Based Camp - 3rd Antinatalist Terrorist Attack!

00:00:00.000 Hello, Simone. We unfortunately just had the third suicide attack by an antinatalist.

00:00:08.880 And just for context, this is the third because the first was Sandy Hook in 2012. And then the

00:00:15.400 second was the Christchurch mosque shootings in 2019. Both were perpetrated by people who were

00:00:22.440 antinatalist, either literally part of the movement, like familiar with the philosophical

00:00:27.880 concept of ephilism, which is the extremist branch of antinatalism, which is like, oh,

00:00:32.940 let's also remove life without other people's consent. And yeah, that was Adam Lanza. We'll

00:00:38.340 get more into Adam Lanza, I want to at least. But the point being is antinatalists, and this

00:00:43.040 is something where it's a very large community. They're probably as large as the perinatalist

00:00:47.520 community if you look on Google Trends. It's not larger, actually. I want to argue that

00:00:50.680 actually it's quite larger. It's larger than you think. Yeah, which we'll get into later.

00:00:54.680 But what they believe is that humanity would be better off not existing. And what the ephilists

00:01:00.740 believe, which this latest suicide attack was motivated by, is that we also have a duty

00:01:07.640 to sterilize all other life, or quote unquote, glass the planet, so that nothing can evolve

00:01:13.220 sentience again. So we're going to be getting into these beliefs. It's been a while since

00:01:17.480 I explained why they're really stupid and actually the ideas behind them. While they make sense, 0.99

00:01:24.220 if you do not allow them to be challenged by any sort of outside logic, the moment you

00:01:28.900 apply like outside practical logic to them, they begin to fall apart really quickly. And

00:01:33.760 so it's a weird sort of logical framework in that it has internal consistency, I'll admit

00:01:37.980 that, but it lacks basic logic. So we're going to get into like way more details than anyone

00:01:43.420 has covered on this. Do you want to get started, Simone?

00:01:49.800 Yeah. So just to give the basics, a 25-year-old man named Guy Edward Bartkus

00:01:56.180 bombed the exterior of a fertility clinic in California. This, I think, injured four employees.

00:02:02.480 No one else was killed but him.

00:02:04.560 And- He also did not destroy the embryo tanks. He only damaged the waiting room.

00:02:08.520 Yeah. So fortunately he only killed himself and injured other people. However, in his video

00:02:14.280 confession, 30 minutes- Not video. It was like audio, audio confession.

00:02:17.820 Audio confession. Yeah. He admitted that he thought he might end up killing people and he didn't care

00:02:24.620 because he didn't think the lives of anyone working at an IVF clinic had value.

00:02:28.800 Well, and he also, so being someone who he calls himself a pro-mortalist, he's, he's also

00:02:34.180 clearly FList, clearly antinatalist, links to in his written manifesto, which he also provided

00:02:39.760 a bunch of links to FLism websites and content. He says in his spoken manifesto that per his life

00:02:51.580 philosophy, couples who use IVF are amongst the most, the worst form of what he calls pro-lifers,

00:02:58.740 which I think is really funny because most people who are pro-life are, who call themselves pro-life

00:03:02.720 are technically anti-abortion. And people who are anti-abortion are more conservative Christians

00:03:06.740 who also tend to be more sanctimonious against IVF. So anyway, whatever. Fine.

00:03:10.920 But you should be clear when he says pro-lifers, if you hovered over his website, what it used to

00:03:15.500 say before it was taken down is F you pro-lifers. What he means by pro-lifers are not people who are

00:03:20.400 against abortion, but people who believe life is a good thing.

00:03:24.300 Yeah. And so he's extra, he thinks that he's, as he says in his spoken manifesto, he really extra

00:03:29.200 super hates people, couples who undergo IVF because not only have they chosen to bring life 0.99

00:03:34.800 into the world and bring kids into the world, they've worked extra hard and been extra thoughtful

00:03:39.120 about it. So like, it's almost a difference between manslaughter and premeditated murder to him.

00:03:44.860 I think the words he used in his, in his speech, when he was explaining this, he goes, I am not

00:03:49.520 killing anyone. I am just changing the date that somebody dies.

00:03:53.360 Yeah. He says anyone who parents are the ones who cause death because they bring in life in the first

00:03:57.800 place. As soon as you're alive, you're going to die. And it's the parents' fault.

00:04:00.960 And so you can immediately see, he referenced the Sandy Hook shooter in his ideology.

00:04:05.120 Yes, he did.

00:04:05.500 And if you're not familiar with the Sandy Hook shooter's ideology, he believed that children

00:04:10.040 would just grow up to suffer and that by killing them while they were young, he was removing suffering

00:04:16.600 from the world. And this is why when you look at these antinatalist philosophies and terrorists,

00:04:24.380 they so frequently go after the youngest individuals because they see them as the most pure. And because

00:04:31.240 they see death brought to you by another person as the highest positive thing you can do for someone 0.98

00:04:37.240 else, it is maximally good to kill a maximum number of youngest people. That's why this guy- 0.77

00:04:44.500 Right. Because you can save them from the most suffering. Like they still have maybe 90,

00:04:49.400 more than 100 years of suffering ahead of them versus someone who's 30, you know, you've already

00:04:54.940 lost. Like there's so much suffering, you know, like, yeah, in terms of let's be logical about this.

00:04:59.400 But he is, and I just want to say in his manifesto, he explicitly links to alleged YouTube transcripts

00:05:05.480 of the Sandy Hook killer. And in those YouTube videos, the Sandy Hook killer explicitly refers to

00:05:10.700 FL-ism and is very familiar with the concept. And this is back in 2011. So this also shows you how long

00:05:16.700 the concept of antinatalism and FL-ism have been around as well, which I think is important.

00:05:23.080 Yeah. Well, and for people who aren't familiar with the Christchurch shooter, he wrote a long

00:05:26.840 manifesto where he was antinatalist for a different reason. He was of the environmentalist antinatalist

00:05:33.360 camp that thought that there were just too many humans. And specifically, he didn't like that certain

00:05:38.480 ethnic groups were having more kids.

00:05:41.660 But I think a lot of it was because he thought that those ethnic groups still had birth rates that were

00:05:45.380 too high. Yeah, he didn't. He wasn't like a, like, black people are inferior person. He was a black. 0.99

00:05:52.140 It was like they're having too many babies. No, it was specifically Muslim people are having too 1.00

00:05:55.080 many babies. It was a mosque shooting. But yeah, I mean, for him, it was too many people. But actually, 0.99

00:06:01.700 Malcolm, they're super connected because Guy Edward Bartkus, that's most recent terrorist,

00:06:08.280 is among other things, an abolitionist vegan. An abolitionist vegan, it's like, that's someone

00:06:16.940 who's, you know, for animal rights and everything. But to the extent that even animal welfare is

00:06:21.640 considered not good enough or evil by them, because that just normalizes the concept of human

00:06:26.900 enslavement of animals. And abolitionist vegans are those who, you know, no pets, no use of animals in

00:06:33.280 any way. Like, we do not touch animals. These are the type of PETA members who, like, kidnapped that

00:06:37.180 woman's dog and euthanized it. Yes, because dog ownership is also subjugation of animals and enslavement 1.00

00:06:44.080 of animals. And it's better that these things are dead. So before we get to these concepts, if you're

00:06:48.200 like a sane person and you're listening to this, you're like, wow, these people are cartoonishly evil.

00:06:53.760 And it is, yes, by any normal or, like, objective moral framework, these people are cartoonishly evil.

00:07:01.380 And we've mentioned this before. If you look at antinatalists, they've been studied by a number

00:07:07.040 of studies, specifically a pivotal study, What's Up With Antinatalists, an observational study on

00:07:12.920 their relationships between dark triad personality streets and antinatalist views. Schrodinger,

00:07:17.200 2021, found strong associations between Machiavellianism, psychopathy, and antinatalist

00:07:22.600 views, with depression acting both independently and as a mediator. This study widened the scope of dark

00:07:28.880 triad research previously linked to socially aversive moral judgments to include antinatalism.

00:07:34.240 And then they did a follow-up study to this, which replicated it. There was also a study,

00:07:38.420 SciPost, in 2022, dark triad personality traits are more common among those who believe procreation

00:07:43.740 is morally wrong. Again, narcissism, Machiavellianism, and psychopathy. Then you have an OSF, that's an

00:07:51.340 open science framework, dark triad and antinatalism from February 2020, which again found this

00:07:58.880 connection. All right, so I agree with you, and we can go into stuff about this kid's

00:08:06.140 upbringing and background that indicate that he is... Well, he didn't have a father in the picture,

00:08:11.180 which I think is a really big thing here. Yes, he was... And he birthed out his house once before.

00:08:16.360 Yes, playing with matches, but he also, according to his father, who he'd been estranged from for 10

00:08:20.940 years, really enjoyed building incendiary devices, which his father claimed were harmless, but also this

00:08:26.800 kid apparently playing with matches accidentally burned down their house. Whoops. So he also

00:08:32.960 describes himself, along with someone else that was close to him named Sophie, who we can also talk

00:08:37.860 about, described himself as having borderline personality disorder. So one, he didn't think

00:08:43.400 it was a disorder because he gave it scare quotes, but my understanding of borderline personality disorder 1.00

00:08:49.340 is basically your cunt. Like, you are just a very difficult, unpleasant person who acts out 1.00

00:08:55.960 and externalizes a lot. You're a pathological bastard. Yeah. So like, this is clearly someone 1.00

00:09:01.200 who does have behavioral problems. Borderline personality disorder, it's characterized by

00:09:05.120 tremendous impulsivity, radical confusion of identity, and then this pattern of idealization of

00:09:14.200 people with whom the person afflicted with the disorder is associating with radical idealization

00:09:22.120 of those people and then radical devaluation of them. And then there's another theme that sort of

00:09:27.200 weaves along with it, which is the proclivity of people with borderline personality disorder to

00:09:33.600 presume that they will be abandoned and then to act in a manner that makes such abandonment virtually

00:09:40.040 certain. However, I think that there's a very strong argument that anti-natalism is growing

00:09:46.040 and anti-natalism is a problem because we celebrate performative utilitarianism and goodness and empathy.

00:09:54.140 And, and let's be clear, you know, he is, he is a vegan. He believes that the most important thing

00:10:00.940 is eliminating suffering. And he points out in his written manifesto that he is, though he doesn't

00:10:08.200 believe in God, he does believe that there is objective good in the universe, and that that

00:10:13.260 objective good is minimizing suffering, which is definitely consistent with, for example, the

00:10:17.900 anti-natalism espoused by anti-natalist influencers like Lawrence Anton, who we debated in London,

00:10:22.620 who also agrees that like, very passionately, there is a thing that matters, and it is eliminating

00:10:29.300 suffering, which basically means eliminating sentience, which we would say is a great evil.

00:10:32.740 But let's just, to be clear, he explicitly says in his manifesto, our view is the opposite of

00:10:40.160 nihilism. No, we don't believe in God. But yes, we do very, very, very passionately believe in this

00:10:46.400 purpose. And this is, I think, what drives them to a certain extent to engage in acts of terror

00:10:51.040 instead of just offing themselves, because they are very zealous in this belief, which makes them

00:10:57.100 dangerous. Like, it's one thing to be nihilistic. I'm like, oh, I don't care about anything.

00:11:00.580 Everything's horrible. I think one thing you'll find with anti-natalism is, and you see this

00:11:04.600 repeatedly when people get involved with anti-natalist community or ideas, is that anti-natalism

00:11:09.240 drives depression. It's not the other way around. I do not think it's that depressed people are more

00:11:14.560 likely to become anti-natalists. I think it's, and you see this in this guy's writings, he was

00:11:19.100 talking about how he first heard about this idea, and it didn't really, it seemed stupid to him at

00:11:24.300 first, and then he began to engage with it and think about it more. And he talks about how as he 0.50

00:11:28.480 ruminated about it more, he became more and more depressed. And it seems that he probably was

00:11:33.780 infected with this idea by this girl, Sophie. So this was not his girlfriend. Shortly before

00:11:39.980 he ended up doing this, this girl had had her boyfriend, had asked her boyfriend to shoot her 0.90

00:11:45.420 in her sleep. Now her boyfriend's in jail for murder, which is one of these things where it's

00:11:49.960 like, hold on, you were going to kill yourself anyway. Why couldn't you have just taken the role

00:11:54.140 of the boyfriend? Like if you were actually a moral person, why don't you murder Sophie in her 0.98

00:11:59.160 sleep? And then you murder yourself. You don't need to bring other people into this. For people 1.00

00:12:04.280 who are so obsessed with consent, what's really interesting is him going out and attempting to

00:12:08.460 murder innocent people. He cared so little about the consent of others. And you talk about him

00:12:13.280 building incendiary devices and stuff like this. This was not a competent person, mind you. This is

00:12:17.560 somebody who, for example, tried to live stream the attack and the live stream didn't work. And

00:12:24.120 you know, they just, in a number of areas, things just didn't work or it was clear. He did, he said

00:12:29.840 one of the main reasons he did this attack is because he was frustrated that conversations about

00:12:34.680 effilism were so heavily being censored on the internet websites. The direct result of this attack

00:12:42.240 was effilism being taken down on Reddit and other, and all of the subreddits he linked to being taken

00:12:48.500 down. But actually, I want to highlight, I want to highlight that thing that he pointed out that he

00:12:52.320 felt that for years, antinatalism and effilism were being censored online and that he was having an

00:12:58.340 increasingly difficult time encountering communities that were discussing this. And I think that's

00:13:04.240 important to highlight. He said, for example, he believed that Elon Musk had banned the term

00:13:07.780 antinatalism from X as one example, despite this. So despite what may be, and this is alleged,

00:13:15.880 I haven't necessarily tested it out. Obviously there's more that's been taken down now because

00:13:20.660 of this action, but allegedly there is censorship of these concepts online. And yet, if you look at

00:13:28.360 Google trends, though, for example, the pro-life movement that we're talking about, like people who

00:13:33.680 are against abortion and antinatalism as a topic, if you look at Google trends, pro-life used to be

00:13:39.640 really, really big in the past. And then it has, it has actually gone down quite a bit. And now at

00:13:44.900 this moment, at least they're basically neck and neck. And pro-natalism and antinatalism are also

00:13:50.020 incredibly close as concepts. Pro-natalism has, if you look at Google trends, pro-natalism has people

00:13:56.820 like us, people like Elon Musk, a bunch of other advocates actively engaging with the media, pushing

00:14:01.760 this concept, et cetera, et cetera. There aren't really any very public antinatalist advocates,

00:14:08.040 like not that much. And they're certainly not very good at engaging with the media,

00:14:11.780 at least as effective as we are. And the media isn't as interested in engaging with them.

00:14:15.640 Plus apparently they're experiencing rampant online censorship. Despite this, we're seeing similar

00:14:21.720 levels of search volume. Do you understand what this means? Like this implies to me that there's

00:14:27.040 actually a much higher level of, of inherent cultural interest in antinatalist beliefs than

00:14:34.680 the internet would reflect. Well, no, I, I agree with this. I think that, that antinatalism is the

00:14:40.160 answer for your standard woke urban monoculture person. Yeah. When you point out that the way you

00:14:45.700 structured your life is not actually virtuous and is incredibly selfish and you're not paying into the

00:14:50.720 future, the debt you owe the past. And a lot of social services are going to collapse soon because of

00:14:55.240 your selfishness and you're victimizing people from third world countries to pay for your selfishness.

00:15:00.060 And then they're like, I need a philosophy that makes me not the bad guy. And so this is their

00:15:05.220 answer. Moreover, it's a philosophy that if you watch our video on like pessimists and doomerism and how

00:15:11.380 it's psychologically protective, it is an incredibly psychologically protective movement because it

00:15:16.100 allows you to always just be that pessimistic person in a group. When somebody else is excited for a

00:15:22.840 thing or happy to do a thing, if you come in and you talk down to them, or you look down on them,

00:15:27.920 this is incredibly, you, you look both to yourself and to other people in the room,

00:15:33.140 like the more mature person, like the person who has control of the conversation.

00:15:37.020 Oh yeah, you look sophisticated. You look erudite. You look dispassionate. And yeah.

00:15:53.900 You know, like the, the French philosophy guy, beatnik. Some people think the beatnik is merely

00:16:00.220 a bum with sunglasses, but he is more than that. Though not much. Beatniks hang out in unemployment 0.98

00:16:06.300 lines, health food stores, but most of all in coffee houses. The beatnik is often fond of

00:16:12.480 reading poetry to jazz. Thusly, Mary had a swinging lamb. He followed her to school. She hocked his

00:16:20.740 wool for a bongo drum and man, that lamb was cool. Thank you, Mr. North. Right. You know,

00:16:28.600 and it's, it's, I get it, right? Like I see why all of this is psychologically protective and why it is

00:16:33.260 so desirable to people who care so much about the ways that other people see them rather than

00:16:39.020 actually trying to do good. And as I pointed out with this guy, even by his own moral framework,

00:16:44.220 he died a martyr to our cause, to the pronatalist cause. His death will be useful to us in terms of

00:16:52.680 further restricting antinatalist conversation online and effilist conversation online. As to why

00:16:58.220 we would do that generally in the past, I was like, Oh, they seem like, well reasoned like nerds

00:17:03.220 or whatever. Like we can engage them with debate. But what I've seen increasingly is the amount of

00:17:08.280 depression that is downstream of this mindset, the amount of mental anguish completely unnecessary

00:17:13.700 that is downstream of this. And the amount of terrorism we're seeing from this, especially when

00:17:19.220 you give him that people like our family will likely would be targets for terrorism like this.

00:17:24.300 You know, when he talks about like the pro-lifers, like who's, you know, and hating IVF people,

00:17:28.980 you know, he's talking about people like us. Like I, you know, I think a lot of these people have

00:17:33.400 individuals like us in their minds when they are thinking about this type of stuff. And that is

00:17:39.900 horrifying when I see something like, because now, you know, every day since then, I have been

00:17:44.080 increasingly worried about the threats that individuals like this pose to our family. You know,

00:17:50.020 that Sandy Hook shooter was able to convince himself that he is doing a favor to children

00:17:55.040 by killing. You know, this is a belief that these people can build about individuals like us. And so,

00:18:02.700 you know, I feel that in the past while I was like, okay, any conversation, whatever online,

00:18:08.060 it actually probably just due to the one negative memetic weight of this ideology, there probably are

00:18:16.460 positive externalities to restricting conversation around it. Especially when you look at its propensity

00:18:23.160 to draw people with, you know, Machiavellian and psychopathic tendencies as to why it draws people

00:18:29.000 like that before we get into like the arguments against it. I think the core reason is, is it

00:18:32.400 to, to believe this philosophy. It's fundamentally people who are angry that they were brought into the

00:18:38.320 world and they don't feel like they had consent in that decision. And so they want to deny other

00:18:43.920 individuals just so that other people who are like them, because they only seem to be able to emulate

00:18:49.740 people who are like them. And I can emulate people like them. You're like, okay, it's sad. And he

00:18:53.860 complained a lot about the right to die and it not easy to take his own life in California. And I was

00:18:58.500 like, but it's just so ironic that the one thing he could have done then was help Sophie, who was his

00:19:04.160 friend who died before him die. Right. But obviously big hypocrite, everything like this, but the point I'm

00:19:11.340 making here, right. Is okay. I'll agree with them on this right to die stuff. I'll agree with them 0.99

00:19:15.520 that it should be easier, but there are ways to unalive yourself. Right. And he was real aware of

00:19:20.380 them. And he mentioned three of them. There are his manifesto. If people decide to not bring you into

00:19:27.720 this world to cause yourself to be brought into this world. And they're like, well, the extent of

00:19:32.200 the people who aren't brought into this world don't matter. And I'm like, why don't they matter?

00:19:38.020 Like there is a world in which I wasn't brought into existence. Yeah. And you're super not okay

00:19:42.900 with that. And I'm super not okay with the world in which I wasn't brought into existence.

00:19:46.080 By the time my parents found out it was too late. Somebody like walked up and forcibly sterilized

00:19:52.260 you before you had our kids, right? Like those kids wouldn't exist. The humans who I interact with

00:19:58.940 and love and hug and, and I'm excited to see how the ways they're going to change the future

00:20:03.560 wouldn't exist. If you did that, you denied their right to choose whether or not they exist.

00:20:09.840 And a person's inability to see that when they make a decision that removes another potential

00:20:18.520 person's agency, that that is just as bad as in saying, Oh, somebody brought me into the world

00:20:24.080 without consent. It's, it's because of the psychopathy. It's because of this extreme level

00:20:29.040 of Machiavellianism that they cannot emphasize with effect. And this is one of the things was

00:20:33.080 their movement is, is they know, like all of them know that the vast, vast majority of humanity

00:20:38.180 prefers existing. They like being alive and they want to exist and they refuse to attempt to emulate

00:20:45.540 these individuals worse for them than this. And this sort of like actual Thanos mindset that they

00:20:50.920 have, right? Worst than that for them is that when you look at what people say gave their life a

00:20:58.440 meaning on their deathbed, if you look at like, to me, I think great artistic depictions around

00:21:04.960 like a good life, you're looking at like the end of gladiator when he dies and, you know,

00:21:10.320 he sees his family and the kid and his hands on the grain, or you look at the end of grandma

00:21:16.020 and grandpa turned young again, that always tears me up and I'll, I'll, I'll put these here.

00:21:20.140 Don't do it to me.

00:21:21.200 Don't do it.

00:21:28.440 Don't do it.

00:21:52.900 .

00:22:20.980 Um

00:22:22.880 今

00:22:26.740 Um

00:22:31.180 以下

00:22:38.180 Masa

00:22:40.500 Be

00:22:42.260 No

00:22:43.900 No

00:22:46.460 No

00:22:49.400 but you look at these none of these are about how happy these people were in their lives

00:23:09.440 none of these are about oh my god i'm really glad for you know how many times i orgasmed

00:23:13.760 i'm really glad for all of the times i watched a movie that i really enjoyed

00:23:18.160 i'm really glad no it's about family

00:23:22.840 it's room worth one good man's life

00:23:38.960 we believed it once

00:23:48.160 make us believe it again

00:23:49.500 it's about and these are things that these people can't even begin to understand

00:23:54.220 because the urban monocultural mimetic virus has so untethered them from any of the things

00:24:01.080 that ever historically gave life a value that the only thing that's left to them within this

00:24:07.240 shallow framing is pure hedonism pure pleasure and pain and as we've pointed out in the past

00:24:14.360 these people are the human equivalent of a paperclip maximizer i don't know i think it's somewhat worse

00:24:19.600 than that because it doesn't seem that guy or his friend sophie were really they weren't focused on

00:24:27.500 on trying to pursue pleasure so calling them hedonists i think isn't even that like they

00:24:31.540 they really if any if they indulged in anything it was they indulged in their suffering and in the

00:24:37.160 suffering of the world even to an artificial extent i i agree with that but i think what you're missing

00:24:42.400 is what humans seek more than pure pleasure which is another interesting thing if you're even just

00:24:47.440 talking about purely baked in human drives is self-validation and they engaged in this

00:24:53.540 flagellation to create an image of themselves that they saw as valuable within the communities they

00:25:00.080 engaged in and that they could assign as virtuous instead of looking for actual virtue they were

00:25:06.280 trying to paint a picture of a virtuous person through this this self-flagellation and and if

00:25:12.640 you listen to his long thing he keeps talking about oh i experience pain in life oh i experience pain in

00:25:18.120 life and imagine the level of privilege you have to grow up in to expect from life a life without

00:25:26.940 suffering like that is i wouldn't even like we've you know but he doesn't he doesn't and and one of

00:25:32.100 the one of the things that i just don't understand he kept saying life is a zero sum game and no one

00:25:39.060 wins and i'm like one like if it's zero sum someone's winning and i don't think he actually

00:25:43.580 understands what zero sum means he even he didn't seem to understand what he was like did i say that

00:25:47.900 right i hope i said that right i don't so when it hold on definition time zero sum means a game

00:25:53.880 in which you can only win by hurting somebody else yeah like there's there's a limited resource like

00:25:59.280 there's three points and if i take two points then you don't have those two points but i i literally

00:26:04.200 don't think that's what he thought because he thought everyone loses so like i mean if life were

00:26:08.240 a zero sum game then like good for the winners you know by the way just just for clarification

00:26:12.880 life is literally quite the opposite of a zero sum game so true and that's the thing i really don't

00:26:17.820 think he knew what he was saying pleasure and satisfaction ends up giving somebody else pleasure

00:26:23.420 and satisfaction yes whether we are talking about sex or being a good parent for your kids or creating

00:26:29.320 a good book or movie or creating a good video game or you know everything even happiness is infectious

00:26:36.520 when you're surrounded by depressed people you tend to get more depressed when you're surrounded by

00:26:40.140 happy people i think you get more happy on average even consider the creation of this show that

00:26:46.440 you're listening to now when i create an episode that a lot of people like and find enriching and make

00:26:51.360 their lives better i feel happy i get positive emotional response from that when i create an episode

00:26:58.360 that does the opposite i get a negative emotional response that is literally the antithesis of a zero

00:27:06.040 sum game yeah yeah and i i 100 hear you there but the point i was making earlier is the things that

00:27:14.000 cause a human being suffering are just the things that our ancestors if they experienced this sort of

00:27:21.460 negative emotional stimuli in response to certain environmental factors caused them to have more

00:27:26.760 surviving offspring this is their sort of hard coding if you say is that the thing of core value in the

00:27:33.220 universe the thing that led to our ancestors having more surviving offspring i'm like very obviously not

00:27:39.580 like and and it's this is why i call him a paperclip maximizer to an extent in at least in regards to

00:27:45.480 the suffering emotion in regards to his logic is that you know he would say to us well you wouldn't

00:27:51.040 like it if i forced you to suffer this is the same way of like a group of paperclip maximizing robots

00:27:56.040 saying to another one well you wouldn't like it if i stopped you from making paperclips and it would be

00:27:59.860 like well yeah i mean obviously but what was on about him actually is that he he wasn't even arguing

00:28:05.640 that per se he he literally resented anyone trying to make his life nice for example he talked about

00:28:13.000 how annoying it was when friends would try to get him to go to a concert with him and get it force him

00:28:18.220 to have fun because it subverts his his his self-perception of this suffering individual that was what

00:28:25.800 was core to him above all else and this is why i think that epilist and antinatalist communities are so

00:28:32.240 toxic at the end of the day is because if you are a happy or chipper person within these communities

00:28:38.960 you end up being attacked or low status within these communities you need to cultivate to work

00:28:46.380 your way up within these status hierarchies in a an incredibly pessimistic view of reality

00:28:52.700 which he represents in in a big way and we're going to do another episode where i'm going to

00:28:58.860 contrast to animes that i think do a good job of sort of representing different ways of seeing

00:29:03.600 things one is chinubyu about this girl who pretends that she has magical powers as sort of a coping

00:29:10.160 mechanism around her father dying and she's living a really terrible life

00:29:13.540 and she's living a really terrible life

00:29:43.280 and then another what a moat around a girl who is desperate from validation for other people and

00:29:49.100 indulges in her own self-hatred cycles

00:29:52.460 later

00:30:03.400 i did it

00:30:04.700 i had a totally normal conversation with someone

00:30:08.180 she changed too much is this even the same person

00:30:12.040 why did she come to me eat a mini skirt is she trying to seduce me 1.00

00:30:16.220 she smells so good

00:30:20.720 what is this do all girls smell like this 1.00

00:30:24.140 female hormones did she say felicio chino 0.99

00:30:28.080 is that some sort of dirty joke what's going on 0.76

00:30:30.700 and while the girl in what a moat objectively had the better life than the girl from chinubyu

00:30:44.180 the girl from chinubyu ends up living a much better life

00:30:47.080 because even when life is hard what she understands fundamentally is she can recontextualize

00:30:54.160 all of the things in her life which recontextualizes the emotions that she is getting from those things

00:31:00.360 our emotional systems are so simple to hack

00:31:03.600 but the other thing about

00:31:04.940 well this is why we like the adams family so much too

00:31:07.100 is that they really epitomize this

00:31:08.620 she recognizes that she can choose whose validation she seeks

00:31:14.560 she doesn't need to seek it from just everyone or from toxic communities

00:31:18.560 and if you seek the validation of toxic communities

00:31:21.680 it over time corrupts your soul

00:31:24.660 whatever you want to say soul or anything like that

00:31:27.320 until you're this shadow of a human like this individual had become 0.99

00:31:31.440 i do not think that he was a objectively stupid person 0.99

00:31:35.380 i think that he was somebody whose mind had been so ravaged 0.96

00:31:39.360 by this sort of mindset that he was unable to logically think anymore

00:31:44.940 that he thought that he could increase the visibility of ethelism

00:31:48.460 by doing something that would cause all the ethelist communities to be shut down 0.98

00:31:52.340 like very obviously if then logic

00:31:55.600 and i i know if ethelists are like oh how could you say to my earlier argument

00:31:59.280 how could you say somebody who hasn't been brought into the world yet

00:32:01.900 has any any rights or any concept of consent

00:32:04.780 and it's like well when does the consent right start right

00:32:07.400 like you you clearly you're drawing some sort of arbitrary line

00:32:10.840 in the same way that people who believe that life begins at conception do

00:32:13.200 which obviously we're very against you can see any of our episodes on that

00:32:16.120 where you're saying we think that life begins basically before conception

00:32:19.440 if you talk someone out to having a kid or you you prevent them from having a kid

00:32:23.340 you have ended the lives and the choice to be alive of their potential kids in the future

00:32:27.580 i think that that's the only morally consistent way that you can view this

00:32:30.460 because otherwise you're dealing with an arbitrary barrier where life exists

00:32:34.580 and life doesn't exist if you look at for example david benatar's writings

00:32:37.760 he believes people have a moral mandate to abortion until consciousness

00:32:41.020 so it's not that they believe that life begins at conception

00:32:42.940 they believe that there's some stage at human embryonic development

00:32:46.700 where they have consciousness and now they have an absolute right to continue existing

00:32:50.220 so somewhere a little after at or after week 12 then 1.00

00:32:54.200 yeah which to me i think is just stupid 0.61

00:32:56.860 and this is why i actually think that ephilism is more logically consistent than generic antinatalism 0.96

00:33:02.380 generic antinatalism is just the version of ephilism

00:33:06.220 where they do make this arbitrary distinction and they say okay now all lives after this point matter

00:33:10.920 all lives before this point don't matter and i'm like why are you making this arbitrary distinction

00:33:15.720 why can't you just say all potential lives matter um and and so i think it's one of the things where

00:33:22.160 and i think any rational person can immediately see this if they're thinking clearly

00:33:26.540 you're just using like a trick of philosophy if you say well my kid's life didn't matter before they were conceived

00:33:32.920 my kid's life didn't matter before they developed consciousness

00:33:35.680 it's like why if they were going to matter within a certain timeline with certain decisions

00:33:40.160 like we can get into like all of the specific arguments about the environment or stuff like that

00:33:43.600 i don't care about this i think that that's like the one thing that just like immediately breaks their argument

00:33:48.600 and comes down to like pedantic philosophizing

00:33:51.200 rather than actually thinking through the consequences of their actions

00:33:54.880 well there's one area where i vehemently agree with him and i i agree that

00:34:01.420 these kinds of communities online are you know should should be regarded and treated and

00:34:08.620 censored as much as i would prefer a world with lots of free speech the same way that any

00:34:13.940 any group advocating for some form of genocide should be censored i think a much more meaningful

00:34:21.100 but also much more difficult to pursue policy change is right to die and that is a huge thing

00:34:29.280 that this guy rants again about in his in his spoken manifesto

00:34:33.460 and that clearly he and his friend dealt with as an issue

00:34:37.660 he points out that people who've researched mass shootings have found that

00:34:42.840 typically precipitating events for these mass shootings were

00:34:47.180 desired suicides or botched attempts to end their own lives he even goes through this

00:34:54.280 yeah he goes through this and he says we need to have a right to die with dignity

00:34:59.060 and i 100 agree i i do think that as much as is a an unborn person cannot give consent

00:35:07.020 to live or not live you shouldn't remove the consent or ability of an existing person

00:35:14.420 of sufficient age and cognitive capacity to choose to end their lives and i do think that

00:35:19.600 it should be not as difficult as it is now and he you know he pointed out that for example like

00:35:24.300 holding a gun to your head and pulling the trigger is scary and like it's it's just hard for a lot of

00:35:28.800 people to get past that even if they really want it and i i hear that i mean when my mom was

00:35:33.940 terminally ill i mean this this wouldn't have happened had he had had the right to die 100 and that's

00:35:39.840 the thing is like i think antinatalists believe and i think truly i mean based on culture in some

00:35:47.200 cases just based on having you know very severe untreated or maybe even unsuccessfully treated

00:35:52.000 clinical depression really just don't want to live anymore they absolutely should have the right to die

00:35:57.820 and if they had that easy right the right to die is a bigger issue here if you're looking at

00:36:02.660 demographic collapse as well because we're going to have an increasing number of old people 1.00

00:36:06.900 who you know if you look at the last few years of somebody's life that's when they spend like the

00:36:11.920 majority of the money that that would be spent on them in medical costs yeah your very end of life

00:36:17.200 care is just astronomically expensive yeah which is why canada's maid program is very smart yeah you

00:36:24.580 can look at our thing of is it okay for canada to be killing sad homeless people and we did an

00:36:29.420 episode on this where we argue about this pretty extensively and i think it's just something that

00:36:32.880 anyone who's being practical is eventually going to be like

00:36:34.700 yeah we need to stop restricting this and at the end of the day if you're like well but then they

00:36:39.460 go straight to hell or they're defying god look the people who are doing this don't believe in

00:36:43.120 in god anyway like exactly yeah you know so they're not there believe this is wrong are not going to do 0.96

00:36:48.780 it and the people who you shouldn't you shouldn't impose your culture on other people it's just wrong

00:36:53.700 yeah so so i will agree with him on that point all this violence could this violence could have been

00:37:00.980 avoided it's not fair his violence his violence could have been avoided but i but i think his

00:37:06.880 violence also could have been avoided if these communities access to them was more restricted

00:37:12.340 like i don't see anything yeah there's like literally zero positive externality and i think

00:37:17.840 that websites that host communities like this like reddit and stuff like that need to be further

00:37:22.140 pressured it is obviously beyond the pale for them to have a a group that says we need to sterilize

00:37:29.340 all black people or we need to sterilize all jews why is it not equally bad to have a group that says 0.95

00:37:35.580 we need to sterilize all people yeah it should be like multiplicatively worse yeah for them to be 0.99

00:37:41.620 hosting these groups especially when these groups seem to be motivating as much terrorism as these

00:37:47.280 other groups yeah and it's just oh well and worse is these people's terrorism always targets like

00:37:52.620 children and young people that's the other thing about it if they have like a uniquely evil form of

00:37:58.320 terrorism that is completely downstream and you see this in this one guy's speech is that he didn't

00:38:04.100 want to in the same way the girl who got her boyfriend to kill her he didn't want to be responsible for

00:38:08.440 his own death all of the anger that you see was in the effilis community can fundamentally be boiled down 0.58

00:38:15.580 to i hate that i am burdened i i go around telling everyone i would rather be dead and i hate that i am

00:38:23.040 burdened was having to follow through what i am going around telling everyone for status i hate

00:38:28.660 that that responsibility is on me why couldn't somebody else have burdened that responsibility

00:38:34.580 my parents or something like that and i'm willing to deny thousands of other people who would want to

00:38:39.820 live the right to exist just so other people who might be in my position don't end up in that position

00:38:46.540 and to me that's just like what like the the level of narcissism required to have that perspective

00:38:52.840 but it is within ebony effilis writing you will always see it as the core thing that is leading to

00:38:59.140 this because the the easy answer to all this is well you should just take your own life then right like

00:39:04.520 you have a choice to not exist but if i don't bring my kid into the world they don't get the choice to

00:39:09.900 exist you always have a choice and this is fundamentally why the effilis ideology why you see terrorism from

00:39:16.220 them and not from pronatalists because pronatalism despite what our detractors will tell you is

00:39:20.800 always every major pronatalist i know is like a voluntary pronatalist they believe they're strongly

00:39:25.580 against coercion it's very ironic how much he and other um antinatalist terrorists talk about

00:39:33.800 coercion being evil and yet they their entire philosophy is based around coercion because effilism can

00:39:40.540 only work if they can enforce their views on other people if they can enforce people who would

00:39:47.580 otherwise choose to have kids to stop having kids and just to trim something really quick again

00:39:52.980 pronatalists are not pro-lifers there are some pro-lifers who call themselves pronatals but when

00:39:57.640 we talk about when i'm talking about pro-life here i'm talking about anti-abortion people

00:40:00.980 anti-abortion people are often fighting for policies that do remove consent from people

00:40:05.620 that i agree but every major pronatalist i know like every single leader in the movement is pro

00:40:12.240 abortion was in you know limited time spans like very early pregnancy when it's clear that there's

00:40:17.320 no nervous system every major pronatalist advocate i know is is pro never coercing anyone to have kids

00:40:24.200 we are very happy that dinks are leaving the gene pool we are very happy that people like this guy 1.00

00:40:28.620 are leaving the the culture and gene pool and you know i think that cultures that and people who

00:40:33.980 like being alive and want more people like them to be alive in the future should be the ones who

00:40:38.160 populate the future and and that's why we as a movement you know do so much to make it easier for

00:40:44.240 people who already want to have lots of kids to have more kids because the pronatalist movement can

00:40:49.420 function without coercion because all we care about is making it easier for the people who want to exist

00:40:54.200 in the future to exist in the future the anti-natalist and epilist movement are fundamentally they require

00:41:01.620 coercion to work they require removing the consent of others to work they remind require removing the

00:41:07.140 consent of animals to work and i think that that is is fundamentally why at the end of the day they

00:41:13.980 lead to terrorism and pronatalism never does which is just fascinating to me that that we happen to live

00:41:22.620 in a time where the people we are fighting against are so fundamentally evil they are and everybody keeps

00:41:28.220 saying this when they read his they're like he's like a caricature from like a jrpg novel like as

00:41:32.540 magold was saying this uh or jrpg game and then leaflet was like yes he absolutely is in terms of

00:41:38.360 his belief system and it's it's it's it's true like these individuals seem to lack the ability to take a

00:41:46.600 few steps back and be like i want to remove the vast majority of humanity's right to consent and i want

00:41:52.820 to eradicate all living things which at the very least is going to involve removing the consent of

00:41:57.540 because a lot of things you destroy aren't humans and things aren't humans always want to survive

00:42:03.120 there there is not really there there are yeah but they just say that there's consciousness being

00:42:09.280 subjugated to the coercive evil will of dna and i can't remember if it was the sandy hook terrorist who

00:42:16.720 said something like this in the transcript the alleged transcript that this guy shared or if it was this

00:42:21.860 guy but definitely their belief is we are the slaves of dna that is hypnotizing us into wanting to survive 0.59

00:42:31.100 and reproduce and we have to break the cycle this guy who who committed the most recent act of terror

00:42:37.880 again abolitionist vegan thinks that you know everyone's suffering and but also like

00:42:43.680 he he acknowledges that nature is even more brutal than like industrial farming and agriculture animals

00:42:53.200 sterilize all animals yeah so like yeah it's not just humans it's it's everything it's it's the end of

00:42:58.880 all life people are dangerous we can see this now like this exists in public like these people are

00:43:03.040 dangerous well and again they're dangerous because they are zealots because this isn't this isn't about

00:43:08.200 ennui this isn't about depression and leaning back it is saying i very strongly believe that any negative

00:43:15.100 experience is all that matters no positive experience by the way the reason why you need to take this

00:43:21.660 perspective the reason why you can't believe that even somebody who experiences more positive emotions

00:43:26.860 than negative emotions is living a life of value is because if you took a moment to think about this if you

00:43:32.520 were somebody like him and you looked at the speed of ai advancement you look at its ability to edit genes

00:43:37.100 you would be like hey humanity is maybe a hundred years away from removing suffering altogether from

00:43:42.640 the species they were so having ai simulated environments for anyone who wants them from

00:43:46.920 having you know the ability to remove pain from our genes the ability to remove you know re-edit

00:43:52.660 ourselves i think what we're going to find is that most people who survive and the cultures that

00:43:56.940 survive don't remove that stuff because they see it as something of fundamental value but he you know

00:44:02.080 lacks the intellectual maturity to see that so even from his perspective he thought well the vast majority of

00:44:06.820 people would remove all of this from themselves if they could we are close to that we are so much

00:44:12.460 suffering has been gone through in the great cycle of history that we are almost to a point where now

00:44:18.000 we can begin to start piling on the scale in the opposite direction well they're trying to prevent us

00:44:23.260 from reaching that turning point and it's not even that they're not aware of this reality his friend

00:44:28.040 sophie on tiktok literally has a post responding to this responding to the statement this is the best time to be

00:44:33.760 alive and she has the whole rant against it so i don't think this is even a matter of ignorance

00:44:38.320 did you find it or like do you i i didn't even listen to the whole thing because she's just very

00:44:42.120 annoying and the audio is bad but yeah she they're aware of this argument they don't buy it and i don't

00:44:48.700 know if it's it's willful refusal to engage with the situation no it's because this one drop of pain

00:44:54.060 matters more than infinity drops of of pleasure well and we clarified this with the much more on much

00:45:00.220 less unhinged lawrence anton who's a prominent anti-natalist advocate in the uk um who is is very

00:45:07.980 kind also vegan like very empathetic more more socially acceptable and and and all that very nice

00:45:15.000 but he we asked him okay so there's one planet that has nothing but like thriving life like absolutely

00:45:23.940 everyone is is having an amazing perfect existence and then maybe one person suffered for like a year

00:45:31.260 and then there's another planet that is just completely devoid of life it is a rock yeah which

00:45:36.600 planet would you rather have be the only planet in existence and he chooses the rock because there

00:45:41.920 is one person who like suffered for a year on the planet full of otherwise 100% flourishing

00:45:47.980 incredibly happy people and billions of them so and i hope that anyone like if you're beginning to

00:45:53.380 engage with this ideology you can immediately see how comical that is that that does not make sense

00:45:58.920 but but again this is this is religious zealotry without a belief in god this is i care about one

00:46:06.780 thing and it is the complete elimination of suffering i think you know once someone chooses that that's

00:46:12.360 their objective function they're they're gonna there's really no argument that you can make

00:46:18.060 to convince them that they're wrong and that suffering isn't that important in in a larger

00:46:28.680 scheme of things yeah they've chosen i mean like to in the end as we i mean even if you assume that

00:46:35.600 their arguments are right right you know at least the net suffering versus net pleasure argument

00:46:40.120 their actions are still wrong because eventually humanity will get to a point like very soon we can

00:46:45.340 already see the other end of this timeline right and and and that's if you assume their whole

00:46:50.840 suffering argument and and they should be most pro people like us because we are you know in the eyes

00:46:56.780 of other conservatives seen as transhumanists and i don't identify the transhumanists but i believe we

00:47:00.320 have a moral mandate to intergenerational improvement and that includes a genetic and technological

00:47:05.700 augmentation so like we are the branch of humanity most likely to see that future happen

00:47:10.840 but again we don't even see the world that way like if i could remove suffering for myself i would

00:47:16.480 like i might put caps on suffering i might be like okay it might make sense to mitigate it in extreme

00:47:20.860 circumstances with like my kids and stuff like that 100 but i i wouldn't remove it entirely because i

00:47:27.720 don't see it as the core boogeyman of all reality the core boogeyman of all reality is stagnation

00:47:33.760 not suffering suffering is what motivates us to not stagnate and in that way you know it's like

00:47:40.840 saying fire bad you know it's like well fire can burn you if you get too much of it but it is it's

00:47:46.600 like saying traffic lights are bad all right it's it's a signal suffering is a signal pleasure is a

00:47:52.040 signal signals are bad traffic signals are bad signals are bad because i don't like when a signal

00:47:56.280 says stop yeah that's really what it is yeah all it's like a child who's like all rules are bad like

00:48:02.560 because i don't like it when people tell me to say stop and we we need to have well they also

00:48:06.360 adam lanza the sandy hook killer like specifically what had that view he was extremely phobic of the

00:48:14.300 very concept of culture saw it as this form of subjugation or enslavement and especially

00:48:19.480 contextualized it along the lines of people um you know getting him in trouble and trying to force him

00:48:26.680 to live a certain way so this is this is a thing that many of them appear to have problems yeah so they

00:48:31.620 actually you see this with this other guy as well i don't want to go do these things that make other

00:48:35.400 people happy like i don't want to engage in something that could bring meaning to my life

00:48:38.960 and so i think what you're seeing here you might have pulled on something that i hadn't realized before

00:48:43.300 a lot of these anti-natalist and effelists hate culture as well they hate anything whether it's

00:48:49.340 cultural biological or even intellectual that puts constraints on their actions they're like i should

00:48:56.380 be able to do whatever i feel like whenever i want and feel pleasure in doing that thing yeah and and

00:49:01.240 adam lanza again the sandy hook killer in his alleged transcript of youtube videos that were

00:49:06.960 taken down but back from 2011 he he basically argues that children existed primarily to propagate the

00:49:13.260 values of the adults and culture that raised them and he hates culture so like you could see why he

00:49:18.960 targeted children in his act of terror because he's like these people are the victims and vehicles for

00:49:25.300 this thing that i hate or you could be viewed it as a source of sorrow and horror both to himself

00:49:30.360 and for all being subjected to it so yeah there's definitely something going on there and the same

00:49:35.460 thing is what a what a emotionally healthy person would say is is children exist to improve the culture

00:49:42.140 of adults that's why we get the benefit of old age and dying instead of living forever and that's why

00:49:48.100 most of the pronatalists i know are also anti-extreme life extension because you know children are in my

00:49:55.540 child as opposed to extreme life extension which is technologically in the cards of the near future

00:49:59.420 is my chance to say hey you know octavian here's everything i believe and now he without my prejudices

00:50:06.160 without my perspective can say okay well here's the parts of that i agree with here are the parts of

00:50:10.740 that i disagree with and and through that builds a world perspective that is superior to my own

00:50:16.340 and this is why i'm okay with with that and i think that's the way of emotionally healthy people

00:50:22.500 view kids is is kids get to pass judgment on their parents perspectives and that's what makes

00:50:29.660 it superior to a system where we just live forever and this is something where when this guy passed

00:50:34.500 judgment on his parents perspectives he's like well i don't think they're good and that's fine you

00:50:38.600 know if i i think it's good that we live in a world where if you try to raise your kids like in an 0.78

00:50:44.480 urban monoculture for example and they're like hey the culture you raised me with gave me no reason

00:50:49.360 to want to continue existing that's great just don't then attempt to remove the consent of others

00:50:54.360 like this is a decision that you're making for yourself and it's a decision that i advocate and

00:50:59.420 i'm okay with and so i almost wish there was a form of this anti-natalist philosophy that was just

00:51:04.740 focused on self-deletion instead of other deletion yeah in normalizing euthanasia opt-in euthanasia

00:51:12.580 yeah these people just need the izakai themselves like imagine this guy finds out that the buddhists 1.00

00:51:16.940 were right you know he's like no reincarnation you know and this is why i've often joked the first time

00:51:24.300 i said this to simone she got really mad at me because she was raised partially a buddhist and

00:51:27.120 she i've noticed people who westerners who have at one point considered themselves buddhists often have

00:51:32.860 a uniquely low understanding of what buddhists actually believe like like more so than almost anyone

00:51:38.160 else i've met and i was like well buddhists are basically just like anti-natalist philosophy on

00:51:42.580 steroids like they want to delete all existence they want to remove all thought and experience

00:51:49.000 and they view the horror of existence is reincarnation right like reincarnation it's something you're trying

00:51:55.100 to end the first time i mentioned this to you you were like you got all mad at me and then you did

00:51:58.480 this weird thing where like a few days later you're like you were arguing from my perspective and i was

00:52:03.020 like when did you change your mind at the end of that argument you were mad at me

00:52:06.300 a few days later you 100 believed me well what changed there i thought about it

00:52:11.960 okay sometimes truths aren't fun to hear and if you watch our stuff on like spiral versus

00:52:21.280 anti-spiral ideologies you should check out our track down this mark my words this drill will open

00:52:27.740 a hole in the universe and that hole will be a path for those behind us the dreams of those who have

00:52:34.080 fallen the hopes of those who will follow those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix

00:52:40.780 drilling a path towards tomorrow like how do techno puritans define good things like this

00:52:46.400 anti-natalist ideology and like the buddhism more broadly not all schools of buddhism but a lot of them

00:52:52.220 fall into this anti-natalist mindset right i'll fall into this anti-spiral mindset which i think is a

00:52:56.800 better judgment of bad than suffering and then you have the the obviously the spiral instead of the

00:53:03.580 anti-spiral all comes from current login which i think is a very good and tight description of

00:53:07.740 what good is any final thoughts simone or any other things you ran into about this guy

00:53:12.920 no i mean aside from that maybe he was radicalized by his friend sophie who he deeply admired he linked

00:53:20.780 to her social media pages he said that his assumption if he understood if he remembered correctly was

00:53:28.060 that if one of them died the other one would shortly follow so i feel like she absolutely

00:53:33.020 played a role in radicalizing him her online handle typically was vegan to natalist like vegan anti-natalist

00:53:41.160 and i love how they're fundamentally both in their death proved themselves to be fundamentally selfish

00:53:47.260 and self-centered people because she ruined a man's life in her selfish life by having her him shoot her in 0.99

00:53:53.200 her sleep she could have taken that responsibility on herself and this is what we regularly see within

00:53:57.960 this community is a refusal to take their responsibility themselves yeah so just i think

00:54:03.360 it's important to to point out the role that community does play in this that i i don't think

00:54:10.760 i mean one if he had been able to end his own life much more easily this would not have happened

00:54:15.480 and he could have more easily i mean it wouldn't have happened like even more easily than we have

00:54:20.740 today in our society but there were other options for him well i think one of the reasons why he did

00:54:27.760 what he did though was he wanted to raise awareness about we know he wanted to like an ant that's been

00:54:34.760 infected by a you know toxoplasmosis or what is it cordyceps virus cordyceps virus or fungus where

00:54:41.700 you know it eats their brains and it just wants to spread itself and after it's consumed everything

00:54:47.180 that's inside of them it drives them to go up a stalk of like grass so that a fungal growth can

00:54:53.120 grow from it to spread the spores as far as possible nothing of a host survives your friend

00:54:59.260 had a feeble mind it suffered greatly and gave in easily

00:55:04.600 this mimetic virus had destroyed this guy's mind and he decided to use his death to try to spread

00:55:14.160 the virus to as many other people as possible and fortunately again he died a martyr to our cause not

00:55:20.380 his own because his death has been able to shut down the spread of the virus because it had already

00:55:26.680 so spongified his own mind that he didn't somehow think beyond self-validation that this would cause

00:55:34.380 the topic to become more restricted in terms of a talking point and make us look like more of the

00:55:39.540 good guy in the public eye maybe i i do worry that he has raised awareness about i know i think we need

00:55:47.860 to raise awareness of it as a terrorist movement yeah but i think that people in the movement are kind

00:55:52.960 of like before the flism subreddit was shut down the top post after this happened was like oh is this

00:55:58.920 us i i know i loved it and a bunch of the comments were people being like well we don't hold these

00:56:04.300 beliefs and then the top voted comment under it was like yes we do like what are you talking about

00:56:08.480 yeah yeah we absolutely do yeah so yeah so that evident it worries me but yeah everyone be safe out

00:56:17.540 there please and be careful be safe out there be careful and we hope that you know as as we grow

00:56:25.460 this movement we can keep it you know we don't ever have our own terrorists to deal with which

00:56:29.440 fortunately we haven't yet and i don't i don't know how prenatalism could motivate terrorism because

00:56:34.460 it just like motivates a life of dedication to the future and in your children we both work and sleep

00:56:39.100 next to multiple firearms and other weapons we have all these different security systems in our house

00:56:46.900 like i would say that we've become more and more paranoid every single day yeah so that's not

00:56:52.100 great but we get a lot of death threats but we've got to do this you know no one else is well and now

00:57:03.120 you can see why right why people don't want to come out as prenatalists because there are very

00:57:10.920 well i mean i think that this these movements the anti-natalists and the effortless need to be

00:57:15.600 stigmatized in the same way that we would stigmatize a a racist who wanted to sterilize like black people

00:57:20.480 or an anti-semite who wanted to sterilize jews like or an anti-abortion activist who wanted to bomb

00:57:25.320 clinics yeah which is what most people thought he was when this first came out just like oh right no i

00:57:31.220 actually disagree with your thought there because they could say well you know you don't frame all the

00:57:36.180 anti-abortion activists this way just because of the most crazy people what i am framing them

00:57:40.720 negatively by is the beliefs that the mainstream of the movement holds which is mass sterilization

00:57:46.680 that is a mainstream view that is not an extremist view within the movement because they know even if

00:57:51.520 they convinced everyone if there was a few people who didn't agree with them and obviously most people

00:57:56.340 aren't going to agree with them because most people like being alive they can only win in the

00:57:59.480 end by forced sterilization i don't know lawrence anton was very clear i mean and i think

00:58:05.060 the the purest and actually most logically coherent members of the i don't know i disagree i think

00:58:12.460 extremely against removing consent and even these people who were were in favor of and who are

00:58:18.240 effilists and therefore are clearly for removing consent still talk about the evils of removing consent

00:58:25.120 all the time i think that the logically coherent element of anti-natalism not effilism is we need to

00:58:31.360 do this in a way where we convince everyone to not do this although that kind of gets more

00:58:37.620 complicated because they also want to sterilize animals but still i'm just trying to they know 0.98

00:58:43.980 better than the animals are just so stupid they just i'm trying to be terrible like people in africa 1.00

00:58:48.980 like if you if you read of like david benatar things about like poor starving people in africa 1.00

00:58:52.780 you know he's like well you know they're basically just too stupid to know they should hate their lives 0.99

00:58:57.280 um basically their argument okay my god you you can't understand how somebody with less than you 0.99

00:59:03.820 could be more satisfied with their life and this individual it doesn't appear that he'd ever worked

00:59:07.860 a way in his life from what i could see it doesn't appear like he he genuinely had one of the least

00:59:12.400 he appeared to be from like a middle class upper middle class family it didn't appear that he had

00:59:17.280 ever had any real suffering in his life other than growing up without a dad there

00:59:20.720 yeah i don't know anyway love you to death simone i love you too stay alive protect your kids

00:59:29.840 how's it doing being back from the cruise recording episodes again really good i so miss having our

00:59:39.820 talks and yeah i don't think people i don't know i wonder if other parents experience what we experience

00:59:46.700 when we talk around our kids when our kids start vehemently insisting that we must not talk

00:59:50.640 stop talking to each other yeah i wonder if that's just like me and my desperate desire for

00:59:55.080 attention this is gotta listen to me i have something to say

00:59:59.020 god forbid we have something to say to each other well no no that's not allowed and then they have

01:00:06.040 nothing to say yeah well i mean they they sort of they just want they just want to be the ones to

01:00:12.220 talk so they'll be like well and then the the rocks i have two rocks they get really shy the moment

01:00:17.740 you show them a bit of attention but they demand the attention the attention is not optional the

01:00:23.700 attention is mandatory so it's really nice to yeah with before our kids get home it's really lovely to

01:00:31.900 talk with you

01:00:32.860 oh my legs 1.00

01:00:52.860 and i'll poke you in the 0.99

01:00:59.340 not my head 0.99

01:01:02.540 good job

01:01:07.500 oh you've taken out all my my my inner

01:01:15.820 no

01:01:31.260 you

01:01:31.320 yeah

01:01:32.380 you

01:01:33.260 yeah

01:01:34.060 yeah

01:01:38.560 yeah

Based Camp - May 20, 2025

3rd Antinatalist Terrorist Attack!

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