Based Camp - April 09, 2025


Ancient Roman Pronatalism： The Last Time We Failed to Solve Fertility Collapse


Episode Stats


Length

37 minutes

Words per minute

185.95837

Word count

7,049

Sentence count

681

Harmful content

Misogyny

23

sentences flagged

Toxicity

56

sentences flagged

Hate speech

34

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Julius Caesar was a Roman emperor who died in the first century CE. He was known for his desire for Roman citizens to marry and have children. But did he really have a problem with women not having children? And did he have a solution to the problem? To find out, Simone and I talk to historian Dio Cassius.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.960 Hello, Simone! Today we are going to be talking about ancient Roman pronatalism.
00:00:06.640 Oh, the failed kind.
00:00:08.820 Right? Many people have heard of Rome as, and they've heard of like Augustus being concerned about falling fertility rates among Roman elites.
00:00:17.760 We've heard that he put in laws to try to prevent this. We've heard, oh, this is mirrored with our current societal collapse.
00:00:23.700 And this is a pretense of the destruction of a global empire in the same way people saw it as a pretense of the destruction of the Roman empire.
00:00:30.000 Right.
00:00:30.300 Even though it wasn't. That happened a long time after this particular concern.
00:00:33.220 But, I mean, it kind of was, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We'll see.
00:00:36.760 But I was like, wait, what were those laws? What actually happened in Rome during this period?
00:00:41.100 What did people of the period have to say about this? How low did the fertility rate of the Roman elite actually get?
00:00:46.060 And I'll also start by saying Rome's going through this again.
00:00:48.860 Italy right now has a fertility rate of only 1.18. That means every 100 Italians, there's only going to be 20 great-grandchildren.
00:00:54.200 We are looking at a complete collapse of Italian civilization likely within our lifetimes, which is going to be really good. 1.00
00:01:00.840 Good point. Yeah, we're back to square one.
00:01:04.600 And this also causes a lot of problems, like for Catholicism, because if Italy is no longer Italian or Catholic anymore, you know, what happens to the Vatican?
00:01:13.500 Tough, tough world we might be entering.
00:01:16.360 But I think they're going to get it together. I think they're going to get it together.
00:01:19.140 I have faith.
00:01:19.820 So we'll start here talking about Augustus, okay?
00:01:23.480 So Augustus used his platform to urge Romans to marry and have children, framing it as a civic duty.
00:01:28.600 In a famous speech recorded by historian Dio Cassius, he said,
00:01:32.600 If we could survive without a wife, citizens of Rome, all of us, would do without that nuisance. 0.99
00:01:38.540 But since nature has so decreed that we cannot manage comfortably with them nor live in any way without them,
00:01:46.000 So we must plan for our lasting preservation rather than for our temporary pleasure.
00:01:50.700 That's amazing. Okay, yeah.
00:01:52.840 That is awful.
00:01:54.640 We needed to have Augustus at NatalCon so all the journalists could be quoting Augustus.
00:01:59.980 Oh yeah, he would be the clickbait. He would be the, yeah, the soundbite generator for NatalCon.
00:02:06.240 The soundbite generator for modern journalists.
00:02:08.340 Wives, they're awful, but I mean, you gotta put up with it. 1.00
00:02:11.760 You gotta put up with it. 0.88
00:02:12.580 Just like colonoscopies and wives, necessary. 1.00
00:02:14.780 Not exactly a view. I'm not going to say, like, that's a view I would have given to Romans.
00:02:19.620 Like, sat them down and been like, okay, it's going to be terrible.
00:02:22.580 It's going to be the worst thing ever. Ugh, in women. 1.00
00:02:25.580 I mean, at least Trump, you know, is more like, man, you're so lucky.
00:02:28.440 Yeah, Augustus was really not selling it, like, at all.
00:02:32.060 Like, you gotta do it. It sucks, but... 0.96
00:02:35.000 But it's your duty. 0.99
00:02:36.220 Yeah, no wonder. This is doomed from the very start.
00:02:39.020 For the emperor.
00:02:39.720 You don't say for the queen, you know.
00:02:41.880 Yeah, yeah. Lie back and think of England, or Rome, in this case.
00:02:46.440 So this quote reflects his view that marriage, though challenging, was essential for Rome's survival.
00:02:51.000 He also praised fathers of large families and criticized the childless, emphasizing the importance of producing heirs to maintain Rome's strengths on the duty of procreation.
00:03:00.680 He said,
00:03:02.500 You have shown yourself to be mindful of the continued existence of our race, while these others have not.
00:03:08.320 Dio Cassius, book 56.
00:03:09.740 Spoken to married men with children, this quote praises them for fulfilling their civic duty, while implicitly criticizing unmarried and childless for neglecting it.
00:03:18.280 This is so much worse than J.D. Vance.
00:03:20.040 You have shown yourself to be mindful to the continued existence of our race, while the others have not.
00:03:26.200 Elvis Catley is a lot more catchy.
00:03:28.120 I just, I just need to just have quotes from him, like, in my back pocket to freak people out.
00:03:34.720 Even mindful about the preservation of our race.
00:03:37.120 I really appreciate that.
00:03:38.740 And, you know, some others have not.
00:03:42.640 Gosh.
00:03:43.580 Really, really.
00:03:44.600 I mean, he was a very smart, successful man on many fronts.
00:03:48.660 This is making me doubt his competence.
00:03:51.120 Maybe this was late stage Augustus, you know?
00:03:53.660 Like, no.
00:03:55.980 Augustus on childlessness.
00:03:58.100 According to Dio Cassius, Augustus criticized Romans for failing to reproduce, even when it was easier for them in earlier times.
00:04:05.500 Quote, how wrathful would the Romans who were Romulus's followers be after they had gotten children, even by their enemy's wives?
00:04:14.860 You will not beget them, even of women who are citizens. 1.00
00:04:18.820 Oh.
00:04:19.840 Oh.
00:04:21.140 My goodness.
00:04:22.540 This guy, the way he talks about women, he's like, they begat children by grape. 0.98
00:04:28.660 You won't even do it with your own wives. 0.91
00:04:31.560 Like, what a lute.
00:04:33.100 Like, on the pedestal, graping your enemy's wives.
00:04:37.100 Where he is down here, not very.
00:04:39.940 You know, I'm seeing the problem here.
00:04:41.860 He had just two kids.
00:04:43.480 He himself was a reproductive failure.
00:04:47.040 Two surviving kids.
00:04:47.140 Five kids.
00:04:48.060 Yeah, but.
00:04:49.260 I get it.
00:04:49.860 But yeah, he was below repopulation rate.
00:04:51.260 Yeah, yeah.
00:04:51.920 So, yeah, I know.
00:04:54.260 He, a bad guy.
00:04:55.140 I keep in mind, a lot of people get this wrong about repopulation rate.
00:04:57.760 They think the 2.1 is about people dying at different rates.
00:05:01.300 It's not.
00:05:02.000 It's about differences in sex when people are born.
00:05:05.700 You know, you get more males than females born.
00:05:08.800 And so that's, that's why.
00:05:11.940 Nothing else.
00:05:12.540 So it doesn't account for that.
00:05:14.580 So if he had his other kids die, he really was below repopulation rate in terms of his
00:05:18.580 own fertility, which I think shows, you know, even if the emperor can't, can't make it happen.
00:05:22.880 Yeah.
00:05:23.160 Well, I mean, he wasn't a believer.
00:05:24.620 He was not himself a believer.
00:05:26.660 Trump, a lot of kids.
00:05:27.940 J.D.
00:05:28.200 Vance, three kids.
00:05:29.040 Well, if I was his wife, I would not maybe be super interested in procreating with a guy
00:05:32.880 who's like, oh, they just got to grape their way to reproduction.
00:05:36.760 Really?
00:05:37.120 And we can't even motivate it with our wives. 1.00
00:05:39.700 The duty of it.
00:05:40.440 I mean, I know our wives are terrible, but the duty of it all. 0.98
00:05:43.340 Oh, my gosh.
00:05:44.280 Yeah.
00:05:44.500 Wow.
00:05:45.480 Wow.
00:05:45.920 So Augustus introduced key legislation.
00:05:48.160 Didn't she set him up, though?
00:05:49.600 What?
00:05:50.140 Like, sexually.
00:05:52.860 She kind of hooked him up, didn't she?
00:05:55.080 Who hooked him up?
00:05:55.860 Remembering this, Augustus's wife.
00:05:58.280 Hooked him up with other people?
00:05:59.480 Yeah.
00:06:00.540 Maybe.
00:06:00.860 I'm not remembering this wrong.
00:06:02.440 I've like read a couple of his biographies, but like back in like 2018.
00:06:05.540 So it's been a long time.
00:06:06.920 All I did in post of, she did.
00:06:08.540 Yeah.
00:06:08.760 I couldn't find any evidence of this when I asked AI.
00:06:10.960 But I love that you're the type of history-obsessed perv who would know that.
00:06:16.740 But you would like, well, you would think if that were the case, he'd be a little more charitable, you know, if she was a wing woman. 0.99
00:06:22.280 And yet he's still, you know, that would be in bird culture.
00:06:27.300 I know that his sister, right, was the one who talked about using fertility, being pregnant as contraception. 0.65
00:06:33.360 Oh, because her ship was carrying a load.
00:06:35.740 Yeah, I know to only, you know, take the sailors when the ship is carrying a load.
00:06:39.140 Yeah.
00:06:40.960 All right.
00:06:41.560 It works.
00:06:42.500 Clever.
00:06:43.100 Never heard that one before.
00:06:44.640 Clever girl.
00:06:46.060 Underrated.
00:06:46.740 Underrated.
00:06:46.820 Yes.
00:06:47.800 All right.
00:06:48.940 Augustus introduced key legislation to promote marriage and procreation, particularly among the upper classes.
00:06:54.860 Lex Julia de Martianus Ordeasio, 18th BC.
00:06:59.460 The purpose was to encourage marriage among Roman citizens, especially the upper classes.
00:07:02.840 The requirements, men over 25 and women over 20 were expected to marry.
00:07:06.520 Unmarried individuals, celibates, I guess it means like celibates, faced restrictions on inheritance, detailed below.
00:07:14.220 Childless married couples, Orbe, were also penalized, though less severely.
00:07:18.760 And I'm totally actually okay with legislation like that.
00:07:21.660 Lex, papayai, papay, 9 AD.
00:07:24.920 I mean, if you're not paying to the future the debt that you owe the past, then it makes sense that you bear some additional costs.
00:07:32.260 Yourself.
00:07:33.180 Yeah, you pay it yourself.
00:07:34.380 And I think it actually will become normalized around the world by the time we die.
00:07:38.920 It's assuming we live for another 40, 50 years.
00:07:40.900 I don't think so, because you can only do that when you know that that person's, like, it's unfair if a person produces children who then are net welfare drains.
00:07:53.060 So I feel like the Robin Hanson tax bond thing would have to be in there a little bit more.
00:07:58.400 Well, yeah, what you might do is they have to produce children that are – no, I don't think so.
00:08:03.140 I think even just, like, the harsh tax for not being married is good, because we know that a lot of the childless thing is just people aren't getting married fast enough or enough.
00:08:12.280 Yeah, and when you're not married, you know, your kid is at a disadvantage too.
00:08:15.880 I mean, I imagine that there is a correlation between –
00:08:17.380 No, no, no, but the point here being is even within his new laws, unmarried people paid a very big fine, married people without kids paid a smaller fine, and then people with kids didn't pay a fine at all.
00:08:29.120 And so it's creating an – it's like a graded incentive with the first part of the grade being getting married.
00:08:37.540 And I think that if you implemented a pernatalist policy, that should be the first part of the grading system, not the first kid you have.
00:08:44.120 Sure, yeah, okay.
00:08:45.920 But yeah.
00:08:47.320 And then Lex Papayae, 9 AD, purpose, strengthen the Lex Julia by refining penalties and adding incentives for having children.
00:08:55.820 Requirements reinforce the expectation of marriage within the same age ranges.
00:09:00.500 So it also created more penalty for people who married people who are much younger than them, which –
00:09:05.760 That's so good.
00:09:06.980 I wonder if they intuitively or even technically knew that there were lower odds of healthy children when you had that age gap.
00:09:12.740 Yeah, it's really bad for older men to marry younger women from a genetic perspective.
00:09:16.440 Like, you shouldn't do that.
00:09:17.220 That shouldn't be your going plan. 0.96
00:09:18.220 Or if you plan on doing that, at least freeze your sperm. 0.99
00:09:21.100 Guys, guys. 0.99
00:09:22.740 Penalties.
00:09:23.680 Further restricted inheritance for unmarried and childless.
00:09:26.540 See below.
00:09:27.220 Incentives.
00:09:28.040 Parents with three or more children gain privileges, such as for men, faster advancement in political careers.
00:09:32.940 For women, legal independence under the I.S. Trumanian Liberato. 1.00
00:09:35.940 Liberato, right, of three children.
00:09:39.700 So this basically meant that you could – all right, so hold on.
00:09:42.340 This requires some explanation of Roman law.
00:09:44.480 Women couldn't own property themselves in Rome. 0.99
00:09:47.920 So, like, if you were an unmarried woman, you often couldn't even inherit your father's estate.
00:09:53.280 But if you had kids?
00:09:53.700 Two kids.
00:09:54.800 But if you had at least three kids, you could.
00:09:56.880 Hey, that's great.
00:09:59.040 Okay, because I know one of the things discussed in the spread of Christianity was that – I mean, Christianity spread a lot because women finally were treated with some respect. 0.87
00:10:08.120 Their children weren't killed when they weren't desired or seen as fit enough.
00:10:13.560 They loved that.
00:10:14.380 At least here's one thing.
00:10:16.880 One thing that Romans did.
00:10:18.100 We point out that Tacticus, one of the things that he complained about the Jews –
00:10:21.220 Tacticus?
00:10:22.340 Tacticus?
00:10:23.200 Oh, okay.
00:10:23.740 Complained about the Jews. 0.95
00:10:25.160 He said, when he was describing all the horrifying things that Jews do alongside, you know, circumcisions and their demonic practices, he's like, they even prevent the exposure of children. 1.00
00:10:36.740 Oh, how dare they not kill babies? 0.98
00:10:39.420 It's not drowned babies. 1.00
00:10:41.040 Those monstrous Jews. 1.00
00:10:42.360 Those monstrous monsters. 1.00
00:10:43.440 Everybody knows you just drowned babies. 0.98
00:10:45.260 I love that it's like a complete inversion of blood libel. 1.00
00:10:49.940 This belief that Jews are evil because they're, like, killing babies. 0.99
00:10:53.260 Yeah. 1.00
00:10:53.440 It's Jews are evil because they're not killing their babies. 1.00
00:10:55.760 That is – yeah, man. 1.00
00:10:56.600 Like, you can't win as a Jew, can you? 1.00
00:10:58.440 Oh, you're not killing – no, now you're killing the babies. 1.00
00:11:00.900 Whatever with the babies. 0.98
00:11:02.300 When killing babies was normal, you who were doing the opposite. 0.75
00:11:05.880 I'll take care of this. 0.99
00:11:06.880 Hey, Clara, there's a Jew outside trying to poison a well. 1.00
00:11:11.460 Ah! 0.97
00:11:12.360 Oh, my God!
00:11:13.980 Get away from that well, Hebrew! 1.00
00:11:16.120 What?
00:11:16.580 I'm putting in water purification tablets.
00:11:19.040 Spank, you tricked me! 1.00
00:11:20.820 And it wasn't even a conspiracy with Tacticus.
00:11:23.240 I love it.
00:11:24.040 I love it.
00:11:24.400 I can imagine somebody being like, well, I don't know.
00:11:26.120 You know, this seems like an anti-Semitic conspiracy. 0.90
00:11:29.060 Surely Jews expose some of their babies. 1.00
00:11:31.720 You just mean they expose them at a lower rate, right?
00:11:34.580 It's like, no, they actually, like, never do this.
00:11:37.460 I guess you could say that they expose their foreskins to trash cans if they're male. 1.00
00:11:43.240 They expose their what?
00:11:44.200 I don't understand.
00:11:44.600 Something's not making it out.
00:11:46.180 Foreskins. 1.00
00:11:46.780 The foreskins.
00:11:47.580 There's something that's being heard.
00:11:48.620 Oh, yeah.
00:11:49.040 Yeah.
00:11:50.120 Anyway.
00:11:50.320 So, and then the faster advancement in political careers, I think, is what we're going to begin
00:11:54.740 to see in the CCP.
00:11:55.900 I assume it's already, like, a shadow of a thing, is that you're not going to be promoted
00:12:00.500 quickly in the CCP if you don't have lots of kids.
00:12:03.600 I think this only makes sense in the totalitarian states that are likely going to replace our
00:12:07.740 existing democracies.
00:12:09.060 If you want to learn more about that, you can watch our recent video on why demographic
00:12:13.840 collapse makes monarchy inevitable.
00:12:15.560 The gist being is that as elderly make up a larger and larger, specifically the elderly
00:12:21.300 that are living off of the system, become a majority population within a country, they
00:12:25.380 would never vote themselves less incentives, which eventually collapses the state because
00:12:29.760 the majority of the population is living off of the state and the majority of the population
00:12:33.160 controls who's elected president.
00:12:35.300 And so the state just ends up collapsing.
00:12:37.740 And then you need a system that doesn't favor the majority view.
00:12:43.040 And as, you know, in a nascent state, maybe the charter cities end up taking off in one
00:12:49.280 of, like, our governance system that was covered in the Guardian ends up becoming a dominant
00:12:52.560 governance system.
00:12:53.480 But it's just as likely that we end up in monarchies or dictatorships.
00:12:57.460 And it's just important that we're on the right side.
00:12:59.460 And having lots of kids will likely get you there.
00:13:01.600 So funny.
00:13:02.240 We're heading directly towards the Handmaid's Tale outcome.
00:13:05.380 And the progressives are taking us there.
00:13:08.620 Hand and foot skipping into that future.
00:13:10.800 They're hot for it, Malcolm.
00:13:11.520 I don't know what else to say.
00:13:12.660 They are hot for it.
00:13:13.760 See our video on that.
00:13:14.680 We don't want it.
00:13:15.460 They seem to be like, oh, no.
00:13:21.000 Oh, hot conservative man.
00:13:23.160 Please don't breed me in front of a jealous upper class woman who you just prefer me to 1.00
00:13:31.380 and need me so much more.
00:13:33.880 And she just has to fume that your desire for me is so overwhelming.
00:13:39.400 Oh, my God.
00:13:40.440 Okay.
00:13:40.880 I can't.
00:13:41.340 I'm going to vomit.
00:13:43.720 It's gross. 0.89
00:13:44.420 It's gross.
00:13:44.940 And then they cosplay in public and do their whole little...
00:13:47.460 The Handmaid's Tale costume is turning into the new go-to protest attire for women. 0.88
00:13:52.380 No, I don't want to kink shame. 1.00
00:13:53.660 I just...
00:13:54.260 But, like, it bothers me.
00:13:56.320 Because, yeah.
00:13:56.960 There's children that...
00:13:57.720 I keep trying to seek out evidence that it's not true.
00:14:00.380 And then I keep seeing evidence that, like...
00:14:03.320 We go over the episode just like a preponderance of statistical evidence that it's true.
00:14:07.080 You know it doesn't matter what our faces look like.
00:14:09.980 As long as we're fertile. 0.88
00:14:14.480 You're bad.
00:14:15.920 Yeah, but not too bad. 0.92
00:14:17.300 Otherwise, you go...
00:14:18.080 Guess what I did last night.
00:14:22.940 Ate your rations in silence and cried into your straw bed?
00:14:26.320 Yes, classically. 1.00
00:14:28.420 Well, I had sex with a married couple. 1.00
00:14:31.880 Oh, so did I. 0.81
00:14:34.000 Who would have guessed we'd be having three ways in our 30s?
00:14:38.940 Anyway.
00:14:40.120 Property inheritance restrictions.
00:14:41.780 So I wanted to know more about this.
00:14:43.200 I'm, like, reading, okay, there's restrictions.
00:14:45.440 Describe, right?
00:14:46.960 The laws impose significant limits on inheritance rights for unmarried and childless.
00:14:51.200 Using property as a tool to enforce compliance.
00:14:53.980 Here's how much inheritance was restricted for unmarried celibates.
00:14:57.600 Restriction.
00:14:58.080 Unmarried individuals were generally prohibited from inheriting under wills,
00:15:01.320 except from close relatives, e.g. parents or siblings.
00:15:04.320 Really interesting.
00:15:05.460 So they could still inherit from their parents or siblings.
00:15:07.920 Like, if it's, like, really, like, felt unjust that they weren't inheriting.
00:15:11.200 Sure.
00:15:11.500 But other than that, you couldn't get, like, a, I really liked this guy,
00:15:14.680 or I consider him like a son to me, or, you know, et cetera.
00:15:18.740 You couldn't inherit from them. 0.98
00:15:19.660 Yeah, so, you know, hypocrite Octavian. 0.97
00:15:23.580 Yes, he did inherit from... 0.95
00:15:25.740 I'm really, like...
00:15:28.000 We named our son Octavian.
00:15:29.400 I love this guy, but I'm getting...
00:15:31.600 I'm just my patience.
00:15:32.360 You know, Octavian is such a dope character in history.
00:15:34.480 You wish to be consul.
00:15:37.220 It's a vanity, I know.
00:15:39.500 But I think I deserve it.
00:15:41.060 And it would please my men.
00:15:42.780 You're 19.
00:15:44.540 You're too young to be senator.
00:15:46.460 Leave alone consul, my dear boy.
00:15:49.320 You have no experience.
00:15:50.780 You have no connections.
00:15:52.880 He has an army.
00:15:54.980 We'll see if it's possible.
00:15:55.980 If you were to be consul, you must promise to be guided by my consul.
00:16:05.120 It is an office of high complexity.
00:16:07.460 And I am well aware of my inexperience.
00:16:09.960 I will not utter a word without your advice, your consent.
00:16:13.680 If you have not seen...
00:16:15.120 This is his one failing.
00:16:16.580 Everyone gets their foibles.
00:16:17.760 I get it.
00:16:18.560 If you watch this show, and you ever take recommendations on things to watch from this show,
00:16:22.860 and you're like, oh, sometimes you talk about an anime or whatever.
00:16:25.840 No.
00:16:26.180 The number one, I'd suggest, is the Rome miniseries TV show.
00:16:30.480 Oh, man.
00:16:31.400 If you like the show, you will likely really like that TV series.
00:16:35.760 The Roman people are not crying out for clean elections.
00:16:39.020 They're crying out for jobs.
00:16:41.100 They're crying out for clean water, for food, for stability and peace.
00:16:45.940 You can do great things for your people.
00:16:49.440 You can help save the Republic.
00:16:51.820 I'd say if you like the original Gladiator, you'll like that TV series.
00:16:59.820 Yeah, that's fair.
00:17:02.220 That's fair.
00:17:03.020 Actually, I don't think I've ever heard a single person say I did not like the Rome miniseries.
00:17:08.640 Have you?
00:17:09.200 That's a no.
00:17:09.820 No, I haven't.
00:17:10.300 But also, I haven't found that many people who watched it.
00:17:12.680 But I think what's interesting here, and this is just what he missed, clearly.
00:17:17.920 And this just shows up in his statements.
00:17:19.560 It shows up in the legislation, largely.
00:17:23.700 That statutory, you know, money-related stuff, it's just not enough to move the needle.
00:17:31.540 You have to change the culture.
00:17:32.820 Because when you contrast these Roman birth rates with early Christian birth rates, like, 0.94
00:17:36.480 it just, it's super clear in this historical case, at least, that we've pointed out plenty of other contemporary examples of this, that trying to manipulate people using money or other carrots and sticks just isn't.
00:17:55.220 So, yeah, for more on this, by the way, you can see our video, Was Early Christianity Really More Moral?
00:18:00.980 It goes over why early Christian birth rates were so much higher and presents an argument that Christianity became the dominant religion, not through conversions primarily, but just through having a higher survival and birth rate.
00:18:11.080 But, to keep going here, mechanism.
00:18:13.800 If a tester left property to an unmarried person, that bequest became catacomb, forfeit to the state or to relatives with children.
00:18:22.720 So, even if you wanted to give your property to someone, it would automatically then go to the state or to other relatives who had children who placed claim on it.
00:18:29.240 Example, if a well bequeathed 100,000 sestases to an unmarried friend, the friend could not inherit.
00:18:36.000 The sum would instead go to the tester's relatives with children, or if none existed, the state.
00:18:40.940 For childless married, or be.
00:18:44.180 Restrictions, childless married couples could inherit, but only half of what was bequeathed to them.
00:18:49.140 The other half became catacomb, following the above rules.
00:18:52.960 So, somebody could try to give you money, but it would go to other people or the state.
00:18:57.100 Mechanism, the forfeited portion would go to the state.
00:18:59.240 Later, those with children.
00:19:00.580 For parents, those with children faced no such restrictions and enjoyed full inheritance rights, plus additional social and legal benefits, if they had three or more children.
00:19:09.780 I actually like the idea of re-bringing this in.
00:19:13.820 No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
00:19:15.580 I really, really, really think it should be progressive income tax breaks after you have more than two kids. 0.92
00:19:21.760 What they're doing here, and this is just so dumb, is they're making it all about inheritance. 0.67
00:19:26.680 It's about this lump sum later. 0.96
00:19:28.420 And it's clear that now and probably in the past.
00:19:32.620 Well, you can do both.
00:19:33.680 The reason why inheritance is so powerful is because it conceptualizes the purpose of kids of paying to the future the debt that you owe the past.
00:19:41.340 If you're not paying to the future, then you do not deserve any of the accumulated wealth of the past who did make this sacrifice.
00:19:49.940 You are cashing in on society, basically.
00:19:53.940 I get the poeticness.
00:19:55.540 It's just that people don't...
00:19:57.680 The poeticness of people contextualize.
00:20:00.300 And keep in mind, it overly motivates people with betters to have more kids because they are going to be the people set to inherit the most money.
00:20:09.100 So, sorry, not that human gene pools are different.
00:20:14.960 I'm just saying that if you're viewing pernatalism from the perspective of likelihood to pay into the tax system and you use that as better, these people are more likely to pay into the tax system more money if they have more money, you know, sort of riding on that.
00:20:28.840 And I'd put it at replacement rate.
00:20:29.940 If you're not at replacement rate, you can only inherit half of the estate and the other half goes to the state or relatives who have above replacement kids.
00:20:36.940 But if you are above replacement rate, then you can't inherit the full amount.
00:20:39.220 I'd note that the other reason why the inheritance law is so much better than just the progressive tax break is it puts a strong motivation to get married and have kids earlier because there's this risk that, oh, well, I was planning to have kids, but my parents died before then.
00:20:54.120 Oh, oh, yeah.
00:20:55.240 What if they kick the bucket unexpectedly and then you lose everything?
00:20:59.160 Yes, so you sort of have this constant gamble every year you're not getting married.
00:21:04.120 Yeah.
00:21:06.060 And what it might do, the way I would likely structure it, is the money goes into an escrow for like five years after the person dies to give you time to get married.
00:21:15.360 Or if you die before the age of, let's say, 23, it goes into escrow until five years after 23 to give you time to find someone to marry.
00:21:24.600 Or if you die when your children are in the age of minority, you should wait until they're at least 25 before the money gets forfeit. 0.64
00:21:35.280 That's exactly what I just said.
00:21:36.760 I thought you were saying that applied to older people.
00:21:40.360 Like if you're in-
00:21:40.780 No, I'm saying it applies to older people and people under the age of 23.
00:21:43.140 So you get five years after you turn 23.
00:21:44.980 So even more than you turn 25.
00:21:46.960 Yeah.
00:21:47.280 So 28, it goes into escrow if the parents kick the bucket before 23.
00:21:52.740 And then if it's after 23, you get a five-year escrow period to find a spouse and start having kids.
00:22:00.180 Size of the fines.
00:22:01.120 Contrary to modern notions of fines, Augustus' laws did not impose direct monetary penalties, e.g. fix some paid as a tax.
00:22:08.460 Instead, the financial consequences were indirect, embedded in the loss of inheritance rights.
00:22:12.920 There is no clear evidence of a specific tax like the as uximas, celibacy tax, under Augustus.
00:22:18.620 Such measures may have emerged later.
00:22:20.980 Can you imagine an incel tax today?
00:22:23.440 Right, an incel tax to add insult to injury, right?
00:22:25.780 Yeah, seriously.
00:22:26.500 Effective financial penalty for the unmarried, the complete inability to inherit under most wills, could represent a massive loss, depending on the size of the estate.
00:22:36.560 For example, losing 100,000 sesquic bequest was the equivalent to a fine amount.
00:22:42.840 And additional disadvantages.
00:22:44.600 Unmarried men were also barred from certain public events and offices, indirectly affecting their wealth and status.
00:22:49.600 And keep in mind, for Rome, this would have caused the most noble families to have an additional incentive to get married and have kids early.
00:22:55.680 Oh, yeah.
00:22:56.240 Well, but it didn't work.
00:22:58.300 Essential reason to do this.
00:23:00.980 Because you lose, basically, noble status and privileges if you don't.
00:23:04.740 But it didn't work.
00:23:06.380 It didn't work.
00:23:07.140 Yeah, I know.
00:23:07.920 Literary observations.
00:23:09.160 Roman writers commented on the trend.
00:23:11.340 For example, Tacticus, a historian in writing in the 2nd century AD, noted the, quote-unquote, childless sterilists of the upper classes and linked it to a decline in noble families.
00:23:20.220 Now, I note here, when you say it didn't work, I mean, I think we can see why it didn't work.
00:23:23.900 It's because you have this strong counterpressure of women are the worst, misogyny we've seen. 0.99
00:23:27.860 Misogynistic societies generally really struggle to breed it above repopulation rate when they're in periods of wealth.
00:23:34.500 Misogyny only really works when you're in periods of, you know, economic disadvantage and unadvanced economic systems.
00:23:42.400 Does it even work then?
00:23:43.680 I mean, I feel like women...
00:23:45.540 Yeah, it does.
00:23:46.060 It works within, like, ultra-Orthodox Jewish communities.
00:23:48.720 It works within ultra-Orthodox Muslim communities.
00:23:51.660 You know, they do have higher fertility rates.
00:23:53.380 They are lessering now, and I think that they may...
00:23:58.360 No, I think they'll always stay okay so long as they don't engage with technology.
00:24:03.060 Adoption practices.
00:24:04.280 The elite frequently resorted to adoption to secure heirs, indicating a shortage of biological children.
00:24:09.000 This was a common workaround for families unable to produce enough offspring to continue their lineage.
00:24:14.240 Anecdotes.
00:24:15.580 Here are some specific examples that highlight the fertility struggles of prominent Roman elites.
00:24:20.360 Augustus' family.
00:24:22.140 Despite his push for procreation, Augustus himself had only one biological child, Julia, from his marriage with Scribonia.
00:24:28.660 Julia had five children, but political turmoil and purges limited their survival and succession.
00:24:33.860 Augustus adopted his stepson, Tiberius, as his heir, reflecting how his own family's unlimited fertility.
00:24:41.020 The Claudian family... 0.50
00:24:41.820 That's a big kind of failure, man.
00:24:43.800 She had five... 0.99
00:24:44.780 You haven't had five kids yet, okay?
00:24:46.400 No, but I mean, like, that your succession...
00:24:50.360 As you're, like, sort of starting out this hereditary line, is your stepson, who also just didn't turn out to be that great of an emperor, even though his name is so good.
00:25:00.440 It's such a shame.
00:25:01.460 I don't know.
00:25:01.960 I'm really frustrated about it.
00:25:03.620 I'm very sorry.
00:25:03.980 I like Tiberius as a name for a kid.
00:25:05.480 I know, but he didn't do a very good job, and that frustrates me.
00:25:09.580 You don't get to ruin a good name like that, you know what I mean?
00:25:11.640 The Claudian family.
00:25:13.960 The Jens Claudia, a powerful aristocratic clan, also faced challenges.
00:25:17.140 Emperor Claudius, 41 to 45 AD, had four children across his marriages, but two died young, and his heirs were often adopted or from other lines, showing the difficulty of maintaining direct descent.
00:25:29.740 Cicero's family...
00:25:30.340 Here's this other thing, though, and I think this is important.
00:25:32.440 There could also be kind of this unstated issue of kids kind of hating their parents.
00:25:37.800 Like, I'm not getting, you know, the...
00:25:40.980 Oh, yeah, a lot of Roman emperors had a lot of kids who were, like, party animals or hated them or whatever.
00:25:44.780 Yeah, or, like, who...
00:25:45.880 Wasn't it Nero who had these amazing attempts to kill his mother?
00:25:48.800 That was Nero, right?
00:25:49.560 Yes, he did.
00:25:50.380 One of my favorite Nero attempts is he sent his mother...
00:25:54.680 And I actually think, I really want to make a comedy that's like, you know, the Catherine the Great show?
00:25:59.740 Oh, yeah, but this is just about Nero trying to kill his mother.
00:26:02.240 What about Nero and his mom?
00:26:05.060 Yeah.
00:26:05.240 Because I think it would be absolutely hilarious, one of these shows about, like, just horrible people.
00:26:10.660 Everyone around him was the worst conceivable human you could imagine.
00:26:14.820 My favorite example of this is he set his mom's boat out, and he broke it in a way before it went out so it would crack when she got out into deeper waters.
00:26:25.500 Yeah.
00:26:25.840 And she was out with a servant who was rowing her, so the boat cracks.
00:26:30.680 And her female servant, in an attempt to save herself, because she, too, was a terrible person.
00:26:36.520 She, too, was a terrible person.
00:26:37.480 Like, save me!
00:26:38.560 I'm the emperor's mother!
00:26:40.740 I'm the emperor's.
00:26:41.320 And they killed her, I think, with an oar, right?
00:26:43.180 Yeah, the rescuers went out and beat her to death with an oar, because that's what they were told to do with the mother. 1.00
00:26:49.700 But the mother, being smarter, lets the idiot servant, save me! 1.00
00:26:57.600 Save me! 1.00
00:26:58.580 I'm the real empress! 0.66
00:27:00.480 And it's just, like, comeuppance and comeuppance for everyone being a terrible human. 1.00
00:27:06.160 Garbage people. 1.00
00:27:07.200 Yes. 1.00
00:27:07.800 It's so crazy. 1.00
00:27:09.700 Garbage. 0.99
00:27:09.940 Anyway, yeah, like, there's this also common theme in Roman dramas of inter-family conflict. 0.96
00:27:19.120 I don't think they had good mechanisms for passing culture on to their kids.
00:27:23.720 Yeah.
00:27:24.000 Because, likely, what happened is, similar to today, memetic viruses had arose within these communities that benefited from turning children against their parents.
00:27:33.340 And many of these viruses used hedonism to pull them out.
00:27:36.040 And so the question is, is how do you motivate, you know, something that can, you know, withstand this?
00:27:41.820 Yeah.
00:27:42.480 So, anyway, Cicero's family.
00:27:43.740 Marcus Tullius Cicero, a leading statement in the Republic, died 43 B.C., had just two children, Marcus and Tullia.
00:27:49.680 His son, Marcus, had no heirs, and Tullia died young, ending Cicero's direct line.
00:27:54.200 This reflects a pattern of small families among the elite.
00:27:56.840 And keep in mind, many of these people were, like, ultra-elite who we're talking about here.
00:27:59.920 They have no business having families that are this small.
00:28:02.460 Yeah.
00:28:02.820 These cases illustrate how even the most prominent Romans struggled to reproduce and sustain large families, often relying on adoption or facing lineage extinction.
00:28:11.240 So I asked it to estimate the TFR within the Roman elite.
00:28:14.380 It's a rough estimate.
00:28:15.140 Scholarly studies suggest TFR among the Roman elite may have been 1.5 to 2 children per woman, which is below the replacement rate of approximately 2.1 needed to maintain a population without external growth.
00:28:25.940 In contrast, pre-industrial societies typically had TFRs at 4 to 6 children per woman, making the elite's rate strikingly low, influencing factors.
00:28:33.640 High child mortality, up to 50% of children in ancient Rome may have died before adulthood, meaning even families with high births might have seen few survivals.
00:28:41.400 Late marriages, elite men, often married in their 30s, and women, though married younger, might have had fewer fertile years with older husbands.
00:28:51.840 And this was something that he tried to reduce in the law.
00:28:53.940 But yeah, marrying your older women, you're like, oh, you're going to get the young wife. 0.94
00:28:57.220 No, the young women need to go to the young men. 1.00
00:28:59.180 They're the fertile ones. 1.00
00:29:00.080 You are actively being, like, a problem for society if you're an old man marrying younger women. 1.00
00:29:04.620 Yeah, and that was another really common problem now that I think the historic marriages, it was just all these young women being married often really old men.
00:29:11.420 Contraception and abortion.
00:29:12.480 Romans likely used herbal contraceptives and abortifacts, though the evidence is sparse, potentially reducing birth rates further.
00:29:18.820 Well, we know they practiced exposure of infants that they didn't want, so, like, clearly this harmed them.
00:29:23.980 You know, an interesting thing about ancient Greece in Rome, I don't know if you've heard, but the heart symbol that we have today that looks, you know, nothing like a heart,
00:29:30.820 came from a plant that was likely used for abortions.
00:29:35.520 Oh my goodness.
00:29:35.900 Or not abortions, but, like, contraception.
00:29:37.540 Some historic texts, I'll just, I just want to note, suggest that some of the abortion techniques utilized by women, 1.00
00:29:44.540 probably depending, like, if it was, like, later in their pregnancy, were risky, such that maybe you would die in your attempt to poison your unborn child.
00:29:54.360 So, for example, that the example of that one, one Spartan king who told the, like, dowager queen who'd been, you know, widowed to, don't, you know, don't, don't hurt yourself trying to abort the child, have the child, and then I'll expose it.
00:30:11.260 So, that implies that some of their methods were dangerous to the mother, too, which would explain higher rates of exposure, so they probably had more effective methods earlier.
00:30:19.160 The interesting thing about this plant that I'm talking about here that had a leaf shaped like a heart is, one, it's funny that they're, like, this is how they viewed love, like, sex without probation.
00:30:27.700 Like, the plan B pill being, like, the theme of Valentine's Day cards.
00:30:32.400 Right.
00:30:32.840 Well, I mean, is it not with, like, the little smarty things?
00:30:34.980 But anyway, this plant was driven to extinction.
00:30:37.680 We don't have it in these regions anymore.
00:30:40.540 That's how much they love their, you know.
00:30:42.860 Amazing.
00:30:43.760 But I can totally see something used for, like, any time you see it, you're like, oh, I'm going to take some of that.
00:30:48.300 Yeah.
00:30:48.660 Be prepared.
00:30:50.020 Be prepared.
00:30:52.260 Why were birth rates so low?
00:30:55.140 Several socioeconomic lifestyle choices, the elites prioritized political careers, wealth, and status over raising large families.
00:31:00.940 Elite women may have limited pregnancies to preserve their health or social roles. 1.00
00:31:06.700 Economic costs raising children in the upper classes was expensive, requiring education, dowries, and upkeep of social standing, which may have been a classic issue today.
00:31:14.720 Yeah.
00:31:14.960 Exactly what we're dealing with today, which is why I've said you've got to learn to lower the cost, both temporarily and in terms of effort of having kids.
00:31:22.760 But social pressures, the competitive nature of Roman politics, and the instability of the late Roman Republic and early Empire, e.g. civil wars, purges, may have made large families less appealing or practical.
00:31:38.360 So, that's it.
00:31:40.440 That's the whole of what I was able to learn about childless Romans. 1.00
00:31:44.280 Did this change your mind on anything?
00:31:45.760 Well, now I know where, you know, Augustus fell short.
00:31:50.000 I mean, I always felt like something had really gone wrong in general with his succession planning.
00:31:56.680 And I think that now that general sentiment extends to just basically his ability for generational transfer.
00:32:03.160 I don't want to, you know, like he's an amazing dude, amazing achievements.
00:32:06.820 I just, and now I'm like, okay, no one's perfect.
00:32:09.860 No one's perfect.
00:32:12.000 At least you weren't, you know, Nero. 0.84
00:32:14.220 Can't even kill your own mom the first time.
00:32:16.560 She was.
00:32:17.800 Who is to try multiple times?
00:32:19.440 But also, like, the number of insane and dramatic Roman assassinations.
00:32:24.300 It's almost like there was this unspoken rule that you couldn't just kill someone. 0.98
00:32:29.120 You had to kill them dramatically. 1.00
00:32:31.540 You had to do it in an epic fashion. 0.98
00:32:34.780 I think it just kind of signals to me this level of performative drama and psychosis that Roman culture had arrived at. 1.00
00:32:44.020 Where they, like, couldn't do anything in a reasonable and pragmatic manner.
00:32:47.700 They couldn't raise children.
00:32:48.200 It reminds me so much of modern progressive culture.
00:32:50.580 If you go to, like, I think it would be a great representation of Nero's constantly wanting to be around celebrity.
00:32:57.080 And then a celebrity is too popular, so he has him killed because he wants to be the most popular.
00:33:00.800 And it really is, I think, the way people live in this ultra-urban monoculture.
00:33:05.780 Oh, wanting to be accepted by a foreign culture.
00:33:09.220 Yeah.
00:33:09.460 But he doesn't even really understand.
00:33:10.260 Yeah, yeah.
00:33:10.580 He wanted the Greeks to like him, right?
00:33:12.040 Yeah.
00:33:12.320 No, he was like, I can master this amazing culture.
00:33:15.420 Can't they just like me?
00:33:16.420 Can't they just give me words?
00:33:17.720 Yeah.
00:33:18.020 I don't know.
00:33:18.520 Just there's a lot of...
00:33:19.260 But anyway, so I...
00:33:20.380 We might be thinking there of somebody else.
00:33:22.980 We might be...
00:33:23.500 No, it was Nero.
00:33:24.220 No, no, no, no.
00:33:24.940 Nero was the one who was like, I want to be a Greek master of this.
00:33:28.220 And yeah, no, no.
00:33:28.760 That was him.
00:33:29.120 No, but he wasn't the one who was obsessed with becoming a gladiator.
00:33:32.040 No.
00:33:32.700 No.
00:33:32.840 That was...
00:33:33.240 What's his face?
00:33:33.860 Okay, starting with a C. 0.82
00:33:34.880 But anyway.
00:33:35.520 But I will note, when I'm looking at this and I'm like, oh, it's sort of sad.
00:33:38.240 Like, this means I'm almost certainly not related to or descendant of any of the famous Romans.
00:33:41.940 And then I was like, it's funny, the royalty that I do have direct succession of, one of them at least,
00:33:48.100 I always think it's funny because I...
00:33:50.960 Every, like, almost every single backwoods Scottish-American I have met... 1.00
00:33:55.820 Is related to him.
00:33:57.540 Is related to this guy.
00:33:59.180 It's Robert McBruce, by the way.
00:34:00.700 The guy from the Braveheart movie.
00:34:02.680 I am also a direct descendant of his.
00:34:05.200 He killed?
00:34:05.720 I thought he didn't have any kids.
00:34:07.460 Did he have kids?
00:34:07.620 No, Robert McBruce.
00:34:08.740 I decided to Google how many kids he had because I was like, how could it be that so many people are direct descendants of him?
00:34:13.480 Yeah.
00:34:13.980 He had 12 kids.
00:34:15.580 Oh, okay.
00:34:16.720 Well...
00:34:17.240 12 surviving kids.
00:34:18.760 So, yeah, that explains why so many people...
00:34:20.740 By the way, the other...
00:34:21.080 With one woman? 0.97
00:34:22.680 I think so.
00:34:23.840 I think so.
00:34:24.700 Good for her.
00:34:25.780 The other monarchs I have direct descent from are Charlemagne and Old King Cole.
00:34:31.340 I'm related to, like, way more religious figures.
00:34:33.700 Like, another direct descent is John Knox.
00:34:36.080 Well, and what about Oliver Cromwell?
00:34:37.740 Yeah, potentially Oliver Cromwell, but that's not confirmed.
00:34:40.220 I am descended from a Oliver Cromwell that lived around that time period from our family records, but I can't confirm it is the Oliver Cromwell.
00:34:47.420 And all I get is George Washington as an uncle.
00:34:49.680 That's embarrassing.
00:34:50.800 Yeah, you get the George Washington siblings.
00:34:53.040 He didn't have any kids himself, but she's a direct descendant of siblings.
00:34:55.520 People are like, why do you know all this stuff?
00:34:56.840 It's because my family is obsessed with genealogy.
00:34:59.060 Yeah.
00:34:59.280 And when you start going that far back, you're basically related to everyone.
00:35:04.780 The world was not very big.
00:35:07.440 Well, no, especially the famous people.
00:35:09.400 You've got to keep in mind, because you're multiplying every time you go back, like, by two people.
00:35:12.880 And the famous people, all you need to do is connect yourself to somebody who can prove they were descended from one of the famous people.
00:35:18.100 And then you can go back, like, 15 generations.
00:35:20.040 And you know they won't shut up about that.
00:35:21.800 I mean, I'm sure, like, back in the day, it's like, oh, you know, you're descended from Robert.
00:35:25.660 Like, they made the same jokes that they make today about marathon runners.
00:35:29.180 Well, you don't need everyone to do it.
00:35:30.520 You just need one crazy person who is obsessed with this that you can prove you're connected to.
00:35:34.580 Yeah, except there, you know, a lot of the Braveheart myths, weren't they kind of written by a Scottish family that never knew him and lived after he died and was like, we're going to write a bunch of stories so that people think we're cool.
00:35:46.040 Whatever.
00:35:46.640 They made a good movie. 1.00
00:35:47.800 Braveheart's a fucking amazing movie. 1.00
00:35:49.920 Freedom! 0.99
00:35:51.120 If you're watching this and you haven't seen Braveheart, sorry, even more than Rome.
00:35:54.220 If you're watching this and you haven't seen Braveheart, what is wrong with you?
00:35:57.140 Good soundtrack.
00:35:58.960 Yeah, great soundtrack.
00:36:00.140 Very moving movie.
00:36:01.300 Very baser.
00:36:02.320 Well, most based movie.
00:36:04.220 I'm not Braveheart hair.
00:36:06.180 They got in so much trouble for the scene where the, in, like, modern times, where the prince has a gay lover and the king is like, oh, you're so good at strategy. 0.76
00:36:16.260 Here, why don't you tell me strategy and walk into a window and throws him out?
00:36:20.180 And the son's like, like, mortified.
00:36:24.060 And a lot of people have been like, that's horrible.
00:36:26.460 But that's the way kings would have treated something like that, historically.
00:36:29.720 Like, what are we supposed to do?
00:36:31.380 Pretend, like, the king of England and the Middle Ages was accepting of gay people? 1.00
00:36:35.020 Like, no, he wanted heirs and he was obsessed with this.
00:36:39.760 Yeah.
00:36:40.280 Anyway.
00:36:41.360 Anyway.
00:36:42.680 Anyway.
00:36:43.840 Am I making you potstickers tonight?
00:36:46.380 No, you have to make me my curry tonight.
00:36:48.120 Oh, crumbs.
00:36:49.020 Yes.
00:36:49.340 Well, would you like some supplemental potstickers?
00:36:51.420 Because it's not a whole lot of food.
00:36:53.340 I mean, I think it is actually a pretty big amount that needs to be reheated.
00:36:55.820 Okay.
00:36:56.000 I do think you're a decent serving.
00:36:57.460 Yeah.
00:36:57.800 Okay.
00:36:58.100 I'm okay with that.
00:36:59.360 And.
00:36:59.600 Oh, yeah.
00:36:59.800 Because I added a bunch of ground, seasoned ground beef to it.
00:37:04.060 Oh, so, yeah.
00:37:04.960 Give me that and some potstickers and I'll be fine.
00:37:07.200 Because you do want potstickers.
00:37:08.600 Yes.
00:37:09.000 I do want potstickers.
00:37:09.920 Okay.
00:37:10.260 He changed his mind, his tummy growl a little bit.
00:37:13.380 Well, you know what?
00:37:14.380 You're cute.
00:37:15.000 And that's your problem.
00:37:16.240 And I don't know why I'm still married to you.
00:37:18.620 Happy birthday to you.
00:37:22.160 Now make your wish.
00:37:22.900 I love you.
00:37:26.900 I love you.
00:37:29.600 I love you.
00:37:30.840 And I love you.
00:37:33.620 And I love you.
00:37:36.560 And I love you.
00:37:38.060 And I love my food.
00:37:39.740 Oh, good job, friend.
00:37:42.160 You just talked about everything you love.
00:37:43.880 Hey.
00:37:44.540 That is wonderful.
00:37:45.440 Hey, Eddie, hey.
00:37:46.280 Did I love Octavia?
00:37:47.240 Can you see the video?
00:37:48.280 I love my food.
00:37:49.020 I love my family.
00:37:49.860 Can I see the video, mom?
00:37:51.200 Can I see the video?
00:37:52.980 It's really sweet.
00:37:53.900 Thank you.