Bannon's War Room - September 02, 2025


WarRoom Battleground EP 841： Auron MacIntyre - Confronting the Total State


Episode Stats


Length

53 minutes

Words per minute

173.9299

Word count

9,270

Sentence count

570

Harmful content

Misogyny

1

sentences flagged

Hate speech

5

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Aaron McIntyre is the host of the Aaron McIntyre show on The Blaze and a frequent contributor at The Daily Caller. He s also the author of The Total State: How Liberal Democracies Become Tyrannies, a book that explains how the Constitution failed us.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.000 This is the primal scream of a dying regime.
00:00:07.000 Pray for our enemies, because we're going medieval on these people.
00:00:12.000 I got a free shot at all these networks lying about the people.
00:00:17.000 The people have had a belly full of it.
00:00:19.000 I know you don't like hearing that.
00:00:20.000 I know you try to do everything in the world to stop that,
00:00:22.000 but you're not going to stop it. It's going to happen.
00:00:24.000 And where do people like that go to share the big lie?
00:00:27.000 MAGA Media.
00:00:29.000 I wish in my soul, I wish that any of these people had a conscience.
00:00:34.000 Ask yourself, what is my task and what is my purpose?
00:00:38.000 If that answer is to save my country, this country will be saved.
00:00:44.000 War Room. Here's your host, Stephen K. Bannon.
00:00:54.000 Good evening. I'm Joe Allen sitting in for Stephen K. Bannon.
00:00:58.000 Here at the War Room, we discuss politics a lot.
00:01:01.000 You won't hear me weighing in very often, but this is a political show.
00:01:07.000 One of the things that sets the War Room apart for many of our colleagues in the media is a very heterodox approach to politics.
00:01:17.000 So you won't hear a whole lot of normie con rah rah rah cheering for capitalism, at least not in its rawest form.
00:01:26.000 Nor will you hear anyone besmirching the working class as being impediments in the in the to the accumulation of capital.
00:01:38.000 I think that that heterodox approach, the ability to hold multiple and sometimes contradictory ideas in tension and try to arrive at truth by way of that process is essential for anything like a valid political movement in the 21st century.
00:01:59.000 Here to talk to me about politics from a very learned and heterodox position is Aaron McIntyre.
00:02:07.000 Many of you are already familiar with him.
00:02:09.000 He's the author of The Total State, How Liberal Democracies Become Tyrannies.
00:02:15.000 He's the host of the Aaron McIntyre Show, a frequent contributor at The Blaze, fantastic writer, amazing thinker and a pretty good guy.
00:02:26.000 Aaron, welcome.
00:02:27.000 Thank you very much for being here.
00:02:28.000 Thanks for having me on.
00:02:30.000 So I would like to begin by talking about The Total State.
00:02:34.000 Fantastic book, a lot of different ideas and different thinkers woven into a single piece to charge into the problems we have now in the 21st century with the managerial state and various other sorts of impediments to freedom.
00:02:53.000 Can you tell the audience a bit about the thesis of The Total State and how you arrived at it?
00:02:58.000 Sure. I think like a lot of people, I was just a very normal conservative listening to guys like Dennis Prager or Sean Hannity or these kind of guys on the radio.
00:03:09.000 I knew that the Constitution and the Bill of Rights were going to keep the government in check.
00:03:13.000 We had the branches of government, all the things that we expect to hear from your average civics lesson.
00:03:19.000 And then COVID hit and everything went insane.
00:03:22.000 The churches were closed. Strip clubs were open.
00:03:25.000 You couldn't go see a family member, you know, go to their funeral or see them in the hospital.
00:03:30.000 But you could go riot in the streets if you were a Democrat.
00:03:33.000 And it just became very clear as I looked around at all these conservatives who had told me my whole life, well, this is what the Second Amendment's for.
00:03:39.000 And this is how we're going to protect our rights.
00:03:41.000 And of course, the government will never overreach this stuff.
00:03:43.000 And just nobody was doing anything.
00:03:45.000 And that just sent me down this rabbit hole because I had to understand what was going on.
00:03:50.000 I had gone to school for politics.
00:03:52.000 I've always been interested in political theory.
00:03:53.000 I'd even taught high school history and civics and these kind of things.
00:03:57.000 I had reported on politics as a local reporter.
00:03:59.000 I thought I understood this.
00:04:01.000 I understood how this worked.
00:04:02.000 And it actually turns out I didn't understand anything about it.
00:04:05.000 And so that's really what the book is.
00:04:07.000 It's my journey to kind of understand why the Constitution didn't stop what happened during COVID.
00:04:13.000 Did we fail the Constitution?
00:04:14.000 Did it fail us?
00:04:15.000 Is there another explanation?
00:04:17.000 And as I went down this road reading a lot of thinkers that I had never heard of when I was studying political theory in college,
00:04:24.000 I started to discover there is actually a very robust right wing understanding of political theory that explained a managerial revolution that had taken over our politics,
00:04:34.000 that had taken away the type of democratic republic that we thought we operated under,
00:04:39.000 and had created an entirely new political system that was operating right under the surface of what we were supposed to be doing.
00:04:46.000 And so my hope is that ultimately the book helped people understand why that happened and how ultimately we could fix it.
00:04:53.000 I'd like to get into the philosophy and writings of James Burnham first and then move on maybe to Curtis Yarvin and Nick Land.
00:05:04.000 But before we do that, your time as a teacher, how did that inform what you're doing now?
00:05:11.000 Because I think your style on your show and your presentation in writing is both very complicated but also very accessible.
00:05:19.000 You're a very good teacher.
00:05:20.000 And I'm just curious, do you see what you're doing now as a continuation of that process?
00:05:26.000 Yeah, in a lot of ways, it's kind of getting to teach the classes I always wanted to and talk about the things I always wanted to.
00:05:31.000 But that is, you're right, that's the through line.
00:05:33.000 Whether I was writing as a local journalist, whether I was a teacher or what I'm doing now,
00:05:39.000 it's always been about kind of trying to understand something more complex and explain it in a way that people can ultimately understand.
00:05:45.000 And so I hope that's what comes through when I'm doing it in the show because, yeah, I am still using many of the methods that I would have used to try to pull in all of this information,
00:05:54.000 condense it down into something that is usable, and then give practical examples that people can kind of take into their lives, hopefully.
00:06:01.000 James Burnham, The Managerial Revolution.
00:06:05.000 There's probably a number of people in the audience who aren't familiar with that work, probably a lot who are.
00:06:11.000 My first introduction was through the late Christopher Zeman, the Z-Man, God rest his soul. 0.98
00:06:19.000 And your work has fleshed that out a lot.
00:06:22.000 Can you explain to the posse what James Burnham's central thesis was in the managerial revolution and how that informed your way of thinking about politics in America?
00:06:34.000 So James Burnham is a really interesting figure because he's a former Trotskyite.
00:06:38.000 He's a passionate communist.
00:06:40.000 He's trying to understand the different ins and outs of politics and how they work.
00:06:45.000 He falls out of love with communism and famously becomes a very arch conservative.
00:06:50.000 He joins guys like William F. Buckley and starting the National Review.
00:06:54.000 Somehow his work has fallen out of favor with much of the conservative movement, even though he was really there in the founding of the new generation.
00:07:01.000 But in his transition between his prior communist leanings and his conservative politics, one thing he kept an eye on was the way power worked.
00:07:11.000 Specifically, he drew on a set of political theorists known as the Italian elite theorists.
00:07:15.000 And really what he focused on was the interest, the separation of interest between the managerial elite and politics as we understand it.
00:07:24.000 He recognized that whether it was under fascism or communism or liberal democracy, all major countries had to post-industrial revolution, centralize control of power.
00:07:36.000 FDR is doing in some ways the same thing as Stalin is doing.
00:07:39.000 In fact, sometimes they actually admire each other in the way that they're doing it.
00:07:43.000 And so the American way, I think, is ultimately better. 0.86
00:07:46.000 I'd certainly rather live under it.
00:07:47.000 But he recognized that they were creating an entire class of people who had a new skill set, which was operating these large bureaucratic institutions.
00:07:55.000 And because more and more of our society was scaling up, we were moving more and more of our investment in social structures into large bureaucratic institutions.
00:08:04.000 And today we can't really think of much that isn't run by large bureaucratic institutions.
00:08:08.000 Of course, government and business.
00:08:10.000 But we can think of things like churches that traditionally would have nothing to do with this structure.
00:08:14.000 Now we hear, oh, well, we want to run this more like a business.
00:08:17.000 Our pastors sound more like TED Talk CEOs than they do people preaching God's word.
00:08:22.000 And we just see this across every domain of society.
00:08:25.000 And so because this has become our major organizing principle, the way that the managerial elite think, the way that they organize our society, the beliefs that they have about humanity, their anthropology, they all carry over into our daily lives in the way that we do things.
00:08:42.000 They also handle the way that we, you know, they manage the way that we understand our government and the way that it operates.
00:08:48.000 And so by better understanding what the managers are and what their incentives are and how they work through these bureaucratic institutions, it helps us to understand what has happened to our politics.
00:08:58.000 Because Republican democracy cannot work in the same way that large bureaucratic institutions have to operate.
00:09:05.000 These are two systems that are completely incompatible with each other.
00:09:08.000 And so as long as we're ordering our society along this managerial axis, there's no way that we can follow the Constitution.
00:09:14.000 So what we've done is create an entirely alternative way to operate our government whilst pretending that we're operating under the auspices of the original United States Constitution.
00:09:23.000 When you say that they're incompatible democracy or constitutional republic, perhaps Republican democracy and the managerial organization of society, do you mean then that the managerial organization is always going to be top down kind of technocratic experts at the top dictating and not responsive to the grassroots?
00:09:45.000 Or do you mean something else? That's what I take from it. But yeah, so the key with the managers is they need everything to basically fit into place, right?
00:09:53.000 The efficiency, think of something like an assembly line, right?
00:09:57.000 The efficiency you generate off the assembly line comes from the fact that people aren't making decisions, that they don't have agency.
00:10:04.000 The efficiency of the assembly line is that you turn the humans into machines.
00:10:08.000 They each perform a very specific task the right way every time.
00:10:11.000 There's no outlier. They don't get to make, you know, they don't have any agency on that.
00:10:16.000 It's all about following managerial procedures.
00:10:19.000 That's a very mechanical way to think about human organization.
00:10:22.000 And what they did is they took that assembly line understanding and they applied it to everything.
00:10:26.000 This is why when you call into a service center, you get a bunch of people who are technically humans, but they're all reading off scripts.
00:10:35.000 They're all running down specific answers.
00:10:37.000 You can't get anyone who can actually go and fix a particular problem because nobody has authority.
00:10:42.000 They're all relying on this managerial apparatus because that's what you have to do to scale up the operation.
00:10:47.000 If you're just answering 10 questions, you can get really good questions answered.
00:10:51.000 But when you have to answer thousands and millions of calls, well, actually, it turns out you can't and you have to standardize these things.
00:10:59.000 Our Republican government system was built on the idea that every citizen would have their own virtuous input into the system.
00:11:07.000 They all have their own responsibilities.
00:11:09.000 They had to prove themselves of a certain level of virtue practicing in a particular way in order to participate.
00:11:14.000 But you cannot cultivate virtue at scale.
00:11:17.000 You can't do that when you need massive organizations to operate.
00:11:20.000 And so what our elites have done is trained people to think more like machines, to operate more in the way that they would if they were sitting on an assembly line to now the point where people don't actually make decisions on who they're voting for, how the system will change.
00:11:35.000 They simply participate in a process that kind of gives legitimacy to the change the managers have already decided on.
00:11:42.000 Many people call this the deep state, and I think that's a good understanding of some of it.
00:11:47.000 That explains the permanent bureaucracy that we've seen that Donald Trump and others are trying to dig out of the system right now.
00:11:53.000 J.D. Vance will go on. Vivek Raswamy will talk about the need to dismantle these systems.
00:11:58.000 But, of course, it reaches well beyond the bureaucracies.
00:12:01.000 It also goes into our media, into our education system, our universities, our banks.
00:12:06.000 Everything is run in this way.
00:12:08.000 And so that's why I think the total state is more helpful because it's what begins in the deep state that spreads through our entire society.
00:12:14.000 Without lingering too long on the managerial approach to governance scaling, it seems that it's maybe not a necessary way to organize a society that has scaled up to the degree that our now modern society has.
00:12:31.000 But I'm curious then, it's obviously a useful way to organize very large scale institutions, nations, empires.
00:12:41.000 What are some alternatives that you see to the managerial approach to scaling?
00:12:46.000 Is it another alternative approach to scaling or is it an abandonment of scale entirely?
00:12:52.000 I think it actually has to be an abandonment of scale.
00:12:55.000 So to be clear, Byrne was not decrying the managerial revolution.
00:12:58.000 He saw this ultimately as the technocratic solution that was necessary to move things forward.
00:13:03.000 Other thinkers like Sam Francis may have lamented what the managerial revolution had done to Americans.
00:13:10.000 But once it had been done, he said, basically, this is now the only way we can organize at this point.
00:13:15.000 We have what the very difficult decision.
00:13:17.000 This is why this is the hardest thing right now.
00:13:19.000 And this is what most people miss about this.
00:13:21.000 We have to make a real decision about whether we want to operate as a republic, as an organic political entity, or if we think the scale is worth dehumanizing ourselves.
00:13:32.000 And it has to be one or the other.
00:13:34.000 I don't think there is an effective way to organize at this level without dehumanizing ourselves, without giving in to the managerial impulse.
00:13:41.000 And this is far from the only – I'm far from the only person to assert this.
00:13:45.000 Even some of the elite theorists like Gaetano Mosca talked about how civilization is always moving between the bureaucratic and the feudal.
00:13:53.000 And there's always – you're always somewhere on this continuum.
00:13:57.000 We're never staying in one state or the other.
00:14:00.000 And so we're always moving towards one of these poles and then moving back. 0.50
00:14:03.000 So there's a very natural give and take as we kind of decide as humans, oh, well, we want to centralize things.
00:14:08.000 We want to build things up.
00:14:09.000 We want to scale.
00:14:10.000 We want to gain the efficiency out of them.
00:14:12.000 Then we recognize, oh, these systems are breaking down.
00:14:14.000 They're not working anymore.
00:14:15.000 They're dehumanizing.
00:14:16.000 They're making people miserable.
00:14:17.000 And they either come apart on their own or we make a choice to scale them back down.
00:14:22.000 But either way, we can't keep existing in that state.
00:14:25.000 But then once we head back towards the decentralized, we tend to naturally pull back in.
00:14:29.000 So it is this pendulum swing back and forth constantly that we can't necessarily avoid.
00:14:34.000 So you're not an extremist, really.
00:14:36.000 You're just pushing the dial towards independent communities, perhaps churches, schools, local governments as sources of meaning and order.
00:14:48.000 Or would you like to see a radical deconstruction of the entire machine, which, you know, at least on my most fantastical days, I would actually like to see that.
00:14:59.000 Well, I think one thing we can share in common is that we're both pro-human.
00:15:02.000 What we're looking for is the is the human wins over the system.
00:15:06.000 We don't want to be run by algorithms.
00:15:08.000 We don't want to recognize AI is just the way the managers escape this problem.
00:15:13.000 Right. It's there.
00:15:14.000 They don't want the Tower of Babel to fall.
00:15:16.000 You might you might say that AI is an embodiment or a kind of distillation of the managerial state.
00:15:21.000 Exactly.
00:15:22.000 It is the ultimate solution to the managerial problem of diminishing returns on complexity.
00:15:27.000 And so that that's kind of what they're hoping is that this saves them.
00:15:30.000 But I think both of us recognize that there lies all kinds of demons.
00:15:34.000 And so ultimately, I'm pro-human.
00:15:35.000 Now, do do we need to Ted Kaczynski the situation?
00:15:38.000 No, I don't think so.
00:15:40.000 But I do think we should be, like you said, making very real and deliberate movements towards the human to making those choices that are local, that put the hand the choices in the hands of real people in organic communities.
00:15:54.000 That's not going to be easy and there will be some sacrifices.
00:15:57.000 But I think the people who do that are going to be much better off in the long run.
00:16:01.000 The people that completely embrace this system and ultimately become dehumanized by it.
00:16:06.000 You have written and talked quite a bit about Curtis Yarvin's ideas.
00:16:12.000 You've never been a Yarvin acolyte.
00:16:16.000 As far as I can tell, you've always weighed his ideas against others and have been actually quite critical of his ideas at time at times.
00:16:23.000 But in your book, you do weave his work in to the ideas behind the total state.
00:16:30.000 Can you tell me a little bit about his influence on your thinking, what you've drawn, what value you've drawn from his work?
00:16:37.000 Yeah, the real value of Curtis is he was really the only guy in the modern day who was working and in dialogue with this tradition.
00:16:46.000 This James Burnham, Sam Francis and more importantly than the Italian elite theorists that they were building on.
00:16:52.000 He was one of the few people who was really looking into that.
00:16:55.000 And so I don't agree with every assumption he draws from them.
00:16:58.000 But the fact simply that he was analyzing power in this way, understanding the mechanisms that were underlying our system, throwing away the kind of, you know, hopeful assumptions we had about holding on to exactly the same government we had back in the 1790s.
00:17:14.000 He was very good at opening these things up.
00:17:16.000 And so I think he's very valuable because he's ultimately a systems analyst.
00:17:21.000 And that means that he's very good at tracing the contours of power and laying them out.
00:17:25.000 Now, his prescriptions often, I think, leave something to be desired because he's ultimately a materialist.
00:17:30.000 And so his solutions often don't factor in the human soul and the spirituality that I think has to be part of these solutions.
00:17:38.000 But when it comes to really diagnosing the problem, he's very, very good at that.
00:17:42.000 And he's so widely read and brings in so many thinkers that have been largely excluded from the right, even though they should have been predominantly in our mind when we're thinking through this problem.
00:17:51.000 I don't see how you can exclude his work.
00:17:53.000 You don't have to agree with everything someone says to recognize that the way that they're ordering the thought in the way that they're allowing you to explore other thinkers is very valuable.
00:18:03.000 What do you make of his ideas on monarchy?
00:18:06.000 And clearly, he doesn't necessarily mean a king with all of the royal decoration and ornamentation, although that's what it brings to my mind whenever he talks about the monarch.
00:18:16.000 But he seems to mean more an abstract concept of an executive, a strong executive who cuts through the bureaucracy, who cuts through the, you know, complaints of the masses, we'll say.
00:18:28.000 What do you make of that idea? Is it elitist? Is it useful?
00:18:31.000 Well, it's all elitist. But to be clear, I'm fine with elitism in the sense that elites will always exist.
00:18:37.000 I am a populist in the sense that I would like to do what is best for the people ultimately.
00:18:42.000 But we have to recognize that the people will, for better or worse, always be led by a minority of the actual country.
00:18:49.000 The organized minority will always lead the disorganized majority.
00:18:52.000 And so that means what we want is not the elimination of elites, but a better kind of elite.
00:18:57.000 And Curtis's idea is basically that what we have is a systems problem.
00:19:01.000 And if we can just kind of organize everything under a single monarch, we'll have a much more effective way at operating the system.
00:19:08.000 Now, there's a lot of arguments that are, you know, compelling around this, right?
00:19:12.000 The fact that, as you say, it can cut through all the bureaucracy, you can cut through all the red tape, you can cut through the Gordian knot that seems to be our immovable system at the moment.
00:19:20.000 Very appealing for a lot of people.
00:19:22.000 And there's a reason that at the end of these kind of complex sclerotic oligarchies, we tend to get a strong man.
00:19:29.000 You know, Oswald Spengler called this Caesarism, where you would have a Caesar figure that would arise when the money power, the oligarchy had kind of tied up the entire society and made it impossible for it to move.
00:19:40.000 You would have this decisive figure who came in and cut through that.
00:19:44.000 And so just historically, Curtis is probably right that something like that could be down the line.
00:19:50.000 Whether we like it or not, whether we think that's great or not, this is the solution that people tend to fall back on when they end up in this scenario.
00:19:58.000 Now, ultimately, is that the way that we want to order our society?
00:20:01.000 Is that what really fits in the American tradition?
00:20:04.000 Well, you know, a constitutional monarchy is what we had in England before we came over.
00:20:09.000 And that's certainly a very different monarchy than, say, a god emperor.
00:20:12.000 A lot of people think of the king having all kinds of power.
00:20:15.000 But of course, in England, that wasn't the case.
00:20:17.000 The king was actually rather constricted compared to other monarchs in the way that he could wield power.
00:20:21.000 So would that in some ways be in line with our tradition? A little bit.
00:20:24.000 But of course, America is also defined by throwing off that king.
00:20:28.000 And so perhaps returning to a republic scaled down to the level where it can actually operate again could be an option.
00:20:35.000 But the reason Curtis doesn't like that option is it requires virtue.
00:20:39.000 It requires us not to look at the mechanics of the system, but also look at the spiritual health of the people.
00:20:45.000 And he just doesn't think that we're in a place where we can rehabilitate the spiritual health of the people.
00:20:50.000 I think that that unfortunately might be true, but I'm hoping it's not.
00:20:54.000 And I'm not giving up on the human. I'm not giving up on that possibility.
00:20:58.000 And so I respect his arguments. I think they're strong.
00:21:01.000 I think that there is a possibility we might end up in that scenario.
00:21:04.000 But we also could be in a scenario where these bureaucracies break apart with the we have more of a not so much a balkanization, but simply a perhaps a return to a far more robust federalism that exists in the United States in which we could create communities that no longer require these massive scales and therefore allow us to cultivate the virtue that is required for Republican government.
00:21:27.000 But either way, drastic change on the level of what would seem like a revolution would basically be necessary at this point.
00:21:34.000 We only have a few moments left before we go to break, but in the time we do have just to drill down on that idea, your experience of America and perhaps abroad.
00:21:44.000 Do you see that diversification that some derided as balkanization, but a kind of individuation collectively on the part of different areas of the country?
00:21:55.000 It's always been kind of the case, but it seems like the great sort has really brought it into focus so that Florida, your current abode, is quite different from California culturally.
00:22:07.000 Do you see that happening right now? And do you see that as a good thing, both politically and culturally?
00:22:11.000 Yeah, I think it's a really important thing. As you said, the great sort is happening no matter what.
00:22:15.000 That's already occurred, especially post COVID. As we saw in Florida, it went from being a purple straight state trending blue to becoming a deep red state.
00:22:24.000 And a lot of that was due to the fact that people simply did not want to live with the woke madness, didn't want to live with the COVID madness.
00:22:29.000 They knew that Florida was different and they knew by physically relocating themselves into a geographic area next to people who shared their values, they could live the kind of lives they want to live.
00:22:40.000 And this is really the lie that technology has told us that we could just live wherever we wanted and it didn't matter who our neighbor was and we didn't have to share anything because kind of this over identity of America would just solve those problems.
00:22:51.000 But what we're doing is going back to a place where we live in real, robust, organic communities.
00:22:56.000 It's still far off, but I see people building religious communities.
00:22:59.000 I still see people building intentional communities with people who share their values.
00:23:03.000 And I think that's ultimately the future of the United States.
00:23:06.000 Yeah, that tension between nationalism, which is very, very important and localism, regionalism.
00:23:13.000 It's going to be a very difficult problem that we will have the rest of our lives.
00:23:18.000 But I really appreciate your approach to this as far as putting turning that dial back to the local as opposed to the kind of blob like homogenous one state.
00:23:31.000 We'll be back after the break to talk more with Aaron McIntyre.
00:23:36.000 We will return with some more esoteric topics, perhaps Alexander Dugan, Nick Land and even a bit of transhumanism, post-humanism and post-human politics.
00:23:46.000 But before we go, you should go to birchgold.com slash Bannon.
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00:26:42.000 All right, Posse, we will be back with R.N. McIntyre on the other side of the break.
00:26:47.000 Stay tuned.
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00:29:55.200 It's because of massive energy demand from artificial intelligence data centers.
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00:30:02.740 And we have a fragile power grid.
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00:31:00.480 Hello, America's Voice family.
00:31:02.140 Are you on Getter yet?
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00:31:03.980 What are you waiting for?
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00:31:31.540 Welcome back, War Room Posse.
00:31:33.060 I am here with Aron McIntyre, author of The Total State, How Liberal Democracies Become Tyrannies.
00:31:40.420 A fantastic book.
00:31:41.420 I recommend picking it up anywhere books are sold.
00:31:45.460 Signed copies available?
00:31:47.380 No, only if you meet up with me.
00:31:49.560 Okay.
00:31:50.040 Yeah, you'll have to track him down.
00:31:51.300 He is right now at the National Conservatism Convention, NATCON.
00:31:56.460 Maybe you can find him there if you have your ticket.
00:31:59.120 Okay, Aron, I would like to return to an idea that we left off on.
00:32:04.660 Curtis Yarvin, and I would say the majority of people in politics, whether they be philosophers or politicians or lobbyists, hold to a materialist conception of the world.
00:32:18.440 Maybe not always philosophically, but in practice, their behavior in the world is based on material conditions, material analysis, and material responses.
00:32:31.440 Now, you have argued quite often and quite strenuously that the spiritual supersedes the material.
00:32:40.480 The spiritual is more important.
00:32:41.820 How do you see the spiritual, the human soul, and its relationship to God as a point of resistance in a way to understand, really, the total state?
00:32:52.940 Well, when we are living in accordance with God's purpose, when we're following our telos, we can feel it.
00:33:00.480 We can feel that we're acting in a way that makes us more human, but also connects us to the divine.
00:33:06.640 We know that there's a transcendent property to what we're doing and an ultimate value that gives us true worth.
00:33:13.700 When we're in a materialistic frame, we're just going through the motions, we're just looking to reach particular goals that have been laid out for us but are ultimately arbitrary.
00:33:23.160 Oftentimes, it feels like we're not even in control of the process as we turn over our desires to mechanisms that otherwise are simply preying on them in order to derive what a direct material benefit that we gain.
00:33:36.280 And so when our politics are oriented around what is good for people in their real lived lives as opposed to what is good for spreadsheets and maximalization of economic units, we can feel a real difference.
00:33:49.800 Thomas Carlyle used to call this the condition of England question.
00:33:52.680 We can go around and gather data.
00:33:54.540 We can become statisticians and look at different polls and different ways to measure whether people are doing well.
00:34:00.880 But that doesn't actually tell us how people's lives are being improved or being destroyed.
00:34:06.440 To do that, we actually have to understand people's way of life.
00:34:09.480 We have to see what they value and see what their interactions between spouses and children and families and business owners and communities are.
00:34:17.580 And that's really what helps us to gauge whether or not we are successful as a society.
00:34:21.500 So I think reintroducing the spiritual is critical because if we don't do that, we just live in this spreadsheet materialistic world that turns us all into interchangeable widgets.
00:34:30.840 And that doesn't make anyone happy.
00:34:32.680 I couldn't agree more on both points.
00:34:35.340 The points about the dehumanization process of becoming a cog or a data point and also the transcendent spirit, the true value that lies within ourselves and the true value that lies beyond material phenomenon.
00:34:51.500 We see God, but we run into a real problem in America and really across the modern world.
00:34:58.200 Perhaps this is a perennial problem that goes back to the caves, but there are a lot of different systems of value.
00:35:04.800 Some of them are radically different.
00:35:06.560 We've just highlighted two, right?
00:35:08.800 The spiritual perspective versus the material.
00:35:12.280 And in the spiritual perspective, you get a wide range of viewpoints and value systems.
00:35:17.820 And in the material perspective, the same.
00:35:19.500 How do we approach American society in a way that can uphold those transcendent spiritual values without trampling on or oversaturating, homogenizing the rest of the culture?
00:35:34.560 Or is it possible?
00:35:35.720 Is it desirable?
00:35:36.940 So if you look back, if anybody has ever had the opportunity to read Albion Seed, it's a David Hackett Fisher book about the founding folkways of the United States.
00:35:47.300 And he identifies that there are four main groups that are initially settling the United States.
00:35:51.680 And each one of them is, while we think of them as uniquely American, and we can identify a lot of the traits of the Quakers or, you know, the hill folk or, you know, the Puritans, we can see their legacy in the United States.
00:36:06.080 Each of them were very distinct and they were radically different from each other.
00:36:09.080 Often they had difficulty interacting with each other's way of life.
00:36:13.000 And we recognize that throughout American history, the kind of just vast country of the United States and its federalization has allowed for us to kind of have this different regional texture to our communities.
00:36:24.720 Now, after World War II, especially when we had mass communication, we have the train, we have the automobile, we have the airplane, all of a sudden our world got much smaller.
00:36:39.360 And all of a sudden the desire to impose a homogenous culture came across America.
00:36:43.480 Again, not that Americans didn't have many similarities, but now it became essential to crush out those regional differences to the point where we started sending the 82nd Airborne, you know, down to the South to make sure that they behaved the same way the North did.
00:36:56.120 Now, a lot of people may say, well, that was worth it at the time.
00:36:58.720 But recognize that ultimately this was a forced way to make people interact how you would like them to, not the way their community had done previously.
00:37:07.700 And so that's ultimately, I think the answer is we could return to a system in which we trust our localities.
00:37:14.360 We actually pretend like the 10th Amendment is in the Constitution and we allow states to operate the way they were originally supposed to, not as some subsidiary of the central government,
00:37:23.360 but as a real living community, making decisions based on the ways that the people there operate.
00:37:29.200 That way you're responding to the communities that are much smaller than this 50 state conglomeration we currently have.
00:37:35.080 Before we go into the more esoteric, just a quick note on that.
00:37:38.620 Do you think that, for instance, striking down Roe v. Wade and allowing states to decide their own policies on reproduction,
00:37:47.140 the current rise of localized and state-level AI politics and even drug laws,
00:37:54.480 do you think that this is an expression at the political level of that diversification and maybe even a way to amplify it?
00:38:00.000 It's certainly a beginning, but of course, there's a lot, lot, lot more to do.
00:38:03.360 We don't recognize, unless you've really been in the nitty-gritty of a lot of local and state politics,
00:38:08.440 how deeply dependent these different municipalities and states are on federal funding and how much that determines all of their policies.
00:38:15.920 This audience definitely is.
00:38:17.200 This audience knows more about local politics.
00:38:19.620 They've forgotten more than I've ever known.
00:38:21.620 So it's definitely a scenario where those are kind of the very beginnings of taking some of those chains off the states and the localities
00:38:29.740 and allowing to make those decisions, but it's barely even a toe into the water of where we need to be.
00:38:35.920 All right.
00:38:36.460 So liberal democracy is right there in the subtitle of your book,
00:38:40.520 and there's a subtle threat that liberal democracy leans towards tyranny.
00:38:48.580 Perhaps not always, but you've written and spoken a lot about Alexander Dugan and Curtis Yarvin,
00:38:56.140 both critics of liberal democracy as being the end-all, be-all of human social development.
00:39:03.360 Talk a little bit about that.
00:39:05.520 How did you arrive at your critique of liberal democracy, and how do these thinkers really flesh out your response to the problems of liberal democracy?
00:39:18.520 Well, a lot of people were taught that democracy just means freedom.
00:39:22.440 They're the same thing, right?
00:39:23.400 It's just a synonym for each other because democracy protects the people, the will of the people, from the tyrant.
00:39:29.240 But if you look back, obviously, or actually if you just look at where we are right now,
00:39:34.540 it's very clear that, well, democracy didn't stop the COVID lockdowns.
00:39:38.680 It didn't stop stolen elections.
00:39:40.540 It didn't stop many of these things.
00:39:42.340 And so perhaps the mechanism could have some restrictive effect on government,
00:39:47.100 but it clearly is not some kind of universal answer.
00:39:50.440 It can obviously fail.
00:39:51.720 And we want to ask, well, why is it failing?
00:39:53.620 Why is this mechanism that was set up to prevent this, why is it failing?
00:39:57.420 And what you recognize is that if you make popular sovereignty, if you make the will of the people,
00:40:02.260 the justification for rulers' power, they don't just turn over power to the people.
00:40:07.680 That's not actually how it works.
00:40:08.920 They want to retain power like any elite does.
00:40:11.120 So what do they do?
00:40:11.860 They get really good at controlling popular sovereignty, manipulating public opinion.
00:40:16.440 And one of the reasons that they lean on mass liberal democracy,
00:40:20.080 as opposed to very small scale Republican democracy,
00:40:24.040 is that Republican democracy was based on the idea that virtuous people who are very active in the community,
00:40:30.880 who have already proven themselves to be the head of households, capable of operating their own property
00:40:36.920 and caring for families and these kind of things, were willing to act in defense of the state.
00:40:41.640 These were the only people who got to make decisions because they were very much bought in.
00:40:45.860 They had to pay the cost for making the country run.
00:40:49.260 But when you spread the franchise out to any and everyone,
00:40:52.340 I mean, to the point where now Gavin Newsom's complaining that we're going to be checking for citizenship
00:40:57.320 because, well, we've got to get those illegals in there and make sure that they vote, right?
00:41:00.800 That's where we're at.
00:41:01.780 And when you have that scale of democracy, what happens is it becomes very easy to manipulate the average voter
00:41:07.080 because, well, it's not a group of people who are dedicated to defending the country and, you know, proving their virtue.
00:41:12.560 It's just anybody. Anybody with a phone or a television can suddenly become a voter.
00:41:16.900 And they get all of their news and information through the media, through education, through entertainment,
00:41:22.560 the very forces that the managerial elite control.
00:41:25.440 And so suddenly they control the liberal democracy and they are able to manipulate it however they choose.
00:41:31.500 But it's even more powerful than that because now they're speaking with the voice of the people.
00:41:36.200 A king was always strong, right? Don't get me wrong. Kings had power.
00:41:39.160 But they were still only one man. They still had to get the barons.
00:41:42.680 They had to get the lords. They had to get the other factions of society, the church, on their side.
00:41:47.860 I mean, literally a large amount of Western history is just kings trying to figure out how they could possibly defy the pope, right?
00:41:54.700 And that's where so much of our history comes from.
00:41:57.540 But when you're an organization ruling in the name of the people, well, all of a sudden, who can deny the whole people?
00:42:05.440 Who are you, one man, to deny the entire collective will of society?
00:42:10.560 And we see actually that the rise of liberal democracies coincide with expansions of government.
00:42:16.140 Actually, the more liberal democracy we've had, the bigger and more powerful governments have become.
00:42:20.720 So very paradoxically, from what we've been taught, democracy seems to actually grow and justify large government total states rather than impede them in any way.
00:42:30.820 And when you recognize this feature of democracy, this completely flips your understanding of why and how we should operate as a society.
00:42:38.640 And when you say democracy, liberal democracy, I think it's important to make the distinction between that and the constitutional republic that was the American ideal in the beginning.
00:42:48.800 As you say, something that was based on more local value systems, more on virtue than just mass appeal.
00:42:58.140 And this is something, again, that all even the ancient philosophers, you don't need to read these new edgy philosophers, Curtis Yarvin or Dugan to figure this out.
00:43:06.560 You know, we know that, you know, Aristotle told us that ultimately the democracy could become the most tyrannical of all governments.
00:43:14.940 This was recognized.
00:43:16.080 And the solution for him was a mixed government, a government much like our own that tried to bring in a little bit of monarchy with the executive, a little bit of the will of the people, ultimately with the Congress.
00:43:26.980 And then something like the judiciary to mediate between the idea that we would have these different classes in society and they would be represented in different forms of government. 0.68
00:43:36.240 Mixing that constitution together.
00:43:38.240 This is what was actually supposed to restrict our government.
00:43:41.860 But the problem is that because in America we don't really have these defined classes that existed in the old world, we kind of leveled all of these different branches of government that we're supposed to push against each other and represent real interests and spheres in society.
00:43:55.760 We kind of melted them all down into one popular sovereignty force.
00:44:00.360 And so now popular sovereignty runs basically all of our branches of government.
00:44:03.880 There's nothing differentiating against them.
00:44:06.040 And so this mass democracy has no real checks and balances in the way that our founders intended because we've melted down the distinctions inside our society that are supposed to fuel those branches, their checks and balances in the first place.
00:44:18.620 You know, Alexander Dugan, the Russian philosopher and perhaps chaos magician, he argues that we're beyond liberal democracy, just as we've been beyond fascism and ultimately are beyond communism.
00:44:32.720 Even if you do have states such as China or Venezuela that are ostensibly Marxist or communist, but really not really.
00:44:41.260 They're just state capitalism or however you want to describe it.
00:44:44.620 But his argument in the fourth political theory is that you can, in fact, retrieve something of value, perhaps from all of these systems and the traditional religious systems in order to combat what he sees as a globalist, transhumanist sort of future in which human beings are completely stripped of everything we knew to be soulful or even human.
00:45:06.320 Are you working on your fourth political theory?
00:45:10.760 Because he made it quite clear it's open.
00:45:12.880 There is no distinct theory.
00:45:14.920 Do you see yourself as in line with that kind of project?
00:45:19.260 You know, it's difficult because obviously Dugan is rightly a controversial figure.
00:45:24.480 You know, he's very much tied to Putin and, you know, is in many ways providing the philosophical backing for many of the actions he's taking.
00:45:32.300 And in that way, you have to be careful when you're reading his philosophy because I think he is motivated politically.
00:45:37.660 I don't think it's just an objective look at these things.
00:45:40.260 All of his answers just happen to fall into kind of the Russian empire and, you know, ultimately justifying the decisions they're making.
00:45:48.240 So I don't want people to look at this and say, well, I'm on board with Dugan's political project because that is just absolutely not the case.
00:45:55.960 However, I do think he does have some important insights into the moment we're in, many of which you're addressing there, that we really are already in a post-liberal world.
00:46:05.660 This has already occurred.
00:46:06.920 And so if we're going to figure out how to bring a political philosophy together that can work in the modern day for the situation we find ourselves in, we do have to look outside of this kind of end of history, globalist liberal project.
00:46:21.460 And we have to say, what are some of the things from older political theories that we might be able to take into the future, but maybe leave behind the things that were baggage that made them fail that we no longer want to be involved with?
00:46:34.420 And how do we marry them into the modern day, into our own tradition, into our own way of thinking so they can be more successful?
00:46:41.860 So we're not looking backwards.
00:46:43.800 We're not just, you know, trying to return to a former time we cannot return to.
00:46:48.680 But what we're trying to do is carry traditions that were lost, that were discarded by large-scale globalist liberalism intentionally in order to erode the self-reliance and particularity of different peoples.
00:47:00.740 How do we bring that into our current day and marry it with kind of where we are at so they can move forward into something that hopefully can overcome our technological problems, overcome some of the problems of modernity that we find ourselves in, but can do so by bringing forward many of these traditions that we left behind?
00:47:18.380 Unlike many people on the right, you have not neglected the issue of technology, particularly artificial intelligence.
00:47:25.840 In our final remaining minutes, I would like for you to just give me a sense of what you're working on right now.
00:47:33.640 When we last spoke, you were gracious enough to interview me and let me air my grievances against the Stargate Project and its backers.
00:47:42.160 You talked about post-human politics, and I'm very curious by what do you mean by post-human politics?
00:47:52.180 Where do you see political strategy and political life in the near or distant future in that regard?
00:48:00.320 Well, as we already know, our ruling elites are very good at manipulating us through media and all of these things.
00:48:07.440 And in a way, they're already kind of an algorithm.
00:48:10.460 They're losing their human agency.
00:48:12.060 They're building this machine.
00:48:14.160 You know, we've all heard of the term machine politics, right?
00:48:16.600 When we had the different Democrats who would run these towns and they would be able to turn people out.
00:48:21.220 And you didn't have to think about who you were voting for because the political machine had already made the decision for you.
00:48:25.160 The AI at Tammany Hall, right?
00:48:26.200 That's exactly right.
00:48:27.160 And that feels like where we're heading next.
00:48:29.580 It's no longer necessary for even humans to manipulate us in the way that they have been doing through advertisement and history and propaganda.
00:48:37.000 Instead, the AI can do it for us.
00:48:39.140 It can – we're already seeing this AI when it's deciding how to adjust different prices, different rents to squeeze people to the last little drop.
00:48:48.600 That's already horrible and dehumanizing.
00:48:50.800 But it's going to do it with your political beliefs.
00:48:53.140 It's going to learn how to manipulate you, show you exactly what it wants you to see, drive you to particular actions.
00:48:59.480 One of the visions that Alexander Dugan uses, one of the illustrations he uses, is the idea that a man used to send a text message.
00:49:06.580 Now the text message will send the man.
00:49:08.740 Imagine a – 0.61
00:49:09.480 Oh, wow, yeah.
00:49:10.400 That's beautiful.
00:49:11.040 Imagine an army of political partisans who are operating because an algorithm tells them to activate in any given time.
00:49:19.260 And which we see already, right?
00:49:20.700 And we have for arguably two decades.
00:49:24.140 It's just become more and more sophisticated.
00:49:26.220 Social media made it that much easier to kind of get a sense, take the temperature of political sentiment, and also to disseminate the propaganda.
00:49:33.500 Would you say that this is a continuation of previous processes or do you think that AI and the advanced neural networks represent a kind of quantum leap in how post-human politics are conducted?
00:49:47.320 I think it is a continuation, but it is accelerating rather quickly.
00:49:51.280 We've removed human feedback almost from the process at this point.
00:49:56.040 The AI feeds you your ideology.
00:49:58.720 It perfects the ideology.
00:50:00.020 It takes that and immediately runs it back to – there's very little interaction you're having with the machine at this point.
00:50:06.440 It's more or less driving the whole thing, and that is the concern technologically on the post-human political side that AIs will become major drivers, non-human forces that will be determining a large amount of our politics.
00:50:18.980 But the other end of this is the Dugan end when he talks about the spiritual forces, that ultimately we're seeing a culmination of post-rational spiritual forces that are re-entering into politics.
00:50:31.200 Reno calls this the return of the strong gods if you want a more American explanation of the same phenomenon.
00:50:36.700 And so more and more, we're seeing choices that are being made, I think, on a spiritual level that perhaps we're not manifesting previously.
00:50:44.380 And so I think both in the technological and spiritual realm, we're starting to see that non-human forces are on the move. 0.99
00:50:50.980 Arn, I could continue this conversation for hours, but we are out of time.
00:50:54.800 If you would, please let our audience know where they can find your work, where they can find your book, and what they can expect in the future.
00:51:01.460 Of course, I've got the book pretty much everywhere you'd expect, Barnes & Noble, Books A Million, Amazon.
00:51:06.740 The show is on The Blaze TV, and also it's, of course, on YouTube and anywhere you catch podcasts.
00:51:12.920 It's the Oren McIntyre Show.
00:51:14.740 So if you want to catch me there, I'm also on Twitter and Gab and Substack and all the places you'd expect under Oren McIntyre.
00:51:22.480 I really appreciate it, brother.
00:51:23.600 Absolutely, man. Thanks for having me.
00:51:24.800 Yeah, an honor.
00:51:25.560 All right, War Room Posse, we will be back tomorrow morning with more action-packed news and commentary with Steve Bannon back in the pilot seat.
00:51:35.760 So tune in tomorrow morning.
00:51:37.180 Thank you very much.
00:51:38.420 God bless.
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