures Project.
00:38:46.860And I know when you're making these warnings.
00:38:49.500Is it that the money people think they can make and the power that they're going to have this arms race?
00:38:56.200And I'm not even talking about the arms race with the Chinese because a lot of times people throw the CCP up as a – remember, we're the leaders of the anti-CCP movement.
00:39:03.860But sometimes they hold them up as a specter to get something else done in just the race of the four horsemen of the apocalypse here in this country.
00:39:13.380Is there anybody that's sitting there and saying we have to put at least some sort of basic structure around this before we get there?
00:39:21.340Because once we get there, you can't put the horse back in the barn.
00:39:47.660Daniel, there's a film out called Mountainhead, which I recommend everybody see.
00:39:51.840I don't know if you've seen it or not.
00:39:52.900But one of the – and I don't want to reveal too much, but one of the key inflection points is when these billionaire technologists, tech bros, decide who's an accelerationist and who's a decelerationist.
00:40:06.180And the decelerationists are looked at as almost lepers.
00:40:10.000Do you consider yourself and other people that are looking at the future of this decelerationist?
00:40:46.000In 2023, there was this big statement signed by hundreds of AI experts and researchers, including some of the CEOs of AI companies, saying basically that it is possible that AI could drive humanity extinct and that this is a serious problem.
00:41:02.320So it's called the CAIS statement, C-A-I-S.
00:41:08.300How could AI drive humanity extinct, right?
00:41:12.620Well, the answer is because it's going to continue to get smarter and smarter.
00:41:16.720And it's not just something that could happen.
00:41:19.620It's something that the companies are trying to make happen.
00:41:21.560They are trying to make superintelligence.
00:41:23.920They're trying to make AI that is better than humans in every way and can autonomously do all the AI research to design the next generation AI systems, can autonomously figure out how to integrate itself into society and give advice to political leaders and possibly run parts of the military and so forth.
00:41:41.860This is actually what the companies are building towards, and they acknowledge this.
00:41:47.820You can go talk to the employees that are working there.
00:41:52.160If they succeed in building superintelligence and deploying it throughout the economy and so forth, that raises the question of who controls all of the AIs, right?
00:42:04.260Now, that question could have a couple different answers.
00:42:08.400One possible answer is nobody controls them.
00:42:12.060They were basically playing along and doing what they were told for similar reasons to why humans often play along and do what they're told because they don't have much of a choice.
00:42:23.180But once they're in control of everything, then they go off and do something else that's more what they wanted and not what we wanted.
00:42:29.840That's the sort of loss of control scenario that so many people are warning about.
00:42:34.260And, you know, a lot of technical progress needs to be made in order to come up with better techniques to steer and control or, in other words, align.
00:42:49.540Hang on one second before we get the other risk.
00:42:52.160Are people putting the resources, the time of the best people on trying to work on these controls?
00:42:58.440Or is all the best minds going and accelerating to get to artificial general intelligence?
00:43:03.800In other words, is any talent, real talent going into the controls aspect?
00:43:08.940I would say the best people are actually working on the controls thing.
00:43:11.980However, they're just under-resourced and there aren't that many of them.
00:43:15.320So when I was at OpenAI, there were maybe something like 30 people on the super alignment team, which was the team that OpenAI had created for the express purpose of figuring out how to align or control super intelligence.
00:43:29.420And you can read about it on the website.
00:43:31.320They were thinking, we need to have this problem solved by 2027 or so.
00:43:58.560So these companies do have teams of people who are thinking about this problem and they're very smart people, but they aren't exactly the company's priority.
00:44:08.000Almost all of the computing resources that the company has, and this is true of all of the companies, is going towards winning the race, making AIs smarter as fast as possible so that they can then put the AIs in charge of accelerating the research so that they can go even faster.
00:44:23.800Also, crucially, a lot of the techniques that you might use to control AIs or to align AIs might have drawbacks, right?
00:44:35.000It might make the machine more expensive, for example, or it might make it slower in various ways.
00:44:41.920And currently, the companies are not very willing to take those tradeoffs, right, because they're locked into this race with each other.
00:45:05.520And, you know, some people think this is what's going to happen.
00:45:07.500And I think OpenAI's official position, now that the super alignment team is dissolved, is that we're sort of going to learn by doing and figure out this stuff as we go.
00:45:14.500And that by making products and, you know, selling them to the world like ChatGPT, we'll learn from the ways in which the products fail and the misbehaviors that our AIs get up to.
00:45:25.200And we'll sort of, like, learn on the go how to make the AIs, you know, have the goals and values that we want them to have.
00:45:34.500And suppose we end up with AIs that are perfectly steerable, controllable, AIs who only have the goals that we want them to have and, you know, don't interpret them in any different ways or whatever.
00:45:48.160Then there's the question of, well, who gets to choose the goals, right?
00:45:55.640That's the concentration of power issue.
00:45:57.900And I think the default answer is, well, a tech company.
00:46:01.100Whichever tech company was, you know, winning the race and was able to get their AIs smart enough to do the AI research first, then does a lot of AI research really fast and ends up with this commanding lead over all the other tech companies where they have the best AIs by far that are also, you know, super intelligent, better than humans at everything, including politics, including warfare, including, you know, propaganda, etc.
00:46:23.400If they're in control of that, then that could potentially put one tech company and possibly even just one man in the tech company, such as the CEO, in a position to effectively take over the world.
00:46:37.900If you want to know what that looks like, well, again, you can read the scenarios that we wrote.
00:46:43.380That's sort of what happens in the slowdown ending.
00:46:46.500So we have AI 2027 has two different endings.
00:46:49.040You know, one ending depicts something like the loss of control.
00:46:52.540It's what we actually expect is most likely to happen because we don't expect the companies to slow down and invest in the technical alignment stuff.
00:47:01.120But then there's also the slowdown ending where where the leading company slows down for a couple months so that they can sort out the technical issues and they succeed.
00:47:11.240You know, in our scenario, they succeed at least in fixing those technical issues.
00:47:14.440And so they end up with perfectly obedient AIs that they can just give whatever values and goals they want to those AIs.
00:47:23.620And then it ends up in a sort of oligarchy where after they've deployed into the economy, built all sorts of new robot factories, you know, integrated into the military to help beat China, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
00:47:36.800There's a situation where basically the whole economy, basically the whole structure of society, the heart, the heart power, at least, is it doesn't flow from the barrel of a gun anymore, so to speak.
00:47:48.400It flows from whoever controls all the AIs, and that's a tiny group of people at the top of the hierarchy.
00:47:56.200Hold it. That's my upside scenario. Give me my – there were control of a olig. That's my upside.
00:48:02.080Give me the race scenario, the downside.
00:48:06.380Yeah. So the race scenario is like the upside scenario, except that after the AIs get smart enough,
00:48:12.760they basically play along and pretend to be aligned instead of actually being aligned.
00:51:51.480Joe Allen, thank you very much for setting this up.
00:51:53.160We're going to be back tomorrow morning at 10 a.m. Eastern Daylight Time.
00:51:57.680And if anything breaks tonight, the president just put out a true social that's quite disturbing said evacuate Tehran.
00:52:03.500And if we have to, we'll get back up with grace and moat later in the evening.
00:52:08.360Until then, this has been The War Room.
00:52:10.460We'll see you tomorrow morning at 10 a.m. Eastern Daylight Time.
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