Julius Caesar was a Roman emperor who died in the first century CE. He was known for his desire for Roman citizens to marry and have children. But did he really have a problem with women not having children? And did he have a solution to the problem? To find out, Simone and I talk to historian Dio Cassius.
00:00:08.820Right? Many people have heard of Rome as, and they've heard of like Augustus being concerned about falling fertility rates among Roman elites.
00:00:17.760We've heard that he put in laws to try to prevent this. We've heard, oh, this is mirrored with our current societal collapse.
00:00:23.700And this is a pretense of the destruction of a global empire in the same way people saw it as a pretense of the destruction of the Roman empire.
00:00:30.300Even though it wasn't. That happened a long time after this particular concern.
00:00:33.220But, I mean, it kind of was, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We'll see.
00:00:36.760But I was like, wait, what were those laws? What actually happened in Rome during this period?
00:00:41.100What did people of the period have to say about this? How low did the fertility rate of the Roman elite actually get?
00:00:46.060And I'll also start by saying Rome's going through this again.
00:00:48.860Italy right now has a fertility rate of only 1.18. That means every 100 Italians, there's only going to be 20 great-grandchildren.
00:00:54.200We are looking at a complete collapse of Italian civilization likely within our lifetimes, which is going to be really good.
00:01:00.840Good point. Yeah, we're back to square one.
00:01:04.600And this also causes a lot of problems, like for Catholicism, because if Italy is no longer Italian or Catholic anymore, you know, what happens to the Vatican?
00:01:13.500Tough, tough world we might be entering.
00:01:16.360But I think they're going to get it together. I think they're going to get it together.
00:02:39.720You don't say for the queen, you know.
00:02:41.880Yeah, yeah. Lie back and think of England, or Rome, in this case.
00:02:46.440So this quote reflects his view that marriage, though challenging, was essential for Rome's survival.
00:02:51.000He also praised fathers of large families and criticized the childless, emphasizing the importance of producing heirs to maintain Rome's strengths on the duty of procreation.
00:03:09.740Spoken to married men with children, this quote praises them for fulfilling their civic duty, while implicitly criticizing unmarried and childless for neglecting it.
00:03:18.280This is so much worse than J.D. Vance.
00:03:20.040You have shown yourself to be mindful to the continued existence of our race, while the others have not.
00:07:34.380And I think it actually will become normalized around the world by the time we die.
00:07:38.920It's assuming we live for another 40, 50 years.
00:07:40.900I don't think so, because you can only do that when you know that that person's, like, it's unfair if a person produces children who then are net welfare drains.
00:07:53.060So I feel like the Robin Hanson tax bond thing would have to be in there a little bit more.
00:07:58.400Well, yeah, what you might do is they have to produce children that are – no, I don't think so.
00:08:03.140I think even just, like, the harsh tax for not being married is good, because we know that a lot of the childless thing is just people aren't getting married fast enough or enough.
00:08:12.280Yeah, and when you're not married, you know, your kid is at a disadvantage too.
00:08:15.880I mean, I imagine that there is a correlation between –
00:08:17.380No, no, no, but the point here being is even within his new laws, unmarried people paid a very big fine, married people without kids paid a smaller fine, and then people with kids didn't pay a fine at all.
00:08:29.120And so it's creating an – it's like a graded incentive with the first part of the grade being getting married.
00:08:37.540And I think that if you implemented a pernatalist policy, that should be the first part of the grading system, not the first kid you have.
00:09:59.040Okay, because I know one of the things discussed in the spread of Christianity was that – I mean, Christianity spread a lot because women finally were treated with some respect.
00:10:08.120Their children weren't killed when they weren't desired or seen as fit enough.
00:10:25.160He said, when he was describing all the horrifying things that Jews do alongside, you know, circumcisions and their demonic practices, he's like, they even prevent the exposure of children.
00:17:32.820Because when you contrast these Roman birth rates with early Christian birth rates, like,
00:17:36.480it just, it's super clear in this historical case, at least, that we've pointed out plenty of other contemporary examples of this, that trying to manipulate people using money or other carrots and sticks just isn't.
00:17:55.220So, yeah, for more on this, by the way, you can see our video, Was Early Christianity Really More Moral?
00:18:00.980It goes over why early Christian birth rates were so much higher and presents an argument that Christianity became the dominant religion, not through conversions primarily, but just through having a higher survival and birth rate.
00:18:13.800If a tester left property to an unmarried person, that bequest became catacomb, forfeit to the state or to relatives with children.
00:18:22.720So, even if you wanted to give your property to someone, it would automatically then go to the state or to other relatives who had children who placed claim on it.
00:18:29.240Example, if a well bequeathed 100,000 sestases to an unmarried friend, the friend could not inherit.
00:18:36.000The sum would instead go to the tester's relatives with children, or if none existed, the state.
00:19:00.580For parents, those with children faced no such restrictions and enjoyed full inheritance rights, plus additional social and legal benefits, if they had three or more children.
00:19:09.780I actually like the idea of re-bringing this in.
00:19:33.680The reason why inheritance is so powerful is because it conceptualizes the purpose of kids of paying to the future the debt that you owe the past.
00:19:41.340If you're not paying to the future, then you do not deserve any of the accumulated wealth of the past who did make this sacrifice.
00:19:49.940You are cashing in on society, basically.
00:19:57.680The poeticness of people contextualize.
00:20:00.300And keep in mind, it overly motivates people with betters to have more kids because they are going to be the people set to inherit the most money.
00:20:09.100So, sorry, not that human gene pools are different.
00:20:14.960I'm just saying that if you're viewing pernatalism from the perspective of likelihood to pay into the tax system and you use that as better, these people are more likely to pay into the tax system more money if they have more money, you know, sort of riding on that.
00:20:29.940If you're not at replacement rate, you can only inherit half of the estate and the other half goes to the state or relatives who have above replacement kids.
00:20:36.940But if you are above replacement rate, then you can't inherit the full amount.
00:20:39.220I'd note that the other reason why the inheritance law is so much better than just the progressive tax break is it puts a strong motivation to get married and have kids earlier because there's this risk that, oh, well, I was planning to have kids, but my parents died before then.
00:21:06.060And what it might do, the way I would likely structure it, is the money goes into an escrow for like five years after the person dies to give you time to get married.
00:21:15.360Or if you die before the age of, let's say, 23, it goes into escrow until five years after 23 to give you time to find someone to marry.
00:21:24.600Or if you die when your children are in the age of minority, you should wait until they're at least 25 before the money gets forfeit.
00:22:26.500Effective financial penalty for the unmarried, the complete inability to inherit under most wills, could represent a massive loss, depending on the size of the estate.
00:22:36.560For example, losing 100,000 sesquic bequest was the equivalent to a fine amount.
00:22:44.600Unmarried men were also barred from certain public events and offices, indirectly affecting their wealth and status.
00:22:49.600And keep in mind, for Rome, this would have caused the most noble families to have an additional incentive to get married and have kids early.
00:23:11.340For example, Tacticus, a historian in writing in the 2nd century AD, noted the, quote-unquote, childless sterilists of the upper classes and linked it to a decline in noble families.
00:23:20.220Now, I note here, when you say it didn't work, I mean, I think we can see why it didn't work.
00:23:23.900It's because you have this strong counterpressure of women are the worst, misogyny we've seen.
00:23:27.860Misogynistic societies generally really struggle to breed it above repopulation rate when they're in periods of wealth.
00:23:34.500Misogyny only really works when you're in periods of, you know, economic disadvantage and unadvanced economic systems.
00:24:46.400No, but I mean, like, that your succession...
00:24:50.360As you're, like, sort of starting out this hereditary line, is your stepson, who also just didn't turn out to be that great of an emperor, even though his name is so good.
00:25:13.960The Jens Claudia, a powerful aristocratic clan, also faced challenges.
00:25:17.140Emperor Claudius, 41 to 45 AD, had four children across his marriages, but two died young, and his heirs were often adopted or from other lines, showing the difficulty of maintaining direct descent.
00:26:05.240Because I think it would be absolutely hilarious, one of these shows about, like, just horrible people.
00:26:10.660Everyone around him was the worst conceivable human you could imagine.
00:26:14.820My favorite example of this is he set his mom's boat out, and he broke it in a way before it went out so it would crack when she got out into deeper waters.
00:27:24.000Because, likely, what happened is, similar to today, memetic viruses had arose within these communities that benefited from turning children against their parents.
00:27:33.340And many of these viruses used hedonism to pull them out.
00:27:36.040And so the question is, is how do you motivate, you know, something that can, you know, withstand this?
00:28:02.820These cases illustrate how even the most prominent Romans struggled to reproduce and sustain large families, often relying on adoption or facing lineage extinction.
00:28:11.240So I asked it to estimate the TFR within the Roman elite.
00:28:15.140Scholarly studies suggest TFR among the Roman elite may have been 1.5 to 2 children per woman, which is below the replacement rate of approximately 2.1 needed to maintain a population without external growth.
00:28:25.940In contrast, pre-industrial societies typically had TFRs at 4 to 6 children per woman, making the elite's rate strikingly low, influencing factors.
00:28:33.640High child mortality, up to 50% of children in ancient Rome may have died before adulthood, meaning even families with high births might have seen few survivals.
00:28:41.400Late marriages, elite men, often married in their 30s, and women, though married younger, might have had fewer fertile years with older husbands.
00:28:51.840And this was something that he tried to reduce in the law.
00:28:53.940But yeah, marrying your older women, you're like, oh, you're going to get the young wife.
00:28:57.220No, the young women need to go to the young men.
00:29:00.080You are actively being, like, a problem for society if you're an old man marrying younger women.
00:29:04.620Yeah, and that was another really common problem now that I think the historic marriages, it was just all these young women being married often really old men.
00:29:12.480Romans likely used herbal contraceptives and abortifacts, though the evidence is sparse, potentially reducing birth rates further.
00:29:18.820Well, we know they practiced exposure of infants that they didn't want, so, like, clearly this harmed them.
00:29:23.980You know, an interesting thing about ancient Greece in Rome, I don't know if you've heard, but the heart symbol that we have today that looks, you know, nothing like a heart,
00:29:30.820came from a plant that was likely used for abortions.
00:29:35.900Or not abortions, but, like, contraception.
00:29:37.540Some historic texts, I'll just, I just want to note, suggest that some of the abortion techniques utilized by women,
00:29:44.540probably depending, like, if it was, like, later in their pregnancy, were risky, such that maybe you would die in your attempt to poison your unborn child.
00:29:54.360So, for example, that the example of that one, one Spartan king who told the, like, dowager queen who'd been, you know, widowed to, don't, you know, don't, don't hurt yourself trying to abort the child, have the child, and then I'll expose it.
00:30:11.260So, that implies that some of their methods were dangerous to the mother, too, which would explain higher rates of exposure, so they probably had more effective methods earlier.
00:30:19.160The interesting thing about this plant that I'm talking about here that had a leaf shaped like a heart is, one, it's funny that they're, like, this is how they viewed love, like, sex without probation.
00:30:27.700Like, the plan B pill being, like, the theme of Valentine's Day cards.
00:30:55.140Several socioeconomic lifestyle choices, the elites prioritized political careers, wealth, and status over raising large families.
00:31:00.940Elite women may have limited pregnancies to preserve their health or social roles.
00:31:06.700Economic costs raising children in the upper classes was expensive, requiring education, dowries, and upkeep of social standing, which may have been a classic issue today.
00:31:14.960Exactly what we're dealing with today, which is why I've said you've got to learn to lower the cost, both temporarily and in terms of effort of having kids.
00:31:22.760But social pressures, the competitive nature of Roman politics, and the instability of the late Roman Republic and early Empire, e.g. civil wars, purges, may have made large families less appealing or practical.
00:34:37.740Yeah, potentially Oliver Cromwell, but that's not confirmed.
00:34:40.220I am descended from a Oliver Cromwell that lived around that time period from our family records, but I can't confirm it is the Oliver Cromwell.
00:34:47.420And all I get is George Washington as an uncle.
00:35:07.440Well, no, especially the famous people.
00:35:09.400You've got to keep in mind, because you're multiplying every time you go back, like, by two people.
00:35:12.880And the famous people, all you need to do is connect yourself to somebody who can prove they were descended from one of the famous people.
00:35:18.100And then you can go back, like, 15 generations.
00:35:20.040And you know they won't shut up about that.
00:35:21.800I mean, I'm sure, like, back in the day, it's like, oh, you know, you're descended from Robert.
00:35:25.660Like, they made the same jokes that they make today about marathon runners.
00:35:29.180Well, you don't need everyone to do it.
00:35:30.520You just need one crazy person who is obsessed with this that you can prove you're connected to.
00:35:34.580Yeah, except there, you know, a lot of the Braveheart myths, weren't they kind of written by a Scottish family that never knew him and lived after he died and was like, we're going to write a bunch of stories so that people think we're cool.
00:36:06.180They got in so much trouble for the scene where the, in, like, modern times, where the prince has a gay lover and the king is like, oh, you're so good at strategy.
00:36:16.260Here, why don't you tell me strategy and walk into a window and throws him out?