WarRoom Battleground EP 931： Sir Niall Ferguson, One Of The Greatest Living Historians, Converts And Confesses Jesus Christ
Episode Stats
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Summary
Stephen K. Bannon's War Room is hosted by Stephen K.K. Bannan. This week, he's joined by journalist Jenny Holland and historian Sir Neil Ferguson to discuss the growing trend of Christians in the UK and America.
Transcript
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I have a view, which is that we're probably in the very early phase of a Christian revival.
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I look around me in England, where I'm spending a lot of time, and I think,
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how many unhappy people there are who would be so much happier
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if they only went to church on a Sunday and opened their hearts to Christ.
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I found in the end that atheism was not a basis for a meaningful life,
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And so I and my wife recently were baptized and are now practicing in devout Christians,
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You used to be an atheist, but now you've found religion.
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That's right. I never really questioned my atheism until I had kids myself.
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And then I remember thinking, I'm not sure that I'm just going to make them good people by example.
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They really do need to know about Christianity.
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I think I came to the historical conclusion that religion was good.
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So I began to go to church, not with any religious faith,
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but thinking that it would be good for my children and broadly good for society if more families went to church.
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But then more recently, I understood one can't live without religious faith,
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that one can't be happy, that one can't feel a true sense of purpose.
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One can't know the real difference between good and evil without God.
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And so I was baptized, well, not long ago, September the 1st, 2024,
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along with my wife, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a former Muslim, former atheist, and our two sons.
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Pray for our enemies, because we're going medieval on these people.
00:01:53.500
I got a free shot at all these networks lying about the people.
00:02:01.100
I know you've tried to do everything in the world to stop that,
00:02:02.860
but you're not going to stop it. It's going to happen.
00:02:05.060
And where do people like that go to share the big line?
00:02:09.360
I wish in my soul, I wish that any of these people had a conscience.
00:02:15.240
Ask yourself, what is my task and what is my purpose?
00:02:19.000
If that answer is to save my country, this country will be saved.
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Harnwell here at the helm on Steve Bannon's War Room.
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We picked an interesting cold open for you today.
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That was Sir Neil Ferguson, one of, I think, commonly appreciated,
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one of the greatest living historians currently at work and writing.
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And he mentioned, of course, his wife, Ayn Herson Ali,
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who's a Somalian-born former member of parliament in the Netherlands.
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Very strong intellectual, anti-Islamic intellectual.
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And I thought that was quite, those two clips were quite interesting.
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Jenny Holland, you actually flagged those up for the show.
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Why don't you just sort of give us 30 seconds on your take on what he was saying there?
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Specifically from the angle that in the UK, people really own sort of,
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warning to Tony Blair in an interview, we don't do God.
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So for Brits to hear people talking in those terms, it might be slightly unusual.
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Of course, it's common conversational currency in the United States.
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Tell me what you think, what impact someone with the authority and credibility
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and social respect that Sir Neil holds in British intellectual life,
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his two contributions there and others, will make to the religious fabric of the country.
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Well, my first thought watching those clips was that it looks like
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Mr. Ferguson has been watching the War Room Wednesday spirituality special.
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I saw those and I was sort of stopped in my tracks by them.
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I mean, I obviously know of his wife and I've read her books and I've read her articles
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and have a lot of respect for her, Ayaan Hirsi Ali.
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And she very bravely sort of stood against Islamism in Europe.
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And I knew that she had converted to Christianity.
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But when I heard him say that there is a growing tide of Christian faith,
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Yeah, I mean, I actually, well, while it's not surprised from our perspective here on War Room,
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I was surprised to hear it from his perspective, as the UK does remain much more secular overall.
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But there is, even in my tiny circle, my tiny cohort, there is a growing religious belief among former lefties,
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sort of Gen X, Indie kids and atheists, who have seen the terrible turn society is taking in multiple ways,
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I think especially given the United Kingdom's history, its deep Christian roots,
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how Christianity really shaped the society and its history and its political power and its cultural power,
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and how interwoven Christianity was in English society when it was producing all of these incredible works.
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I think a lot of young people are longing for that era of respect and quality.
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They're longing for an escape from the sort of brutalities of secular life.
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And I agree with Niall Ferguson that God provides a refuge from that.
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And it's very interesting to me, too, how he said he started going almost as a cultural Christian, right?
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So, you know, he's a smart man. He's a very erudite man.
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So he understands the history of Christianity and how important it is.
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And so he thought it was an important cultural thing to take his children to church and have them participate in the rituals.
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But, you know, it's sort of the implication was, oh, I maybe thought I was sort of above it, only to find that, no, he wasn't.
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And actually that God is a necessary part of family life.
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As someone who has a similar perspective, I find that resonates with me greatly.
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And I'm very happy to hear someone of his stature say it.
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I liked what you said, especially your expression about the brutality of secular life,
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Agreed with everything you said, apart from, you know, here's your latent Irish Republican sympathies, Jenny.
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He, I think that it's interesting that he was drawn to this by things outside himself.
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You know, the greater society and the problems that it had, that's what's bringing a lot of people to it now.
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And then his children, he felt like they needed the education that, so he, well, I can't just raise them and have not them teach Christianity.
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He's making, he's admitting some things that atheists would never admit about the meaning of life now.
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But also, and this is so important, the prayers itself, surrounded by prayer in the church, you know, my father was the same way.
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He went to Mass all the time to make my mother happy and to make his mother happy because it was a habit.
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But now, in his dotage, he's starting to believe it because the prayers, they break that wall of atheism.
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And here, it seems to be broken by reaching outside himself to his children, caring for them, caring for society, and then the prayers of being surrounded by that.
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Yeah, it's the work of the Holy Spirit, and it's beautiful to watch, and it's taking place in the UK, which is anyone who has any familiarity with the UK, it is such emotionally and intellectually a sterile place when it comes to religion.
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But there are green shoots, and that's what we do here on the War Room.
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We watch out for them and bring them to the attention of the War Room posse.
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And as I say, Sir Neil Ferguson, one of the great living historians.
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So that's, I thought, his contribution, his public witness to Jesus Christ was very sincerely made.
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Okay, we'll move on with the show then, because probably for the next 20 minutes, that's the last one we'll be talking about Christ,
00:09:05.780
because we're talking about the Catholic Church, and the Catholic Church institutionally rarely interests itself with such prosaic things, like talking about our Lord and Saviour.
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They're far more interested in talking politics, doing politics, geopolitics especially, especially when it comes to the endless string of platitudes, pacifists, pseudo-pacifist platitudes.
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And Frank Walker, you've got your beady eyes on this one right now.
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The three, probably three of the most important cardinals, we're talking Cardinal Cupich from Chicago, Cardinal McIlroy from Washington, Cardinal Tobin in Newark,
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have come together, basically, to call for what they call a genuinely moral foreign policy.
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Now, the New York Times, I think, which sort of did a great article on this just earlier on this week, clearly drew the dots on this.
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They're basically saying McIlroy was just appointed a couple of weeks before President Trump put his hand on the Bible on January the 20th last year,
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and that was a throwdown, and then following the meeting that they had, the consistory a couple of, what, ten days ago in Rome,
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the three of them got together, spoke to other cardinals, and then decided, especially, and they throw in Pope Leo's name here,
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so you can join the dots, the continuity between the two neo-popes there.
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And this is a throwdown, Frank Walker, an in-your-face throwdown to Donald Trump, is it not?
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Yeah, they're throwing everything that they can at him.
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They, you know, they're accusing him of being all about violence, of being lawless.
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They said the U.S. military action in Venezuela and the threats to Greenland and the cuts to foreign aid
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risk bringing vast suffering instead of proclaiming peace.
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Without a moral vision, the current debate over Washington's foreign policy is mired in polarization,
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partisanship, narrow economic and social interests.
00:11:18.080
They also said he's narrow, narrow interests just in his own country, and they're all about the globe.
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They, you know, they're just, just like, you know, the liberal attacks, they throw everything they can and see it will stick.
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They did not saw nations were using force to assert their domination worldwide,
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completely undermining peace in the post-World War II international legal order.
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They were announced as an instrument for narrow self-interest and proclaiming military action must be seen only as a last resort.
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We seek a foreign policy that respects and advances the right to human life, religious liberty,
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and enhancement of human dignity throughout the world, especially through economic assistance.
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They always got to get back to economic assistance.
00:12:02.240
But, you know, these are the, even though they're the most powerful cardinals,
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they're also the most notorious cardinals in the country.
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They claim that at that synod that everybody expressed their opinion.
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The synod is a perfect vehicle to make lies that are unpopular look like a consensus.
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Leo's church is all in with Davos, where Trump is now speaking, and they're always going to be presenting the globalist pattern.
00:12:36.080
You know, there are three things that they have a problem with are Venezuela, Greenland, and Ukraine.
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Well, Venezuela only had no American casualties, and Cuban guards were killed.
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It was very quick, and he was removed with his wife.
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Greenland, they're already starting to tweet support for Trump on the way over there, and, you know, he's pushing for negotiations.
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They may not, that might not be a military intervention at all.
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In fact, it's about securing the country, as if securing the Western atmosphere was a narrow interest.
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And Ukraine has been a horrible bloodbath, like the size of World War II, and the church has been against peace, really, because they're all about Europe and Europe's position, and they're all about NATO.
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Why is the pope so interested in preserving NATO, which is an unnecessary institution, just sort of a grift?
00:13:27.600
And the global order that they're, they say it right outright, they don't like this new global order.
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It's about violence and self-interest, and it's not about life like them, you know.
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But Frank Walker, you have put your thing exactly on this, right?
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Because the so-called popes that we've had over recent decades are less and less figures to evangelize the gospel of Jesus Christ.
00:14:04.560
They are honorary chaplains of the new world order.
00:14:08.620
They are, they see themselves as honorary chaplains of the international rules-based order.
00:14:14.940
And that's exactly in their statement, in these cardinal statements.
00:14:19.760
They say this, and you mentioned it yourself, but let me come back to it.
00:14:22.180
The post-World War II consensus of dialogue among nations.
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That is clear to the international rules-based order.
00:14:31.980
But what they said next, right, just shows you the sheer brazen cynicism of these men.
00:14:39.340
Because they're now talking about, and you mentioned it, but let me come back to it.
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These people have been trampling over sovereignty, right, since basically 58, when Pius XII died.
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These people have been globalists, shilling for globalism.
00:15:00.480
And now, when it comes to propping up the communist, atheist, church-persecuting regime in Venezuela,
00:15:10.360
they suddenly discover, right, that they're interested in the sovereign rights of countries.
00:15:17.280
It's just the absolute brazen cynicism of these people.
00:15:28.660
But U.S. aid was horrible for sowing propaganda around the world.
00:15:33.800
And for color revolutions, there must have been dozens of them all around the world through U.S. aid.
00:15:42.120
They want to overthrow governments, you know, every two years.
00:15:45.660
And the fact that they're supporting Europe and Ukraine,
00:15:49.640
and they don't appreciate Trump's efforts to back away from Ukraine,
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there would be nuclear missiles pointed at Russia right now,
00:16:04.120
And who's to say that Trump's new order is going to be so lawless all the time?
00:16:07.500
I mean, they want – they're advocating constantly for fighting ice in the streets.
00:16:13.520
You know, they want to – they support – they've supported the bishops,
00:16:19.340
You know, they've been about – all about illegal immigration constantly,
00:16:22.720
and it's really devolving into a lot of violence.
00:16:25.920
So I don't see why they're – I don't know why they feel so much on the right side of the law here,
00:16:32.680
Frank Walker, we'll be back to you later on in the show.
00:16:39.080
Why does – I mean, not only is Pope Leo, Lefty Leo,
00:16:43.440
really sort of showing his hand now after eight months,
00:16:46.600
though it is to show his hand is to confirm the Canon 212 war room thesis
00:16:52.560
that we have held since day one in the face of Trad Inc.
00:16:57.440
But why do they assume – why do these people assume, so breezily assume,
00:17:04.300
when they're calling for a moral foreign policy,
00:17:07.100
that that isn't what Donald Trump is providing or working towards?
00:17:10.840
Why do they so breezily assume that the globalist position of Joe Biden was somehow moral,
00:17:16.920
and therefore, you know, they're not going to enter and criticise that.
00:17:21.200
But Donald Trump or his cabinet or his supporters in Congress don't have –
00:17:28.640
or the millions of people, the 88 million people who voted for him
00:17:34.080
And they don't see that moral position being fulfilled in what Donald Trump is doing.
00:17:40.880
We'll be back on these themes in just two minutes.
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00:19:06.060
So there are some developments also in the Protestant sphere.
00:19:10.260
Specifically, this report comes out of the ambit of the Southern Baptists.
00:19:16.220
Jenny Holland, you've been noting how this report indicates that
00:19:22.640
two years ago, in 2024, and one year, let's say one calendar year ago,
00:19:30.680
4,000 churches were closed and only 3,800 were started.
00:19:38.580
And you've been breaking down the statistics on this.
00:19:43.980
Yeah, so the article recounts a weakening in Protestant denominations.
00:19:50.300
Information was taken from the Southern Baptists,
00:19:53.200
but I think they've mentioned a couple of dozen other denominations in general,
00:20:00.140
Yeah, so more churches closed than were started in 2024 in the U.S.
00:20:10.200
It does mention that some churches that closed during COVID simply never reopened,
00:20:18.320
And that it sort of very vaguely blames secularization for this phenomenon.
00:20:29.340
Older congregations are growing weaker, obviously,
00:20:33.860
and I suppose they're not being replenished by young people coming through the doors.
00:20:38.460
You know, it's interesting that they mentioned secularization, because yes,
00:20:43.300
obviously, that is across the board true with many Protestant denominations,
00:20:50.280
and also this sort of mainstream, should you say, sort of Catholicism,
00:20:57.700
the sort of happy-clappy version of Christianity, which I'm always talking about.
00:21:02.440
But I think, you know, it kind of swerves the bigger issue, this article,
00:21:08.580
which is that what are Protestant churches famous for in recent years?
00:21:14.540
Obviously, not all of them, but certainly the big ones, the Presbyterians, the Methodists,
00:21:19.200
the Lutherans, the Anglicans, the Episcopalians, I guess, in the States.
00:21:23.960
They're famous for their pride events and their enthusiastic endorsement of the LGBTQ agenda and lifestyle.
00:21:36.260
And, you know, I've said this before, and I'll say it again.
00:21:38.100
I want to be very clear that in sort of a secular world, that is great.
00:21:47.460
I just find it fundamentally contradictory, fatally so, when Christian elites,
00:21:57.020
when Christian sort of big Christian organizations that are supposed to have the moral gravity
00:22:01.540
adopt or support, enthusiastically support LGBTQ, you know, it's one or the other.
00:22:09.740
So whilst it doesn't say outright, it just uses the fake leaf of secularization,
00:22:13.960
you know, everyone has been, people have been saying for years, Protestant churches,
00:22:23.220
I just want to say to folks who might be joining us here on our Wednesday show for the first time,
00:22:34.780
Jenny, you are a liberal, broadly liberal progressive, right?
00:22:42.100
And you started off as, on the show, as an atheist, but you prayed the rosary every day.
00:22:50.540
And I'll give Jenny, or Jenny will give her social media at the end of the show,
00:22:54.440
because you want to track down some of the things that she's been putting out on Substack,
00:22:57.720
on YouTube especially, about this journey towards faith.
00:23:02.700
So when Jenny Holland comes on the show, and she's talking here about the secularism effect,
00:23:11.100
eating away at lukewarm Christian faith, she has a certain authority when she says that through personal experience.
00:23:19.160
And of course, towards the end of the article that we're actually referring to today,
00:23:24.580
which I think is based on the Christian Post, but it's actually, yeah, it is a Christian Post thing.
00:23:29.980
It actually mentions the cultural anti-supernaturalism as biting into the making it difficult for people to have religious faith.
00:23:40.540
And of course, you're someone who basically prayed yourself into religious faith without intending to.
00:23:47.880
So that's, you know, you have, you're one of the few people, I think, in social media that can say these things
00:23:53.900
without visibly agitating for anything or any denomination or having an axe to grind.
00:24:02.440
I want to just run this past you, Jenny, and then we'll go to the break, because we have about two minutes now.
00:24:09.800
What I did find in this, in the data here, is that every, and tell me what you make of this.
00:24:18.500
Basically, every church background, bar one, was suffering a decline, okay?
00:24:25.480
So the churches, the church groups, these are Protestant, mainly Protestant, Southern Baptists,
00:24:31.260
though not exclusively, church groups that were founded before 1900 declined by 11% last year.
00:24:39.060
And those founded between 1900 and 1949 declined by 13%.
00:24:44.660
Those founded between 1950 and 1999 declined by 11%.
00:24:52.160
Those church communities founded since the year 2000 saw an increase of 12%.
00:24:59.680
Now, I don't want to read too much into that, but it sort of suggests to me that the boomer,
00:25:04.640
Generation X sort of thing is wilting, but the momentum seems to be with the millennials and Generation Z.
00:25:16.260
We find that every week, and with Catholicism as well, that Gen Z in particular are turning
00:25:22.580
towards a more traditional form of Catholicism.
00:25:26.460
I want to say another thing about Protestantism versus Catholicism.
00:25:30.540
And this is a sort of a frequent online discourse about Gen Z in particular,
00:25:38.480
And this might be somewhat of my personal bias speaking, but Catholic faith and Catholicism offers
00:25:48.180
the better aesthetics, which sounds like a glib thing.
00:25:53.360
But I don't think it is, actually, because what is driving young people to Christianity is the sort of mystery and awe element of it and the sort of the authenticity of the old ways.
00:26:07.460
That's what they're seeking out, as I mentioned earlier, as refuge from the brutality of the secular world.
00:26:13.820
So the people who are driving this upsurge in faith are coming at it with a fervor and an eye for detail that the boomer elites simply have forgotten about,
00:26:29.040
have disregarded, and have taken for granted, and therefore have thrown away and wasted.
00:26:35.740
And there is a new generation coming to replace them.
00:26:39.580
Jenny, what you're saying there to sum that up in 10 seconds is that numbed by secularism, the brutality of secularism,
00:26:47.980
people are thirsting for transcendence, and the transcendence of beauty, which you find in the traditional Latin Rite liturgy.
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00:30:59.180
It's where I put up exclusively all of my content 24 hours a day.
00:31:18.360
Back in the days when Chicago had a halfway decent cardinal, Cardinal George.
00:31:30.880
And his successor will die a martyr in the public square.
00:31:34.900
That came to mind, Frank Walker, when I saw that an Episcopalian bishop,
00:31:42.140
for New Hampshire has told you to prepare for a new era of martyrdom.
00:31:50.320
Tell me more about the background of what's going on here.
00:31:54.100
So I guess Cardinal Cupich might die in prison from what you're saying there.
00:31:58.440
Anyway, this story about an Episcopal bishop in New Hampshire,
00:32:09.920
it makes me think of where do we draw the line between these churches that are really doing things that I would say are seditious.
00:32:21.020
I mean, I'm not a legal expert, and it's happening all over the place.
00:32:28.660
This New Hampshire bishop is warning that we're entering a new era of martyrdom,
00:32:34.080
which to me is kind of funny to think of Episcopalian martyrs.
00:32:36.620
I always think of Catholic martyrs, but there aren't very many Catholic or Episcopalian martyrs these days.
00:32:42.060
I know there's Episcopalians that are very faithful and would be martyrs.
00:32:45.300
But anyway, what he means is people who are ready to die for people like Renee Good,
00:32:53.660
who is the woman that was killed trying to run over an ICE officer.
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I'm thinking the ICE officer was actually injured in that.
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This Rob Hirschfield, Bishop Rob Hirschfield of Episcopal Church, was at a vigil for Renee Good.
00:33:07.240
And, you know, of course, he appeals to the Alabama and the civil rights from the 60s.
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But now it's time, he says, for us to, with our bodies, to defend against the powers of this world.
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The people who want to build a new world cannot fear even death itself.
00:33:29.860
Keep resisting, advocating, and bearing witness for refugees because we can't be a church without refugees.
00:33:42.520
Now, coming up to the midterms, they're this ICE protest.
00:33:54.900
And I just think we need to ask ourselves, how do we handle this?
00:33:59.720
Because as these things move on, you know, this is how it happened in the Banana Republic of Latin America.
00:34:05.760
They're siding with the communists and advocating a communist church fighting with rebels against the legitimate government.
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At what point are we going to have to take steps?
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And Leo's church and the bishops are no different.
00:34:18.520
The head of the archdiocese of the military, Archbishop Roglio, who was up until recently the head of the UCCB, he's telling them to defy orders if they're ordered to do some military action in Greenland, which is not really an application of church teaching, as he says.
00:34:36.400
And back in the day, let's not forget, he was also in charge of the formation of U.S. seminarians at the most important American seminary in the world, which is the North American College on the gynecologist hive of the Vatican, which confirms the whole cynical expression that we have in the U.K.
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Yeah. So you said, so by the way, we're sticking with Cardinal George, right, on this one.
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His, at least his intuition, that authentic Catholic witness to Jesus Christ is going to lead to martyrdom within our lifetimes, if not necessarily his.
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So the Episcopalian bishop here isn't quite, he's treading the same line, but for totally different reasons.
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Now, you mentioned, just quickly hit this point right before we move on, you mentioned that this is pseudo seditious.
00:35:33.940
It absolutely is, because if you look at what the Catholic bishops have been saying again over the last few days,
00:35:41.760
is that they're saying to the U.S. army that it's legitimate for them to disobey orders,
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and presumably they have the discretion themselves which orders they want to obey.
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So orders like going in and removing Maduro from Venezuela, that's a big no-no,
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because we've just established, our Catholic bishops have just established that they're now nationalists and interested in sovereignty.
00:36:06.440
So those sort of things you can legitimately ignore.
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So if the order comes to remove illegals from the country who broke the law to break into the country,
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well, of course, those are also orders that you can legitimately choose to disobey.
00:36:23.160
Frank Walker, you hit the, you know, again on this show, you hit the nail on the head.
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The Archbishop Brolio should be pressured to resign from this position and move into something else,
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I think eventually steps need to be taken to calm the situation, not be rallied by these faux Christians.
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I mean, if you ask the bishops, they would say that they're illegal aliens.
00:36:54.600
These are not Christian principles that they're advocating for.
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What they're representing is a fraud, and I don't think they should be treated as if they're legitimate Christians.
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People that advocate for this kind of thing, I think they should be pressured to tone it down.
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And people who are bishops that should be pressured to be removed and replaced with somebody who is going to preach actual Catholicism,
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Just tell me then, is there room here, if this is where the institution of,
00:37:32.340
I'm not talking about the supernatural basis of the Catholic Church, which is the mystical body of Jesus Christ,
00:37:39.760
but the institutional aspect of this, right, if they are moving now into open seditionary territory,
00:37:50.520
is this a moment for us to revisit on the wall room something that we've been pushing for since we started this show,
00:37:57.440
that really the Catholic laity, the faithful Catholic laity,
00:38:01.660
needs to assert a leadership role within the Catholic Church, within the political aspects of the Catholic Church,
00:38:08.720
rather than leaving it to a group of men who clearly hate the very,
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they have a supernatural, preternatural hatred towards the very thing that they are supposed to be transmitting.
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Yes, as you say, a lay organization is the one that, especially, you know, in the traditional world,
00:38:29.560
you have, there's removed people that are not quite connected to the Church, like it's at the SSPX,
00:38:34.960
that Leo has meaning with the FSSP, which is another group of Latin mass traditional Catholics,
00:38:40.020
but they're very much under his control, and they do not have a political sense,
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and the political sense of the traditional Catholic movement is sort of gone.
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And so we're not going to make any headway unless we have a lay organization that we can, you know,
00:38:57.960
that we can actually have control outside the grip of the media and the Church.
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Frank Walker, Frank, you've been very naughty today on the show,
00:39:08.800
because every time I want to go over to Jenny, you pull me back in,
00:39:12.520
you reel me back in with something else that I have to follow up on.
00:39:16.000
So talking about the SSPX, we saw that the SSPX, the Society of Pius X, paid their visit.
00:39:26.200
They bent the knee and kissed the ring in the Vatican to Pope Leo.
00:39:31.920
And of course, nothing is going to warm the cockles of Tradink's heart
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than the other than seeing the SSPX leadership at the Vatican with Pope Leo.
00:39:45.500
And of course, it did warm the cockles of Tradink's heart.
00:39:49.220
And you have all the nonsense about how they spoke for half an hour and discussed all the things.
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Frank Walker, I'll tell you what I want to see from the SSPX, otherwise I'm not interested.
00:39:56.640
When are you... I'm not interested in any of the... in anything that they have to say.
00:40:02.320
When are you guys going to consecrate new bishops so that your essential mission can continue?
00:40:08.680
And if they're not going to answer that question, you know,
00:40:11.320
just save me the platitudes because I'm not interested.
00:40:15.140
Yes. And you know, last time they did make sounds more like...
00:40:19.240
that sounded a little bit more hopeful in that direction.
00:40:26.880
And so, yeah, that particular organization needs to consecrate bishops
00:40:33.020
But mostly, I think the power of lay movements can really have influence
00:40:37.720
if they're just out of the reach of the control of the media
00:40:41.240
and some of these faithful Catholic organizations
00:40:44.280
so that those people can operate better with help from the lay side.
00:40:48.120
But we don't have any organization on the lay side, and we need that.
00:40:52.960
Obviously, we'll be keeping our cynical beady eyes on this one.
00:41:00.360
and then we'll go to Jenny for the last segment of the show.
00:41:03.560
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