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00:14:05.000Back now to pick up the conversation with Joseph Robertson.
00:14:09.000Joseph, tell them, let's start at the back then and then work forward.
00:14:12.000Who's your eye on, do you think, for potential future defections from the Tory party to reform?
00:14:22.000Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, it could be any of them at this stage, I'll be quite frank.
00:14:27.000I mean, you know, there are there are some, of course, that simply won't be allowed into the party because of their past baggage or the political inclinations.
00:14:35.000And that's, you know, like I said, reform, whatever people may throw at it, it's very much out to destroy the Tory party, not simply let it abscond and enter.
00:14:46.000Nigel was completely aware of what can be pulled as it was in 2019 when you had essentially Tories infiltrating the Brexit party and then tearing it down from the inside.
00:14:57.000He will not let that happen again, I'm quite confident.
00:15:01.000And I think, you know, what we need to look at now is perhaps who would be most aligned with the Tory MPs who have already joined reform in Danny Kruger and Robert Jenrick.
00:15:12.000And if you look backwards, you know, I'm going to list some names, I don't necessarily think all of these will jump ship.
00:15:18.000But I think the ones that would be most aligned would be people like Esther McVeigh, Suella Braverman, to an extent younger MPs like Jack Rankin, obviously I mentioned Katie Lamb.
00:15:28.000And then you also have to look at some of the old stalwarts and wonder whether or not they're thinking about it.
00:15:33.000So Sir John Hayes would be another who is both Suella's former mentor and also formerly one of the safest seats in the country as far as the Tories are concerned.
00:15:44.000You know, there are others that I could think of, but I would imagine that those are some of the names that are on the lips of many people right now.
00:15:53.000You know, it's really a case of what do you want out of your political career at this point.
00:15:58.000I think for younger MPs like Jack Rankin and Katie, the fact is they don't have as much baggage as maybe some of these other names I'm mentioning.
00:16:05.000So if they jump ship, they could authentically be included in the reform movement in perhaps a way that some of these other older heads can't.
00:16:13.000So I would be looking for some of the younger ones who perhaps see a future in politics for the next 10, 15 years.
00:16:19.000And then maybe some like Suella who naturally align with reform's message.
00:16:24.000I'm going to ask about the youth vote in just a moment.
00:16:28.000But, you know, drawing out from what you're saying, you make a very important point for reform leadership right now,
00:16:35.000that some of these Tories aren't jumping ship for ideological reasons or even because they think Nigel Farage is going to make a better prime minister than Kemi Badnik.
00:16:46.000They're jumping ship because they want to continue their political careers and they see no viability of them doing that if they're kicked out of parliament at the next election.
00:16:58.000And some of the some of these guys are going to go over.
00:17:01.000You can very much sort of use the descriptor of rats leaving a sinking ship.
00:17:06.000But, you know, Nigel Farage is an old hand.
00:17:09.000You know, he's not going to he'll have the discernment to sort that out.
00:17:14.000He's going to actually add something to his movement and who's just coming on board for for opportunism.
00:17:19.000Tell me because you mentioned just now the youth element of the vote and you mentioned it before.
00:17:24.000What's going on in Generation Z, as the Americans like to say?
00:17:31.000Well, it's splitting into what I would consider to be a slightly more extreme left and right divide.
00:17:37.000I think it would be foolish to say that, you know, reform is dominating with the youth because that's not true.
00:17:44.000There is still a very, very strong contingent of left wing voters, particularly at university age.
00:17:50.000But they are going further to the left. They're not satisfied with the Labour Party.
00:17:54.000And quite frankly, if I was on the left, neither would I be because the Labour Party has drifted too far towards commercial interests to be of interest to genuine Marxists,
00:18:04.000whilst also remaining Marxist enough to not be of interest to old school Labour voters.
00:18:09.000So it's perfectly positioned itself to be the land of never.
00:18:13.000And so younger voters are turning more to parties like the Greens, perhaps in some cases like the Lib Dems and then, of course, Nigel.
00:18:21.000But there is a big gender disparity still in that age group.
00:18:24.000So young men are more likely to vote right leaning towards Nigel and young women tend to vote more to the left.
00:18:32.000So that's kind of where we see the biggest gap is in the gender divide.
00:18:38.000Where do I think that generation will go?
00:18:40.000Well, I think there is two trends that I look at which surprise me.
00:18:44.000I think even in the more left leaning vehicles, there's more emphasis on relationship and community building.
00:18:51.000Whether or not that translates to solving our natal crisis is yet to be seen.
00:18:56.000I don't think that will be the case, but there is at least a sense that there's a lack of community.
00:19:01.000And there's also something else quite interesting, which is less partying going on, less alcohol consumption in younger generations that we can see.
00:19:10.000Of course, drug usage is still prevalent, but there does seem to be a kind of growing trend that people are taking life more seriously at younger age again.
00:19:18.000And so I think that will probably lead to a more conservative flourishing maybe in the next five years or so as those younger people do settle down and have families.
00:19:27.000So I think the stats are pretty positive.
00:19:29.000The only big issue for me is whether or not we can try and outgrow this natal crisis that we have in the West.
00:19:35.000Something that we cover on our Wednesday show, and we're going to have to get you on our Wednesday show at some point, Joseph.
00:19:42.000Something that we talk about basically every week amongst Generation Z is the uptick between 18 to 24 year old men embracing Christianity.
00:19:57.000There is something like, you know, we covered the statistics just a couple of days ago.
00:20:02.000I think that it's nearly twice as much about 24% now of young guys in that age bracket say they go to church at least once a month.
00:20:11.000And that's literally twice the equivalent percentage amongst the equivalent aged females.
00:20:19.000Something's going on and that's going to have an influence at some point on politics as well.
00:20:27.000You know, one of the things that the war room is pretty focused on is the, say, the blue collar worker movement aspect.
00:20:39.000Certainly in the United States, something Steve Bannon's been pushing very heavily over the last 15 years, but also in the UK.
00:20:47.000Okay. Boris Johnson, despite his faults, did quite well to take over some of those Labour constituencies, historic Labour constituencies.
00:20:59.000Of course, he didn't know what to do with them.
00:21:01.000And it sort of emerged that his level, was it the levelling up?
00:21:08.000Electoral Gambit didn't really have much policy behind it.
00:21:11.000And of course, Keir Starmer took those seats back.
00:21:14.000But what hope do you see for presumably not the future, the Tory party, but a future reform government going in and taking definitively those traditionally Labour voting constituencies and actually delivering on an agenda for the regular working guy?
00:21:36.000Well, you've hit a nerve with me because I, for the viewers who probably won't know this, I was the director of a think tank between sort of 2020 and 2024, I guess, probably just 2023 really.
00:21:51.000But it was sort of filtering out at that point, which was set up back in 2019 to focus on two things, the work of Sir Roger Scruton, who may be familiar to some people, you know, sort of the last conservative philosopher who died in 2019 in the UK.
00:22:09.000And then also the secondary purpose was to look at conservatism in the red wall and how the 2019 win under Boris Johnson would translate to those areas and what we needed to do to get the country flourishing again.
00:22:21.000And we did a lot of policy work specifically on this, you know, those blue collar workers translating into Tory voters because they wanted to unlock prosperity.
00:22:31.000And we found a few things, they're still very socially conservative, they want to build families, they want to build businesses, very often very entrepreneurial, and they are not at all modern Labour voters.
00:22:44.940And so those people were very disappointed by the Tory party for obvious reasons, you know, taxes, mass migration, this slavish wedded mentality to net zero, all of these things helped crush the red wall, rather than raise it up a lack of commitment to infrastructure, proper, proper levelling up by transport, etc.
00:23:07.500So those people were kind of went into the ether, I don't think a lot of them really voted Labour, a lot did vote reform already in the last general election, but a lot just stayed at home.
00:23:18.500And Nigel's promises of opening up, you know, steel industries, getting fracking and going again, coal, all these key industries, which by the way, if you went to AI or tech, we desperately need because we're going to be so energy intensive trying to grow out those sectors.
00:23:33.900As a pipe dream suggests otherwise. That's what will unlock growth in the red wall.
00:23:39.240And I think voters are already quietly turning out. You know, you've just seen 29 councils apply across the country not to have elections again this year, at local level.
00:23:50.820This is something the Labour government is supporting and encouraging, and in my opinion, inducing to try and prevent reform winning councils off them all over the place.
00:23:59.340And the Tories are happily complying because the same will happen with their fewer councils that they hold.
00:24:07.140But this is the big question. How much will the red wall come out to vote?
00:24:11.620I personally think that they will pour out for Nigel in the next election, and I think we will end up having an even higher vote share than is predicted by the pollsters.
00:24:19.780OK, let me build on that, because we've got like 90 seconds left and ask you this, because we haven't really spoken about the Labour Party vis-a-vis the Tory defections.
00:24:33.180How do you think the Labour Party should be looking at this and doing the hemorrhaging of the Tory presence in the House of Commons right now?
00:26:16.200But it's not just about that. It's about free speech, the crackdown on X, etc.
00:26:20.280Just to give you one very quick statistic, Snapchat in this country accounts for 53%, 54% of child sex crimes, not X.
00:26:29.200So, you know, you can see where it's going.
00:26:34.500Ten seconds, Joseph. It's always a pleasure for you to come on the show and share your very detailed insights in UK politics.
00:26:42.320Ten seconds. Social media. Where do people go to keep up with you?
00:26:45.280JRtypes across X and Substack and josephrobertsonuk on Instagram.
00:26:52.820If you want to follow me there, it would be great to connect with some of you afterwards.
00:26:58.160Joseph, thanks very much indeed. We'll catch up with you again soon. God bless for now.
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00:31:41.520Well, sometimes on the show we have scientists, sometimes historians, sometimes analysts, sometimes journalists.
00:31:49.800But we like to expand the range of people we bring on.
00:31:56.680And we've asked Dr. Nicholas Wright, the neuroscientist, to come back and give his insights into politics and how certain political dispositions, social dispositions, cultural dispositions are actually hardwired into the human brain.
00:32:14.160And, you know, when I saw that Dr. Wright had made the thesis looking at the protests going on in Iran right now, that you can actually have a neuroscientific analysis of why people are in a democracy movement, are of all things calling out for the return to monarchy.
00:32:38.320I was immediately interested to know more.
00:32:41.840So, Dr. Wright, thanks for coming back on to the show.
00:32:46.080Tell us then, in your own words, your thesis on this, because I think it's absolutely fascinating.
00:32:51.220Yeah, Ben, thanks so much for having me on.
00:32:54.640So, I think the first thing to say is that all human societies are hierarchical.
00:33:04.060And by a social hierarchy, I mean, that can obviously come from many different traits that people might have.
00:33:12.120It might be sort of physical strength.
00:33:13.960It might be something to do with religious, you know, where you are in a caste system, for example, or whatever it might be.
00:33:22.460But there will always be some form of social hierarchy.
00:33:24.940There will always be leaders and there will always be followers.
00:33:28.260And that is baked into how our brains work.
00:33:31.480And so, our brains have very specific areas that see exactly where we are in these social hierarchies.
00:33:40.020Now, in terms of the leaders and followers, we know that some people actually, in fact, quite a lot of people, do not want to assume responsibility for others.
00:33:53.600They don't want to take on a leadership position.
00:33:55.920And we can see where this happens in the brain.
00:34:00.760And actually, what we can see is that when people are given the opportunity to just shoulder responsibility for others, often they are averse to it.
00:34:09.080And when we scan their brains and then we can see where people are more likely to be averse to shouldering responsibility for others, we can then actually then correlate that to real world tests of their leadership.
00:34:26.800So, for example, there was a great study done in Switzerland.
00:34:30.000And they were able to scan people's brains and then look to see where they had reached in the military ranks within the Swiss military.
00:34:37.580And so, for all those reasons, there will always be leaders and there will always be followers.
00:34:44.080And what we often want is a specific individual leader that we will follow.
00:34:50.180And that's one of the reasons why monarchy in particular has been one of the most historically successful and pervasive forms of leadership structure that we've had in human societies.
00:35:02.440Okay. So much there to unpack. So much there to unpack.
00:35:06.900Let's start. I don't believe in evolution.
00:35:09.980I think I mentioned that the last time we had you on the show, but I'm quite happy to use it as an intellectual construct because, you know, it makes a certain amount of sense.
00:35:20.520So tell me if I have understood the thesis correct.
00:35:24.940And it's a very, you know, amongst scientists, what you've expounded there is a very popular and accepted idea that because of the constraints of evolution and the nature of limited resources, was it Darwin who called the struggle for existence?
00:35:44.400So there's only a certain amount of food or what have you, and therefore animals need to fight over it and those who are best fitted and suited pass on their genes.
00:35:58.860And because of that, and because of the mating process and all the rest of it, and the selection of these genes, sort of inside all animals' brains, you know, and this goes, I think, down to lobsters, there is this hierarchical inbuilt.
00:36:15.420Is it in the hippocampus? I don't remember where in the brain, but there's a measure of where you are in the hierarchy, right?
00:36:23.060In your communal hierarchy, in your social hierarchy, and that sort of way, that placement in the hierarchy dictates basically how you confront and respond to all of life.
00:36:33.540So it's there at the neurological level in the brain, inbuilt, including into human beings.
00:36:42.140And the more social the animal, the more it lives in society, the more keenly aware it is of this hierarchical nature.
00:36:49.580Now, if I understood the thesis correctly, and what you're saying is that also, that reality, which humans have because of evolution.
00:37:00.500I just say, it doesn't, this is, this is based, this doesn't have to be based on evolution.
00:37:05.360So, you know, my studies scan people's brains, and you could say those brains have evolved, or you could say those brains were designed intelligently, or where have you want to go.
00:37:14.360So it's not, it's not centered on evolution, just to, just, just to be clear.
00:37:18.480No, thanks. Yep. Thanks for that. Corrections. Great.
00:37:23.200Because it basically makes your analysis even more universal.
00:37:27.580But the idea is then, because of these very real measurements in human brain structure that can be made, you can then project outwards onto, onto politics.
00:37:38.380Because you said the last time you came on the show a couple of months ago, that the way the brain is constructed can actually lead human beings into the state of warfare.
00:37:47.560You drew the direct parallel from the neurological structure architecture of the brain into warfare.
00:37:54.620And your thesis now is exactly the same, is you're looking at the human brain, and you're sort of projecting that to how we comport ourselves on the political level.
00:38:03.960So tell me, so if I've got that synthesis correct, tell me more then, please, about how that neuro-architectural structure would lead to people calling for a king.
00:38:20.340I know you were just sort of saying it a moment ago, but I wanted to get that out for the audience.
00:38:24.740Say that again, about how in this moment that is the result.
00:38:29.000So I think that what people always want is a leader, right?
00:38:32.480There will always be a leader, and that leadership.
00:38:36.060There will always be leaders, and there will always be followers.
00:38:38.040So where does human leadership come from?
00:38:39.860And there are really two main sources of power in human leadership.
00:38:44.880So the first thing is the sort of maybe more animalistic side, which is dominance, right?
00:38:49.720All this could be to do with the fact that you have power through guns or whatever it might be, but there's dominance.
00:38:54.720So dominance can often give you power, and that can be contributed to you having a leadership position within society, a status, and other people will follow you.
00:39:06.720But then in humans, because we are really remarkable animals, and we teach each other, and we learn, and we're extremely clever animals, extremely social animals.
00:39:18.020And so another source of power for us that leaders can have is through prestige, right?
00:39:23.360So prestige is when you're doing things, when you have qualities that will be thought admirable by others.
00:39:30.160So I, for example, when I was a doctor working in the hospital, there were other doctors who were more senior than me, and they had a huge amount of prestige.
00:39:39.680I followed them because they had a huge amount of prestige.
00:39:42.020And we see others who have prestige in societies.
00:39:45.260So, for example, religious leaders will often have a large amount of prestige within society, and that prestige is another source of power.
00:39:56.160And so one of the traditional sources of prestige in very many societies is monarchy.
00:40:01.980And so if you look, for example, today, of the G7 countries, that's the sort of the biggest rich world economies, three of the seven G7 countries are monarchies.
00:40:13.740If you look at countries like Sweden, Norway, Denmark, the Netherlands, they're monarchies.
00:40:18.900If you look at many of the most successful countries in the Middle East, they are monarchies.
00:40:23.640Oman, Jordan have been much more stable than others.
00:40:27.260And if you're in Iran, for example, you're looking at UAE, United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia, they have been much more successful.
00:40:37.260And one of the reasons for that is that they have a much more stable society because they have this clear leadership at the top.
00:40:42.340Now, that doesn't necessarily mean the leader is going to be benign.
00:40:45.020It doesn't necessarily mean they're going to be democratic.
00:40:47.220But we as humans will often try and coordinate around such individual human leaders.
00:40:53.400And that's one of the reasons why, particularly if there is a traditional military monarchy that you can go to, that people will often coordinate around that as a source of leadership.
00:41:04.780It gives Reza Pahlavi, who is the Shah living in the US now and has been since 1979, it gives him an extra leg up in Iranian politics because other people will coordinate around him as a leader.
00:41:19.580I'm going to ask you, this is a fascinating thesis.
00:41:24.900I'm going to ask you after this short shout out to one of our sponsors, you've mentioned how the structure of the brain might lead to a desire for monarchy.
00:41:36.780I'm going to ask you how compatible democracy is with your analysis as a neuroscientist of the brain.
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00:42:22.320So, Dr. Wright, I get the idea how a desire for a king, and it sort of comes out of neuroscience, of the study out of the composition of the brain.
00:42:35.860And if I might just interject, if I might just interject, because you mentioned where that sort of hierarchical sense of falling in comes out of, say, physical strength or of social prestige and what have you in leadership.
00:42:52.820I'd like to say that my somewhat idiosyncratic theological view on this is that the desire for power, the desire to dominate one's fellow man arises out of original sin.
00:43:07.120But I'm perfectly happy to argue here on the brain level.
00:43:11.600Tell me then about democracy, because throughout human history, as you were indicating, throughout recorded human history, there's pretty much always only ever been a king that's led, governed over, ruled over his normally subjects.
00:43:34.920How compatible is democracy with your study of the human brain?
00:43:40.700Yeah, I mean, so what I'd say is the brain is like an orchestra, right?
00:43:45.460There's not one single system in the brain that explains everything.
00:43:48.980We have many different systems, and they're all important for how we act in society, how we make decisions about things like who we support politically or whether we go to war, for example.
00:43:59.820Now, yes, these social systems are very important to look at social hierarchies, and they create the space, a space at the top of our social hierarchies for a leader or a leadership, something that will be at the top of our hierarchy.
00:44:18.660It's not only going to be, it's not only going to be monarchy.
00:44:21.600Clearly, it could also be, for example, in the United States, 250-odd years ago, you had a war, a war of independence, and it was at the point of that was to get rid of the monarch, right?
00:44:32.880And then we have other parts of the brain that can think up clever ideas and put those systems, those institutions, as things that we then will have at the top of our hierarchy or that can create spaces that can help us fill the top of that hierarchy.
00:44:51.300And how we choose those people then wouldn't be through the intuitive and ancient system of the family unit or family inheritance, which is, you know, the most common, always the most basic fundamental unit of social organisation in humans.
00:45:06.080But then you could, for example, have the US Constitution, which had votes, and then they selected a leader who then ruled for a defined period of time.
00:45:16.480And I think this also indicates that these rules are not only, for example, if you look at the American Constitution, not only about how things are written down, but they're also about the human beings and how they decide to act, so they set the social parameters.
00:45:31.400So George Washington famously chose to step down, right?
00:45:36.480He could basically have become a king, a lot of people would argue, but he chose to step down.
00:45:41.720And by setting that precedent, you know, the founding fathers of the United States were really quite remarkable guys.
00:45:46.480And he set that precedent, and that helped set the unwritten rules by which the United States, along with the written rules, now has a system, a democratic system, in which it can have a leadership position filled.
00:45:58.280And in a country like Britain, for example, or the Netherlands, you have a hybrid system, and we often have hybrid systems too.
00:46:04.940And our brains live with this kind of hybridity all the time.
00:46:09.240I seem to remember that when, back during the first president, there was a debate on how Americans should address their president.
00:46:26.060And George Washington basically ended the conversation by saying, Mr. President is more than sufficient.
00:46:35.940But there was actually a movement to suggest that the correct form of address ought to be His Majesty the President.
00:46:42.660And you can imagine how America might have worked out differently had that faction succeeded.
00:46:49.680Now, you mentioned, obviously, that we're now sort of accelerating towards America's 250th anniversary.
00:46:58.420And I think it's fair to say that revolutions that succeeded, that have succeeded, probably did succeed because they were very quick about re-establishing the hierarchical structure whose leadership the revolution had replaced.
00:47:14.620From a neuroscience perspective, do you think humans are just badly hardwired in the brain in order to have a social structure that isn't heavily dependent on political leadership?
00:47:34.360I don't think we can have any kind of large-scale social structure where there won't be leadership.
00:47:41.480There won't be hierarchy and there won't be leadership.
00:47:43.540And partly that's because there will always be followers, right?
00:47:47.620And there will always be leaders and there will always be followers.
00:47:50.200And that's because the followers' brains like to follow and the leaders' brains like to lead.
00:47:54.500And that makes up the structure of our society.
00:48:01.220Then there's a second point, which is sometimes you need leaders, right?
00:48:05.840So if you have a military, you can't have everybody having a good old discussion about what they should be doing because you need a decisive leader.
00:48:11.060And that's why I think if you look at the Roman Republic, there were periods where they would have decisive leadership, right?
00:48:22.520They would essentially give a decisive leader far more power so that they could make the – and the same thing in Athenian democracy – so they could then make the types of decisions that were needed urgently, right?
00:48:34.800So for those two sets of reasons, one, we basically as humans like to live in hierarchical societies, whether that's something that people are comfortable with, agreeing with or not.
00:48:47.700And secondly, there are just so many examples where having a more hierarchical society, certainly in part, can make you more effective.
00:48:57.140So that's bad news for libertarians then?
00:49:03.960I mean, I think that if you just scatter people around – I mean, it is basically.
00:49:07.220I don't think it's going to work for a wide variety of reasons because you would scatter people around, but then people will assort into leaders.
00:49:13.480You look at somebody – I don't know if you – you probably saw just last fall, I think, and you had Donald Trump gathered around the titans of the US tech industry in the White House, and you saw them sitting at this big table.
00:49:30.120And it was – I mean, you didn't – you know, a deaf person or, you know, a monkey could probably have worked out who was the big leader and who were all the subordinate people in that – you know, around that – around that table.
00:49:43.800That's just the way people organise, and that comes through two things, as I said.
00:49:49.220You get that political power through dominance.
00:49:53.960You know, yes, they had a lot of money, those tech leaders, but the guy who has the dominance, you know, the security operations on is Donald Trump.
00:50:01.640And then secondly, he is a very effective politician.
00:50:05.600He is, you know, very good at politics.
00:50:08.400That's been amply demonstrated, certainly now, you know, winning a second term, and that gives him an enormous amount of prestige as well, politically.
00:50:17.460Okay, look, if you've got 30 seconds, if you can do it in 30 seconds, fine.
00:50:22.600If you can't, we'll have to bring you back on again.
00:50:24.480You mentioned earlier the typical leadership profiles being established, I think, on physical strength and your word, prestige.
00:50:32.800Are there any other characteristics that historically are essential from a neurological perspective in political leadership?
00:51:40.780Dr. Nicholas Wright, thanks very much.
00:51:42.300I had wanted also in this show to discuss with you Venezuela and your also fascinating thesis on unpredictability as a strategic tool from the neurological perspective.
00:51:52.800Have to get you back on again another time to dig down on that one.
00:51:58.780My thanks to Will and his crack team in Denver from Real America's Voice, our producer, Cameron Wallace, and, of course, Victorio Santifranco, who put this show together.
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