2024： Trans Pendulum in Retrograde (The Study, The Leaks, & The Cass Report)
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Summary
In this episode, Caitlin and Simone discuss the new data from the Canadian Sexuality Research Collaborative and the controversial Cass report on gender non-contentedness in early adolescence and early adulthood. They discuss what it means and why it's important to know more about it.
Transcript
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Hello, Simone! It is exciting to be here with you today.
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You and I have done a number of episodes around trans issues before
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and trying to get to what is most likely the truth about this stuff
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It is very hard to get accurate readings of what's going on one way or the other.
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If you're the type of person who's really into sexuality research, which we are,
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While I consider those episodes pretty comprehensive in terms of our views of the issue,
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there have been three really big events that have happened since the recording of those episodes
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and each of which are really worth diving into and we'll use that episode to do this.
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The three events that I am speaking, of course, are about the CAS report.
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For people who don't know what this is, this is a report that did a review
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and it's like now the gold standard that the UK is using to determine how they relate
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to trans treatment, particularly in individuals under the age of 18.
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And it came out pretty critical of a lot of the stuff going out on the field right now.
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Another was a big study on longitudinally on trans individuals
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and the trans community was pretty unhappy with the findings that it had.
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With the biggest, from my perspective, being that of gender-conforming youth,
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over 90% end up being totally okay with their gender when they're adults.
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This is obviously a very important thing to know when you're looking at things like affirming gender care.
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And then the final one was a leak of one of the major trans organizations
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that sets a lot of the policy positions for Canada and the United States.
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And the leak, a lot of people who are really anti-trans or I'd say overly trans-skeptical
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And I think that there's actually a more nuanced perspective on some of these emails
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So I want to go over every one of these in turn with you and with our audience
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to try to find out what's really going on here.
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So the first thing I wanted to do was to go into the study,
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The Cass Report is more just like a political thing that's happening.
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And it's called Development of Gender Non-Contentedness During Adolescence and Early Adulthood.
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We found that gender non-contentedness is most common around the age of 11
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Moreover, we identified three different developmental trajectory types of gender non-contentedness
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consistently indicated to never experience any gender non-contentedness.
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So 78% of people at around the age of 11 just are totally okay with their gender.
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Two, a group reporting gender non-contentedness in early adolescence,
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So this is a population that starts feeling very non-contented with their gender
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and then gets over it as they get older or no longer has these feelings.
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And we'll go into this group in a bit more detail in a second.
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showing the opposite pattern of increasingly reporting gendered non-contentedness with age.
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We found that female sex and participating in the clinical rather than the population cohort
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was associated with increasing gendered non-contentedness.
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So this is actually really important, what they said there,
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being in the clinical, not the population cohort.
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So what that means is when this study was conducted,
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a portion of the participants that they were using were from the general population.
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A portion of the population they were using was from clinical transitioning groups.
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So what they're saying here is that this percentage,
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and just in case you haven't done the numbers in your head,
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this means that of the people who at the age of 11 feel gendered non-contentedness,
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It's actually mentioned in the studies that of this percent of the cohort,
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not a single one of them felt gendered non-contentedness by the time they hit their 20s.
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And this harkens back to the research that you had done when writing
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the pragmatist's guide to sexuality, that sort of showed that a lot of people
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either weren't super married to their birth sex, or otherwise just not like...
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We're okay with playing around with different genders.
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Now, what gets really interesting here is because this comes from the clinical cohort,
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it means that actually in the gender, the general population more broadly,
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these numbers are probably even lower of this group where this feeling increases over time,
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which means that it's probably low, like the number of people who have gendered non-contentedness
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when they're around 11 that end up not having it when they're adults,
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this part of the cohort is likely much, much larger than 90%.
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I might go as far as to say 98%, given what the data is showing here,
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which is obviously a really devastating point for trans individuals.
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So a lot of them have been attacking this study pretty vociferously.
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But there's also individuals in the trans community who see the study and are quite excited about it
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because they're like, it does show that you have this 2% where the problem gets bigger over time.
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So I'm going to keep reading some more because the key question then for the trans community
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is how do you distinguish between these two groups?
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Yeah. How do you tell when it's like real trans versus transient trans?
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Yeah. Transient gendered non-contentedness that has to do with puberty,
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which I've said in previous videos is a common part of childhood as being non-content with your gender
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or the changes that are happening with your body over puberty.
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And so what this study now does is it changes the entire playing field of transness
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because we're also going to go over it in the context of previous studies
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because it really is the best of the long-term studies in this space.
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And it shows very exactly that if a young adolescent comes to you and says they do not feel content with their gender,
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odds are hugely on the side that they're not going to feel like this as they get older
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and therefore affirming these feelings is a bad idea.
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Yeah. Yeah. Especially affirming them in any way that is biologically irreversible.
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If, for example, they decide that their pronouns are going to be whatever, then okay.
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But what it means is that right now the standard of care, trans-affirming care, takes it as a given.
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Like a medical prognosis, or not prognosis, a medical mandate.
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Yes. If a child comes to you saying this, use a mandate to affirm them.
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And now we are seeing that is probably not the best course of action,
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which changes what would be the recommended standard of care in youths who are gender non-conforming.
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Well, just to highlight, one of the things that makes this really meaningful is that before this came out,
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because the research is so bad, and one of the big themes of the cast report is the research is just so bad,
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it's not like there's a ton of information showing it's damaging,
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but there's also not any information that says it's really useful.
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Hold on. We'll get to the cast report when we get to the cast report,
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because if somebody who has only heard the trans side of the cast report argument,
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they will hear, oh, they threw out X kind of research, which actually isn't bad.
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And there's a lot of misinformation going on around the cast report.
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So we need to wait till we get to that. We're going to focus on this study first, okay?
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Because I do want to go down a big rabbit hole on good versus bad studies
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and what studies have actually been done and haven't been done,
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but that's more related to the cast report than this stuff.
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So to keep going, in addition, individuals with increasing or decreasing gender non-continues,
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trajectories had lower global self-worth, more behavioral and emotional problems,
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and more often had homosexual or bisexual orientation compared to individuals
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without gender non-contentedness. And so right here, I'm talking about the cohort
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that ended up getting more of these feelings over time.
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An increasing gender non-contentedness trajectory was significantly associated with a clinical cohort,
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a homosexual or bisexual orientation, the self-concept subscale global self-worth,
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and female sex, but not the self-concept subscale physical appearance.
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Now, this is just so fascinating. I'm going to unpack what this means.
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We're seeing a few things here, right? One is that if you are a male assigned at birth
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and you feel non-content with your gender in your youth, you are actually very unlikely to be in
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this cohort where those feelings get worse over time.
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If you do nothing, if you do not engage with the communities that are extra affirming of this,
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it desists. So that's one thing that this is saying, which goes against what a lot of people
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would intuit. Two, and this is what I think, why is it that the people with the gay and bisexual
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orientations are more likely to have this increase over time?
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I think it's because they are more likely to be in communities that affirm these feelings
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than individuals without this. And so the feelings are more likely to get snowballed or sound echoed.
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I think it's very similar to when you put a microphone too close to the speakers and then
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you end up getting that screeching sound and you can get that within these communities.
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Well, and the fact that you can gain status in those communities by showing how extreme you are
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and a more extreme form of being in those communities is often turning trans.
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So that's why I think, and then especially if you have low global self-worth, you are more likely to.
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Oh, because you feel like you need to appreciate your value in those communities. Yeah.
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And the self-affirmment that those communities are giving you for leaning into this,
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Oh yeah. So yeah, the affirmation you get, if you do lean into being trans,
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if you're feeling really insecure, that's going to feel all the much better.
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Yeah. Now let's argue this from the other perspective. This is me arguing from a more
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critical perspective. What an individual could say is that if an individual is in these communities
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that are more accepting of trans identities, i.e. they're gay and bisexual anyway, they are more
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likely to transition and it's less of a jump because they're already presenting a non-normal
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sexuality. So why not also go in this additional direction as well? With the global self-worth,
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they'd say if you live in a transphobic society, wouldn't you have lower global self-worth if you fell
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into one of these groups? But here is why I do not think that's a strong argument, the global self-worth
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argument. Because individuals who felt equal amounts of gender discontentedness, but had higher
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global self-worth as a use, so clearly they were okay with showing that they felt this, ended up
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desisting in those feelings over time. So that doesn't explain to me, like the lower global self-worth
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is clearly not a result or downstream of these feelings. It is what guides how these feelings,
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whether these feelings end up persisting or not persisting in the individual, which is really
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interesting. Now one of the most interesting things is the final thing where you're like, I don't know
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what that means. The physical appearance scale. So what this is showing is contrary to what a lot of
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people think, how attractive you are and how comfortable you are with how you look has no
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correlation with whether you're in this true trans group, the group that, where the gender
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discontentedness gets worse. Golly, wait, so the researchers are like grading the, he's a seven,
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he's a four. Well, yeah, and self-conceptual subscale. So it's how they judge their own attractiveness.
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But this is important, right? Because we've had, we've talked a lot with groups like the
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Transmaxers. Transmaxers, which is a group of like incel males who are transitioning.
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Yeah. And you can be a three as a male and like a seven as a female, depending on
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the way that you may be unattractive as a male. If you look to effeminate or skinny or whatever,
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like suddenly you're a gorgeous woman. Yeah. And there's this stereotype of becoming trans
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is failing at your own gender. And so you go with the other one. That's just not true in the data
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right now. What we're seeing that does not appear to be correlated with this group. So that's really
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important. Now, one thing I wanted to know, cause I had mentioned this, but I want to read the quote
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from the study here. The second largest group that was identified 19% had a decreasing trajectory of
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gender non-contentedness at the sixth assessment wave around the age of 25. None of these individuals
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reported experiencing gender non-contentedness anymore. Wow. All right.
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So it's not like a iffy thing. It just goes away. Interesting. Now here I'm going to read a chunk
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because this goes into the lack, because I think people are generally pretty surprised by the lack
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of longitudinal studies done in this space. And this is something we could go way deeper on
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with another episode potentially, but people may be like, wait, why haven't a lot of good long-term
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studies been done of trans individuals? And the core answer is because the data banks for in the
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social communities for trans individuals really push against them participating in studies and the,
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and they push against releasing data. Now, if you want to take it from a kind perspective,
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you could say they're afraid of scrutiny or scrutiny. I guess the data being used to what data will say.
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And they're afraid of the studies being run, which is damning, which is really damning,
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but I will go over what studies had been run in the past from the abstract of this. Sorry,
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not from the abstract, from the intro to the paper. Furthermore, the few longitudinal studies
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that have been conducted in a clinical setting found low persistent rates of early childhood gender
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dysphoric feelings into adolescence and adulthood. And then it lists a few studies here. It was found
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that children who socially transitioned in early childhood were more likely to have persisting
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feelings of dysphoria. A non-clinical sample of 317 children mean the age of eight years who
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identified as transgender, but who were not assessed according to the DSM-5 criteria for dysphoria.
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94% still had binary transgender identity and 4% had non-binary identity at a five-year follow-up
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assessment at 13 years of age. In this sample, it was also suggested that gender transition before
00:14:41.680
puberty is associated with continuing transgender identity. However, with only one follow-up
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assessment until the age of 13, the further gender identity development into mid and late
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adolescence remains unknown. So what they're showing here is like the big studies in this space that
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have been done recently either showed that most of these feelings desisted or stopped at a very young
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age at the age of 13, which this study would have shown a large level that you would still have
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these feelings. So the lines is what this study found. And from another study here, they're saying,
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or only contained one follow-up. In the Taiwanese sample, 87% never reported any dissatisfaction.
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8% reported dissatisfaction at the age of 13, but not at the age of 21. 5% at 22 and not at 13.
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And 1% reported persistent dissatisfaction. So this is a different sample. This is Pottery Barnet
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called 2021. And this was in the Taiwanese data set. And what this study showed, again,
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is that feelings of gender dissatisfaction are actually very transient between the ages of 13 and
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22. Well, which really matches with our general thesis around adolescence being a period of body
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dysmorphia in general, which makes sense because your hormones are going out of control and your body's
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changing a lot. And it's super gross. Yeah. Yeah. No, it does make perfect sense. And it's
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just worth noting that this is being repeatedly found across studies. Yeah. When people bothered
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to do longitudinal research. Yeah. That's not just, and I would note if you heard from the earlier
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study, actually, I'm not going to go over that. I'll just do that. Okay. So to go further in clinical
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samples, it was found that gender dysphoria is associated with homosexual orientation also,
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and this is from a different study, not theirs. So this is again showing that if you hang out in
00:16:30.300
gay population clusters, you are more likely to experience gender dysphoria. Also in population
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based samples, associations between gender typical behavior in children and sexual orientation are
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found. For example, in one population based study, children with gender nonconformity regarding play
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behavior at ages three to five were more likely to report a bisexual or gay orientation later in life.
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That's from... Oh, this sort of ties into what we always talk about with the TIDE studies, right?
00:16:56.140
Yes. This indicates that this could be downstream of... Okay. I just need to... Simone is referring
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to studies that look at endocrine disruptors that are present in utero when male fetuses are
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developing. It's been shown that it is correlated with more female-like than male-like play behavior
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at a seven-year follow-up study. And so this would correlate to then say, if you're looking at this
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play behavior as a correlatory thing here, and then you look at another study that looked at like
00:17:19.380
basically three to five-year-olds to then see if they became gay growing up, it suggests that even at a
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biological level, we should see far more gay individuals in the general population than used
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to exist before these endocrine disruptors came into companies. Became pervasive. Yeah.
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Yeah. So very interesting to me. I find this study to be... It's absolutely game-changing for me because
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before all I had to go on was my assumptions around this, right? Like... Yeah. And your intuitions and also
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we'll say related research that we've seen, such as the TIDE studies, such as people's responses to
00:17:57.460
surveys about arousal pathways and sexuality, et cetera. And unfortunately, what this stuff indicates
00:18:03.460
to me is that just this first study in isolation, right? Is that you pretty much are better off
00:18:10.240
always delaying gender-affirming care until after the age of 18. Actually, preferably from the data
00:18:16.420
after the age of 22 or 25. Yeah. And an individual can say, but then it's harder for an individual to
00:18:22.080
really fully transition, right? But then I would say, yeah, except it's easier for women to really
00:18:28.680
fully transition to men. That's more a problem with male to female transition, which it turns out is a
00:18:33.940
category where the desire to transition desist if it is not affirmed. Yeah. It's... The population that would
00:18:42.000
have the most inclination to do this is a population that should most be dissuaded from doing it. Yeah. Yeah.
00:18:48.520
In addition to that, you've got the problem of what is the thing that really distinguishes these two
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populations? It is an increased desire over time in a desire to transition between the age of the 13 to 25.
00:19:03.240
And I think that is perfectly reasonable. Basically, it says that for the individuals who actually are
00:19:09.180
trans, they do end up figuring this out eventually. And that seems to be the safest way to sort them
00:19:15.220
within the population. Yeah. And I think what we tell our kids too, and what I really expect to have
00:19:21.580
happen, is that treatment for transitioning is going to improve over time. This is all pretty new stuff.
00:19:28.560
And I think a lot of what's going on, for example, the dysphoria continues or could possibly worsen when
00:19:35.360
people actually do go on treatment. I think a lot of that comes down to the fact that honing in
00:19:39.760
on the right levels of hormones and everything, getting everything right, is really difficult.
00:19:46.720
Yeah. I mean, consider that we're on the edge of having like plasmid gene therapy, for example.
00:19:51.180
Exactly. Yeah. So like in the future, it might not even matter if you're trying to transition after
00:19:56.800
age 25, because through the help of AI and many other medical advancements, you'll be able to
00:20:03.180
handle it really well. It might actually be better to delay. And I think that will be one of the core
00:20:09.040
areas of complaint that many of these individuals are going to have, is there will be like the first
00:20:13.180
generation of people who get cybernetic implants. And then a few years later, the implants are
00:20:17.660
dramatically better. And the first generation was like, why did I get stuck with Gen 1 tech?
00:20:21.940
So that's, I think, another really important thing that you're pointing out there.
00:20:25.420
But let's go into the CAS report really quickly. So I'm going to read some notes on this because it
00:20:29.400
is absolutely critical. This report, while it is not really new information, it's almost a meta study
00:20:35.360
of what's been going on, is critical because it is completely changing the general narrative
00:20:41.420
around the way governments deal with trans individuals.
00:20:45.260
I would say doctors, like general practitioners, like just doctors and therapists in general.
00:20:50.380
Yeah. This study has been accepted among a lot of people in the mainstream left, not among the
00:20:56.220
extreme cultists, but in the mainstream left, this is seen as the voice of the authority. And so we're
00:21:01.180
going to go over both the study and the complaints about the study and the counters to those complaints.
00:21:06.080
Okay. So Dr. Hilary Cass, the pediatrician commissioned to conduct a review by the NHS
00:21:12.500
to children and young people questioning their gender identity, said that while doctors tended to
00:21:16.900
be cautious in implementing new findings in emerging areas of medicine, quote, quite the reverse happened
00:21:22.800
in the field of gender care for children, end quote. They studied a total of 23 guidelines published
00:21:27.720
by different countries between 1998 and 2022. All but two were published after 2010. Quote,
00:21:33.880
health care services and professionals should take into account the poor quality and interrelated
00:21:39.220
nature of the published guidance to support the management of children and adolescents experiencing
00:21:44.220
gender dysphoria and incongruence. In one study, she said a single Dutch medical study,
00:21:49.840
quote, suggested puberty blockers may improve psychological well-being for a narrowly defined
00:21:54.660
group of children with gender incongruence, end quote, has formed the basis for their use to,
00:22:00.060
quote, spread at pace to other countries, end quote. Subsequently, there was a, quote,
00:22:05.740
greater readiness to start masculinizing slash feminizing hormones in mid-teens, end quote.
00:22:12.500
She added, quote, some practitioners abandoned normal clinical approaches, holistic assessment,
00:22:18.460
which has meant that this group of young people have been extra-petitionalized compared to other
00:22:24.140
young people with similar complex presentations. They deserve much better, end quote.
00:22:28.620
So here, what I want to pull out is a few things that she said here, which are really important.
00:22:33.860
One is that she's noting that most of the government guidelines that they're using for
00:22:37.520
transition and gender nonconformity in minors are really just based on other government reports
00:22:44.340
on the same thing. It's a bunch of studies pointing at each other without a lot of primary
00:22:49.760
evidence. And we're going to get to this claim because this is the thing that a lot of trans activists
00:22:55.000
will have a complaint about is the not a lot of primary evidence. So just to keep going here,
00:23:00.720
most of them lacked, quote, an independent and evidence-based approach and information about
00:23:05.780
how recommendations were developed, end quote, the researcher said. Few guidelines were informed by
00:23:11.020
a systemic review of empirical evidence, and they lacked transparency about how their recommendations
00:23:16.700
were developed. Only two reported consulting directly with children and young people during
00:23:20.940
their development, the York academics found. Data from the gender clinics reported in the CAST review
00:23:26.320
showed that the vast majority of people who started puberty suppression went on to have
00:23:31.140
masculinizing or feminizing hormones, suggesting that puberty blockers did not buy people time to
00:23:35.840
think. Now, this is actually really important because this is seen in a lot of data. The moment you start
00:23:40.000
puberty blockers or really any form of gender-affirming care, you're basically in the pipeline
00:23:45.720
and almost nobody leaves the pipeline, which is why this other study is really important because
00:23:50.540
it's looking at people who don't fall into the pipeline. And a lot of the studies that were done
00:23:55.000
on quote-unquote trans individuals in the clinical population only looked at people who had pre-gone
00:24:00.040
into the pipeline. And that's why it was so important for her to find control groups in blind studies,
00:24:05.700
which was her core complaint of a lot of these studies. And we know from other studies, once you're in
00:24:09.840
the pipeline, you're in the pipeline, there's really no getting out of it. Yeah. Which makes sense if
00:24:14.360
your entire social community at that point affirms this decision. And if you detransition,
00:24:19.640
and we're going to see this from the leaked emails, you get completely ostracized from your entire
00:24:24.740
community. It's like, you know, converting out of being a Jehovah's Witness or an Amish or something
00:24:31.380
like that. It is incredibly difficult to do. And it is incredibly difficult to stop from a social
00:24:37.900
perspective if you're in these systems. And for the individuals who are like, can't you understand that
00:24:42.900
they feel threatened by the narrative around detransition? And you're the very people who
00:24:46.740
criticize people like Jehovah's Witnesses for the way they ostracize people who form new beliefs and
00:24:51.500
systems. Like, how can you not see how hurtful what you're doing is and why it makes people afraid
00:24:57.160
to leave the pipeline and why it creates these psychological cycles where it becomes very difficult
00:25:02.960
to leave the pipeline? Okay. But now let's keep going. I want to then talk about debunking the
00:25:08.620
cast report, right? Because I went through a lot of people who were talking about debunking this
00:25:13.680
and it is very interesting and worth digging into. Here's from a Reddit post. Now, here are the four
00:25:21.880
points that they had found for debunking if they're just arguing against it. Point one, the report engaged
00:25:27.900
with anti-trans hate groups and was written by someone affiliated with them. Does anyone have a source
00:25:33.060
for this? Question mark. Basically, the sources for this are, here, I'll give it to you. Cass follows
00:25:38.900
the LGB alliance and transgender trend, both recognized as anti-trans groups. She doesn't
00:25:45.000
follow any pro-trans groups. That is the full extent of that. So yeah, basically, hate group is
00:25:50.020
anyone who's, oh, let's be careful about this. Hate. Yeah. Yeah. And that's because as in the same way
00:25:56.040
that like if you're in Scientology, anyone who even questions Scientology, what are they called again?
00:26:00.280
What's the word for them? Subversive persons is the term. I think it sounds surprisingly corporate.
00:26:05.440
Yeah. Yeah. You're not allowed to. Like problematic individuals. Hold on. You're not allowed to in any
00:26:10.240
way. And this makes sense if this is more like a religion than like an actual, and it is that as
00:26:16.380
we've argued in our episode, has a cult evolved under the trans movement? And I think that one kind
00:26:20.920
of has. So the second one here is puberty blockers are seen as perfectly safe for cis children who have
00:26:26.680
precocious puberty. So they shouldn't be any different for trans children. This is just
00:26:30.880
comical. Cis children who are using them to delay precocious puberty are undergoing puberty at a time
00:26:36.300
when they shouldn't be undergoing puberty. Trans children are undergoing puberty when they shouldn't
00:26:41.360
be undergoing puberty. Basically, cis children are using this so that their puberty happens as it
00:26:45.340
normally happens. Trans individuals are using this to attempt to turn off puberty and then attempt to
00:26:49.900
restart it later, which we know just doesn't work. You do not get your full puberty if you would try to
00:26:56.520
start it later. That's what a lot of, when I like go over the data, that's what it seems to indicate.
00:27:00.940
So this is a really bad point, which I think is great that we're seeing how bad the points against
00:27:05.700
this are, because to me, when I want to know, should I take something seriously? I should look
00:27:09.920
at the people who are arguing against it and see how strong their arguments are. The third one is,
00:27:14.300
if any antidepressant was successful at improving mental health slash suicidality as blockers slash
00:27:19.800
HTRR for trans people, it would be considered a miracle drug. Again, does anyone have any numbers to back this up?
00:27:31.180
There's positions they want to be true and then they look for numbers, right? The final point is,
00:27:36.360
wait times for accessing this healthcare are so high that there have been several people dying of
00:27:40.840
suicide before they reach the end of the waiting list. And there is currently functionally almost
00:27:45.000
no NHS care for trans people who need to access it. And this is just one of those things where we
00:27:50.140
already know that the suicidality within this group is really high regardless, even after they get
00:27:54.780
gender affirming care. I'm not going to, I think it's really twisted to consider everyone in this
00:28:00.060
pipeline who ends up committing suicide as killed by the treatment. I would say that if we're going
00:28:05.700
to do that, then we should count as everyone who has transitioned and then commit suicide as being
00:28:10.040
killed by transition. It's not going to look good for the trans community.
00:28:15.100
Yeah. And here is the key argument that you see used against it, this report. And I'm going to quote
00:28:21.780
here. Some have focused on the report's omission of evidence, including studies around puberty
00:28:26.680
blockers that have not used control groups. People have argued that control groups in these studies
00:28:31.220
would be impossible because people would know if they'd been assigned a placebo or not a placebo.
00:28:36.320
Yeah. And here you see a lot of people complaining just over and over again, complaining about you
00:28:44.240
cannot block all the studies that didn't use blind control groups because you can't really use blind
00:28:49.180
control groups here. Now I am going to post on the page over the screen here so people can see
00:28:55.400
highlighted in the report, why she threw out these studies. Because you're being lied to if you believe
00:29:05.000
they were thrown out because they didn't have a blind control group. The specific line that was used
00:29:14.600
over and over again was lack of blinding and no control group. This is critical. These are two different
00:29:29.240
things. They both did not have blinding and did not have a control group. Now I want to be clear
00:29:37.640
because a lot of people, my background's in medical research, a lot of people here might not understand
00:29:41.780
how freaking horrific it is if you had no control group. Okay. You don't need to like assign people
00:29:51.240
placebo meds or something like that and blind them to put them in a control group. What you need to do,
00:29:55.940
for example, if I'm looking at rates of suicidality, what I would do is I would contrast people who
00:30:01.380
didn't like just totally normal members of the population with individuals who are undergoing
00:30:06.540
this kind of trans care, right? Like people undergoing this treatment and to the earlier
00:30:10.080
point, those who are stuck on the wait list. Yeah. And I can get to the wait list. Perfect control
00:30:15.020
group. Perfect control group stuck on the wait list. Very easy to do. They're not using this,
00:30:19.960
right? So the goal is to get the control group as close to the population that you're doing as
00:30:24.300
possible, but they don't have to be exactly like the population. They can be quite different
00:30:28.380
to have a no control group at all. You're basically not even trying for real data at that point. You
00:30:34.320
are just trying to affirm a position. And this is what really gets me is this lie that she was
00:30:41.920
discarding studies because they didn't have a blind control group. She was discarding studies
00:30:45.760
because they didn't have any control group at all, which is a basic thing in most medical research.
00:30:51.500
Okay. And this is, and people were like, with some cancer patients, you wouldn't have a control
00:30:58.240
group with like chemo or something like that. And it's like, yeah, but this isn't like that.
00:31:02.580
There are comparable groups that you wouldn't be using. Yeah. There are lotteries, there are wait
00:31:07.000
lists, there are, yeah, it's, there are those who can financially afford it and those who can't,
00:31:11.380
all sorts of things. What this says to me, like my big takeaway from this is because the
00:31:17.260
criticisms of the cast report were so weak. She engaged with naughty people so we cannot
00:31:22.300
like think about her as human anymore. And that is what cults do. If you talk to people
00:31:26.780
who are critical of the cult, they will say, we just can't trust anything you're saying anymore.
00:31:30.760
That is a just complete nonsense. This complaining about her throwing out studies that were poorly
00:31:35.860
conducted, again, just complete nonsense. And they'll be like, she included studies that didn't
00:31:40.540
use blind controls. And it's like, no, they still had controls. That was what the big mistake was.
00:31:47.600
You're including this blind word, which wasn't the critical word. So now we're going to go to one
00:31:54.140
final thing that you haven't really looked into yet. Actually, did you have any other things you
00:31:57.420
wanted to say from like, you went over the block and reported on this and everything?
00:32:00.980
I think the important thing is pointing out that this isn't because she's found any particular
00:32:06.960
outcome. It's a lot of it's just the research is so bad. While there isn't a lot of information
00:32:12.240
about it being very, oh, definitely you're going to die if you go through this, but also definitely
00:32:17.400
going through this isn't going to help you. I think the important thing is in the past and what may be
00:32:22.380
changing now and what gives me a lot of hope is if you are a therapist or you are a doctor and
00:32:27.660
someone sends you their child and their child appears to have some form of gender dysphoria,
00:32:31.920
the responsible thing for you to do and what you would do to avoid any like form of
00:32:38.260
liability is to just send them to a gender transition or a gender treatment clinic.
00:32:44.120
Just refer them to that. This is off my plate. There's no, I don't know what to do. The only
00:32:49.320
evidence out there that's being shouted from the hilltops is cherry picked studies saying your child
00:32:54.680
is going to die if you don't do this. So people from a sort of media standpoint and from a public
00:33:01.040
discourse standpoint, doctors and clinicians and therapists were forced to throw people into this
00:33:06.240
pipeline, which as you point out, then is a very slippery slope. You can't get out of it.
00:33:10.100
A Chinese finger trap. So now with the cast report, what makes me so hopeful is doctors, therapists,
00:33:16.400
et cetera, have something else to point to, to say, no, this is not necessarily the best pathway.
00:33:23.800
I'm not being necessarily responsible by telling you to sit this out, find some other interventions,
00:33:31.980
work on self-confidence, et cetera, which is really encouraging.
00:33:36.140
Yeah. And now we're going to get to the last study here, which I find really interesting. And I don't
00:33:40.400
think that you had heard about this. There's not a study. It's a major event. So there was a leak of
00:33:44.600
files from an organization called the World's Professional Association for Transgender Health,
00:33:48.960
W-P-A-A-T-H or WPATH, I guess is how I read it.
00:33:59.380
Yeah. When Blockton reported, because I love them, they talk about the WPATH files a lot. Yeah.
00:34:03.520
Oh, they do. Okay. This was really interesting. So this organization has, you know how I mentioned
00:34:08.540
that there was like an echo chamber that a lot of countries were using for their use,
00:34:13.720
Yeah. That people just kept referring to the same, like other studies and no one actually,
00:34:20.620
when making claims about this is the best way to go, everyone agrees that this is true,
00:34:24.400
was actually referring to real profoundly robust research.
00:34:29.540
Yeah. It was coming from this organization. And we began to, through these leaks, get an
00:34:34.860
understanding of how individuals within this organization really saw what they were doing.
00:34:38.980
And the biggest sort of thing that came out of the WPATH files was really two things. And we'll get
00:34:45.420
into some specific quotes around this, but the first being that they understood that many of the kids
00:34:54.120
could not make an informed consent to what they were doing.
00:34:58.820
What? Wow. What indicates that? That's pretty damning.
00:35:04.300
I think the thing you have to remember about kids is we're often explaining these sorts of
00:35:09.100
things to people who haven't had biology in high school yet. He says, discussing the potential of
00:35:14.220
loss of fertility and options to preserve fertility with a 14-year-old is, quote, always good in theory,
00:35:19.220
end quote, he said in the video, because many will go on to cross-sex hormones that will leave them
00:35:23.980
sterile. But, quote, I know I'm talking to a blank wall, end quote, he says, end quote. And the same would
00:35:30.960
happen for a cisgender kid, right? They'd be like, ew, kids, babies, gross, end quote.
00:35:35.500
Quote, we try to talk about it, but most of these kids are nowhere in any kind of a brain space,
00:35:41.460
really, to talk about it in a serious way, end quote. And he adds, quote, I, that's always bothered me,
00:35:48.560
but we still want the kids to be happy. Happier in the moment, right?
00:35:52.100
Happier in the moment. Happier for now. Damned in the future.
00:35:57.420
Why are you a doctor? This is like the Hayes movie, where it's like it makes them happier in
00:36:02.640
the moment to tell them that overeating isn't going to make them unhappy in the long term or
00:36:06.600
cause long-term negative bodily repercussions in the long term or be unhealthy. So you just don't
00:36:11.620
tell them that. That's why it's able to tell people that taking in far more calories than you
00:36:17.780
burn is unhealthy for you because it makes them happier in the moment to not tell them that.
00:36:22.280
And this is what we talk about when we talk about this virus or this form of engaging with this.
00:36:26.760
No, you're a doctor. And you are saying right now, I understand that children cannot make an
00:36:34.420
informed consent to the surgeries that we are allowing them to consent to, the treatments that
00:36:39.580
we are allowing them to consent to. And they will have major repercussions later in their life,
00:36:43.960
specifically sterility and never being able to orgasm again, or never being able to experience
00:36:50.000
an orgasm at all. They don't know what these things are. They can't understand these things.
00:36:55.220
And as we talk about within prenatalism, many people develop their identities when they're young.
00:36:59.300
So they don't understand that if they found kids gross when they were a teenager, that doesn't mean
00:37:03.520
they're going to find them gross as an adult. And it is natural for young teens around this age for
00:37:08.460
biological reasons to have an instant like gross young kids. I don't want to be around that.
00:37:13.040
Beyond that too, I think even if like, even if a young teen can comprehend that as an adult,
00:37:18.320
they're going to want something different, there is a rebellious streak in many. And I felt this
00:37:22.960
myself as a teen that would take away the ability of that person in the future to have that choice.
00:37:32.480
I hate the idea so much now that I'm going to make sure that my future self doesn't have the ability
00:37:37.780
to do it when they try to. Like someone who's trying to get rid of eating sweets decides that
00:37:42.820
they're going to make sure they never have sweets in their house in the future. So their future self
00:37:45.980
that wants sweets can't even get them. So I think even when they can comprehend, even when they know
00:37:51.120
the biological consequences, they, in their current state of mind may still choose intentionally
00:38:00.100
Yeah. And we know that kids have poor self-control. This is why we don't generally allow kids to sign
00:38:09.200
Yeah. They can't join the military. You can't sell organs.
00:38:12.920
It is wild. It is wild, but, but it gets worse than that. They are showing how little the kids
00:38:19.140
understand from some of these quotes that you have here. Right.
00:38:21.980
I guess what's wild to me is that they acknowledge that these things are damaging.
00:38:27.100
And this is where I'd say that I think the far, like the far anti-trans movement goes a little
00:38:31.080
far with this stuff and maybe reading a little too much into it, but I'm going to read another quote
00:38:34.500
here. All right. One clinician had written about a number of her patients, quote, they seem to feel
00:38:41.140
that they should be allowed to switch back and forth merely at their requests. I'm not comfortable with
00:38:45.780
this at this point. We need to be better at understanding how to handle this type of situation,
00:38:50.000
end quote. Now that an individual, they had started transitioning, thought that this was
00:38:55.260
something that you could just switch whenever you wanted to really easily. What that shows to me is
00:39:01.120
that this individual didn't understand what they were committing to or how permanent it was at all.
00:39:08.260
And this again shows why people don't think that young people should be allowed to consent to them.
00:39:12.800
Well, this is again, another reason why this is so important to put off as long as possible,
00:39:17.620
because in the future, I have plenty of confidence that people will be able to seamlessly switch
00:39:23.340
whenever they want to. Maybe not in our lifetime, but it'll happen, but not now.
00:39:28.180
And they show some really concerns about this. One clinician wrote, quote,
00:39:32.780
kids can't fully understand what they're agreeing to, end quote. Sorry. Kids can't understand what
00:39:37.880
they're agreeing to. We can never do this. And it's abuse to do it. Even when a parent or doctor are on
00:39:45.600
board, that it is the right thing for the child. Who is this? Anyway, I'll look at this later.
00:39:51.720
So here, I want to note something right here that is really interesting. But Bowers has also said
00:39:57.140
that acknowledging detransition exists, quote, even to a minor extent is considered off limits
00:40:02.340
for many in our community. I do see talk of the phenomenon as distracting from the major challenges
00:40:09.000
we face, end quote. There is a mission within the transitioning community and within the medical
00:40:13.880
community around this to just pretend that detransitioners don't exist. And this is another
00:40:18.180
big problem, right? Because this is a very big and growing movement that it seems like if somebody
00:40:23.320
was forming informed consent and they had been given both sides, they would know this. And this is a
00:40:29.360
big problem because when I look at transforms and they're attacking detransitioners, they're like,
00:40:34.620
look, didn't you read the back of the like pill bottle? Weren't you told about everything that
00:40:39.340
could go wrong? Like, why are you out there complaining now and complaining about our community now?
00:40:43.080
And the answer is because they were transitioned at 11 and they obviously didn't understand.
00:40:49.260
And doctors giving them the transition knew that they didn't understand. And it was well known among
00:40:54.800
the people who are writing the national guidelines, like in countries like Canada, that the people who
00:40:59.740
are transitioning didn't understand. So you don't get to come out here. You cannot both be pro the
00:41:04.120
transitioning of children and say that they shouldn't have the right to say, I didn't fully
00:41:09.020
understand this. Now, one of the particularly damaging things that came out was this was many
00:41:14.120
cases of people who ended up getting cancer because of this. Whoa, whoa, whoa, why didn't wait? What
00:41:19.260
correlates with cancer? Is it the estrogen justice or what? Yes, if male to female correlates with cancer,
00:41:26.680
which is actually really interesting because there was one study done recently that shows to
00:41:30.240
female to male might actually lower rates of cancer in individuals because you don't have the
00:41:34.800
mammary tissue anymore or the uterus sometimes. Two of them are common locations that females get
00:41:40.160
cancer. But I'm going to quote here. In one, a doctor writes about a 16-year-old patient who
00:41:45.480
developed two benign liver tumors after several years of taking birth control and one year of
00:41:50.380
gender-reforming testosterone. In another, a different doctor recalled a colleague who died of liver cancer
00:41:54.980
after nearly a decade of taking testosterone. That doctor wrote that, quote,
00:41:58.900
to the best of my knowledge, the cancer was linked to the hormone treatment, end quote.
00:42:03.760
The doctor was noted that they didn't have any other details because the patient had died.
00:42:09.380
That's so interesting that, yeah, this isn't discussed, whereas people going through IVF or
00:42:13.280
people concerned about IVF often bring up concerns about cancer because they're like, oh gosh, if I take
00:42:17.700
even for a freaking month extra estrogen, I'm going to get more cancer. And yet that like that. So I also,
00:42:24.040
I don't think it's poorly known that this is a risk because if people are concerned about one month.
00:42:31.800
Fringe risk and it is not a complete fringe risk. It's a known right effect of these drugs taken over
00:42:38.260
short periods of time. And that's the thing that you're pointing out here, which is really important
00:42:41.420
to note, is that individuals know they're like, oh, but this has been used in other treatments for a
00:42:47.280
long time. Yeah, but people worry about those other treatments. They worry about it in the other
00:42:52.120
treatments and the use of it is extremely limited in terms of time windows. And they're like, oh,
00:42:59.160
but like hormonal therapy has been used in birth control for a long time. And if those are different
00:43:04.560
hormones at different levels and then the ones that are causing cancer in these individuals,
00:43:09.920
so this doesn't matter. But I will also say that to an extent, these leaks have been blown out of
00:43:13.860
proportion. Really as bad as the leaks could have been, this is pretty minor to me. It was in how
00:43:19.600
extreme some of these communities get. And it does show that the doctors do actually have some level
00:43:24.660
of self-reflection and concern about what's happening and knowledge that kids can't really
00:43:29.160
consent. They just have fears around acknowledging that was in their community, which I think is
00:43:35.260
something that like anyone who is looking at this situation with any level of sanity already knew was
00:43:41.140
a phenomenon. Yeah. So between these three things, my question is now, what has this changed for you
00:43:50.280
in terms of your perspective of what's going on? And do you think that the battle is genuinely tipping
00:43:58.940
I think it, yeah, already things, programs for youth gender transition were being defunded, criticized,
00:44:09.260
shut down. I think youth gender clinics are going to be a thing of the past very soon. And my hope
00:44:18.180
is that this means that transitioning, like those who are trans activists and who do, to your earlier
00:44:24.020
point, really care about that 2% that really does have persistent gender dysphoria and that really
00:44:29.720
does need and want to transition, that it gets them to focus on instead identifying those people,
00:44:37.140
validating their concerns and preparing that, like giving them something to do in the interim while they
00:44:42.080
wait until they are old enough to make that transition safely, we'll say after age 25. I think that
00:44:48.960
would be such an amazing change. Oh yeah, it would be great. If you could get better studies on
00:44:53.660
that would be fantastic. And I think that the direction that the trans community and trans activists
00:44:59.080
should go from this. For me, the major thing that's shifted about this is one, it's a shift in the public
00:45:05.200
narrative. It is now, and J.K. Rowling with all her stuff, she recently like absolutely went after
00:45:10.360
someone. They're like, now that it's okay to say the things that I've risked my career saying for a long
00:45:14.280
time, that many individuals lost their career for saying, you now are jumping on the bandwagon with this.
00:45:18.960
When you didn't stand up for this, when you could actually really suffer for this. And the other
00:45:24.040
big thing was in trans news that's happened is this law in Scotland, right? This hate crime law
00:45:27.700
and J.K. Rowling standing up against it and setting precedent. In a way that nullified it. Yeah.
00:45:33.660
Yeah. And I think that she's right. We have to remember the things that we're saying now that are
00:45:39.420
actually like not that spicy anymore, that transitioning kids is probably not a good idea,
00:45:44.640
are things that individuals, even trans individuals have lost their careers for saying,
00:45:49.580
like Buck Angel, the original trans activist who really brought the community into the mainstream
00:45:54.760
and then was completely isolated from the community from saying that kids shouldn't be allowed to
00:45:59.300
transition. That was, or that we should have some skepticism around this. That was to me, really
00:46:04.700
heartbreaking to see how many people in the left, even when they change their mainstream position on
00:46:09.240
this. When they're like, oh, we were wrong about that whole transitioning kids thing. They will never
00:46:13.180
rehabilitate the people that they have excommunicated or that they have labeled as heretics.
00:46:20.520
They will never really put up the law, the wall of people we attacked for things we now accept as
00:46:27.000
I think it goes both ways. I don't think Buck Angel is going to embrace them after everything that
00:46:32.060
I think he's like a very understanding person. So I think that this is, it's tragic that that
00:46:37.800
has happened. But the other thing, the big thing for me that changes is I now believe that the
00:46:43.400
evidence states, and I think that if I was a trans activist and I was trying to help the trans
00:46:46.720
community, I think the core thing that needs to change now is the understanding that most teens
00:46:53.080
and preteens who are not comfortable with their gender are not trans. They're just going to grow out
00:46:59.540
of this. The vast majority of preteens who are not comfortable with their gender are not trans.
00:47:05.420
And so now the question is, how do you sort out of the people who aren't comfortable with their
00:47:09.480
gender, which should undergo further treatment and which shouldn't? Where the previous go-to thing
00:47:17.960
within the trans community is if you are not comfortable with your gender, you are trans and
00:47:23.080
you should be treated as trans and you should immediately put on a gender affirming pipeline.
00:47:26.680
You should immediately be put on puberty blockers to give you more time to think.
00:47:29.540
And what this research just shows is they don't give you more time to think. You're basically
00:47:32.460
locking in a decision. The moment you go into gender affirming care, you go to a psychologist
00:47:37.640
that is gender affirming, or you undergo puberty blockers.
00:47:41.600
And what I would take in a hot second is if there was just, if we nuked youth medicalization,
00:47:47.500
if it was, all right, we're going to change your pronouns and now you're going to dress differently
00:47:50.880
and you're going to have this different, fine. Because at least that enables people
00:47:55.540
to maintain optionality until they're fully myelinated, until they're in their twenties
00:48:00.700
and they can decide. If it's just, if it becomes the equivalent of going goth for a few years
00:48:05.660
and being different, I'm super happy with that.
00:48:09.800
Even when I was a kid, I wore like a girl pants and stuff like that in like the goth days
00:48:14.620
where you'd get these super tight, like hot puppet pants and stuff.
00:48:21.440
So I tied an onion to my belt, which was the style at the time.
00:48:25.600
You were like an extra rebellious young guy or whatever.
00:48:28.100
And it's one of those things where it's totally cool.
00:48:32.180
If my kids were like, okay, I'm going to do dresses now or something like that.
00:48:35.440
And that was like the rebellious style at the time.
00:48:37.380
I think we need to differentiate developing your identity in contrast to mainstream social
00:48:46.300
And these two things have unfortunately been conflated due to the trans movement, not allowing
00:48:52.100
you to say, hey, that teenager who is doing this rebellious thing in terms of their identity,
00:49:01.300
And we need to respect them while also telling them tattoos are bad.
00:49:05.880
You probably shouldn't be going out and doing that.
00:49:07.340
Even if it is a medical issue, I think the important thing that we've realized now is
00:49:11.000
that it's a medical issue that will pass for the majority of people.
00:49:16.200
And that really does really ought to be addressed for a very small minority of people.
00:49:20.020
And we cannot make a medical decision until someone's in their mid-20s.
00:49:30.640
You don't know how far the pendulum is going to swing in the other direction yet.
00:49:39.340
We could see a general pushback on transness in general.
00:49:45.900
Yeah, I can see, for example, if we're talking about an extremely hard pushback, and I can see
00:49:50.940
this being very realistic, laws being pushed in conservative states that disallow trans people
00:49:56.120
from teaching kids, because they've just basically found that if you don't lean into it at all,
00:50:04.120
Keep in mind, the other thing that I noted here is engagement with the LGBTQ community.
00:50:10.320
It could be correlated with this persisting of your gender dissatisfaction.
00:50:16.200
So disallowing a young person who seems at risk of this from engaging with other LGBT
00:50:21.840
individuals appears to be one of the best ways to prevent them from falling into this
00:50:26.820
Which can lead to a lot of negative action, even among well-meaning parents.
00:50:32.100
Or even among like perfectly normal, non-extreme, non-brainwashy people who just happen to be
00:50:42.060
Is it just dangerous, even if they are same-sex attracted, to allow them to engage with that
00:50:45.880
community so long as that community is overly friendly with the trans community?
00:50:50.800
I think every community has to be approached on a case-by-case basis.
00:50:55.260
And if you see that, I think the key, and this goes back to what you always talk about
00:50:59.960
with dominance hierarchies within a community, you have to look at what the virtue spiral
00:51:07.100
Every community that's tightly knit is going to have a virtue spiral.
00:51:10.520
You have to figure out what that virtue spiral is going to be.
00:51:13.840
Like, I guess in the pernadalist community, a virtue of spiral is probably someone going
00:51:17.440
crazy hard in on kids and telling everyone they should have kids and being really annoying
00:51:22.120
and obnoxious about it or whatever it might be.
00:51:25.200
But you have to be, you have to know what that is.
00:51:29.320
There's two, most communities are actually not that at risk of virtue spiraling.
00:51:34.300
The thing that's for virtue spiraling in a community is-
00:51:41.000
As soon as you have a protected class, some thing that you can attempt to maximize that
00:51:45.920
you cannot be attacked for attempting to maximize.
00:51:48.420
So for example, within conservative circles, this might be like dedication to Trump, right?
00:51:52.680
Within certain Trumpist circles, you cannot be criticized for being overly anti-immigration
00:52:00.480
And because of that, you get these virtue spirals where individuals will be like, you
00:52:04.900
guys aren't conservative at all in your beliefs.
00:52:06.680
And I'm like, I think you might just be in a community that's like virtue spiraling because
00:52:14.000
When you look at any mainstream statistics about population belief systems and stuff
00:52:18.140
like that, you have just surrounded yourself with a virtue spiral until you don't know
00:52:21.560
So you do get this in the right, but the, and within the left, if you can't attack trans
00:52:25.920
community, if you can't attack people who see psychologists, these are seen as protected
00:52:30.060
You're going to get virtue spirals there of dedication, of intenseness.
00:52:33.440
As soon as you remove the protected class concept, you remove the risk of virtue spirals.
00:52:38.160
Within the prenatalist community, we haven't really seen any virtue spirals because there
00:52:41.240
is no protected class individuals who have a lot of kids.
00:52:44.460
We are still very critical of like their child rearing practices, stuff like that.
00:52:48.020
And across the community, there is not like when extremes can be criticized within a community,
00:52:54.560
that community is safe from virtue cycles or sorry, sorry, virtue spirals.
00:52:58.800
And then when extremes are not ever criticized within a community, that is when it goes crazy.
00:53:03.560
That's when you have Salem, which trials, that's when you have goths doing insane things
00:53:14.500
If we, because again, as we've discovered with so many LGBTQIA or poly or rationalist or
00:53:21.180
whatever communities out there, any niche community of the same like general name, there are some
00:53:27.720
which are super cool and there are some which are super toxic.
00:53:31.360
So all we have to do is determine whether or not they criticize extremism.
00:53:36.180
And if they do, it's fine if our kids hang out with them, like, I think this is such
00:53:41.960
It might even be worth building a holiday around it.
00:53:44.040
Don't engage with communities that have protected classes, whether those communities are on the
00:53:48.220
right or the left or anything else, recognize the danger of this concept of a protected class
00:54:04.220
How can this be turned into something cute, photographable?
00:54:07.960
I think the extremism is different from the protected class concept.
00:54:11.560
And I would really focus on the protected class concept because I think it's much more
00:54:14.280
defensive than the extremism concept, which is to say you can be extreme in beliefs, but
00:54:19.280
there are certain beliefs where you're like, you just cannot criticize this group.
00:54:27.600
Like in, in, still in many conservative circles, and this is something that we're seeing dividing
00:54:33.900
the Republican party and causing a lot of problems.
00:54:36.320
There is no level of extremism regarding restricting abortion access that people get criticized for.
00:54:44.160
I actually had this guy call me out of the blue, call me as a candidate out of the blue
00:54:48.620
and just start yelling at me like a madman about abortion.
00:54:58.880
He was like, I just want to know your positions on this.
00:55:02.260
I'll tell you my positions on whatever you want.
00:55:05.380
And he asked, what's your position on abortion?
00:55:07.140
And I said, like, obviously America pretty much agrees on this moderate approach to abortion
00:55:14.940
More restrictive than the current stuff in our state.
00:55:18.680
But he's, no, it, life begins at conception and blah, blah, blah.
00:55:22.100
And I'm like, yeah, that is your belief system.
00:55:27.540
Although the Catholics didn't always view it that way.
00:55:30.040
So let's be honest here, but you have no more right to impose that on other people
00:55:36.120
outside the Catholic culture than other cultures have the right to impose transition,
00:55:48.400
And I hung up on him because he wouldn't stop talking.
00:55:51.620
But that's one of those things where he's never been criticized for that view.
00:55:56.680
Because I also told him, I'm like, you can have that view.
00:56:02.500
but you will not see your party get elected if you maintain a hard line stance like that,
00:56:11.340
And then you will not get the further restrictions on abortion that are realistic to impose.
00:56:17.580
Like, there's no way that you're going to get anywhere close to where you want to be
00:56:24.820
And so that, that is a really good example of a protected status, right?
00:56:27.520
He would never be questioned for that by most people.
00:56:31.120
And also he has this attitude of, if you do question me,
00:56:35.960
So I guess that's what we're talking about when it comes to protected status, right?
00:56:43.880
And I appreciate your anger as a citizen of this country.
00:56:47.600
This is what I get for answering unknown calls.
00:56:50.020
I should be answering potential constituent calls.
00:56:52.840
But when you're an idiot like that, I love you pick up and you're like, fuck off.
00:56:58.060
We need to get, we need to get, that needs to go viral.
00:57:02.960
Just people get to call into me as a political candidate and I'm like, fuck you.