Sam Tannenhaus, the author of The Life and Revolution That Changed America, joins me in the War Room to talk about his new book, Buckley: The Man Who Changed America. He talks about how he got his start as a writer and how he became one of the most influential men in American history.
00:03:00.000And I want to really thank the guys in Denver and the team there for that great kind of mashup highlight reel for the first two hours of Buckley, the life and the revolution that changed America with Sam Tannenhaus, the author.
00:03:33.000We actually played it the first part of that week.
00:03:36.000Talk to me about the impact it had on just the book sale, the publisher, whatever, because I can tell you the audience has been looking forward to this and they just love the book, but they really loved you just kind of hanging out, telling stories.
00:03:51.000I got an email the day after you put up that, you know, the first show, the conversation we had, and it was forwarded.
00:04:02.000It was my editor forwarding an internal memo from Random House that said, rush, reorder 3,000 copies for a book like mine.
00:04:12.000You know, it's a big book, a lot of history, a lot of stories, but a lot of history.
00:04:17.000It's a book that tries to show you what America was like for many, many years, and the great guy who was at the center of it is almost unheard of.
00:04:28.000And early on, I'll tell you, when we heard, the publisher heard that you were interested in talking to me, the publicist, who's a top publicist at Random House, big publisher, as you know, said, this will move books.
00:04:44.000And everybody says, okay, we kind of think that.
00:04:47.000And then, you and I had the conversation, that great conversation down in Washington, you put it up, and the reprint order came.
00:04:57.000And I've been doing this for a long time, Steve, I've been writing books for 40 years, I just have not seen this before.
00:05:04.000And so now I know, it's like, you know, the space launch, you know, the shuttle launch, they're all gathered around, they're going to listen to us talk and have a good conversation.
00:05:15.000And then they're going to look at the numbers.
00:05:17.000And I see on Amazon, for listeners out there, good place to order, and they have the stock, they did get it reordered in time, so you can go on Amazon and get the book.
00:05:28.000I was in Little Rock, do a thing at the Clinton Center the other day, and we went to a bookstore, they had one copy left, and they had back orders for the rest.
00:05:37.000And it's because of what you're doing, and listen, no one's more grateful than me.
00:05:42.000No, but our audience, we want to always get them the best books and conversations and access to people like yourself.
00:05:49.000So before we start this, I want everybody, it is a great Christmas gift, particularly if there's a young person in your life that doesn't really understand what happened to the country after the war, after World War II,
00:06:02.000and really the turmoil behind the placid kind of surface, the turmoil the country was in, it's a great gift.
00:06:09.000They will really learn, it's so well written, you go from kind of story to story.
00:06:13.000Because it's building, it's not just about Buckley's life, that's important enough in itself,
00:06:17.000but Sam really goes and tells really the political history of the country and builds about the revolution that brought not just Ronald Reagan,
00:06:26.000but also Donald Trump after that. So you're an active part of this, you're a World War and Posse member, this is your history.
00:06:32.000Also for yourself, if you're going to get a little time, and everybody should take a little time off over the holidays,
00:06:38.000although we're not here, we're going to be on every day as we always are.
00:06:43.000You can curl up with this, and you'll learn a lot. And you kind of think it through, particularly at post-World War II, about where we are today.
00:06:53.000In fact, we left last time, Sam, Alger Hiss, we did a good little cover at the beginning.
00:06:59.000Alger Hiss was just found, was being found guilty of, I guess, of perjury.
00:07:04.000But his brings in, and Buckley was still a very young person at the time.
00:07:08.000We still got to get to Yale and everything that happened at Yale.
00:07:13.000The Ivy League schools really ran the country more than they run it today.
00:07:16.000Talk to me about Buckley's experience, particularly coming in this tumultuous time that you got guys like Richard Nixon coming on the scene.
00:07:24.000There's part of the Republican Party. It'd almost be like MAGA.
00:07:28.000You had the Eisenhower, Taft, Conservative Inc, or, you know, were kind of, you know, I don't want to say Eisenhower was a globalist, but more of the Republican establishment.
00:07:40.000You had firebrands like Nixon coming up, McCarthy, that were pointing out there was something deeply wrong with the country that you had more than just globalists.
00:07:49.000You actually had infiltration of communism.
00:07:51.000I think people today just forget because they just look at it through, you know, Robert Redford movie, right, The Way We Were.
00:07:58.000They don't realize how this whole issue of communism really gripped the nation.
00:08:03.000And Buckley, when he went to Yale, kind of wrote this book that put him on the national scene right away, sir.
00:08:10.000Yes. Well, what happened was, as you said, yeah, they exposed the communist spy rings.
00:08:17.000And at first, there was a lot of resistance to that. People didn't think it was really happening.
00:08:21.000Then the evidence comes out. And we talked about this, I think, in our first conversation.
00:08:26.000Nixon was the guy who saw there was something off about the blue blood, Alger Hiss, and that sort of, you know, dumpy, frumpy accuser, Whitaker Chambers, who is no joke, by the way, right?
00:08:40.000He's a big editor at Time Magazine, brilliant writer and journalist, that it was Chambers who was telling the truth.
00:08:47.000Well, Buckley was following this really closely. Why? He's at Yale University.
00:08:51.000And he goes there in 1946, who was part of that first group after World War II, right, the GI Bill.
00:08:59.000Buckley didn't need the GI Bill, but he's surrounded by a lot of guys who could use it, who would not have been at a place like Yale if they didn't have that opportunity.
00:09:09.000Why? Because Yale was strictly blue blood before them. And Buckley looked like he was blue blood, but he wasn't really.
00:09:18.000And this is really important to understand. Buckley grew up in a huge estate, what's called the northwest corner of Connecticut.
00:09:25.000It's New England. Beautiful area. The house is still there. 47 acres, magnificent estate.
00:09:31.000Looks like the White House, looks like the north portico of the White House, raised with servants and groomsmen in the 1930s and 40s.
00:09:38.000But the Buckleys were Catholic. They were super devout Catholics.
00:09:43.000So when they worshiped in their little town of Sharon, Connecticut, they did not go to the beautiful historic Episcopal Church or the Congregational Church, which are always the main ones in Connecticut.
00:09:56.000No, they went around the corner, almost into an alleyway where there was a little Catholic church called St. Bernard's that had been thrown up overnight because suddenly there were more Catholics living in the area.
00:10:08.000And this is really important. People don't believe me when I tell them this, Steve. Buckley and his siblings and parents didn't go alone to worship on Sunday.
00:10:18.000They took the household servants with them, white and black and Hispanic because Buckley spoke all these languages. They lived all over the world.
00:10:27.000That's who got in the Buckley's big Buicks and drove around the famous Green and Sharon and went to church. Buckley was an altar boy.
00:10:34.000He and his three brothers were all altar boys in this very modest little Catholic church.
00:10:39.000So I realized when I was writing this book, that's the beginning of Buckley's connection with what later was called the silent majority, middle Americans.
00:10:50.000Today, we call them MAGA. We call the people who are who are excluded by the elites.
00:10:55.000So Buckley's raised with wealth. His father made a fortune and lost it in oil.
00:11:00.000His father is super conservative because he saw the Mexican Revolution up front.
00:11:05.000People should know, even historians forget this. The first great revolution in Mexico, in the world, was not the Soviet Revolution, the Bolshevik Revolution in 1917.
00:11:17.000It was the Mexican Revolution, 1910 to 1920. Buckley's father was a casualty of it.
00:11:24.000And, but not a passive one. He actually organized guerrilla resistance. I found this in the research.
00:11:32.000He had the weapons of the time when guys with mercenaries with Winchester rifles crossing the border to try to stop the Mexican Revolution.
00:11:42.000It didn't work. OK, so he goes up north, takes his family.
00:11:46.000But hang on. But hang on. But hang on. But hang on. I want to make sure people know this because it's very important for the Buckley's development is that one of the main reasons he did that is his Catholicism.
00:11:55.000Remember, the Mexican Revolution is a revolution as bitter as the French Revolution.
00:12:01.000You know, this is the start of the revolution of the 20th century, but it was bitter and almost went back to the French Revolution of being anti-clerical.
00:12:07.000You know, the Freemasons and, you know, and they had the the secularist and quite frankly, with with the beginning of communist influence was after the church.
00:12:19.000And Buckley's father, not just about oil and about material goods, but he was an ardent Catholic.
00:12:25.000And there were a lot of serious Catholic businessmen that actually financed the, you know, try to finance the stop of how radical this Mexican Revolution was because it was anti-clerical and killing so many priests. Correct?
00:12:55.000It's not Kennedy-style Irish Catholic.
00:12:59.000It's almost Spanish-Mexican counter-reformation Catholicism.
00:13:04.000They really believe, you know, we have the post-liberal group out now that we hear a lot about, super-educated Catholics who think America and the Western democracies should have a closer association with the church.
00:13:19.000Well, Buckley grew up in a family that believed that.
00:13:21.000And his brother-in-law, Brent Bozell, became the first, I would argue, of the post-liberals before the word even existed.
00:13:29.000He lived in Spain for much of his life, a throne and altar Catholicism.
00:13:35.000He goes off to Yale University, right?
00:13:37.000He's taking his first classes, and he's getting instruction from professors who tell him, well, you know, the Bible, religion, Catholicism, it's another superstition.
00:13:50.000It's like people in the deepest jungles in the Philippines or Africa who have these rituals they follow.
00:13:57.000Buckley can't believe he's hearing it.
00:13:59.000And I'll tell you something, Steve, this is why it's important to do podcasts like yours and others.
00:14:04.000One of the first podcasts I did was with a very famous journalist in our moment, Andrew Sullivan, who is Catholic.
00:14:12.000He's kind of centrist, liberal, raised in England with an Irish family.
00:14:17.000He told me, because he read my book, I was fascinated by Buckley's history.
00:14:22.000He said when Andrew Sullivan went to Harvard in the 1980s as a scholarship student, he could not believe his professors never discussed the Bible as possibly being revealed truth.
00:14:36.000It was just like an artifact from an ancient time.
00:14:41.000Well, Buckley sees that he's sitting in the classroom, he can't believe what he's hearing.
00:14:45.000Buckley, during World War II, taught himself speed writing.
00:14:49.000So he's able to write down everything the professor is saying in the classroom.
00:14:55.000Buckley won the competition, super stiff competition, to become what was then called the chairman, we would say editor, of the Yale Daily News.
00:16:08.000They're forcing them out of their jobs or killing them.
00:16:12.000And Buckley sees this is going on in a different way around him.
00:16:18.000There's kind of a war on religion and a war on the free enterprise economics he was raised with, right?
00:16:25.000So Buckley becomes, in the old term, you and I still remember it, the big man on campus.
00:16:31.000He's the best known, most popular guy in his entire Yale class, which, by the way, was two or three times larger than any previous class because the end of World War II and the beginning of the GI Bill.
00:16:46.000So Buckley is becoming famous while he's a college student.
00:16:50.000The way we can kind of get that because we have these really prominent young guys, you know, the late Charlie Kirk or Nick Fuentes or guys on the left who make their bones, they make their names when they're super young.
00:17:04.000Buckley invented that by using the college newspaper to wage war against Yale University.
00:17:11.000And in one of the first editorials he wrote when he won the competition to be the chairman, that meant he could write a daily editorial.
00:17:21.000And I talked to classmates who said before Buckley came along, the newspaper would come in your office and you'd scan it to see how the Bulldogs, the Yale Bulldogs were doing in the game against Cornell or Harvard.
00:17:33.000Once Buckley came around, you went right to the editorial.
00:17:36.000He was the first student journalist to call out his professors by name.
00:17:41.000And so he named this guy who he said is treating the classroom as a pulpit to try to persuade Christians like Bill Buckley that their religion doesn't count for anything.
00:18:40.000The publisher, nobody's, when this book's getting ready to come out of doing it, this is really public intellectuals or intellectual history of Yale University.
00:18:49.000They think this has such a tiny market.
00:19:01.000This book blows up so far past expectations because you're basically, it's a student talking about the woke professors at Yale in the 1950s.
00:20:29.000I hear from a lot of young people, a lot of young conservatives who go through my website, samtananous.com, and they send me notes and they're fascinated by Buckley.
00:24:24.000And what they attack Buckley on, correct me if I'm wrong, I found it fascinating.
00:24:28.000They go, well, one of the problems with Buckley is he doesn't quite get our program at Yale.
00:24:34.000And the reason he doesn't get the program, because we've been here longer than the nation, right, by almost 100 years.
00:24:39.000He doesn't really get it because he's a Catholic, right?
00:24:43.000They actually went, the line of attack and a lot of the editorials they put out is that Buckley doesn't really understand Yale or understand the way we roll because he's the ultimate outsider.
00:24:53.000The two ultimate outsiders at the time were Catholics and Jews, right?
00:24:56.000So he says, we don't, he doesn't understand us because he's a hidebound Catholic.
00:25:00.000Give me a minute on that, Sam, before we go to break.
00:25:02.000There's a fantastic line another conservative of the period had, Peter Barrett.
00:25:07.000He said, Catholic baiting is the anti-Semitism of the liberal.
00:25:12.000Very true. Hang on. Buckley's the book is not just about a man.
00:25:23.000That period of time would be post-war America in the radical conservative revolution that manifests itself later with Barry Goldward, with Richard Nixon, with Ronald Reagan, and with Donald John Trump.
00:25:36.000A revolution, folks, that you have been the tip of the tip of the spear.
00:25:40.000If you want to see the intellectual background of how it got started, the books by Sam Tannenhaus, it's Buckley.
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00:32:17.000Sam, I also want to mention, first off, everybody that bought the book and got back to me in the interim has absolutely loved the book.
00:32:25.000And they've given it as gifts, and so I know a lot of our audiences want to give them to young people.
00:32:30.000But also, if you know a boomer in your life, get it to them, because they're going to see a side of Buckley that they've never seen before.
00:32:36.000But I have to mention, since we spent so much time in the first two hours talking about Whitaker Chambers and really the pre-war America, people bought the Whitaker Chambers books.
00:32:47.000I think Amazon sold out, and I've gotten feedback.
00:32:53.000Well, Chambers is one of Buckley's heroes, first of all.
00:32:56.000Chambers is really important because he was the guy who had been far left, actually been a Soviet spy, who defected, realized he was a Christian, and that Christianity was the only faith that had the conviction and the values to contest totalitarianism.
00:33:18.000And so he became really the originator of what we think of today as a kind of Christian anti-communism.
00:33:48.000What does it say about America then, but even America today or the West, that two of the stalwarts against the communists were not simply Christians, but not mainstream.
00:34:01.000I mean, Whitaker Chambers came, and I tell people, look at Whitaker Chambers for lived Christianity.
00:34:10.000When he converted, he went all the way from an atheist, hardcore Marxist, atheist, intellectual, this thing is ridiculous, it's a superstition, to a lived Christianity that's almost back to first century Christianity.
00:34:22.000And Buckley's a traditional Catholic, Latin mass Catholic.
00:34:26.000I mean, Buckley would be what we call trad Catholic today, not a mainstream thing.
00:34:31.000What does it say that there were not mainstream Protestant churches?
00:34:36.000That was looked at as also, even the Billy Graham thing, everything about revivalism and evangelical back then was looked at as like, this is not.
00:34:44.000But the power structure in our country was WASP, a white Anglo-Saxon mainstream Protestantism.
00:34:51.000What does it tell you that two of the fiercest warriors against the communists were kind of on the margins of Christianity?
00:34:58.000I'm not saying the Catholic churches, but Buckley's interpretation of it.
00:35:01.000Well, they were on the margins of what we would think of as a kind of socially respectable Protestantism.
00:35:07.000You know, one of somebody, not a professor of Bill's, but of his brother, Reed, who became a writer, was a famous scholar, not remembered today very well, called Clance Brooks, who was a literary scholar from Louisiana.
00:35:22.000When I was doing my research, I found that back in the 1930s, he'd made some of the same arguments about liberal Protestantism that Chambers and then Buckley did, that this is really kind of like a slightly church-inflected New Dealism.
00:35:40.000It became progressive politics with a kind of what we would call woke ideology that almost seemed more important than liturgy, the Bible, the traditions of the church.
00:35:53.000And as you say, Buckley was very much a trad Catholic.
00:35:57.000He was doing the Latin Mass till the end of his days.
00:36:01.000He and Francis found priests who would do the Latin Mass.
00:36:05.000Exactly. Back when the Latin Mass was hard to get to.
00:36:08.000Sam, two things for this hour I want to make sure we finish with is, because people know the National Review.
00:36:16.000Most people know William F. Buckley's National Review, but the way it started, how young he was when it started, he was a wunderkind.
00:36:22.000But before that, and this goes back to, in your book, it's fascinating.
00:36:32.000He got to actually lead men who were not the Yale types or the private school types.
00:36:37.000The military, you can tell, was important in the formation of William F. Buckley as a man.
00:36:42.000But then after all this happens, he wants to go.
00:36:45.000He really, his first focus is the Central Intelligence Agency, correct?
00:36:49.000Yeah, he had a professor at Yale, brilliant, fascinating guy named Wilmore Kendall, who had been in the OSS, right, the Office of Strategic Services that preceded the CIA World War II operation that had many brilliant people doing analysis, counterintelligence.
00:37:05.000And Wilmore Kendall, after the Korean War started, which happened right after Buckley graduated in 1950, right at the time he got married in this remarkable ceremony out in Vancouver, because Buckley's wife, Pat Taylor, was richer than he was and became famous socialite in New York.
00:37:23.000They had the wedding to top all weddings in Vancouver, thousands of people there.
00:37:28.000Then suddenly North Korea invades South Korea, and Buckley was ready to become a teacher at Yale.
00:37:34.000He was going to teach Spanish there and write his book.
00:37:39.000And his mentor, Wilmore Kendall, who was doing intelligence now for the military and the CIA, tells him, well, if you want to make a difference, I can set you up with some people who were operating this new intelligence agency.
00:37:54.000So Buckley goes to Washington, and he meets two guys, one of them is a famous writer and thinker, James Burnham, who's very much in the news today, one of the originators of the modern conservative argument, and he became a mentor to Buckley.
00:38:10.900The other was a hot shot who came out of the army named E. Howard Hunt, Watergate fame slash notoriety.
00:38:20.900He became Buckley's station chief in Mexico City, because Mexico City had the biggest office, CIA clandestine office in the hemisphere, because there are a lot of communists down there, a lot of Soviet operatives, and Latin America looks like it may be.
00:38:40.900Maybe really tilting to the Soviet sphere.
00:38:42.900So Buckley was sent to Mexico City because of his great Spanish.
00:38:50.900I also want to say, 10 years removed from the CIA office and stationed in Mexico City with E. Howard Hunt, founded by E. Howard Hunt, one of the most controversial parts of the Kennedy assassination drama, correct?
00:39:06.900Correct. I mean, we still haven't quite gotten to the, we haven't gotten to the bottom of the, we haven't gotten to the bottom of that station in relation.
00:39:14.900And E. Howard Hunt's role, or proposed role, or rumored role, or mythical role in the Kennedy assassination.
00:39:21.900E. Howard Hunt was a, well, behind the scenes, my point is, he is a, he's a power player, although, and a wild man, doesn't play by the rules, even at a relatively junior level. He's, he's a guy making a difference.
00:39:36.900I mean, Buckley and Burnham, the managerial revolution may be one of the most important books ever written in the United States about the industrial, really post war America and how organization man is going to take charge.
00:39:48.900It's really the beginning of kind of globalization in the way that if you can't measure it, you can't manage him. It's all, it's all Burnham.
00:39:55.900Anybody who wants to know how important James Burnham is, should read a book, or reread a book, because everybody knows it, George Orwell's 1984 came directly out of James Burnham.
00:40:08.900He'd been totally impressed by Burnham's argument that there was a secret, what we would call the deep state, right? What, what Burnham called the managerial elite. That was his term for the deep state. And Orwell actually has an entire manuscript, if you remember 1984, that circulates underground. That's kind of his version of James Burnham.
00:40:34.900So Burnham was huge. And, but Hunt was a different guy. You're right. He was the operative. Burnham's the intellectual. Hunt is the counterintelligence operative. If you remember the revolution in Guatemala that was done in the early 1950s, the first big CIA victory was done through a kind of counter programming, side war, they called it, psychological warfare. Burnham had the idea. Hunt carried it out.
00:41:04.900He was Buckley. He was Buckley's boss. So one of the strains, the lines of storytelling in the book is Buckley as a CIA asset, as they called him back then, in the war against communism.
00:41:17.640So Buckley's in Mexico City with his wife, his newlywed, right? Their newlyweds are about to give, she's about to give birth to their, their child, Christopher Buckley, the famous writer. This is 1951. And he says, oh, gosh, that book I wrote about Yale, it's blowing up back in the United States. He's in Mexico City while this is happening.
00:41:38.460So he goes to his boss, Howard Hunt, and he says, Howard. And Howard Hunt said, Buckley and he were always operational equals, right? Seven years apart in date of birth. Hunt's a little older, but he recognizes. He said Buckley's a genius. He's super sophisticated intellectually. And Buckley did some CIA missions.
00:42:00.440He translated an important book into English and then back into Spanish that circulated in the early anti-communist years, but written by a Peruvian communist. It's communist. So Buckley's getting all this experience, but all the actions back home.
00:42:16.020So he tells Howard, I'm going to leave the CIA. I'm going to go back and try to live a public life. Leading a public life meant becoming an ally of Joe McCarthy. And we talked about that. Some of my favorite chapters in the story I tell about Buckley and Joe McCarthy, a much different relationship than people realize.
00:42:34.520Bill Buckley was very close to Joe McCarthy, as Jack Kennedy was, by the way, and Nixon for a time, right?
00:42:46.780I want to get into, exactly. Buckley's ideal of a life well lived and the ideal of a man in post-war America was both an intellectual, but a man of action, right?
00:43:02.080He said he felt you had to be both, an intellectual, public intellectual, but also a man of action. He just wasn't for going to the university and becoming a scholar and just living that sheltered life.
00:43:14.360Buckley was drawn to this, and he realized, and the people he looked at that he admired were both intellectuals and smart people, but also people that would go out there and take risk, right?
00:43:23.800And actually confront and be kind of intellectual warriors are in his regard, even, you know, because he was always head in the back, you know, doing CIA operations.
00:43:32.680That's what I found amazing about your book. You kind of tie it together.
00:43:36.180But let's go to McCarthy. We have, people don't understand, Jack Kennedy, Bobby Kennedy, Richard Nixon, Bill Buckley.
00:43:42.840Today, McCarthy's thing is trashed, right?
00:43:45.880You see some of the people that people admired most about defeating the Soviet Union and standing up for American values.
00:43:54.880What Buckley saw in the book he wrote with his brother-in-law, Brent Bozell, I think it's a really interesting observation, insight they had.
00:44:03.520And by the way, somebody who was going to publish an essay Buckley wrote defending McCarthy and changed his mind, he told me it was an act of cowardice, was a guy named Henry Kissinger, an anti-communist who published a magazine in these days.
00:44:20.860And Buckley was a bigger guy than Kissinger back then.
00:44:23.680I interviewed Kissinger a few times for this book.
00:44:25.560And he said the first time he met Buckley, Buckley took him to lunch at the New York Yacht Club.
00:44:31.460And Kissinger was a young Harvard professor.
00:44:33.660He said, this guy was out of my league, socially out of my league.
00:44:38.020You know, he's operating in a different sphere.
00:46:12.240And you're right about another thing, Steve.
00:46:14.500I want to make sure we don't lose sight of.
00:46:17.420Buckley wasn't just denounced when that book came out for being a Catholic who didn't get it.
00:46:23.900He was virtually accused of being an agent of the true conspiracy in America, not the communist conspiracy, the Vatican conspiracy to take over America.
00:46:39.040Very respected people, including at the upper echelons of the Yale administration.
00:46:46.060In fact, I saw a correspondence where graduates of Yale, Jews and Catholics, because there were quotas against both of them, are saying, what, you have to be a Protestant to write about Yale?
00:46:57.400And then one guy just said to the president, you're smearing him.
00:49:07.020We're going to work with you at the best time.
00:49:08.320But I want to have it on the morning show.
00:49:10.240Before I leave, just so we've got a couple of minutes.
00:49:12.100Kennedy, both Jack and Bobby, and Bobby worked for McCarthy, Nixon, Roy Cohn, Bill Buckley, people that later on became kind of giants in the American landscape.
00:49:26.180Although Roy Cohn has become bigger, I think, even today because he was one of the mentors for Donald Trump.
00:49:31.400What was it they saw in McCarthy that they admired?