Based Camp - July 26, 2023


An Anthropology of the Manosphere (Featuring Sandman)

Topics
MGTOW anthropology incels Sigma vs. MGTOW threats mom-yunes movement body dysmorphia
Hosted by
Malcolm Collins Simone Collins
Mentioned
Andrew Tate Malcolm Simone Billy Gen Z Sandman MGTOW Barbarossa Stardust Alpha Tina
NPC Memes and the Next Gender Based Camp： The Trauma Conspiracy

Episode Stats


Length

40 minutes

Words per minute

206.07

Word count

8,254

Sentence count

667

Harmful content

Misogyny

47

sentences flagged

Toxicity

46

sentences flagged

Hate speech

62

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

On this episode of the podcast, we are joined by Sandman MGTOW to discuss the history of the movement of men who have chosen to go their own way. Sandman has been involved in the movement since the early 2000s and has been a part of it since the very beginning. He is a man of many talents, but he is not only an intellectual, he is also a comedian, writer, and podcaster.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00.000 I had, I had dolls sent to me for free to review and post on my channel.
00:00:04.380 And for a while I was promoting the technology.
00:00:06.560 It weighs 70 pounds.
00:00:08.220 Like you get a workout before you work, get into bed.
00:00:11.640 Like you're like ready to fall over before you be like,
00:00:14.300 imagine changing positions on this thing three or four times you're out. 0.71
00:00:17.100 You're white. 0.95
00:00:17.480 You're like, it's like getting a full workout in the gym.
00:00:20.440 Yeah.
00:00:20.840 You're doll bod. 0.81
00:00:22.180 Yeah. 0.93
00:00:22.600 You're doll bod. 0.81
00:00:25.200 Yes.
00:00:26.520 Yes.
00:00:27.460 Would you like to know more?
00:00:28.820 Hello.
00:00:29.080 We are very excited to be joined today by Sandman MGTOW,
00:00:33.100 the preeminent MGTOW figure talking head, or I guess I should say faceless talking head.
00:00:39.680 You're very mysterious.
00:00:41.680 Representing the movement of men who've chosen to go their own way,
00:00:44.900 which is for those not familiar with it.
00:00:46.680 Basically a lot of men have realized that they're getting a really raw deal in society.
00:00:49.940 And they're like, you know what?
00:00:51.540 I'm out.
00:00:52.420 I'm not going to opt into traditional female relationships. 1.00
00:00:55.560 A lot of this bullshit. 0.99
00:00:56.540 And I, for one, am here for it. 1.00
00:00:59.540 It makes a lot of sense to me.
00:01:00.700 I think if I were a guy, I'd be a MGTOW guy. 0.80
00:01:03.160 And what I am excited to talk about on this podcast is the anthropology of MGTOW, 0.59
00:01:07.920 the anthropological history.
00:01:10.060 And it can start when you started getting involved with it or where you saw who were the figures,
00:01:14.240 who were the progenitors of the movement?
00:01:16.240 How did it first start?
00:01:17.660 What communities did it start in?
00:01:19.380 How did it spread?
00:01:21.120 What have been the major trials of the community?
00:01:23.640 I am just very interested to see it as a cultural movement.
00:01:27.760 Okay.
00:01:28.340 So you had MGTOW 1.0, and that was around the early 2000s.
00:01:34.000 And the idea was we were going to take masculinity and instill it in men,
00:01:39.040 and we're going to take femininity and instill it in women. 1.00
00:01:40.820 So it was more like back to tradition, but this is back in 2000.
00:01:45.320 And so that didn't really go anywhere up until about 2008, 2009.
00:01:51.600 And then a creator named Barbarossa showed up, and he made a video called,
00:01:56.900 I think it was called Post Feminist Man.
00:01:59.260 And he basically laid the foundations for MGTOW all the way from 2009, 10, 11, 12.
00:02:05.500 Then another creator named Stardust was around back then.
00:02:08.540 And then when I came in around mid to end of 2013, it was dying down.
00:02:14.440 Nobody was really making content.
00:02:16.440 When I always look at an opportunity in any avenue, like in terms of economics or attention
00:02:22.620 or whatever you want to do, I look at something that's something I want a lot of.
00:02:27.160 I want some content.
00:02:28.460 I want something, but there's not enough people supplying that content.
00:02:31.940 So before we go further on this, because I think you've already passed this in the timeline,
00:02:36.120 how did MGTOW relate to the red pill movement?
00:02:38.320 So you've got, you get the MRAs, which are the men's rights activists. 0.75
00:02:41.960 And they're both cool.
00:02:42.800 They were back up in like in the nineties, right?
00:02:45.200 But every generation of men has a different movement at the center.
00:02:48.940 So the MRAs were, let's say the second half of the boomers and the first half of Gen X.
00:02:55.340 That was the MRA.
00:02:56.220 That's the MRA sweet spot.
00:02:57.940 So if you go to an MRA conference, that's your demographic.
00:03:00.460 Those are men that had relationships that were good for the most part.
00:03:05.160 And they said, okay, we want these relationships.
00:03:06.940 We want to continue to be married, but we just want to fix things.
00:03:11.080 And we want things to go back to the way they were.
00:03:13.920 And so that's the MRAs. 0.76
00:03:15.720 So the MGTOWs came in and that was the second half of Gen X and the first half of the millennials. 0.89
00:03:23.200 And that's like your MGTOW sweet spot. 0.59
00:03:25.720 And so I'm, you know, in the middle of that.
00:03:27.260 So I could see that I could understand the younger guys and understand the point of the older guys.
00:03:31.620 And MGTOW was saying, look, we can't fix these problems.
00:03:35.380 You've tried to fix them for the last 10, 15 years.
00:03:38.660 It's not working.
00:03:39.980 What we have to do is fix these problems for the individual male. 0.60
00:03:43.580 We have to make sure that the individual man has a solution for his own life.
00:03:47.820 We can't change society, but you can change your own life.
00:03:51.180 And that's why MGTOW was so powerful. 0.90
00:03:53.620 And, but also we have to understand MGTOW men had relationships.
00:03:57.960 They just weren't very high quality relationships.
00:04:01.060 And so, and then, okay.
00:04:03.020 So then after that, once that kind of passes, now you're in the age of the incel.
00:04:07.580 So you're now talking about guys who haven't had any formative relationships with women.
00:04:12.820 They haven't had those sexual experiences.
00:04:15.620 And so they're just, that's why kind of incel has moved forward and taken over.
00:04:19.480 And it was originally that was called true force loneliness.
00:04:22.040 So if you watch the original true force loneliness guys back in 2014, 15, they were angry and they
00:04:29.000 were more masculine.
00:04:29.700 So when people say the incels are violent, yes, the older incels, they were sex deprived.
00:04:35.320 And they, for the most part, they were a lot more aggressive than the, the younger incels 0.99
00:04:39.880 who are a lot more passive.
00:04:40.780 And I think a lot of that also has to do with the, with the testosterone levels.
00:04:45.020 I think the testosterone levels are dropping.
00:04:47.660 So because of that, you're starting to see men that are 18, 19, that are saying, I don't
00:04:52.080 want sex. 0.86
00:04:52.700 And I'm the fact that you have young males in their prime that are, have no sex drive 0.81
00:04:57.980 should be worrying to all of us.
00:05:00.520 So this is analogous to like the herbivore male movement in Japan.
00:05:04.000 Mm-hmm.
00:05:05.360 Yeah.
00:05:05.940 Herbivore men, like a lot of people said they're MGTOWs.
00:05:08.480 A lot of people said they're incels, but they're more MGTOWs because they're choosing 1.00
00:05:12.300 to walk away.
00:05:13.440 There's a choice there.
00:05:14.840 Okay.
00:05:15.120 So then in the midst of all of this, you had the PUAs, the pickup artist community. 0.62
00:05:19.520 And the pickup artist community is now what is referred to as the red pill movement, because 0.71
00:05:24.400 they, I guess they just take the, the label for themselves.
00:05:27.460 Now the problem with the, with MGTOW was on in November of 2018, the entire MGTOW community 1.00
00:05:34.560 on YouTube was demonetized.
00:05:36.480 Every single channel on one day was hit.
00:05:40.640 So what happened was once that happened, you can see the peak on YouTube search results.
00:05:46.560 And then you see a decline from that point on, but all of the other communities were still
00:05:51.080 allowed to continue to be monetized.
00:05:53.500 So all of the other, so people started shifting.
00:05:56.340 They said, I can't make money making MGTOW content.
00:05:59.020 I'm going to make red pill pickup artist content.
00:06:01.580 So they, they took all of the knowledge that they had and they started like shifting their
00:06:05.740 target audience a little bit.
00:06:07.320 Like I'm still one of the few hardcore content creators that managed to survive after all of
00:06:12.260 that.
00:06:12.680 But the majority of content creators, they were either like thrown off the platforms and
00:06:17.020 now they exist in like all tech platforms or they just gave up.
00:06:20.480 So you saw within six months, like 90% of the MGTOW content producers just disappear.
00:06:26.040 And when I came in, I realized, okay, how do you create a movement?
00:06:29.380 What you do is you make something that works an idea and you pass it out and you make money
00:06:34.520 doing it.
00:06:35.120 And then when other people see you doing this, they'll adopt the same idea and start promoting
00:06:40.620 the idea and making money off of it.
00:06:42.700 And so that, and why was MGTOW so threatening compared to everything else?
00:06:47.060 It's because it's, it was effective because it was literally empowering individual males
00:06:51.940 to build up their financial assets, to not give women attention, to, to basically live 0.98
00:06:58.080 life for themselves.
00:06:59.160 And so a lot of that is also been replaced by the Sigma like movement.
00:07:03.540 So you're seeing that group too.
00:07:05.540 Tell me about that group.
00:07:06.460 Yeah.
00:07:06.680 The Sigma group I find really interesting.
00:07:08.020 But before you go further, one thing I want to clarify for our audience, how insane it
00:07:12.640 is that the MGTOW movement was demonetized is imagine if you had a female, an equivalent 0.99
00:07:17.360 female movement that was like, guys are horrible. 1.00
00:07:20.800 Let's just not date. 0.97
00:07:22.320 Let's try to figure out how to live without men. 1.00
00:07:24.500 And yeah, they had, they might have some misanduous undertones to them.
00:07:28.020 Imagine if they had all been demonetized.
00:07:30.360 People would have thrown, they'd be like, why can't women just not date? 1.00
00:07:33.980 But no guys doing that.
00:07:35.960 That's not allowed.
00:07:37.040 But all right, let's continue with the Sigma movement because I find them really interesting
00:07:40.380 too.
00:07:40.900 The Sigma grind set, like I would identify as a Sigma male because I'm constantly working,
00:07:46.660 constantly producing, making money, blah, blah, blah.
00:07:49.300 So there's this gap that happened in society when you get this existential crisis where a
00:07:54.300 lot of guys are like saying, I'm not going to have a relationship.
00:07:56.620 What should I do with my free time?
00:07:58.960 And then they just, I'm just going to work and work and work.
00:08:01.160 And so that's allowed because that means the male is productive. 0.84
00:08:05.600 He's paying his tax.
00:08:07.000 So he's enriching the state.
00:08:09.080 MGTOW, on the other hand, it deprives women of attention. 1.00
00:08:12.660 It deprives the state of, a lot of men that are going their way are not going to have children.
00:08:17.280 So it deprives the state of children.
00:08:19.700 It deprives the lawyers of divorces.
00:08:21.740 There's all this knock-on effect that's affecting society.
00:08:25.840 So that's why it's the most threatening one from an economic standpoint.
00:08:28.700 Because if you're the elites and all of a sudden there's a group of men that are just hoarding their money and making a ton of money and not like paying it out, then you have competition.
00:08:38.980 Those men can create new technologies and things.
00:08:40.940 Anyway, go ahead.
00:08:41.640 Would you define Sigma?
00:08:42.640 Because I'm actually not familiar with this distinction.
00:08:47.000 Define in contrast to Alpha.
00:08:48.340 So I think that's probably a good way to do it.
00:08:49.980 So you've got Alpha, Delta.
00:08:54.660 You've got the four different types of males. 0.96
00:08:56.620 And they're all part of a hierarchy.
00:08:58.480 They're all part of a hierarchy.
00:08:59.560 Okay, walk me through.
00:09:00.600 Sigma male. 0.88
00:09:00.980 Okay, so to be a Sigma male, you have to be outside of the hierarchy.
00:09:05.780 And you can't just be outside the hierarchy.
00:09:07.620 You have to be of the mindset. 0.99
00:09:09.820 You just don't give a shit. 0.99
00:09:10.720 So I'll give you an example. 0.99
00:09:12.560 When I was growing up, when I was in the ninth grade, I was being bullied.
00:09:15.660 So I decided, okay, I'm going to go and I'm going to work out.
00:09:18.180 And I spent literally two hours a day working out for a couple of years.
00:09:21.020 And after that, nobody picked on me.
00:09:22.880 But then what I noticed was I could express myself in any which way that I wanted.
00:09:27.140 I could get involved with music or poetry.
00:09:30.100 And people couldn't say, oh, you're gay or whatever. 0.89
00:09:32.160 It's because I could get violent back at them. 0.87
00:09:34.880 So there was this kind of freedom.
00:09:37.420 The Sigma male doesn't care. 0.57
00:09:38.640 It's like you've seen the, what's the archetype of the Sigma?
00:09:42.120 The, the giga chat.
00:09:43.520 Like he just doesn't care.
00:09:44.760 He's got that smirk look on his face where he's just, I don't care.
00:09:48.140 So that's the thing you got to, the person who defined the Sigma male, I can't remember
00:09:52.320 his name, but he goes through it and he breaks it down.
00:09:55.700 Another aspect of Sigma males is that nobody likes them because they don't know what to
00:09:59.440 do with them.
00:09:59.940 They just, they like, you're not trying to like.
00:10:02.820 They have nothing on them.
00:10:03.880 There's nothing that they can hold hostage that gives them control.
00:10:07.240 Yeah, exactly.
00:10:08.240 Because it's, if you're not part of the hierarchy, if you're not part of the hierarchy, which
00:10:12.080 is pretty much my experience growing up, the hierarchy will try to drag you back in, you 0.61
00:10:16.700 know, it'll try to suck you back in. 0.80
00:10:18.460 And the more you fight it, the more it wants to drag you in even more. 0.86
00:10:22.740 So that's the thing about Sigma males.
00:10:25.120 It's like they'll fight to remain outside the hierarchy.
00:10:28.460 Now, how is that different from just MGTOW in general?
00:10:31.980 Because you were alluding to like Sigma males still like being, I think, more economically 0.88
00:10:36.440 involved.
00:10:36.920 What can you give me my answer?
00:10:38.140 And he can tell me if it's wrong.
00:10:39.360 Is I actually think that you're looking at the question from two different angles.
00:10:43.520 MGTOW was men going their own way.
00:10:45.480 It was a life strategy.
00:10:47.160 There was a period where there was like this fad within the manosphere online to talk about
00:10:51.640 being alpha and what you need to be alpha.
00:10:53.760 And this is how you alpha.
00:10:55.040 And like the red pill was really obsessed with alpha.
00:10:56.980 And it makes sense that in reaction to that, men who were of this more Sigma mindset, which
00:11:03.920 historically and anthropologically likely existed, would say that doesn't describe my
00:11:08.000 desires at all or what's motivating me at all.
00:11:10.360 So I will define myself in opposition to this.
00:11:12.600 So I think what you're missing is that the two communities might have a lot of overlaps,
00:11:15.920 but they're not in competition with each other in the same way that like MGTOW and red pill
00:11:20.220 may have been more of a, not opposing movements, but like definitely ideologically.
00:11:24.560 You have to say P the pickup artists and the MGTOWs. 1.00
00:11:27.320 I say though, like the red pill pickup, you'd have to define it because they're a red pickup.
00:11:31.200 Yeah.
00:11:31.440 Yeah.
00:11:32.160 And I can define red pill if people are wondering, and you can tell me if this is wrong.
00:11:35.520 I view the key distinction between them and the MGTOW is, is men and women are different. 0.98
00:11:40.400 Society is unfair for men. 0.99
00:11:42.280 MGTOW said, and for that reason, we just shouldn't engage with the system.
00:11:46.280 And red pill said, and for that reason, we should attempt to manipulate women to our advantage. 1.00
00:11:51.120 And men saying, we're taking our ball, we're ending this game and we're going home.
00:11:55.700 Yeah.
00:11:55.980 And all, but all of the other groups, the MRAs, the pickup artists, the incels, they all want 0.63
00:12:02.060 to play the game.
00:12:02.960 Yeah.
00:12:03.540 And that's why they're allowed.
00:12:04.740 And that's why they're monetized because they're still willing to cater to women's 0.81
00:12:07.980 desires and give women attention. 0.98
00:12:10.480 Okay.
00:12:11.320 Okay.
00:12:11.980 Here's a really interesting thing.
00:12:13.700 The MGTOW movement is actually ideologically very similar to the four nose movement in Korea,
00:12:19.740 but that is a feminist movement. 1.00
00:12:22.260 Yeah.
00:12:22.880 Yes.
00:12:23.580 Hold on.
00:12:24.040 What are the four nose? 0.92
00:12:24.920 I'm just going to look these up really quick.
00:12:26.280 I can't remember.
00:12:27.200 Like dating, children.
00:12:27.960 No sex, no marriage, no children. 0.85
00:12:28.940 Yeah.
00:12:29.080 Something like that.
00:12:30.060 Yeah.
00:12:30.380 It's like, that's the gist of it.
00:12:32.280 But it is very interesting as society begins to become systemically unfair, but it only makes
00:12:37.180 sense for one group to just walk away with the ball.
00:12:40.260 Yeah.
00:12:40.660 But then the system has to try to do whatever it can to make, you make the people who walk 1.00
00:12:45.880 away, come back or make them make men think that there's no, that you, there is no option
00:12:51.060 to walk away.
00:12:51.980 So if you try to erase MGTOW from the conversation, then people aren't going to get involved there. 0.63
00:12:57.300 So they're not going to think that's an option.
00:12:59.340 Are you seeing bubblings of any new groups?
00:13:01.600 Like we've talked about how things have evolved under over time.
00:13:04.700 Do you know what the next iteration is going to be called?
00:13:06.540 Well, we spoke about this before, like the, the trans maxing groups, right? 0.99
00:13:09.880 And that's in, so that's the next offshoot of the incels.
00:13:13.660 And that's because that's becoming effective.
00:13:15.560 And it's pissing off a lot of women as well, because a lot of guys, like I was predicting
00:13:19.440 this four or five, six years ago, I said that guys would transition so that they could get 0.99
00:13:23.200 sex because they could pressure lesbian women to get sex. 1.00
00:13:26.700 And all of a sudden, lo and behold, like a year ago, the trans maxing movement shows up 0.99
00:13:30.300 and everyone's like, how did you predict that?
00:13:32.080 Isn't it obvious? 0.99
00:13:32.760 These guys want sex. 0.99
00:13:34.080 They're going to do whatever it takes. 0.99
00:13:35.660 So they're literally doing whatever it takes.
00:13:37.640 That is fascinating.
00:13:41.100 And yeah, for people who aren't aware of the trans maxing movement is basically a group
00:13:45.400 of incels that said, if men are treated so unfairly in society, then let's just become
00:13:49.640 women and then we'll be treated fairly. 1.00
00:13:52.400 And reportedly most of the, it's going pretty well for most of the people in the movement.
00:13:56.240 It seems to have a high success rate.
00:13:59.000 I'm finding that there's like, there are a lot of issues with mental illness in the movement.
00:14:03.880 Oh yeah.
00:14:04.140 That I kind of run into, but there are also a lot of people who are looking at it from like
00:14:07.620 a scientific point of view.
00:14:08.800 Like if you look at, if the person I would point everybody to is Tina, a German trans
00:14:13.240 maxer that literally experimented with this and said, I want to use female hormones, not 0.99
00:14:18.180 for sex, but so that I can reduce my sex drive as a male.
00:14:22.640 Oh, wow. 0.96
00:14:24.220 Because the idea was like sex was so like, if your sex drive is high, but you can't express 0.85
00:14:29.340 it.
00:14:29.900 Yes, exactly.
00:14:30.620 And it's, it's, it's causing your suffering.
00:14:32.460 So if you reduce your sex drive or eliminate it completely, then, then you won't suffer
00:14:38.000 anymore.
00:14:38.800 And that's also that's, and I think this is really helping me understand where I got the
00:14:43.380 MGTOW movement wrong because I had initially seen the MGTOW movement as like the Buddhism
00:14:49.640 to like a messed up sexual strategy world.
00:14:54.420 So whereas pickup artists were like, oh, life is suffering.
00:14:58.740 I'm going to figure out how to just do it really well and accumulate as much wealth or
00:15:03.200 whatever like points as I can.
00:15:05.200 Whereas MGTOW was, oh, life is suffering and the cycle, you know, it was like this Buddhist 1.00
00:15:09.440 approach of if the desire is what causes pain, then I will stop desiring, but I'm getting
00:15:14.080 that I'm wrong there.
00:15:15.140 If you look at the old MGTOW boards, the most common type of posts that I remember, and
00:15:20.240 you can correct me if this was showing off all the things they could afford because they
00:15:23.940 didn't spend money on women.
00:15:25.240 Yeah.
00:15:25.480 My, if I have to like, if my, like I'm doing a mid journey, like picture of the MGTOW post,
00:15:31.900 it's like a beautiful view from a hiking trail with a dog.
00:15:36.260 Or a nice car in the background too.
00:15:37.940 Or a nice car in the background.
00:15:39.560 But I'm wondering, has that type of posting died down?
00:15:42.560 What types of posts have been common in the community over time?
00:15:45.820 You're right.
00:15:46.160 There was a guy called mayor of MGTOW and he posted the expensive cars.
00:15:49.560 And what this did was the conservative movement, the conservatives, the conservative women,
00:15:53.320 especially were really angry because they realized this is a man that's spending his money on this
00:15:58.080 car instead of spending it on a woman. 1.00
00:15:59.840 And all of a sudden they thought the female, I call it the female collective got angry because
00:16:04.460 that was money that they saw as possibly belonging to a woman. 1.00
00:16:08.100 So how dare he use that money for himself?
00:16:10.720 And I think there's a lot of that too.
00:16:13.760 That's a really interesting phenomenon that I want to touch on.
00:16:16.680 And we touched on it the last time we were talking.
00:16:18.680 This concept of the female collective, because I have noticed this as a phenomenon. 0.79
00:16:23.440 Like we talked about it in the case of like sex dolls and like weirdly feminist groups 1.00
00:16:27.480 getting angry about that or the MGTOW and women getting more angry about that than they
00:16:32.220 did about the red pill community.
00:16:34.060 That there is some sort of reaction of money that isn't going to the female collective. 0.95
00:16:39.440 And I don't think there's an equivalent male reaction.
00:16:42.640 The thing is, you know, you talk about the sex dolls and sex robots.
00:16:45.540 The community always says women will never use that technology as much as men because
00:16:50.220 it doesn't come with a wallet because the man they get involved with will also provide
00:16:54.660 all these other benefits.
00:16:55.600 But if they're just with a hot, attractive Android, that Android is not going to give them
00:16:59.840 all the other things they want.
00:17:00.740 My favorite recent example of this was when the completely AI generated girls began to 1.00
00:17:07.080 get to the top of the paper girl websites.
00:17:10.620 And there was like a revolt.
00:17:12.640 Like I can't remember.
00:17:13.220 There was like a strike and people were calling for them to be banned.
00:17:17.000 Have you guys heard of Code Miko?
00:17:19.040 No.
00:17:20.260 Yeah, continue.
00:17:21.060 So Code Miko is an Asian girl and she basically puts on a full immersion suit that like generates 0.97
00:17:27.660 the character and she interacts with people.
00:17:30.900 She's got like a podcast.
00:17:32.140 It's actually really good.
00:17:33.120 Like it's really awesome.
00:17:34.200 And she does all these exaggerated facial expressions and things. 1.00
00:17:37.340 And people were angry.
00:17:38.340 So it's she can change her skin and she can basically she's so she looks like a 3D generated 0.99
00:17:42.760 character.
00:17:43.460 OK, OK, OK, OK.
00:17:45.320 The motion captures technology is like what you would see in a film, right?
00:17:48.040 So she's got this technology to capture facial expressions, capture her body language, everything. 1.00
00:17:53.460 Another interesting case of this that happened recently that I remember was that a Instagram
00:17:57.820 celebrity was found to be completely AI generated.
00:18:01.120 And like after the big release, like she didn't lose that many followers.
00:18:05.140 Turned out people don't really care if what they're seeing is AI generated.
00:18:09.360 And there might even eventually be a premium on that content, given the politics involved,
00:18:14.060 which is just fascinating to me.
00:18:15.640 I want to ask a question.
00:18:16.740 I want to get your conjecture, Sandman, on whether there might even be in the midst of
00:18:22.060 this AI being completely supplanting women in terms of romantic friendships and relationships 1.00
00:18:28.300 and everything.
00:18:29.480 But then also, do you think that there's a world in which there's some kind of weird
00:18:34.080 detente between MGTOW men and the equivalent MGTOW women where they just agree we will co-parent 0.70
00:18:41.660 and share a child because it makes sense?
00:18:44.060 Women can gestate and for free. 1.00
00:18:46.240 When a man wouldn't have to pay a surrogate, they could share the child every other week. 0.85
00:18:50.960 In 2015, this is something I tried.
00:18:53.800 I got involved in a few relationships and I said, this is what I would want, which would
00:18:58.120 be like, let's own two different apartments that are apart and like have co-parent and do
00:19:03.780 all of this stuff.
00:19:05.040 It scared the women away. 1.00
00:19:06.820 Like it totally scared them away.
00:19:08.300 But I feel like I've met women who are like, I don't need a husband. 1.00
00:19:11.760 I just really would like to have a kid, but I would like to know that there's like another
00:19:14.920 person that would help you do that.
00:19:16.900 I know a lot of women who have said this too.
00:19:18.560 I've known none of them that have acted on it.
00:19:20.580 I don't know any couples that have done it.
00:19:22.740 No.
00:19:23.600 It's a very common sentiment.
00:19:25.520 It seems like it would work so well.
00:19:28.460 It does seem like it would work well.
00:19:29.960 But the aspect of it that I hear where I think it breaks down is they say, I want to do this
00:19:37.640 on my own and I'll do it with a collection of other women. 1.00
00:19:40.660 And then that doesn't end up working.
00:19:42.160 They try living in the group and it doesn't end up working.
00:19:44.420 That's what I often see.
00:19:45.660 You've heard the mom-yunes movement, right?
00:19:48.300 No.
00:19:48.700 No.
00:19:49.420 So there's articles you should look up like commune, but mom-yunes.
00:19:52.520 So they're like mothers that get together and live with their children.
00:19:55.460 And I feel sorry for the oldest male children because they're going to be used as the emotional
00:20:00.120 tampon to soak up all that negative energy of all the moms that are like, oh, Billy, come 1.00
00:20:04.800 over here.
00:20:05.380 It's like, I think Billy has to take all the, let me talk your ear off for an hour.
00:20:08.760 And then the next mother comes in and talks his ear off for an hour. 0.85
00:20:11.160 And the poor child is like, he's talking to his like four mothers for four hours or five 0.97
00:20:15.540 hours.
00:20:16.340 Actually, we met someone who, a guy who had come out of a cult in South America.
00:20:25.780 Where there was just one dude with a ton of wives. 1.00
00:20:28.860 And basically as soon as the male youths got of a came of age, basically turned 16, they
00:20:35.080 were kicked out of the commune.
00:20:36.420 So essentially it was just tons of women and one adult man, but he came out like really
00:20:43.300 well adjusted and had this like network of male brothers around like the United States.
00:20:49.040 I just saw how the mom-yunes movement works, by the way.
00:20:51.360 I was looking at it.
00:20:52.100 It's weird.
00:20:52.640 I haven't seen this happen.
00:20:53.300 They often seem to be related.
00:20:55.760 It's sisters, a daughter and mother, stuff like that.
00:20:59.080 Oh, okay.
00:20:59.900 So it's-
00:21:00.480 That makes perfect sense.
00:21:01.600 And in that case, it would make sense because there's like genetic alignment, right?
00:21:05.160 That's family alignment.
00:21:06.140 Yeah.
00:21:06.780 But yeah, I actually feel like the guys in that came out pretty, from that cult, came
00:21:10.840 out pretty well adjusted.
00:21:12.280 So I don't know.
00:21:12.800 Maybe it could work.
00:21:14.200 Yeah.
00:21:14.540 No, you're right.
00:21:14.960 I know the guy she's talking about and he was incredibly well adjusted.
00:21:17.380 He was a really cool guy.
00:21:18.300 Yeah. 0.94
00:21:18.400 We were like, oh crap. 0.99
00:21:19.380 Should we be raising our kids in a cult or something? 0.98
00:21:21.640 He was probably looking up to his father and picking up a lot of the characteristics
00:21:24.960 that the father had around the mother's dynamic.
00:21:27.980 So that, like, obviously it's rubbing off the behavior.
00:21:31.380 Yeah.
00:21:31.660 And he clearly knew how to manage.
00:21:33.780 So I don't know if you explained this. 0.63
00:21:35.280 It was a sex cult. 0.95
00:21:36.940 It was a sex cult. 0.99
00:21:37.720 Yeah. 0.85
00:21:37.940 It was one man, many, many women.
00:21:40.860 And all of the brothers were kicked out of the cult.
00:21:43.400 All of the women stayed in the cult. 0.95
00:21:45.260 Yeah.
00:21:45.580 Because the brothers became sexual.
00:21:46.900 That's why he had a network of only brothers.
00:21:48.840 Yeah.
00:21:49.880 Yeah.
00:21:50.660 Yeah.
00:21:51.080 The women stayed. 0.99
00:21:52.240 But I've actually noticed something broadly is that people who grew up in cults seem to
00:21:55.700 be more better mentally adjusted than people who don't.
00:21:58.220 Just in my broad experience, which is a really weird thing I've noticed.
00:22:01.720 I think it might just be that our society today is so toxic that anything that insulates
00:22:06.900 people from it leads to better mental health.
00:22:09.020 Or you're meeting the ones who were smart enough to leave the cult, right?
00:22:12.680 So they not only survived the cults, but they left them and then made it work in the real
00:22:16.740 world, right?
00:22:17.400 So you're seeing the best of the best.
00:22:19.100 There is that factor.
00:22:20.800 So this is a really interesting evolution of MGTOW that you've given to us. 0.76
00:22:25.300 Where do you think the movement is going?
00:22:27.340 And where do you want to see the movement?
00:22:29.120 After Transmax.
00:22:29.760 Okay.
00:22:30.060 So I'm talking to, I've talked to younger guys in their teens.
00:22:34.140 Number one, they're more likely to pick up on the whole AI girlfriend thing.
00:22:38.200 Nice.
00:22:38.480 This is one of the things that's made me feel like my tech, the technology, the virtual
00:22:42.060 sex system I told you about earlier.
00:22:44.080 I feel young guys wouldn't even want intimacy with a real woman anymore.
00:22:47.740 Even if it was like mediated through technology, they're more interested in like their phone
00:22:52.380 and the female voice on the phone.
00:22:54.260 They're, they're, they're turned on by that.
00:22:55.640 And they want a relationship with their phone.
00:22:57.740 And so we're, we're entering this weird place in human history where you guys, if you're
00:23:03.460 talking about trying to keep the fertility rates from, keep them stable, or at least go back
00:23:08.400 up.
00:23:08.880 We're going below one.
00:23:10.280 We're everywhere.
00:23:11.500 Oh, I agree.
00:23:12.220 I think we're going below 0.5 everywhere.
00:23:14.360 But I think that you're right in what you're saying.
00:23:17.820 And I do think that this will be the next big movement.
00:23:20.220 It's, it's really interesting that you mentioned it because what it will allow for is cultural
00:23:24.220 groups to form where these guys are married to the AI, where they're like, don't devalue
00:23:29.640 my relationship.
00:23:30.800 This is exactly the same as being married to a woman. 0.95
00:23:33.220 What I'm wondering is if this time around there would be an alliance between the guys
00:23:40.580 who marry the AIs and the girls who marry the AIs because they'd have a lot of the time
00:23:46.660 maybe more interested or will it become like marrying an AI as a guy is evil, but marrying
00:23:51.740 an AI as a girl is a totally normal thing to do.
00:23:54.140 I don't know what's okay.
00:23:56.280 So right now you're seeing women having coping strategies with regards to loneliness and
00:24:00.500 not getting male attention.
00:24:01.600 You're seeing like the social media is filling in the gap.
00:24:05.340 I'm seeing women all kind of liking each other's posts to give each other esteem. 1.00
00:24:09.620 I know it's an interesting phenomenon.
00:24:11.960 I hadn't, you mentioned it and I was like, I've seen that.
00:24:14.600 I didn't.
00:24:15.280 So like a woman will post something and then 20 of her female friends will post something. 0.99
00:24:19.560 Then you go to the other woman's posts and then you'll see those same 20 women posts 1.00
00:24:23.540 or overlap, a large overlap.
00:24:25.520 And so they're giving each other like that attention that men would have typically given
00:24:30.000 them attention.
00:24:30.920 And obviously we're in an attention-based economy.
00:24:32.880 So the more attention you get, the more currency you get, the more people want to get a piece 0.90
00:24:38.500 of your attention, it's just, it's ridiculous. 0.95
00:24:40.760 It's just insane. 0.99
00:24:42.040 Right.
00:24:42.660 I think that it's interesting to contrast this with what we see happening in male spheres,
00:24:46.340 which is more a consolidation of attention among fewer individuals where it's less of
00:24:51.760 attention sharing groups and more of hero worship cults.
00:24:55.840 Yes. 0.74
00:24:56.180 It's ridiculous how, yeah, like it's ridiculous that you're seeing, and I've spoken to those 0.53
00:25:00.940 same young guys and they're obsessed with Andrew Tate, but they're all, they talk about,
00:25:05.040 they talk like him, they're emulating him.
00:25:06.820 And so no wonder all of the teachers in the schools are freaking out because they don't
00:25:11.200 understand that these kids are just emulating the more like crass and crude parts of him.
00:25:15.800 They're not like imitating the more complex thought.
00:25:18.680 So it's, that's anyway, that's what I'm saying.
00:25:20.840 This is something you had talked about, which I think we're going to say this is you were
00:25:23.400 pointing out that you respected his deeper philosophy and you think he just uses a crass
00:25:27.420 thing to get public attention. 0.98
00:25:29.580 Yeah.
00:25:30.100 That there's a dual strategy there, right?
00:25:32.500 Like it's to use the soundbites to get some people's attention and then try to drag other,
00:25:37.980 drag the more intellectual people into the more complex stuff down the road if they're
00:25:43.040 up for it.
00:25:43.880 Yeah.
00:25:44.460 Yeah.
00:25:44.700 Although I, yeah, it's interesting what you say that there's a generation and I think
00:25:50.280 you're on this.
00:25:51.060 It's totally right that you can follow the Andrew Tate school of thought, but not want
00:25:56.600 to do with women, what Andrew Tate has done because frankly, what Andrew Tate has done with
00:26:01.320 women, at least historically, I don't know what he's up to now is way too high effort.
00:26:05.360 I do not want to like, can you imagine like dealing with all of these women, like managing 1.00
00:26:11.160 them professionally, maintaining all these relations?
00:26:13.560 It sounds like a nightmare. 0.98
00:26:15.800 I do not care how much you like sex. 0.94
00:26:17.120 But the thing is, you can definitely see that he's an incredibly high IQ male, right?
00:26:21.160 So he's able to.
00:26:22.160 Yeah.
00:26:22.180 And high effort.
00:26:23.000 Like he has tons of energy.
00:26:24.580 Yeah.
00:26:24.860 He's got a, he's got a big work ethic and he's made a few really big risky moves in
00:26:30.420 his career, which paid off.
00:26:32.200 Yeah.
00:26:32.620 But we'll see how that paid off if he ends up in jail or it's going to be, it's going
00:26:36.220 to be interesting to see.
00:26:37.080 But yeah, like in terms of, in terms of where, in terms of where MGTOW is going, like I, that's 0.57
00:26:41.940 the thing that scares me the most is just the complete lack of human interaction because
00:26:47.540 I'm like, what does that represent for the human race?
00:26:50.380 And then if we, if we want to talk about collapsing populations, the thing that, the thing I love
00:26:56.640 about Malcolm saying 96% of the South Koreans will be gone in a hundred years.
00:27:01.700 That is like the wake up call that people need to hear.
00:27:04.500 But the problem is humans do not think in exponentials, right?
00:27:08.740 We don't think about exponential population growth or exponential population decline.
00:27:13.520 And it won't be until we're like, well down half, halfway down that curve where people
00:27:17.980 say, Oh, I think there's a problem.
00:27:19.580 It's like, you think, right?
00:27:21.340 So I don't know if we're going to find solutions.
00:27:25.100 Oh, like obviously we were using too many resources.
00:27:28.400 Like people, some people will say, Oh, we know the planet is underpopulated.
00:27:31.620 We can have another 10 billion people on it.
00:27:33.680 Yes.
00:27:34.120 But we're going to run out of fish.
00:27:36.180 We're going to run out of topsoil.
00:27:38.080 We're going to run out of these things and we need to allow the earth to renew these things.
00:27:42.220 So AI will provide us virtual workers that'll replace a huge chunk of the population.
00:27:48.500 So I think a lot of these problems will solve themselves.
00:27:51.120 But my biggest worry is that there's going to be a, like a, just how there's like an
00:27:55.400 overshoot with population growth.
00:27:57.360 There's going to be an undershoot with population decline.
00:28:00.160 And my thing is like, how do we stop that undershoot?
00:28:03.400 Again, we're not going to be around to see that, but yeah.
00:28:06.260 But I also think that the person who kind of figures this out will probably be one of the
00:28:10.420 most important people in the next hundred to 200 years.
00:28:13.680 Yeah.
00:28:13.880 Well, I think, I hope it's me then.
00:28:15.980 I want to get that in the history book.
00:28:18.940 No, but I don't know.
00:28:19.800 I do agree that whoever figures this out, I actually think it's more than that.
00:28:23.260 I think multiple people will figure this out for different cultural groups, because I think
00:28:27.840 there's going to be more than one answer.
00:28:29.760 And I think every one of those people who figures this out is going to be one of the most
00:28:33.840 represented thought patterns or cultural groups a hundred years from now.
00:28:37.740 They will define what the future of our species looks like.
00:28:40.480 And I'd also remind people that we're still a species on one planet.
00:28:43.860 All of the cultural changes that happen now for our species will be represented multitudinally
00:28:49.040 across the thousands of planets we hopefully one day colonize in a way that like, if one
00:28:54.700 person a thousand times smarter than me came up with some great idea when we're on a thousand
00:28:58.800 planets, it's never going to spread to all of humanity.
00:29:01.380 So the impact you can have by working on this problem is bigger than any impact our descendants
00:29:08.060 are going to be able to have.
00:29:10.200 Yeah.
00:29:10.660 And I don't think you see the problem with a lot of these communities is they don't necessarily
00:29:14.280 overlap.
00:29:14.820 And this is another thing that this is one of the reasons that probably the main reason
00:29:18.440 I reached out to Malcolm was because Malcolm understands that you can talk about, you can
00:29:23.720 talk to all these groups.
00:29:25.060 And the problem I always find is everyone is just stuck in their silo and they won't talk
00:29:28.880 to anyone else and they won't acknowledge the knowledge of other groups simply because
00:29:33.740 they're so like cliquey.
00:29:35.080 And this is, again, part of that whole Sigma male thing where you don't care about like
00:29:39.360 who's out, which group is the biggest and blah, blah, blah.
00:29:41.880 Right.
00:29:42.200 You're just pushing your own, you're pushing your own knowledge base forward.
00:29:46.600 I think that's one of the reasons that gives me a lot of hope for the movement in the future,
00:29:50.060 because in the future, I think doing what's conformist and what like is conventionally
00:29:55.040 wise is maybe just not going to work like in the face of technology and modernity and
00:30:00.460 groups like Sigma males are more likely to develop cultural and technological innovations
00:30:07.460 that could make it one of the most generative and influential groups.
00:30:12.360 If it doesn't get caught in some kind of masturbatory AI girlfriend, do nothing loop. 0.84
00:30:18.680 And I don't think Sigma is so much about like sex and reproduction. 0.91
00:30:22.320 It's more about just like working, producing, getting ahead financially.
00:30:26.620 So there's not much.
00:30:27.900 So it is focused on like output in the world, which is.
00:30:30.620 Yeah.
00:30:30.980 Yeah.
00:30:31.800 It's not so much about just like retreating into.
00:30:34.800 There's going to be, there are going to be technologies that make each of these subgroups
00:30:38.220 like irrelevant.
00:30:38.920 So for example, when I look at, when I look at the P ways, so right, if you've ever listened 1.00
00:30:44.140 or read the hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy, there's the babble fish, right?
00:30:48.140 You put the babble fish.
00:30:48.940 So right now I've spoken to guys and they're like, they go on dating sites and what they
00:30:54.920 do is they take, they copy paste the response the woman gives them and they put it in AI
00:30:59.780 and then AI comes up with what to say to the woman.
00:31:02.560 So they're like literally like becoming, I would call it like, what's his name?
00:31:07.940 Bergerac.
00:31:08.380 What's his name?
00:31:09.020 I don't know.
00:31:09.580 I know.
00:31:10.120 Cyrano de Bergerac, right?
00:31:11.840 Cyrano de Bergerac.
00:31:12.940 So you have, you create a technology that's like that, that literally translates what a woman 1.00
00:31:16.400 says, and you, and now you have something to say back to her and you could call it the
00:31:19.780 Cyrano because it's like Cyrano de Bergerac.
00:31:22.060 And so imagine every guy walking around on dates with this earpiece.
00:31:25.340 That's like literally feeding them lines to tell the woman back. 0.86
00:31:28.640 So the woman doesn't even know who she's dating anymore. 1.00
00:31:30.600 Is it, is she dating the AI?
00:31:32.120 Is she dating the guy?
00:31:33.040 I don't think that even dating will exist.
00:31:34.800 It's just, we're getting into these really weird places where, you know, like right now
00:31:39.520 you saw Tinder destroy everything in, you know, 2013, 14, it destroyed the sexual marketplace.
00:31:45.120 And now you're going to see these other technologies completely destroy that again.
00:31:49.620 So just for viewers, what he's saying isn't subjective.
00:31:52.940 Statistically, Tinder destroyed the sexual marketplace.
00:31:55.580 And the other thing, you can see this in the data, like sexless rates, relationshipless rates
00:31:59.400 shoot up after Tinder was invented and correlate with its spread and the spread of that model.
00:32:03.480 But the other thing that he mentioned there that I think is really interesting is when
00:32:08.160 we talk about people using the AIs for how they communicate with their partner, especially
00:32:11.680 as we get more and more hooked to AIs, I imagine that's going to be a big part of the argument
00:32:16.140 that the people who are just dating AIs directly use.
00:32:19.240 It's, you're just using somebody as a meat puppet.
00:32:21.900 You're basically dating their AI assistant anyway.
00:32:24.600 Like we just cut out the middleman.
00:32:27.460 We, they may even develop a movement where you are exploiting women or men by dating a
00:32:32.280 real woman or man, but any sort of sexual relationship.
00:32:34.900 Cause I've already seen subcurrents of this is intrinsically exploitative.
00:32:38.760 And the only healthy sexual relationship is when solely was an AI.
00:32:44.400 And then the AI will collect your data and then it'll sell it to it.
00:32:47.700 It's going to get in the AI will generate the perfect image based on what you've looked
00:32:51.760 at in terms of pornography, in terms of who you've made eye contact with.
00:32:55.480 Another thing that no one's really talking about is how AR is going to change things.
00:33:01.660 So imagine now in the sexual marketplace.
00:33:03.780 So you put on your Apple vision pro, right?
00:33:06.680 And now you can, you could be a 25 year old guy and you could find a 55 or 60 year old
00:33:11.840 woman.
00:33:12.260 You could put on the AR glasses and now she looks like a 25 year old woman because the 1.00
00:33:17.100 technology will now digitally de-age her in bed. 1.00
00:33:20.760 You just hope the battery doesn't run out while you're having your orgasm.
00:33:23.360 Well, we're already seeing that with the auto filters on a lot of these things like TikToks
00:33:29.220 and stuff like that.
00:33:30.000 Yes.
00:33:30.560 To the end where when I, you know, when we talk with our younger viewers, body dysmorphia
00:33:35.080 is a major problem in these communities.
00:33:37.360 I think because they have such a misunderstanding of what the average person actually looks like.
00:33:44.800 And this came up in an episode where I said, you want to get rid of your body dysmorphia,
00:33:49.880 go to a mall.
00:33:50.920 If you're in the top 20%, you probably don't have a problem.
00:33:55.600 And Simone said, and the listeners, the viewers in the comments agreed with her.
00:33:59.780 Oh, that doesn't count.
00:34:01.320 That's just comparing yourself to the population.
00:34:04.060 Yeah.
00:34:04.240 What are you comparing yourself to if not the population?
00:34:06.900 Some made up ideal?
00:34:08.300 Yeah.
00:34:08.600 You're making yourself feel good by looking at all the land whales, right?
00:34:13.480 Like it's just...
00:34:14.160 Yeah, they don't count.
00:34:15.660 That's what everyone is.
00:34:17.400 We're in a sea of land whales.
00:34:19.660 No, we are now comparing ourselves to like the filtered perfect angle non-humans that we see online. 0.99
00:34:26.420 But I think that bodes even better.
00:34:27.900 I think I'm really starting to see a future in which like these sex dolls that you're designing actually have a world.
00:34:34.000 Like it could be that like I as a female of the future would never even like I may develop a big attachment to a guy,
00:34:41.240 but I would never want him to actually see me because then he would see physically what I look like.
00:34:46.720 Instead, I do have like my filter and we can have tricks and we can feel all the good stuff.
00:34:51.540 But there's influencers like some of them are older and I'm like, wow, she was really hot when she was like 25, 30.
00:34:59.040 And I'm like, would I get together with her today?
00:35:01.500 No.
00:35:01.960 But if I had AR and I put that on, would I get together with her?
00:35:05.060 Yes.
00:35:05.700 So that would change.
00:35:07.820 And then would she feel okay by doing that?
00:35:10.940 Maybe she'd be like, I like you at this age, so I can just put this filter on.
00:35:14.960 I like how this fictional character looks.
00:35:17.180 I'll just put that on you.
00:35:18.220 Exactly.
00:35:18.800 That would be a great form of cheating that happens in the future where you tell your spouse you're only de-aging them.
00:35:23.920 Oh my God.
00:35:24.800 But you're actually replacing them with another person.
00:35:26.560 And they're like, your setting was on X the entire time you told me this with younger me.
00:35:34.780 How dare you cheat on me with the neighbor while you're with me? 1.00
00:35:37.860 Yeah.
00:35:39.860 We are going to have this.
00:35:41.420 This is a guaranteed problem of the future.
00:35:43.580 No, these are real problems.
00:35:45.840 Like we're saying this and people are like, that's a wacky thing.
00:35:49.820 Guaranteed problem of the future.
00:35:51.320 Look, I had dolls sent to me for free kind of to review and post on my channel.
00:35:56.160 And for a while I was promoting the technology.
00:35:58.520 The problem, there's amazing things with the technology, which I could probably count on one or two fingers, right?
00:36:04.000 And there's all these bad things with the technology, which include things like it weighs 70 pounds.
00:36:09.740 Like you get a workout before you get into bed.
00:36:13.160 Like you're like ready to fall over before you, you're like, imagine changing positions on this thing three or four times.
00:36:18.200 You're out, you're white. 1.00
00:36:19.100 You're like, it's like getting a full workout in the gym.
00:36:21.300 And this is something nobody thinks about.
00:36:23.620 They're like, oh, I want a doll.
00:36:24.940 And then everyone's like, how big is the doll?
00:36:26.340 It's five feet tall and it weighs 70 pounds.
00:36:29.240 So get a full sized one.
00:36:30.500 How much is that going to weigh?
00:36:31.200 80, 90 pounds.
00:36:32.200 Now you're moving an 80, 90 pound doll around.
00:36:34.300 Yeah.
00:36:34.540 You're doll bod. 0.81
00:36:35.880 Yeah. 0.93
00:36:36.300 You're doll bod. 0.81
00:36:38.880 Yes.
00:36:40.180 Yes.
00:36:41.080 All right.
00:36:41.340 I think when I think about this though, I think about the, I think it was with gorillas where like they, they took infant gorillas, just some kind of ape. 0.78
00:36:49.060 And they tried to see what kind of mother surrogate it would connect to.
00:36:53.200 And they had like, yeah, like a wire thing with like milk.
00:36:55.800 I think.
00:36:56.340 Yeah.
00:36:56.560 And they had the warm, fuzzy stuffed animal.
00:36:58.640 And that even though it didn't have milk, the, the babies would go to the warm, fuzzy stuffed animal, not the wireframe with the milk.
00:37:05.600 And I think what we have to do with the future of sex is figure out what for us is the warm, fuzzy.
00:37:13.600 Like people are thinking, oh, we need this like physical giant doll with all this stuff.
00:37:17.980 Maybe what we really need is a haptic suit with all the right inserts, like with a flashlight or with a vibrator.
00:37:24.000 Oh, that's exactly what I was talking about earlier with the, so the, the doll, like the woman you pay for it. 0.95
00:37:28.640 After the service, you would have the suit and it would have all of the different things stimulating your, my biggest thing was like, for me, I don't get necessarily more pleasure from getting pleasure.
00:37:38.700 I get more pleasure from giving pleasure.
00:37:41.100 It's more fulfilling for me. 0.98
00:37:42.760 So for me, when, when I, people are like, oh, I'm going to have sex with the robot. 0.89
00:37:45.800 I'm like, but the robot is not alive there. 0.93
00:37:48.120 I'm not getting anything by giving something to it.
00:37:50.820 But then you talk to younger people, like we're already obsolete.
00:37:54.240 Like I'm in my mid forties.
00:37:55.560 You guys are probably somewhere in your thirties.
00:37:57.140 And you got to look at the 18 to 30 year olds and that's where things are happening.
00:38:02.140 And if 50% of 18 to 30 year old males are either in, not in relationships or don't want relationships, that means that 25, 25 is incel and, and MGTOW.
00:38:12.920 Yeah.
00:38:13.260 So that's like the majority of the population is there.
00:38:15.600 And I'm predicting that you're going to get 70 to 80% MGTOWs slash incels. 0.95
00:38:19.960 And you're going to get maybe 20% at the top that are going to still have sex.
00:38:23.640 But at some point, even that, those, that group, if the technology gets good enough, is going to start walking away.
00:38:28.760 No, what I love about this is you're one of the guys who originally was promoting this movement, growing this movement. 0.84
00:38:35.340 You're still a leader in the movement, but you're here being like, oh shit, what happens when 75% of guys are in this movement? 0.87
00:38:41.160 This is, okay. 0.98
00:38:42.100 This is another thing.
00:38:42.820 Like I was told back in the day, a lot of guys who were promoting this, they said, my whole thing was like, I want to make MGTOW mainstream. 0.71
00:38:49.980 And I did that.
00:38:51.560 I accomplished making it mainstream.
00:38:53.320 And I'm like, maybe that wasn't such a good idea.
00:38:56.220 The illusion was keeping this rickety system.
00:39:00.480 No, but I don't think, I do think the system was intrinsically unpaid support.
00:39:03.680 And I think it was exploitative.
00:39:05.000 And I think calling out an exploitative system is never an immoral action.
00:39:10.540 I think the only way to really see the problem is to see it from outside the system.
00:39:14.800 So you have to go your own way and then look at the sexual marketplace from the outside and then figure out like, oh, because that was why I even got involved in this in the first place.
00:39:23.200 I was involved in a five-year relationship, then a 10-year relationship.
00:39:26.420 And I was like, okay, before I go back into relationships, I need to figure out what's going on.
00:39:31.000 And I started looking for dating advice.
00:39:33.200 And then that's why I found MGTOW.
00:39:35.120 And it was like, oh, this isn't dating advice.
00:39:37.220 This is advice on not to date.
00:39:39.200 And this makes more sense than dating advice.
00:39:41.940 And that's the place I came from anyway.
00:39:45.140 Okay, Simone, I have to go pick up the kids now.
00:39:47.220 It was a really big pleasure speaking with you.
00:39:49.520 I would love to do this again at some point.
00:39:51.560 So hoping you might be up for more conversation.
00:39:54.060 Yeah, like just pick a topic and we can go.
00:39:56.060 Oh, nice.
00:39:56.860 Sweet.
00:39:57.320 Cool.
00:39:58.340 Yes.
00:39:58.920 All right.
00:39:59.240 Then more soon.
00:40:00.120 And thank you so much.
00:40:01.080 It was great.
00:40:02.340 Awesome.
00:40:02.880 Thank you.
00:40:03.240 Thank you.
00:40:03.260 Thank you.
00:40:03.280 Thank you.