3rd Antinatalist Terrorist Attack!
Episode Stats
Length
1 hour and 1 minute
Words per Minute
173.73653
Summary
In this episode, we discuss the third suicide attack carried out by an antinatalist, a group of extremists who believe that life should be eradicated from the world. They believe that we should sterilize all other life so that we don t have to suffer anymore.
Transcript
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Hello, Simone. We unfortunately just had the third suicide attack by an antinatalist.
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And just for context, this is the third because the first was Sandy Hook in 2012. And then the
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second was the Christchurch mosque shootings in 2019. Both were perpetrated by people who were
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antinatalist, either literally part of the movement, like familiar with the philosophical
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concept of ephilism, which is the extremist branch of antinatalism, which is like, oh,
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let's also remove life without other people's consent. And yeah, that was Adam Lanza. We'll
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get more into Adam Lanza, I want to at least. But the point being is antinatalists, and this
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is something where it's a very large community. They're probably as large as the perinatalist
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community if you look on Google Trends. It's not larger, actually. I want to argue that
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actually it's quite larger. It's larger than you think. Yeah, which we'll get into later.
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But what they believe is that humanity would be better off not existing. And what the ephilists
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believe, which this latest suicide attack was motivated by, is that we also have a duty
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to sterilize all other life, or quote unquote, glass the planet, so that nothing can evolve
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sentience again. So we're going to be getting into these beliefs. It's been a while since
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I explained why they're really stupid and actually the ideas behind them. While they make sense,
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if you do not allow them to be challenged by any sort of outside logic, the moment you
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apply like outside practical logic to them, they begin to fall apart really quickly. And
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so it's a weird sort of logical framework in that it has internal consistency, I'll admit
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that, but it lacks basic logic. So we're going to get into like way more details than anyone
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has covered on this. Do you want to get started, Simone?
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Yeah. So just to give the basics, a 25-year-old man named Guy Edward Bartkus
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bombed the exterior of a fertility clinic in California. This, I think, injured four employees.
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And- He also did not destroy the embryo tanks. He only damaged the waiting room.
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Yeah. So fortunately he only killed himself and injured other people. However, in his video
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confession, 30 minutes- Not video. It was like audio, audio confession.
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Audio confession. Yeah. He admitted that he thought he might end up killing people and he didn't care
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because he didn't think the lives of anyone working at an IVF clinic had value.
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Well, and he also, so being someone who he calls himself a pro-mortalist, he's, he's also
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clearly FList, clearly antinatalist, links to in his written manifesto, which he also provided
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a bunch of links to FLism websites and content. He says in his spoken manifesto that per his life
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philosophy, couples who use IVF are amongst the most, the worst form of what he calls pro-lifers,
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which I think is really funny because most people who are pro-life are, who call themselves pro-life
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are technically anti-abortion. And people who are anti-abortion are more conservative Christians
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who also tend to be more sanctimonious against IVF. So anyway, whatever. Fine.
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But you should be clear when he says pro-lifers, if you hovered over his website, what it used to
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say before it was taken down is F you pro-lifers. What he means by pro-lifers are not people who are
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against abortion, but people who believe life is a good thing.
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Yeah. And so he's extra, he thinks that he's, as he says in his spoken manifesto, he really extra
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super hates people, couples who undergo IVF because not only have they chosen to bring life
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into the world and bring kids into the world, they've worked extra hard and been extra thoughtful
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about it. So like, it's almost a difference between manslaughter and premeditated murder to him.
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I think the words he used in his, in his speech, when he was explaining this, he goes, I am not
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killing anyone. I am just changing the date that somebody dies.
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Yeah. He says anyone who parents are the ones who cause death because they bring in life in the first
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place. As soon as you're alive, you're going to die. And it's the parents' fault.
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And so you can immediately see, he referenced the Sandy Hook shooter in his ideology.
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And if you're not familiar with the Sandy Hook shooter's ideology, he believed that children
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would just grow up to suffer and that by killing them while they were young, he was removing suffering
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from the world. And this is why when you look at these antinatalist philosophies and terrorists,
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they so frequently go after the youngest individuals because they see them as the most pure. And because
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they see death brought to you by another person as the highest positive thing you can do for someone
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else, it is maximally good to kill a maximum number of youngest people. That's why this guy-
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Right. Because you can save them from the most suffering. Like they still have maybe 90,
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more than 100 years of suffering ahead of them versus someone who's 30, you know, you've already
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lost. Like there's so much suffering, you know, like, yeah, in terms of let's be logical about this.
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But he is, and I just want to say in his manifesto, he explicitly links to alleged YouTube transcripts
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of the Sandy Hook killer. And in those YouTube videos, the Sandy Hook killer explicitly refers to
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FL-ism and is very familiar with the concept. And this is back in 2011. So this also shows you how long
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the concept of antinatalism and FL-ism have been around as well, which I think is important.
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Yeah. Well, and for people who aren't familiar with the Christchurch shooter, he wrote a long
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manifesto where he was antinatalist for a different reason. He was of the environmentalist antinatalist
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camp that thought that there were just too many humans. And specifically, he didn't like that certain
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But I think a lot of it was because he thought that those ethnic groups still had birth rates that were
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too high. Yeah, he didn't. He wasn't like a, like, black people are inferior person. He was a black.
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It was like they're having too many babies. No, it was specifically Muslim people are having too
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many babies. It was a mosque shooting. But yeah, I mean, for him, it was too many people. But actually,
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Malcolm, they're super connected because Guy Edward Bartkus, that's most recent terrorist,
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is among other things, an abolitionist vegan. An abolitionist vegan, it's like, that's someone
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who's, you know, for animal rights and everything. But to the extent that even animal welfare is
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considered not good enough or evil by them, because that just normalizes the concept of human
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enslavement of animals. And abolitionist vegans are those who, you know, no pets, no use of animals in
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any way. Like, we do not touch animals. These are the type of PETA members who, like, kidnapped that
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woman's dog and euthanized it. Yes, because dog ownership is also subjugation of animals and enslavement
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of animals. And it's better that these things are dead. So before we get to these concepts, if you're
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like a sane person and you're listening to this, you're like, wow, these people are cartoonishly evil.
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And it is, yes, by any normal or, like, objective moral framework, these people are cartoonishly evil.
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And we've mentioned this before. If you look at antinatalists, they've been studied by a number
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of studies, specifically a pivotal study, What's Up With Antinatalists, an observational study on
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their relationships between dark triad personality streets and antinatalist views. Schrodinger,
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2021, found strong associations between Machiavellianism, psychopathy, and antinatalist
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views, with depression acting both independently and as a mediator. This study widened the scope of dark
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triad research previously linked to socially aversive moral judgments to include antinatalism.
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And then they did a follow-up study to this, which replicated it. There was also a study,
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SciPost, in 2022, dark triad personality traits are more common among those who believe procreation
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is morally wrong. Again, narcissism, Machiavellianism, and psychopathy. Then you have an OSF, that's an
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open science framework, dark triad and antinatalism from February 2020, which again found this
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connection. All right, so I agree with you, and we can go into stuff about this kid's
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upbringing and background that indicate that he is... Well, he didn't have a father in the picture,
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which I think is a really big thing here. Yes, he was... And he birthed out his house once before.
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Yes, playing with matches, but he also, according to his father, who he'd been estranged from for 10
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years, really enjoyed building incendiary devices, which his father claimed were harmless, but also this
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kid apparently playing with matches accidentally burned down their house. Whoops. So he also
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describes himself, along with someone else that was close to him named Sophie, who we can also talk
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about, described himself as having borderline personality disorder. So one, he didn't think
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it was a disorder because he gave it scare quotes, but my understanding of borderline personality disorder
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is basically your cunt. Like, you are just a very difficult, unpleasant person who acts out
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and externalizes a lot. You're a pathological bastard. Yeah. So like, this is clearly someone
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who does have behavioral problems. Borderline personality disorder, it's characterized by
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tremendous impulsivity, radical confusion of identity, and then this pattern of idealization of
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people with whom the person afflicted with the disorder is associating with radical idealization
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of those people and then radical devaluation of them. And then there's another theme that sort of
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weaves along with it, which is the proclivity of people with borderline personality disorder to
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presume that they will be abandoned and then to act in a manner that makes such abandonment virtually
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certain. However, I think that there's a very strong argument that anti-natalism is growing
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and anti-natalism is a problem because we celebrate performative utilitarianism and goodness and empathy.
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And, and let's be clear, you know, he is, he is a vegan. He believes that the most important thing
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is eliminating suffering. And he points out in his written manifesto that he is, though he doesn't
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believe in God, he does believe that there is objective good in the universe, and that that
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objective good is minimizing suffering, which is definitely consistent with, for example, the
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anti-natalism espoused by anti-natalist influencers like Lawrence Anton, who we debated in London,
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who also agrees that like, very passionately, there is a thing that matters, and it is eliminating
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suffering, which basically means eliminating sentience, which we would say is a great evil.
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But let's just, to be clear, he explicitly says in his manifesto, our view is the opposite of
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nihilism. No, we don't believe in God. But yes, we do very, very, very passionately believe in this
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purpose. And this is, I think, what drives them to a certain extent to engage in acts of terror
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instead of just offing themselves, because they are very zealous in this belief, which makes them
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dangerous. Like, it's one thing to be nihilistic. I'm like, oh, I don't care about anything.
00:11:00.580
Everything's horrible. I think one thing you'll find with anti-natalism is, and you see this
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repeatedly when people get involved with anti-natalist community or ideas, is that anti-natalism
00:11:09.240
drives depression. It's not the other way around. I do not think it's that depressed people are more
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likely to become anti-natalists. I think it's, and you see this in this guy's writings, he was
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talking about how he first heard about this idea, and it didn't really, it seemed stupid to him at
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first, and then he began to engage with it and think about it more. And he talks about how as he
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ruminated about it more, he became more and more depressed. And it seems that he probably was
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infected with this idea by this girl, Sophie. So this was not his girlfriend. Shortly before
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he ended up doing this, this girl had had her boyfriend, had asked her boyfriend to shoot her
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in her sleep. Now her boyfriend's in jail for murder, which is one of these things where it's
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like, hold on, you were going to kill yourself anyway. Why couldn't you have just taken the role
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of the boyfriend? Like if you were actually a moral person, why don't you murder Sophie in her
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sleep? And then you murder yourself. You don't need to bring other people into this. For people
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who are so obsessed with consent, what's really interesting is him going out and attempting to
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murder innocent people. He cared so little about the consent of others. And you talk about him
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building incendiary devices and stuff like this. This was not a competent person, mind you. This is
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somebody who, for example, tried to live stream the attack and the live stream didn't work. And
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you know, they just, in a number of areas, things just didn't work or it was clear. He did, he said
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one of the main reasons he did this attack is because he was frustrated that conversations about
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effilism were so heavily being censored on the internet websites. The direct result of this attack
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was effilism being taken down on Reddit and other, and all of the subreddits he linked to being taken
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down. But actually, I want to highlight, I want to highlight that thing that he pointed out that he
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felt that for years, antinatalism and effilism were being censored online and that he was having an
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increasingly difficult time encountering communities that were discussing this. And I think that's
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important to highlight. He said, for example, he believed that Elon Musk had banned the term
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antinatalism from X as one example, despite this. So despite what may be, and this is alleged,
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I haven't necessarily tested it out. Obviously there's more that's been taken down now because
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of this action, but allegedly there is censorship of these concepts online. And yet, if you look at
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Google trends, though, for example, the pro-life movement that we're talking about, like people who
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are against abortion and antinatalism as a topic, if you look at Google trends, pro-life used to be
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really, really big in the past. And then it has, it has actually gone down quite a bit. And now at
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this moment, at least they're basically neck and neck. And pro-natalism and antinatalism are also
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incredibly close as concepts. Pro-natalism has, if you look at Google trends, pro-natalism has people
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like us, people like Elon Musk, a bunch of other advocates actively engaging with the media, pushing
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this concept, et cetera, et cetera. There aren't really any very public antinatalist advocates,
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like not that much. And they're certainly not very good at engaging with the media,
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at least as effective as we are. And the media isn't as interested in engaging with them.
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Plus apparently they're experiencing rampant online censorship. Despite this, we're seeing similar
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levels of search volume. Do you understand what this means? Like this implies to me that there's
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actually a much higher level of, of inherent cultural interest in antinatalist beliefs than
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the internet would reflect. Well, no, I, I agree with this. I think that, that antinatalism is the
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answer for your standard woke urban monoculture person. Yeah. When you point out that the way you
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structured your life is not actually virtuous and is incredibly selfish and you're not paying into the
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future, the debt you owe the past. And a lot of social services are going to collapse soon because of
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your selfishness and you're victimizing people from third world countries to pay for your selfishness.
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And then they're like, I need a philosophy that makes me not the bad guy. And so this is their
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answer. Moreover, it's a philosophy that if you watch our video on like pessimists and doomerism and how
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it's psychologically protective, it is an incredibly psychologically protective movement because it
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allows you to always just be that pessimistic person in a group. When somebody else is excited for a
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thing or happy to do a thing, if you come in and you talk down to them, or you look down on them,
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this is incredibly, you, you look both to yourself and to other people in the room,
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like the more mature person, like the person who has control of the conversation.
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Oh yeah, you look sophisticated. You look erudite. You look dispassionate. And yeah.
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You know, like the, the French philosophy guy, beatnik. Some people think the beatnik is merely
00:16:00.220
a bum with sunglasses, but he is more than that. Though not much. Beatniks hang out in unemployment
00:16:06.300
lines, health food stores, but most of all in coffee houses. The beatnik is often fond of
00:16:12.480
reading poetry to jazz. Thusly, Mary had a swinging lamb. He followed her to school. She hocked his
00:16:20.740
wool for a bongo drum and man, that lamb was cool. Thank you, Mr. North. Right. You know,
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and it's, it's, I get it, right? Like I see why all of this is psychologically protective and why it is
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so desirable to people who care so much about the ways that other people see them rather than
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actually trying to do good. And as I pointed out with this guy, even by his own moral framework,
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he died a martyr to our cause, to the pronatalist cause. His death will be useful to us in terms of
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further restricting antinatalist conversation online and effilist conversation online. As to why
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we would do that generally in the past, I was like, Oh, they seem like, well reasoned like nerds
00:17:03.220
or whatever. Like we can engage them with debate. But what I've seen increasingly is the amount of
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depression that is downstream of this mindset, the amount of mental anguish completely unnecessary
00:17:13.700
that is downstream of this. And the amount of terrorism we're seeing from this, especially when
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you give him that people like our family will likely would be targets for terrorism like this.
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You know, when he talks about like the pro-lifers, like who's, you know, and hating IVF people,
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you know, he's talking about people like us. Like I, you know, I think a lot of these people have
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individuals like us in their minds when they are thinking about this type of stuff. And that is
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horrifying when I see something like, because now, you know, every day since then, I have been
00:17:44.080
increasingly worried about the threats that individuals like this pose to our family. You know,
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that Sandy Hook shooter was able to convince himself that he is doing a favor to children
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by killing. You know, this is a belief that these people can build about individuals like us. And so,
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you know, I feel that in the past while I was like, okay, any conversation, whatever online,
00:18:08.060
it actually probably just due to the one negative memetic weight of this ideology, there probably are
00:18:16.460
positive externalities to restricting conversation around it. Especially when you look at its propensity
00:18:23.160
to draw people with, you know, Machiavellian and psychopathic tendencies as to why it draws people
00:18:29.000
like that before we get into like the arguments against it. I think the core reason is, is it
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to, to believe this philosophy. It's fundamentally people who are angry that they were brought into the
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world and they don't feel like they had consent in that decision. And so they want to deny other
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individuals just so that other people who are like them, because they only seem to be able to emulate
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people who are like them. And I can emulate people like them. You're like, okay, it's sad. And he
00:18:53.860
complained a lot about the right to die and it not easy to take his own life in California. And I was
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like, but it's just so ironic that the one thing he could have done then was help Sophie, who was his
00:19:04.160
friend who died before him die. Right. But obviously big hypocrite, everything like this, but the point I'm
00:19:11.340
making here, right. Is okay. I'll agree with them on this right to die stuff. I'll agree with them
00:19:15.520
that it should be easier, but there are ways to unalive yourself. Right. And he was real aware of
00:19:20.380
them. And he mentioned three of them. There are his manifesto. If people decide to not bring you into
00:19:27.720
this world to cause yourself to be brought into this world. And they're like, well, the extent of
00:19:32.200
the people who aren't brought into this world don't matter. And I'm like, why don't they matter?
00:19:38.020
Like there is a world in which I wasn't brought into existence. Yeah. And you're super not okay
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with that. And I'm super not okay with the world in which I wasn't brought into existence.
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By the time my parents found out it was too late. Somebody like walked up and forcibly sterilized
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you before you had our kids, right? Like those kids wouldn't exist. The humans who I interact with
00:19:58.940
and love and hug and, and I'm excited to see how the ways they're going to change the future
00:20:03.560
wouldn't exist. If you did that, you denied their right to choose whether or not they exist.
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And a person's inability to see that when they make a decision that removes another potential
00:20:18.520
person's agency, that that is just as bad as in saying, Oh, somebody brought me into the world
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without consent. It's, it's because of the psychopathy. It's because of this extreme level
00:20:29.040
of Machiavellianism that they cannot emphasize with effect. And this is one of the things was
00:20:33.080
their movement is, is they know, like all of them know that the vast, vast majority of humanity
00:20:38.180
prefers existing. They like being alive and they want to exist and they refuse to attempt to emulate
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these individuals worse for them than this. And this sort of like actual Thanos mindset that they
00:20:50.920
have, right? Worst than that for them is that when you look at what people say gave their life a
00:20:58.440
meaning on their deathbed, if you look at like, to me, I think great artistic depictions around
00:21:04.960
like a good life, you're looking at like the end of gladiator when he dies and, you know,
00:21:10.320
he sees his family and the kid and his hands on the grain, or you look at the end of grandma
00:21:16.020
and grandpa turned young again, that always tears me up and I'll, I'll, I'll put these here.
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but you look at these none of these are about how happy these people were in their lives
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none of these are about oh my god i'm really glad for you know how many times i orgasmed
00:23:13.760
i'm really glad for all of the times i watched a movie that i really enjoyed
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it's about and these are things that these people can't even begin to understand
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because the urban monocultural mimetic virus has so untethered them from any of the things
00:24:01.080
that ever historically gave life a value that the only thing that's left to them within this
00:24:07.240
shallow framing is pure hedonism pure pleasure and pain and as we've pointed out in the past
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these people are the human equivalent of a paperclip maximizer i don't know i think it's somewhat worse
00:24:19.600
than that because it doesn't seem that guy or his friend sophie were really they weren't focused on
00:24:27.500
on trying to pursue pleasure so calling them hedonists i think isn't even that like they
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they really if any if they indulged in anything it was they indulged in their suffering and in the
00:24:37.160
suffering of the world even to an artificial extent i i agree with that but i think what you're missing
00:24:42.400
is what humans seek more than pure pleasure which is another interesting thing if you're even just
00:24:47.440
talking about purely baked in human drives is self-validation and they engaged in this
00:24:53.540
flagellation to create an image of themselves that they saw as valuable within the communities they
00:25:00.080
engaged in and that they could assign as virtuous instead of looking for actual virtue they were
00:25:06.280
trying to paint a picture of a virtuous person through this this self-flagellation and and if
00:25:12.640
you listen to his long thing he keeps talking about oh i experience pain in life oh i experience pain in
00:25:18.120
life and imagine the level of privilege you have to grow up in to expect from life a life without
00:25:26.940
suffering like that is i wouldn't even like we've you know but he doesn't he doesn't and and one of
00:25:32.100
the one of the things that i just don't understand he kept saying life is a zero sum game and no one
00:25:39.060
wins and i'm like one like if it's zero sum someone's winning and i don't think he actually
00:25:43.580
understands what zero sum means he even he didn't seem to understand what he was like did i say that
00:25:47.900
right i hope i said that right i don't so when it hold on definition time zero sum means a game
00:25:53.880
in which you can only win by hurting somebody else yeah like there's there's a limited resource like
00:25:59.280
there's three points and if i take two points then you don't have those two points but i i literally
00:26:04.200
don't think that's what he thought because he thought everyone loses so like i mean if life were
00:26:08.240
a zero sum game then like good for the winners you know by the way just just for clarification
00:26:12.880
life is literally quite the opposite of a zero sum game so true and that's the thing i really don't
00:26:17.820
think he knew what he was saying pleasure and satisfaction ends up giving somebody else pleasure
00:26:23.420
and satisfaction yes whether we are talking about sex or being a good parent for your kids or creating
00:26:29.320
a good book or movie or creating a good video game or you know everything even happiness is infectious
00:26:36.520
when you're surrounded by depressed people you tend to get more depressed when you're surrounded by
00:26:40.140
happy people i think you get more happy on average even consider the creation of this show that
00:26:46.440
you're listening to now when i create an episode that a lot of people like and find enriching and make
00:26:51.360
their lives better i feel happy i get positive emotional response from that when i create an episode
00:26:58.360
that does the opposite i get a negative emotional response that is literally the antithesis of a zero
00:27:06.040
sum game yeah yeah and i i 100 hear you there but the point i was making earlier is the things that
00:27:14.000
cause a human being suffering are just the things that our ancestors if they experienced this sort of
00:27:21.460
negative emotional stimuli in response to certain environmental factors caused them to have more
00:27:26.760
surviving offspring this is their sort of hard coding if you say is that the thing of core value in the
00:27:33.220
universe the thing that led to our ancestors having more surviving offspring i'm like very obviously not
00:27:39.580
like and and it's this is why i call him a paperclip maximizer to an extent in at least in regards to
00:27:45.480
the suffering emotion in regards to his logic is that you know he would say to us well you wouldn't
00:27:51.040
like it if i forced you to suffer this is the same way of like a group of paperclip maximizing robots
00:27:56.040
saying to another one well you wouldn't like it if i stopped you from making paperclips and it would be
00:27:59.860
like well yeah i mean obviously but what was on about him actually is that he he wasn't even arguing
00:28:05.640
that per se he he literally resented anyone trying to make his life nice for example he talked about
00:28:13.000
how annoying it was when friends would try to get him to go to a concert with him and get it force him
00:28:18.220
to have fun because it subverts his his his self-perception of this suffering individual that was what
00:28:25.800
was core to him above all else and this is why i think that epilist and antinatalist communities are so
00:28:32.240
toxic at the end of the day is because if you are a happy or chipper person within these communities
00:28:38.960
you end up being attacked or low status within these communities you need to cultivate to work
00:28:46.380
your way up within these status hierarchies in a an incredibly pessimistic view of reality
00:28:52.700
which he represents in in a big way and we're going to do another episode where i'm going to
00:28:58.860
contrast to animes that i think do a good job of sort of representing different ways of seeing
00:29:03.600
things one is chinubyu about this girl who pretends that she has magical powers as sort of a coping
00:29:10.160
mechanism around her father dying and she's living a really terrible life
00:29:43.280
and then another what a moat around a girl who is desperate from validation for other people and
00:30:04.700
i had a totally normal conversation with someone
00:30:08.180
she changed too much is this even the same person
00:30:12.040
why did she come to me eat a mini skirt is she trying to seduce me
00:30:28.080
is that some sort of dirty joke what's going on
00:30:30.700
and while the girl in what a moat objectively had the better life than the girl from chinubyu
00:30:44.180
the girl from chinubyu ends up living a much better life
00:30:47.080
because even when life is hard what she understands fundamentally is she can recontextualize
00:30:54.160
all of the things in her life which recontextualizes the emotions that she is getting from those things
00:31:04.940
well this is why we like the adams family so much too
00:31:08.620
she recognizes that she can choose whose validation she seeks
00:31:14.560
she doesn't need to seek it from just everyone or from toxic communities
00:31:18.560
and if you seek the validation of toxic communities
00:31:24.660
whatever you want to say soul or anything like that
00:31:27.320
until you're this shadow of a human like this individual had become
00:31:31.440
i do not think that he was a objectively stupid person
00:31:35.380
i think that he was somebody whose mind had been so ravaged
00:31:39.360
by this sort of mindset that he was unable to logically think anymore
00:31:44.940
that he thought that he could increase the visibility of ethelism
00:31:48.460
by doing something that would cause all the ethelist communities to be shut down
00:31:55.600
and i i know if ethelists are like oh how could you say to my earlier argument
00:31:59.280
how could you say somebody who hasn't been brought into the world yet
00:32:04.780
and it's like well when does the consent right start right
00:32:07.400
like you you clearly you're drawing some sort of arbitrary line
00:32:10.840
in the same way that people who believe that life begins at conception do
00:32:13.200
which obviously we're very against you can see any of our episodes on that
00:32:16.120
where you're saying we think that life begins basically before conception
00:32:19.440
if you talk someone out to having a kid or you you prevent them from having a kid
00:32:23.340
you have ended the lives and the choice to be alive of their potential kids in the future
00:32:27.580
i think that that's the only morally consistent way that you can view this
00:32:30.460
because otherwise you're dealing with an arbitrary barrier where life exists
00:32:34.580
and life doesn't exist if you look at for example david benatar's writings
00:32:37.760
he believes people have a moral mandate to abortion until consciousness
00:32:41.020
so it's not that they believe that life begins at conception
00:32:42.940
they believe that there's some stage at human embryonic development
00:32:46.700
where they have consciousness and now they have an absolute right to continue existing
00:32:50.220
so somewhere a little after at or after week 12 then
00:32:56.860
and this is why i actually think that ephilism is more logically consistent than generic antinatalism
00:33:02.380
generic antinatalism is just the version of ephilism
00:33:06.220
where they do make this arbitrary distinction and they say okay now all lives after this point matter
00:33:10.920
all lives before this point don't matter and i'm like why are you making this arbitrary distinction
00:33:15.720
why can't you just say all potential lives matter um and and so i think it's one of the things where
00:33:22.160
and i think any rational person can immediately see this if they're thinking clearly
00:33:26.540
you're just using like a trick of philosophy if you say well my kid's life didn't matter before they were conceived
00:33:32.920
my kid's life didn't matter before they developed consciousness
00:33:35.680
it's like why if they were going to matter within a certain timeline with certain decisions
00:33:40.160
like we can get into like all of the specific arguments about the environment or stuff like that
00:33:43.600
i don't care about this i think that that's like the one thing that just like immediately breaks their argument
00:33:51.200
rather than actually thinking through the consequences of their actions
00:33:54.880
well there's one area where i vehemently agree with him and i i agree that
00:34:01.420
these kinds of communities online are you know should should be regarded and treated and
00:34:08.620
censored as much as i would prefer a world with lots of free speech the same way that any
00:34:13.940
any group advocating for some form of genocide should be censored i think a much more meaningful
00:34:21.100
but also much more difficult to pursue policy change is right to die and that is a huge thing
00:34:29.280
that this guy rants again about in his in his spoken manifesto
00:34:33.460
and that clearly he and his friend dealt with as an issue
00:34:37.660
he points out that people who've researched mass shootings have found that
00:34:42.840
typically precipitating events for these mass shootings were
00:34:47.180
desired suicides or botched attempts to end their own lives he even goes through this
00:34:54.280
yeah he goes through this and he says we need to have a right to die with dignity
00:34:59.060
and i 100 agree i i do think that as much as is a an unborn person cannot give consent
00:35:07.020
to live or not live you shouldn't remove the consent or ability of an existing person
00:35:14.420
of sufficient age and cognitive capacity to choose to end their lives and i do think that
00:35:19.600
it should be not as difficult as it is now and he you know he pointed out that for example like
00:35:24.300
holding a gun to your head and pulling the trigger is scary and like it's it's just hard for a lot of
00:35:28.800
people to get past that even if they really want it and i i hear that i mean when my mom was
00:35:33.940
terminally ill i mean this this wouldn't have happened had he had had the right to die 100 and that's
00:35:39.840
the thing is like i think antinatalists believe and i think truly i mean based on culture in some
00:35:47.200
cases just based on having you know very severe untreated or maybe even unsuccessfully treated
00:35:52.000
clinical depression really just don't want to live anymore they absolutely should have the right to die
00:35:57.820
and if they had that easy right the right to die is a bigger issue here if you're looking at
00:36:02.660
demographic collapse as well because we're going to have an increasing number of old people
00:36:06.900
who you know if you look at the last few years of somebody's life that's when they spend like the
00:36:11.920
majority of the money that that would be spent on them in medical costs yeah your very end of life
00:36:17.200
care is just astronomically expensive yeah which is why canada's maid program is very smart yeah you
00:36:24.580
can look at our thing of is it okay for canada to be killing sad homeless people and we did an
00:36:29.420
episode on this where we argue about this pretty extensively and i think it's just something that
00:36:32.880
anyone who's being practical is eventually going to be like
00:36:34.700
yeah we need to stop restricting this and at the end of the day if you're like well but then they
00:36:39.460
go straight to hell or they're defying god look the people who are doing this don't believe in
00:36:43.120
in god anyway like exactly yeah you know so they're not there believe this is wrong are not going to do
00:36:48.780
it and the people who you shouldn't you shouldn't impose your culture on other people it's just wrong
00:36:53.700
yeah so so i will agree with him on that point all this violence could this violence could have been
00:37:00.980
avoided it's not fair his violence his violence could have been avoided but i but i think his
00:37:06.880
violence also could have been avoided if these communities access to them was more restricted
00:37:12.340
like i don't see anything yeah there's like literally zero positive externality and i think
00:37:17.840
that websites that host communities like this like reddit and stuff like that need to be further
00:37:22.140
pressured it is obviously beyond the pale for them to have a a group that says we need to sterilize
00:37:29.340
all black people or we need to sterilize all jews why is it not equally bad to have a group that says
00:37:35.580
we need to sterilize all people yeah it should be like multiplicatively worse yeah for them to be
00:37:41.620
hosting these groups especially when these groups seem to be motivating as much terrorism as these
00:37:47.280
other groups yeah and it's just oh well and worse is these people's terrorism always targets like
00:37:52.620
children and young people that's the other thing about it if they have like a uniquely evil form of
00:37:58.320
terrorism that is completely downstream and you see this in this one guy's speech is that he didn't
00:38:04.100
want to in the same way the girl who got her boyfriend to kill her he didn't want to be responsible for
00:38:08.440
his own death all of the anger that you see was in the effilis community can fundamentally be boiled down
00:38:15.580
to i hate that i am burdened i i go around telling everyone i would rather be dead and i hate that i am
00:38:23.040
burdened was having to follow through what i am going around telling everyone for status i hate
00:38:28.660
that that responsibility is on me why couldn't somebody else have burdened that responsibility
00:38:34.580
my parents or something like that and i'm willing to deny thousands of other people who would want to
00:38:39.820
live the right to exist just so other people who might be in my position don't end up in that position
00:38:46.540
and to me that's just like what like the the level of narcissism required to have that perspective
00:38:52.840
but it is within ebony effilis writing you will always see it as the core thing that is leading to
00:38:59.140
this because the the easy answer to all this is well you should just take your own life then right like
00:39:04.520
you have a choice to not exist but if i don't bring my kid into the world they don't get the choice to
00:39:09.900
exist you always have a choice and this is fundamentally why the effilis ideology why you see terrorism from
00:39:16.220
them and not from pronatalists because pronatalism despite what our detractors will tell you is
00:39:20.800
always every major pronatalist i know is like a voluntary pronatalist they believe they're strongly
00:39:25.580
against coercion it's very ironic how much he and other um antinatalist terrorists talk about
00:39:33.800
coercion being evil and yet they their entire philosophy is based around coercion because effilism can
00:39:40.540
only work if they can enforce their views on other people if they can enforce people who would
00:39:47.580
otherwise choose to have kids to stop having kids and just to trim something really quick again
00:39:52.980
pronatalists are not pro-lifers there are some pro-lifers who call themselves pronatals but when
00:39:57.640
we talk about when i'm talking about pro-life here i'm talking about anti-abortion people
00:40:00.980
anti-abortion people are often fighting for policies that do remove consent from people
00:40:05.620
that i agree but every major pronatalist i know like every single leader in the movement is pro
00:40:12.240
abortion was in you know limited time spans like very early pregnancy when it's clear that there's
00:40:17.320
no nervous system every major pronatalist advocate i know is is pro never coercing anyone to have kids
00:40:24.200
we are very happy that dinks are leaving the gene pool we are very happy that people like this guy
00:40:28.620
are leaving the the culture and gene pool and you know i think that cultures that and people who
00:40:33.980
like being alive and want more people like them to be alive in the future should be the ones who
00:40:38.160
populate the future and and that's why we as a movement you know do so much to make it easier for
00:40:44.240
people who already want to have lots of kids to have more kids because the pronatalist movement can
00:40:49.420
function without coercion because all we care about is making it easier for the people who want to exist
00:40:54.200
in the future to exist in the future the anti-natalist and epilist movement are fundamentally they require
00:41:01.620
coercion to work they require removing the consent of others to work they remind require removing the
00:41:07.140
consent of animals to work and i think that that is is fundamentally why at the end of the day they
00:41:13.980
lead to terrorism and pronatalism never does which is just fascinating to me that that we happen to live
00:41:22.620
in a time where the people we are fighting against are so fundamentally evil they are and everybody keeps
00:41:28.220
saying this when they read his they're like he's like a caricature from like a jrpg novel like as
00:41:32.540
magold was saying this uh or jrpg game and then leaflet was like yes he absolutely is in terms of
00:41:38.360
his belief system and it's it's it's it's true like these individuals seem to lack the ability to take a
00:41:46.600
few steps back and be like i want to remove the vast majority of humanity's right to consent and i want
00:41:52.820
to eradicate all living things which at the very least is going to involve removing the consent of
00:41:57.540
because a lot of things you destroy aren't humans and things aren't humans always want to survive
00:42:03.120
there there is not really there there are yeah but they just say that there's consciousness being
00:42:09.280
subjugated to the coercive evil will of dna and i can't remember if it was the sandy hook terrorist who
00:42:16.720
said something like this in the transcript the alleged transcript that this guy shared or if it was this
00:42:21.860
guy but definitely their belief is we are the slaves of dna that is hypnotizing us into wanting to survive
00:42:31.100
and reproduce and we have to break the cycle this guy who who committed the most recent act of terror
00:42:37.880
again abolitionist vegan thinks that you know everyone's suffering and but also like
00:42:43.680
he he acknowledges that nature is even more brutal than like industrial farming and agriculture animals
00:42:53.200
sterilize all animals yeah so like yeah it's not just humans it's it's everything it's it's the end of
00:42:58.880
all life people are dangerous we can see this now like this exists in public like these people are
00:43:03.040
dangerous well and again they're dangerous because they are zealots because this isn't this isn't about
00:43:08.200
ennui this isn't about depression and leaning back it is saying i very strongly believe that any negative
00:43:15.100
experience is all that matters no positive experience by the way the reason why you need to take this
00:43:21.660
perspective the reason why you can't believe that even somebody who experiences more positive emotions
00:43:26.860
than negative emotions is living a life of value is because if you took a moment to think about this if you
00:43:32.520
were somebody like him and you looked at the speed of ai advancement you look at its ability to edit genes
00:43:37.100
you would be like hey humanity is maybe a hundred years away from removing suffering altogether from
00:43:42.640
the species they were so having ai simulated environments for anyone who wants them from
00:43:46.920
having you know the ability to remove pain from our genes the ability to remove you know re-edit
00:43:52.660
ourselves i think what we're going to find is that most people who survive and the cultures that
00:43:56.940
survive don't remove that stuff because they see it as something of fundamental value but he you know
00:44:02.080
lacks the intellectual maturity to see that so even from his perspective he thought well the vast majority of
00:44:06.820
people would remove all of this from themselves if they could we are close to that we are so much
00:44:12.460
suffering has been gone through in the great cycle of history that we are almost to a point where now
00:44:18.000
we can begin to start piling on the scale in the opposite direction well they're trying to prevent us
00:44:23.260
from reaching that turning point and it's not even that they're not aware of this reality his friend
00:44:28.040
sophie on tiktok literally has a post responding to this responding to the statement this is the best time to be
00:44:33.760
alive and she has the whole rant against it so i don't think this is even a matter of ignorance
00:44:38.320
did you find it or like do you i i didn't even listen to the whole thing because she's just very
00:44:42.120
annoying and the audio is bad but yeah she they're aware of this argument they don't buy it and i don't
00:44:48.700
know if it's it's willful refusal to engage with the situation no it's because this one drop of pain
00:44:54.060
matters more than infinity drops of of pleasure well and we clarified this with the much more on much
00:45:00.220
less unhinged lawrence anton who's a prominent anti-natalist advocate in the uk um who is is very
00:45:07.980
kind also vegan like very empathetic more more socially acceptable and and and all that very nice
00:45:15.000
but he we asked him okay so there's one planet that has nothing but like thriving life like absolutely
00:45:23.940
everyone is is having an amazing perfect existence and then maybe one person suffered for like a year
00:45:31.260
and then there's another planet that is just completely devoid of life it is a rock yeah which
00:45:36.600
planet would you rather have be the only planet in existence and he chooses the rock because there
00:45:41.920
is one person who like suffered for a year on the planet full of otherwise 100% flourishing
00:45:47.980
incredibly happy people and billions of them so and i hope that anyone like if you're beginning to
00:45:53.380
engage with this ideology you can immediately see how comical that is that that does not make sense
00:45:58.920
but but again this is this is religious zealotry without a belief in god this is i care about one
00:46:06.780
thing and it is the complete elimination of suffering i think you know once someone chooses that that's
00:46:12.360
their objective function they're they're gonna there's really no argument that you can make
00:46:18.060
to convince them that they're wrong and that suffering isn't that important in in a larger
00:46:28.680
scheme of things yeah they've chosen i mean like to in the end as we i mean even if you assume that
00:46:35.600
their arguments are right right you know at least the net suffering versus net pleasure argument
00:46:40.120
their actions are still wrong because eventually humanity will get to a point like very soon we can
00:46:45.340
already see the other end of this timeline right and and and that's if you assume their whole
00:46:50.840
suffering argument and and they should be most pro people like us because we are you know in the eyes
00:46:56.780
of other conservatives seen as transhumanists and i don't identify the transhumanists but i believe we
00:47:00.320
have a moral mandate to intergenerational improvement and that includes a genetic and technological
00:47:05.700
augmentation so like we are the branch of humanity most likely to see that future happen
00:47:10.840
but again we don't even see the world that way like if i could remove suffering for myself i would
00:47:16.480
like i might put caps on suffering i might be like okay it might make sense to mitigate it in extreme
00:47:20.860
circumstances with like my kids and stuff like that 100 but i i wouldn't remove it entirely because i
00:47:27.720
don't see it as the core boogeyman of all reality the core boogeyman of all reality is stagnation
00:47:33.760
not suffering suffering is what motivates us to not stagnate and in that way you know it's like
00:47:40.840
saying fire bad you know it's like well fire can burn you if you get too much of it but it is it's
00:47:46.600
like saying traffic lights are bad all right it's it's a signal suffering is a signal pleasure is a
00:47:52.040
signal signals are bad traffic signals are bad signals are bad because i don't like when a signal
00:47:56.280
says stop yeah that's really what it is yeah all it's like a child who's like all rules are bad like
00:48:02.560
because i don't like it when people tell me to say stop and we we need to have well they also
00:48:06.360
adam lanza the sandy hook killer like specifically what had that view he was extremely phobic of the
00:48:14.300
very concept of culture saw it as this form of subjugation or enslavement and especially
00:48:19.480
contextualized it along the lines of people um you know getting him in trouble and trying to force him
00:48:26.680
to live a certain way so this is this is a thing that many of them appear to have problems yeah so they
00:48:31.620
actually you see this with this other guy as well i don't want to go do these things that make other
00:48:35.400
people happy like i don't want to engage in something that could bring meaning to my life
00:48:38.960
and so i think what you're seeing here you might have pulled on something that i hadn't realized before
00:48:43.300
a lot of these anti-natalist and effelists hate culture as well they hate anything whether it's
00:48:49.340
cultural biological or even intellectual that puts constraints on their actions they're like i should
00:48:56.380
be able to do whatever i feel like whenever i want and feel pleasure in doing that thing yeah and and
00:49:01.240
adam lanza again the sandy hook killer in his alleged transcript of youtube videos that were
00:49:06.960
taken down but back from 2011 he he basically argues that children existed primarily to propagate the
00:49:13.260
values of the adults and culture that raised them and he hates culture so like you could see why he
00:49:18.960
targeted children in his act of terror because he's like these people are the victims and vehicles for
00:49:25.300
this thing that i hate or you could be viewed it as a source of sorrow and horror both to himself
00:49:30.360
and for all being subjected to it so yeah there's definitely something going on there and the same
00:49:35.460
thing is what a what a emotionally healthy person would say is is children exist to improve the culture
00:49:42.140
of adults that's why we get the benefit of old age and dying instead of living forever and that's why
00:49:48.100
most of the pronatalists i know are also anti-extreme life extension because you know children are in my
00:49:55.540
child as opposed to extreme life extension which is technologically in the cards of the near future
00:49:59.420
is my chance to say hey you know octavian here's everything i believe and now he without my prejudices
00:50:06.160
without my perspective can say okay well here's the parts of that i agree with here are the parts of
00:50:10.740
that i disagree with and and through that builds a world perspective that is superior to my own
00:50:16.340
and this is why i'm okay with with that and i think that's the way of emotionally healthy people
00:50:22.500
view kids is is kids get to pass judgment on their parents perspectives and that's what makes
00:50:29.660
it superior to a system where we just live forever and this is something where when this guy passed
00:50:34.500
judgment on his parents perspectives he's like well i don't think they're good and that's fine you
00:50:38.600
know if i i think it's good that we live in a world where if you try to raise your kids like in an
00:50:44.480
urban monoculture for example and they're like hey the culture you raised me with gave me no reason
00:50:49.360
to want to continue existing that's great just don't then attempt to remove the consent of others
00:50:54.360
like this is a decision that you're making for yourself and it's a decision that i advocate and
00:50:59.420
i'm okay with and so i almost wish there was a form of this anti-natalist philosophy that was just
00:51:04.740
focused on self-deletion instead of other deletion yeah in normalizing euthanasia opt-in euthanasia
00:51:12.580
yeah these people just need the izakai themselves like imagine this guy finds out that the buddhists
00:51:16.940
were right you know he's like no reincarnation you know and this is why i've often joked the first time
00:51:24.300
i said this to simone she got really mad at me because she was raised partially a buddhist and
00:51:27.120
she i've noticed people who westerners who have at one point considered themselves buddhists often have
00:51:32.860
a uniquely low understanding of what buddhists actually believe like like more so than almost anyone
00:51:38.160
else i've met and i was like well buddhists are basically just like anti-natalist philosophy on
00:51:42.580
steroids like they want to delete all existence they want to remove all thought and experience
00:51:49.000
and they view the horror of existence is reincarnation right like reincarnation it's something you're trying
00:51:55.100
to end the first time i mentioned this to you you were like you got all mad at me and then you did
00:51:58.480
this weird thing where like a few days later you're like you were arguing from my perspective and i was
00:52:03.020
like when did you change your mind at the end of that argument you were mad at me
00:52:06.300
a few days later you 100 believed me well what changed there i thought about it
00:52:11.960
okay sometimes truths aren't fun to hear and if you watch our stuff on like spiral versus
00:52:21.280
anti-spiral ideologies you should check out our track down this mark my words this drill will open
00:52:27.740
a hole in the universe and that hole will be a path for those behind us the dreams of those who have
00:52:34.080
fallen the hopes of those who will follow those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix
00:52:40.780
drilling a path towards tomorrow like how do techno puritans define good things like this
00:52:46.400
anti-natalist ideology and like the buddhism more broadly not all schools of buddhism but a lot of them
00:52:52.220
fall into this anti-natalist mindset right i'll fall into this anti-spiral mindset which i think is a
00:52:56.800
better judgment of bad than suffering and then you have the the obviously the spiral instead of the
00:53:03.580
anti-spiral all comes from current login which i think is a very good and tight description of
00:53:07.740
what good is any final thoughts simone or any other things you ran into about this guy
00:53:12.920
no i mean aside from that maybe he was radicalized by his friend sophie who he deeply admired he linked
00:53:20.780
to her social media pages he said that his assumption if he understood if he remembered correctly was
00:53:28.060
that if one of them died the other one would shortly follow so i feel like she absolutely
00:53:33.020
played a role in radicalizing him her online handle typically was vegan to natalist like vegan anti-natalist
00:53:41.160
and i love how they're fundamentally both in their death proved themselves to be fundamentally selfish
00:53:47.260
and self-centered people because she ruined a man's life in her selfish life by having her him shoot her in
00:53:53.200
her sleep she could have taken that responsibility on herself and this is what we regularly see within
00:53:57.960
this community is a refusal to take their responsibility themselves yeah so just i think
00:54:03.360
it's important to to point out the role that community does play in this that i i don't think
00:54:10.760
i mean one if he had been able to end his own life much more easily this would not have happened
00:54:15.480
and he could have more easily i mean it wouldn't have happened like even more easily than we have
00:54:20.740
today in our society but there were other options for him well i think one of the reasons why he did
00:54:27.760
what he did though was he wanted to raise awareness about we know he wanted to like an ant that's been
00:54:34.760
infected by a you know toxoplasmosis or what is it cordyceps virus cordyceps virus or fungus where
00:54:41.700
you know it eats their brains and it just wants to spread itself and after it's consumed everything
00:54:47.180
that's inside of them it drives them to go up a stalk of like grass so that a fungal growth can
00:54:53.120
grow from it to spread the spores as far as possible nothing of a host survives your friend
00:54:59.260
had a feeble mind it suffered greatly and gave in easily
00:55:04.600
this mimetic virus had destroyed this guy's mind and he decided to use his death to try to spread
00:55:14.160
the virus to as many other people as possible and fortunately again he died a martyr to our cause not
00:55:20.380
his own because his death has been able to shut down the spread of the virus because it had already
00:55:26.680
so spongified his own mind that he didn't somehow think beyond self-validation that this would cause
00:55:34.380
the topic to become more restricted in terms of a talking point and make us look like more of the
00:55:39.540
good guy in the public eye maybe i i do worry that he has raised awareness about i know i think we need
00:55:47.860
to raise awareness of it as a terrorist movement yeah but i think that people in the movement are kind
00:55:52.960
of like before the flism subreddit was shut down the top post after this happened was like oh is this
00:55:58.920
us i i know i loved it and a bunch of the comments were people being like well we don't hold these
00:56:04.300
beliefs and then the top voted comment under it was like yes we do like what are you talking about
00:56:08.480
yeah yeah we absolutely do yeah so yeah so that evident it worries me but yeah everyone be safe out
00:56:17.540
there please and be careful be safe out there be careful and we hope that you know as as we grow
00:56:25.460
this movement we can keep it you know we don't ever have our own terrorists to deal with which
00:56:29.440
fortunately we haven't yet and i don't i don't know how prenatalism could motivate terrorism because
00:56:34.460
it just like motivates a life of dedication to the future and in your children we both work and sleep
00:56:39.100
next to multiple firearms and other weapons we have all these different security systems in our house
00:56:46.900
like i would say that we've become more and more paranoid every single day yeah so that's not
00:56:52.100
great but we get a lot of death threats but we've got to do this you know no one else is well and now
00:57:03.120
you can see why right why people don't want to come out as prenatalists because there are very
00:57:10.920
well i mean i think that this these movements the anti-natalists and the effortless need to be
00:57:15.600
stigmatized in the same way that we would stigmatize a a racist who wanted to sterilize like black people
00:57:20.480
or an anti-semite who wanted to sterilize jews like or an anti-abortion activist who wanted to bomb
00:57:25.320
clinics yeah which is what most people thought he was when this first came out just like oh right no i
00:57:31.220
actually disagree with your thought there because they could say well you know you don't frame all the
00:57:36.180
anti-abortion activists this way just because of the most crazy people what i am framing them
00:57:40.720
negatively by is the beliefs that the mainstream of the movement holds which is mass sterilization
00:57:46.680
that is a mainstream view that is not an extremist view within the movement because they know even if
00:57:51.520
they convinced everyone if there was a few people who didn't agree with them and obviously most people
00:57:56.340
aren't going to agree with them because most people like being alive they can only win in the
00:57:59.480
end by forced sterilization i don't know lawrence anton was very clear i mean and i think
00:58:05.060
the the purest and actually most logically coherent members of the i don't know i disagree i think
00:58:12.460
extremely against removing consent and even these people who were were in favor of and who are
00:58:18.240
effilists and therefore are clearly for removing consent still talk about the evils of removing consent
00:58:25.120
all the time i think that the logically coherent element of anti-natalism not effilism is we need to
00:58:31.360
do this in a way where we convince everyone to not do this although that kind of gets more
00:58:37.620
complicated because they also want to sterilize animals but still i'm just trying to they know
00:58:43.980
better than the animals are just so stupid they just i'm trying to be terrible like people in africa
00:58:48.980
like if you if you read of like david benatar things about like poor starving people in africa
00:58:52.780
you know he's like well you know they're basically just too stupid to know they should hate their lives
00:58:57.280
um basically their argument okay my god you you can't understand how somebody with less than you
00:59:03.820
could be more satisfied with their life and this individual it doesn't appear that he'd ever worked
00:59:07.860
a way in his life from what i could see it doesn't appear like he he genuinely had one of the least
00:59:12.400
he appeared to be from like a middle class upper middle class family it didn't appear that he had
00:59:17.280
ever had any real suffering in his life other than growing up without a dad there
00:59:20.720
yeah i don't know anyway love you to death simone i love you too stay alive protect your kids
00:59:29.840
how's it doing being back from the cruise recording episodes again really good i so miss having our
00:59:39.820
talks and yeah i don't think people i don't know i wonder if other parents experience what we experience
00:59:46.700
when we talk around our kids when our kids start vehemently insisting that we must not talk
00:59:50.640
stop talking to each other yeah i wonder if that's just like me and my desperate desire for
00:59:55.080
attention this is gotta listen to me i have something to say
00:59:59.020
god forbid we have something to say to each other well no no that's not allowed and then they have
01:00:06.040
nothing to say yeah well i mean they they sort of they just want they just want to be the ones to
01:00:12.220
talk so they'll be like well and then the the rocks i have two rocks they get really shy the moment
01:00:17.740
you show them a bit of attention but they demand the attention the attention is not optional the
01:00:23.700
attention is mandatory so it's really nice to yeah with before our kids get home it's really lovely to