Bannon's War Room - WarRoom Battleground EP 985： Stopping The Islamification Of America

00:00:00.000 This is the primal scream of a dying regime.

00:00:07.740 Pray for our enemies, because we're going medieval on these people.

00:00:12.960 I got a free shot at all these networks lying about the people.

00:00:17.220 The people have had a belly full of it.

00:00:19.140 I know you don't like hearing that.

00:00:20.560 I know you try to do everything in the world to stop that,

00:00:22.320 but you're not going to stop it.

00:00:23.240 It's going to happen.

00:00:24.520 And where do people like that go to share the big lie?

00:00:27.920 Mega Media.

00:00:28.820 I wish in my soul, I wish that any of these people had a conscience.

00:00:34.700 Ask yourself, what is my task and what is my purpose?

00:00:38.460 If that answer is to save my country, this country will be saved.

00:00:44.860 War Room. Here's your host, Stephen K. Mann.

00:00:48.000 okay welcome uh you're in the war room on on our uh our six o'clock show which always very special

00:01:00.640 to us uh raymond ibrahim joins us from budapest raymond i know you're just back from oxford

00:01:07.580 and in fact we're going to play a talk you gave there uh it doesn't take very long i think it's

00:01:13.180 10 or 15 minutes we're going to play that and i want you to break it down for it it's about

00:01:16.580 doormat christianity the reason i want to have you on was one obviously this uh you kind of

00:01:23.420 shocked him in oxford but you're i believe if not the best one of the top two or three

00:01:30.020 uh best uh writers that informs the west of this long struggle we've had with uh with islam

00:01:38.200 and you've done it through a series of three books talk about the books first i want to play

00:01:42.320 the Oxford talk, and then we're going to break it down in a minute. But in a time that we're in

00:01:47.800 another Middle East war with a radical sect of Islam, the Shiite, you know, the 12th Imam sect

00:01:57.720 in this kind of radical theology, which we've been in and out fighting for 47 years. At the

00:02:04.920 same time, I've been spending so much time in Texas in the show for good reason about the 1.00

00:02:09.420 Islamic invasion. And I've told people it's much farther advanced than I thought. And this deals 0.99

00:02:14.980 with the overwhelming victory we had on the Proposition 10 to ban or prohibit, let me be 0.83

00:02:20.780 specific, prohibit Sharia law in the state of Texas. To have your counsel on this and to put

00:02:28.800 it in historical perspective is always important. So before I play Oxford, do me a favor and just

00:02:35.560 walk through your background in all three of the books. One of them is out currently.

00:02:40.860 I don't want as many people as possible to buy, plus the other two. They're fantastic. And they

00:02:44.840 kind of form a trilogy. Thank you very much, Steve. Yeah, to understand what we're talking

00:02:51.480 about today, Islam and the West and all its different iterations, most recently what's 0.58

00:02:56.160 happening with Iran. I've always believed that there's been a complete vacuum in your average 0.98

00:03:01.260 American and Westerner in general's knowledge of history. And that's why so much of what we

00:03:07.600 believe and accept and let get away happens because we don't understand the full context

00:03:14.220 of it. And we just think it's about, oh, you know, people are being multicultural and open-minded and

00:03:19.220 not bigoted towards Muslims, for example. But if you really look into the history,

00:03:24.220 which is what I've been doing for about 25 years now, actually, including in those three books,

00:03:29.900 which I'll summarize. If you look at the history, you'll understand that this battle has been going

00:03:34.180 on from day one, literally. And it hasn't really changed in its manifestation, at least not from

00:03:40.240 the Muslim side. The Muslims are still preaching jihad amongst each other. They're still practicing 1.00

00:03:45.520 taqeya amongst the infidel. And they're still engaged in all the various forms of jihad, 1.00

00:03:51.660 which they've articulated. Jihad, remember, just means to struggle. And sure, its primary

00:03:56.720 expression historically has been physical, a military struggle, but it also has all these 0.90

00:04:01.860 different forms, which we're seeing now, including the baby jihad, which is a demographic

00:04:05.960 overwhelming of the West, for example. The only discontinuity is from the Western side. 0.52

00:04:12.320 So whereas Muslims today are really lock, stock and barrel with their heritage, which comes out 0.99

00:04:19.160 in all of these books, it's the West and especially the Christians who've completely lost touch

00:04:24.180 with that long history. So in these books, we will see, for example, in Sword and Scimitar, 0.62

00:04:30.820 we look at this long history. That's the first book which came out in 2018. I really focus on

00:04:36.980 eight pivotal battles that changed the world forever. And they were between Christians and 1.00

00:04:41.480 Muslims. And these battles, you know, the first one or two saw the conquest of essentially three 0.89

00:04:48.320 quarters of what was once the Christian world, which very few Westerners still understand at

00:04:53.020 this point. They still think that countries like Egypt and Syria and Turkey and North Africa were

00:04:58.820 just always Islamic somehow. They don't understand that they were actually more Christian than Europe

00:05:04.620 and they were violently annexed. And so that there is a lesson that this could happen. There's that

00:05:11.320 famous quote I always talk about from Teddy Roosevelt, where he talks about if Christians

00:05:16.180 did not fight constantly, and he mentions virtually every century against the Muslims,

00:05:20.140 they would have been eliminated completely. 1.00

00:05:24.600 Happy to be with you. 1.00

00:05:27.480 I'm generally seen as the Islam guy, and I talk about that big issue. 0.89

00:05:31.900 But seeing that this is a Christian revival conference,

00:05:35.060 and the fact that Islam and Christianity, there's something of a symbiotic relationship going on,

00:05:41.540 I have to actually talk about both, because it's really all interrelated.

00:05:46.360 And so what I'd like to start off with when I think of problems,

00:05:49.380 is, well, what's the first things? What's the first premise of the problem? And I often think

00:05:55.780 that many people don't really see it or don't talk about it. We tend to talk about symptoms.

00:06:01.080 Islam itself in the West, in Europe, in the UK, I see it as a symptom. I don't see it as an inherent

00:06:06.320 or innate problem. And it's a symptom of essentially the weakening or the dying of Christianity in the

00:06:13.340 West. So how did that happen? And one of the thoughts that's been percolating in my mind,

00:06:19.600 and I've been thinking about and talking about quite often, is the idea that one of the problems

00:06:25.100 with Christianity in the modern era is that it has, in very many ways, adopted a materialist

00:06:31.280 paradigm, not unlike atheists and secularists. And by that, I don't mean materialistic,

00:06:37.100 as in covetous. I mean it in a more philosophical sense, a materialist paradigm in the sense that

00:06:42.820 all that is real, let's say from an atheist point of view, all that is real is what? It's the

00:06:47.600 material, right? It's the physical world. It's what I can see, feel, touch, and measure. And all

00:06:53.660 this abstract talk about your morality and your religion and all this sort of thing is usually

00:06:57.740 jettisoned. And that's one of the problems. But I fear, and I think, and I see that much of

00:07:04.020 Christianity and all of its manifestations in the modern era has adopted this worldview,

00:07:08.320 despite the theological veneer of what they say.

00:07:13.080 So in other words, a Christian can, of course,

00:07:14.800 express profound theological truisms, 0.55

00:07:18.060 but at the same time, as they say, the proof is in the pudding. 0.68

00:07:22.500 And what I'm seeing is, so how is a Christian becoming a materialist paradigm 0.66

00:07:27.100 in a philosophical sense? 0.79

00:07:29.540 If you look at, if I speak to a Christian, 1.00

00:07:32.180 what is the greatest evil that you can engage in?

00:07:34.620 I think a lot of people will say what an atheist would say,

00:07:37.880 which is physical harm, okay, physically harming someone, and much worse, of course, killing 0.96

00:07:43.620 someone. And I agree, of course, those are great evils. No one would argue that. But unbeknownst

00:07:50.520 to most Christians, that was actually more of a minor aspect of the message of Christianity,

00:07:55.960 the entire ethos, the morality that was created. And in short, before I elaborate, the problem

00:08:02.800 with materialist Christianity, which in many ways has, like I said, permeated the worldview

00:08:07.380 of all Christians is that it perfectly comports with secularism and atheism. And that is why

00:08:12.740 Christianity is still allowed to live side by side with a secular or even atheistic world

00:08:17.920 environment, because it also agrees. All that we want to do is make sure no one's physically hurt.

00:08:25.040 There's no violence. But the question now becomes what happened to morality? That was a word that

00:08:30.460 used to be pivotal and important and fundamental to something like Christianity. Where's what is

00:08:35.840 their morality anymore. And I'm not talking, of course, about individual Christians. I'm sure 0.93

00:08:40.140 there are many devout Christians still in the world, but it's not something that is socially

00:08:44.100 acknowledged or something much less that is socially pursued that we talk about. Okay. So,

00:08:50.360 and once one, I think this is my realization, when I think about it and how morality is not 1.00

00:08:57.700 complete, is no Western people and Christians will say they're moral, but again, it's through 0.83

00:09:02.580 materialist paradigm. And you know that by simply looking at what used to be the greatest sins and 0.99

00:09:08.400 the greatest evils for a society. And all of them are to various degrees, completely accepted for

00:09:14.620 by Christians today. And, um, all one has to do is look at the sexual mores of the West today. 0.66

00:09:21.440 And very few Christians will even argue or, or, or talk about it or even dispute it. And they'd 0.91

00:09:26.720 be of course, uh, scandalized to feel like they have to talk about it. But if you look at historic

00:09:31.460 Christianity, biblical Christianity, Christianity in all of its forms, something like sexual mores,

00:09:37.780 sexual sins, that was one of the pinnacles and one of the most unquestioned aspects of

00:09:42.580 Christianity. So you see, this is why, why is it not being mentioned? Because, well, no one's

00:09:47.280 hurting anyone. And so that's what I mean. That's a perfect example of how a Christian adopts the

00:09:52.300 materialist worldview. Now there used to be something, and just to make it simple, you may 1.00

00:09:59.000 have heard, I'm sure you have, of course, many Catholics, Anglicans, of the seven deadly

00:10:03.480 sins, which actually very much informed the worldview of Christians in the pre-modern

00:10:08.980 era. And they are, I often miss, but let's see, wrath, greed, gluttony, envy, lust, sloth, 1.00

00:10:19.480 and I always miss Moen. Pride. Oh yeah, the worst one. Yeah, I know. The root of them 1.00

00:10:27.560 all. Yeah, you're right. Okay. So think about those seven things now. Okay. That is what a

00:10:33.000 Christian society thought about. Now these are all metaphysical. They're not material. Okay. These

00:10:37.760 were metaphysical principles. This is what Christianity was all about. Notice killing is

00:10:43.020 not one of the seven deadly sins. Why? Because it's a by-product. Of course it's evil and you

00:10:47.720 shouldn't do it, but it wasn't seen as a root cause. Now, when I look at these, the seven deadly

00:10:53.280 sins, which were fundamental to a Christian society, to Christendom, essentially, for

00:10:59.980 centuries, up until actually quite recently, not only are they not something that we talk

00:11:05.580 about or something we condemn, they are, in fact, what we now celebrate, and a bunch of

00:11:11.000 our economy is based on it.

00:11:13.440 And we call ourselves Christians, and we live with it, and we live in peace with this.

00:11:17.120 And I find that very interesting.

00:11:18.920 Pride, pride, of course, is exalted.

00:11:21.300 Pride, you know, is it Pride Month?

00:11:22.860 Think about that. Lust. That's everywhere you look. It's promoted. It's glamorized. Envy. Just think social media. Okay. Gluttony. Turn TV on. Everything's about, you know, putting images of food. Sloth. 0.96

00:11:40.700 So it's kind of amazing that to me, these are the principal issues. These are the first things that were actually at the heart of a Christian order. And they've just been completely so jettisoned and very few Christians even understand this. And that's the point. This is so subtle and so incremental that, um, and the reason is the best way I can put it is because Christians one way or the other over the decades and possibly centuries have just adopted a very materialist worldview, which is that. 0.93

00:12:08.100 yeah, we talk about the afterlife. We talk about sin. We talk about being saved. But in the end,

00:12:13.620 when it comes to society, we begin and end with just not hurting people. Okay. So that's become

00:12:21.000 the ultimate Christian virtue. And it is a virtue. I'm not arguing that, but I'm trying to say there

00:12:25.000 was so much more above it, which actually gave meaning to life. Now, what happens when society,

00:12:33.440 such as Western society, European society, jettisons what I'm talking about, which is

00:12:38.280 essentially the metaphysical aspect of Christianity. You can actually call it the spiritual aspect

00:12:43.120 because the physical or material aspect, what's the corollary? Is it metaphysical? The beyond

00:12:50.560 the physical? Well, that's the spiritual. And I just think it's funny because a lot of Christians

00:12:54.360 today, when they say the word spiritual, it means some sort of abstract, fuzzy feeling.

00:12:59.080 actually i think to be spiritual is to be engaged and to comprehend and try to exercise the

00:13:05.460 metaphysical aspects of christianity the things that are beyond the physical that are not measurable

00:13:10.420 that deal with morals and ethics and that sort of thing now when all that is jettisoned as it has

00:13:17.080 been in recent generations a vacuum is created and that's i think where we are and what does

00:13:22.480 nature abhor? It abhors a vacuum. Enter Islam. Well, Islam, of course, is its own body system.

00:13:29.960 It's its own religion. It has its own teachings. You know, one can be very hostile to it or critical 0.63

00:13:36.420 of it. And I'm, of course, associated with those views. But we have to be honest, it also brings

00:13:41.800 a sort of traditional worldview. It knows what a woman is and it knows what a man is. It's not

00:13:47.360 confused about that, for example. And it has all sorts of things that were very traditional that

00:13:52.400 Europeans and Christians would have agreed with historically. So I think that aspect be in its

00:13:57.960 confidence. So now you have a vacuum in Europe or in the West in general, because of the reasons

00:14:02.860 I've outlined dealing with the sort of slow melting away of Christianity based on these

00:14:08.540 philosophical or epistemological underpinnings. Now you have Islam coming in and it may have all 1.00

00:14:14.760 its problems and all, but it's still, it's very visceral, it's down to earth, and it does offer

00:14:19.820 all of these things that are filling the vacuum, okay? And this is why you find Western people who

00:14:25.740 are turned off and find no resonance in modern, secular, liberal culture, and they turn to 0.64

00:14:33.400 something like Islam, which on the heart of it doesn't make any sense. I wager if those people 0.99

00:14:38.720 actually had a true Christian upbringing, or according to the way I'm trying to describe it,

00:14:43.300 which is actually much more fused with a metaphysical understanding, they would not

00:14:47.900 find Islam appealing. But that's what I mean. There's a vacuum now so that even something that

00:14:53.240 is inherently inferior in as much as it offers something of a primordial conservative worldview

00:14:59.820 that still resonates with all humans, then it becomes appealing. And then it's all, especially

00:15:05.860 in this country, it's coalescing in a very strange way. As you all know now, there's a new

00:15:11.640 blasphemy code or about Islam, a new anti-Islamophobia or anti-Islam hostility thing. 0.99

00:15:20.800 And of course, this is just, this is that one more way to help Islam to become more empowered, 0.95

00:15:26.780 more entrenched. You can't even criticize it. And I haven't looked as closely as I'd like

00:15:31.060 to the wording, but it seems it's very fuzzy, intentionally so, and vague so that anything,

00:15:36.700 It says things like encouraging hostility or, well, who's going to decide all that?

00:15:43.280 And all of this, so the kind of Christianity that I'd like to see go away, 0.75

00:15:48.240 and I'd like to see it sort of bring back a more traditional form of Christianity

00:15:53.880 that prevailed during Christendom, well, what I call, let's put it this way,

00:15:58.780 I've tried to coin a word, I call it doormat Christianity. 0.83

00:16:01.900 And I think this is the modern form of Christianity whereby Christians are taught, 0.96

00:16:05.580 again, in keeping with what I'm saying, this materialist idea, to just be doormats, okay? 0.99

00:16:11.420 Christianity begins and ends by you being a doormat. You're non-confrontational, you lay 0.99

00:16:15.740 down, everyone walks all over you, and then you get to pat yourself on the shoulder and say, hey,

00:16:19.740 look, I'm virtuous, I'm good. It's also a way of turning a vice, cowardice into a virtue, I think,

00:16:28.380 and that's why it's become very prevalent, what I call doormat Christianity. Doormat Christianity 0.93

00:16:33.160 is not going to stand up against Islam, and that's what we're seeing. In fact, that kind of 1.00

00:16:37.600 Christianity, which is completely about just being passive, who do you think benefits from it 0.99

00:16:43.020 most of all? It's probably, the more of an enemy you are to Christianity, the more the prevalent 0.88

00:16:48.560 form of doormat Christianity works and serves perfectly to empower the opposite forces. 0.92

00:16:56.180 So I think Christians need to recapture and reclaim a sense of morality and a sense of 0.98

00:17:02.560 metaphysical because otherwise you don't it's and again i'm going back to the first premises 1.00

00:17:07.840 these are these are the building blocks without these i don't believe that let's say the islam

00:17:13.100 problem cannot necessarily be addressed in and of itself you can't maintain a sort of this current 0.82

00:17:18.880 culture which with all its confusions and sort of break away from christianity and then be able to 0.94

00:17:24.520 resist something like islam i think it's all very interconnected if you go back and you can easily 0.94

00:17:30.240 see this. Go back a century to the way Western Europeans and Westerners thought and Christians

00:17:34.820 thought, you wouldn't have this Islam problem at all. Even if it existed, it would immediately 1.00

00:17:39.960 be solved. So I think there's a lot of paralysis going on amongst Christians because they just 1.00

00:17:46.820 feel like, like I said, the best they can do is to just be what they've been taught and bred,

00:17:51.820 including, like I said, by forces that don't like Christianity. I saw a video in the Super Bowl

00:17:57.880 a couple years ago, and as you know, Super Bowl commercials tend to, they're very prominent and

00:18:05.660 very mainstream, and all it was was images of people washing people's feet. But for some reason,

00:18:12.940 all the people who were washing the feet looked like white traditional Christian people, and all

00:18:17.440 the people getting their feet washed were, well, one was a trans man, one was obviously, it was

00:18:23.040 like on a migrant border, and it was an illegal migrant, one was a woman committing an abortion,

00:18:27.520 and, or at an abortion center and people are protesting, but another woman's washing her

00:18:31.980 feet and all, and one was a criminal and a policeman was washing his feet. And then it

00:18:37.360 ended up by seeing Jesus didn't hate, he washed feet. And you can just see that kind of message,

00:18:42.760 how it is completely geared to weakening Christianity by also, but making you think

00:18:48.000 you're being a good Christian because there's no balance. Of course, Jesus washed feet. That's not

00:18:52.540 my argument, but there was a balance. Jesus also hurled tables and made a court of whips and

00:18:57.360 drove people and livestock out. So there is a room, I believe, for, well, the Bible says so,

00:19:03.420 righteous indignation that is at least funneled in a proper way. And all of that, I guess,

00:19:08.480 is missing. And in as much as people don't get that, I think a lot of this is futile.

00:19:13.900 And I'll end it by what I call the two swords theology. I just wrote a book that came out a

00:19:19.360 few months ago. It's called the two swords of Christ. And it deals with the military orders

00:19:23.360 and their battles with Islam, the Templars and the Hospitallers.

00:19:26.600 But there's a second meaning to the title, and it's basically in Luke,

00:19:30.600 where Christ says, if he doesn't have a garment, sell it and buy a sword.

00:19:34.240 And the disciples say, Lord, here are two swords, and he says, that is enough.

00:19:37.840 Now, of course, to modern-day Christians, that means absolutely nothing.

00:19:40.780 It doesn't mean anything about a real sword.

00:19:42.800 But, of course, there's a long and deep tradition, pre-modern, especially medieval,

00:19:46.740 understanding, which is the two swords.

00:19:48.540 One is spiritual, which I think modern Christians still accept, spiritual warfare. 0.57

00:19:52.120 but one is secular warfare okay and um that's that was the whole rationale for just war that

00:19:58.640 was the whole rationale for um the crusades which i'm sure a lot of people think are not what they

00:20:04.540 really were um but so that kind of mentality and again it's not about physical not necessarily

00:20:10.300 literal it's just about being bold and militant at least vocally and in in your approach to what's

00:20:17.400 happening because if you look back you zoom out and see what's been going on it's just been one

00:20:21.380 incremental slow degrade. And no matter how many, uh, no matter what people are saying or doing or

00:20:27.180 books or conferences, if you look at the scale, it goes down a little, it's like one step forward,

00:20:32.540 three steps back. And that's how it's been going. So I think in part with Christian revival and the

00:20:38.660 Islam threat, Christians just need to, again, go to these first things and really recapture a sense 0.95

00:20:44.600 of a morality that, uh, that is above and beyond just physical considerations. And once that is 1.00

00:20:50.480 done because like i said it's all interconnected the islam question will become a lot easier

00:20:55.520 to answer almost instinctively and very natively in the time we have left given that we're in

00:21:04.000 a kinetic war driven by and i realize oh it's the nuclear weapon it's this and that it's this and 0.81

00:21:09.240 that it is at its essence it's radical islam i'm not saying that we should have gone at the time 0.81

00:21:15.000 we went or how we went. That's a discussion for another day. But you cannot talk about

00:21:21.540 what's happened in Persian Iran without getting to the core of it, that this is one of the most

00:21:28.140 radical, not the most radical part of Islam in this whole thing with the Mahdi and the Imam.

00:21:34.380 And it almost seems like people, oh, my gosh, we got to go back after 9-11. We have to go back

00:21:38.680 after, you know, after the Iraq war or after the during the Iraq war or during the time of

00:21:44.400 President Trump put the put the travel ban in.

00:21:47.440 We have to go back and study it.

00:21:48.920 Yes, you have to, because a lot of Westerners like people in London, the elites in London,

00:21:55.240 people in Norway, people in Sweden, people in New York City, some people in Texas, they

00:22:01.580 believe if you just don't confront it and you look the other way, it's going to take

00:22:06.300 care of itself and everything is going to be fine.

00:22:08.720 I'm here to disabuse you of that.

00:22:11.280 And I can point to some of the smartest people in the world and some of the best researchers and writers in the world.

00:22:16.880 They give you a historical record where that is the exact that does definitely does not work.

00:22:22.680 In fact, it will lead you to be conquered.

00:22:25.720 Raymond, in the time we have left now, given your historical perspective of their previous invasions, 0.97

00:22:31.820 do we have a fighting chance given the weak willed nature of our elites and our political systems in the Christian West 0.60

00:22:39.500 in particularly the United States of America to combat this, to stop it, and then to reverse it,

00:22:44.980 sir? I think, you know, the West has definitely the material forces, the economy to do what needs

00:22:53.420 to be done. And but it's as you say, the question is the will. And I don't know, because the way I

00:23:01.620 see it, I see things from a very kind of zoomed out long view with historical continuities.

00:23:07.800 And if you look even at the West, just the last 50 years, 60, 70 years, it's a continuous downhill. And there's, you know, it's locked, it's connected with its civilizational degradation. Okay, it's culture, it's morals. You know, this, it's funny, I don't know if I mentioned this to you before, but the historical Islamic conquests that we know that we were talking about in the seventh century, you know, historians still really can't give you an answer how it happened, because Eastern Roman Empire, the Persian Sasanians were very

00:23:37.780 very powerful. And no one really, how can some, you know, just a small band of Arabs described

00:23:43.060 even in Muslim sources as just having, you know, being naked and whatever weapons they can find, 0.91

00:23:47.880 how could they conquer two empires and then overrun all these massive lands? And, you know, 0.83

00:23:53.640 today's historians can't give you a good answer, but they'll come up with something and I can

00:23:56.660 give you what they say. But the Christians of the time who lived there, they were convinced it was 0.81

00:24:01.500 it was God's punishment that God had raised this, these people up to chastise them for

00:24:06.940 their sins. And ironically, the most, the most influential writing, it's known as the Apocalypse

00:24:13.000 by Pseudo Methodius. And it was published around 690 at the height of the Arab conquests. It came

00:24:18.720 out in Syriac, but it continued influencing Christians. Even in 1683 at the siege of Vienna,

00:24:23.660 it was being translated and published within Vienna to explain why Christians were being

00:24:28.300 attacked by the Turks. And that one says not only because Christians had lost their way,

00:24:33.820 but it was due to sexual immorality. And it actually talked about men cross-dressing, 0.76

00:24:39.140 women acting like men. And it was very, very hugely popular. Now, of course, from a secular

00:24:43.880 historical point of view, that's nonsense. That's not why Islam prevailed. But when I look at the 1.00

00:24:49.480 current situation today and I see the West is so much more powerful than Byzantium and the Persians 0.93

00:24:56.020 were vis-a-vis Arabia the West now is much more powerful vis-a-vis the Islamic world and yet look 1.00

00:25:02.600 at what's happening Muslims are overrunning Europe they're having their way churches churches are 0.99

00:25:08.280 allowing them to come in and proclaim the Shahada while like you said you know it's not it's not it's 0.65

00:25:13.460 a one-way sort of cultural or religious dialogue so I'm wondering to what extent is this the 0.89

00:25:19.580 punishment of God because you know centuries down the line you know when the world completely

00:25:24.140 changed posterity will look back and this will be an even greater mystery than the original 0.88

00:25:29.300 seventh century conquest because all they'll know is well we know that europe in the west was really

00:25:33.700 really powerful we know that muslim world wasn't and that there were migrants but somehow or other

00:25:39.260 they took over and it's really a mystery so i wonder if it's the same reason given by pseudomethodius 0.62

00:25:44.860 in the apocalypse which is you know complete immorality turning away from god highlighted

00:25:50.100 and underscored, especially by sexual, gender-confused type of immorality.

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00:30:34.100 I'm delighted that we've got Pastor Joel Webin on the show, who's the founder of Right Response Ministries.

00:30:40.960 And the reason we asked Pastor Webin to come on the show is last week, Senator Cruz shared an article.

00:30:50.760 Many people would have seen this. It's basically lit up. Everyone in the sector, their Twitter algorithms lit up with this.

00:31:00.100 And Senator Cruz said, read every word of this. It's the best and most comprehensive explanation of what we're fighting.

00:31:06.960 And his tweet had three million visualizations. The article he was pushing out had, I think, five million or so visualizations. And it basically got everyone talking about, for some corners of evangelicalism, the idea that traditional Catholics are plotting a takeover of the American state.

00:31:36.300 But that's not really what I want to discuss in that, because what really interested me is the standing assumption, and I think this came through very clearly, that the author's principal preoccupation was that American evangelicalism might be losing its grip on Zionism, on the pro-Israel state stance,

00:32:03.500 which has subsumed a huge section of contemporary American evangelicalism.

00:32:10.480 And I wanted to dig into that because it wasn't always so.

00:32:14.920 And Pastor Joel Webben has been active on this issue in social media.

00:32:19.460 I thought he would have interesting things to say,

00:32:22.100 especially to our largely evangelical audience.

00:32:25.140 Pastor Webben, thank you very much indeed for coming on the show.

00:32:28.860 Tell me, if you wouldn't mind, in your own words then,

00:32:33.000 about this wider debate why are some dispensationalist evangelicals concerned

00:32:41.460 that the evangelical institution if i can use that word the evangelical churches

00:32:48.100 um grip on the narrative the pro-zionist narrative might be slipping yeah um zionism

00:32:59.520 is dispensational Zionism, I should say, is it's a very modern notion. This is, it's not just that

00:33:07.920 it's, oh, well, this is what Protestants have always believed. No, you know, at this point,

00:33:13.660 most people are probably aware of the Schofield Study Bible, you know, and Joseph Darby and

00:33:19.220 these guys that came in the mid 1800s. Dispensationalism, dispensational Zionism

00:33:26.120 is about 150 years old at this point, and so it's very modern, whereas the Protestant Reformation 0.87

00:33:32.020 tracks back for 500 years. And so when you look at Martin Luther, you look at John Calvin,

00:33:37.140 you look at Zwingli, you look at all these Jonathan Edwards, you know, any of the Protestant

00:33:41.720 reformers who outlined the Protestant position, none of them were dispensationalists. And to break

00:33:49.580 those terms down just briefly. Dispensational Zionism is the idea that all of these Old 0.97

00:33:57.280 Testament promises that we find in the Bible for Israel that are physical promises, promises about

00:34:03.680 the land being recaptured or a temple being rebuilt and these kinds of things, that these

00:34:11.680 promises are meant to be understood. They've either already in a preterist, meaning past,

00:34:17.460 the Latin for past had been past fulfilled, or if there are any future instances of these promises

00:34:23.540 that are still yet to be fulfilled, they have a spiritual fulfillment, not a physical fulfillment.

00:34:30.700 So all of the Catholics and all of the Protestants until, again, very recently, the last 100,

00:34:36.840 150 years, understood that whether or not Israel was a nation state in the year of our Lord 2026 or

00:34:43.260 not, had no bearing on whether or not biblical prophecy will be fulfilled and the return of

00:34:51.380 Christ. But somewhere along the line, there became this very wooden hermeneutic, this very

00:34:57.020 literal, physical interpretation of Old Testament prophecies that essentially got evangelicals,

00:35:05.340 which is a subset of Protestants, but a large subset, to believe that Christ can't actually

00:35:10.880 come in his final physical return that that can't take place what every christian desires and wants

00:35:17.420 to see that um that that won't actually happen until the nation of state of israel has been

00:35:23.760 re-established um and israel widens in its territory achieves hegemony and all the the

00:35:30.920 boundaries mike huckabee is saying this ted cruz is saying this the the old boundaries all the way

00:35:36.620 from the river to the sea has to belong to israel the temple mount and a new temple actually

00:35:41.880 fashioned and then we'll get the return of christ that's not how the protestants historically saw

00:35:47.260 it that's certainly not how catholics have seen it that is a modern innovation uh but many

00:35:52.260 evangelicals have fallen for it tell okay so first of all let's synthesize this protestants

00:36:00.500 evangelicals catholics orthodox for the vast historical sweep of history

00:36:08.840 right up until about 150 years ago they were all

00:36:13.380 supersessionist right yes and then at around that time um of schofield and

00:36:21.560 derby and all the rest of it um there was a re-evaluation of of

00:36:27.340 concepts which which became under the bracket of dispensationist dispensationalist these terms

00:36:34.780 these two terms very fluently used in evangelicalism are hardly heard at all uh in in in catholic

00:36:42.640 debate as catholics talk to one another um but it is interesting to hear from you as an evangelical

00:36:51.540 that this dispensationalist view

00:36:57.680 was not held at the time of the Reformation

00:36:59.900 for centuries, not until centuries afterwards.

00:37:03.880 Right.

00:37:04.660 Dispensationalism, it comes from the word dispensations,

00:37:07.200 which are just, they're segments of time,

00:37:09.600 eras of time.

00:37:10.660 So a dispensation of 80 years

00:37:13.680 or a dispensation of 200 years.

00:37:16.420 The idea of dispensationalism,

00:37:18.300 it goes against supersessionism

00:37:20.240 is the idea of covenant.

00:37:21.540 that God has been doing something, and he's not doing it ad hoc, right? It's not on the fly,

00:37:29.040 but that God, who formed the world before the foundations of the world were laid, he had a plan.

00:37:34.380 We're not on plan B. The church is not plan B, whereas Israel, God's chosen people's plan A,

00:37:40.200 but that didn't work out, you know, so God paused plan A for the last 2,000 years and was working

00:37:46.020 on plan B with the church, and then eventually he'll fold those things together. Dispensationalism

00:37:50.200 is the idea that God is doing a different thing in each of these dispensations, each of these

00:37:57.220 eras of time, whereas covenant theology or supersessionism is the idea that God has had

00:38:03.300 a plan from the very beginning, and his plan with Israel under the Old Covenant, Old Testament

00:38:09.660 Israel, Israel according to the flesh, is that through them he would bring about the promised

00:38:14.700 seed, and the seed is singular. St. Paul says this in the book of Galatians, we see this in

00:38:19.700 Ephesians, multiple New Testament passages, Paul, when he's commenting, commentating and

00:38:26.220 exegeting the Abrahamic covenant from the Old Testament, Genesis chapter 12, this promised seed,

00:38:31.780 he even goes out of his way verbatim to say it is not seeds, plural, but rather seed, singular,

00:38:37.620 and the seed is Christ. So what is the purpose of old covenant Israel according to the flesh

00:38:43.480 in the Old Testament? God was using them to bring about eventually the promised Messiah,

00:38:48.680 to bring about the Christ.

00:38:50.960 And then upon the completion, once we have the new covenant,

00:38:54.760 we have the incarnation of Jesus Christ, his life, his death, his resurrection,

00:38:59.040 his ascension, and the inauguration of the new covenant and the church,

00:39:03.900 then Israel, according to the flesh, old covenant Israel,

00:39:07.180 they're not just discarded, they're warmly invited in.

00:39:11.340 But sadly, many of them, not all, but many of them chose to reject that invitation.

00:39:16.760 The analogy or illustration that I often will use is that Old Covenant Israel, according to the flesh, was like the construction crew with scaffolding that God used for multiple millennia to build a glorious cathedral of true Israel, the church that is rooted ultimately in Christ.

00:39:42.180 He is the promised seed. He is the root, the root of Jesse. It's Jesus. And then this church is to

00:39:49.640 be made up of both Jews and Gentiles. So it's not that the Jews are sent home, but they're warmly

00:39:55.820 invited in. But what evangelicals, dispensationalists have been doing is they basically said

00:40:01.280 when the scaffolding, when the cathedral was finally completed, they said, no, the scaffolding

00:40:06.180 is actually, that's the cathedral. Leave the scaffolding up. The cathedral is a sideshow.

00:40:11.480 That's just something that God's doing temporarily.

00:40:13.620 But the real show, the real exciting thing is, look at this beautiful scaffolding.

00:40:22.640 It's like, no, God was doing something through Israel to bring about the Messiah.

00:40:26.820 And then out of that, the new covenant is inaugurated. 0.84

00:40:29.520 The church is incompleted.

00:40:31.460 And God invites into this church, both Jews and Gentiles, to have union with Christ, his son, by grace and by the power of the Holy Spirit. 0.62

00:40:40.780 And the sad thing is that Jews still to this day, religious Jews and many ethnic Jews, still reject Jesus as the promised Messiah.

00:40:50.900 That's somewhat to be expected. 0.61

00:40:54.460 Ultimately, God would have to change their hearts.

00:40:57.140 They would have to be born again like any person.

00:40:59.200 You must be born again and come to faith in Jesus Christ. 0.99

00:41:02.920 What's shocking is not really the disposition of Jews. 0.99

00:41:08.120 What's shocking is the disposition of Christians, predominantly evangelicals,

00:41:12.700 as you're giving the lay of the land.

00:41:14.140 There's Catholic, there's Orthodox, there's Protestants.

00:41:17.460 Evangelical is a subset underneath Protestants. 0.98

00:41:20.000 You have the mainline Protestants that are all gay-affirming. 0.94

00:41:23.400 The rainbow flags are outside of their buildings, church buildings. 0.96

00:41:26.440 Then the evangelicals tend to be the more traditionalist, traditional marriage,

00:41:31.280 traditional this, that, and the other, and they vote Republican, GOP.

00:41:34.640 The problem, though, is they've bought into dispensationalism,

00:41:37.260 And so they think that whether it's America's success politically or whether it's the success of Christianity and the return of Christ, that the physical expression of Israel taking over the land, holding the land, rebuilding the temple, that all this is integral for those things to take place.

00:41:55.320 could you just give me i'm talking about a lay of the land could you just give me an indication

00:42:02.620 if you wouldn't mind guesstimating on this what proportion of evangelicals are dispensationalist

00:42:10.200 and which proportion would be as a percent would be supersessionist yeah for evangelicals i would

00:42:17.200 say that, um, probably 85, 90%, an overwhelming majority because within evangelicalism, again,

00:42:25.840 that being a large subset of Protestantism, um, most evangelicals don't really appreciate the

00:42:33.000 original Protestant reformers who tended to be, um, they were, they were reformed. They were

00:42:38.660 Calvinist, you know, if I could use such a dirty word on the air, Calvinist, you know, um, I, I'm

00:42:44.080 a Calvinist, for better or worse. There are strengths and there are weaknesses. But Jonathan

00:42:49.520 Edwards and Martin Luther and John Calvin, these were the original reformers. They were all

00:42:53.760 Calvinist. Most Protestants today are not. They're Arminian. Most evangelicals today are Arminian 0.92

00:43:01.300 in their view of salvation, their view of God's sovereignty. And so most of them, most evangelicals,

00:43:08.480 when they think of the original reformers, they think of Calvinism, like election, God choosing

00:43:14.200 with salvation, those kinds of things. And they have an aversion to that. And so they've kind of

00:43:19.220 turned away. It's ironic, but Protestants today have turned away from the original protest, 0.68

00:43:24.700 the original Protestants, and because they've been turned off by the soteriology, which is just

00:43:30.160 doctrine of salvation, the emphasis of God's sovereignty. They think that there should be 0.91

00:43:34.440 more elevating of human free will.

00:43:38.400 And so they've turned sour

00:43:39.720 on the original Protestant Reformation.

00:43:43.200 And in doing so for salvific,

00:43:46.220 soteriological reasons,

00:43:48.420 they detached themselves from the history.

00:43:51.640 So most evangelicals today,

00:43:53.160 they don't have a clue

00:43:54.580 what Martin Luther or John Calvin

00:43:56.960 or Jonathan Edwards or these guys thought

00:43:58.780 about supersessionism

00:44:00.400 or the future role of Israel

00:44:04.340 in the eschaton. They're just, they're not aware. They're ignorant. Certainly moral virtue is of

00:44:11.840 infinite eternal value that matters most. But there are different categories, right? So

00:44:17.780 there could be someone, there's lots of guys like this. Timothy Gordon is a great example. He does

00:44:23.900 a lot of good work. He's Catholic. Dr. Taylor Marshall, he's Catholic. He does a lot of great

00:44:30.120 work. Calvin Robinson is a friend and he's actually coming on our network and being a

00:44:37.480 contributor and doing a show with us. That's NXR Studios, New Christian Rite Studios. This

00:44:44.400 kind of been birthed out of Rite Response. Rite Response still continues, but having two

00:44:48.240 organizations and all these guys are Catholic. Calvin Robinson is not Roman Catholic, but

00:44:53.400 he's Catholic for all intents and purposes. And my point is the reason why we're able to

00:44:59.980 unite is because there are different categories. Calvin is, for instance, is a dear friend.

00:45:08.320 He's not an elder in my church, right? Evangelicals are still going to have their

00:45:13.200 individual churches. And Catholics, of course, are going to have their individual churches.

00:45:16.220 But there's church, the ecclesia, right? But then there's the realm of politics. There's

00:45:23.360 the realm of culture. There are other realms. And so politically and culturally, I think

00:45:29.940 that supersessionist Protestants, evangelicals, actually make for a very natural ally to

00:45:38.080 traditional supersessionist Catholics. Because what we're both seeing is that, yes, our intramural

00:45:44.440 debates about theology, it's not insignificant. It matters. We have real disagreement. And we know

00:45:49.980 we're not relativists, right? We can't both be right. If we have two contrary opinions, somebody's

00:45:54.360 right, somebody's wrong, all that matters. But we're realizing there's an existential threat

00:45:58.480 right now, which is foreign. It's foreign influence that we need to be able to have 1.00

00:46:04.900 a country that is truly America first. So I am finding myself very comfortable reaching across

00:46:12.940 the aisle politically and culturally with Catholics and saying, look, this is not what 0.66

00:46:19.120 the Bible teaches. There's a lot of Christians who've been manipulated thinking that they have

00:46:24.640 a divine obligation politically and geopolitically and with their money and giving and all these

00:46:32.920 kinds of things to support something that the Bible doesn't actually require. And so I think

00:46:38.100 that, yes, a broad coalition on this issue, it's not only possible, Ben, but it's already well

00:46:44.820 underway. It's happening. So first concentrate on the existential battles, the existential threats,

00:46:53.720 and then is the opportunity to pat one another in a fraternal way on the back

00:46:59.900 look out look at our look our fellow look at our fellow um look our fellow combatants in the eye

00:47:07.380 and say you're going to hell um i've always said by the way because i spent like a lot of time

00:47:13.000 um in politics when i worked in the uk parliament and in the european parliament working with

00:47:17.700 evangelicals who were very well informed over their elements of their belief and I had no better

00:47:24.860 allies working on the pro-life front and I always said I work best with with evangelicals who will

00:47:32.320 do that who will look me in the eye and say you're going to hell um and the only thing I ask is the

00:47:37.340 opportunity just to push back a little bit on all of my own heresies um back and then we'll have

00:47:42.700 that debate um what i can't abide is is what passes for ecumenism is where you just have the

00:47:49.720 institutional leaders of the respective churches who frankly don't believe a word of their own 0.86

00:47:54.680 religion anyway getting together having these big conflabs and they put out these ridiculous

00:47:59.680 statements um where they say look how much we we hold in common of course you hold a lot in common

00:48:04.840 what you hold in common is that you don't believe the elements of your faith um i think it's far

00:48:09.220 more serious for people who actually do believe the elements of their faith to sit down and talk

00:48:14.400 to reach out especially when there are these existential threats right across the west

00:48:20.400 i ask you pastor webin please go ahead that's i was going to say that's um i think that was the

00:48:27.420 failure of like a billy graham so if if your listeners are what i still don't understand

00:48:31.140 what's an evangelical think billy graham he was the quintessential evangelical protestant

00:48:37.040 And he would host these massive crusades, you know, and fill football stadiums.

00:48:43.460 You know, I mean, he was a phenomenon.

00:48:44.780 He was, you know, friends with Carter, with all these different, you know, presidents and would frequent the White House.

00:48:51.060 And I mean, he was a huge, huge figure.

00:48:54.420 But the problem is that Billy Graham, who I appreciate in some respect, although I would have some disagreements.

00:48:59.880 The problem is that later on, towards the latter end of his ministry, he was no longer just partnering with Catholics for, for instance, the protection of the unborn or on certain, you know, issues politically and culturally.

00:49:14.240 But he started having in his crusades, he would preach the gospel.

00:49:18.440 He'd have, you know, altar calls to salvation and prayer.

00:49:21.680 And he would have, you know, Catholic priests down there at the stage, you know, praying.

00:49:26.560 And when he started to partner in terms of the religious aspects and not just broad, like we, you know, Catholics and Protestants, we believe in the triune God, we believe in the incarnation, we believe in the resurrection, all these different things.

00:49:41.020 But they started to partner on how we're saved and these kinds of things.

00:49:46.000 That's where I think he lost some credibility and where it began to get off the rails.

00:49:51.020 And so I actually appreciate what you just said, Ben, because a lot of guys aren't willing to be honest about that.

00:49:57.140 It sounds like you're devout in your faith and you would have sharp disagreements with me.

00:50:01.020 I would have sharp disagreements with you.

00:50:02.600 But we could do something like this, this show, and have a reasonable degree of alignment.

00:50:08.080 And then at the same time, you know, if I was like, hey, I'm going to, tomorrow I'm going to become, you know, the priest of your parish.

00:50:17.000 You would say, we love you, Joel, but heck no.

00:50:21.020 no you're not qualified you're not no you you don't get to be and i think that it's it's the

00:50:27.680 conflating of categories where alliances that may have been well-meaning initially become

00:50:35.040 compromise and so what i'm saying is catholics and protestants have real disagreements theologically

00:50:40.600 but where we align to save the country politically i think is absolutely not only permissible but

00:50:48.000 commendable and vital.

00:51:18.000 Thank you.

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Bannon's War Room - April 09, 2026

WarRoom Battleground EP 985： Stopping The Islamification Of America

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