An Anthropology of the Manosphere (Featuring Sandman)
Episode Stats
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Summary
On this episode of the podcast, we are joined by Sandman MGTOW to discuss the history of the movement of men who have chosen to go their own way. Sandman has been involved in the movement since the early 2000s and has been a part of it since the very beginning. He is a man of many talents, but he is not only an intellectual, he is also a comedian, writer, and podcaster.
Transcript
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I had, I had dolls sent to me for free to review and post on my channel.
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And for a while I was promoting the technology.
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Like you get a workout before you work, get into bed.
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Like you're like ready to fall over before you be like,
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imagine changing positions on this thing three or four times you're out.
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You're like, it's like getting a full workout in the gym.
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We are very excited to be joined today by Sandman MGTOW,
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the preeminent MGTOW figure talking head, or I guess I should say faceless talking head.
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Representing the movement of men who've chosen to go their own way,
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Basically a lot of men have realized that they're getting a really raw deal in society.
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I'm not going to opt into traditional female relationships.
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And what I am excited to talk about on this podcast is the anthropology of MGTOW,
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And it can start when you started getting involved with it or where you saw who were the figures,
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What have been the major trials of the community?
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I am just very interested to see it as a cultural movement.
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So you had MGTOW 1.0, and that was around the early 2000s.
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And the idea was we were going to take masculinity and instill it in men,
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and we're going to take femininity and instill it in women.
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So it was more like back to tradition, but this is back in 2000.
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And so that didn't really go anywhere up until about 2008, 2009.
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And then a creator named Barbarossa showed up, and he made a video called,
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And he basically laid the foundations for MGTOW all the way from 2009, 10, 11, 12.
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Then another creator named Stardust was around back then.
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And then when I came in around mid to end of 2013, it was dying down.
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When I always look at an opportunity in any avenue, like in terms of economics or attention
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or whatever you want to do, I look at something that's something I want a lot of.
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I want something, but there's not enough people supplying that content.
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So before we go further on this, because I think you've already passed this in the timeline,
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So you've got, you get the MRAs, which are the men's rights activists.
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They were back up in like in the nineties, right?
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But every generation of men has a different movement at the center.
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So the MRAs were, let's say the second half of the boomers and the first half of Gen X.
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So if you go to an MRA conference, that's your demographic.
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Those are men that had relationships that were good for the most part.
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And they said, okay, we want these relationships.
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We want to continue to be married, but we just want to fix things.
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And we want things to go back to the way they were.
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So the MGTOWs came in and that was the second half of Gen X and the first half of the millennials.
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So I could see that I could understand the younger guys and understand the point of the older guys.
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And MGTOW was saying, look, we can't fix these problems.
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You've tried to fix them for the last 10, 15 years.
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What we have to do is fix these problems for the individual male.
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We have to make sure that the individual man has a solution for his own life.
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We can't change society, but you can change your own life.
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And, but also we have to understand MGTOW men had relationships.
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They just weren't very high quality relationships.
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So then after that, once that kind of passes, now you're in the age of the incel.
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So you're now talking about guys who haven't had any formative relationships with women.
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And so they're just, that's why kind of incel has moved forward and taken over.
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And it was originally that was called true force loneliness.
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So if you watch the original true force loneliness guys back in 2014, 15, they were angry and they
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So when people say the incels are violent, yes, the older incels, they were sex deprived.
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And they, for the most part, they were a lot more aggressive than the, the younger incels
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And I think a lot of that also has to do with the, with the testosterone levels.
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So because of that, you're starting to see men that are 18, 19, that are saying, I don't
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And I'm the fact that you have young males in their prime that are, have no sex drive
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So this is analogous to like the herbivore male movement in Japan.
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Herbivore men, like a lot of people said they're MGTOWs.
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A lot of people said they're incels, but they're more MGTOWs because they're choosing
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So then in the midst of all of this, you had the PUAs, the pickup artist community.
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And the pickup artist community is now what is referred to as the red pill movement, because
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they, I guess they just take the, the label for themselves.
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Now the problem with the, with MGTOW was on in November of 2018, the entire MGTOW community
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So what happened was once that happened, you can see the peak on YouTube search results.
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And then you see a decline from that point on, but all of the other communities were still
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So all of the other, so people started shifting.
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They said, I can't make money making MGTOW content.
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I'm going to make red pill pickup artist content.
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So they, they took all of the knowledge that they had and they started like shifting their
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Like I'm still one of the few hardcore content creators that managed to survive after all of
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But the majority of content creators, they were either like thrown off the platforms and
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now they exist in like all tech platforms or they just gave up.
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So you saw within six months, like 90% of the MGTOW content producers just disappear.
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And when I came in, I realized, okay, how do you create a movement?
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What you do is you make something that works an idea and you pass it out and you make money
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And then when other people see you doing this, they'll adopt the same idea and start promoting
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And so that, and why was MGTOW so threatening compared to everything else?
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It's because it's, it was effective because it was literally empowering individual males
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to build up their financial assets, to not give women attention, to, to basically live
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And so a lot of that is also been replaced by the Sigma like movement.
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But before you go further, one thing I want to clarify for our audience, how insane it
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is that the MGTOW movement was demonetized is imagine if you had a female, an equivalent
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female movement that was like, guys are horrible.
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Let's try to figure out how to live without men.
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And yeah, they had, they might have some misanduous undertones to them.
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People would have thrown, they'd be like, why can't women just not date?
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But all right, let's continue with the Sigma movement because I find them really interesting
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The Sigma grind set, like I would identify as a Sigma male because I'm constantly working,
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constantly producing, making money, blah, blah, blah.
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So there's this gap that happened in society when you get this existential crisis where a
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lot of guys are like saying, I'm not going to have a relationship.
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And then they just, I'm just going to work and work and work.
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And so that's allowed because that means the male is productive.
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MGTOW, on the other hand, it deprives women of attention.
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It deprives the state of, a lot of men that are going their way are not going to have children.
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There's all this knock-on effect that's affecting society.
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So that's why it's the most threatening one from an economic standpoint.
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Because if you're the elites and all of a sudden there's a group of men that are just hoarding their money and making a ton of money and not like paying it out, then you have competition.
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Those men can create new technologies and things.
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Because I'm actually not familiar with this distinction.
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So I think that's probably a good way to do it.
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Okay, so to be a Sigma male, you have to be outside of the hierarchy.
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When I was growing up, when I was in the ninth grade, I was being bullied.
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So I decided, okay, I'm going to go and I'm going to work out.
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And I spent literally two hours a day working out for a couple of years.
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But then what I noticed was I could express myself in any which way that I wanted.
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And people couldn't say, oh, you're gay or whatever.
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It's like you've seen the, what's the archetype of the Sigma?
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He's got that smirk look on his face where he's just, I don't care.
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So that's the thing you got to, the person who defined the Sigma male, I can't remember
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his name, but he goes through it and he breaks it down.
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Another aspect of Sigma males is that nobody likes them because they don't know what to
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They just, they like, you're not trying to like.
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There's nothing that they can hold hostage that gives them control.
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Because it's, if you're not part of the hierarchy, if you're not part of the hierarchy, which
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is pretty much my experience growing up, the hierarchy will try to drag you back in, you
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And the more you fight it, the more it wants to drag you in even more.
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It's like they'll fight to remain outside the hierarchy.
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Now, how is that different from just MGTOW in general?
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Because you were alluding to like Sigma males still like being, I think, more economically
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Is I actually think that you're looking at the question from two different angles.
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There was a period where there was like this fad within the manosphere online to talk about
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And like the red pill was really obsessed with alpha.
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And it makes sense that in reaction to that, men who were of this more Sigma mindset, which
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historically and anthropologically likely existed, would say that doesn't describe my
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So I think what you're missing is that the two communities might have a lot of overlaps,
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but they're not in competition with each other in the same way that like MGTOW and red pill
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may have been more of a, not opposing movements, but like definitely ideologically.
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You have to say P the pickup artists and the MGTOWs.
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I say though, like the red pill pickup, you'd have to define it because they're a red pickup.
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And I can define red pill if people are wondering, and you can tell me if this is wrong.
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I view the key distinction between them and the MGTOW is, is men and women are different.
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MGTOW said, and for that reason, we just shouldn't engage with the system.
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And red pill said, and for that reason, we should attempt to manipulate women to our advantage.
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And men saying, we're taking our ball, we're ending this game and we're going home.
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And all, but all of the other groups, the MRAs, the pickup artists, the incels, they all want
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And that's why they're monetized because they're still willing to cater to women's
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The MGTOW movement is actually ideologically very similar to the four nose movement in Korea,
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But it is very interesting as society begins to become systemically unfair, but it only makes
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sense for one group to just walk away with the ball.
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But then the system has to try to do whatever it can to make, you make the people who walk
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away, come back or make them make men think that there's no, that you, there is no option
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So if you try to erase MGTOW from the conversation, then people aren't going to get involved there.
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So they're not going to think that's an option.
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Like we've talked about how things have evolved under over time.
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Do you know what the next iteration is going to be called?
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Well, we spoke about this before, like the, the trans maxing groups, right?
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And that's in, so that's the next offshoot of the incels.
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And it's pissing off a lot of women as well, because a lot of guys, like I was predicting
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this four or five, six years ago, I said that guys would transition so that they could get
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sex because they could pressure lesbian women to get sex.
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And all of a sudden, lo and behold, like a year ago, the trans maxing movement shows up
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And yeah, for people who aren't aware of the trans maxing movement is basically a group
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of incels that said, if men are treated so unfairly in society, then let's just become
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And reportedly most of the, it's going pretty well for most of the people in the movement.
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I'm finding that there's like, there are a lot of issues with mental illness in the movement.
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That I kind of run into, but there are also a lot of people who are looking at it from like
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Like if you look at, if the person I would point everybody to is Tina, a German trans
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maxer that literally experimented with this and said, I want to use female hormones, not
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for sex, but so that I can reduce my sex drive as a male.
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Because the idea was like sex was so like, if your sex drive is high, but you can't express
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So if you reduce your sex drive or eliminate it completely, then, then you won't suffer
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And that's also that's, and I think this is really helping me understand where I got the
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MGTOW movement wrong because I had initially seen the MGTOW movement as like the Buddhism
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So whereas pickup artists were like, oh, life is suffering.
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I'm going to figure out how to just do it really well and accumulate as much wealth or
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Whereas MGTOW was, oh, life is suffering and the cycle, you know, it was like this Buddhist
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approach of if the desire is what causes pain, then I will stop desiring, but I'm getting
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If you look at the old MGTOW boards, the most common type of posts that I remember, and
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you can correct me if this was showing off all the things they could afford because they
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My, if I have to like, if my, like I'm doing a mid journey, like picture of the MGTOW post,
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it's like a beautiful view from a hiking trail with a dog.
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But I'm wondering, has that type of posting died down?
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What types of posts have been common in the community over time?
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There was a guy called mayor of MGTOW and he posted the expensive cars.
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And what this did was the conservative movement, the conservatives, the conservative women,
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especially were really angry because they realized this is a man that's spending his money on this
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And all of a sudden they thought the female, I call it the female collective got angry because
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that was money that they saw as possibly belonging to a woman.
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That's a really interesting phenomenon that I want to touch on.
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And we touched on it the last time we were talking.
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This concept of the female collective, because I have noticed this as a phenomenon.
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Like we talked about it in the case of like sex dolls and like weirdly feminist groups
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getting angry about that or the MGTOW and women getting more angry about that than they
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That there is some sort of reaction of money that isn't going to the female collective.
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And I don't think there's an equivalent male reaction.
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The thing is, you know, you talk about the sex dolls and sex robots.
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The community always says women will never use that technology as much as men because
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it doesn't come with a wallet because the man they get involved with will also provide
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But if they're just with a hot, attractive Android, that Android is not going to give them
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My favorite recent example of this was when the completely AI generated girls began to
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There was like a strike and people were calling for them to be banned.
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So Code Miko is an Asian girl and she basically puts on a full immersion suit that like generates
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And she does all these exaggerated facial expressions and things.
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So it's she can change her skin and she can basically she's so she looks like a 3D generated
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The motion captures technology is like what you would see in a film, right?
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So she's got this technology to capture facial expressions, capture her body language, everything.
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Another interesting case of this that happened recently that I remember was that a Instagram
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celebrity was found to be completely AI generated.
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And like after the big release, like she didn't lose that many followers.
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Turned out people don't really care if what they're seeing is AI generated.
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And there might even eventually be a premium on that content, given the politics involved,
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I want to get your conjecture, Sandman, on whether there might even be in the midst of
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this AI being completely supplanting women in terms of romantic friendships and relationships
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But then also, do you think that there's a world in which there's some kind of weird
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detente between MGTOW men and the equivalent MGTOW women where they just agree we will co-parent
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When a man wouldn't have to pay a surrogate, they could share the child every other week.
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I got involved in a few relationships and I said, this is what I would want, which would
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be like, let's own two different apartments that are apart and like have co-parent and do
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But I feel like I've met women who are like, I don't need a husband.
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I just really would like to have a kid, but I would like to know that there's like another
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But the aspect of it that I hear where I think it breaks down is they say, I want to do this
00:19:37.640
on my own and I'll do it with a collection of other women.
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They try living in the group and it doesn't end up working.
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So there's articles you should look up like commune, but mom-yunes.
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So they're like mothers that get together and live with their children.
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And I feel sorry for the oldest male children because they're going to be used as the emotional
00:20:00.120
tampon to soak up all that negative energy of all the moms that are like, oh, Billy, come
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It's like, I think Billy has to take all the, let me talk your ear off for an hour.
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And then the next mother comes in and talks his ear off for an hour.
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And the poor child is like, he's talking to his like four mothers for four hours or five
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Actually, we met someone who, a guy who had come out of a cult in South America.
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Where there was just one dude with a ton of wives.
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And basically as soon as the male youths got of a came of age, basically turned 16, they
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So essentially it was just tons of women and one adult man, but he came out like really
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well adjusted and had this like network of male brothers around like the United States.
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I just saw how the mom-yunes movement works, by the way.
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It's sisters, a daughter and mother, stuff like that.
00:21:01.600
And in that case, it would make sense because there's like genetic alignment, right?
00:21:06.780
But yeah, I actually feel like the guys in that came out pretty, from that cult, came
00:21:14.960
I know the guy she's talking about and he was incredibly well adjusted.
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Should we be raising our kids in a cult or something?
00:21:21.640
He was probably looking up to his father and picking up a lot of the characteristics
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that the father had around the mother's dynamic.
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So that, like, obviously it's rubbing off the behavior.
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And all of the brothers were kicked out of the cult.
00:21:52.240
But I've actually noticed something broadly is that people who grew up in cults seem to
00:21:55.700
be more better mentally adjusted than people who don't.
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Just in my broad experience, which is a really weird thing I've noticed.
00:22:01.720
I think it might just be that our society today is so toxic that anything that insulates
00:22:09.020
Or you're meeting the ones who were smart enough to leave the cult, right?
00:22:12.680
So they not only survived the cults, but they left them and then made it work in the real
00:22:20.800
So this is a really interesting evolution of MGTOW that you've given to us.
00:22:30.060
So I'm talking to, I've talked to younger guys in their teens.
00:22:34.140
Number one, they're more likely to pick up on the whole AI girlfriend thing.
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This is one of the things that's made me feel like my tech, the technology, the virtual
00:22:44.080
I feel young guys wouldn't even want intimacy with a real woman anymore.
00:22:47.740
Even if it was like mediated through technology, they're more interested in like their phone
00:22:57.740
And so we're, we're entering this weird place in human history where you guys, if you're
00:23:03.460
talking about trying to keep the fertility rates from, keep them stable, or at least go back
00:23:14.360
But I think that you're right in what you're saying.
00:23:17.820
And I do think that this will be the next big movement.
00:23:20.220
It's, it's really interesting that you mentioned it because what it will allow for is cultural
00:23:24.220
groups to form where these guys are married to the AI, where they're like, don't devalue
00:23:30.800
This is exactly the same as being married to a woman.
00:23:33.220
What I'm wondering is if this time around there would be an alliance between the guys
00:23:40.580
who marry the AIs and the girls who marry the AIs because they'd have a lot of the time
00:23:46.660
maybe more interested or will it become like marrying an AI as a guy is evil, but marrying
00:23:51.740
an AI as a girl is a totally normal thing to do.
00:23:56.280
So right now you're seeing women having coping strategies with regards to loneliness and
00:24:01.600
You're seeing like the social media is filling in the gap.
00:24:05.340
I'm seeing women all kind of liking each other's posts to give each other esteem.
00:24:11.960
I hadn't, you mentioned it and I was like, I've seen that.
00:24:15.280
So like a woman will post something and then 20 of her female friends will post something.
00:24:19.560
Then you go to the other woman's posts and then you'll see those same 20 women posts
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And so they're giving each other like that attention that men would have typically given
00:24:30.920
And obviously we're in an attention-based economy.
00:24:32.880
So the more attention you get, the more currency you get, the more people want to get a piece
00:24:42.660
I think that it's interesting to contrast this with what we see happening in male spheres,
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which is more a consolidation of attention among fewer individuals where it's less of
00:24:51.760
attention sharing groups and more of hero worship cults.
00:24:56.180
It's ridiculous how, yeah, like it's ridiculous that you're seeing, and I've spoken to those
00:25:00.940
same young guys and they're obsessed with Andrew Tate, but they're all, they talk about,
00:25:06.820
And so no wonder all of the teachers in the schools are freaking out because they don't
00:25:11.200
understand that these kids are just emulating the more like crass and crude parts of him.
00:25:15.800
They're not like imitating the more complex thought.
00:25:18.680
So it's, that's anyway, that's what I'm saying.
00:25:20.840
This is something you had talked about, which I think we're going to say this is you were
00:25:23.400
pointing out that you respected his deeper philosophy and you think he just uses a crass
00:25:32.500
Like it's to use the soundbites to get some people's attention and then try to drag other,
00:25:37.980
drag the more intellectual people into the more complex stuff down the road if they're
00:25:44.700
Although I, yeah, it's interesting what you say that there's a generation and I think
00:25:51.060
It's totally right that you can follow the Andrew Tate school of thought, but not want
00:25:56.600
to do with women, what Andrew Tate has done because frankly, what Andrew Tate has done with
00:26:01.320
women, at least historically, I don't know what he's up to now is way too high effort.
00:26:05.360
I do not want to like, can you imagine like dealing with all of these women, like managing
00:26:11.160
them professionally, maintaining all these relations?
00:26:17.120
But the thing is, you can definitely see that he's an incredibly high IQ male, right?
00:26:24.860
He's got a, he's got a big work ethic and he's made a few really big risky moves in
00:26:32.620
But we'll see how that paid off if he ends up in jail or it's going to be, it's going
00:26:37.080
But yeah, like in terms of, in terms of where, in terms of where MGTOW is going, like I, that's
00:26:41.940
the thing that scares me the most is just the complete lack of human interaction because
00:26:47.540
I'm like, what does that represent for the human race?
00:26:50.380
And then if we, if we want to talk about collapsing populations, the thing that, the thing I love
00:26:56.640
about Malcolm saying 96% of the South Koreans will be gone in a hundred years.
00:27:01.700
That is like the wake up call that people need to hear.
00:27:04.500
But the problem is humans do not think in exponentials, right?
00:27:08.740
We don't think about exponential population growth or exponential population decline.
00:27:13.520
And it won't be until we're like, well down half, halfway down that curve where people
00:27:21.340
So I don't know if we're going to find solutions.
00:27:25.100
Oh, like obviously we were using too many resources.
00:27:28.400
Like people, some people will say, Oh, we know the planet is underpopulated.
00:27:38.080
We're going to run out of these things and we need to allow the earth to renew these things.
00:27:42.220
So AI will provide us virtual workers that'll replace a huge chunk of the population.
00:27:48.500
So I think a lot of these problems will solve themselves.
00:27:51.120
But my biggest worry is that there's going to be a, like a, just how there's like an
00:27:57.360
There's going to be an undershoot with population decline.
00:28:00.160
And my thing is like, how do we stop that undershoot?
00:28:03.400
Again, we're not going to be around to see that, but yeah.
00:28:06.260
But I also think that the person who kind of figures this out will probably be one of the
00:28:10.420
most important people in the next hundred to 200 years.
00:28:19.800
I do agree that whoever figures this out, I actually think it's more than that.
00:28:23.260
I think multiple people will figure this out for different cultural groups, because I think
00:28:29.760
And I think every one of those people who figures this out is going to be one of the most
00:28:33.840
represented thought patterns or cultural groups a hundred years from now.
00:28:37.740
They will define what the future of our species looks like.
00:28:40.480
And I'd also remind people that we're still a species on one planet.
00:28:43.860
All of the cultural changes that happen now for our species will be represented multitudinally
00:28:49.040
across the thousands of planets we hopefully one day colonize in a way that like, if one
00:28:54.700
person a thousand times smarter than me came up with some great idea when we're on a thousand
00:28:58.800
planets, it's never going to spread to all of humanity.
00:29:01.380
So the impact you can have by working on this problem is bigger than any impact our descendants
00:29:10.660
And I don't think you see the problem with a lot of these communities is they don't necessarily
00:29:14.820
And this is another thing that this is one of the reasons that probably the main reason
00:29:18.440
I reached out to Malcolm was because Malcolm understands that you can talk about, you can
00:29:25.060
And the problem I always find is everyone is just stuck in their silo and they won't talk
00:29:28.880
to anyone else and they won't acknowledge the knowledge of other groups simply because
00:29:35.080
And this is, again, part of that whole Sigma male thing where you don't care about like
00:29:39.360
who's out, which group is the biggest and blah, blah, blah.
00:29:42.200
You're just pushing your own, you're pushing your own knowledge base forward.
00:29:46.600
I think that's one of the reasons that gives me a lot of hope for the movement in the future,
00:29:50.060
because in the future, I think doing what's conformist and what like is conventionally
00:29:55.040
wise is maybe just not going to work like in the face of technology and modernity and
00:30:00.460
groups like Sigma males are more likely to develop cultural and technological innovations
00:30:07.460
that could make it one of the most generative and influential groups.
00:30:12.360
If it doesn't get caught in some kind of masturbatory AI girlfriend, do nothing loop.
00:30:18.680
And I don't think Sigma is so much about like sex and reproduction.
00:30:22.320
It's more about just like working, producing, getting ahead financially.
00:30:27.900
So it is focused on like output in the world, which is.
00:30:31.800
It's not so much about just like retreating into.
00:30:34.800
There's going to be, there are going to be technologies that make each of these subgroups
00:30:38.920
So for example, when I look at, when I look at the P ways, so right, if you've ever listened
00:30:44.140
or read the hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy, there's the babble fish, right?
00:30:48.940
So right now I've spoken to guys and they're like, they go on dating sites and what they
00:30:54.920
do is they take, they copy paste the response the woman gives them and they put it in AI
00:30:59.780
and then AI comes up with what to say to the woman.
00:31:02.560
So they're like literally like becoming, I would call it like, what's his name?
00:31:12.940
So you have, you create a technology that's like that, that literally translates what a woman
00:31:16.400
says, and you, and now you have something to say back to her and you could call it the
00:31:22.060
And so imagine every guy walking around on dates with this earpiece.
00:31:25.340
That's like literally feeding them lines to tell the woman back.
00:31:28.640
So the woman doesn't even know who she's dating anymore.
00:31:34.800
It's just, we're getting into these really weird places where, you know, like right now
00:31:39.520
you saw Tinder destroy everything in, you know, 2013, 14, it destroyed the sexual marketplace.
00:31:45.120
And now you're going to see these other technologies completely destroy that again.
00:31:49.620
So just for viewers, what he's saying isn't subjective.
00:31:52.940
Statistically, Tinder destroyed the sexual marketplace.
00:31:55.580
And the other thing, you can see this in the data, like sexless rates, relationshipless rates
00:31:59.400
shoot up after Tinder was invented and correlate with its spread and the spread of that model.
00:32:03.480
But the other thing that he mentioned there that I think is really interesting is when
00:32:08.160
we talk about people using the AIs for how they communicate with their partner, especially
00:32:11.680
as we get more and more hooked to AIs, I imagine that's going to be a big part of the argument
00:32:16.140
that the people who are just dating AIs directly use.
00:32:19.240
It's, you're just using somebody as a meat puppet.
00:32:21.900
You're basically dating their AI assistant anyway.
00:32:27.460
We, they may even develop a movement where you are exploiting women or men by dating a
00:32:32.280
real woman or man, but any sort of sexual relationship.
00:32:34.900
Cause I've already seen subcurrents of this is intrinsically exploitative.
00:32:38.760
And the only healthy sexual relationship is when solely was an AI.
00:32:44.400
And then the AI will collect your data and then it'll sell it to it.
00:32:47.700
It's going to get in the AI will generate the perfect image based on what you've looked
00:32:51.760
at in terms of pornography, in terms of who you've made eye contact with.
00:32:55.480
Another thing that no one's really talking about is how AR is going to change things.
00:33:06.680
And now you can, you could be a 25 year old guy and you could find a 55 or 60 year old
00:33:12.260
You could put on the AR glasses and now she looks like a 25 year old woman because the
00:33:17.100
technology will now digitally de-age her in bed.
00:33:20.760
You just hope the battery doesn't run out while you're having your orgasm.
00:33:23.360
Well, we're already seeing that with the auto filters on a lot of these things like TikToks
00:33:30.560
To the end where when I, you know, when we talk with our younger viewers, body dysmorphia
00:33:37.360
I think because they have such a misunderstanding of what the average person actually looks like.
00:33:44.800
And this came up in an episode where I said, you want to get rid of your body dysmorphia,
00:33:50.920
If you're in the top 20%, you probably don't have a problem.
00:33:55.600
And Simone said, and the listeners, the viewers in the comments agreed with her.
00:34:01.320
That's just comparing yourself to the population.
00:34:04.240
What are you comparing yourself to if not the population?
00:34:08.600
You're making yourself feel good by looking at all the land whales, right?
00:34:19.660
No, we are now comparing ourselves to like the filtered perfect angle non-humans that we see online.
00:34:27.900
I think I'm really starting to see a future in which like these sex dolls that you're designing actually have a world.
00:34:34.000
Like it could be that like I as a female of the future would never even like I may develop a big attachment to a guy,
00:34:41.240
but I would never want him to actually see me because then he would see physically what I look like.
00:34:46.720
Instead, I do have like my filter and we can have tricks and we can feel all the good stuff.
00:34:51.540
But there's influencers like some of them are older and I'm like, wow, she was really hot when she was like 25, 30.
00:34:59.040
And I'm like, would I get together with her today?
00:35:01.960
But if I had AR and I put that on, would I get together with her?
00:35:10.940
Maybe she'd be like, I like you at this age, so I can just put this filter on.
00:35:18.800
That would be a great form of cheating that happens in the future where you tell your spouse you're only de-aging them.
00:35:24.800
But you're actually replacing them with another person.
00:35:26.560
And they're like, your setting was on X the entire time you told me this with younger me.
00:35:34.780
How dare you cheat on me with the neighbor while you're with me?
00:35:45.840
Like we're saying this and people are like, that's a wacky thing.
00:35:51.320
Look, I had dolls sent to me for free kind of to review and post on my channel.
00:35:56.160
And for a while I was promoting the technology.
00:35:58.520
The problem, there's amazing things with the technology, which I could probably count on one or two fingers, right?
00:36:04.000
And there's all these bad things with the technology, which include things like it weighs 70 pounds.
00:36:09.740
Like you get a workout before you get into bed.
00:36:13.160
Like you're like ready to fall over before you, you're like, imagine changing positions on this thing three or four times.
00:36:19.100
You're like, it's like getting a full workout in the gym.
00:36:41.340
I think when I think about this though, I think about the, I think it was with gorillas where like they, they took infant gorillas, just some kind of ape.
00:36:49.060
And they tried to see what kind of mother surrogate it would connect to.
00:36:53.200
And they had like, yeah, like a wire thing with like milk.
00:36:58.640
And that even though it didn't have milk, the, the babies would go to the warm, fuzzy stuffed animal, not the wireframe with the milk.
00:37:05.600
And I think what we have to do with the future of sex is figure out what for us is the warm, fuzzy.
00:37:13.600
Like people are thinking, oh, we need this like physical giant doll with all this stuff.
00:37:17.980
Maybe what we really need is a haptic suit with all the right inserts, like with a flashlight or with a vibrator.
00:37:24.000
Oh, that's exactly what I was talking about earlier with the, so the, the doll, like the woman you pay for it.
00:37:28.640
After the service, you would have the suit and it would have all of the different things stimulating your, my biggest thing was like, for me, I don't get necessarily more pleasure from getting pleasure.
00:37:42.760
So for me, when, when I, people are like, oh, I'm going to have sex with the robot.
00:37:48.120
I'm not getting anything by giving something to it.
00:37:50.820
But then you talk to younger people, like we're already obsolete.
00:37:55.560
You guys are probably somewhere in your thirties.
00:37:57.140
And you got to look at the 18 to 30 year olds and that's where things are happening.
00:38:02.140
And if 50% of 18 to 30 year old males are either in, not in relationships or don't want relationships, that means that 25, 25 is incel and, and MGTOW.
00:38:13.260
So that's like the majority of the population is there.
00:38:15.600
And I'm predicting that you're going to get 70 to 80% MGTOWs slash incels.
00:38:19.960
And you're going to get maybe 20% at the top that are going to still have sex.
00:38:23.640
But at some point, even that, those, that group, if the technology gets good enough, is going to start walking away.
00:38:28.760
No, what I love about this is you're one of the guys who originally was promoting this movement, growing this movement.
00:38:35.340
You're still a leader in the movement, but you're here being like, oh shit, what happens when 75% of guys are in this movement?
00:38:42.820
Like I was told back in the day, a lot of guys who were promoting this, they said, my whole thing was like, I want to make MGTOW mainstream.
00:38:53.320
And I'm like, maybe that wasn't such a good idea.
00:39:00.480
No, but I don't think, I do think the system was intrinsically unpaid support.
00:39:05.000
And I think calling out an exploitative system is never an immoral action.
00:39:10.540
I think the only way to really see the problem is to see it from outside the system.
00:39:14.800
So you have to go your own way and then look at the sexual marketplace from the outside and then figure out like, oh, because that was why I even got involved in this in the first place.
00:39:23.200
I was involved in a five-year relationship, then a 10-year relationship.
00:39:26.420
And I was like, okay, before I go back into relationships, I need to figure out what's going on.
00:39:45.140
Okay, Simone, I have to go pick up the kids now.
00:39:47.220
It was a really big pleasure speaking with you.
00:39:51.560
So hoping you might be up for more conversation.