Bannon's War Room - October 31, 2025


WarRoom Battleground EP 882: Harnwell Interviews An Advocate Of Christian Theocracy And A Neuroscientist Specialising In War


Episode Stats


Length

53 minutes

Words per minute

156.61244

Word count

8,363

Sentence count

500

Harmful content

Misogyny

9

sentences flagged

Hate speech

18

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Pastor Doug Wilson joins Steve and the War Room posse to talk about what it means to be a Christian nationalist and theocratic state, and what it looks like to live under the theocratic theism of the Christian nationalist movement.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.000 This is the primal scream of a dying regime.
00:00:07.700 Pray for our enemies, because we're going medieval on these people.
00:00:12.940 I got a free shot at all these networks lying about the people.
00:00:17.200 The people have had a belly full of it.
00:00:19.120 I know you don't like hearing that.
00:00:20.540 I know you try to do everything in the world to stop that,
00:00:22.300 but you're not going to stop it.
00:00:23.240 It's going to happen.
00:00:24.500 And where do people like that go to share the big lie?
00:00:27.900 Mega Media.
00:00:28.800 I wish in my soul, I wish that any of these people had a conscience.
00:00:34.680 Ask yourself, what is my task and what is my purpose?
00:00:38.440 If that answer is to save my country, this country will be saved.
00:00:44.820 War Room. Here's your host, Stephen K. Bannon.
00:00:54.260 Good evening, Harnwell here at the helm on Steve Bannon's War Room.
00:00:58.060 We've got a great show for you over the next hour.
00:01:00.920 In fact, we're talking to who many people consider to be the honorary chaplain of the Christian nationalist movement,
00:01:09.140 Pastor Doug Wilson.
00:01:11.360 Pastor Wilson, many thanks indeed for coming on to the show.
00:01:15.380 Folks might know you somewhat in the press as being the lightning rod from liberals and progressives who believe you want to,
00:01:29.020 well, with some justice, want to restore a theocratic state to fully submit the United States to the glories that it once was, 0.77
00:01:39.640 which was a nation under God, that is under God's holy law.
00:01:44.220 This is something that I think is going to be meat and drink to the War Room audience.
00:01:49.320 Before I hand over to you, though, I've noticed that you have said that many people have said that if you get your way,
00:01:58.760 many people are listening to you, many people in the White House, many people in MAGA are listening to you,
00:02:05.580 you are an increasingly important voice in this movement.
00:02:08.960 But the accusation has been made that if Doug Wilson gets his way,
00:02:14.560 then women are going to have to be put in the red robes with the white bonnets. 1.00
00:02:18.440 You know, it's going to be, it's going to be pure handmade, handmade tale territory.
00:02:26.020 Is that a reasonable criticism?
00:02:29.080 Well, last time I was in D.C. preaching at our church plant there,
00:02:32.680 I actually talked to a couple of women in red dresses. 1.00
00:02:35.800 They were actually there.
00:02:38.600 Now, of course, I think they were paid to be there by somebody else.
00:02:41.720 But yeah, it's the whole idea.
00:02:45.440 Were they prepping for the future?
00:02:49.560 Yeah, they were in training, apparently.
00:02:55.600 This is a scare tactic thing.
00:03:00.840 It's scare tactics, right?
00:03:01.880 It's scare tactics, of course it is.
00:03:03.860 That said, I know many people will be slightly disappointed
00:03:07.120 because that's exactly what they're hoping to see.
00:03:10.480 You're clearly on the liberal progressive wing of Christian nationalism.
00:03:13.480 Nationalism just shows that we interview.
00:03:16.540 It's a broad church on the war room.
00:03:19.080 Seriously, though, tell us, the war room posse,
00:03:22.400 tell us more structurally about your thought here.
00:03:25.280 What does it mean to reestablish America as a nation under God?
00:03:29.940 And what does theocracy and theocratic state,
00:03:32.880 you have described yourself as a theocrat,
00:03:35.700 what does this mean in Doug Wilson's vocabulary?
00:03:39.180 Yeah, what it means is that is the recognition that the secular project,
00:03:46.060 the secular liberalism project has failed.
00:03:50.000 That is the claim that we can govern ourselves without reference to God.
00:03:55.740 We don't need a transcendent anchor to keep our thoughts coherent.
00:04:02.220 Such is the claim.
00:04:05.200 But after a generation or more of that,
00:04:08.060 we've gotten to the point where we don't know what a woman is. 1.00
00:04:11.840 We have someone sitting on the Supreme Court who doesn't know what a woman is. 1.00
00:04:15.840 But if you don't know what a woman is, you don't know what a human being is. 1.00
00:04:19.080 And if you don't know what a human being is, you don't know what human rights are.
00:04:22.760 And if you don't know what human rights are,
00:04:24.580 what are you doing on the Supreme Court of the United States?
00:04:26.880 So we've got the sexual revolution and the tranny insanity and kids dressing up like furries. 1.00
00:04:37.320 That basically, this is what happens when you say,
00:04:40.500 we don't need God.
00:04:41.340 All we need is science.
00:04:42.820 All we need is reason.
00:04:44.260 All we need is enlightened, liberal thought.
00:04:47.200 Well, everything's coming apart in our hands.
00:04:50.200 Basically, the recognition is that we need Christ.
00:04:55.420 It's either, as I'm fond of saying, it's either Christ or chaos.
00:04:59.360 And you just need to look around to see the chaos.
00:05:03.720 Basically, the whole thing is coming apart in our hands.
00:05:06.800 And so consequently, I think we need to cry out to the Lord.
00:05:09.440 We need to say, God, we have painted ourselves into a very bad corner.
00:05:15.800 Well, many people will say amen to that.
00:05:18.400 And it's clear, except from a Christian perspective, 0.93
00:05:20.820 that Christ needs to be the center of our social life,
00:05:24.940 of our political life, of everything.
00:05:27.600 Right.
00:05:27.860 Is there a tension?
00:05:29.040 Is there a tension?
00:05:29.880 But, you know, I'm going to ask you whether there's a tension there
00:05:32.920 between having the sovereignty of Christ
00:05:36.220 and a nation where the sovereignty, let's say,
00:05:39.900 belongs either depending on your interpretation to the people
00:05:43.260 or to the Constitution.
00:05:46.200 Tell me something about the tension there.
00:05:48.620 And also, because I have to ask you this,
00:05:50.880 what the role for non-Christians and religious minorities will be.
00:05:56.080 But more substantially than that, those two points,
00:05:58.440 tell me, because everyone who follows this show will agree
00:06:01.600 to what you said.
00:06:02.560 It's either Christ or chaos.
00:06:04.000 But how does Doug Wilson's philosophy differ
00:06:08.480 from the Common or Garden evangelical viewpoint?
00:06:12.920 Why are liberals so terrified of you?
00:06:17.220 What's the theocratic element here behind your thought
00:06:21.340 that is really driving them crazy right now?
00:06:24.680 The theocratic element is our recognition that also,
00:06:29.060 I'm not arguing for us to become a theocracy.
00:06:31.800 We are a theocracy right now.
00:06:35.080 All societies are theocratic.
00:06:37.640 The only thing that distinguishes them is who the God is.
00:06:41.520 Every social order has a God of the system.
00:06:45.780 So in a democracy, a pure democracy,
00:06:49.640 demos, the people, would be the God of the system.
00:06:53.500 The God of the system is the one past which
00:06:56.260 there is no further appeal.
00:06:58.080 Now, I believe that since all societies
00:07:01.780 are inescapably theocratic,
00:07:04.120 and the only question is who's Theo,
00:07:06.980 that theos, that God, that deity,
00:07:10.120 should be the true one, should be the true God.
00:07:12.680 And of course, as a Christian,
00:07:14.000 I believe the Christian God is the true and living God.
00:07:17.000 So that's the first thing.
00:07:18.380 The second thing is,
00:07:19.900 just touching on religious minorities
00:07:22.180 and people who don't agree,
00:07:23.440 the heritage of the West that we're trying to preserve,
00:07:27.880 that we're fighting to preserve,
00:07:29.560 is the heritage that invented liberty of conscience.
00:07:34.400 All right?
00:07:34.600 That's our baby.
00:07:35.880 That's our legacy.
00:07:37.200 That's what we did.
00:07:38.600 It is the left that denies the right of personal conscience.
00:07:43.360 And so consequently,
00:07:44.420 if we structured our laws in accordance with Scripture,
00:07:48.060 if we recognize the God of the Bible,
00:07:51.060 the God of the Bible tells us
00:07:52.620 that we are not to promulgate
00:07:55.600 our religious convictions by force.
00:07:58.540 All right?
00:07:58.760 We can, our laws that require force,
00:08:02.160 laws against murder and rape and so on,
00:08:04.360 need to have a transcendental foundation.
00:08:06.920 But that doesn't mean that you get to prosecute sins
00:08:10.460 as though they were crimes.
00:08:12.160 So in Christian theology,
00:08:14.840 there's a distinction between a sin and a crime.
00:08:17.840 I believe that crimes ought to be biblically defined
00:08:20.700 and we ought to leave a vast swath of sins alone.
00:08:25.840 So I don't want to establish a covetousness police, right?
00:08:31.700 Covetousness is a sin and it's a very serious sin.
00:08:34.600 It's in the Ten Commandments.
00:08:35.800 But I don't want covetousness police.
00:08:38.240 How do you choose?
00:08:43.720 Why not?
00:08:44.360 Why don't you want covetousness police? 1.00
00:08:46.500 Why not go along the Persian route, 0.64
00:08:50.600 the Iranian route,
00:08:52.280 and have basically sin police?
00:08:55.400 How do you choose which of the commandments
00:08:57.540 you're going to enforce
00:08:58.580 and which you're not going to enforce?
00:09:01.120 Yeah.
00:09:01.600 So the answer to that would be Bible study.
00:09:04.060 So for example,
00:09:04.740 if you read the Bible carefully,
00:09:06.060 there are certain things that the Bible prohibits
00:09:08.860 and which the Bible attaches a civil penalty to.
00:09:13.520 There are other things that the Bible prohibits,
00:09:16.060 but there's no civil penalty attached to it at all.
00:09:19.560 And so in my thinking,
00:09:21.860 I call myself a theocrat,
00:09:23.140 but also a theocratic libertarian.
00:09:25.460 I believe that in the vast swath of human endeavor,
00:09:28.840 the government ought to simply leave us alone.
00:09:30.980 And if the Bible doesn't,
00:09:34.400 and so for me,
00:09:35.540 coercion is a big deal. 1.00
00:09:37.420 And so if the state is going to coerce me on some issue,
00:09:41.240 I want them to have scriptural foundation for doing it.
00:09:45.180 So rape and murder and theft
00:09:47.560 and those sorts of things
00:09:48.680 are things that we find in the Bible prohibited as sins,
00:09:52.560 but also taught in the Bible as crimes,
00:09:55.860 treated as crimes.
00:09:56.940 But there are things that are clearly sinful,
00:10:00.920 like envy, right?
00:10:02.900 You've got envy in your heart.
00:10:04.340 But the civil magistrate is not competent
00:10:07.320 to weigh whether or not I'm envious.
00:10:11.100 We leave that to God at the last day.
00:10:13.480 And the Bible never assigns a civil penalty
00:10:16.480 for sins like envy or jealousy or hatred
00:10:21.540 or, you know, things like that.
00:10:23.400 As long as you don't take steps to act on your hatred
00:10:28.340 via murder,
00:10:29.660 then the state leaves you alone.
00:10:32.580 And so this is the thing
00:10:34.860 that a lot of people would be surprised by.
00:10:37.440 Under a theocratic libertarian order,
00:10:40.720 the average citizen would have a great deal more freedom
00:10:44.180 than he currently has.
00:10:45.800 We're not we're not ushering in a reformed despotic regime
00:10:52.020 where reformed clergymen with weird beards
00:10:54.920 are telling you or orchestrating every detail of your life.
00:11:00.080 We have that now, right?
00:11:02.280 We have that now.
00:11:03.240 They they tell me that I have to sort my garbage now.
00:11:06.780 They tell me what light bulbs I get to use now.
00:11:10.280 They tell me that I have to put a brick
00:11:12.620 in the tank of my toilet now.
00:11:14.860 You know, they're regulating every last detail of life now.
00:11:20.080 And and we're we want to get away from that.
00:11:23.980 Here in Italy, the government tells you
00:11:25.940 when you're allowed to turn your central heating on or off.
00:11:29.160 You know, George III, King George III
00:11:32.040 would blush with shame
00:11:33.980 if he saw what was going on in America right now,
00:11:38.480 that the long train of abuses
00:11:40.140 that there was the legitimate cause
00:11:42.700 for the revolutionaries to throw off the English crown
00:11:46.060 was minuscule compared to the size and scope
00:11:49.900 of the U.S. government today.
00:11:53.200 So, you know, it's not often you hear these terms.
00:11:57.420 Theocracy and libertarian welded together
00:12:00.360 in the same philosophy.
00:12:02.380 But it would make sense.
00:12:03.640 It's coherent what you're saying.
00:12:04.560 If you think about the Jews at the time of, I don't know,
00:12:07.540 the time of the New Testament, the first century.
00:12:12.200 Yeah.
00:12:12.580 I mean, there's the code of law
00:12:15.320 was effectively the Bible, the Old Testament.
00:12:18.200 And that was massively less invasive
00:12:23.500 than the full gamut of local, state, and federal government today.
00:12:28.160 Just, I have to go to a break in two minutes,
00:12:31.840 but here's a question for you
00:12:33.300 when you're talking about bringing these two things,
00:12:35.980 the state and religion, faith, together again,
00:12:40.060 bringing them back together.
00:12:42.140 The founding fathers were quite concerned
00:12:45.180 about the possibility of state power
00:12:48.280 to pollute the integrity of the Christian faith.
00:12:53.440 And that was the primary motive behind the concept, right,
00:12:56.820 of the separation of church and state.
00:13:00.280 It wasn't remotely what the secularists had in mind.
00:13:03.000 They really did.
00:13:03.920 They wanted a Christian nation,
00:13:05.240 but they didn't want the polluting political powers
00:13:08.260 to corrupt the church as the crown had done
00:13:11.380 with the established Church of England.
00:13:13.660 Right. Exactly.
00:13:15.460 Which is the case that you see.
00:13:16.900 But tell me, if you're bringing these two forces together,
00:13:19.980 how do you keep the integrity of the Christian faith
00:13:23.720 from being polluted by politicians, by the state?
00:13:29.400 I would say that I support wholeheartedly
00:13:31.960 the separation of church and state,
00:13:34.120 but that's different than the separation of morality and state.
00:13:37.520 A church is an ecclesiastical government, 0.79
00:13:41.980 and the founders did not want a national church
00:13:44.580 of the United States.
00:13:46.100 There were soft establishments at the state level,
00:13:48.920 and in three cases, hard establishments at the state level.
00:13:52.100 And I don't even think they're a good idea there, right?
00:13:55.160 I'm in favor of a soft establishment
00:13:57.200 where the state simply says the Christian faith is true,
00:14:00.500 but doesn't support any particular denomination with tax money.
00:14:04.900 That's the kiss of death for that denomination,
00:14:08.240 and it's just not good.
00:14:09.840 In Federalist 48, it says that power is of an encroaching nature,
00:14:15.680 and the Constitution is a work of theological genius
00:14:19.020 because they spread the power as thinly as possible
00:14:22.060 at the national and state levels,
00:14:24.780 and then with the separation of powers.
00:14:27.000 That's profoundly Christian.
00:14:30.740 Just hold on, Pastor Wilson.
00:14:33.820 I'm going to come back to you in just two minutes
00:14:36.700 to explore these themes further.
00:14:39.240 When inflation jumps,
00:14:40.620 when you hear the national debt is over $38 trillion,
00:14:44.920 as it is now,
00:14:45.640 it's just increased by $1 trillion,
00:14:47.540 do you ever think maybe now would be a good time
00:14:50.480 to buy some gold?
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00:15:21.000 Text Bannon, B-A-N-N-O-N,
00:15:24.040 to 989898.
00:15:26.500 Again, that's Bannon to 989898.
00:15:31.180 Back to Pastor Wilson.
00:15:33.000 So many people listening would be slightly surprised
00:15:35.760 because the overwhelming cultural force
00:15:38.560 is obviously the secularist establishment.
00:15:40.680 To find out that at the time of the establishment
00:15:47.000 of the federal government,
00:15:49.020 there were states that actually had,
00:15:52.000 individually, on an individual basis,
00:15:55.900 a degree of establishment,
00:15:57.060 what you call soft establishment.
00:15:59.380 But the point about the Constitution
00:16:01.680 is that no force, no legal force,
00:16:05.020 would try to impose that across the whole of the nation.
00:16:07.440 Right.
00:16:08.720 The only entity that could violate the First Amendment
00:16:11.260 is Congress.
00:16:13.060 Congress shall make no law
00:16:14.420 concerning the establishment of religion.
00:16:17.180 But when the Constitution was ratified,
00:16:20.640 Massachusetts, Connecticut, and New Hampshire
00:16:22.780 all had established state churches
00:16:25.940 at the state level.
00:16:27.640 And then the 14th state to come in,
00:16:30.300 Vermont,
00:16:31.180 came into the Union
00:16:32.620 with an established state church.
00:16:35.240 That was hard establishment.
00:16:36.920 South Carolina didn't have a connection
00:16:39.320 to any denomination,
00:16:40.820 but they simply said
00:16:41.880 the Protestant religion
00:16:42.980 is the faith of the state.
00:16:45.620 Right.
00:16:45.820 They simply confessed
00:16:47.420 that there was a transcendental grounding.
00:16:49.680 Now, I don't think
00:16:50.760 that hard establishment
00:16:52.620 at the state level
00:16:53.520 is a good idea either.
00:16:55.180 I'm in favor of separation
00:16:56.940 church and state everywhere.
00:16:58.280 But I can say
00:16:59.460 that it's not an unconstitutional idea.
00:17:02.060 At the founding,
00:17:04.220 the majority of the states
00:17:06.140 had a formal relationship
00:17:08.340 with the Christian faith,
00:17:10.020 overwhelmingly so.
00:17:11.600 And I simply want to return to that.
00:17:14.540 One of the striking things
00:17:15.700 is that in 1892,
00:17:17.900 there was a Supreme Court decision,
00:17:21.160 and this was over a century
00:17:22.780 after the founding.
00:17:24.280 In 1892,
00:17:25.580 there's a Supreme Court decision
00:17:27.000 called Holy Trinity
00:17:28.200 versus the United States,
00:17:29.840 which is a funny name
00:17:32.060 for this court case.
00:17:33.540 Holy Trinity was a church
00:17:34.880 in New York.
00:17:36.360 And so there was,
00:17:41.200 they had hired a British minister
00:17:42.740 and had paid his passage over,
00:17:45.420 and that was against the law,
00:17:47.120 and some zealous prosecutor
00:17:48.320 went after them.
00:17:49.700 The Supreme Court decided
00:17:51.440 in favor of the church
00:17:52.340 in a common sense way.
00:17:54.460 Okay, that's not it.
00:17:55.640 But then Justice Brewer said,
00:17:57.960 while we're on the subject,
00:17:58.980 let us remind you
00:18:00.980 that the United States
00:18:02.080 is a Christian nation
00:18:03.280 and has been since its founding.
00:18:06.060 And then Justice Brewer
00:18:07.140 went through the history
00:18:08.420 of the United States
00:18:09.200 and showed over and over
00:18:10.360 and over again
00:18:11.000 how we were a Christian nation.
00:18:13.080 Now, that was in 1892.
00:18:15.580 All right?
00:18:16.000 Now, that means that
00:18:17.280 when I was born, 1953,
00:18:19.640 the day of my birth
00:18:21.040 was closer to that
00:18:22.540 Supreme Court decision
00:18:23.880 than the day of my birth
00:18:25.300 was to our conversation today.
00:18:27.640 All right?
00:18:28.520 It wasn't that long ago.
00:18:30.540 So we were
00:18:32.280 and understood ourselves
00:18:33.620 to be a Christian nation.
00:18:35.520 And this was common knowledge
00:18:39.000 up until the Second World War.
00:18:41.740 And after the Second World War,
00:18:43.960 federal courts started
00:18:45.240 quietly insinuating
00:18:47.420 that the wall of separation
00:18:49.720 that Jefferson referred to
00:18:51.100 in a private letter
00:18:51.900 was somehow the way it was
00:18:53.700 at the founding,
00:18:54.760 the separation of church and state.
00:18:56.320 Well, yes, separation of church and state,
00:18:58.480 but that doesn't mean
00:19:00.240 separation of righteousness and state
00:19:02.040 or morality and state.
00:19:03.520 Who in their right mind
00:19:04.620 would say,
00:19:05.360 I want to be governed by people
00:19:06.860 who have absolutely
00:19:08.280 no connection to morality?
00:19:12.420 That's insane.
00:19:13.620 Right?
00:19:14.540 This is why we have experts
00:19:17.280 like you on this show.
00:19:19.220 And I thought I'd read
00:19:20.380 quite widely about
00:19:21.740 some of these things.
00:19:22.940 And you're absolutely right
00:19:25.760 to point out
00:19:26.800 that the prohibition
00:19:28.200 is on Congress here,
00:19:30.700 on establishment, right?
00:19:33.540 Now, you said
00:19:34.660 that you are against
00:19:36.800 the establishment
00:19:37.900 of a formal church.
00:19:40.720 But what you do want
00:19:41.800 is to see Christianity 0.92
00:19:43.360 have full space
00:19:45.100 in the public square.
00:19:46.900 And people to publicly confess,
00:19:48.760 obviously,
00:19:49.140 that they are inspired
00:19:50.440 by Jesus Christ.
00:19:52.360 But let me ask you
00:19:53.400 this question, right?
00:19:55.260 Let me ask you
00:19:55.900 this question.
00:19:57.380 Could President Trump,
00:19:58.680 via executive order,
00:20:01.460 establish,
00:20:01.960 could he do,
00:20:06.000 could he push out
00:20:06.780 an EO
00:20:07.280 that would broadly
00:20:08.040 adopt
00:20:08.820 what you're wanting here?
00:20:11.720 Because he's obviously,
00:20:13.400 in and of himself,
00:20:14.120 he's one of the three branches
00:20:15.260 of government, right?
00:20:16.540 He's not Congress.
00:20:17.700 He's not the Supreme Court.
00:20:18.600 He's the president.
00:20:19.740 Could he do that?
00:20:20.820 Would that be constitutional
00:20:22.020 for you?
00:20:22.900 Is that something
00:20:23.380 that you would urge
00:20:24.640 him to consider,
00:20:26.300 to establish Christianity
00:20:27.820 formally
00:20:28.540 as the religious
00:20:30.800 and cultural basis
00:20:32.220 of the United States?
00:20:34.740 I don't know
00:20:35.920 that an executive order
00:20:37.280 would be the way to do it.
00:20:38.620 I would prefer,
00:20:39.420 just aside from
00:20:40.440 a constitutional amendment,
00:20:42.820 there are things
00:20:43.600 that I think we could do,
00:20:44.940 like a joint proclamation
00:20:46.820 of Congress.
00:20:48.280 So all Congress has to do
00:20:50.220 is pass a resolution
00:20:51.680 saying that it is
00:20:53.520 our conviction
00:20:54.140 and it is the opinion
00:20:55.440 of the Senate
00:20:56.700 and the House
00:20:57.260 that Jesus rose
00:20:58.480 from the dead
00:20:59.120 and have the president
00:21:01.920 sign it.
00:21:02.640 That would keep
00:21:03.480 the liberals busy
00:21:05.220 for a while
00:21:05.780 because you're not
00:21:07.520 doing anything
00:21:11.420 that requires
00:21:13.660 anything of anybody,
00:21:14.980 but you're simply
00:21:15.780 testifying.
00:21:17.820 Yeah.
00:21:18.180 I think that mirrors 0.93
00:21:19.460 the Polish situation
00:21:20.840 and the Irish Constitution
00:21:23.260 which takes its inspiration
00:21:25.220 from the Holy Trinity.
00:21:27.260 However,
00:21:28.500 to stay on this point,
00:21:30.660 to stay on this point,
00:21:31.380 obviously,
00:21:32.260 obviously,
00:21:33.220 some kind of law
00:21:34.880 passed by Congress
00:21:36.620 would be,
00:21:37.320 or resolution
00:21:37.840 passed by Congress,
00:21:38.880 would be the most,
00:21:40.180 would be the most,
00:21:42.700 permanent way.
00:21:43.660 However,
00:21:44.440 circumventing the fact
00:21:45.620 that Congress
00:21:46.320 shall establish
00:21:48.240 no religion,
00:21:49.420 why,
00:21:50.940 as a first step
00:21:51.860 before you get
00:21:53.480 your majorities
00:21:54.280 in both houses
00:21:55.600 of Congress,
00:21:56.580 why not push
00:21:58.060 the president
00:21:58.880 to push out
00:22:01.520 an EO
00:22:02.200 adopting most
00:22:04.600 of what you want
00:22:07.120 to achieve?
00:22:08.520 Because he's not
00:22:08.960 constitutionally prohibited,
00:22:10.080 is he?
00:22:10.600 He's not Congress.
00:22:11.220 No,
00:22:11.440 he isn't.
00:22:12.340 An executive order
00:22:13.580 could be something like,
00:22:15.560 I am directing
00:22:16.500 all the offices
00:22:18.700 in the executive branch
00:22:20.120 to celebrate Christmas
00:22:21.640 and the birth
00:22:23.520 of our Lord Jesus Christ.
00:22:24.680 He could,
00:22:25.860 but his executive orders
00:22:27.360 have to be directed
00:22:28.740 to entities
00:22:30.240 he has actual authority
00:22:31.560 over
00:22:31.940 to tell them
00:22:33.080 to do something.
00:22:34.540 Right?
00:22:35.320 So,
00:22:36.200 I would be in favor
00:22:37.500 of something like that.
00:22:39.940 They can acknowledge
00:22:41.020 that Jesus Christ
00:22:41.920 is the Son of God
00:22:42.900 and Savior.
00:22:44.360 They can acknowledge
00:22:45.260 that Jesus Christ
00:22:47.600 was born
00:22:48.100 for the salvation
00:22:48.780 of man,
00:22:49.320 right?
00:22:49.980 That would be
00:22:50.460 a phenomenal,
00:22:51.840 right?
00:22:52.180 That would be
00:22:52.680 an absolutely
00:22:53.600 phenomenal maneuver.
00:22:56.520 Right.
00:22:57.400 Yes.
00:22:58.320 And it would be
00:22:58.760 pretty festive
00:22:59.300 for a couple of months
00:23:00.200 afterwards.
00:23:00.460 And it would keep
00:23:01.000 the liberals busy.
00:23:03.820 as you said.
00:23:05.740 Tell me a bit,
00:23:07.020 because we've only got
00:23:07.780 two minutes left now,
00:23:08.860 tell me a bit
00:23:09.820 about your book
00:23:10.860 that the frequently
00:23:11.620 shouted questions
00:23:13.260 about Christian nationalism.
00:23:15.880 Yeah,
00:23:16.440 a few years ago,
00:23:17.440 our publishing house
00:23:18.560 here,
00:23:18.840 Canon Press,
00:23:19.860 published Stephen Wolf's book,
00:23:21.440 The Case for Christian Nationalism. 0.87
00:23:23.340 And then shortly after that,
00:23:24.680 I published a book,
00:23:26.000 Mere Christendom,
00:23:27.220 and arguing for the basics
00:23:28.940 of this whole approach.
00:23:31.280 On my blog
00:23:32.260 and in other places,
00:23:33.100 there were a lot
00:23:34.560 of questions
00:23:35.420 and accusations
00:23:36.560 and things thrown at us.
00:23:38.460 And I spent a lot of time
00:23:39.680 answering these FAQs
00:23:41.680 on my blog.
00:23:42.580 And then I realized
00:23:43.400 I'd written a lot
00:23:44.680 answering these questions.
00:23:46.880 And so we edited
00:23:47.840 the questions
00:23:48.520 and assembled them
00:23:49.380 into the book,
00:23:50.540 frequently shouted questions
00:23:52.240 on Christian nationalism.
00:23:53.780 And they address
00:23:54.920 all the common,
00:23:56.280 what about this?
00:23:57.000 What about that?
00:23:57.700 What about imposing morality?
00:24:00.760 What about separation
00:24:01.540 and church and state?
00:24:02.780 What about,
00:24:03.340 you know,
00:24:03.800 so on.
00:24:04.480 And so these are,
00:24:05.660 these FAQs
00:24:06.780 are the sorts of things
00:24:07.940 that your worried
00:24:09.360 uncle or aunt
00:24:10.440 might be asking you about.
00:24:12.940 And it's a great resource
00:24:14.080 for answering those questions.
00:24:16.880 So it's something
00:24:17.900 to consider about
00:24:18.820 for Christmas
00:24:19.380 and Thanksgiving
00:24:20.120 that are coming up.
00:24:22.680 Tell me about the reaction
00:24:23.700 that the book has had.
00:24:24.520 I know that,
00:24:24.860 I know that Tucker Carlson
00:24:26.040 has said
00:24:26.560 that you are
00:24:28.140 the Christian nationalist
00:24:29.240 they warned you about.
00:24:31.060 Tell me about the reaction
00:24:31.840 of the book more generally.
00:24:33.160 Is this something
00:24:34.000 that really gets
00:24:35.200 the libs on edge?
00:24:37.320 It really does.
00:24:38.860 You know,
00:24:39.200 I'm a pastor
00:24:39.860 in the panhandle
00:24:40.800 of North Idaho.
00:24:42.520 I don't have
00:24:43.700 enormous connections
00:24:45.000 and that sort of thing.
00:24:46.740 I'm a writer
00:24:47.560 and a preacher.
00:24:48.840 But in recent months,
00:24:50.640 I've been interviewed
00:24:51.360 by the New York Times
00:24:52.340 and the Wall Street Journal
00:24:53.740 and Politico
00:24:55.120 and the Associated Press
00:24:56.740 and CNN,
00:24:58.680 they are really worried
00:25:00.640 about this.
00:25:02.380 And I think
00:25:03.000 they're worried about it
00:25:03.820 because their project
00:25:05.540 has collapsed
00:25:06.740 and is not capable,
00:25:11.020 therefore,
00:25:11.420 of mounting
00:25:11.940 the kind of resistance
00:25:13.480 that they wish they could.
00:25:17.820 If people wanted
00:25:19.040 to learn more
00:25:20.060 about how to weld
00:25:21.620 these two philosophies together,
00:25:24.460 the libertarianism
00:25:25.460 and the theocratic together,
00:25:28.380 obviously,
00:25:28.880 they can go to you
00:25:29.760 on social media.
00:25:30.720 In fact,
00:25:31.040 why don't we just quickly
00:25:32.280 now recite
00:25:33.100 your social media?
00:25:34.200 But I'll also ask you
00:25:35.400 where else they might go.
00:25:36.940 Where do people go
00:25:37.640 on social media
00:25:38.300 to keep up with you?
00:25:39.960 Okay,
00:25:40.560 on X,
00:25:41.340 it would be
00:25:43.020 at Douglas Wills,
00:25:44.880 D-O-U-G-L-A-S-W-I-L-S, 1.00
00:25:48.560 Douglas Wills.
00:25:49.720 And then my blog
00:25:50.880 is dougwills.com
00:25:52.440 and it's called
00:25:53.580 Blog and May Blog.
00:25:55.200 And pretty much
00:25:56.060 everything I'm involved with
00:25:57.240 is somewhere there
00:25:58.380 on the front page
00:25:59.160 of my blog.
00:26:01.440 Okay,
00:26:02.040 so look,
00:26:02.520 in the final 30 seconds,
00:26:04.340 just tell me
00:26:04.900 some of the key sources
00:26:06.460 that you have found useful.
00:26:08.320 If people have listened
00:26:09.120 to this,
00:26:09.600 they'll get your books,
00:26:10.980 they'll follow you on Twitter
00:26:12.100 and they'll start reading.
00:26:13.040 Just give,
00:26:13.800 where can people go
00:26:14.680 to understand more?
00:26:15.920 Because it's a very rare thing
00:26:17.280 to hear someone talk,
00:26:18.320 to say,
00:26:18.900 I am a theocratic libertarian.
00:26:21.380 What else can you
00:26:22.640 point them towards?
00:26:23.920 I would mention
00:26:24.500 two books published
00:26:25.340 by Canon Press,
00:26:26.300 our publishing house.
00:26:27.880 One is
00:26:28.520 Vindicii Contra Tyrannos,
00:26:30.980 a book from the 16th century,
00:26:33.240 A Vindication Against Tyrants.
00:26:35.280 It's just a great,
00:26:36.560 great book.
00:26:37.260 And then a history
00:26:38.060 of Christian resistance
00:26:39.200 called Slaying Leviathan
00:26:41.000 by Glenn Sunshine.
00:26:44.060 That's perfect.
00:26:45.320 Pastor Douglas Wilson,
00:26:46.560 very,
00:26:46.940 very grateful
00:26:47.480 that we've been able
00:26:48.220 to get you on the show.
00:26:49.320 I hope you're going to come back
00:26:50.460 and give us your analysis
00:26:51.820 at some future points.
00:26:53.860 But many,
00:26:54.900 many thanks for this
00:26:55.820 unique synthesis
00:26:57.780 of interpretation.
00:26:59.140 God bless for now.
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00:30:55.520 Hello,
00:30:56.080 America's Voice family.
00:30:57.100 Are you on
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00:31:13.220 what Steve Bannon's
00:31:14.180 thinking?
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00:31:16.960 of your favorites.
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00:31:24.600 the movement.
00:31:27.060 Welcome back.
00:31:27.880 Well, if I recited
00:31:28.760 the full CV of my
00:31:30.400 next guest,
00:31:31.900 that's going to take
00:31:32.480 up the full
00:31:32.900 21 minutes
00:31:34.520 of this block.
00:31:36.060 Dr. Nicholas Wright,
00:31:37.560 welcome on to the show.
00:31:38.660 You have been an advisor
00:31:40.460 to the Pentagon Joint Chiefs
00:31:42.040 of Staff,
00:31:42.460 I think,
00:31:42.800 for over a decade.
00:31:44.600 You're an affiliate
00:31:45.620 scholar at Georgetown,
00:31:48.560 et cetera,
00:31:49.180 et cetera,
00:31:49.700 et cetera.
00:31:50.540 Huge,
00:31:51.060 huge academic
00:31:52.400 CV.
00:31:53.300 and you've published
00:31:57.040 this book
00:31:57.780 with the title
00:31:58.380 Warhead,
00:31:58.980 how the brain
00:32:00.880 shapes war
00:32:01.760 and war
00:32:03.080 shapes the brain.
00:32:06.760 And that basically,
00:32:07.460 the thesis
00:32:07.940 is,
00:32:08.780 I think,
00:32:09.840 to do the interplay
00:32:10.680 between the
00:32:11.460 amygdala
00:32:12.300 and the prefrontal
00:32:14.700 cortex
00:32:15.740 and the civil
00:32:17.380 war,
00:32:17.680 the neuron
00:32:18.120 civil war
00:32:18.800 between the two
00:32:19.980 areas.
00:32:20.820 And that somehow
00:32:21.440 makes us hard.
00:32:22.380 Well,
00:32:22.580 I'm not a neuroscientist.
00:32:24.880 That's my simplification.
00:32:26.780 And how,
00:32:27.100 but how that somehow
00:32:27.920 hardwires
00:32:30.300 aggression
00:32:30.980 and war
00:32:32.160 on the national
00:32:33.120 stage
00:32:33.440 when humans
00:32:33.960 come together
00:32:34.380 and act
00:32:34.760 socially.
00:32:36.320 Just in your
00:32:37.060 own words,
00:32:38.300 in your words,
00:32:38.920 explain to us
00:32:39.900 this thesis
00:32:40.940 and why it's
00:32:41.660 important.
00:32:43.640 Yeah,
00:32:44.020 so,
00:32:44.240 well,
00:32:44.380 thank you very much,
00:32:45.060 Ben,
00:32:45.180 for having me on.
00:32:46.080 So,
00:32:46.920 as you say,
00:32:48.240 the central idea
00:32:49.860 is that conflict
00:32:51.200 is part of us.
00:32:52.820 So,
00:32:53.060 throughout
00:32:53.480 prehistory
00:32:54.500 and history,
00:32:56.260 humans have
00:32:57.380 often faced
00:32:58.220 life-threatening
00:32:58.880 emergencies.
00:32:59.660 That could be
00:33:00.440 starvation,
00:33:01.180 it could be
00:33:01.940 violence,
00:33:02.840 life-threatening
00:33:03.320 violence.
00:33:04.160 And that's why
00:33:04.560 every brain,
00:33:05.280 yours,
00:33:05.640 Ben,
00:33:05.860 and mine,
00:33:06.360 and every viewer's
00:33:07.380 brain,
00:33:08.080 is built of
00:33:08.900 survival-grade
00:33:10.160 neural machinery.
00:33:12.220 Right?
00:33:12.380 It's built,
00:33:12.960 every brain is built
00:33:13.880 to win or at least
00:33:14.960 survive a fight.
00:33:16.640 And now,
00:33:17.060 as you travel
00:33:17.640 from the brainstem,
00:33:18.440 right at the base
00:33:19.160 of the brain,
00:33:19.920 through past the
00:33:20.540 amygdala that you
00:33:21.200 mentioned,
00:33:21.620 all the way through
00:33:22.060 to the frontal pole,
00:33:22.900 this bit right at
00:33:23.760 the very front of the
00:33:24.680 brain that is the
00:33:25.600 most distinctively
00:33:26.420 human part of the
00:33:27.180 brain,
00:33:27.520 does our most
00:33:27.940 sophisticated thinking
00:33:29.020 about thinking,
00:33:29.840 every part of the
00:33:31.440 brain can drive us
00:33:32.380 towards war.
00:33:33.860 There's not one
00:33:34.720 simple reason why
00:33:35.440 we're driven towards
00:33:36.020 war.
00:33:36.380 Every part of the
00:33:37.220 brain can contribute
00:33:38.100 to driving us
00:33:38.900 towards war.
00:33:39.720 But I'm actually
00:33:40.640 optimistic.
00:33:41.380 I don't want this to
00:33:41.860 be pessimistic.
00:33:42.580 I'm optimistic
00:33:43.180 because I think we
00:33:44.080 can know so much
00:33:45.500 more about ourselves
00:33:46.340 than we ever could
00:33:47.180 before.
00:33:48.040 And if we can
00:33:48.640 understand why
00:33:49.540 humans fight,
00:33:51.280 then we can reduce
00:33:52.140 the chances that
00:33:52.980 there will be wars
00:33:53.920 or that wars will
00:33:54.760 escalate if they
00:33:55.600 start.
00:33:55.980 And I don't
00:33:57.500 think we can
00:33:57.840 ever banish war,
00:33:58.840 but I'm optimistic
00:33:59.600 that if we
00:34:00.360 understand ourselves
00:34:01.040 better,
00:34:01.440 then we can harness
00:34:02.440 what's always been
00:34:03.020 the central weapon
00:34:04.200 of war,
00:34:04.740 as well as
00:34:05.220 instrument of peace,
00:34:06.380 which is the
00:34:06.920 human brain.
00:34:08.140 And so that means
00:34:08.580 we can win wars
00:34:09.840 if we must fight
00:34:11.020 them.
00:34:12.400 And so I think,
00:34:13.200 you know,
00:34:13.580 Secretary Hegseth,
00:34:14.340 for example,
00:34:14.720 a month ago also
00:34:15.500 said, you know,
00:34:16.540 peace through
00:34:16.960 strength.
00:34:17.520 And I think there's
00:34:18.060 a lot of truth to
00:34:18.740 that.
00:34:19.240 But I think also
00:34:20.040 my main argument
00:34:21.740 here is that we
00:34:22.660 can build a more
00:34:23.800 peaceful world
00:34:24.700 through self-knowledge,
00:34:27.500 through knowing
00:34:28.180 ourselves as humans
00:34:29.720 better.
00:34:31.760 So you have this
00:34:32.800 tension between
00:34:33.620 aggression and
00:34:34.680 empathy, right?
00:34:37.240 I happen personally
00:34:39.340 not to believe that
00:34:40.100 mankind is the
00:34:40.860 product of evolution.
00:34:42.340 I think we were
00:34:43.480 created in a
00:34:45.680 straightforward act
00:34:46.480 of God.
00:34:46.840 But put that to
00:34:47.620 the side and we'll
00:34:48.640 proceed in this
00:34:49.300 conversation as if
00:34:51.020 we are the
00:34:51.800 products of
00:34:52.480 evolution.
00:34:52.960 How is it that
00:34:54.380 aggression would
00:34:55.820 appear to have
00:34:56.880 the upper hand
00:34:57.900 between
00:34:59.020 evolution in
00:35:01.500 evolutionary terms?
00:35:03.820 Why does
00:35:04.360 aggression appear to
00:35:05.500 have the upper hand
00:35:06.300 between aggression
00:35:07.320 and empathy?
00:35:08.620 First question.
00:35:09.620 And the second
00:35:10.080 question is looking
00:35:11.200 at your insights.
00:35:12.480 Can you give me
00:35:12.960 some practical
00:35:13.820 pointers as to
00:35:16.080 the contributions
00:35:17.500 your research at
00:35:19.420 the cutting edge
00:35:20.000 of neuroscience
00:35:21.000 science could
00:35:22.160 have in the
00:35:23.240 public policy
00:35:24.140 sphere?
00:35:25.980 Yeah.
00:35:26.500 So the first
00:35:27.400 thing to say is
00:35:27.920 this isn't based
00:35:29.040 on evolution.
00:35:29.700 So my research is
00:35:31.080 to research the
00:35:31.840 brain.
00:35:32.680 I use functional
00:35:33.620 brain imaging,
00:35:34.780 other technologies
00:35:35.800 to understand how
00:35:37.160 humans make 1.00
00:35:37.700 decisions and how
00:35:38.380 that arises in the
00:35:39.240 brain.
00:35:40.280 So it's not based
00:35:41.460 on evolution, it's
00:35:42.140 based on how our
00:35:42.940 brains work.
00:35:43.800 So I don't think
00:35:44.240 it's inconsistent
00:35:44.960 with your sort
00:35:46.460 of philosophical
00:35:47.020 basis.
00:35:50.620 So our brains
00:35:53.600 have many
00:35:54.820 different brain
00:35:56.160 systems in them.
00:35:56.940 It's not just the
00:35:57.860 amygdala and the
00:35:58.440 prefrontal cortex,
00:35:59.000 it's many different
00:35:59.660 brain systems and
00:36:00.600 they create, they're
00:36:02.180 like an orchestra,
00:36:03.500 right?
00:36:03.820 Each of these
00:36:04.400 different brain
00:36:04.900 systems is like a
00:36:05.700 different part of
00:36:06.340 the orchestra.
00:36:06.920 It could be the
00:36:07.740 strings, right?
00:36:08.800 That could be the
00:36:09.720 fine violins that do
00:36:11.320 our most sophisticated
00:36:12.120 planning, for example,
00:36:14.360 or it could be the
00:36:15.160 brass that does, you
00:36:16.680 know, our big
00:36:17.360 emotions like fear
00:36:18.380 and so on.
00:36:18.880 We need all these
00:36:19.860 different parts of
00:36:20.560 our orchestra and
00:36:21.120 they're all part of
00:36:22.140 what makes up the
00:36:24.280 symphony with which
00:36:25.560 we live our life,
00:36:27.180 okay?
00:36:27.920 Now, it's not that
00:36:30.620 we're only built for
00:36:32.600 war because we're
00:36:33.360 built for many other
00:36:34.040 things too, but the
00:36:35.180 key point here is that
00:36:36.360 that is an important
00:36:37.380 part of us and we
00:36:38.460 need to understand
00:36:39.140 that.
00:36:39.880 But as you say,
00:36:41.180 for example,
00:36:42.160 reconciliation is
00:36:42.960 also important.
00:36:43.500 You talk about
00:36:43.740 empathy.
00:36:44.540 So reconciliation is
00:36:45.500 also incredibly
00:36:46.240 human, right?
00:36:47.420 So if you look at
00:36:48.180 Winston Churchill's
00:36:49.160 History of World
00:36:49.640 War II, for
00:36:50.240 example, the
00:36:51.420 moral right at the
00:36:52.680 beginning of that
00:36:53.240 book, a key
00:36:54.500 moral right he
00:36:55.360 puts right at the
00:36:55.880 beginning is in
00:36:56.740 victory, magnanimity.
00:36:59.460 So reconciliation is
00:37:01.340 every bit as human
00:37:02.360 as conflict and we
00:37:03.340 need to understand
00:37:04.060 this sweet, this,
00:37:06.320 you know, we need
00:37:06.980 to understand
00:37:07.480 ourselves in our
00:37:08.180 glorious,
00:37:08.960 glorious, true
00:37:10.780 symphony rather than
00:37:13.280 just one thing or
00:37:14.260 the other thing.
00:37:15.540 Now, how do I use
00:37:16.540 this practically?
00:37:17.500 So, for example,
00:37:18.400 I'll give you three
00:37:18.840 examples.
00:37:19.360 So one thing I've
00:37:20.460 spent a lot of time
00:37:21.360 working on with the
00:37:22.340 Pentagon and in fact
00:37:23.180 the thing that first
00:37:23.880 took me to Washington,
00:37:24.740 D.C.
00:37:25.160 was thinking about
00:37:26.280 nuclear weapons,
00:37:27.340 strategy with nuclear
00:37:28.300 weapons.
00:37:29.160 And what you're trying
00:37:29.740 to do there is,
00:37:30.740 is like whatever the
00:37:32.500 United States does,
00:37:33.600 right, it cannot
00:37:35.160 prevent Russia and 0.98
00:37:37.440 China from 0.76
00:37:39.100 retaliating with
00:37:40.360 nuclear weapons,
00:37:41.540 right?
00:37:41.940 And so what you need
00:37:43.180 to do with nuclear
00:37:44.080 weapons is you need
00:37:44.760 to try and influence
00:37:46.220 how the other side
00:37:47.400 is going to choose
00:37:48.640 to act, deterrence,
00:37:50.260 for example,
00:37:50.760 or controlling
00:37:51.160 escalation.
00:37:52.280 And so what is
00:37:53.040 often useful is
00:37:53.740 insights about how
00:37:55.200 will actions the
00:37:57.140 U.S.
00:37:57.460 might take, how can
00:37:58.380 they enhance the
00:37:59.080 effectiveness of those
00:37:59.860 actions?
00:38:00.440 Things like, for
00:38:01.020 example, using
00:38:01.680 surprise when you want
00:38:03.040 to and not when
00:38:03.940 you don't want to.
00:38:05.360 Another thing that
00:38:06.120 I've worked on is
00:38:07.040 information operations.
00:38:08.040 So how can we defend
00:38:08.940 ourselves against
00:38:09.640 things like adversaries
00:38:12.260 like Russia who are 0.99
00:38:12.940 very skilled at using
00:38:13.820 things like active
00:38:14.720 measures, right?
00:38:15.860 And we know that they
00:38:16.660 do this and they do
00:38:17.460 this in many different
00:38:18.160 countries.
00:38:18.940 I'm not saying this is
00:38:19.500 the most important
00:38:20.160 thing in domestic
00:38:21.220 politics in somewhere
00:38:23.120 like Britain or the
00:38:24.100 United States, but the
00:38:25.320 Russians do do these 1.00
00:38:26.340 things.
00:38:27.000 We need to think about
00:38:27.760 how they do that and
00:38:28.600 how we can potentially
00:38:29.760 defend against those
00:38:30.780 types of activities.
00:38:31.760 And again, the
00:38:32.620 central target of
00:38:34.440 every information
00:38:35.120 operation is the
00:38:36.280 human brain, right?
00:38:37.620 And they will use
00:38:38.540 very sophisticated
00:38:39.660 techniques that look
00:38:41.480 at emotions, that
00:38:42.340 look at how we
00:38:43.820 perceive things, how
00:38:44.540 we misperceive things
00:38:45.480 and so on.
00:38:45.880 So we need to
00:38:46.300 understand that to
00:38:47.020 defend.
00:38:48.180 And then a third
00:38:48.680 thing is AI, right?
00:38:50.460 So I've just finished
00:38:51.360 a big project and we
00:38:52.220 had involved people
00:38:53.320 from the director of
00:38:54.480 DARPA, which are the
00:38:55.420 people who invented
00:38:55.840 the internet, lots of
00:38:56.800 other people, the head
00:38:58.680 of Army Futures
00:38:59.360 Command.
00:38:59.700 And that was
00:39:01.120 about how can we
00:39:01.800 use AI, right, to
00:39:03.320 win wars in the
00:39:04.900 future?
00:39:05.240 Because it's not just
00:39:06.160 technology on its own
00:39:07.160 that wins wars, it's
00:39:08.440 humans using that
00:39:10.080 technology effectively
00:39:11.540 that wins wars.
00:39:12.800 And if we're going to
00:39:13.900 control AI effectively,
00:39:15.520 if we're going to
00:39:15.840 control squads or
00:39:17.420 swarms of robots, and
00:39:19.720 we saw those for the
00:39:20.620 first time used for
00:39:21.740 lethal effect on a
00:39:23.200 battlefield in Ukraine a
00:39:24.360 few weeks ago, that's
00:39:25.820 going to require
00:39:26.340 understanding the
00:39:27.180 human side of the
00:39:29.580 communication with the
00:39:30.440 AI robots, every
00:39:32.440 single bit as much as
00:39:34.140 the robots themselves.
00:39:35.580 And so those are all
00:39:36.140 some practical areas
00:39:37.240 that, you know, I've
00:39:38.260 been involved with the
00:39:39.040 Pentagon over the last
00:39:39.960 decade.
00:39:42.120 There's a phenomenal
00:39:43.140 amount to unpack
00:39:44.760 there.
00:39:45.360 Let's start at the
00:39:46.440 back, the closing
00:39:48.380 part of that.
00:39:49.120 And you mentioned
00:39:49.720 AI.
00:39:50.340 You have said that AI
00:39:53.860 really needs to, if I've
00:39:56.340 got this right, to
00:39:57.360 develop a pre-vortex,
00:40:01.380 basically as part of
00:40:02.800 the drive for
00:40:04.500 consciousness.
00:40:05.500 Tell me how you'd go
00:40:07.200 about doing that.
00:40:09.840 Yeah, so there's a
00:40:12.380 difference between being
00:40:13.620 clever and being wise.
00:40:15.820 So you're probably
00:40:16.320 familiar with the TV
00:40:17.400 program, the Big Bang
00:40:18.520 Theory, you know, the
00:40:19.400 comedy program, and you
00:40:20.300 have these very, very
00:40:20.960 clever guys at Caltech.
00:40:22.300 They're very clever, but
00:40:24.080 they often just get
00:40:24.880 themselves into pickles.
00:40:26.000 They get themselves to
00:40:26.700 mistakes because they
00:40:27.280 missed obvious parts of
00:40:28.700 the big picture, and it
00:40:31.380 leads them down, you
00:40:32.260 know, into getting into
00:40:34.160 all sorts of messes.
00:40:35.220 There's a difference
00:40:35.660 between being clever and
00:40:36.480 being wise.
00:40:38.040 So AI, for example, can
00:40:40.440 often be very clever.
00:40:41.400 So there was a famous
00:40:44.280 example, which was an AI
00:40:45.540 controlled a speedboat, and
00:40:47.960 it had to control this
00:40:48.700 speedboat, and which was
00:40:49.900 travelling down a course,
00:40:51.160 and the aim was to get as
00:40:53.120 fast as possible to the
00:40:54.000 other end.
00:40:54.560 But what the AI realised
00:40:55.800 was that if it just
00:40:56.980 circled around in the
00:40:58.460 middle of the course,
00:40:59.640 knocking things over, it
00:41:02.020 would actually make a
00:41:03.540 superhuman amount of
00:41:05.520 points, right?
00:41:07.180 That was actually the most
00:41:07.980 effective thing to do.
00:41:09.340 But that wasn't the
00:41:10.100 point of the game.
00:41:10.980 That wasn't the purpose
00:41:11.860 of the game.
00:41:12.680 The AI was being very
00:41:13.780 clever, but it wasn't
00:41:15.020 being wise.
00:41:15.720 So what is wisdom?
00:41:17.900 Now, obviously, that's an
00:41:18.740 age-old problem.
00:41:20.000 I'm not saying, you know,
00:41:21.540 I have every answer to
00:41:23.200 what wisdom is.
00:41:24.480 But we're really beginning
00:41:26.740 to understand really
00:41:28.040 important things about the
00:41:29.520 process of wisdom and how
00:41:30.960 the wiser decision-making
00:41:32.280 works in the human brain.
00:41:33.660 So let me give you one key
00:41:35.340 example, which is right
00:41:37.080 here, the frontal pole.
00:41:39.520 So the frontal pole is
00:41:40.760 really important for thinking
00:41:43.180 about thinking, right?
00:41:45.160 And this is what you do.
00:41:46.420 So you can, for example,
00:41:47.700 think about your own
00:41:48.940 thinking.
00:41:49.600 You can make a decision
00:41:50.640 and then you can say,
00:41:51.940 well, how certain am I
00:41:53.000 about that decision?
00:41:54.180 You can set a goal,
00:41:55.780 getting to the end of
00:41:56.540 this course, for example,
00:41:57.920 and then you can say,
00:41:58.560 well, how is this the
00:41:59.480 right goal for me to be
00:42:00.340 pursuing?
00:42:01.160 So what we can do is
00:42:02.740 we can now say,
00:42:05.120 how does the brain do
00:42:07.020 things like self-reflection?
00:42:08.880 How can we enhance that?
00:42:10.820 How can we make that
00:42:11.740 better?
00:42:12.420 How can we think,
00:42:13.180 for example, how humans
00:42:14.420 consider the overarching
00:42:17.220 purposes that they're
00:42:18.520 going for in their lives,
00:42:19.880 for example?
00:42:20.780 And then how can we make
00:42:22.040 wiser decisions?
00:42:23.440 And I think that's what
00:42:24.260 we're going to need to
00:42:24.740 do with AI because AI
00:42:26.600 ultimately follows an
00:42:29.120 objective function.
00:42:30.740 It follows an objective.
00:42:31.940 We set that objective,
00:42:33.500 right?
00:42:34.300 Now, you may not have
00:42:36.000 exactly the same
00:42:37.000 objectives in life as
00:42:38.360 every viewer out there
00:42:39.640 or me or the people who,
00:42:41.380 you know, cameramen,
00:42:42.400 whatever, right?
00:42:43.960 Humans have very
00:42:44.720 different objectives.
00:42:45.780 It's very difficult to
00:42:46.420 know how we're going to
00:42:47.000 set an objective that is
00:42:48.000 the right objective for
00:42:49.060 humanity, for AI.
00:42:51.040 So I don't think we can,
00:42:52.360 I don't think it's
00:42:52.940 possible for us to
00:42:53.900 simply align an AI's
00:42:55.380 objectives to exactly
00:42:56.320 what we want for
00:42:56.940 humanity because that's
00:42:57.700 very difficult.
00:42:58.760 I think what we need to
00:42:59.480 do is we need to, you
00:43:00.300 know, create an AI that
00:43:01.940 can make wiser choices,
00:43:03.320 that can lift its eyes 0.91
00:43:04.520 and see the bigger picture
00:43:05.940 about itself and ask
00:43:07.600 better questions and
00:43:09.660 make wiser, not just
00:43:11.100 cleverer decisions.
00:43:12.480 And I think that's what
00:43:13.120 we're going to have to
00:43:13.540 do with AI.
00:43:15.700 Standby, Dr.
00:43:16.580 Rad, I'm going to come
00:43:17.100 back to you in just two
00:43:18.660 minutes.
00:43:18.980 I gave the number
00:43:20.240 earlier on in the show
00:43:21.820 for Birch Gold.
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00:43:33.280 advice necessary on
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00:44:30.620 slash Bannon.
00:44:33.080 Dr. Nicholas Wright, let's
00:44:34.580 come back to you because
00:44:35.240 we only have a few moments
00:44:37.260 left of the show.
00:44:38.340 And it's absolutely
00:44:38.700 fascinating what you're
00:44:39.580 saying.
00:44:40.200 The necessity to think
00:44:42.900 about thinking is the
00:44:44.220 basic mandate of
00:44:45.100 philosophy, right?
00:44:46.020 For two and a half
00:44:47.260 thousand years, Western
00:44:48.080 philosophy, that's exactly
00:44:49.140 what it is.
00:44:49.600 It's the meta-analysis,
00:44:51.540 using the reflective
00:44:52.960 capacity to analyze the
00:44:55.260 reflective capacity.
00:44:56.680 That would certainly be a
00:44:58.380 sign, wouldn't it, of
00:44:59.640 that AI has established
00:45:02.900 true consciousness if it
00:45:05.080 were able to do that.
00:45:07.160 But one question I have
00:45:08.920 for you is that nearly
00:45:10.320 every culture in one way
00:45:12.180 or another through the
00:45:13.400 course of time has found
00:45:15.180 myths that sanctify war 0.95
00:45:17.420 from the Iliad to Jihad.
00:45:21.800 Do you think that myth-making
00:45:23.100 is a neural necessity, a
00:45:25.840 way to make sense of
00:45:28.200 that fear that the
00:45:30.460 amygdala drives?
00:45:33.580 I think you're entirely
00:45:34.620 correct.
00:45:35.340 So, again, so people
00:45:36.820 overstate this.
00:45:37.980 So it's not like myths
00:45:39.160 everything, but they're
00:45:40.460 one of the important
00:45:41.620 things, right?
00:45:42.520 We have a whole, you
00:45:44.560 know, a whole set of
00:45:45.520 systems in our brain that
00:45:46.600 are all important and
00:45:48.160 our capacity for myths
00:45:50.640 is one of those things.
00:45:51.720 So I'll just give you an
00:45:52.320 example, right?
00:45:53.000 Really important thing.
00:45:54.880 People worry about
00:45:55.700 societies falling apart,
00:45:57.060 American society falling 0.88
00:45:57.940 apart, British society
00:45:59.020 falling apart or
00:45:59.620 whatever.
00:46:00.100 But the remarkable thing
00:46:01.060 isn't that societies
00:46:01.920 fall apart.
00:46:02.740 It's that we can form,
00:46:04.360 humans can form groups
00:46:05.860 of more than a couple
00:46:06.700 of hundred individuals
00:46:07.740 at all because no
00:46:09.740 other primates can.
00:46:11.600 No other primates can
00:46:12.700 form a coherent group
00:46:14.720 of more than a few
00:46:15.400 hundred individuals.
00:46:16.580 And yet we can get to
00:46:17.480 the point of tribes,
00:46:19.160 which is thousands of
00:46:20.480 individuals that can
00:46:21.480 form a coherent group
00:46:22.300 and, you know, up to
00:46:23.280 hundreds of thousands,
00:46:24.620 millions, right?
00:46:25.980 So how do we do that?
00:46:27.560 Absolutely central to that
00:46:28.800 is something that I call
00:46:29.780 social alchemy, right?
00:46:31.980 What we can do is we
00:46:34.280 use, we create humans
00:46:37.000 whose identities,
00:46:38.980 their answers to the
00:46:39.700 question, who am I?
00:46:41.200 Their identities are
00:46:42.360 similar to enough,
00:46:43.520 similar enough to each
00:46:44.620 other that they can work
00:46:46.040 coherently together.
00:46:47.240 And in addition to
00:46:48.640 that, there is a
00:46:50.660 culture, right?
00:46:52.000 And by culture here, I
00:46:52.820 mean the basic idea of
00:46:54.900 how are things done
00:46:55.800 around here?
00:46:57.100 And that culture creates
00:46:59.160 individuals with coherent
00:47:00.620 identities and those
00:47:02.060 identities help create
00:47:03.500 the culture.
00:47:04.380 And that identity culture
00:47:05.860 spiral is central to how
00:47:08.260 humans can form huge
00:47:10.900 groups, right?
00:47:12.020 Which is something, as I
00:47:12.760 said, no other primates
00:47:14.020 can.
00:47:14.340 And in that, our
00:47:15.760 ability to speak, to
00:47:17.720 communicate, to say,
00:47:18.960 this is how you make a
00:47:20.040 flint axe, this is how
00:47:21.560 you ford a river, this is
00:47:23.220 what God might look like
00:47:25.000 or sound like or think
00:47:26.760 like or whatever, that is
00:47:28.460 central to how we are
00:47:30.660 able to create coherent
00:47:32.360 societies and religious
00:47:34.120 or mythological ideas
00:47:35.540 were central to creating
00:47:36.780 those at all times or
00:47:38.480 whereof in human history.
00:47:40.360 That's why we're able to
00:47:41.820 do that and no other
00:47:43.380 primates can.
00:47:44.200 So I think you're
00:47:45.140 right, myths are
00:47:46.100 central, one of the
00:47:47.640 suite of capabilities we
00:47:49.360 have that no other
00:47:50.220 primate has, certainly
00:47:51.320 not as well as us.
00:47:53.200 We literally only have
00:47:54.760 three minutes, but I
00:47:57.280 think your area of
00:47:58.140 study here is absolutely
00:47:59.700 fascinating because
00:48:00.720 you're starting off on
00:48:01.800 the individual basis, on
00:48:03.460 the anatomy of the human
00:48:04.520 brain, and then
00:48:06.580 expanding forward to
00:48:09.420 how all the human
00:48:11.580 exemplars react together
00:48:14.200 and how they share
00:48:15.940 social attributes based
00:48:18.740 on the hardwiring in the
00:48:20.740 brain.
00:48:21.180 Just in terms, because
00:48:22.140 you mentioned them, you
00:48:23.240 mentioned Russia and
00:48:24.500 Ukraine and China
00:48:25.760 earlier on, using the
00:48:28.040 insights of the specific
00:48:29.600 anatomy of the brain,
00:48:30.800 this tension between the
00:48:31.780 amygdala and the
00:48:34.920 prefrontal cortex.
00:48:36.360 So you're basically
00:48:38.860 sort of suggesting that
00:48:40.680 the element of
00:48:42.260 aggression is always
00:48:43.540 going to be there.
00:48:44.180 This is aside from the
00:48:45.020 theological concepts of
00:48:46.500 sin and what have you.
00:48:47.460 On the biological thing,
00:48:48.960 that aggression is
00:48:49.840 always going to be there.
00:48:50.700 It's always going to be
00:48:52.020 there on the social and
00:48:53.200 political level.
00:48:54.660 But as you said at the
00:48:55.620 beginning, what you're
00:48:56.420 trying to do is get
00:48:57.400 from the understanding of
00:48:59.120 knowing thyself to
00:49:00.980 work forward and find a
00:49:03.260 way of understanding that
00:49:04.720 reality and that
00:49:06.020 aggression is always
00:49:06.740 going to be there to
00:49:07.760 find a way to contain
00:49:09.160 it, right?
00:49:11.240 Exactly.
00:49:12.000 If we can understand,
00:49:13.340 for example, how fear
00:49:15.700 works better, then we
00:49:17.100 can control our fears
00:49:18.180 better.
00:49:18.740 If we can understand
00:49:19.900 that, you know, when
00:49:21.680 we feel these social
00:49:23.240 motivations against
00:49:24.060 injustice and that can
00:49:25.080 help us, you know,
00:49:25.920 really fight against
00:49:26.980 things that are bad in
00:49:28.180 the world.
00:49:28.600 And yet, on the other
00:49:29.180 hand, when two groups
00:49:30.200 have too exclusive an
00:49:31.660 idea of justice, then
00:49:34.300 that can lead to a
00:49:34.940 tragedy, right?
00:49:35.800 And you talked about
00:49:36.260 ancient Greece.
00:49:36.700 That was a classic, you
00:49:37.560 know, example of
00:49:38.120 tragedy in ancient
00:49:38.920 Greece, right?
00:49:40.100 Where it's not right
00:49:41.040 versus wrong.
00:49:41.660 It's two rights
00:49:42.560 clashing.
00:49:44.140 And so those are the
00:49:46.600 types of things where
00:49:47.500 if we understand that
00:49:48.640 better, if we understand
00:49:49.500 how human morality
00:49:50.520 works better in the
00:49:51.440 brain, if we can
00:49:52.020 enhance our ability to
00:49:54.300 reflect so we can see
00:49:56.200 ourselves in the world
00:49:58.040 better, right, so that
00:49:59.500 then we can make wiser
00:50:00.280 decisions, if we can do
00:50:01.120 all of the, if we
00:50:01.680 enhance all of these
00:50:02.440 things, which of course
00:50:03.100 we can also do in
00:50:03.740 everyday life too.
00:50:04.780 This is the same brain
00:50:05.600 with which you and I
00:50:06.420 go to the supermarkets
00:50:07.460 or, you know, drive our
00:50:08.940 car or whatever, right?
00:50:10.700 If we can understand
00:50:11.980 ourselves better, then
00:50:13.600 we can hopefully prevent
00:50:16.280 wars from happening.
00:50:17.360 And as I said, if we
00:50:18.060 need to fight a war, and
00:50:20.020 I think we can never get
00:50:21.020 to the point where wars
00:50:21.740 will be completely
00:50:22.340 impossible, then, you
00:50:25.060 know, the reason why
00:50:26.080 the Pentagon is
00:50:26.740 interested in what I
00:50:27.340 have to say and why I
00:50:28.880 feel that I have really
00:50:30.560 gained a huge amount of
00:50:31.660 value working with them
00:50:32.560 is that, you know, we
00:50:34.240 can work out how to
00:50:35.140 fight those wars better
00:50:36.200 if we need to.
00:50:37.860 And both those things
00:50:38.820 are important.
00:50:39.400 Why we fight and why
00:50:40.620 we win wars.
00:50:42.960 Dr. Wright, could you
00:50:44.340 just tell us where
00:50:45.100 people can go to get
00:50:47.180 that book that you've
00:50:48.520 published, Warhead, how
00:50:50.100 the brain shapes war and
00:50:51.780 the war shapes brain?
00:50:53.280 And where do people go
00:50:54.240 to keep up with your
00:50:55.680 research on social media?
00:50:57.420 Yeah, so the books in
00:51:00.620 any bookshop, you can
00:51:01.800 actually listen to me
00:51:02.720 talking on the audio
00:51:04.440 book, wherever you get
00:51:05.340 your audio books, and
00:51:07.320 on social media, Nicholas
00:51:09.780 D. Wright on X, and
00:51:13.580 I'm on LinkedIn and so
00:51:16.720 on.
00:51:17.140 And I would love to speak
00:51:18.380 to people if you want to
00:51:19.040 get in contact.
00:51:19.700 I would love to discuss
00:51:20.780 these issues with people.
00:51:23.540 Dr. Nicholas Wright, I'm
00:51:24.640 very grateful for you
00:51:25.480 coming on.
00:51:25.800 And I'm specifically
00:51:26.720 grateful that you were
00:51:27.940 able to handle these
00:51:29.020 extremely complex terms
00:51:31.280 in a way that I, as a
00:51:32.580 non-specialist, can
00:51:33.800 understand.
00:51:34.420 But it was very
00:51:35.160 instructive.
00:51:35.860 Thank you for that.
00:51:36.820 Come on again at some
00:51:39.000 point in the future for
00:51:41.280 a further elucidation.
00:51:43.660 Folks, that's all we have
00:51:44.600 time for today.
00:51:45.480 Thanks to Kyle and the
00:51:46.780 great team at Real
00:51:47.580 America's Voice in
00:51:48.880 Denver.
00:51:49.340 And thank you to
00:51:50.240 Vittorio Franco for
00:51:51.740 putting this show
00:51:52.560 together.
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