00:00:28.840I wish in my soul, I wish that any of these people had a conscience.
00:00:34.720Ask yourself, what is my task and what is my purpose?
00:00:38.480If that answer is to save my country, this country will be saved.
00:00:44.800War Room. Here's your host, Stephen K. Bannon.
00:00:54.040Good evening, Hanwell here at the helm on Steve Bannon's War Room.
00:00:58.840I've got Jacob Reynolds, who's the head of policy at Matthias Corvinus Collegium, that great think tank, one of the great legacy projects launched and financed by Viktor Orban here on the show tonight to talk a bit about the Hungarian elections.
00:01:16.060And he has an analysis on that, which I would like to start off with, just because like my own, it's somewhat idiosyncratic in that it's not what most of the mainstream media is picking up on.
00:01:29.200It's not their narrative. But I happen to think, and I share his conclusion pretty solidly, I ask him to talk a bit about that, what his reaction to the Viktor Orban defeat is and what he thinks it means.
00:01:41.900And then I'm going to talk about the Politico article mentioning Ursula von der Leyen and the power grab that she has announced on the back of Orban's defeat, about which Jacob's been pretty active on social media.
00:02:02.540And then after I did the short ad read halfway in the first half of the show, I'll talk about the article that he's had published, developing these themes in the legendary Brussels signal.
00:02:17.140So, Jacob, welcome onto the show. Thanks for joining us this evening.
00:02:21.540Firstly, then tell us, what is your reading of the defeat from Sunday?
00:02:28.920what do you think it means because we know what the the mainstream media thinks it means we know
00:02:33.800what ursula von der Leyen says she thinks it means that it's a defeat for economic nationalism it's
00:02:40.280a defeat for populism it's a return uh for hungary within the strabidly pro-european fold what do you
00:02:49.000take out of this yeah well firstly i can't collect speak for the entire uh matthias
00:02:55.080i'm mcc brussels but that won't stand in the way of the analysis i think it's important to note in
00:03:01.080the first instance that the defeat of orban in in hungary is obviously an enormous defeat really
00:03:06.940significant uh the blow in this case and it's clearly a demand uh for for change we should
00:03:12.300make no kind of bones about that but one thing that's very important and interesting from the
00:03:16.840campaign is the the challenger peto maggior formerly an insider in orban's own party he
00:03:22.920never once challenged, as it were, the ideological project with which Viktor Orban is so strongly
00:03:29.000associated. So he was very careful to kind of clothe himself in Hungarian national clothing,
00:03:36.120to feature the Hungarian national flag prominently, to maintain and pledge to maintain and even
00:03:42.600strengthen Viktor Orban's policies on migration and has promised on certain things that Orban
00:03:48.960was famous for as well such as not allowing uh ukraine's accession to the european union so
00:03:53.340the the level of ideology there wasn't necessarily a challenge to those things that orban is
00:03:58.860associated with but at the same time it's important to note that there's there is a reason why uh
00:04:05.340figures from alex soros to us lavanderlion was celebrating the the victory of peta magia and
00:04:12.060that's because the one thing that he will concede on and won't maintain from the orban era is
00:04:18.620precisely that Orbán always demanded Hungary's right to choose, fundamentally that question of
00:04:24.500sovereignty. And that's the kind of thing that it seems already is kind of being given up by
00:04:30.500Petr Magyar in promising to implement certain reforms that the EU has long demanded of Hungary
00:04:36.180and that Orbán always has stayed away from accessing to. So in that respect, there is a
00:04:43.160populist quality to Petr Magyar, and I'm sure that promise of fundamental change and reform,
00:04:49.560which resonates right across the globe in this big populist moment, he was certainly able to
00:04:55.080kind of capitalize on that and to maintain these important things. But at the same time,
00:04:59.000he does represent a new model, a model of accommodation to the European Union.
00:05:07.000So, I mean, I think that's a pretty accurate reading of it.
00:05:10.280My reading of this, I want your take on that, is that really, I think, and you can certainly say this with the benefit of hindsight, I think you could have said it before, to be honest with you, that Viktor Orban's going for this, I think we'll do the fifth cumulative term, after 16 continuous years, was pushing somewhat at the electoral laws of gravity.
00:05:40.280Because if you remember what the UK was like in 1997, after the Tories had been in for 18 years, it's just a bit longer, but not a huge degree longer.
00:05:51.660People get restless. In a democratic country, people get restless, and 16 years is a long time.
00:05:56.940They want to exercise their agency in determining the direction of their country.
00:06:03.080And against the mainstream media narratives, the mainstream media's narrative, I would simply suggest if the country had really wanted to reject urbanism, it would have picked someone from the left.
00:06:18.200And it didn't. It picked someone who, as you were saying, up until as recently as February 2024, just two years ago, was still in Fidesz, right?
00:06:28.780And it's a very short period of time to come out and start a new movement. And I think those sort of things are what the mainstream media are either misreading or trying to do a bit of narrative shaping to justify their agenda.
00:06:47.060Now, that brings us back on to Ursula von der Leyen.
00:06:51.280Tell us then, before going into this, for our largely American audience,
00:06:55.720that won't probably be so, well, there are a lot of Europeans
00:08:08.460You've got the European Parliament, which has some degree of power,
00:08:12.180is largely a kind of in my opinion largely a ceremonial uh institution and then the majority
00:08:17.680of the work happens in what's called the european council which is the where all of the heads of
00:08:21.200states get together and on most issues they vote by qualified majority so they take a majority of
00:08:27.980the people in the council though it's weighted slightly depending on uh how big the country is
00:08:31.940and so on most issues they vote by that kind of majoritarian uh voting system or the vaguely
00:08:37.080majoritarian voting system but on certain issues really important fundamental issues it's always
00:08:43.040been understood that you have to have complete unanimity so every country has to sign up to
00:08:47.900to a particular proposal and foreign policy is obviously one of those really important
00:08:52.720fundamental sovereign areas of national life and so historically and up until now the european
00:08:59.060union works on the basis of unanimity so if the european union wants to make a foreign policy
00:09:03.520decision that affects the whole european union then everybody has to agree to it and the lesson
00:09:09.120that the european union has very much learned from the as it were victor orban era is that
00:09:15.280this is an enormous problem because it means that a country like hungary which has a different take
00:09:20.620for example on the the war in ukraine uh hungary can effectively block certain decisions uh and
00:09:27.440or use its veto to extract concessions on these issues and this has been hugely problematic for
00:09:33.360the European Union. They've wanted to have a much more assertive policy on Ukraine, for example,
00:09:38.140certainly the European Commission has. They've wanted to have a more assertive policy. Orban's
00:09:42.200always been able to hold it up by exercising his veto. And the lesson they draw from that
00:09:46.600is that it's time to abolish that veto, abolish the unanimity requirement in the European Council
00:09:53.420voting. This is itself a very controversial kind of idea, even among lots of other European
00:10:00.000union countries because lots of small countries would for example miss out but essentially
00:10:03.660this is their dream is the european commissioners the von der Leyen's dream to move to a situation
00:10:08.540where one country no longer gets to exercise that veto which in effect means that no country gets
00:10:14.700to exercise its sovereignty with regard to these fundamental decisions are there any issues of
00:10:22.020practical importance on the foreign policy front that would come you basically said it but i want
00:10:28.280you to say it again. What are the foreign policy issues that would then come into play
00:10:34.640if the European Union switched to qualified majority voting on foreign policy issues
00:10:42.580rather than unanimity? That is to say if smaller countries or even larger countries lost the
00:10:47.500veto power. And there's a question mark over Slovakia here. But if they lost their, that
00:10:53.580say with regards to russia but if they lost their um their uh if the the the veto power the hold up
00:11:01.180on simply one country even malta doesn't matter because because if it's malta if it's germany on
00:11:07.140this point they have the same veto blocking right what would the the practical implications of this
00:11:13.660be well it's important to understand the context which is that over the last few years uh the
00:11:20.500European Union has kind of abrogated more and more power to itself and wanted to play a much
00:11:25.720bigger role in foreign policy and international issues. Some of this started with the coronavirus
00:11:30.280pandemic, where the European Union wanted to be effectively in charge of all of the lockdowns and
00:11:35.620wanted to procure all of the vaccines, et cetera, et cetera. And similarly, in foreign policy,
00:11:39.640since the war in Ukraine, they wanted to have a much more assertive role. And in this case,
00:11:43.640they've wanted the ability to send weapons, maybe even engage in weapons manufacturing
00:11:48.820to go as far you might imagine going as far as if there's a possible peace deal that troops are
00:11:54.020involved the european union will want to be involved in that might want to set up its own
00:11:57.420army so there are a whole number of issues another classic one has been the example of the the kind
00:12:03.300of seized russian frozen assets which the european union has want to put to work in in ukraine and so
00:12:08.660i mean in the near term it's really this issue of ukraine that they want to get around this
00:12:12.340a veto for it's somewhat ironic isn't it that they're waiting for they're waiting because of
00:12:19.520course to make this change they're going to be they're going to need um unanimity to get this
00:12:25.280change they can't do this change they can't abolish the national veto by qualified majority
00:12:29.700voting they're going to need um uh unanimity on that which is probably why they're they were
00:12:35.700waiting for um for victor orban to vacate the scene on that point i'm going to come back to
00:12:41.840Just two minutes after this short shout out to one of our sponsors for this evening.
00:12:47.380Because there's another point here, Jacob, that I'd like to run through with you.
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00:14:25.120Back now with Jacob Reynolds, head of policy at the Matthias Corvinus Collegium.
00:14:31.920Jacob, am I being cynical here? You mentioned earlier on the issue that Peter Maggio wants to get, not unreasonably, wants to get his hands on the 35 billion euros worth of infrastructure financing that the European Union has illegitimately blocked in order to destabilise the Viktor Orban government.
00:14:59.160he wants to get his hands on that money
00:15:01.660because a large part of it would have been provided
00:15:27.160and so on the line has indicated that they know without jumping through a few hoops that money
00:15:35.440will be released rapidly it strikes me that the european union has played a very cynical game
00:15:41.220here they've tried to manipulate the outcome of this election in part with hungarians own money
00:15:47.060in order to to get victor orban an obstacle out of the way in order to push through with this this0.50
00:15:57.000power grab which they haven't just wanted for the last six months or since the ukraine war
00:16:01.440brussels has been looking to to move foreign policy over to to qualified majority voting for
00:16:07.900decades um is there is there a straight line here do you think between the withholding of the 35
00:16:14.500billion dollars of funding and the eventual goal of brussels to take greater control and direction
00:16:22.440over shaping the european union's foreign policy program well there was definitely i think a direct
00:16:30.200line between the withholding of these funds and the desire to see the back of victor orban
00:16:34.320it was always said about these by the european union officials themselves but especially by
00:16:39.260their propagandists it was always said that this kind of intervention uh and this kind of they
00:16:45.140would call it the enforcement of european values in their kind of orwellian terminology uh it was
00:16:49.840always said that these were supposed to be levers that they would use to either get Orban to change
00:16:54.160his behaviour and to give up his kind of attachment to Hungarian sovereignty, or later on to make
00:16:59.520things very difficult for Orban to achieve re-election. Now, don't get me wrong, it was
00:17:03.680clear that this was a kind of momentous landslide election result, so there were clearly lots of
00:17:07.780factors at play, but certainly the difficult situation in the Hungarian economy, which is in
00:17:12.780part because of these withheld funds from the European Union, that certainly would have played
00:17:17.160a role. And the challenger, Peter Maggio, made no mistake that he was going to be the ones who
00:17:23.520would deliver the sanctioned assets, in effect, if he were to win. And the European Union here
00:17:29.700has a tested playbook, because they did the very same thing in Poland, where they withheld
00:17:34.820significant sums of money that Poland was entitled to. And then the day, almost the day after,
00:17:41.200their man, Donald Tusk, won the election or formed the coalition that won the election and ousted
00:17:46.480the old conservative government they picked up the phone and they said well now here's all of1.00
00:17:50.740your money so it was clear that this was a reward for the the polish people choosing the right0.89
00:17:55.380person and it was very obvious that a similar reward would be in the offing if they chose the
00:18:01.060right person in the european union's eyes in hungary now what what is kind of what is their
00:18:06.560quid pro quo here they're going to give him all of this money but they expect something in return
00:18:11.020and in this case they don't just expect him to lift his veto on the current money that they want
00:18:16.000to send to ukraine but they also want him to implement a series of reforms they call them
00:18:21.440reforms in line with european values but reforms that would effectively give the european union
00:18:25.320a much greater degree of leverage inside hungary such so that in the future if the hungarian people
00:18:31.240elect another conservative figure uh that or even against this existing one they will have the
00:18:35.720levers that they can pull uh to kind of shape events in hungary it's very worth uh mentioning
00:18:42.500on that point that the brussels relationship with the smaller countries and the the east
00:18:48.960the eastern accession countries especially moving further out um is very different from brussels
00:18:54.580relationship with say france or germany um on the other hand because they they have far more ability
00:19:01.200to drive uh to capture the the political elites of the smaller country and smaller countries
00:19:07.620Obviously, I'm going to have less proposed, less resistance to the European Union juggernaut.
00:19:17.080I want to come on to this excellent article that you had out in Brussels, Signal, here.
00:19:23.740And I'll pick up with your line in there that populism means nothing without national sovereignty.
00:19:30.200Just say a bit what you mean about that.
00:19:33.240And then I'm going to sort of pick up something that you mentioned in the article.
00:19:37.620Yeah, well, this is quite an important point to understand, because it's clear that the European Union is going to allow Peter Maguire, at least rhetorically, his rhetoric on controlling migration.
00:19:47.640And in the case of, again, I make the comparison with Donald Tusk, the current prime minister of Poland, where they've allowed Donald Tusk an opt out of their migration pact, which is basically a kind of a system where they reallocate refugees from across from across the union.0.62
00:20:02.140And so they allowed this to Donald Tusk because he was one of them. But this was a concession that they gave. This was something that was, as it were, a reward for the good behaviour. Poland, in effect, had given up its ability to choose on this fundamental question of, for example, how many asylum seekers or refugees you might have to take.0.63
00:20:19.000And the same thing is in the often here. Peter Maggiore talks tough on migration, but fundamentally sovereignty is the ability to choose. It's not a sovereign migration policy that you have if it's one that comes with a kind of natural veto from Brussels. So even if Brussels accede to this and allow a strict migration policy, you've still given up that sovereign right to choose, which is really the lifeblood of national sovereignty.
00:20:39.380i'm sure it is just to go back because you mentioned this twice now i want to underline this
00:20:46.180the you i think you called it a playbook right you you refer to the absolute sort of
00:20:52.260parallel between what happened in poland uh and what's just happened in hungary and you know
00:20:58.260the announcement that blocked funds will soon be flowing um didn't take place after weeks or
00:21:05.700or months of negotiations. This was within hours.
00:21:10.600So it's absolutely clear that they're standing by, as it were, waiting for this.
00:21:15.820On the subject of Donald Tusk, let's just remind folks that, correct me if I'm wrong,
00:21:21.660but he was, when he said he was one of them, indicating that he was a leading figure in the European Union,
00:21:29.240He was precisely the president of the European Council, right, which is the very body we're talking about now that's going to gain out of this power grab.
00:21:40.160The European Council, by the way, folks, is the collection of the heads of government of the 27 member states.
00:21:47.640And it also comprises, like thematically, you have all the defence ministers that will gather at these meetings or what have you, or the foreign ministers will gather at these meetings.
00:21:58.320That's the vehicle. So Donald Tusk, the Prime Minister of Poland, is very much a European Union guy. And, you know, what you were saying, Jacob, about sort of trying to get the reforms in, the European Union, trying to get these reforms in so that in a future point, it doesn't matter even if the country changes its mind at an election.
00:22:23.380The EU's policymaking infrastructure and diktats will be so well ingrained within the system that it will be pretty much impossible for people to choose its own destiny whilst remaining a member of the European Union.
00:22:41.280That's pretty much the situation that the UK found itself in.
00:22:44.540On that point, you come out of something which I loved, and that you said that you quoted Margaret Thatcher as saying that her greatest achievement was Tony Blair.
00:22:57.360What did she mean by that, and why are you citing it in the present context?
00:23:04.020Yeah, well, so Margaret Thatcher, when asked about this, Tony Blair, I'm sure your viewers will know and remember.
00:23:10.220But the key point was that Tony Blair was nominally a Labour prime minister, but in effect had accepted all of the fundamental elements of Margaret Thatcher's political program, elements that maybe some of your viewers might actually agree with, although probably not her aversion to economic nationalism.
00:23:25.860But the fundamentalists, she made this enormous change, broke the power of the trade unions in the UK, resolved the decision about a market economy, as it were, once and for all in Britain.
00:23:36.400And Tony Blair, despite wanting a little bit more welfare spending, a bit more redistribution here and there, didn't challenge any of those fundamentals and didn't challenge and indeed strengthen the kind of managerialist, technocratic approach to government, which arguably Margaret Thatcher pioneered.
00:23:51.680So that's why she misses his achievement. And in some ways you could say, I mean, at least lots of people are saying that that's somewhat true of Peter Magyar, the guy who's replacing Viktor Orban, because again, Orban's intellectual legacy of strong borders, strong cultural attachment to Hungary, the kind of rejection of, as it were, woke ideology, all of these things are not yet officially challenged by Peter Magyar.
00:24:13.520So Orbán's kind of intellectual victory is to some degree kind of secure.
00:24:19.140But that's why it's so important to realize that politics is not just about particular policies, which might change from week to week or month to month or year to year, but it's also about the question of sovereignty.
00:24:29.100Because whilst Peter Magyar, even, I mean, I have my suspicions, but he might not even be the man to fundamentally challenge some of these policies, even if the EU manages to sneak in through the back door.
00:24:38.900But in giving up Hungary's right to choose into the future by accepting all of these European Union institutions and kind of technocratic approaches to the government, which he's going to accept, over a period of time, he will give up the Hungarian kind of right to choose and be different on these questions.
00:24:54.700So that's why I make the point that populism really is nothing without sovereignty.
00:24:58.120it look so in the final sort of 45 seconds do me the great favor of just quickly going through the
00:25:05.720the the main issues that are going to be of interest to the war room audience the lgbt
00:25:10.920agenda ukraine immigration the relationship with russia um what on those four issues would you
00:25:19.480expect broadly perhaps the rhetoric might change but broad continuity and where do you think uh
00:25:26.600there will be significant change well i imagine in the short term on migration on the war with
00:25:32.080the ukraine for example lots of things won't change but the one place i'd be especially on
00:25:36.760the lookout for is over the question of work ideology especially in education we know that
00:25:41.540the european union likes to begin there it likes to as it were indoctrinate people while they're
00:25:45.380young and i suspect that the first kind of sliding that we'll see from peter bangia will be over
00:25:49.840areas of education policy where i suspect that you'll begin to see some of the more kind of
00:25:54.680progressive ideology begin to seep into hungarian schools jacob reynolds very very grateful for you
00:26:02.200coming on the show today where do people go on social media to keep up with your output your
00:26:08.220analysis your provocations and also to learn a bit more about the mcc yeah so we're on youtube
00:26:15.760you can search mcc brussels to find us we've got a podcast that we release every week so you can
00:26:20.500follow that on x we're quite active as well so look for at mcc underscore brussels and then i am
00:26:26.840at jacob reynolds uh just jacob reynolds at jacob reynolds on x as well so you can find us there
00:26:31.740but i do recommend our youtube podcast to your viewers i think they'll get a lot out of it
00:26:35.120and that's where they can go to get your article on brussels signal as well jacob reynolds very
00:26:40.660very grateful uh once again thanks for coming on and come back uh and give us an update on how
00:26:46.820Peter Magyar is settling in as the new Hungarian prime minister.
00:37:26.160um which is heroic i think you know and by the way i i think that's most admirable about what
00:37:32.960you guys are doing it's just like ordinary guys taking the initiative to do something to save
00:37:38.900their country because they know that the the british government won't do it so the invasion
00:37:43.380is taking place and undoubtedly undoubtedly there are many people coming in who do hate the uk and
00:37:49.280everything that is dance for and they're coming as invaders not everybody but a huge number um
00:37:55.400But that is a separate category of what I loathe, because what I loathe more than that, what is higher than that on my ontological hierarchy of despising is the fact that there are people like Keir Starman.
00:38:13.400And we'll talk about it just in a few moments in the second half of this, of our chat tonight about the Oxfordshire, the lead of the Oxfordshire County Council.
00:38:25.800And what I find objectionable about these people is that they are, they have the hatred of the United Kingdom and everything that it stands for, right?
00:38:35.840Let me repeat this. White middle class people have a greater hatred of what the country stands for than the third world invaders coming in. And these people, our globalist elites, our sociopathic overlords, are using the fact that there are people from different cultures and backgrounds in the UK to promote their own agenda and suppress everything that is great about the UK.
00:39:02.140is that a fair reading to you ryan or have i got that wrong no i would say you've got that that
00:39:08.280spot on i mean we've got continents like africa where people are circumnavigating their way
00:39:13.620through africa from third world where their education isn't as good as it is in the uk and
00:39:18.540in europe they're getting into europe they're coming from places like pakistan afghanistan0.99
00:39:23.300circumnavigating their way south into syria they're coming into turkey if you go to places0.79
00:39:29.440like Italy now. Italy's gone. You've got Germany. It's gone. They had over a million in last year,
00:39:35.5001.1 million. I went to Paris and investigated in Paris before I got banned from France,
00:39:42.100because I'm also banned from going to France for reporting on this. And when I was in Paris,
00:39:47.440Paris is completely gone, completely gone. And these people are monitoring their way through
00:39:54.480um europe and they're being instructed to get through by the likes of care for calais hope
00:40:00.640not hate utopia 56 and these are big companies that are pretending to be they're left-wing0.73
00:40:08.540ngos we call them not non-government organizations and these ngos are getting these guys to calais
00:40:14.040and it's literally when you get to calais and dunkirk that's the way it's 11 miles over the0.94
00:40:19.660border and these people are risking their lives getting on these dinghies um and coming across
00:40:25.200to the uk and we are guiding them in um literally like a taxi service on a daily basis um and we
00:40:32.880have border force we have 11 boats on border force we have some mcs boats which collect all
00:40:38.000the engines and i i reported on it the other week um in ramsgate a port in our in our country because
00:40:44.760I can't leave our country at the moment because of this ban going into northern France.
00:40:49.640And when I was there, there was 11 engines and 11 boats on there.
00:40:52.900And it just, it made me sick to my stomach to think that that's a potential of 1,100 people that are on our shores.
00:41:01.540And these people are coming because of the fruits of our government and what we are giving them.
00:43:28.500You, however, are banned from the whole of the county
00:43:33.620of oxfordshire right so this really it really shows it really illustrates the priorities right
00:43:41.900of the british government this right it shows you what their price is they have the instruments of
00:43:46.840law they won't use them to protect british citizens they'll protect they'll use them to
00:43:52.140harass british citizens and also on youtube you can see uh the the the police coming in and
00:43:57.880harassing you at your place of work they'll use these instruments not to stop the invasion
00:44:02.900but against british citizens who are speaking out against the invasion ryan hold on i'm just
00:44:08.080going to do a quick ad read and then i'll come back in just a moment for your for your reaction
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00:46:01.000This is completely correct. In the UK today, if you go to northern France and you've come from a third world country or you've come from Afghanistan, Iraq, Kurdistan, Syria, Iranians, Eritrea, Somalia, Sudan, I could keep going on.0.62
00:46:18.380It's on and on and on. You can see these people on the boat. These aren't women and children. These are men of fighting age.
00:46:24.320We are being invaded daily basis, yet I go out there and exploit this and take videos like the one your viewers can see on the screen now.
00:46:33.560And when I show that these are coming over the 12-mile line, which, bear in mind, it's 23 miles to get over from France to UK, so it's not far at all.
00:46:42.740Now, at the 100 metres away from where this boat is now, there is a French rescue boat, which will tug them to the halfway line,