Bannon's War Room - April 04, 2026


WarRoom Battleground EP 981： Ex-head Of German Domestic Intelligence Surveilled By Agency He Once Ran For Opposing The INVASION


Episode Stats

Length

54 minutes

Words per Minute

138.46013

Word Count

7,580

Sentence Count

368

Misogynist Sentences

1

Hate Speech Sentences

24


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Pastor Joel Webben joins us to talk about why some evangelicals are concerned that traditional Catholics are losing their grip on the narrative of the pro-Israel narrative, and why others are worried that the evangelicals are slipping away from it.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.000 this is the primal scream of a dying regime pray for our enemies because we're going medieval on
00:00:10.780 these people here's not got a free shot all these networks lying about the people the people have
00:00:17.360 had a belly full of it i know you don't like hearing that i know you try to do everything
00:00:21.140 the world to stop that but you're not going to stop it it's going to happen and where do people
00:00:24.720 like that go to share the big line mega media i wish in my soul i wish that any of these people
00:00:32.540 had a conscience ask yourself what is my task and what is my purpose if that answer is to save my
00:00:40.480 country this country will be saved war room here's your host stephen k bann
00:00:47.700 Good evening, Harnwell here at the helm on Steve Bannon's War Room.
00:01:00.160 You've got a fascinating, fascinating show for you today, folks.
00:01:04.320 In the second half, we're going to be interviewing Dr. Hans-Georg Marsen, who is the former head of German Domestic Intelligence,
00:01:11.540 who fell out with Angela Merkel over the issue of admitting one million or so Syrians into Germany.
00:01:20.940 And he's going to be talking about how the very intelligence agency that he once directed
00:01:25.880 then turned its sight on him.
00:01:28.800 Before that, however, I'm delighted that we've got Pastor Joel Webben on the show,
00:01:34.120 who's the founder of Right Response Ministries.
00:01:37.900 And the reason we asked Pastor Webin to come on the show is last week, Senator Cruz shared an article.
00:01:47.700 Many people would have seen this.
00:01:49.100 It's basically lit up.
00:01:50.040 Everyone in the sector, their Twitter algorithms lit up with this.
00:01:57.040 And Senator Cruz said, read every word of this.
00:01:59.980 It's the best and most comprehensive explanation of what we're fighting.
00:02:03.880 And that tweet, his tweet had three million visualizations.
00:02:10.360 The article he was pushing out had, I think, five million or so visualizations.
00:02:16.920 And it basically got everyone talking about, for some corners of evangelicalism,
00:02:25.820 the idea that traditional Catholics are plotting a takeover of the American state.
00:02:33.240 But that's not really what I want to discuss in that, because what really interested me is the standing assumption, and I think this came through very clearly, that the author's principal preoccupation was that American evangelicalism might be losing its grip on Zionism, on the pro-Israel state stance,
00:03:00.420 which has subsumed a huge section of contemporary American evangelicalism.
00:03:07.440 And I wanted to dig into that because it wasn't always so.
00:03:11.840 And Pastor Joel Webben has been active on this issue in social media.
00:03:16.400 I thought he would have interesting things to say,
00:03:19.040 especially to our largely evangelical audience.
00:03:22.060 Pastor Webben, thank you very much indeed for coming on the show.
00:03:25.940 Tell me, if you wouldn't mind, in your own words then,
00:03:29.940 about this wider debate why are some dispensationalist evangelicals concerned
00:03:38.340 that the evangelical institution if i can use that word the evangelical church is
00:03:45.160 um grip on the narrative the pro-zionist narrative might be slipping
00:03:53.020 yeah um zionism is uh dispensational zionism i should say is it's a very modern uh notion this
00:04:03.180 is uh it's it's not just that it's oh well this is what protestants have always believed um no
00:04:08.540 this you know at this point most people are probably aware of the schofield study bible
00:04:14.320 you know and joseph darby and these guys that came in uh the mid 1800s uh dispensationalism
00:04:21.620 dispensational Zionism is about 150 years old at this point.
00:04:26.180 And so it's very modern,
00:04:27.560 whereas the Protestant Reformation tracks back for 500 years.
00:04:31.680 And so when you look at Martin Luther, you look at John Calvin,
00:04:34.060 you look at Zwingli, you look at all these Jonathan Edwards,
00:04:36.740 you know, any of the Protestant reformers
00:04:39.740 who outlined the Protestant position,
00:04:43.280 none of them were dispensationalists.
00:04:45.820 And to break those terms down just briefly,
00:04:48.000 A dispensational Zionism is the idea that all of these Old Testament promises that we find in the Bible for Israel that are physical promises, promises about the land being recaptured or a temple being rebuilt and these kinds of things, that these promises are meant to be understood.
00:05:11.240 They've either already in a preterist, meaning past, the Latin for past, they've been past
00:05:16.280 fulfilled, or if there are any future instances of these promises that are still yet to be
00:05:21.800 fulfilled, they have a spiritual fulfillment, not a physical fulfillment.
00:05:27.620 So all of the Catholics and all of the Protestants until, again, very recently, the last 100,
00:05:33.800 150 years, understood that whether or not Israel was a nation state in the year of our
00:05:39.140 Lord 2026 or not, had no bearing on whether or not biblical prophecy will be fulfilled and
00:05:47.220 the return of Christ. But somewhere along the line, there became this very wooden hermeneutic,
00:05:53.520 this very literal, physical interpretation of Old Testament prophecies that essentially
00:05:59.800 got evangelicals, which is a subset of Protestants, but a large subset, to believe that Christ can't
00:06:07.260 actually come in his final physical return, that that can't take place. What every Christian
00:06:13.200 desires and wants to see that that won't actually happen until the nation of state of Israel has
00:06:20.420 been reestablished and Israel widens in its territory, achieves hegemony and all the boundaries,
00:06:28.700 Mike Huckabee is saying this, Ted Cruz is saying this, the old boundaries all the way from the
00:06:33.880 river to the sea has to belong to israel the temple mount and a new temple actually fashioned
00:06:39.280 and then we'll get the return of christ that's not how the protestants historically saw it that's
00:06:44.500 certainly not how catholics have seen it that is a modern innovation uh but many evangelicals have
00:06:50.140 fallen for tell okay so first of all let's synthesize this protestants evangelicals catholics
00:07:00.320 orthodox for the vast historical sweep of history right up until about 150 years ago they were all
00:07:10.300 supersessionist right yes and then at around that time um of Schofield and Derby and all the rest of
00:07:19.440 it um there was a re-evaluation of of concepts which which became under the bracket of dispensationist
00:07:28.980 dispensationalist these terms these two terms very fluently used in evangelicalism are hardly heard
00:07:36.800 at all uh in in in catholic debate as catholics talk to one another um but it is interesting to
00:07:45.620 hear from you as an evangelical um that this dispensationalist view was not held at the time
00:07:56.060 of the Reformation. No. For centuries, not until centuries afterwards. Right. Dispensationalism,
00:08:02.240 it comes from the word dispensations, which are just, they're segments of time, eras of time. So
00:08:07.920 a dispensation of 80 years or a dispensation of 200 years. The idea of dispensationalism,
00:08:15.140 it goes against supersessionism is the idea of covenant, that God has been doing something
00:08:20.680 and he's not doing it ad hoc, right?
00:08:24.140 It's not on the fly,
00:08:25.980 but the God who formed the world
00:08:28.220 before the foundations of the world were laid,
00:08:30.020 he had a plan.
00:08:31.340 We're not on plan B.
00:08:33.020 The church is not plan B,
00:08:34.380 whereas Israel, God's chosen people's plan A,
00:08:36.960 but that didn't work out, you know?
00:08:38.520 And so God paused plan A for the last 2000 years
00:08:42.420 and was working on plan B with the church.
00:08:44.240 And then eventually he'll fold those things together.
00:08:46.660 Dispensationalism is the idea
00:08:47.760 that God is doing a different thing
00:08:50.520 in each of these dispensations, each of these eras of time, whereas covenant theology or
00:08:57.820 supersessionism is the idea that God has had a plan from the very beginning, and his plan with
00:09:04.100 Israel under the Old Covenant, Old Testament Israel, Israel according to the flesh, is that
00:09:09.640 through them he would bring about the promised seed, and the seed is singular. St. Paul says
00:09:14.920 this in the book of Galatians, we see this in Ephesians, multiple New Testament passages,
00:09:19.360 Paul, when he's commenting, commentating and exegeting the Abrahamic covenant from the Old Testament, Genesis chapter 12, this promised seed, he even goes out of his way verbatim to say it is not seeds, plural, but rather seed, singular, and the seed is Christ.
00:09:36.080 So what is the purpose of Old Covenant Israel, according to the flesh, in the Old Testament?
00:09:41.760 God was using them to bring about, eventually, the promised Messiah, to bring about the Christ.
00:09:47.880 And then upon the completion, once we have the New Covenant, we have the incarnation of Jesus Christ,
00:09:54.040 His life, His death, His resurrection, His ascension, and the inauguration of the New Covenant and the church,
00:10:00.440 then Israel, according to the flesh, Old Covenant Israel, they're not just discarded,
00:10:05.080 They're warmly invited in, but sadly, many of them, not all, but many of them chose to reject that invitation.
00:10:14.140 The analogy or illustration that I often will use is that Old Covenant Israel, according to the flesh,
00:10:21.160 was like the construction crew with scaffolding that God used for multiple millennia
00:10:28.580 to build a glorious cathedral of true Israel,
00:10:35.220 the church that is rooted ultimately in Christ.
00:10:39.320 He is the promised seed.
00:10:40.540 He is the root, the root of Jesse.
00:10:43.220 It's Jesus.
00:10:44.740 And then this church is to be made up of both Jews and Gentiles.
00:10:49.500 So it's not that the Jews are sent home, but they're warmly invited in.
00:10:53.440 But what evangelicals, dispensationalists, have been doing is they basically said,
00:10:58.220 when the scaffolding, when the cathedral was finally completed, they said, no, the scaffolding
00:11:03.120 is actually, that's the cathedral. Leave the scaffolding up. The cathedral is a sideshow.
00:11:08.500 That's just something that God's doing temporarily. But the real show, the real exciting thing is,
00:11:17.540 look at this beautiful scaffolding. It's like, no, God was doing something through Israel to
00:11:22.240 bring about the Messiah. And then out of that, the new covenant is inaugurated. The church
00:11:27.020 is incompleted, and God invites into this church both Jews and Gentiles to have union with Christ,
00:11:34.180 his son, by grace and by the power of the Holy Spirit. And the sad thing is that Jews still to
00:11:40.780 this day, religious Jews and many ethnic Jews, still reject Jesus as the promised Messiah.
00:11:47.860 That's somewhat to be expected. Ultimately, God would have to change their hearts. They would
00:11:54.280 have to be born again like any person. You must be born again and come to faith in Jesus Christ.
00:11:59.740 What's shocking is not really the disposition of Jews. What's shocking is the disposition of
00:12:06.640 Christians, predominantly evangelicals. As you're giving the lay of the land, there's Catholic,
00:12:11.920 there's Orthodox, there's Protestants. Evangelical is a subset underneath Protestants. You have the
00:12:17.540 mainline Protestants that are all gay affirming. The rainbow flags are outside of their buildings,
00:12:22.400 church buildings, then the evangelicals tend to be the more traditionalist, traditional marriage,
00:12:28.240 traditional this, that, and the other. And they vote Republican, GOP. The problem though,
00:12:32.320 is they bought into dispensationalism. And so they think that whether it's America's success
00:12:36.900 politically, or whether it's the success of Christianity and the return of Christ,
00:12:41.720 that the physical expression of Israel taking over the land, holding the land, rebuilding the temple,
00:12:48.400 that all this is integral for those things to take place. Could you just give me, I'm talking
00:12:56.340 about a lay of the land, could you just give me an indication, if you wouldn't mind guesstimating
00:13:01.960 on this, what proportion of evangelicals are dispensationalist and which proportion would
00:13:09.300 be as a percent would be supersessionist? Yeah, for evangelicals, I would say that
00:13:14.820 probably 85, 90%, an overwhelming majority because within evangelicalism, again, that being a large
00:13:23.960 subset of Protestantism, most evangelicals don't really appreciate the original Protestant reformers
00:13:31.480 who tended to be, they were reformed. They were Calvinist. If I could use such a dirty word on
00:13:38.580 they're Calvinist. I'm a Calvinist for better or worse. There are strengths and there are
00:13:45.080 weaknesses, but Jonathan Edwards and Martin Luther and John Calvin, these were the original
00:13:49.280 reformers. They were all Calvinist. Most Protestants today are not. They're Arminian.
00:13:55.740 Most evangelicals today are Arminian in their view of salvation, their view of God's sovereignty.
00:14:02.560 And so most of them, most evangelicals, when they think of the original reformers,
00:14:07.480 They think of Calvinism, like election, God choosing with salvation, those kinds of things.
00:14:13.140 And they have an aversion to that.
00:14:15.460 And so they've kind of turned away.
00:14:17.200 It's ironic, but Protestants today have turned away from the original protest, the original Protestants.
00:14:23.460 And because they've been turned off by the soteriology, which is just doctrine of salvation, the emphasis of God's sovereignty.
00:14:30.380 They think that there should be more elevating of human free will.
00:14:34.960 And so they've turned sour on the original Protestant Reformation.
00:14:40.780 And in doing so, for salvific, soteriological reasons, they detached themselves from the history.
00:14:48.560 So most evangelicals today, they don't have a clue what Martin Luther or John Calvin or Jonathan Edwards or these guys thought about supersessionism or the future role of Israel in the eschaton.
00:15:03.040 they're just they're not aware they're ignorant
00:15:05.140 Jonathan Edwards is the sinners in the hands of an angry god guy right
00:15:11.320 that's right that is right
00:15:12.920 I want to come back to it in a moment past I just want to give a shout out to one of us
00:15:19.900 I want to ask you when we come back by the way about the practical implications
00:15:23.540 in US politics right now about this this differences in interpretation
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00:16:59.320 in the second half of the show
00:17:01.800 back now to Pastor Joel Webben
00:17:04.340 Pastor Webben then
00:17:06.020 so here's a question for you
00:17:07.920 looking at the contemporary
00:17:10.240 split, if you will, of US politics
00:17:16.140 because it seems to me
00:17:17.820 that MAGA is split as a movement
00:17:20.400 seems to me as an outsider, as a foreigner
00:17:22.620 in a different country
00:17:23.900 That MAGA as a movement is split down the middle into America first and Israel first.
00:17:31.220 My question to you then, because there is this new phenomenon that has been bubbling up for the last couple of years called Christian nationalism.
00:17:40.080 My direct question to you is, do you think within this wider than umbrella movement of Christian nationalism, there is an opportunity for supersessionist evangelicals, such as yourself, to work together with supersessionist Catholics?
00:18:02.320 probably that's going to be supersessionist traditional traditionalist catholics do you
00:18:07.840 think there's an opportunity for that kind of collaboration absolutely um i think it's important
00:18:14.540 we have to think in categories uh we can over spiritualize things um certainly a moral virtue
00:18:21.000 is of infinite eternal value that that matters most um but there are different categories right
00:18:28.080 So there could be someone, there's lots of guys like this.
00:18:32.560 Timothy Gordon is a great example.
00:18:34.300 He does a lot of good work.
00:18:35.280 He's Catholic.
00:18:36.860 Dr. Taylor Marshall, he's Catholic.
00:18:40.080 He does a lot of great work.
00:18:41.780 Calvin Robinson is a friend, and he's actually coming on our network
00:18:45.360 and being a contributor and doing a show with us.
00:18:50.760 That's NXR Studios, New Christian Right Studios.
00:18:54.660 This has kind of been birthed out of Right Response.
00:18:56.720 response still continues, but having two organizations. And all these guys are Catholic.
00:19:02.080 Calvin Robinson is not Roman Catholic, but he's Catholic for all intents and purposes.
00:19:08.000 And my point is, the reason why we're able to unite is because there are different categories.
00:19:14.520 Calvin is, for instance, is a dear friend. He's not an elder in my church, right? Evangelicals
00:19:22.920 are still going to have their individual churches. And Catholics, of course, are going to have their
00:19:26.000 individual churches. But there's church, the ecclesia, right? But then there's the realm of
00:19:33.260 politics, there's the realm of culture, there are other realms. And so politically and culturally,
00:19:39.860 I think that supersessionist Protestants, evangelicals, actually make for a very natural
00:19:47.780 ally to traditional supersessionist Catholics. Because what we're both seeing is that, yes,
00:19:54.200 our intramural debates about theology. It's not insignificant. It matters. We have real
00:19:58.640 disagreement and we know we're not relativists, right? We can't both be right. If we have two
00:20:03.620 contrary opinions, somebody's right, somebody's wrong, all that matters. But we're realizing
00:20:07.600 there's an existential threat right now, which is foreign influence. We need to be able to have
00:20:15.480 a country that is truly America first. So I am finding myself very comfortable reaching across
00:20:23.540 the aisle politically and culturally with Catholics and saying, look, this is not what
00:20:29.700 the Bible teaches.
00:20:31.280 There's a lot of Christians who've been manipulated thinking that they have a divine obligation
00:20:37.540 politically and geopolitically and with their money and giving and all these kinds of things
00:20:44.120 to support something that the Bible doesn't actually require.
00:20:47.920 And so I think that, yes, a broad coalition on this issue.
00:20:51.680 it's not only possible uh ben but it's it's already well underway it's happening
00:20:56.520 so first concentrate on the the existential battles the existential threats and then
00:21:05.300 is the opportunity to pat one another in a fraternal way on the back
00:21:10.500 look out look at our look our fellow look at our fellow um look our fellow combatants in the eye
00:21:17.980 and say, you're going to hell.
00:21:20.300 I've always said, by the way,
00:21:21.800 because I spent a lot of time in politics
00:21:24.720 when I worked in the UK Parliament
00:21:26.320 and in the European Parliament
00:21:27.320 working with evangelicals
00:21:29.200 who were very well informed
00:21:31.300 over their elements of their belief.
00:21:34.380 And I had no better allies
00:21:35.840 working on the pro-life front.
00:21:37.080 And I always said,
00:21:38.160 I work best with evangelicals
00:21:41.660 who will do that,
00:21:43.380 who will look me in the eye
00:21:44.460 and say, you're going to hell.
00:21:46.600 And the only thing I ask
00:21:47.720 the opportunity just to push back a little bit on all of my own heresies um back and then we'll
00:21:53.080 have that debate um what i can't abide is is what passes for ecumenism is where you just have the
00:22:00.280 institutional leaders of the respective churches who frankly don't believe a word of their own
00:22:05.160 religion anyway getting together having these big conflabs and they put out these ridiculous
00:22:10.600 statements um where they say look how much we we hold in common of course you hold a lot in common
00:22:15.560 what you hold in common is that you don't believe the elements of your faith um i think it's far
00:22:19.800 more serious for people who actually do believe the elements of their faith to sit down and talk
00:22:24.980 to reach out especially when there are these existential threats right across the west
00:22:31.000 i ask you pastor webin please go ahead that's i was going to say that's um i think that was the
00:22:38.020 failure of like a billy graham so if if your listeners are what i still don't understand
00:22:41.740 what's an evangelical. Think Billy Graham. He was the quintessential evangelical Protestant,
00:22:48.020 and he would host these massive crusades, you know, and fill football stadiums, you know. I mean,
00:22:54.400 he was a phenomenon. He was, you know, friends with Carter, with all these different, you know,
00:22:59.040 presidents, and would frequent the White House. And I mean, he was a huge, huge figure. But the
00:23:05.620 problem is that Billy Graham, who I appreciate in some respect, although I would have some
00:23:09.940 disagreements. The problem is that later on towards the latter end of his ministry, he was
00:23:15.920 no longer just partnering with Catholics for, for instance, the protection of the unborn or on
00:23:22.160 certain, you know, issues politically and culturally. But he started having in his crusades, he would
00:23:27.620 preach the gospel. He'd have, you know, altar calls to salvation and prayer. And he would have,
00:23:33.020 you know, Catholic priests down there at the stage, you know, praying. And when he started to
00:23:38.700 partner in terms of the religious aspects and not just broad, like we, you know, Catholics and
00:23:46.500 Protestants, we believe in the triune God, we believe in the incarnation, we believe in the
00:23:49.820 resurrection, all these different things, but they started to partner on how we're saved and these
00:23:55.220 kinds of things. That's where, that's where I think he lost some credibility and where it began to
00:24:00.580 get off the rails. And so I actually appreciate what you just said, Ben, because a lot of guys
00:24:04.820 aren't willing to, to be honest about that. It sounds like you're devout in your faith and you
00:24:09.980 would have sharp disagreements with me. I would have sharp disagreements with you, but we could
00:24:13.680 do something like this, this show and have a reasonable degree of alignment. And then at the
00:24:19.240 same time, um, you know, if I was like, Hey, I'm, I'm going to, um, tomorrow I'm going to become,
00:24:25.320 you know, the priest of your parish. You would say, we, we love you, Joel, but, uh, heck no,
00:24:31.620 no you're not qualified you're not no you you don't get to be and i think that it's it's the
00:24:38.280 conflating of categories where alliances that may have been well-meaning initially become
00:24:45.640 compromise and so what i'm saying is catholics and protestants have real disagreements theologically
00:24:51.200 but where we align to save the country politically i think is absolutely not only permissible but
00:24:58.600 commendable and vital um in in some senses facing this existential threat now i'm certainly in
00:25:08.240 america which i think at the at the edge of the spear on this it's the um christian nationalism
00:25:14.060 i think will become what the pro-life movement was um before the the repealing of roe versus
00:25:21.220 where it's absolutely essential i think for all of christians of goodwill to get together
00:25:25.880 in the front line of this
00:25:28.420 and then we'll have the
00:25:29.960 I sort of think that these theological issues
00:25:32.300 aren't ever actually going to be resolved
00:25:34.500 here on earth
00:25:35.580 but I'm okay with that
00:25:37.620 what I don't like is the
00:25:40.460 lukewarm, blancmange
00:25:42.500 Christianity which means nothing
00:25:44.580 asks for nothing and ends up
00:25:46.620 delivering nothing as well
00:25:48.600 just give me 30 seconds
00:25:50.780 if you will because I know
00:25:52.140 something of the contemporary
00:25:54.400 protestant landscape how does the dispensationalist supersessionist split work out in things say like
00:26:03.500 the assemblies of god or the other sort of well-known branches is there a division within
00:26:09.980 these churches or is it basically on a church by church basis just give me sort of 20 seconds on
00:26:16.320 that if you can yeah it depends on the denomination so calvary chapel uh chuck smith um calvary chapel
00:26:24.540 is absolutely dispensationalist um whereas southern baptist is church by church got it okay look very
00:26:32.920 grateful i hope pastor joel webben you will come back on the show very very quickly where on social
00:26:38.860 media do people go to keep up with your output thank you so much uh biggest thing is just follow
00:26:44.900 me on X. My handle is at Joel Webin, W-E-B-B-O-N, at Joel Webin. And go to Amazon. I wrote a whole
00:26:52.300 book on this, Ben. It's The Hyphenated Heresy, Judeo-Christianity. So go to Amazon, check it out.
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00:31:51.980 Good evening, Harnwell here at the helm on Steve Bannon's Warren.
00:31:58.080 Well, we had so much reaction, positive reaction from the interview we did a couple of weeks ago with Arian Agashahi.
00:32:05.620 If you remember that, we were talking about an interview that he'd had published in the Hungarian Conservative with Dr. Hans Georg Maasen, who was the former head of German domestic intelligence.
00:32:18.880 This was a guy who worked, led that organisation, that agency and found that he was basically being monitored by the agency he once led, that he once directed because of the comments that he had been releasing in interviews about the consequences of the invasion in Germany and the consequent rise of the alternative for Deutschland.
00:32:43.700 Well, we're very, very honoured indeed that Dr. Hans-Georg Marsen himself, on the back of the interview that we did with Aaron Agashar, he now joins us live in the war room. Dr. Marsen, very honoured to have you on the show. Thank you for joining us today.
00:33:01.740 Good afternoon. Thank you for the invitation.
00:33:03.820 of course um well firstly i i will say um straight off that interview which we'll get
00:33:11.680 out on social media we've been promoting it quite heavily as it is with arian definitely a source
00:33:17.340 that the warren posse should go and read themselves we will continue to make that
00:33:22.420 link available but just basically let's start off with the the question i think that is um
00:33:29.560 a natural curiosity tell us about that if you wouldn't mind how you ended up to be monitored
00:33:37.360 by the very agency that you once led um and how you found that that was sort of very much related
00:33:45.180 to you simply exercising your your free speech prerogatives yes uh for my profession i'm a lawyer
00:33:55.180 And I'm from the intelligence service.
00:33:57.760 I've worked for more than 30 years for the German government and more than six years as a director or president of the German Domestic Intelligence Service, something like MI5 or FBI in the United States.
00:34:12.840 And I protected Germany against a lot of terrorist attacks from Islamist terrorists.
00:34:20.300 And I had a lot of problems with Mrs. Merkel.
00:34:23.540 She was my boss.
00:34:24.760 She was chancellor during my time as head of the service, because she was responsible that millions of people entered Germany illegally as asylum seekers, and a lot of people were Islamists.
00:34:43.980 So I had a confrontation with Mrs. Merkel, and at the end, she dismissed me.
00:34:50.680 I had to retire, and I'm a political thinking person.
00:34:56.500 I was from decades member of the Christian Democratic Union, the former conservative
00:35:03.200 party in Germany, and I tried to change our politics in Germany as member of the party,
00:35:11.160 as a political activist, and at the end I was, as you said, a subject of my former service.
00:35:21.260 I'm monitored for more than three years as a subject, as a political target of my service,
00:35:29.080 because I criticize the politics of my government, especially in the field of migration.
00:35:38.640 I'm strongly against the vogue politics in Germany, I criticize this politics, and at
00:35:48.440 the end, as I said, for more than three years I'm subject of monitoring of my service.
00:35:54.640 I think you can see, I say, if you are cynical, it's a privilege that I'm, I think, the early
00:36:03.440 Western intelligence director, who is monitored by our people.
00:36:11.200 So you're wearing that as a badge of honor then?
00:36:16.560 In these times, yes.
00:36:18.780 You must say we live here in Germany, as well as in Western Europe, in a totally strange
00:36:24.480 political situation, we face political persecution.
00:36:29.560 If you are not mainstream, if you are against the left-wing political agenda,
00:36:37.420 you really live in danger that you could be politically persecuted.
00:36:43.600 OK, so let's recap this because you started off your political, even though you were a civil servant,
00:36:49.640 you were, as I understood this, within the political family of the CDU, the Christian Democratic Union.
00:36:58.000 You've also spoken, we might have time to get onto this a little later in the interview,
00:37:02.520 but you've also spoken against the firewall, against the alternative for Deutschland.
00:37:08.320 But it strikes me, listening to you describe the interaction that you had with the former,
00:37:14.240 well, the then-Chancellor Angela Merkel, that if she had followed your advice
00:37:19.480 on the admission of over a million Syrians, unvetted Syrians, into Germany,
00:37:25.860 The whole consequent problem with the AFD would never have arisen, because the AFD in its present form is largely a response to the consequences of the invasion that Germans are living with on a day-to-day basis.
00:37:41.460 Do you find that somewhat ironic as well?
00:37:44.400 It is ironic, but I think she did it for purpose. She wanted the mass migration to Germany for ideological reasons.
00:37:57.180 You must see it's not only a German problem. So you see similar problems in France, in the United Kingdom, as even in the United States during the Biden time presidency.
00:38:12.340 So every Western country tried to support the mass migration to its own countries, and also Ms. Merkel did it.
00:38:25.260 I was strongly against it.
00:38:26.840 I'm from my profession, as I said, lawyer, not only lawyer.
00:38:30.340 My specialty is immigration and naturalization law in Germany.
00:38:37.920 I did a lot of constitutional works and did a lot for parliament before I was head of the service.
00:38:48.060 So I knew a lot about the legislation.
00:38:51.180 And from my point of view, it was against the law.
00:38:54.400 She, as you said, she supported the growing AFD because the AFD is today the biggest opposition party in Germany.
00:39:06.720 And the reason for the strong AFD is that the voters are strong against mass migration to Germany.
00:39:16.620 and something on this show that we sort of follow every day basically of the four hours that we put
00:39:24.160 out every day is that is the fact that the these populist nationalist political parties like the
00:39:33.220 afd in germany like say fratelli d'italia here in italy um and so on so forth right across the
00:39:42.240 European Union. These are largely a consequence of the uncontrolled immigration that we have seen
00:39:48.720 in continental Europe since 2015 onwards. It hasn't simply changed the political landscape
00:39:55.420 of Germany. It's changed the political landscape of right across the European Union.
00:40:02.900 Let me ask you this question then before I give a quick shout out to one of our sponsors.
00:40:08.980 Friedrich Mertz, a couple of days ago, announced that he was going to send the Syrians back, considering that the Assad regime fell, and he's projected that 80% are going to return.
00:40:26.500 Dr. Marson, do you think that's, is he, is he, is he, is this what we call in colloquial English performance politics?
00:40:38.560 That is, is he simply saying this because he's trying to do something to diminish the AFD's appeal and to show himself as taking this issue seriously because it is taken seriously by German people?
00:40:50.780 Is it really a realistic expectation that 80 Syrians are going to return to Syria voluntarily?
00:40:58.940 Everyone was astonished about what he said, that he wanted to send back 80% of the Syrians in Germany.
00:41:07.280 But you must know, only one day after he said it, he got a lot of criticism by the left-wings and all the leftists of his party.
00:41:17.820 And then Mr. Merz, our chancellor, said, no, it was not his idea.
00:41:24.120 It was the idea of the Syrian prime minister in his talks.
00:41:29.360 He spoke about 80%.
00:41:32.260 After this, the Syrian foreign minister said, never, never, never he spoke about 80%.
00:41:41.760 Never, never, never the Syrian prime minister spoke about 80%.
00:41:46.080 In contrary, he said the Syrians, one million Syrians in Germany are a capital of the Syrian policy in Germany.
00:41:59.680 We do not want to get them back.
00:42:01.780 So, long saying short, Mr. Merz, our chancellor, has a nickname Pinocchio because he lied very often.
00:42:15.820 And from my perspective, he said 80%, but he didn't want to send 80% of the Syrians back.
00:42:25.120 And the Syrian prime minister and foreign minister said they do not want to get them back.
00:42:31.780 They do not want to readmit these people.
00:42:37.160 So I think at the end, Mertz tried to be a chancellor of a pseudo-conservative party
00:42:50.640 and to show that he is also in favor of controlling of migration.
00:42:57.540 But at the end, yes, it's a lie.
00:43:01.780 And everyone knows in Germany that with a former conservative party, CDU, you do not get a conservative migration policy.
00:43:13.360 That's absolutely true. And let's face it, it would be possible.
00:43:18.620 It would be possible for Germany if it had a government that was politically minded to do it, to send a million Syrians back.
00:43:26.900 but that would require the whole of the political class
00:43:30.640 or at least the governing political coalition
00:43:33.800 to be absolutely serious about that.
00:43:36.520 How serious?
00:43:37.820 Well, it would require a seriousness
00:43:39.220 much like that shown by President Trump in America.
00:43:43.300 And you have all the headwinds going against you on that.
00:43:47.760 It seems very unbelievable to me
00:43:50.720 that a CDU chancellor is just going to be able to implement a policy
00:43:54.920 That's going to be as politically difficult to enforce as that, just on a whim.
00:44:01.160 He'll need an election mandate, he'll need organisation.
00:44:05.200 He would basically need to be the AFD, and that I think is the point.
00:44:09.480 You need to be the AFD to try to enforce something like that.
00:44:14.100 Dr. Marston, please very kindly stay with us.
00:44:17.080 We'll close out the show with a few more questions with you.
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00:45:49.400 Back with Hans-Georg Marsen right now.
00:45:53.180 Dr. Marsen, if I may, in the five or so minutes that we have of this show,
00:45:58.620 you indicated in your interview with Erwin Agashahi for the Hungarian Conservative
00:46:04.360 that you thought that Germany was sliding towards democratic totalitarianism.
00:46:10.300 Could you just put that in your own words and explain what you mean by that
00:46:15.180 so people can take due note of your warning at this point?
00:46:22.920 Yes, a free democracy means that everyone is able to speak and to think,
00:46:29.800 even to think what he wants to say and what he wants to think
00:46:33.660 and to discuss. And everyone has equal rights to express our own political positions.
00:46:41.580 In a totalitarian society, philosophical thinkers speak about a totalitarian democracy. You are
00:46:54.700 are only allowed to speak about these issues the political establishment wants to speak.
00:47:06.180 We had in the former GDR, the East German so-called democracy, it calls itself German
00:47:14.940 democratic republic, a system which calls itself a democracy, but it means only a democracy
00:47:24.640 in socialism.
00:47:26.280 So you have to accept the socialism, and if you do it, you can decide, you can discuss,
00:47:33.100 you can think freely, but you have to accept all rules of socialism.
00:47:38.740 And I got the impression that in the Western societies, and especially in Germany, we have the problem that the political leftists, the liberals, they are so strong, they are hegemonials in our media, in our mainstream media,
00:47:55.420 that is only allowed to speak, to think, to discuss about issues which are mainstream issues,
00:48:03.240 which are mainstream positions, about the climate change, about brokenness,
00:48:08.460 about the question, do we have one, two, three, or 76 sexes, genders?
00:48:16.540 Is it allowed to speak about Ukraine war or not?
00:48:21.640 And this is, of my position, the way into a totalitarian democracy, because at the end, if you do not accept the rules of the media,
00:48:36.800 If you do not accept to speak only about the positions the mainstream wants to hear, you will see that you were politically persecuted, that you could lose your job,
00:48:53.180 that you are not longer a member of the society
00:48:59.280 because nobody invites you to garden parties,
00:49:05.220 to birthday parties, and so on.
00:49:07.160 And I think we are here on the way to such a democracy, unfortunately.
00:49:15.000 Dr. Marson, we've got about 60 seconds left.
00:49:18.600 you're obviously a very consequential figure in Germany as you say a lawyer trained in immigration
00:49:27.640 law as good fortune should have it as well as being amongst your 30-year career in public
00:49:36.200 service you've also been the head of the German domestic intelligence let me just quickly ask you
00:49:42.840 this question how are people in germany taking this warning that you're giving are they taking
00:49:49.260 it seriously or they're just trying to dismiss you totally and the arguments that you're presenting
00:49:55.120 i think our society our people is really divided one half is really afraid
00:50:03.340 it's really afraid about the situation of our democracy and the other half is sleeping
00:50:08.860 well they are simple but i think they're going to be woken up very very soon um because you
00:50:17.020 have the afd there um and that that brand mauer the the the firewall isn't going to last forever
00:50:23.580 at some point they never the electoral inevitability of german anger and distrust at their
00:50:29.980 political class is going to break through and i think it is going to make a difference
00:50:33.740 But you're somewhat prophetic right now before these events are taking place and giving the warning to the German people if they want to pay attention to it.
00:50:44.980 Somewhat ironic that they're basically accusing you as being a threat to the German system, to the German constitutional order, when you've devoted your whole life in order to preserve that.
00:50:58.480 Where do people go on social media, Dr. Marsen, to keep up to date with your analysis and your contributions and warnings to the German people?
00:51:10.180 Yes, I'm on X. I have several hundred thousand followers on X. I'm on Facebook. I have my own website. I have a YouTube channel, which means my friends, my team is responsible for the YouTube channel.
00:51:30.440 So I'm really active and I have a big team which supports me.
00:51:36.500 I cooperate with the AFD, I cooperate with a lot of other activists
00:51:42.380 who are on the free side of the so-called firewall.
00:51:46.700 You spoke about the so-called firewall.
00:51:50.240 And I'm sure that we will tear down this wall.
00:51:55.400 Dr. Marston, close with the great words of Ronald Reagan.
00:52:00.140 great honor thank you once again for coming on the show thank you i'll shout out to arian
00:52:04.500 agashahi as well for arranging your your presence here thank you to spencer and his great team
00:52:10.800 at denver colorado and of course to victorio santifranco who put this show together god
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