Bannon's War Room - October 31, 2025


WarRoom Battleground EP 882： Harnwell Interviews An Advocate Of Christian Theocracy And A Neuroscientist Specialising In War


Episode Stats

Length

53 minutes

Words per Minute

156.61244

Word Count

8,363

Sentence Count

500

Misogynist Sentences

9

Hate Speech Sentences

18


Summary

Pastor Doug Wilson joins Steve and the War Room posse to talk about what it means to be a Christian nationalist and theocratic state, and what it looks like to live under the theocratic theism of the Christian nationalist movement.


Transcript

00:00:00.000 This is the primal scream of a dying regime.
00:00:07.700 Pray for our enemies, because we're going medieval on these people.
00:00:12.940 I got a free shot at all these networks lying about the people.
00:00:17.200 The people have had a belly full of it.
00:00:19.120 I know you don't like hearing that.
00:00:20.540 I know you try to do everything in the world to stop that,
00:00:22.300 but you're not going to stop it.
00:00:23.240 It's going to happen.
00:00:24.500 And where do people like that go to share the big lie?
00:00:27.900 Mega Media.
00:00:28.800 I wish in my soul, I wish that any of these people had a conscience.
00:00:34.680 Ask yourself, what is my task and what is my purpose?
00:00:38.440 If that answer is to save my country, this country will be saved.
00:00:44.820 War Room. Here's your host, Stephen K. Bannon.
00:00:54.260 Good evening, Harnwell here at the helm on Steve Bannon's War Room.
00:00:58.060 We've got a great show for you over the next hour.
00:01:00.920 In fact, we're talking to who many people consider to be the honorary chaplain of the Christian nationalist movement,
00:01:09.140 Pastor Doug Wilson.
00:01:11.360 Pastor Wilson, many thanks indeed for coming on to the show.
00:01:15.380 Folks might know you somewhat in the press as being the lightning rod from liberals and progressives who believe you want to,
00:01:29.020 well, with some justice, want to restore a theocratic state to fully submit the United States to the glories that it once was,
00:01:39.640 which was a nation under God, that is under God's holy law.
00:01:44.220 This is something that I think is going to be meat and drink to the War Room audience.
00:01:49.320 Before I hand over to you, though, I've noticed that you have said that many people have said that if you get your way,
00:01:58.760 many people are listening to you, many people in the White House, many people in MAGA are listening to you,
00:02:05.580 you are an increasingly important voice in this movement.
00:02:08.960 But the accusation has been made that if Doug Wilson gets his way,
00:02:14.560 then women are going to have to be put in the red robes with the white bonnets.
00:02:18.440 You know, it's going to be, it's going to be pure handmade, handmade tale territory.
00:02:26.020 Is that a reasonable criticism?
00:02:29.080 Well, last time I was in D.C. preaching at our church plant there,
00:02:32.680 I actually talked to a couple of women in red dresses.
00:02:35.800 They were actually there.
00:02:38.600 Now, of course, I think they were paid to be there by somebody else.
00:02:41.720 But yeah, it's the whole idea.
00:02:45.440 Were they prepping for the future?
00:02:49.560 Yeah, they were in training, apparently.
00:02:55.600 This is a scare tactic thing.
00:03:00.840 It's scare tactics, right?
00:03:01.880 It's scare tactics, of course it is.
00:03:03.860 That said, I know many people will be slightly disappointed
00:03:07.120 because that's exactly what they're hoping to see.
00:03:10.480 You're clearly on the liberal progressive wing of Christian nationalism.
00:03:13.480 Nationalism just shows that we interview.
00:03:16.540 It's a broad church on the war room.
00:03:19.080 Seriously, though, tell us, the war room posse,
00:03:22.400 tell us more structurally about your thought here.
00:03:25.280 What does it mean to reestablish America as a nation under God?
00:03:29.940 And what does theocracy and theocratic state,
00:03:32.880 you have described yourself as a theocrat,
00:03:35.700 what does this mean in Doug Wilson's vocabulary?
00:03:39.180 Yeah, what it means is that is the recognition that the secular project,
00:03:46.060 the secular liberalism project has failed.
00:03:50.000 That is the claim that we can govern ourselves without reference to God.
00:03:55.740 We don't need a transcendent anchor to keep our thoughts coherent.
00:04:02.220 Such is the claim.
00:04:05.200 But after a generation or more of that,
00:04:08.060 we've gotten to the point where we don't know what a woman is.
00:04:11.840 We have someone sitting on the Supreme Court who doesn't know what a woman is.
00:04:15.840 But if you don't know what a woman is, you don't know what a human being is.
00:04:19.080 And if you don't know what a human being is, you don't know what human rights are.
00:04:22.760 And if you don't know what human rights are,
00:04:24.580 what are you doing on the Supreme Court of the United States?
00:04:26.880 So we've got the sexual revolution and the tranny insanity and kids dressing up like furries.
00:04:37.320 That basically, this is what happens when you say,
00:04:40.500 we don't need God.
00:04:41.340 All we need is science.
00:04:42.820 All we need is reason.
00:04:44.260 All we need is enlightened, liberal thought.
00:04:47.200 Well, everything's coming apart in our hands.
00:04:50.200 Basically, the recognition is that we need Christ.
00:04:55.420 It's either, as I'm fond of saying, it's either Christ or chaos.
00:04:59.360 And you just need to look around to see the chaos.
00:05:03.720 Basically, the whole thing is coming apart in our hands.
00:05:06.800 And so consequently, I think we need to cry out to the Lord.
00:05:09.440 We need to say, God, we have painted ourselves into a very bad corner.
00:05:15.800 Well, many people will say amen to that.
00:05:18.400 And it's clear, except from a Christian perspective,
00:05:20.820 that Christ needs to be the center of our social life,
00:05:24.940 of our political life, of everything.
00:05:27.600 Right.
00:05:27.860 Is there a tension?
00:05:29.040 Is there a tension?
00:05:29.880 But, you know, I'm going to ask you whether there's a tension there
00:05:32.920 between having the sovereignty of Christ
00:05:36.220 and a nation where the sovereignty, let's say,
00:05:39.900 belongs either depending on your interpretation to the people
00:05:43.260 or to the Constitution.
00:05:46.200 Tell me something about the tension there.
00:05:48.620 And also, because I have to ask you this,
00:05:50.880 what the role for non-Christians and religious minorities will be.
00:05:56.080 But more substantially than that, those two points,
00:05:58.440 tell me, because everyone who follows this show will agree
00:06:01.600 to what you said.
00:06:02.560 It's either Christ or chaos.
00:06:04.000 But how does Doug Wilson's philosophy differ
00:06:08.480 from the Common or Garden evangelical viewpoint?
00:06:12.920 Why are liberals so terrified of you?
00:06:17.220 What's the theocratic element here behind your thought
00:06:21.340 that is really driving them crazy right now?
00:06:24.680 The theocratic element is our recognition that also,
00:06:29.060 I'm not arguing for us to become a theocracy.
00:06:31.800 We are a theocracy right now.
00:06:35.080 All societies are theocratic.
00:06:37.640 The only thing that distinguishes them is who the God is.
00:06:41.520 Every social order has a God of the system.
00:06:45.780 So in a democracy, a pure democracy,
00:06:49.640 demos, the people, would be the God of the system.
00:06:53.500 The God of the system is the one past which
00:06:56.260 there is no further appeal.
00:06:58.080 Now, I believe that since all societies
00:07:01.780 are inescapably theocratic,
00:07:04.120 and the only question is who's Theo,
00:07:06.980 that theos, that God, that deity,
00:07:10.120 should be the true one, should be the true God.
00:07:12.680 And of course, as a Christian,
00:07:14.000 I believe the Christian God is the true and living God.
00:07:17.000 So that's the first thing.
00:07:18.380 The second thing is,
00:07:19.900 just touching on religious minorities
00:07:22.180 and people who don't agree,
00:07:23.440 the heritage of the West that we're trying to preserve,
00:07:27.880 that we're fighting to preserve,
00:07:29.560 is the heritage that invented liberty of conscience.
00:07:34.400 All right?
00:07:34.600 That's our baby.
00:07:35.880 That's our legacy.
00:07:37.200 That's what we did.
00:07:38.600 It is the left that denies the right of personal conscience.
00:07:43.360 And so consequently,
00:07:44.420 if we structured our laws in accordance with Scripture,
00:07:48.060 if we recognize the God of the Bible,
00:07:51.060 the God of the Bible tells us
00:07:52.620 that we are not to promulgate
00:07:55.600 our religious convictions by force.
00:07:58.540 All right?
00:07:58.760 We can, our laws that require force,
00:08:02.160 laws against murder and rape and so on,
00:08:04.360 need to have a transcendental foundation.
00:08:06.920 But that doesn't mean that you get to prosecute sins
00:08:10.460 as though they were crimes.
00:08:12.160 So in Christian theology,
00:08:14.840 there's a distinction between a sin and a crime.
00:08:17.840 I believe that crimes ought to be biblically defined
00:08:20.700 and we ought to leave a vast swath of sins alone.
00:08:25.840 So I don't want to establish a covetousness police, right?
00:08:31.700 Covetousness is a sin and it's a very serious sin.
00:08:34.600 It's in the Ten Commandments.
00:08:35.800 But I don't want covetousness police.
00:08:38.240 How do you choose?
00:08:43.720 Why not?
00:08:44.360 Why don't you want covetousness police?
00:08:46.500 Why not go along the Persian route,
00:08:50.600 the Iranian route,
00:08:52.280 and have basically sin police?
00:08:55.400 How do you choose which of the commandments
00:08:57.540 you're going to enforce
00:08:58.580 and which you're not going to enforce?
00:09:01.120 Yeah.
00:09:01.600 So the answer to that would be Bible study.
00:09:04.060 So for example,
00:09:04.740 if you read the Bible carefully,
00:09:06.060 there are certain things that the Bible prohibits
00:09:08.860 and which the Bible attaches a civil penalty to.
00:09:13.520 There are other things that the Bible prohibits,
00:09:16.060 but there's no civil penalty attached to it at all.
00:09:19.560 And so in my thinking,
00:09:21.860 I call myself a theocrat,
00:09:23.140 but also a theocratic libertarian.
00:09:25.460 I believe that in the vast swath of human endeavor,
00:09:28.840 the government ought to simply leave us alone.
00:09:30.980 And if the Bible doesn't,
00:09:34.400 and so for me,
00:09:35.540 coercion is a big deal.
00:09:37.420 And so if the state is going to coerce me on some issue,
00:09:41.240 I want them to have scriptural foundation for doing it.
00:09:45.180 So rape and murder and theft
00:09:47.560 and those sorts of things
00:09:48.680 are things that we find in the Bible prohibited as sins,
00:09:52.560 but also taught in the Bible as crimes,
00:09:55.860 treated as crimes.
00:09:56.940 But there are things that are clearly sinful,
00:10:00.920 like envy, right?
00:10:02.900 You've got envy in your heart.
00:10:04.340 But the civil magistrate is not competent
00:10:07.320 to weigh whether or not I'm envious.
00:10:11.100 We leave that to God at the last day.
00:10:13.480 And the Bible never assigns a civil penalty
00:10:16.480 for sins like envy or jealousy or hatred
00:10:21.540 or, you know, things like that.
00:10:23.400 As long as you don't take steps to act on your hatred
00:10:28.340 via murder,
00:10:29.660 then the state leaves you alone.
00:10:32.580 And so this is the thing
00:10:34.860 that a lot of people would be surprised by.
00:10:37.440 Under a theocratic libertarian order,
00:10:40.720 the average citizen would have a great deal more freedom
00:10:44.180 than he currently has.
00:10:45.800 We're not we're not ushering in a reformed despotic regime
00:10:52.020 where reformed clergymen with weird beards
00:10:54.920 are telling you or orchestrating every detail of your life.
00:11:00.080 We have that now, right?
00:11:02.280 We have that now.
00:11:03.240 They they tell me that I have to sort my garbage now.
00:11:06.780 They tell me what light bulbs I get to use now.
00:11:10.280 They tell me that I have to put a brick
00:11:12.620 in the tank of my toilet now.
00:11:14.860 You know, they're regulating every last detail of life now.
00:11:20.080 And and we're we want to get away from that.
00:11:23.980 Here in Italy, the government tells you
00:11:25.940 when you're allowed to turn your central heating on or off.
00:11:29.160 You know, George III, King George III
00:11:32.040 would blush with shame
00:11:33.980 if he saw what was going on in America right now,
00:11:38.480 that the long train of abuses
00:11:40.140 that there was the legitimate cause
00:11:42.700 for the revolutionaries to throw off the English crown
00:11:46.060 was minuscule compared to the size and scope
00:11:49.900 of the U.S. government today.
00:11:53.200 So, you know, it's not often you hear these terms.
00:11:57.420 Theocracy and libertarian welded together
00:12:00.360 in the same philosophy.
00:12:02.380 But it would make sense.
00:12:03.640 It's coherent what you're saying.
00:12:04.560 If you think about the Jews at the time of, I don't know,
00:12:07.540 the time of the New Testament, the first century.
00:12:12.200 Yeah.
00:12:12.580 I mean, there's the code of law
00:12:15.320 was effectively the Bible, the Old Testament.
00:12:18.200 And that was massively less invasive
00:12:23.500 than the full gamut of local, state, and federal government today.
00:12:28.160 Just, I have to go to a break in two minutes,
00:12:31.840 but here's a question for you
00:12:33.300 when you're talking about bringing these two things,
00:12:35.980 the state and religion, faith, together again,
00:12:40.060 bringing them back together.
00:12:42.140 The founding fathers were quite concerned
00:12:45.180 about the possibility of state power
00:12:48.280 to pollute the integrity of the Christian faith.
00:12:53.440 And that was the primary motive behind the concept, right,
00:12:56.820 of the separation of church and state.
00:13:00.280 It wasn't remotely what the secularists had in mind.
00:13:03.000 They really did.
00:13:03.920 They wanted a Christian nation,
00:13:05.240 but they didn't want the polluting political powers
00:13:08.260 to corrupt the church as the crown had done
00:13:11.380 with the established Church of England.
00:13:13.660 Right. Exactly.
00:13:15.460 Which is the case that you see.
00:13:16.900 But tell me, if you're bringing these two forces together,
00:13:19.980 how do you keep the integrity of the Christian faith
00:13:23.720 from being polluted by politicians, by the state?
00:13:29.400 I would say that I support wholeheartedly
00:13:31.960 the separation of church and state,
00:13:34.120 but that's different than the separation of morality and state.
00:13:37.520 A church is an ecclesiastical government,
00:13:41.980 and the founders did not want a national church
00:13:44.580 of the United States.
00:13:46.100 There were soft establishments at the state level,
00:13:48.920 and in three cases, hard establishments at the state level.
00:13:52.100 And I don't even think they're a good idea there, right?
00:13:55.160 I'm in favor of a soft establishment
00:13:57.200 where the state simply says the Christian faith is true,
00:14:00.500 but doesn't support any particular denomination with tax money.
00:14:04.900 That's the kiss of death for that denomination,
00:14:08.240 and it's just not good.
00:14:09.840 In Federalist 48, it says that power is of an encroaching nature,
00:14:15.680 and the Constitution is a work of theological genius
00:14:19.020 because they spread the power as thinly as possible
00:14:22.060 at the national and state levels,
00:14:24.780 and then with the separation of powers.
00:14:27.000 That's profoundly Christian.
00:14:30.740 Just hold on, Pastor Wilson.
00:14:33.820 I'm going to come back to you in just two minutes
00:14:36.700 to explore these themes further.
00:14:39.240 When inflation jumps,
00:14:40.620 when you hear the national debt is over $38 trillion,
00:14:44.920 as it is now,
00:14:45.640 it's just increased by $1 trillion,
00:14:47.540 do you ever think maybe now would be a good time
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00:15:21.000 Text Bannon, B-A-N-N-O-N,
00:15:24.040 to 989898.
00:15:26.500 Again, that's Bannon to 989898.
00:15:31.180 Back to Pastor Wilson.
00:15:33.000 So many people listening would be slightly surprised
00:15:35.760 because the overwhelming cultural force
00:15:38.560 is obviously the secularist establishment.
00:15:40.680 To find out that at the time of the establishment
00:15:47.000 of the federal government,
00:15:49.020 there were states that actually had,
00:15:52.000 individually, on an individual basis,
00:15:55.900 a degree of establishment,
00:15:57.060 what you call soft establishment.
00:15:59.380 But the point about the Constitution
00:16:01.680 is that no force, no legal force,
00:16:05.020 would try to impose that across the whole of the nation.
00:16:07.440 Right.
00:16:08.720 The only entity that could violate the First Amendment
00:16:11.260 is Congress.
00:16:13.060 Congress shall make no law
00:16:14.420 concerning the establishment of religion.
00:16:17.180 But when the Constitution was ratified,
00:16:20.640 Massachusetts, Connecticut, and New Hampshire
00:16:22.780 all had established state churches
00:16:25.940 at the state level.
00:16:27.640 And then the 14th state to come in,
00:16:30.300 Vermont,
00:16:31.180 came into the Union
00:16:32.620 with an established state church.
00:16:35.240 That was hard establishment.
00:16:36.920 South Carolina didn't have a connection
00:16:39.320 to any denomination,
00:16:40.820 but they simply said
00:16:41.880 the Protestant religion
00:16:42.980 is the faith of the state.
00:16:45.620 Right.
00:16:45.820 They simply confessed
00:16:47.420 that there was a transcendental grounding.
00:16:49.680 Now, I don't think
00:16:50.760 that hard establishment
00:16:52.620 at the state level
00:16:53.520 is a good idea either.
00:16:55.180 I'm in favor of separation
00:16:56.940 church and state everywhere.
00:16:58.280 But I can say
00:16:59.460 that it's not an unconstitutional idea.
00:17:02.060 At the founding,
00:17:04.220 the majority of the states
00:17:06.140 had a formal relationship
00:17:08.340 with the Christian faith,
00:17:10.020 overwhelmingly so.
00:17:11.600 And I simply want to return to that.
00:17:14.540 One of the striking things
00:17:15.700 is that in 1892,
00:17:17.900 there was a Supreme Court decision,
00:17:21.160 and this was over a century
00:17:22.780 after the founding.
00:17:24.280 In 1892,
00:17:25.580 there's a Supreme Court decision
00:17:27.000 called Holy Trinity
00:17:28.200 versus the United States,
00:17:29.840 which is a funny name
00:17:32.060 for this court case.
00:17:33.540 Holy Trinity was a church
00:17:34.880 in New York.
00:17:36.360 And so there was,
00:17:41.200 they had hired a British minister
00:17:42.740 and had paid his passage over,
00:17:45.420 and that was against the law,
00:17:47.120 and some zealous prosecutor
00:17:48.320 went after them.
00:17:49.700 The Supreme Court decided
00:17:51.440 in favor of the church
00:17:52.340 in a common sense way.
00:17:54.460 Okay, that's not it.
00:17:55.640 But then Justice Brewer said,
00:17:57.960 while we're on the subject,
00:17:58.980 let us remind you
00:18:00.980 that the United States
00:18:02.080 is a Christian nation
00:18:03.280 and has been since its founding.
00:18:06.060 And then Justice Brewer
00:18:07.140 went through the history
00:18:08.420 of the United States
00:18:09.200 and showed over and over
00:18:10.360 and over again
00:18:11.000 how we were a Christian nation.
00:18:13.080 Now, that was in 1892.
00:18:15.580 All right?
00:18:16.000 Now, that means that
00:18:17.280 when I was born, 1953,
00:18:19.640 the day of my birth
00:18:21.040 was closer to that
00:18:22.540 Supreme Court decision
00:18:23.880 than the day of my birth
00:18:25.300 was to our conversation today.
00:18:27.640 All right?
00:18:28.520 It wasn't that long ago.
00:18:30.540 So we were
00:18:32.280 and understood ourselves
00:18:33.620 to be a Christian nation.
00:18:35.520 And this was common knowledge
00:18:39.000 up until the Second World War.
00:18:41.740 And after the Second World War,
00:18:43.960 federal courts started
00:18:45.240 quietly insinuating
00:18:47.420 that the wall of separation
00:18:49.720 that Jefferson referred to
00:18:51.100 in a private letter
00:18:51.900 was somehow the way it was
00:18:53.700 at the founding,
00:18:54.760 the separation of church and state.
00:18:56.320 Well, yes, separation of church and state,
00:18:58.480 but that doesn't mean
00:19:00.240 separation of righteousness and state
00:19:02.040 or morality and state.
00:19:03.520 Who in their right mind
00:19:04.620 would say,
00:19:05.360 I want to be governed by people
00:19:06.860 who have absolutely
00:19:08.280 no connection to morality?
00:19:12.420 That's insane.
00:19:13.620 Right?
00:19:14.540 This is why we have experts
00:19:17.280 like you on this show.
00:19:19.220 And I thought I'd read
00:19:20.380 quite widely about
00:19:21.740 some of these things.
00:19:22.940 And you're absolutely right
00:19:25.760 to point out
00:19:26.800 that the prohibition
00:19:28.200 is on Congress here,
00:19:30.700 on establishment, right?
00:19:33.540 Now, you said
00:19:34.660 that you are against
00:19:36.800 the establishment
00:19:37.900 of a formal church.
00:19:40.720 But what you do want
00:19:41.800 is to see Christianity
00:19:43.360 have full space
00:19:45.100 in the public square.
00:19:46.900 And people to publicly confess,
00:19:48.760 obviously,
00:19:49.140 that they are inspired
00:19:50.440 by Jesus Christ.
00:19:52.360 But let me ask you
00:19:53.400 this question, right?
00:19:55.260 Let me ask you
00:19:55.900 this question.
00:19:57.380 Could President Trump,
00:19:58.680 via executive order,
00:20:01.460 establish,
00:20:01.960 could he do,
00:20:06.000 could he push out
00:20:06.780 an EO
00:20:07.280 that would broadly
00:20:08.040 adopt
00:20:08.820 what you're wanting here?
00:20:11.720 Because he's obviously,
00:20:13.400 in and of himself,
00:20:14.120 he's one of the three branches
00:20:15.260 of government, right?
00:20:16.540 He's not Congress.
00:20:17.700 He's not the Supreme Court.
00:20:18.600 He's the president.
00:20:19.740 Could he do that?
00:20:20.820 Would that be constitutional
00:20:22.020 for you?
00:20:22.900 Is that something
00:20:23.380 that you would urge
00:20:24.640 him to consider,
00:20:26.300 to establish Christianity
00:20:27.820 formally
00:20:28.540 as the religious
00:20:30.800 and cultural basis
00:20:32.220 of the United States?
00:20:34.740 I don't know
00:20:35.920 that an executive order
00:20:37.280 would be the way to do it.
00:20:38.620 I would prefer,
00:20:39.420 just aside from
00:20:40.440 a constitutional amendment,
00:20:42.820 there are things
00:20:43.600 that I think we could do,
00:20:44.940 like a joint proclamation
00:20:46.820 of Congress.
00:20:48.280 So all Congress has to do
00:20:50.220 is pass a resolution
00:20:51.680 saying that it is
00:20:53.520 our conviction
00:20:54.140 and it is the opinion
00:20:55.440 of the Senate
00:20:56.700 and the House
00:20:57.260 that Jesus rose
00:20:58.480 from the dead
00:20:59.120 and have the president
00:21:01.920 sign it.
00:21:02.640 That would keep
00:21:03.480 the liberals busy
00:21:05.220 for a while
00:21:05.780 because you're not
00:21:07.520 doing anything
00:21:11.420 that requires
00:21:13.660 anything of anybody,
00:21:14.980 but you're simply
00:21:15.780 testifying.
00:21:17.820 Yeah.
00:21:18.180 I think that mirrors
00:21:19.460 the Polish situation
00:21:20.840 and the Irish Constitution
00:21:23.260 which takes its inspiration
00:21:25.220 from the Holy Trinity.
00:21:27.260 However,
00:21:28.500 to stay on this point,
00:21:30.660 to stay on this point,
00:21:31.380 obviously,
00:21:32.260 obviously,
00:21:33.220 some kind of law
00:21:34.880 passed by Congress
00:21:36.620 would be,
00:21:37.320 or resolution
00:21:37.840 passed by Congress,
00:21:38.880 would be the most,
00:21:40.180 would be the most,
00:21:42.700 permanent way.
00:21:43.660 However,
00:21:44.440 circumventing the fact
00:21:45.620 that Congress
00:21:46.320 shall establish
00:21:48.240 no religion,
00:21:49.420 why,
00:21:50.940 as a first step
00:21:51.860 before you get
00:21:53.480 your majorities
00:21:54.280 in both houses
00:21:55.600 of Congress,
00:21:56.580 why not push
00:21:58.060 the president
00:21:58.880 to push out
00:22:01.520 an EO
00:22:02.200 adopting most
00:22:04.600 of what you want
00:22:07.120 to achieve?
00:22:08.520 Because he's not
00:22:08.960 constitutionally prohibited,
00:22:10.080 is he?
00:22:10.600 He's not Congress.
00:22:11.220 No,
00:22:11.440 he isn't.
00:22:12.340 An executive order
00:22:13.580 could be something like,
00:22:15.560 I am directing
00:22:16.500 all the offices
00:22:18.700 in the executive branch
00:22:20.120 to celebrate Christmas
00:22:21.640 and the birth
00:22:23.520 of our Lord Jesus Christ.
00:22:24.680 He could,
00:22:25.860 but his executive orders
00:22:27.360 have to be directed
00:22:28.740 to entities
00:22:30.240 he has actual authority
00:22:31.560 over
00:22:31.940 to tell them
00:22:33.080 to do something.
00:22:34.540 Right?
00:22:35.320 So,
00:22:36.200 I would be in favor
00:22:37.500 of something like that.
00:22:39.940 They can acknowledge
00:22:41.020 that Jesus Christ
00:22:41.920 is the Son of God
00:22:42.900 and Savior.
00:22:44.360 They can acknowledge
00:22:45.260 that Jesus Christ
00:22:47.600 was born
00:22:48.100 for the salvation
00:22:48.780 of man,
00:22:49.320 right?
00:22:49.980 That would be
00:22:50.460 a phenomenal,
00:22:51.840 right?
00:22:52.180 That would be
00:22:52.680 an absolutely
00:22:53.600 phenomenal maneuver.
00:22:56.520 Right.
00:22:57.400 Yes.
00:22:58.320 And it would be
00:22:58.760 pretty festive
00:22:59.300 for a couple of months
00:23:00.200 afterwards.
00:23:00.460 And it would keep
00:23:01.000 the liberals busy.
00:23:03.820 as you said.
00:23:05.740 Tell me a bit,
00:23:07.020 because we've only got
00:23:07.780 two minutes left now,
00:23:08.860 tell me a bit
00:23:09.820 about your book
00:23:10.860 that the frequently
00:23:11.620 shouted questions
00:23:13.260 about Christian nationalism.
00:23:15.880 Yeah,
00:23:16.440 a few years ago,
00:23:17.440 our publishing house
00:23:18.560 here,
00:23:18.840 Canon Press,
00:23:19.860 published Stephen Wolf's book,
00:23:21.440 The Case for Christian Nationalism.
00:23:23.340 And then shortly after that,
00:23:24.680 I published a book,
00:23:26.000 Mere Christendom,
00:23:27.220 and arguing for the basics
00:23:28.940 of this whole approach.
00:23:31.280 On my blog
00:23:32.260 and in other places,
00:23:33.100 there were a lot
00:23:34.560 of questions
00:23:35.420 and accusations
00:23:36.560 and things thrown at us.
00:23:38.460 And I spent a lot of time
00:23:39.680 answering these FAQs
00:23:41.680 on my blog.
00:23:42.580 And then I realized
00:23:43.400 I'd written a lot
00:23:44.680 answering these questions.
00:23:46.880 And so we edited
00:23:47.840 the questions
00:23:48.520 and assembled them
00:23:49.380 into the book,
00:23:50.540 frequently shouted questions
00:23:52.240 on Christian nationalism.
00:23:53.780 And they address
00:23:54.920 all the common,
00:23:56.280 what about this?
00:23:57.000 What about that?
00:23:57.700 What about imposing morality?
00:24:00.760 What about separation
00:24:01.540 and church and state?
00:24:02.780 What about,
00:24:03.340 you know,
00:24:03.800 so on.
00:24:04.480 And so these are,
00:24:05.660 these FAQs
00:24:06.780 are the sorts of things
00:24:07.940 that your worried
00:24:09.360 uncle or aunt
00:24:10.440 might be asking you about.
00:24:12.940 And it's a great resource
00:24:14.080 for answering those questions.
00:24:16.880 So it's something
00:24:17.900 to consider about
00:24:18.820 for Christmas
00:24:19.380 and Thanksgiving
00:24:20.120 that are coming up.
00:24:22.680 Tell me about the reaction
00:24:23.700 that the book has had.
00:24:24.520 I know that,
00:24:24.860 I know that Tucker Carlson
00:24:26.040 has said
00:24:26.560 that you are
00:24:28.140 the Christian nationalist
00:24:29.240 they warned you about.
00:24:31.060 Tell me about the reaction
00:24:31.840 of the book more generally.
00:24:33.160 Is this something
00:24:34.000 that really gets
00:24:35.200 the libs on edge?
00:24:37.320 It really does.
00:24:38.860 You know,
00:24:39.200 I'm a pastor
00:24:39.860 in the panhandle
00:24:40.800 of North Idaho.
00:24:42.520 I don't have
00:24:43.700 enormous connections
00:24:45.000 and that sort of thing.
00:24:46.740 I'm a writer
00:24:47.560 and a preacher.
00:24:48.840 But in recent months,
00:24:50.640 I've been interviewed
00:24:51.360 by the New York Times
00:24:52.340 and the Wall Street Journal
00:24:53.740 and Politico
00:24:55.120 and the Associated Press
00:24:56.740 and CNN,
00:24:58.680 they are really worried
00:25:00.640 about this.
00:25:02.380 And I think
00:25:03.000 they're worried about it
00:25:03.820 because their project
00:25:05.540 has collapsed
00:25:06.740 and is not capable,
00:25:11.020 therefore,
00:25:11.420 of mounting
00:25:11.940 the kind of resistance
00:25:13.480 that they wish they could.
00:25:17.820 If people wanted
00:25:19.040 to learn more
00:25:20.060 about how to weld
00:25:21.620 these two philosophies together,
00:25:24.460 the libertarianism
00:25:25.460 and the theocratic together,
00:25:28.380 obviously,
00:25:28.880 they can go to you
00:25:29.760 on social media.
00:25:30.720 In fact,
00:25:31.040 why don't we just quickly
00:25:32.280 now recite
00:25:33.100 your social media?
00:25:34.200 But I'll also ask you
00:25:35.400 where else they might go.
00:25:36.940 Where do people go
00:25:37.640 on social media
00:25:38.300 to keep up with you?
00:25:39.960 Okay,
00:25:40.560 on X,
00:25:41.340 it would be
00:25:43.020 at Douglas Wills,
00:25:44.880 D-O-U-G-L-A-S-W-I-L-S,
00:25:48.560 Douglas Wills.
00:25:49.720 And then my blog
00:25:50.880 is dougwills.com
00:25:52.440 and it's called
00:25:53.580 Blog and May Blog.
00:25:55.200 And pretty much
00:25:56.060 everything I'm involved with
00:25:57.240 is somewhere there
00:25:58.380 on the front page
00:25:59.160 of my blog.
00:26:01.440 Okay,
00:26:02.040 so look,
00:26:02.520 in the final 30 seconds,
00:26:04.340 just tell me
00:26:04.900 some of the key sources
00:26:06.460 that you have found useful.
00:26:08.320 If people have listened
00:26:09.120 to this,
00:26:09.600 they'll get your books,
00:26:10.980 they'll follow you on Twitter
00:26:12.100 and they'll start reading.
00:26:13.040 Just give,
00:26:13.800 where can people go
00:26:14.680 to understand more?
00:26:15.920 Because it's a very rare thing
00:26:17.280 to hear someone talk,
00:26:18.320 to say,
00:26:18.900 I am a theocratic libertarian.
00:26:21.380 What else can you
00:26:22.640 point them towards?
00:26:23.920 I would mention
00:26:24.500 two books published
00:26:25.340 by Canon Press,
00:26:26.300 our publishing house.
00:26:27.880 One is
00:26:28.520 Vindicii Contra Tyrannos,
00:26:30.980 a book from the 16th century,
00:26:33.240 A Vindication Against Tyrants.
00:26:35.280 It's just a great,
00:26:36.560 great book.
00:26:37.260 And then a history
00:26:38.060 of Christian resistance
00:26:39.200 called Slaying Leviathan
00:26:41.000 by Glenn Sunshine.
00:26:44.060 That's perfect.
00:26:45.320 Pastor Douglas Wilson,
00:26:46.560 very,
00:26:46.940 very grateful
00:26:47.480 that we've been able
00:26:48.220 to get you on the show.
00:26:49.320 I hope you're going to come back
00:26:50.460 and give us your analysis
00:26:51.820 at some future points.
00:26:53.860 But many,
00:26:54.900 many thanks for this
00:26:55.820 unique synthesis
00:26:57.780 of interpretation.
00:26:59.140 God bless for now.
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00:30:55.520 Hello,
00:30:56.080 America's Voice family.
00:30:57.100 Are you on
00:30:57.720 Getter yet?
00:30:58.440 No.
00:30:58.960 What are you waiting for?
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00:31:03.520 and conservative
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00:31:06.480 Download the
00:31:07.200 Getter app right
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00:31:11.040 my content 24 hours
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00:31:12.820 You want to know
00:31:13.220 what Steve Bannon's
00:31:14.180 thinking?
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00:31:15.180 That's right.
00:31:15.940 You can follow all
00:31:16.960 of your favorites.
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00:31:24.600 the movement.
00:31:27.060 Welcome back.
00:31:27.880 Well, if I recited
00:31:28.760 the full CV of my
00:31:30.400 next guest,
00:31:31.900 that's going to take
00:31:32.480 up the full
00:31:32.900 21 minutes
00:31:34.520 of this block.
00:31:36.060 Dr. Nicholas Wright,
00:31:37.560 welcome on to the show.
00:31:38.660 You have been an advisor
00:31:40.460 to the Pentagon Joint Chiefs
00:31:42.040 of Staff,
00:31:42.460 I think,
00:31:42.800 for over a decade.
00:31:44.600 You're an affiliate
00:31:45.620 scholar at Georgetown,
00:31:48.560 et cetera,
00:31:49.180 et cetera,
00:31:49.700 et cetera.
00:31:50.540 Huge,
00:31:51.060 huge academic
00:31:52.400 CV.
00:31:53.300 and you've published
00:31:57.040 this book
00:31:57.780 with the title
00:31:58.380 Warhead,
00:31:58.980 how the brain
00:32:00.880 shapes war
00:32:01.760 and war
00:32:03.080 shapes the brain.
00:32:06.760 And that basically,
00:32:07.460 the thesis
00:32:07.940 is,
00:32:08.780 I think,
00:32:09.840 to do the interplay
00:32:10.680 between the
00:32:11.460 amygdala
00:32:12.300 and the prefrontal
00:32:14.700 cortex
00:32:15.740 and the civil
00:32:17.380 war,
00:32:17.680 the neuron
00:32:18.120 civil war
00:32:18.800 between the two
00:32:19.980 areas.
00:32:20.820 And that somehow
00:32:21.440 makes us hard.
00:32:22.380 Well,
00:32:22.580 I'm not a neuroscientist.
00:32:24.880 That's my simplification.
00:32:26.780 And how,
00:32:27.100 but how that somehow
00:32:27.920 hardwires
00:32:30.300 aggression
00:32:30.980 and war
00:32:32.160 on the national
00:32:33.120 stage
00:32:33.440 when humans
00:32:33.960 come together
00:32:34.380 and act
00:32:34.760 socially.
00:32:36.320 Just in your
00:32:37.060 own words,
00:32:38.300 in your words,
00:32:38.920 explain to us
00:32:39.900 this thesis
00:32:40.940 and why it's
00:32:41.660 important.
00:32:43.640 Yeah,
00:32:44.020 so,
00:32:44.240 well,
00:32:44.380 thank you very much,
00:32:45.060 Ben,
00:32:45.180 for having me on.
00:32:46.080 So,
00:32:46.920 as you say,
00:32:48.240 the central idea
00:32:49.860 is that conflict
00:32:51.200 is part of us.
00:32:52.820 So,
00:32:53.060 throughout
00:32:53.480 prehistory
00:32:54.500 and history,
00:32:56.260 humans have
00:32:57.380 often faced
00:32:58.220 life-threatening
00:32:58.880 emergencies.
00:32:59.660 That could be
00:33:00.440 starvation,
00:33:01.180 it could be
00:33:01.940 violence,
00:33:02.840 life-threatening
00:33:03.320 violence.
00:33:04.160 And that's why
00:33:04.560 every brain,
00:33:05.280 yours,
00:33:05.640 Ben,
00:33:05.860 and mine,
00:33:06.360 and every viewer's
00:33:07.380 brain,
00:33:08.080 is built of
00:33:08.900 survival-grade
00:33:10.160 neural machinery.
00:33:12.220 Right?
00:33:12.380 It's built,
00:33:12.960 every brain is built
00:33:13.880 to win or at least
00:33:14.960 survive a fight.
00:33:16.640 And now,
00:33:17.060 as you travel
00:33:17.640 from the brainstem,
00:33:18.440 right at the base
00:33:19.160 of the brain,
00:33:19.920 through past the
00:33:20.540 amygdala that you
00:33:21.200 mentioned,
00:33:21.620 all the way through
00:33:22.060 to the frontal pole,
00:33:22.900 this bit right at
00:33:23.760 the very front of the
00:33:24.680 brain that is the
00:33:25.600 most distinctively
00:33:26.420 human part of the
00:33:27.180 brain,
00:33:27.520 does our most
00:33:27.940 sophisticated thinking
00:33:29.020 about thinking,
00:33:29.840 every part of the
00:33:31.440 brain can drive us
00:33:32.380 towards war.
00:33:33.860 There's not one
00:33:34.720 simple reason why
00:33:35.440 we're driven towards
00:33:36.020 war.
00:33:36.380 Every part of the
00:33:37.220 brain can contribute
00:33:38.100 to driving us
00:33:38.900 towards war.
00:33:39.720 But I'm actually
00:33:40.640 optimistic.
00:33:41.380 I don't want this to
00:33:41.860 be pessimistic.
00:33:42.580 I'm optimistic
00:33:43.180 because I think we
00:33:44.080 can know so much
00:33:45.500 more about ourselves
00:33:46.340 than we ever could
00:33:47.180 before.
00:33:48.040 And if we can
00:33:48.640 understand why
00:33:49.540 humans fight,
00:33:51.280 then we can reduce
00:33:52.140 the chances that
00:33:52.980 there will be wars
00:33:53.920 or that wars will
00:33:54.760 escalate if they
00:33:55.600 start.
00:33:55.980 And I don't
00:33:57.500 think we can
00:33:57.840 ever banish war,
00:33:58.840 but I'm optimistic
00:33:59.600 that if we
00:34:00.360 understand ourselves
00:34:01.040 better,
00:34:01.440 then we can harness
00:34:02.440 what's always been
00:34:03.020 the central weapon
00:34:04.200 of war,
00:34:04.740 as well as
00:34:05.220 instrument of peace,
00:34:06.380 which is the
00:34:06.920 human brain.
00:34:08.140 And so that means
00:34:08.580 we can win wars
00:34:09.840 if we must fight
00:34:11.020 them.
00:34:12.400 And so I think,
00:34:13.200 you know,
00:34:13.580 Secretary Hegseth,
00:34:14.340 for example,
00:34:14.720 a month ago also
00:34:15.500 said, you know,
00:34:16.540 peace through
00:34:16.960 strength.
00:34:17.520 And I think there's
00:34:18.060 a lot of truth to
00:34:18.740 that.
00:34:19.240 But I think also
00:34:20.040 my main argument
00:34:21.740 here is that we
00:34:22.660 can build a more
00:34:23.800 peaceful world
00:34:24.700 through self-knowledge,
00:34:27.500 through knowing
00:34:28.180 ourselves as humans
00:34:29.720 better.
00:34:31.760 So you have this
00:34:32.800 tension between
00:34:33.620 aggression and
00:34:34.680 empathy, right?
00:34:37.240 I happen personally
00:34:39.340 not to believe that
00:34:40.100 mankind is the
00:34:40.860 product of evolution.
00:34:42.340 I think we were
00:34:43.480 created in a
00:34:45.680 straightforward act
00:34:46.480 of God.
00:34:46.840 But put that to
00:34:47.620 the side and we'll
00:34:48.640 proceed in this
00:34:49.300 conversation as if
00:34:51.020 we are the
00:34:51.800 products of
00:34:52.480 evolution.
00:34:52.960 How is it that
00:34:54.380 aggression would
00:34:55.820 appear to have
00:34:56.880 the upper hand
00:34:57.900 between
00:34:59.020 evolution in
00:35:01.500 evolutionary terms?
00:35:03.820 Why does
00:35:04.360 aggression appear to
00:35:05.500 have the upper hand
00:35:06.300 between aggression
00:35:07.320 and empathy?
00:35:08.620 First question.
00:35:09.620 And the second
00:35:10.080 question is looking
00:35:11.200 at your insights.
00:35:12.480 Can you give me
00:35:12.960 some practical
00:35:13.820 pointers as to
00:35:16.080 the contributions
00:35:17.500 your research at
00:35:19.420 the cutting edge
00:35:20.000 of neuroscience
00:35:21.000 science could
00:35:22.160 have in the
00:35:23.240 public policy
00:35:24.140 sphere?
00:35:25.980 Yeah.
00:35:26.500 So the first
00:35:27.400 thing to say is
00:35:27.920 this isn't based
00:35:29.040 on evolution.
00:35:29.700 So my research is
00:35:31.080 to research the
00:35:31.840 brain.
00:35:32.680 I use functional
00:35:33.620 brain imaging,
00:35:34.780 other technologies
00:35:35.800 to understand how
00:35:37.160 humans make
00:35:37.700 decisions and how
00:35:38.380 that arises in the
00:35:39.240 brain.
00:35:40.280 So it's not based
00:35:41.460 on evolution, it's
00:35:42.140 based on how our
00:35:42.940 brains work.
00:35:43.800 So I don't think
00:35:44.240 it's inconsistent
00:35:44.960 with your sort
00:35:46.460 of philosophical
00:35:47.020 basis.
00:35:50.620 So our brains
00:35:53.600 have many
00:35:54.820 different brain
00:35:56.160 systems in them.
00:35:56.940 It's not just the
00:35:57.860 amygdala and the
00:35:58.440 prefrontal cortex,
00:35:59.000 it's many different
00:35:59.660 brain systems and
00:36:00.600 they create, they're
00:36:02.180 like an orchestra,
00:36:03.500 right?
00:36:03.820 Each of these
00:36:04.400 different brain
00:36:04.900 systems is like a
00:36:05.700 different part of
00:36:06.340 the orchestra.
00:36:06.920 It could be the
00:36:07.740 strings, right?
00:36:08.800 That could be the
00:36:09.720 fine violins that do
00:36:11.320 our most sophisticated
00:36:12.120 planning, for example,
00:36:14.360 or it could be the
00:36:15.160 brass that does, you
00:36:16.680 know, our big
00:36:17.360 emotions like fear
00:36:18.380 and so on.
00:36:18.880 We need all these
00:36:19.860 different parts of
00:36:20.560 our orchestra and
00:36:21.120 they're all part of
00:36:22.140 what makes up the
00:36:24.280 symphony with which
00:36:25.560 we live our life,
00:36:27.180 okay?
00:36:27.920 Now, it's not that
00:36:30.620 we're only built for
00:36:32.600 war because we're
00:36:33.360 built for many other
00:36:34.040 things too, but the
00:36:35.180 key point here is that
00:36:36.360 that is an important
00:36:37.380 part of us and we
00:36:38.460 need to understand
00:36:39.140 that.
00:36:39.880 But as you say,
00:36:41.180 for example,
00:36:42.160 reconciliation is
00:36:42.960 also important.
00:36:43.500 You talk about
00:36:43.740 empathy.
00:36:44.540 So reconciliation is
00:36:45.500 also incredibly
00:36:46.240 human, right?
00:36:47.420 So if you look at
00:36:48.180 Winston Churchill's
00:36:49.160 History of World
00:36:49.640 War II, for
00:36:50.240 example, the
00:36:51.420 moral right at the
00:36:52.680 beginning of that
00:36:53.240 book, a key
00:36:54.500 moral right he
00:36:55.360 puts right at the
00:36:55.880 beginning is in
00:36:56.740 victory, magnanimity.
00:36:59.460 So reconciliation is
00:37:01.340 every bit as human
00:37:02.360 as conflict and we
00:37:03.340 need to understand
00:37:04.060 this sweet, this,
00:37:06.320 you know, we need
00:37:06.980 to understand
00:37:07.480 ourselves in our
00:37:08.180 glorious,
00:37:08.960 glorious, true
00:37:10.780 symphony rather than
00:37:13.280 just one thing or
00:37:14.260 the other thing.
00:37:15.540 Now, how do I use
00:37:16.540 this practically?
00:37:17.500 So, for example,
00:37:18.400 I'll give you three
00:37:18.840 examples.
00:37:19.360 So one thing I've
00:37:20.460 spent a lot of time
00:37:21.360 working on with the
00:37:22.340 Pentagon and in fact
00:37:23.180 the thing that first
00:37:23.880 took me to Washington,
00:37:24.740 D.C.
00:37:25.160 was thinking about
00:37:26.280 nuclear weapons,
00:37:27.340 strategy with nuclear
00:37:28.300 weapons.
00:37:29.160 And what you're trying
00:37:29.740 to do there is,
00:37:30.740 is like whatever the
00:37:32.500 United States does,
00:37:33.600 right, it cannot
00:37:35.160 prevent Russia and
00:37:37.440 China from
00:37:39.100 retaliating with
00:37:40.360 nuclear weapons,
00:37:41.540 right?
00:37:41.940 And so what you need
00:37:43.180 to do with nuclear
00:37:44.080 weapons is you need
00:37:44.760 to try and influence
00:37:46.220 how the other side
00:37:47.400 is going to choose
00:37:48.640 to act, deterrence,
00:37:50.260 for example,
00:37:50.760 or controlling
00:37:51.160 escalation.
00:37:52.280 And so what is
00:37:53.040 often useful is
00:37:53.740 insights about how
00:37:55.200 will actions the
00:37:57.140 U.S.
00:37:57.460 might take, how can
00:37:58.380 they enhance the
00:37:59.080 effectiveness of those
00:37:59.860 actions?
00:38:00.440 Things like, for
00:38:01.020 example, using
00:38:01.680 surprise when you want
00:38:03.040 to and not when
00:38:03.940 you don't want to.
00:38:05.360 Another thing that
00:38:06.120 I've worked on is
00:38:07.040 information operations.
00:38:08.040 So how can we defend
00:38:08.940 ourselves against
00:38:09.640 things like adversaries
00:38:12.260 like Russia who are
00:38:12.940 very skilled at using
00:38:13.820 things like active
00:38:14.720 measures, right?
00:38:15.860 And we know that they
00:38:16.660 do this and they do
00:38:17.460 this in many different
00:38:18.160 countries.
00:38:18.940 I'm not saying this is
00:38:19.500 the most important
00:38:20.160 thing in domestic
00:38:21.220 politics in somewhere
00:38:23.120 like Britain or the
00:38:24.100 United States, but the
00:38:25.320 Russians do do these
00:38:26.340 things.
00:38:27.000 We need to think about
00:38:27.760 how they do that and
00:38:28.600 how we can potentially
00:38:29.760 defend against those
00:38:30.780 types of activities.
00:38:31.760 And again, the
00:38:32.620 central target of
00:38:34.440 every information
00:38:35.120 operation is the
00:38:36.280 human brain, right?
00:38:37.620 And they will use
00:38:38.540 very sophisticated
00:38:39.660 techniques that look
00:38:41.480 at emotions, that
00:38:42.340 look at how we
00:38:43.820 perceive things, how
00:38:44.540 we misperceive things
00:38:45.480 and so on.
00:38:45.880 So we need to
00:38:46.300 understand that to
00:38:47.020 defend.
00:38:48.180 And then a third
00:38:48.680 thing is AI, right?
00:38:50.460 So I've just finished
00:38:51.360 a big project and we
00:38:52.220 had involved people
00:38:53.320 from the director of
00:38:54.480 DARPA, which are the
00:38:55.420 people who invented
00:38:55.840 the internet, lots of
00:38:56.800 other people, the head
00:38:58.680 of Army Futures
00:38:59.360 Command.
00:38:59.700 And that was
00:39:01.120 about how can we
00:39:01.800 use AI, right, to
00:39:03.320 win wars in the
00:39:04.900 future?
00:39:05.240 Because it's not just
00:39:06.160 technology on its own
00:39:07.160 that wins wars, it's
00:39:08.440 humans using that
00:39:10.080 technology effectively
00:39:11.540 that wins wars.
00:39:12.800 And if we're going to
00:39:13.900 control AI effectively,
00:39:15.520 if we're going to
00:39:15.840 control squads or
00:39:17.420 swarms of robots, and
00:39:19.720 we saw those for the
00:39:20.620 first time used for
00:39:21.740 lethal effect on a
00:39:23.200 battlefield in Ukraine a
00:39:24.360 few weeks ago, that's
00:39:25.820 going to require
00:39:26.340 understanding the
00:39:27.180 human side of the
00:39:29.580 communication with the
00:39:30.440 AI robots, every
00:39:32.440 single bit as much as
00:39:34.140 the robots themselves.
00:39:35.580 And so those are all
00:39:36.140 some practical areas
00:39:37.240 that, you know, I've
00:39:38.260 been involved with the
00:39:39.040 Pentagon over the last
00:39:39.960 decade.
00:39:42.120 There's a phenomenal
00:39:43.140 amount to unpack
00:39:44.760 there.
00:39:45.360 Let's start at the
00:39:46.440 back, the closing
00:39:48.380 part of that.
00:39:49.120 And you mentioned
00:39:49.720 AI.
00:39:50.340 You have said that AI
00:39:53.860 really needs to, if I've
00:39:56.340 got this right, to
00:39:57.360 develop a pre-vortex,
00:40:01.380 basically as part of
00:40:02.800 the drive for
00:40:04.500 consciousness.
00:40:05.500 Tell me how you'd go
00:40:07.200 about doing that.
00:40:09.840 Yeah, so there's a
00:40:12.380 difference between being
00:40:13.620 clever and being wise.
00:40:15.820 So you're probably
00:40:16.320 familiar with the TV
00:40:17.400 program, the Big Bang
00:40:18.520 Theory, you know, the
00:40:19.400 comedy program, and you
00:40:20.300 have these very, very
00:40:20.960 clever guys at Caltech.
00:40:22.300 They're very clever, but
00:40:24.080 they often just get
00:40:24.880 themselves into pickles.
00:40:26.000 They get themselves to
00:40:26.700 mistakes because they
00:40:27.280 missed obvious parts of
00:40:28.700 the big picture, and it
00:40:31.380 leads them down, you
00:40:32.260 know, into getting into
00:40:34.160 all sorts of messes.
00:40:35.220 There's a difference
00:40:35.660 between being clever and
00:40:36.480 being wise.
00:40:38.040 So AI, for example, can
00:40:40.440 often be very clever.
00:40:41.400 So there was a famous
00:40:44.280 example, which was an AI
00:40:45.540 controlled a speedboat, and
00:40:47.960 it had to control this
00:40:48.700 speedboat, and which was
00:40:49.900 travelling down a course,
00:40:51.160 and the aim was to get as
00:40:53.120 fast as possible to the
00:40:54.000 other end.
00:40:54.560 But what the AI realised
00:40:55.800 was that if it just
00:40:56.980 circled around in the
00:40:58.460 middle of the course,
00:40:59.640 knocking things over, it
00:41:02.020 would actually make a
00:41:03.540 superhuman amount of
00:41:05.520 points, right?
00:41:07.180 That was actually the most
00:41:07.980 effective thing to do.
00:41:09.340 But that wasn't the
00:41:10.100 point of the game.
00:41:10.980 That wasn't the purpose
00:41:11.860 of the game.
00:41:12.680 The AI was being very
00:41:13.780 clever, but it wasn't
00:41:15.020 being wise.
00:41:15.720 So what is wisdom?
00:41:17.900 Now, obviously, that's an
00:41:18.740 age-old problem.
00:41:20.000 I'm not saying, you know,
00:41:21.540 I have every answer to
00:41:23.200 what wisdom is.
00:41:24.480 But we're really beginning
00:41:26.740 to understand really
00:41:28.040 important things about the
00:41:29.520 process of wisdom and how
00:41:30.960 the wiser decision-making
00:41:32.280 works in the human brain.
00:41:33.660 So let me give you one key
00:41:35.340 example, which is right
00:41:37.080 here, the frontal pole.
00:41:39.520 So the frontal pole is
00:41:40.760 really important for thinking
00:41:43.180 about thinking, right?
00:41:45.160 And this is what you do.
00:41:46.420 So you can, for example,
00:41:47.700 think about your own
00:41:48.940 thinking.
00:41:49.600 You can make a decision
00:41:50.640 and then you can say,
00:41:51.940 well, how certain am I
00:41:53.000 about that decision?
00:41:54.180 You can set a goal,
00:41:55.780 getting to the end of
00:41:56.540 this course, for example,
00:41:57.920 and then you can say,
00:41:58.560 well, how is this the
00:41:59.480 right goal for me to be
00:42:00.340 pursuing?
00:42:01.160 So what we can do is
00:42:02.740 we can now say,
00:42:05.120 how does the brain do
00:42:07.020 things like self-reflection?
00:42:08.880 How can we enhance that?
00:42:10.820 How can we make that
00:42:11.740 better?
00:42:12.420 How can we think,
00:42:13.180 for example, how humans
00:42:14.420 consider the overarching
00:42:17.220 purposes that they're
00:42:18.520 going for in their lives,
00:42:19.880 for example?
00:42:20.780 And then how can we make
00:42:22.040 wiser decisions?
00:42:23.440 And I think that's what
00:42:24.260 we're going to need to
00:42:24.740 do with AI because AI
00:42:26.600 ultimately follows an
00:42:29.120 objective function.
00:42:30.740 It follows an objective.
00:42:31.940 We set that objective,
00:42:33.500 right?
00:42:34.300 Now, you may not have
00:42:36.000 exactly the same
00:42:37.000 objectives in life as
00:42:38.360 every viewer out there
00:42:39.640 or me or the people who,
00:42:41.380 you know, cameramen,
00:42:42.400 whatever, right?
00:42:43.960 Humans have very
00:42:44.720 different objectives.
00:42:45.780 It's very difficult to
00:42:46.420 know how we're going to
00:42:47.000 set an objective that is
00:42:48.000 the right objective for
00:42:49.060 humanity, for AI.
00:42:51.040 So I don't think we can,
00:42:52.360 I don't think it's
00:42:52.940 possible for us to
00:42:53.900 simply align an AI's
00:42:55.380 objectives to exactly
00:42:56.320 what we want for
00:42:56.940 humanity because that's
00:42:57.700 very difficult.
00:42:58.760 I think what we need to
00:42:59.480 do is we need to, you
00:43:00.300 know, create an AI that
00:43:01.940 can make wiser choices,
00:43:03.320 that can lift its eyes
00:43:04.520 and see the bigger picture
00:43:05.940 about itself and ask
00:43:07.600 better questions and
00:43:09.660 make wiser, not just
00:43:11.100 cleverer decisions.
00:43:12.480 And I think that's what
00:43:13.120 we're going to have to
00:43:13.540 do with AI.
00:43:15.700 Standby, Dr.
00:43:16.580 Rad, I'm going to come
00:43:17.100 back to you in just two
00:43:18.660 minutes.
00:43:18.980 I gave the number
00:43:20.240 earlier on in the show
00:43:21.820 for Birch Gold.
00:43:22.780 I'll give it again now.
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00:43:26.800 Philip Patrick and his
00:43:28.300 team are standing by
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00:43:31.120 and they'll give you
00:43:31.840 all the assistance and
00:43:33.280 advice necessary on
00:43:34.540 rolling an IRA or 401k
00:43:37.420 into an IRA in gold.
00:43:41.460 And also, I just want to
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00:44:30.620 slash Bannon.
00:44:33.080 Dr. Nicholas Wright, let's
00:44:34.580 come back to you because
00:44:35.240 we only have a few moments
00:44:37.260 left of the show.
00:44:38.340 And it's absolutely
00:44:38.700 fascinating what you're
00:44:39.580 saying.
00:44:40.200 The necessity to think
00:44:42.900 about thinking is the
00:44:44.220 basic mandate of
00:44:45.100 philosophy, right?
00:44:46.020 For two and a half
00:44:47.260 thousand years, Western
00:44:48.080 philosophy, that's exactly
00:44:49.140 what it is.
00:44:49.600 It's the meta-analysis,
00:44:51.540 using the reflective
00:44:52.960 capacity to analyze the
00:44:55.260 reflective capacity.
00:44:56.680 That would certainly be a
00:44:58.380 sign, wouldn't it, of
00:44:59.640 that AI has established
00:45:02.900 true consciousness if it
00:45:05.080 were able to do that.
00:45:07.160 But one question I have
00:45:08.920 for you is that nearly
00:45:10.320 every culture in one way
00:45:12.180 or another through the
00:45:13.400 course of time has found
00:45:15.180 myths that sanctify war
00:45:17.420 from the Iliad to Jihad.
00:45:21.800 Do you think that myth-making
00:45:23.100 is a neural necessity, a
00:45:25.840 way to make sense of
00:45:28.200 that fear that the
00:45:30.460 amygdala drives?
00:45:33.580 I think you're entirely
00:45:34.620 correct.
00:45:35.340 So, again, so people
00:45:36.820 overstate this.
00:45:37.980 So it's not like myths
00:45:39.160 everything, but they're
00:45:40.460 one of the important
00:45:41.620 things, right?
00:45:42.520 We have a whole, you
00:45:44.560 know, a whole set of
00:45:45.520 systems in our brain that
00:45:46.600 are all important and
00:45:48.160 our capacity for myths
00:45:50.640 is one of those things.
00:45:51.720 So I'll just give you an
00:45:52.320 example, right?
00:45:53.000 Really important thing.
00:45:54.880 People worry about
00:45:55.700 societies falling apart,
00:45:57.060 American society falling
00:45:57.940 apart, British society
00:45:59.020 falling apart or
00:45:59.620 whatever.
00:46:00.100 But the remarkable thing
00:46:01.060 isn't that societies
00:46:01.920 fall apart.
00:46:02.740 It's that we can form,
00:46:04.360 humans can form groups
00:46:05.860 of more than a couple
00:46:06.700 of hundred individuals
00:46:07.740 at all because no
00:46:09.740 other primates can.
00:46:11.600 No other primates can
00:46:12.700 form a coherent group
00:46:14.720 of more than a few
00:46:15.400 hundred individuals.
00:46:16.580 And yet we can get to
00:46:17.480 the point of tribes,
00:46:19.160 which is thousands of
00:46:20.480 individuals that can
00:46:21.480 form a coherent group
00:46:22.300 and, you know, up to
00:46:23.280 hundreds of thousands,
00:46:24.620 millions, right?
00:46:25.980 So how do we do that?
00:46:27.560 Absolutely central to that
00:46:28.800 is something that I call
00:46:29.780 social alchemy, right?
00:46:31.980 What we can do is we
00:46:34.280 use, we create humans
00:46:37.000 whose identities,
00:46:38.980 their answers to the
00:46:39.700 question, who am I?
00:46:41.200 Their identities are
00:46:42.360 similar to enough,
00:46:43.520 similar enough to each
00:46:44.620 other that they can work
00:46:46.040 coherently together.
00:46:47.240 And in addition to
00:46:48.640 that, there is a
00:46:50.660 culture, right?
00:46:52.000 And by culture here, I
00:46:52.820 mean the basic idea of
00:46:54.900 how are things done
00:46:55.800 around here?
00:46:57.100 And that culture creates
00:46:59.160 individuals with coherent
00:47:00.620 identities and those
00:47:02.060 identities help create
00:47:03.500 the culture.
00:47:04.380 And that identity culture
00:47:05.860 spiral is central to how
00:47:08.260 humans can form huge
00:47:10.900 groups, right?
00:47:12.020 Which is something, as I
00:47:12.760 said, no other primates
00:47:14.020 can.
00:47:14.340 And in that, our
00:47:15.760 ability to speak, to
00:47:17.720 communicate, to say,
00:47:18.960 this is how you make a
00:47:20.040 flint axe, this is how
00:47:21.560 you ford a river, this is
00:47:23.220 what God might look like
00:47:25.000 or sound like or think
00:47:26.760 like or whatever, that is
00:47:28.460 central to how we are
00:47:30.660 able to create coherent
00:47:32.360 societies and religious
00:47:34.120 or mythological ideas
00:47:35.540 were central to creating
00:47:36.780 those at all times or
00:47:38.480 whereof in human history.
00:47:40.360 That's why we're able to
00:47:41.820 do that and no other
00:47:43.380 primates can.
00:47:44.200 So I think you're
00:47:45.140 right, myths are
00:47:46.100 central, one of the
00:47:47.640 suite of capabilities we
00:47:49.360 have that no other
00:47:50.220 primate has, certainly
00:47:51.320 not as well as us.
00:47:53.200 We literally only have
00:47:54.760 three minutes, but I
00:47:57.280 think your area of
00:47:58.140 study here is absolutely
00:47:59.700 fascinating because
00:48:00.720 you're starting off on
00:48:01.800 the individual basis, on
00:48:03.460 the anatomy of the human
00:48:04.520 brain, and then
00:48:06.580 expanding forward to
00:48:09.420 how all the human
00:48:11.580 exemplars react together
00:48:14.200 and how they share
00:48:15.940 social attributes based
00:48:18.740 on the hardwiring in the
00:48:20.740 brain.
00:48:21.180 Just in terms, because
00:48:22.140 you mentioned them, you
00:48:23.240 mentioned Russia and
00:48:24.500 Ukraine and China
00:48:25.760 earlier on, using the
00:48:28.040 insights of the specific
00:48:29.600 anatomy of the brain,
00:48:30.800 this tension between the
00:48:31.780 amygdala and the
00:48:34.920 prefrontal cortex.
00:48:36.360 So you're basically
00:48:38.860 sort of suggesting that
00:48:40.680 the element of
00:48:42.260 aggression is always
00:48:43.540 going to be there.
00:48:44.180 This is aside from the
00:48:45.020 theological concepts of
00:48:46.500 sin and what have you.
00:48:47.460 On the biological thing,
00:48:48.960 that aggression is
00:48:49.840 always going to be there.
00:48:50.700 It's always going to be
00:48:52.020 there on the social and
00:48:53.200 political level.
00:48:54.660 But as you said at the
00:48:55.620 beginning, what you're
00:48:56.420 trying to do is get
00:48:57.400 from the understanding of
00:48:59.120 knowing thyself to
00:49:00.980 work forward and find a
00:49:03.260 way of understanding that
00:49:04.720 reality and that
00:49:06.020 aggression is always
00:49:06.740 going to be there to
00:49:07.760 find a way to contain
00:49:09.160 it, right?
00:49:11.240 Exactly.
00:49:12.000 If we can understand,
00:49:13.340 for example, how fear
00:49:15.700 works better, then we
00:49:17.100 can control our fears
00:49:18.180 better.
00:49:18.740 If we can understand
00:49:19.900 that, you know, when
00:49:21.680 we feel these social
00:49:23.240 motivations against
00:49:24.060 injustice and that can
00:49:25.080 help us, you know,
00:49:25.920 really fight against
00:49:26.980 things that are bad in
00:49:28.180 the world.
00:49:28.600 And yet, on the other
00:49:29.180 hand, when two groups
00:49:30.200 have too exclusive an
00:49:31.660 idea of justice, then
00:49:34.300 that can lead to a
00:49:34.940 tragedy, right?
00:49:35.800 And you talked about
00:49:36.260 ancient Greece.
00:49:36.700 That was a classic, you
00:49:37.560 know, example of
00:49:38.120 tragedy in ancient
00:49:38.920 Greece, right?
00:49:40.100 Where it's not right
00:49:41.040 versus wrong.
00:49:41.660 It's two rights
00:49:42.560 clashing.
00:49:44.140 And so those are the
00:49:46.600 types of things where
00:49:47.500 if we understand that
00:49:48.640 better, if we understand
00:49:49.500 how human morality
00:49:50.520 works better in the
00:49:51.440 brain, if we can
00:49:52.020 enhance our ability to
00:49:54.300 reflect so we can see
00:49:56.200 ourselves in the world
00:49:58.040 better, right, so that
00:49:59.500 then we can make wiser
00:50:00.280 decisions, if we can do
00:50:01.120 all of the, if we
00:50:01.680 enhance all of these
00:50:02.440 things, which of course
00:50:03.100 we can also do in
00:50:03.740 everyday life too.
00:50:04.780 This is the same brain
00:50:05.600 with which you and I
00:50:06.420 go to the supermarkets
00:50:07.460 or, you know, drive our
00:50:08.940 car or whatever, right?
00:50:10.700 If we can understand
00:50:11.980 ourselves better, then
00:50:13.600 we can hopefully prevent
00:50:16.280 wars from happening.
00:50:17.360 And as I said, if we
00:50:18.060 need to fight a war, and
00:50:20.020 I think we can never get
00:50:21.020 to the point where wars
00:50:21.740 will be completely
00:50:22.340 impossible, then, you
00:50:25.060 know, the reason why
00:50:26.080 the Pentagon is
00:50:26.740 interested in what I
00:50:27.340 have to say and why I
00:50:28.880 feel that I have really
00:50:30.560 gained a huge amount of
00:50:31.660 value working with them
00:50:32.560 is that, you know, we
00:50:34.240 can work out how to
00:50:35.140 fight those wars better
00:50:36.200 if we need to.
00:50:37.860 And both those things
00:50:38.820 are important.
00:50:39.400 Why we fight and why
00:50:40.620 we win wars.
00:50:42.960 Dr. Wright, could you
00:50:44.340 just tell us where
00:50:45.100 people can go to get
00:50:47.180 that book that you've
00:50:48.520 published, Warhead, how
00:50:50.100 the brain shapes war and
00:50:51.780 the war shapes brain?
00:50:53.280 And where do people go
00:50:54.240 to keep up with your
00:50:55.680 research on social media?
00:50:57.420 Yeah, so the books in
00:51:00.620 any bookshop, you can
00:51:01.800 actually listen to me
00:51:02.720 talking on the audio
00:51:04.440 book, wherever you get
00:51:05.340 your audio books, and
00:51:07.320 on social media, Nicholas
00:51:09.780 D. Wright on X, and
00:51:13.580 I'm on LinkedIn and so
00:51:16.720 on.
00:51:17.140 And I would love to speak
00:51:18.380 to people if you want to
00:51:19.040 get in contact.
00:51:19.700 I would love to discuss
00:51:20.780 these issues with people.
00:51:23.540 Dr. Nicholas Wright, I'm
00:51:24.640 very grateful for you
00:51:25.480 coming on.
00:51:25.800 And I'm specifically
00:51:26.720 grateful that you were
00:51:27.940 able to handle these
00:51:29.020 extremely complex terms
00:51:31.280 in a way that I, as a
00:51:32.580 non-specialist, can
00:51:33.800 understand.
00:51:34.420 But it was very
00:51:35.160 instructive.
00:51:35.860 Thank you for that.
00:51:36.820 Come on again at some
00:51:39.000 point in the future for
00:51:41.280 a further elucidation.
00:51:43.660 Folks, that's all we have
00:51:44.600 time for today.
00:51:45.480 Thanks to Kyle and the
00:51:46.780 great team at Real
00:51:47.580 America's Voice in
00:51:48.880 Denver.
00:51:49.340 And thank you to
00:51:50.240 Vittorio Franco for
00:51:51.740 putting this show
00:51:52.560 together.
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