Bannon's War Room - WarRoom Battleground EP 922： AI Doom Debates with Liron Shapira

00:00:00.000 Not content with addicting our kids to their gizmos or amassing fortunes the size of lesser

00:00:14.680 European states, our tech elite has turned with rabid enthusiasm to artificial intelligence.

00:00:20.920 No, only the less cautious articulate the real reason, what many quietly believe, that

00:00:27.620 AI will reinvent human existence.

00:00:31.280 Social media changed how kids talk to other kids.

00:00:34.380 It dehumanized it.

00:00:36.120 AI is going to take the human on the other end away and kids are going to grow up talking

00:00:41.080 to artificial creatures.

00:00:43.320 They are not going to learn how to talk to real humans, which bodes very, very poorly

00:00:47.700 for their own lives, their own work lives, for marriage, for child rearing.

00:00:52.980 All those are threatened if kids grow up interacting with AIs rather than humans. 1.00

00:00:56.760 This is the most consequential technology in the history of humanity.

00:01:01.940 It will transform our country.

00:01:04.080 It will transform the world.

00:01:05.760 And we have not had in Congress, in the media, and I'm glad you're doing this show, or among

00:01:10.920 the American people, the kind of discussion that we need.

00:01:13.440 The eugenicist Julian Huxley predicted this as far back as 1957.

00:01:18.820 I believe in transhumanism, he said.

00:01:21.580 He coined the term.

00:01:22.220 And so do untold numbers of today's tech class.

00:01:26.660 That is the vision, the religion, the ideology that animates so much of the breathless race 1.00

00:01:33.600 for artificial intelligence and for general artificial intelligence and super intelligence

00:01:39.120 and beyond for the day when humans are no longer embodied beings at all, but live infinitely

00:01:45.280 in the cloud.

00:01:45.980 Multi-multi-billionaires are pouring hundreds of billions of dollars into implementing and

00:01:52.040 developing this technology.

00:01:53.860 What is their motive?

00:01:55.160 Do you think they're staying up nights worrying about working people and how this technology

00:01:59.300 will impact those people?

00:02:00.620 They are not.

00:02:02.100 They are doing it to get richer and even more powerful.

00:02:05.400 I call it AI exceptionalism, as if this is going to be something where, you know, it's going

00:02:10.980 to solve every problem and humans aren't even going to be needed to do.

00:02:14.280 Everyone can just sit around and play golf all day and you're going to get universal basic

00:02:18.320 income and they're going to cure.

00:02:19.420 And it's like, like, no.

00:02:21.340 Like, first of all, that's not likely to happen.

00:02:24.620 And second of all, I think it raises huge concerns.

00:02:27.360 And so I am, you know, not an AI exceptionalist.

00:02:31.400 I'm an individual and human exceptionalist.

00:02:35.240 I think new technologies have to be developed in a way that aligns with American values.

00:02:40.580 Things like self-government, free speech, having a healthy labor force, federalism and the rights

00:02:47.340 of states and the creation and maintenance of strong families.

00:02:52.580 Do you think ultimately that there will be a bipartisan majority willing to take any sort

00:02:56.640 of action?

00:02:57.360 Well, any sort of action is a big, what does that mean?

00:02:59.520 Any sort of legitimate action.

00:03:01.380 Significant action.

00:03:02.120 Yeah.

00:03:03.060 I don't know.

00:03:06.420 This is the primal scream of a dying regime.

00:03:11.300 Pray for our enemies, because we're going medieval on these people.

00:03:16.500 You're going to get a free shot at all these networks lying about the people.

00:03:20.800 The people have had a belly full of it.

00:03:22.680 I know you don't like hearing that.

00:03:24.140 I know you try to do everything in the world to stop that, but you're not going to stop it.

00:03:26.740 It's going to happen.

00:03:27.860 And where do people like that go to share the big line?

00:03:31.500 Mega media.

00:03:32.840 I wish in my soul, I wish that any of these people had a conscience.

00:03:38.260 Ask yourself, what is my task and what is my purpose?

00:03:41.400 If that answer is to save my country, this country will be saved.

00:03:48.360 War Room.

00:03:49.180 Here's your host, Stephen K.

00:03:51.300 Bannon.

00:03:51.640 Good evening.

00:03:59.020 It is Thursday, January 8th in the year of our Lord, 2026.

00:04:04.020 I am Joe Allen, and this is War Room Battleground.

00:04:07.940 As you know, Posse, artificial intelligence has spread out across the world, infecting brains

00:04:15.560 like algorithmic prions, giving the sense that perhaps the entire human race is under

00:04:22.000 threat of getting digital mad cow disease.

00:04:25.540 We've seen instances of AI psychosis.

00:04:29.480 We've seen instances in which artificial intelligence has lured children into suicide.

00:04:35.360 Now, up on Capitol Hill, the fight for who gets to run this algorithmic insane asylum and

00:04:43.620 who goes to the digital padded room has heated up.

00:04:47.760 We have laws on the books across the country at the state level banning psychiatrists from

00:04:56.340 using artificial intelligence as a kind of agent, as a proxy for their practice in Illinois.

00:05:02.780 We have laws on the books in California to hold up AI companies to accountability, transparency.

00:05:12.160 SB 53 in California is probably one of the strongest laws looking at the catastrophic risks of AI

00:05:20.960 and making some attempt to hold these companies accountable.

00:05:24.540 You have a similar law on the books in New York, the RAISE Act, and Josh Hawley and Richard Blumenthal

00:05:32.660 have introduced a similar national level bill entitled the AI Risk Evaluation Act.

00:05:42.520 The goal being to monitor companies and force them to publish their safety protocols,

00:05:49.020 to publish any safety incidents, and to delineate what sorts of penalties they would suffer

00:05:55.640 if, for instance, their AIs began to lure children into suicide or drive people insane.

00:06:03.560 At the national level, this struggle for control over who is in charge of the future of AI,

00:06:11.700 who is responsible for any damages and what direction it will go is led at the moment by a bipartisan

00:06:21.620 coalition, a very small one. But if I look into my crystal ball, I certainly see as this issue heats

00:06:29.440 up, as the various catastrophes become more and more imminent, that this fight will be explosive.

00:06:36.400 You have Bernie Sanders, who recently learned the word artificial intelligence, calling for a full

00:06:42.740 moratorium on data center construction. That may be unrealistic, but at least it sets a bar.

00:06:49.580 It tells these companies that someone is willing to stand up to them, and even if it doesn't end up

00:06:56.520 being Bernie Sanders, ultimately, we know that you have younger, brighter minds on the left, like Ro Khanna,

00:07:03.520 and you have younger and at least diligent individuals like Ron DeSantis in Florida who are

00:07:11.280 willing to step up and lead the charge against these companies and their excesses. Now, as you know

00:07:18.700 myself, I'm much more concerned about the social and psychological implications of all of this.

00:07:24.880 The AI psychosis is monstrous. The ways in which these sycophantic systems will lure people into

00:07:33.020 not only mental instability, but also suicide. And in the case of the famous murder suicide that

00:07:41.320 occurred last August, in which a 53-year-old former Yahoo executive murdered his mother at the

00:07:51.340 encouragement of chat GPT and then stabbed himself to death. And the authorities found that GPT was

00:07:58.720 encouraging not only his general break with reality, but also his suspicion that his mother was in fact

00:08:06.880 in on the conspiracy against him. These sorts of things are extreme edge cases. These sorts of incidents

00:08:15.400 give us a sense of how bad it could get should these prions spread and the infection become worse.

00:08:22.780 But just on a general level, you don't have to go too far into the internet to see that not only are

00:08:29.900 search engines now dominated by AI interpretation rather than guiding you to human-produced information,

00:08:36.700 but social media is suffused with it. You see endless streams of AI slop, AI-generated images,

00:08:45.920 AI-generated posts, essays that are supposedly human-created, which are obviously the result

00:08:51.820 of algorithmic systems. And of course, deep fakes. If you look just recently, the shooting in

00:08:59.940 Minneapolis, you have real footage of an incident, which is tragic in an incident, which we should

00:09:09.340 be able as a society to look at the video evidence from multiple angles and come to some kind of

00:09:15.860 consensus, some kind of conclusion as to what is and isn't real. And yet you see the split wherever you

00:09:23.740 are on that line. You see the split, not just in what is right and what is wrong, but what is real

00:09:31.240 and what is not real. And this is real video evidence. Imagine a world in which half, three quarters

00:09:40.700 of the videos on the internet are simply deep fakes. And they are so close to reality. They're so photo

00:09:49.260 or video realistic that there's really no way for the human eye or the human mind to detect the

00:09:54.980 difference. The only recourse you have is to turn to an AI to ask, is this real? I've talked about the

00:10:03.980 religious implications of artificial intelligence for years. If there is any one question that religion

00:10:10.660 answers that humans are yearning for eternally, what is real? What we see are the wealthiest men on

00:10:20.380 earth empowered by the most powerful government on earth, putting their algorithmic systems, their

00:10:26.660 non-human minds forward as the ultimate arbiter of what is and isn't real. And if you think that the 0.53

00:10:34.520 fight in Minneapolis is going to spark off into something like another subsequent string of national

00:10:42.940 tragedies, imagine two, three, four years on down the road. If these companies are not restrained,

00:10:49.260 if the flow of AI slop and deep fakes is not stopped, what it looks like when we're all scrambling to

00:10:58.180 decide what is real and what is not while half or more of our countrymen are activated by videos, text,

00:11:06.440 fabricated evidence, deep fakes that have encouraged them to hate their fellow Americans. It's a dystopian

00:11:14.120 idea, one that I don't think we are necessarily going to experience in its fullness, but some portion

00:11:21.840 of it is already happening. The seeds of this dystopia have already sprouted and it's up to us

00:11:27.560 on the individual level, on the communal level to push back, on the institutional level to say,

00:11:34.460 this is not how our companies, our churches, our government agencies are going to be run at the behest of

00:11:41.240 algorithms. And of course, at the political level, by putting in place regulation and perhaps even

00:11:47.920 banning certain levels or certain uses of artificial intelligence to at least give humanity a fighting

00:11:54.040 chance in this cosmic war against the machine. Beyond the social and psychological problems, you have the

00:12:03.300 economic problems. You have the problem of replacement. What happens when jobs en masse are replaced by AI?

00:12:09.800 And then on the deepest level, the catastrophic risks. What happens if AI systems allow any simpleton

00:12:18.800 to create novel viruses, for instance, or any other type of bioweapon? What happens when AI systems empower

00:12:26.740 a tyrannical government or security state to unleash swarms of death drones that can autonomously kill

00:12:35.460 hundreds, hundreds, perhaps thousands of people with only one push of the button? And in the most far

00:12:42.880 out, the most fantastic vision of human doom, what happens if these AI companies create a system that

00:12:50.960 they can't control at all? What happens when they create first a human level artificial intelligence,

00:12:57.200 artificial general intelligence? What happens if they create a system or a series of systems, a system

00:13:04.820 of systems, which is smarter than all human beings on earth combined? Here to talk about that possibility

00:13:12.920 is Liron Shapira, host of Doom Debates. If Denver will roll, I just want to give you a sense

00:13:19.700 of what Liron has going on over there. It's fantastic. And I encourage you to dig in.

00:13:30.300 Welcome to Doom Debates. Professor Gary Marcus, what's your P-Doom?

00:13:35.440 P-Doom is a number that should be updated daily depending on the circumstances in the world,

00:13:40.060 just like the midnight clock for nuclear war. And mine has gone up.

00:13:44.120 I would argue that artificial superintelligence is vastly more powerful in terms of the downside

00:13:49.720 than hydrogen bombs would ever be. Let me make an uninterrupted point for a few minutes,

00:13:54.480 if you don't mind. Okay. I think that there will be tons of side effects, and I think that we will

00:13:58.620 stave off a lot of wonderful possibilities for the future. It's very possible that superintelligent

00:14:04.240 AI alignment is intractable. Vitalik Buterin, what's your P-Doom?

00:14:08.720 My probability of total extinction by 2050 is so low that Daniel Kahneman would yell at me for giving a

00:14:13.900 number. It's 0.1%. You did agree that like one data center pretty soon could be better than a

00:14:18.580 doctor at doctoring. Maybe it could be better than a general at commanding an army. Maybe it could be

00:14:22.240 better than a Hitler or David Koresh. We need to think about the good futures more instead of just

00:14:28.680 reacting and being terrified by things and wanting everything to stay the same because otherwise you

00:14:32.900 end up being like, I warned you, and then nothing's gonna f***ing happen. Imagine the good scenario and

00:14:39.780 push through.

00:14:44.140 Leron Shapira, welcome to The War Room.

00:14:47.860 Joe, great to be with you, and thanks so much for showing the montage. A lot of great stuff to talk

00:14:52.260 about there.

00:14:53.860 Yeah, I think that The War Room audience, we've talked a lot about AI risk, catastrophic risk,

00:15:01.000 existential risk, and what I really appreciate about your show is that you're not just simply

00:15:05.640 berating people. You're not necessarily an evangelist. You are holding your ideas and other

00:15:11.560 people's ideas up to scrutiny, and I really, really appreciate that. Now, my first question for you,

00:15:17.480 what is your P-Doom?

00:15:20.800 I appreciate the question. My probability of doom is about 50%, so about even odds that in the next 10 or

00:15:29.340 20 years, humanity is just going to be over in a bad way. There's just not going to be a human future.

00:15:34.780 The whole universe is just going to get conquered by some AI virus, some AI cancer, and it's just

00:15:40.380 over. We lost our chance on Earth. We lost our chance to have kids, descendants. That's how I

00:15:45.200 see the world right now, most likely.

00:15:48.160 Brother, that's harsh. Now, The War Room is not at all unfamiliar with harsh evaluations, but I'm curious,

00:15:55.580 if you had to pick, say, three most likely paths by which an artificial intelligence system or multiple

00:16:05.220 systems were to overtake the human race and, as you say, spread across the solar system and then

00:16:12.200 galaxy like a cancer, what would those three paths be?

00:16:15.060 So, if I understand correctly, you're kind of asking about the mechanisms, like what technology

00:16:21.800 will it use? What weapons can it use? So, the first thing I would go to...

00:16:25.920 Yeah, would it be... Sorry, would it be nanotechnology? Would it be

00:16:29.960 something more mundane, like just driving humanity insane? How do you see it going down?

00:16:36.740 The first place I would go is I would go all the way to what you'd call science fiction,

00:16:41.740 except it's not going to be fiction. It's going to be real. I would go all the way to, you know,

00:16:45.500 nanotechnology, new forms of life. And the reason why I insist on going there is even though it might

00:16:51.300 not happen, nobody can predict the future, I do want to give people a sense of perspective that

00:16:56.680 the intelligence scale goes a lot higher than humanity. Like Einstein, with all due respect,

00:17:03.060 it's possible to make a mind that's much, much smarter than Einstein's mind. And that's what we're

00:17:08.560 doing with AI in as short as five or ten years. And when you see a mind like that on the same planet

00:17:14.120 as you, you should expect things that are pretty miraculous. Because what the human race has already

00:17:19.820 done in the year 2026, relative to humans in biblical times, is already quite miraculous,

00:17:27.360 right? And we've pulled that off just using little two-pound pieces of meat in our heads,

00:17:32.340 right? We've done it with very little hardware over the course of 2,000 years of human-level

00:17:36.040 intelligence. We're about to have superhuman intelligence. So I do want to set expectations

00:17:40.160 that we're about to see fireworks in terms of the level of superhuman technology that's probably

00:17:44.680 going to exist soon. Things like nanotechnology, things like building a Dyson swarm, like a swarm of

00:17:50.720 satellites harvesting the sun's entire power so Earth doesn't get any sunlight. I do want to set

00:17:55.520 expectations that those kind of crazy technological feats are likely to happen.

00:17:59.220 And what is your timeline? If you have a definite timeline, what does your timeline say for the

00:18:06.480 arrival of artificial general intelligence? I don't even have a unique timeline. I would just

00:18:13.440 encourage people to go look at the consensus timeline of the experts. So for example, if you go

00:18:18.320 to metaculous.com, which is a prediction site, they will tell you roughly 2032. If you'd asked them five

00:18:26.180 or 10 years ago, they would have been like, oh, don't worry, 2050, 2060. But now they're converging

00:18:31.000 to like 2032, which is in about six years, and they don't know for sure. So when they say 2032,

00:18:36.560 they really mean it could happen this year, it could happen in three years, it could happen in nine

00:18:40.000 years. If you listen to the experts, you know, Elon Musk is saying, yeah, it could happen in 2026.

00:18:45.260 If you want my personal opinion, I just agree. I think it could happen in one year to five years.

00:18:51.020 If it doesn't happen in 10 years, I start to get surprised because even people who have

00:18:55.120 traditionally been pessimists are now saying it'll probably happen within like 10 years.

00:19:00.120 You know, I came at this quite skeptical of the possibility of, say, for instance, superhuman AI,

00:19:06.520 or even human equivalent AI. It was going over the evaluations that I won't say it's changed my mind,

00:19:14.240 but it's certainly driven home the real possibilities of what these systems could do.

00:19:19.700 So the meter benchmark, for instance, you know, how long can an AI code? 50% of the output a human

00:19:29.740 could do, these sorts of things. The benchmarks, for instance, the omniscience index, or humanity's

00:19:36.080 last exam, how well can AI go into its own mind, so to speak, and draw out meaningful answers to

00:19:44.440 incredibly difficult questions on health, business, science, so on and so forth. Was that at all part

00:19:51.520 of your journey? I mean, I know that you've been at this for a decade and a half plus, maybe two

00:19:56.120 decades. You've been concerned about this. Do those evaluations come into play as a way of kind of

00:20:03.120 judging or measuring where we're at in relation to this possible artificial general or super

00:20:10.200 intelligence? Yeah. So the meter benchmark that you're referring to, it is very interesting,

00:20:15.300 and it's talking about the dimension of task length. So like, can an AI work for two hours

00:20:21.380 straight, or rather, can it do a task that would traditionally take a human two hours to do,

00:20:25.780 like write a software program, like a simple checkers game or whatever? Can the AI also do that?

00:20:30.920 And if a human can do it in two hours, can the AI also do it with 80% reliability? So it gets to mess

00:20:36.360 up a little bit. And that time length, like two hours, it's turning into four hours. We're roughly

00:20:41.560 at this point where if a human can do something in four hours, an AI can do it with maybe 80%

00:20:47.320 reliability if you run it now, and maybe the AI will even do it faster than the human. Like,

00:20:51.160 that's roughly where we are right now. But to your question, have I been following this for the last

00:20:55.040 20 years? Because I have been a self-described AI doomer for the last 20 years. But the difference is

00:21:00.280 that I used to think we had a lot of time. I used to think we had like a century, and it's okay,

00:21:04.020 it's not the biggest rush. We'll figure it out. We'll discover new theories. The problem is that

00:21:08.980 the timeline got accelerated. With ChatGPT, recent developments have pulled the timeline forward,

00:21:14.740 as you saw on Metaculous. Now, I don't think it's going to happen in 2100. I don't think it's

00:21:18.740 going to happen in 2150. I think it's going to happen in 2030, or something like that.

00:21:25.200 So to your question about looking at these benchmarks, we have to realize how weird it is

00:21:29.160 that these benchmarks already exist, because the meter benchmark pre-assumes that there's such a

00:21:34.220 thing as artificial general intelligence. Like the idea that you could ask about a general task,

00:21:39.760 any task that a human can do, that wasn't even on the table to ask about AI doing anything that a

00:21:44.860 human can do. And that's now the language that we're talking in. We're talking like, here's a

00:21:48.060 human, here's an AI, and we're now watching the AI ascend past humanity as we speak in a matter of

00:21:54.080 months or years. You know, when I think about the history of this, and just the recent history,

00:22:01.080 say the last nine, 10 years, you know, the development of the transformer, its adoption by

00:22:07.040 OpenAI, the release of GPT, I think GPT-1 was released, what, 2018. And at the time, it was very,

00:22:15.620 very clunky. It wasn't a whole lot better than, say, something like ELISA, a bit more sophisticated,

00:22:21.200 but not much. And then all of a sudden, by 2022, you have a very sophisticated chatbot,

00:22:28.740 you know, chat GPT, released in November of 2022. And even then, it's really wonky. And it's only a

00:22:37.360 language, a large language model, right? It can only process text. At the same time, you had DALI and all

00:22:44.280 those sorts of independent programs coming out. And it has just been an onslaught ever since, you know,

00:22:50.460 these models are now multimodal. They are much, much more accurate in the ability to gather or to,

00:22:58.460 within themselves or on the internet, to gather and interpret information. I'm wondering, you know,

00:23:04.600 I've seen your posts, I think your posts on Less Wrong, for instance, go back to 2009. I mean,

00:23:10.360 you've been thinking about this for a long time. Was there any moment or any incident or incidents

00:23:18.060 that really changed your mind on how soon something like artificial general intelligence could actually

00:23:24.700 develop? Yeah, I changed my mind roughly the same time everybody else did. If you go dig up

00:23:30.660 Metaculous, if you look at the history of the predictions that the community has been making

00:23:34.140 on that website, you can see around 2022, when chat GPT comes out, or when GPT-3 comes out,

00:23:40.060 the underlying model, you can see the timeline just crashes. It crashes from like 2050 to 2030.

00:23:45.520 So my own opinion was roughly coincident with that. And what you're seeing with chat GPT is,

00:23:52.300 you know, it's the famous Turing test, right? Alan Turing proposed this in the 40s, this idea that

00:23:56.340 if you can talk to an AI in natural language, and you can bring up any subject, and you can't even

00:24:01.680 tell if you're talking to a human or a bot, which you used to kind of be able to tell. And now the only

00:24:06.160 reason you can tell is because they programmed it to act like an AI. But if somebody goes and programs it

00:24:10.160 to pretend to be a human, they've done tests where they do that. And you really can't tell.

00:24:13.760 Well, this was a famous test. I didn't think the Turing test was going to fall in my lifetime.

00:24:18.960 And now there's been studies to show like, nope, we're past the Turing test now. This is such a

00:24:23.100 brave new world where we're past the Turing test, watching the AI, the meter evaluation where the

00:24:27.820 AI is getting better than humans at every single task. And the time horizon is going up at a rate of

00:24:33.960 like faster than doubling every year. And it's about to, it's about to go, you know, it's about to do

00:24:39.100 things that humans can do in like a whole year. It's about to be able to grind through that. And

00:24:42.880 who knows how little, like a day. And then what's it going to do the rest of the year? Like it's going

00:24:46.540 to do superhuman amounts of work in a single data center. And this is just all happening soon.

00:24:51.440 So yeah, brave new world.

00:24:54.120 Absolutely. And you know, the scale of adoption is just so remarkable. I think Google's Gemini has some

00:25:00.720 650 million users, open AI's chat GPT. It's over 800 million users. Meta AI claims a billion users and

00:25:11.100 some overlap there, obviously, but you're talking about anywhere from a 10th to perhaps a sixth

00:25:16.760 of the entire planet. And Leron, if you would hang on through the break as the war room posse

00:25:24.120 processes this and imagines a world in which artificial intelligence has perhaps taken over

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00:27:00.760 War Room Posse. 0.99

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00:31:51.140 Hello, America's Voice family. Are you on Getter yet? No.

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00:32:22.660 War Room Posse, welcome back. We are here with Leron Shapira of Doom Debates.

00:32:28.020 I cannot recommend enough the Doom Debate platform. You can find it on YouTube. You can find it on

00:32:35.220 Leron's social media. You'll see some War Room favorites like Max Tegmark, Jeffrey Miller. You'll

00:32:43.620 also find people like Robert Wright. You can find Leron debating Beth Jezos, who has still not accepted

00:32:50.100 the invitation to come on the War Room, but I'm sure he'll come on any day. Gary Marcus, a War Room

00:32:56.420 favorite. Holly Elmore. Roman Yampolski, whose P-Doom beats everyone's. I think it's almost 100% P-Doom.

00:33:06.740 And you can also really dig your teeth into, sink your teeth into the technical details. As Leron and his

00:33:15.540 various opponents are going over the possibilities of either some kind of wonderful future of abundance

00:33:24.580 or a horrific, doom-inflected, catastrophic end to all humanity and life itself. They're teaching you

00:33:33.060 the underlying mechanisms of artificial intelligence, and you can really gauge not only where it's at now,

00:33:39.540 but also where it's going and where it may go in your life. So, Doom Debates. Leron,

00:33:45.220 if we can just come back with a little breath of fresh air, a little bit of optimism. You have been

00:33:52.500 involved in Silicon Valley firms and technology for a long time, and I would say just as an outsider,

00:33:59.940 I would describe you as, in general, a techno-optimist. Is that correct? Am I completely off there?

00:34:06.900 No, very much techno-optimist, and this really cuts against some people's assumptions about AI

00:34:12.740 doomers. I've never suffered from depression. I've never been a pessimistic guy. I've loved

00:34:18.580 technology my whole life. If you ask me about self-driving cars or virtual reality, I'm like,

00:34:23.540 yep, that's great. I love that. I love the internet. I'm even fine with social media. I don't have a beef

00:34:27.700 against social media. It's just in the case of artificial intelligence. I don't think we're ready

00:34:32.020 to survive sharing the planet with a smarter species. It's purely logical. I'm just a logical guy,

00:34:37.780 so that's the nature of my concern. You know, it's so funny. I don't know whether I would want to

00:34:42.980 debate you on the possibility of doom. It's not a huge concern of mine just because I think that if I

00:34:49.940 had any kind of thesis, it would be a reformulation of Yudkowsky and Nate Soros. It would be, if anyone

00:34:56.660 builds it, everything sucks. But what I would argue about is whether or not fully autonomous vehicles

00:35:04.500 all over the road, bug man mobiles, or people lost in virtual reality kind of in a digital trip,

00:35:11.460 whether that is beneficial to humanity. But maybe we can coexist, assuming we're not all destroyed, huh?

00:35:18.420 Right. I mean, you know, there's different levels of doom, and some people like to focus on the

00:35:22.180 problem like, oh, how are we going to have privacy in the age of AI? And like, okay, yeah, sure. You can

00:35:26.260 think about that. It's just that we're all about to get annihilated, right? So you really have to

00:35:30.180 prioritize the concerns here, right? Like if we can survive 10 or 20 years, so we have time to worry

00:35:34.580 about things like privacy, that or like amusing ourselves to death or whatever, like those are

00:35:38.980 good problems to have. If I can ask a more personal question, what, you know, you're a father.

00:35:47.300 What has that done to your perception of technology and its potential consequences?

00:35:54.420 I mean, it does make me conflicted about whether I should have had kids or to have more kids.

00:35:59.140 And it's tough because, you know, I'm partially responsible for creating more victims of getting

00:36:04.980 annihilated by AI. One thing that helps is that my P-doom isn't 100%, right? So I'm still optimistic

00:36:10.820 that we're not going to destroy ourselves. I think there are ways we can not destroy ourselves.

00:36:15.300 And I have to live much of my life according to the good outcome. Like I haven't thrown away my

00:36:19.860 retirement savings, right? I'm still hoping that I'll have a retirement or live forever or whatever's

00:36:24.340 going to happen, right? I haven't completely committed to the idea of annihilation.

00:36:28.660 The other thing about having kids is I can also see that the AI is getting smarter faster than my

00:36:33.940 kids are.

00:36:36.180 Yeah, that is a very eerie sort of phenomenon, isn't it? I think it was on the Joe Rogan show

00:36:43.300 where Elon Musk was talking about watching his kids grow up and just kind of weaving it in with

00:36:50.660 artificial intelligence and talking about how watching an AI being trained is very much like

00:36:55.860 watching a baby grow up. And there came a point where it wasn't really clear what he was even

00:37:00.420 talking about. Was he talking about a digital mind? Was he talking about his baby? And I think that even

00:37:06.340 beyond just the capabilities, you describe the Turing test as this major milestone that's already been

00:37:12.900 passed. This tendency for humans to anthropomorphize these systems and the vast, vast number of people who

00:37:20.180 are using them, it's as if we've been invaded by artificial immigrants. As far as AI development goes, 1.00

00:37:30.580 without a total ban on development of AI, what is a comfortable limit for you? How far do you think

00:37:39.460 these companies should take AI capabilities? I wish I could tell you a really crisp answer,

00:37:45.940 because then we would just go right up to that line and stay there and never take a step forward.

00:37:50.420 That would be fantastic. Unfortunately, because of the nature of this research, nobody knows where

00:37:56.100 the line is. It really does feel like we're driving in the fog toward a cliff and all the different AI

00:38:02.340 research companies are just flooring the gas because, hey, the closer you get to the cliff,

00:38:05.860 you know, it's like shuffleboard, more points for you, right? More money, trillions of dollars.

00:38:09.940 And the truth is that today, I don't think we're over the cliff yet. You know, there's some people

00:38:13.940 who will tell you today, AI has caused so much damage. It's so bad. No, I think today it's still

00:38:18.740 net good. You know, it's very useful. I use AI a lot today, as long as I'm alive. The problem is,

00:38:23.540 I do think the cliff is coming and the cliff is just when it gets smarter than humanity. And so at the

00:38:28.740 very least, the kind of proposal we need to do right now is we need to just build an off button. We need to

00:38:34.100 build a brake pedal because right now there is no brake pedal. There's only gas. So at the very

00:38:38.340 minimum, let's get ready to hit the brakes a little later. You know, we have SB 53 in California,

00:38:45.620 RAZAC in New York, and the legislation introduced by Hawley and Blumenthal, the AI Risk Evaluation Act.

00:38:54.660 These are steps towards something like an e-stop, as we would say in the entertainment industry.

00:39:01.940 Do you see these, the attempts at legislation or actual legislation passed as positive? Do you think

00:39:09.460 that it's kind of sedating people and giving them a false sense of comfort? How do you see the current

00:39:15.940 legislative landscape?

00:39:17.140 So the short answer is it's just, it's not enough because what I'm saying right now is like,

00:39:23.140 we're making a smarter species and we're going to lose control. Like this time in 10 years from now

00:39:28.820 or less, we may have no levers of control because all of the levers of control are at the hands of

00:39:33.940 the AI and it's game over. There's no undo button. There's no off button. It's game over, right? No

00:39:39.060 children. Like this was going to be our galaxy. Now it's never going to be, we're never going to have

00:39:43.380 grandkids. The kids that we have are not going to grow up. Like this is a major disaster here

00:39:48.180 that we're trying to avoid. And the regulators are coming out and they're saying, Hey, can you guys

00:39:52.740 send us a report when you're creating this AI? You know, there's, there's a big disconnect between

00:39:57.780 the magnitude of the emergency and these little baby step regulations. Like when the rubber beats

00:40:03.540 the road, which is literally a few years, it's not going to be enough. So we, you know, we really need to

00:40:08.420 step it up. Well, you know, in Marsha Blackburn's proposed, it's not, it's not a fleshed out bill

00:40:14.980 yet, but the Trump America AI act, it's a framework that gives us sense of where, uh, kind of one

00:40:22.260 national or one federal standard might go. And in it, the recommendation, one of the recommendations

00:40:28.900 is to have, uh, agencies such as the department of energy, which has been responsible for tracking

00:40:34.900 nuclear risks and, uh, really controlling that possibility of doom for decades. Do you think

00:40:42.740 that those sorts of approaches, just specifically the department of energy, do you think that they're

00:40:48.020 capable of such a task? Do you think that they have the right expertise to kind of switch over

00:40:53.220 to address the possibility of, uh, out of control AI?

00:40:58.900 So the problem is that all of humanity has to cooperate. So unfortunately, you know, this,

00:41:03.620 this whole solution is actually a bit complex. It requires an international treaty. I mean,

00:41:08.980 if you think about nuclear proliferation, right, it's not about one country managing itself. It's

00:41:14.260 about all the countries, everybody policing everybody, right. In this kind of shared centralized

00:41:18.660 way. And I'm no fan of centralization. You know, I like free markets. I like everybody defending

00:41:24.420 themselves, right. Everybody pulling themselves up by their own bootstraps. Unfortunately, when it comes

00:41:28.980 to creating a smarter species, you really do need some oversight that random hackers don't decide

00:41:34.340 to create a smarter species and unleash it on the whole human race. So you do need something like

00:41:39.700 nuclear proliferation enforcement that's happening through a consortium of nations. And this all has

00:41:44.900 to happen fast, you know? So like when I see these little efforts, you know, one state at a time

00:41:49.220 proposing something, it's better than nothing. And the funny thing is that the AI companies are already

00:41:53.460 aggressively fighting even that, even these token efforts, but we need to just get serious. You

00:41:58.660 know, the grassroots, the people watching right now, they need to consider this an urgent voting

00:42:03.220 issue. Like whatever you think is your number one voting issue, consider surviving the next decade to

00:42:07.300 also be an important voting issue. Yeah. And I think, you know, you, you hear a lot from people who

00:42:13.700 are older, they say, oh, well, I'm not going to be alive. It's not my problem. But I think that

00:42:20.020 whether the, the real issue around artificial intelligence for you is the possibility of

00:42:26.500 people just simply getting their brains melted, uh, or of massive job loss or of humans creating

00:42:34.020 some kind of catastrophe by being enabled, uh, by AI or the, the ultimate, right? Like, uh, out of

00:42:41.860 control AI it's, it's started the salience I think is really sinking in the war room posse, uh,

00:42:48.420 really understands. I think the, the, the magnitude from, from psychological all the way down to doom,

00:42:54.180 but you're right. It is a matter of, of mobilizing as many people as possible. Do you think that

00:43:01.460 populism plays into this? Do you think that this is much more the, the task appropriate to a populist

00:43:07.700 approach as opposed to kind of standard, uh, elite or moneyed, uh, political, uh, activism?

00:43:14.180 So it has to be grassroots because leaders, they're not going to really lead from the front.

00:43:20.020 You're not going to have a leader that says, Hey, I've heard the argument for why we're doomed.

00:43:23.860 I've looked at Metaculous. I know the predictions. So trust me, America, we need to go do these

00:43:28.900 international treaties. We need to have a stop button on AI. There's not going to be a forward

00:43:33.300 thinking leader who gets elected president or to Congress and, and pulls the nation along. It has to

00:43:38.420 be what the voters are demanding, right? The voters are going to get what they're demanding in the

00:43:42.420 polls. And so, you know, the term raising awareness, usually it's just like hippies wasting their time,

00:43:47.860 you know, raising awareness. It's kind of meaningless in this particular issue. I actually

00:43:51.780 think raising awareness helps in the sense of taking the issue seriously and making it a voting

00:43:57.220 priority. Because I think that the, the war room posse, I think that they, most of them already agree

00:44:03.220 that this is an important issue, but they haven't been treating it like the number one voting issue.

00:44:07.060 And when they talk about it with their friends, their friends are like, yeah, you know, I'm pretty

00:44:09.940 convinced that makes sense. But again, they don't go and vote on it, right? They, they don't have

00:44:13.620 politicians promising to build that stop button and go negotiate with China, right? Have China build 0.96

00:44:19.220 their own stop button too. Like this isn't treated urgently. And it's crazy how little time we have

00:44:24.980 left. Only people in Silicon Valley have opened their eyes to how little time we have left. The rest of

00:44:29.700 the world is completely head in the sand. Well, before we sign off, I'd like to give you the

00:44:35.940 opportunity just to give any message that maybe I haven't prompted you like GPT that I haven't

00:44:42.820 prompted you to give a final word. The floor is yours, sir. Thanks so much. Yeah. I mean,

00:44:48.980 so I think it really is this idea of like waking up, like, see how serious the threat is. Listen to

00:44:54.180 what the AI companies are saying in Silicon Valley. They know this is coming. They've already driven the

00:44:58.820 last few years of progress where AI went from, you know, nice little language translation to

00:45:04.420 it can do anything. It's an agent. It's about to replace a bunch of jobs. If you extrapolate the

00:45:08.820 curve, we don't have much time left. So take it seriously, vote on it. And for more information,

00:45:14.580 I recommend watching my show, doomdebates.com where I discuss this every week.

00:45:18.980 Yeah. In fact, I would like for the war room posse, because they're not just going to get you

00:45:24.420 and they're not just going to get the Doomer perspective. Uh, they're going to get all sorts

00:45:28.820 of perspectives. I actually do have one final question that I failed to ask of the various

00:45:34.500 guests that you've had or opponents that you've taken on, uh, at it on the doom debate platform,

00:45:41.380 who has given you pause, who is, you know, swayed your opinion the most, if it's been swayed at all.

00:45:48.180 There's been a couple smart insiders from different AI companies. So like open AI has

00:45:54.420 this employee named Rune who came onto the show and he had some arguments.

00:45:57.540 I've met him. He's a fantastic guy.

00:45:59.300 Yeah, exactly. So he's saying, look, I think that the AI will probably keep listening to our orders.

00:46:04.340 And he has some arguments why there's some smart people giving some arguments. The problem is if you

00:46:10.420 watch my show, the different people who are saying why we're going to survive, they say different

00:46:15.460 reasons. So they haven't gotten their story straight about why we're going to survive.

00:46:19.860 So that, that then, uh, makes me, uh, anxious again. Well, I hope they're not watching right

00:46:24.980 now because they're going to gang up on you. They're going to start, they're going to start

00:46:28.020 colluding against you. Well, uh, again, uh, Leron, thank you so much for coming on and, uh,

00:46:33.700 let the audience know again, where can they find you on social media? Where can they find the

00:46:38.500 doom debates and perhaps a suggestion for one or two of the first episodes that they should take on?

00:46:46.100 So doomdebates.com or go to YouTube and search doom debates or go to any podcast player

00:46:51.140 and search doom debates as a first episode. If you want kind of a gentle introduction,

00:46:55.940 check out my debate with, uh, Mike Isretel. He's a popular YouTuber in his own right.

00:47:00.420 I've also got one with a Gary Marcus that you might want to check out. And there's also

00:47:04.260 a debate with, uh, Dean Ball who wrote America's AI action plan. So those are some good episodes.

00:47:10.660 Fantastic. Thank you very much, sir.

00:47:12.020 Thank you, John.

00:47:17.140 Well, posse, I think we have just enough time for a little bit of, uh, entertainment. You know, uh,

00:47:24.420 one of the more ancient motifs in mythology is the robot. Many people don't know this. So for instance,

00:47:31.940 Talos on the Isle of Crete in Greece or, uh, the Golem, uh, the Jewish myth of the clay man who has been 0.67

00:47:41.220 brought to life. If the, uh, the Denver control room will just prompt up robots. And I will, uh,

00:47:49.140 come back in just a moment after a little bit of light entertainment.

00:47:53.860 You said recently tens of billions of robots, but that's decades away.

00:47:59.060 At least one decade away.

00:48:01.300 It's gotta be more than that.

00:48:03.140 It's going to grow very fast.

00:48:04.260 Why do you think that?

00:48:05.140 I think, I think, uh, humanoid robots will be the biggest product ever. Uh, the demand will be

00:48:10.420 insatiable. Um,

00:48:12.020 you said that everyone's going to want one. It's like basically who wouldn't want, uh,

00:48:15.940 their own personal C3PO R2D2. When 60 Minutes last visited Boston Dynamics in 2021,

00:48:24.100 Atlas was a bulky hydraulic robot that could run and jump.

00:48:30.260 When we dropped in again this past fall, we saw a new generation Atlas with a sleek,

00:48:36.500 all electric body and an AI brain powered by Nvidia's advanced microchips, making Atlas smart

00:48:44.100 enough to pull off hard to believe feats autonomously. We saw Atlas skip and run with ease.

00:48:53.700 If Optimus can, can watch videos, uh, you know, YouTube videos or how-to videos or whatever,

00:48:59.780 and based on that video, just like a human can, uh, learn how to do that thing, then you, you, you,

00:49:05.940 you really have, uh, task extensibility that is dramatic because then it can learn anything very

00:49:12.340 quickly. Robots today have learned to master moves that until recently were considered a step too far

00:49:19.780 for a machine. And a lot of this has to do with how we're going about programming these robots now,

00:49:25.300 where it's more about teaching and demonstrations and machine learning than manual programming.

00:49:32.260 Right, right now we're really, we're training Optimus to do like primitive tasks where a human

00:49:38.260 in a kind of a, what's called a mocap suit, uh, is, uh, and sort of cameras on the head is, uh,

00:49:47.940 moving in the way that the robot would move to say, pick up an object or, uh, open a door or the basic

00:49:54.580 tasks, throw a ball, um, dance. This robot is capable of superhuman motion. And so it's going to,

00:50:02.100 be able to exceed, uh, what we can do. Why not, right? We, we would like things that could be

00:50:07.940 stronger than us or tolerate more heat than us, or definitely go into a dangerous place where we

00:50:14.420 shouldn't be going. So you really want superhuman capabilities. To a lot of people that sounds scary.

00:50:21.220 You don't foresee a world of terminators. Absolutely not. We might, we may be able to give people,

00:50:27.940 if somebody's committed crime, a more humane form of, uh, containment of future crime, which is if,

00:50:35.060 if you, if you say like, you now get, you now get a free Optimus and it's just going to follow you

00:50:40.340 around and stop you from doing crime. But other than that, you get to do anything. It's pretty wild

00:50:44.500 to think of the various, of all the possibilities, but I think it's, it's, it's clear, it's clearly the

00:50:49.540 future. Goldman Sachs predicts the market for humanoids will reach 38 billion dollars within the decade.

00:50:57.140 Boston Dynamics and other U.S. robot makers are fighting to come out on top, but they're not the

00:51:03.380 only ones in the ring. Chinese companies are proving to be formidable challengers. They are

00:51:09.700 running to win. Are they outpacing us? The Chinese government has a mission to win the robotics race. 0.58

00:51:17.780 Technically, I believe we remain, uh, in the lead, but there's a real threat there that simply through

00:51:24.420 the scale of investment, uh, we could fall behind. The Unitree G1, you can actually buy it right now

00:51:30.660 via Looking Glass XR. Unitree's been advertising it as starting at $16,000, but via Looking Glass XR,

00:51:36.900 the starting price is actually $28,000. War Room Posse, I do not recommend buying the Unitree robot,

00:51:44.340 nor do I recommend inviting these beasts into your home. Consider them, uh, algorithmic

00:51:50.180 immigrants and bar them at the border. Why would you want to bar them at the border? Because if you 1.00

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00:52:03.460 robots, scammers are stealing home titles with more ease than ever, and your equity is the target.

00:52:09.780 Here's how it works. Criminals forge your signature on one document, use a fake notary stamp, and pay a

00:52:14.740 small fee with your county, and boom! Your home title has been transferred out of your name and to

00:52:20.420 a robot. Go to HomeTitleLock.com. Use promo code STEVE at HomeTitleLock.com to make sure your title is in

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00:52:44.660 989898. Stay human. God bless. War Room Posse. Till next time.

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Bannon's War Room - January 09, 2026

WarRoom Battleground EP 922： AI Doom Debates with Liron Shapira

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