Are the Gender Wars Really About Class？
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Summary
In this episode, we talk about the class differences between upper middle-class women and lower middle class men, and the theory that class differences are the root cause of most intergroup conflicts, and that all conflicts are class conflicts.
Transcript
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Hello, Malcolm. I'm so excited to be with you here today because we're going to talk
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about the gender wars, which we don't talk about nearly enough. We never talk about gender on this
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channel. No, never men or women, but you heard a crazy theory that really clicked for me in a lot
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of ways. Yeah. Yeah. I came across this argument that gender wars are not really about gender,
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but rather about class differences and specifically between upper middle-class women
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and lower middle-class men. And this came from Cartoons Hate Her on Substack who made this
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argument. And she largely implies that basically gender wars participants aren't aware of this,
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but I'm going to argue that they are. And then I'm also going to argue that it could very well be that
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all conflicts are class conflicts. And there are some really telling examples. But I think
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ultimately if we acknowledge this class resource distribution issue is the underlying cause of
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most, if not possibly all, intergroup conflicts, maybe we can navigate them more smartly, but
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like, let's get into it. You ready? I'm going to push back on one area here. I'm going to argue
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something else, which is that what creates this class divide is that male communities will be drawn
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due to their sort of tribal centralized nature to the class norms that are normative to the community
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broadly. Whereas female communities are drawn to a class identity, to the class identity that is
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shared by the most elites within the community. And so even- Oh, come on. I mean, like the male
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influencers who set tones are more elite. Male influencers who set tones intentionally code
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themselves as lower middle-class. Oh God, you're right though. No, it's true. Even like the really
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wealthy ones come across as so trashy. It's so bad. Whereas the female elites code themselves as
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middle-upper-class Manhattanites. Yeah. It's like old money versus new money. Gender edition.
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Like Tim Pool or something. And like the way he dresses on his show or like- Oh, or like Andrew Tate
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or like the guy who wakes up at 4am and shoves his face in ice buckets of water. They all give off a
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very new money aesthetic. Whereas literally like women are constantly like right now,
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a sort of trending thing on Instagram and TikTok is sort of this old money summer aesthetic that like
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people like Haley Bieber are, are like not pioneering, but popularizing. So it is, it is actually,
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that's really interesting that also when, when each class is trying to show off wealth, there is
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men go to new money and women go to old money right now.
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Not what I said at all. Well, okay. Well, consider who is actually rising was in the male spaces
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or who wouldn't, when they were. So when Andrew Tate was rising in fame, he didn't go to new money
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coding. What he went to was traditional masculine things like boxing, kick fighting, stuff like that.
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If you look at the male influencers who have risen within conservative spaces recently,
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you have individuals like Asmogold who intentionally codes as lower middle class,
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even though he could very easily got a lot more money if he wanted to.
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Where it's, or are considered bronze age pervert, very intentionally codes as lower middle class,
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Almost, almost a stoic aesthetic. They're like taking the Socrates approach.
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Bronze age, a royal nationalist does this with a lot of his stuff. He doesn't, you,
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you wouldn't have known. Yeah. Yeah. No, his stuff's not about money at all. It's about like,
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if anything, a lot of these people choose alternate personas to hide that they are not
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in real life, lower middle class individuals. Oh, that's true. Oh, that, oh, but also, yeah,
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there seems to be a correlation between like the actually upper class men are pretending to be
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lower class than they are. But then like the men who actually come from more middling backgrounds
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pretend will act like new money. And think about the way that the men who are trying to gain social
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status today, who even have like all the wealth you could want are doing it. So consider somebody
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like Elon, right? Like what does Elon do to try to raise his own social status when he has all the
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money you could ever have? He doesn't like dress in fancy clothes or anything like that. What he does
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is he posts controversial memes and he, he creates a fake account to try to make it look like he's
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playing a lot, a lot higher level in video games. The scandals of our time. Hold on. That's a lower,
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he's making the wealthiest man on earth a huge amount of effort and ended up with a huge amount of
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social egg on his face to make it look like he was good at a lower middle-class hobby.
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That's a, that's a really, that's a really interesting point. I wonder if they're just
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evolutionarily divergent, but equally valid approaches to a kind of realization on behalf
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of the collective online male id that they are in general lower middle-class. And so either you can,
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as in a male influencer, be like money, money, money, money, money signaling. Like I have tons
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of money, look at all my money or be like, I said, I don't need money. I'm above money. I'm better than
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money. I'm going to argue that what we're actually seeing here is a few things. Okay. It is the way
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that men build camaraderie and culture is part of the reason why they have normalized to the lower
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middle-class aesthetic. But the other reason is the influence of the MAGA movement and the MAGA
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movement, as I've noted in a number of my earlier episodes, a huge amount of cultural influence
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that comes downstream from the gender-backward cultural group, which is known as like the
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redneck or hillbilly group in like popular parlance, which specifically has always really shunned
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the trappings of the upper classes and intentionally would really work with all of the other forces
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that are driving this lower middle-class coding, which is the area where you and I get called nerds
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the most because we are some of the only conservative influencers who do not code strongly as lower
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middle-class. And if you look at a lot of the attacks on us, I actually think that they are
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specifically due to the classes that we code as rather than like when somebody says that I'm a simp,
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I think a lot of that is actually just, you do not code as lower middle-class.
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Because you wear educated liberal elite glasses frames from Cutler & Gross, purchased in Soho.
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Yeah. Okay. Okay. Then let's, let's get into it though. I'll, I'll start by presenting the argument
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that inspired all this. Cause I, you know, this, this, this episode is dedicated to Diana Fleischman,
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who gifted me a month of a free subscription to, to the cartoons, hate her sub stack, because this
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was a paid post and it's titled the gender wars are class wars. Subtitle. Of course, we'll never
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agree. We're living in different realities. Also though, just, just so you like have a little
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respect for her. She's not like a liberal or conservative. She's, she's more just having fun.
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She refers to herself as a terminally online normie mom and a former Reddit troll who earned a total IP
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ban. And I feel like if you're a troll who earned a total IP ban, like you deserve at least a little
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bit of attention and respect, but so that the TLDR for argument is that the main issue is not gender
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instead it's class differences. And specifically this is upper middle-class women and lower middle-class
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men. She argues these groups can't agree on the basic realities of social life. So each finds each
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other's anecdotes about dating and marriage and status completely implausible or fabricated,
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which is one of the reasons why I think they're like, Oh, you're making this up or this is all
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cope. And then she, she points to some viral examples. Like there was one about like hot nannies
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or grad school and marriage prospects is another example. I'm going to send you on WhatsApp
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just so you can see the thread. The, so specifically the hot nanny debate was, was I think sparked by
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a Tik TOK post that a Columbia nanny posted that caused a lot of the male members of the gender
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wars to be like, well, Oh, of course the husband in this relationship is sleeping with a nanny. And
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they kind of like sort of dehumanized the unseen mother in the picture here of like, well, why bother,
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you know, having kids, if you're not even going to be around to raise them. And there's just sort of
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this, what she highlights is a deep disconnect between like actually having experience with
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nannies. Like most of the men who, who jump into the thread and comment on au pairs and nannies
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have never actually had them for themselves. Don't really understand the dynamics. Don't really
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understand like how gross it would feel if you slept with a nanny. Yeah, it'd be really gross to
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Wednesday, bad news. Uncle Fester is getting married.
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The nanny. Get out of the cabin. I mean, I'd kill myself. The help? I think that's disgusting.
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Like I, I like the idea that somebody is like, and I even think about like my friends who have
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nannies and stuff like that. And we go play with them. It would be quite the, the like, okay.
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Cheating on your wife within like tech elite social circles, as long as you guys first, if you say
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like you're polyamorous, which a lot of them do, like it doesn't matter at all.
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Yeah. I feel like it's almost impossible to cheat in these elite circles.
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And you sleep with the nanny and she wasn't brought in knowing that this was the role she
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was going to play. That'd be seen as like really gross. Like this would also, it's like a lawsuit
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It's stupid. Like it's not that it never happens ever, ever, ever, but it's not a bigger threat than
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having your wife go to an office that you don't also work at, which by the way, is the number
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one place that women cheat. It's people they meet at the office. I think it's 80% of infidelity.
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It's also how most people find relationships. Oh yeah. With the, the, the prominent Coldplay
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example that surely you've heard of at this point.
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Yeah. Well, yeah. The, the, the just went live that Coldplay, the guy who's caught cheating
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with his HR that, and she had a husband. It was my understanding.
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And he had a wife and kids is that is, is actually like where within, like if you are a middle upper
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class couple or something like that, where the husband or wife is likely to cheat is the nanny
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who is like around the kids and stuff. And often comes from one, like a totally different background.
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It's usually, you know, you, you know, you're not, you're not going to like, keep in mind a lot
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of these nannies are, I'd say like conservative Catholic types. Like they're, they're, they're
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usually from like middle, lower class, like conservative, Catholic, religious backgrounds.
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They're, they're not the type who's looking to sleep around with their employer.
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Yeah. And I, I won't say that like nannies or au pairs who come to the United States from
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abroad and are young and hot aren't sometimes looking for romance, but they're looking for
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romance their own age. And while there's a bunch of people who jump in, in the thread and
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are like, Oh yeah. Like she's definitely sweet sleeping with the husband. Nannies always
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do this. Like one guy who jumps in the thread, Nick Walker. He's like funny how Twitter's
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automatically assuming she'd go for her client's husband when there's a 90% chance her fiance
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is better looking. And literally we have a colleague who was formerly a nanny in the U S
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and now lives here and is married because while she was a nanny, she met a guy her age who
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Like I think that people aren't really thinking through this. Okay. So you can look at the
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woman in, in this, you know, I'll try to post a picture of it. You can see she's a very attractive
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woman and that's, what's causing people to think this. Right. But what they're not considering
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is the world from this woman's perspective. So I am this woman, I am young, very attractive.
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I'm likely from a developing country, but right now I'm staying with a wealthy family in a place
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like Manhattan or San Francisco. I want to play my cards. Well, I'm a, even a hypergamous woman.
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What am I trying to do? I am trying to lock it down a wealthy tech bro to marry me, not sleep with
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Well, and also just considering like, even looking at the bigger meta of it, this is a Brazilian,
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I'm sorry, a Colombian nanny who has posted this video on TikTok. I'm sorry, TikTok on TikTok. She's
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literally advertising how hot she is, but also what a great mother she would be. Because this
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video shows her doing all these sweet things with the kid. The kid obviously loves her. And a lot of
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people also chime in in the thread to say like, wow, I wish like, you know, she's, she's great.
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She's fishing with the video. The thing is she's using her, her opportunity to advertise what a good
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wife she will be. She's not trying to be the other woman, clearly.
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No, but what's funny is, is guys are watching a video and I, and you are here noticing like a
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class difference between groups where you're seeing this flare up of a person who is literally and
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flagrantly, if, if, if I was her like employer or something, or you, you'd be like, Hey, that's
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pretty unprofessional to be looking for a husband on TikTok using your nannying job. You're, you're,
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you're watching her do something that is actually a violation, is actively unprofessional, is
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actively out there in a way looking for a real long-term partner. Yeah. And you think that she's
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trying to sleep with the husband? Some old guy. You think she's putting her job at risk? Because I'm
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sure if the parents saw this, it'd be kind of pissed because she's not hiding a kid's face or
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anything. And a lot of parents are really sensitive about that. Not us. It's not that I've never had
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nannies hit on me, but it's like, you wouldn't consider it right. Like you'd be like, Oh, that's
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a giant lawsuit waiting to happen. Yeah. Like let's definitely not do that. Yeah. And I mean,
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I think there's this, this big, because of a few very high profile examples of, of people sleeping
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with nannies there, there's this, this perception that it's just pervasive. And even your mom was like,
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don't, don't ever get a hot nanny. Then I see these archival videos of your childhood. And I'm
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like, who's the hot woman in the bikini playing with you guys. It's not your mom. You know, who's,
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who's this hot woman in Italy, like sitting in your bedroom. And it's like, you had hot young
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au pairs all the time. So, and there were no problems. And yeah, they, I mean, you had a mixture.
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There's just not a huge benefit from the perspective of the au pair to sleep with the old,
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ugly, rich guy, or even, even, you know, medium age, because he's already married. He has kids
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and they're the likelihood that they are going to break up the marriage or get him to pay her
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like some side amount is so much less of a good time investment than just using the fact that she's
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from a developing country. And now in Manhattan to try to lock down a husband. And that's the thing
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is being in these families exposes you to so many marriage prospects. And I think they're also just not
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realizing that like, they're not even modeling a lower middle income woman in, in what her
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strategy is familiar with is tropes of the trope of the nanny that seduces the dad. Yeah. Yeah.
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And I know we'll have in our comments, somebody being like, Oh, I'm aware of it happening here.
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And I'm aware, I'm not saying it never happens, but I'm saying it's, it's not something that I
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would actively be worried about, or you would actively be worried about. Yeah. She also, and this
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is something we talked about in our AI episode, how like social class can mean different things.
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Like you can be wealthy, but still be considered low class by many people. And you can be impoverished,
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but still be mixing in the most elite circles. And she points out that status is interpreted
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different differently by each side. So like motor lower middle-class men emphasize status is key
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to male attractiveness. While upper middle-class women often don't even recognize their own status
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advantages as such. So there's just this, they are, as she's saying, living in different realities.
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And then she highlighted by what you just said, huh? You, you just said lower class men see
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status as lower class men see status as, as key to their attractiveness is like the thing
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that they need. And once they get, and women are, sorry, what are you asking? You're, you're not,
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you say lower class men see this as key to there, but you're not defining who there is in the sentence.
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Is it the lower class? Key as key to male attractiveness. Okay. And women see it as
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key or not key to their attractiveness? Women don't, they often don't even recognize
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their own status advantages as status advantages. Like they're not aware of the fact that their
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income or education grants them advantages. They're like blind to it. Whereas men are like
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highly attuned to it. Well, because it doesn't affect the women's advantage on dating markets as
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much as it affects the men's advantage on dating markets. That's why they don't notice it.
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No, of course not. I mean, the dynamics make perfect sense. She also highlights that people
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tend to date and marry just within their own class and within their own educational background
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without realizing it. And I think that especially on, well, no, maybe on both sides, there's this
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expect, like women often talk about like, or well, certainly fantasize about marrying men who are
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wealthier or higher status than they are. But in the end, they marry people who are pretty well-matched
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and, and men, men, I think fantasize about. We're talking about statistically here.
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If you're talking about who people marry versus who people sleep with, yes, there's a huge problem
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for when people are sleeping around where women will all match to the same few, like, you know,
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whatever guys that are top, you know, 0.5% and that they, you know, overly sleep with them.
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And that there really is a drought for the other men and that women can by dressing up and looking
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slutty, you know, land some rich guy. If you're talking about who people actually end up marrying,
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it's the Daisy Buchanan's. You can be the, what was the other woman's name in that? The one who
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gets killed and is sleeping with him. Can't remember the fate of the character, right? You
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can't remember her, but the Daisy Buchanan's. I thought there was only one woman. It was just
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Daisy. It was always just Daisy. No, there was the, there was the Birchroot or something. There was
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the lower classroom sleeping whiz who ends up trying to like run out. Oh, sorry. Yeah. The,
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the wife of the car mechanic. Yeah. The, the, these women are always only like side pieces or
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something like that. Like the idea of, as a woman marrying to improve your class, it can happen,
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but I've seen the, the, the families that it happens in most. And it's usually the creepiest
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and grossest of men. Yeah. It doesn't really have like, like the men where I would say you could not
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pay me any amount of money to, to, to live that life. Well, and you want to know what's interesting
00:18:45.380
though, Malcolm is also more and more people are marrying within their social class. In other
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words, the likelihood of dating down, it has decreased in recent decades. So in 1958, like
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that birth cohort, 39% married within their class. So there was a lot of people who were marrying
00:19:02.240
outside and presumably this was women marrying up and men marrying down. Then in 1970, that birth
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cohort, 45%. So up from 39 married within their class. And then from 1976 to 1981, 56% married
00:19:19.860
within their class. And presumably it's only gone up since then. Now this, this is from UK data, but
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similar trends are seen in US data. So I think less and less and less people are, are marrying outside
00:19:32.580
their class. And maybe what's going on too, is men are anchoring to a different time. And they're
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assuming that things worked like they used to work where, you know, men would marry some impoverished
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hot woman and women would seek out some Prince Charming who'd be willing to consider her. And that
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just doesn't really happen anymore. People, especially because to your point, people meet at school,
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people meet at work. And those are typically pretty, pretty bound by social class. Right?
00:20:01.500
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, not that, not that you, I mean, keep in mind, like the guy who was caught
00:20:05.800
cheating, he was caught cheating with the head of HR. Yeah. No, no, no. Yeah. They were, yeah. It
00:20:10.560
wasn't a secretary. Come on. Yeah. Actually, that's a really good point. Historically, when men cheated at
00:20:16.720
the office and you had the scandals of it, it was a secretary. Today, most of the scandals I'm aware of,
00:20:22.860
of tech CEOs cheating with an employee. It is somebody holding a C rank position or other senior
00:20:29.080
position in the company. Isn't that funny? In fact, I can't think of a single secretary
00:20:32.780
instance in the past 10 years. I can't either. I'm sure, you know, people will come up with
00:20:38.940
exceptions, but I just think it's far less common. But so here's, I want to actually take this a step
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further because I don't think the way I love the idea presented by cartoons, hate her. I think
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she's wrong that people are just kind of talking past each other and not getting it. I actually
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think that either subconsciously or even explicitly, especially men who are involved in the gender
00:21:00.160
wars know that they're class wars, which is why many of them support taking women down a notch the
00:21:06.220
same way that far left socialists support the elimination of billionaires. Like both have detailed
00:21:11.380
plans for how to level the playing field. Like on one side, you have Zorhan Mamdani saying,
00:21:17.240
I don't think that we should have billionaires. We need to, we need more equality, like literally.
00:21:22.440
And then you have, on the other hand, Arctotherium, whose essays we've highlighted a bunch of times
00:21:27.060
here, arguing that, oh, like in the Aporia article he wrote called The Baby Boom, he argues that we
00:21:32.840
should roll back welfare and pension state income and lower income taxes, because that's mostly men
00:21:38.320
paying for women, that we should roll back the regulatory state, because that gives bureaucratic jobs
00:21:42.380
primarily to women. We should end affirmative action for women, that we should defund education,
00:21:47.120
because women primarily outperform men in the educational sphere, that we should give
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primarily all of the perennialist incentives to men and not to women, and that we should
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roll back the sexual revolution. Like he's, it comes across as the same kind of like, take
00:22:03.420
away the power of the billionaires, tax the rich, except in this case, it's just women. But it's
00:22:08.320
because in this case, he sees women and explicitly in the Baby Boom article on Aporia, he highlights
00:22:14.340
the fact that women have been given sort of a bunch of artificial tailwinds, enabling them
00:22:20.540
to have higher relative class status and wealth to many men, which makes it harder for men to attract
00:22:28.900
them. Well, no, I mean, we point out the core problem within the existing gender wars is women
00:22:33.600
put a bunch of things in place to try to make men and women economically equal, and they've more than
00:22:38.620
achieved that. Now women are doing slightly better than men within our generational cohort.
00:22:42.040
And now they look around and be like, well, I want a man who's still like more successful than I am
00:22:47.520
for a marriage partner. Where are those men? And it's like, well, you got rid of them. You said they
00:22:52.120
were a problem, right? Like, yeah. So I think that a lot of people are very upset about that,
00:22:59.060
especially the men who have been screwed over, because it is much economic, much, much more
00:23:03.820
economically difficult for men than it is for women, especially because as the economy is unraveling,
00:23:09.360
the part of the economy that has received a bit of cushioning is the bureaucratic positions
00:23:13.660
abnormally held by women now. Well, and abnormally protected and kept in place, even when there's
00:23:19.680
no financial justification for it. Now, eventually AI is going to rip those apart more than other
00:23:26.500
sorts of positions. Yeah, it'll happen. You know, don't worry, Arthur Theorem. Like, like I said,
00:23:30.480
in the AI and social class episode, I think women are the ones who are going to be screwed over by it
00:23:34.020
because they are not going to be the risk takers who win. Yeah. So it'll happen. Give it a good
00:23:39.120
time. Well, and they're disproportionately sorting into the types of positions that AI is just going
00:23:43.680
to be safer to have. 100%. Yeah. Because they're middle of the bell curve kind of professionals
00:23:49.140
typically, and men are the outliers, and it's the outlier professionals who are going to make it.
00:23:55.020
Gender reshuffling was in our generation, but it's going to be a fairly ruthless reshuffling to both
00:24:01.920
genders, I think. Oh, no. Well, I mean, well, at every reshuffling, while I think disruption
00:24:07.200
typically yields more opportunities for men, relatively speaking, that's only, like, the side
00:24:13.860
of the bell curve for, like, the sliver of men that, like, succeeds, like, the genius outliers, and
00:24:20.800
not, like, the equally large, if not larger number that just completely get out. Are they all going to
00:24:26.080
have Elon harems? Is that how we're going to fix the birth rate? You know, it's a signal harem.
00:24:29.880
With our, with our, our grok girlfriends, maybe. No, no, no. You know, like, the signal guy and
00:24:35.560
Elon. Oh, so, like, okay. Well, yeah, no, no, no. That's actually, like, I think that many women
00:24:40.280
are going to. Like, 50 wives each. Well, yeah, that and or just in general, women will look more
00:24:46.200
to, like, well, I better attach, like, I better hitch my cart to a profitable man and make money
00:24:51.460
off him by raising his kids, like, or have my life supported by raising his kids. Yeah, I do think
00:24:56.400
that we're going to see a lot more of that, for better or worse. As we pointed out, our general
00:25:00.720
thesis is that society is going to become less equal, economically speaking, over time, because
00:25:06.320
of AI. Yep. But, so, speaking of this, like, I'm just, I was thinking about this and realizing,
00:25:12.340
yeah, like, a lot of this really is about resources and wealth, and it really kind of has nothing
00:25:16.360
to do with gender, even though we're saying it's men versus women, and where it's, like, really.
00:25:22.260
About gender, I think you're wrong there. It is 100% about gender, and it's about the
00:25:27.300
structural and fairness that men deal with. Okay, it's, then it's about structural and
00:25:31.780
fairness. I just, like, let me give you some examples, though, because I really do feel
00:25:34.820
like most of the cultural group conflicts that we have are probably rooted in class
00:25:40.240
differences. And so, let's just go through some examples, like, consider racial and ethnic
00:25:46.100
group tensions. Look at black-white conflict in the U.S., while race is, of course, a centralizing,
00:25:51.140
organizing principle in American society. Research absolutely shows that divisions within racial
00:25:56.540
groups are along class lines, that when wealthier black and Latino Americans have different political
00:26:01.900
priorities and lived experiences compared to poorer members of the same group, poorer individuals may
00:26:07.400
feel less represented and more acutely affected by class barriers than by purely racial ones. And that
00:26:13.280
absolutely shows up. Are immigrant versus native foreign groups? I think you're saying that really,
00:26:16.800
really, really not, not clearly. What she means by this is that if you are an upper-middle-class
00:26:23.700
individual, you are going to look at your black and Latino friends and say, these people are not
00:26:30.080
different from me. Not only are they not different from me, but the person who says being in a black
00:26:34.920
neighborhood is dangerous is a complete psychopath. The person who says Latinos are taking their jobs,
00:26:40.960
like, how could you say that? Now, you go to a lower-middle-class individual and you go into,
00:26:46.160
you know, or a lower-class individual and you go into, you know, black neighborhoods, you're like,
00:26:49.520
hey, this is a dangerous neighborhood. That's like a common thing to say, right? Like,
00:26:53.320
common sense. You say, hey, I lost my job at the auto shop. You know, that's a, everyone would be like,
00:26:59.700
yeah, obviously you lost your job at the auto shop to immigrants. That happened to my-
00:27:03.520
Well, yeah, that's the other thing. Yeah, because it's not just black-white,
00:27:05.980
it's, it's also immigrants, but like the, the immigrant thing isn't so much. I mean, I think
00:27:10.480
when it's harder for people to maybe express the fact that like, you're, you're mad at this group
00:27:15.800
because they're taking your jobs or you feel like they're siphoning away social services that would
00:27:19.940
have otherwise gone to you. And so you're like, oh, like they're eating dogs and cats. I hate them
00:27:24.060
because they smell weird and they look funny and they talk funny or whatever, but like-
00:27:28.020
That, it's, it's that they are culturally different. So again, if I'm an upper-middle-class
00:27:32.960
individual and I have black friends and I have Latino friends, because the upper-middle-class
00:27:38.460
is gated by the urban monoculture, these individuals are culturally going to feel almost
00:27:44.220
identical to myself because they are going to be part of the urban monoculture. If I'm lower class
00:27:49.720
and I am a white guy and I have black or Latino friends, culturally, they're going to be nothing
00:27:55.240
like me. They're going to be a different species for me. You know, I don't mean like ethnically as a
00:28:00.420
different species. What I mean is they're just a different kind of person to me, the way their
00:28:04.380
families are structured, the type of parties they host. Well, and I think the fact that they're
00:28:08.500
different absolutely makes it easy for us to articulate and animate resentment in a very
00:28:15.560
colorful way. But I think that the resentment stems from inequality and fear related to resources.
00:28:22.500
I don't, I don't, that's not even what I'm saying. I'm saying that if you are in these communities,
00:28:26.800
like the, the, the conservative community, which is this lower, lower middle-class community,
00:28:30.980
and I say something like blacks are different from whites and, and, and, and, and whites are
00:28:35.740
different from Latinos or something like that. And, and anyone in the community will be like,
00:28:39.840
oh yeah, I went to a Latino barbecue and it was nothing like, and I went to a black barbecue and
00:28:44.900
you go to a lower class black barbecue and a lower class white barbecue and a lower class Latino
00:28:48.560
barbecue. The experience is going to be like, you're in a different country. Um, now you,
00:28:55.120
you go to an upper middle-class black barbecue or white barbecue or Latino barbecue, you might have
00:29:01.600
like one little activity or, or one little one dish. It's different. But to these people,
00:29:09.360
when they say there are no cultural differences between ethnicities, it is genuinely because many
00:29:15.260
of them really mean it in the depths of their souls. They have never experienced it. And so when they
00:29:22.080
hear somebody else be like, no, these groups are actually quite different from each other,
00:29:26.680
they're like, oh, you could only be saying this because you're a racist, because I know,
00:29:31.740
you know, I just the other week went to my, you know, wealthy black friend's house and it looked
00:29:39.560
exactly like my house. And I met, you know, his wife and their relationship structure was exactly
00:29:45.040
like mine. And I met his kids and they go to the, you know, the same type of doing the same type of
00:29:49.900
thing my kids are doing and have the same type of goals. And, and we're all, you know,
00:29:53.900
the same basic religion. And this echoes the cartoons hater argument in that within each side,
00:29:59.720
they're like, I don't even know what reality you're talking about. Like this, none of this
00:30:03.760
makes sense because they don't have exposure to each other's realities. Yeah. Well, I mean,
00:30:07.720
you could just see this with churches. You go to an upper-class, you know, black church,
00:30:11.160
and it's going to be a lot like a white church. You go to a lower-class black church,
00:30:13.920
and it's going to be very different, right? And, and, and this is because the urban monoculture
00:30:19.420
rots society from the top down. It homogenizes society from the top down. So the closer you are
00:30:26.180
to the top, even just aspirationally speaking, the, the less you are going to see the real differences
00:30:33.740
between people or understand, you know, as I argue today, the modern conservative movement is made up
00:30:39.660
of an alliance of often these different groups. Like one of the reasons why, you know, so many
00:30:43.520
Latinos have come over to the conservative party. They're like, we want to maintain our distinct
00:30:46.560
culture. And they say they want us, they say they like us, but they call us Latinx, which like even
00:30:53.260
ignores the basic way our grammatical structures work. Yeah. If that is the word they use us, and it
00:30:59.620
has so little respect for the way our culture is unique, they do plan to homogenize us.
00:31:04.840
Shut up. Not, not only am I not Latinx and I'm not Latino, I'm not Latina. I am Colombian. I'm
00:31:11.420
from Argentina. Come on. Like what on earth, what are you doing?
00:31:15.060
Yeah. Well, and it's just homogenization, this burning homogenization, this burning away of
00:31:19.300
uniqueness, which has allowed for many, like, and I also think that this is just smart because
00:31:24.960
the feminist movement has sort of converged with the progressive movement, which has converged with the
00:31:29.600
urban monoculture. And the anti-feminist movement has converged with the, you know,
00:31:33.760
cultural sovereignty movement, which is the, you know, MAGA conservative movement. And so to
00:31:39.540
converge culturally within your places of strengths, i.e. if you go to like lower class communities,
00:31:46.400
even though these groups are different and they recognize they're different, many of them will
00:31:49.440
have friends in these other groups. And those friends will value the way that these groups are
00:31:54.340
different and not want those differences further eroded, right? Like, you know, you'll have your
00:31:58.700
black friend if you're a lower class American or your Hispanic friend, you know, from the job site
00:32:06.100
or whatever. And you'll understand that you guys are very culturally distinctive. You have distinctive
00:32:11.660
gender norms. You have distinctive roles around sexual taboos. You have distinctive, and you want
00:32:15.540
to maintain that distinctiveness. And so when you're coming and you're like, okay, let's all get together
00:32:20.520
and work out how we're going to fight against this homogenizing force, it works to come to this
00:32:27.060
lower and lower middle class place. Yeah. And I mean, I, and I hear you and you're saying this is
00:32:32.120
cultural, but I'm also saying that I think that the resources money class element of it is, is
00:32:38.720
underrated. Like I'm okay. Just aside from race, talk about like rural urban divides. A lot of that
00:32:44.840
comes down. It's not just culture. It's also about feeling economically marginalized compared to urban
00:32:51.340
centers. And that, that tension can feel real. Like we we've spoken with people who are like,
00:32:55.280
yeah, man, I feel completely left behind who live in more. And oh, okay. Consider also like
00:33:01.380
boomers versus millennials. When you actually look, I mean, millennials will make fun of boomers and
00:33:06.560
vice versa about like their cultural things. But in the end, the big resentment is the younger
00:33:12.440
generations are like, the boomers have all the money. They have all this wealth. They're like,
00:33:15.880
oh, just work and you'll be fine. And like, it doesn't work that way anymore. And there's a lot
00:33:19.500
of resentment there and it stems from resources.
00:33:21.940
Yeah. Well, I mean, this explains why if you go to all of the protests against Trump,
00:33:25.660
it's like only boomers. People have been talking about either boomer protests. There's like no
00:33:32.220
Yeah, absolutely. And, and I think, you know, to your point about this, this urban monoculture as well,
00:33:37.140
I think a lot of that also then also it boils down to class. You have a higher resourced,
00:33:43.460
more educated class of people that has become homogenized. And then you have a bunch of other
00:33:48.800
people. And it, it, it gets weird for, with that, because then you have the, the urban monoculture
00:33:55.820
also being really socialist and like, they hate people with money, but they are the ones.
00:34:01.360
No, we're not socialists. What, what socialism and communism is, is it is the ossification of the
00:34:08.280
bureaucratic hierarchy that is existing within our society, but just making it so that the bureaucrats
00:34:13.980
have to work even less. When we talk about like AI eroding bureaucratic jobs, it does that if we
00:34:18.900
maintain capitalism. If we switch to socialism, they get to keep their positions within the system
00:34:26.220
I'm keeping power and communal narcissism as we talked about.
00:34:30.640
At any time in human history is never about wealth redistribution in any sort of real sense.
00:34:37.660
It is about the ossification of a bureaucratic power structure.
00:34:41.460
Okay. Well that explains it, but I mean, I'm just trying to point out that a lot of seemingly
00:34:46.340
cultural conflicts in the end are about competition over jobs, housing, political power, um, and in
00:34:53.120
class position influences who perceives opportunity and who feels threatened. And with the gender wars,
00:34:58.960
a lot of this comes from, man, like women have been given all this like affirmative action and they get
00:35:03.580
all the bureaucratic roles and they're doing better in education. And there's a lot of resentment
00:35:06.780
about it. And maybe it would be more productive if people just explicitly talked about that, like
00:35:10.540
Arctotherium does, whether or not it's true, because some studies have found, like they looked at some
00:35:16.140
areas where men did get better economic achievement and better social status, and that still didn't
00:35:20.920
produce more children. So I don't, you know, like there's, but we should be having that conversation
00:35:25.160
instead of just being like, outside of children, women today, like if you look at this generation,
00:35:30.940
there's been some graphs that we've gone over in other episodes. They increasingly, like over the past
00:35:35.320
10 years, believe that women increasingly, like with a sharp increase, there is a perception among
00:35:40.760
women that women are being treated worse over, over time. That society is more unfair towards women,
00:35:47.180
that college entrance is more unfair towards women, even though like by the facts, this is objectively
00:35:51.740
untrue to anyone who's like living in reality. And so I think that, you know, they say, well,
00:35:58.380
you're just living in different realities because you're seeing different class norms.
00:36:01.580
And it's like, no, we on the conservative side acknowledge their class norms and their reality
00:36:09.180
often, like there's some instances where there's like the maid situation and they just have no idea
00:36:13.500
what's going on because they've never experienced it. But broadly speaking, we acknowledge their class
00:36:18.080
norms and they are unaware or are they, they actively choose to be like, no, you people aren't
00:36:24.400
experiencing these things. They, they, they will say no.
00:36:27.200
Because they're the privileged ones and, and the men are the lower class ones.
00:36:30.740
No, no, no. They'll be like, they'll be like, oh, you know, like upper class woman will be like,
00:36:35.120
oh, like upper middle class. I just can't find a guy who meets my standards. And we're like, yes,
00:36:39.620
you can't. I agree. Here's why we will say like, oh, I lost my job because of an immigrant or
00:36:46.220
something like that at the car shop. And they'll be like, that didn't happen. Or, you know, like
00:36:50.880
actually, you know, there are really big differences between the SNO cultural groups in this
00:36:55.740
country. And then they're, they're not exactly living harmoniously with each other. And they'll
00:37:01.080
be like, no, you haven't experienced that because your crime is actually a real problem right now
00:37:06.780
in my, my city. Can you do something about it? And they're like, well, I just looked outside and
00:37:11.180
it's not a problem. Right. Or like they stole my car and really that was a good thing because
00:37:16.300
now somebody who needs it, has it, you know, probably need. Yeah. Oh gosh. Those arguments I
00:37:21.300
haven't heard in a long time, but there were absolutely those arguments of, well, I think
00:37:25.440
he needed my bike more than I did. There was a, there was a not too long ago, or maybe like a
00:37:30.200
couple of years ago, post by a comedian where somebody had broken into his car and he goes,
00:37:33.620
well, this is just like the price you lay to live, live in a wonderful city like LA. And it's like,
00:37:39.640
well, you know, if you actually didn't have a lot of money, somebody breaking into your car
00:37:43.740
is a huge financial deal, even if they don't steal it. Yeah. I remember when your car was broken into
00:37:51.080
and it was, yeah. It's not like, it's not like even people who, you know, are, are not on the
00:37:58.560
lowest ends of, of society aren't really hurt by that. I mean, we still own that Mazda and we,
00:38:04.880
we drive it every day. Like these are forever cars. Like, I don't know what to say.
00:38:11.260
Like our frugalness. I still live with the very first car I ever got. And we, we work on it all
00:38:17.880
the time to keep it good, but yeah. Oh, I get to be one of those guys who keeps the car for so long.
00:38:21.560
It becomes like a classic. I don't know if a 2010 Mazda is ever really going to become.
00:38:26.600
It's a good car. Yes. I like, I'm very, it's, it's been like nothing. It doesn't do any,
00:38:33.080
it is, it is the Simone of cars, right? Like workhorse doesn't complain, doesn't break down very much.
00:38:40.760
As long as you drive it the right way, you know. Classics after 30 years.
00:38:46.940
I don't know. Is there some designation? Is this like vintage versus antique? You got to school me.
00:38:52.780
I don't do, I don't do cars. A car needs to be 20 years old to be a classic. This car is 15 years old.
00:38:59.360
All right. I'm five years from being a classic. It becomes a classic in 2030, Simone.
00:39:07.420
Well, hold on to it, my friend. I had no intention of selling it. That's, that's crazy. I could actually
00:39:13.220
be that, that old man who's driving around a classic car.
00:39:19.100
Your mom maligned. We can't even, we can't even say online, which she called it. That's one of
00:39:26.400
those few things we can't even say. Right. Yeah. Anyway. God. Wait, do you have any other arguments
00:39:31.320
here? No, I just, I, I actually, I, I want people to think more about why they're actually mad about
00:39:38.480
things or mad at groups. I disagree. I think that they're mad at them because of the unfair dating
00:39:43.020
and market dynamics and the systemic unfairness towards men. But what I will. Yeah. And I think
00:39:47.160
that's a resource thing. No, but what I will. No, no. I'm saying this is their predominant area of
00:39:51.660
madness. What I will agree with, with this article is that. Not area of madness. The primary reason
00:39:57.600
for their grievance. You make it sound like they're crazy. Whatever. You see, this is, this is,
00:40:01.580
I am speaking like a lower class person, area of madness. And you are speaking like an upper
00:40:06.700
middle class person. Reason for grievance. Well, I don't think that men appreciate
00:40:13.000
being referred to as hysterical. That's what they do to the women. I, I, Simone. So, so no,
00:40:18.860
I'm just using like broad words that anyone can use. And you're trying to get all fancy with your
00:40:23.220
language here. Um, you're fancification in your words, but upper middle class feminine ways.
00:40:30.060
Yes. But the point I'm making is that I think that she's wrong and that the grievance areas are,
00:40:36.580
are being misinterpreted. But what I will agree with is that these two movements have become coded
00:40:41.280
with different social communities or different social classes. And I think it's important to ask
00:40:46.900
why are they being coded with these various social classes? And it's not that I don't think that a lot
00:40:51.940
of the foot soldiers of wokeism are impoverished people, but they are impoverished people living with
00:40:58.560
like 20 people in a like polyamorous house and like Manhattan or Portland to live the simulacrum of
00:41:06.560
the upper middle class lifestyle. There is this obsession with living within the simulacrum of
00:41:12.580
this lifestyle. And I think that part of that is downstream of women's psychological differences in
00:41:18.420
men and the, the males saying, Hey, I want to be accepted by the norm, like, like of this larger,
00:41:25.680
like new right community. Therefore I am going to appeal to the average man. I'm going to, you know,
00:41:31.140
like Elon with the gaming stuff or like asthma gold or like, and I think that that is also
00:41:36.580
downstream of the dominant culture was in this movement, which as we've noted, it's our own
00:41:40.520
culture, which is the sort of greater abolition, like clan based cultural tradition, which is very
00:41:44.740
okay with differences in very hostile towards elitism and aristocracy. Well, what about all the
00:41:51.280
men who, who keep trying to show flash around money that they may or may not have? Well, this is
00:41:56.960
a point. They often rose. If you look at the men who rose in the, the last generation of the
00:42:03.740
conservative cycle, when the aristocratic cavalier group or deep South group still was a dominant
00:42:08.860
party. So you're saying the new version of aspirational male is low culture, lower class
00:42:15.420
signaling. Whereas the previous generation was flash money. It's a time thing. It's a trend thing.
00:42:23.280
Okay. Okay. That helps you. And if they do this today, either they look buffoonish or they look
00:42:29.840
like they're part of a separate cultural group. Okay. What I mean by this is that we lived in
00:42:36.100
Manhattan for, sorry, Miami for a period. And when I saw a man flash money to attempt to attract a
00:42:42.520
woman, always my initial reaction is, oh, he's a Latin American. Like I, like that was all, even if
00:42:49.660
he, I was like, he must be Latin American, right? Like he's not a American American because he's,
00:42:54.340
he's, he's acting in a way that is discordant with the dominant cultural value system was in
00:43:00.580
this country at the moment. Um, and I think that the, that either people look like they're just
00:43:06.420
signaling that they're in a, which is fine, right? Like a Latin American man in Miami,
00:43:10.460
trying to attract Latin American hoes in Miami. You got a signal to the right audience.
00:43:15.800
That's a, that's a, yeah, that's a effing game, man. Right. Like, no, I'm not going to hate the
00:43:20.140
player for that. Right. But you know, I look at that and I'm like, oh, you know, I, I would not
00:43:24.200
want those women. I, I would, I would pay to not have to sleep with those women or to not have those
00:43:30.300
women approach me. Like he is, he is fishing for a fish that I don't eat, but I have never had any
00:43:35.440
interest in eating that fish. So it's, it's just a different cultural game that he's playing. And I'm just
00:43:40.120
like, okay, fine. Play this alternate cultural game. Or I think that, oh, they're like buffoonish and
00:43:45.440
behind the times. They don't understand what's going on these days because you know, you look
00:43:49.760
at the, the, you know, the billionaire class and none of them are doing that anymore. They're
00:43:53.980
trying to hide that stuff. Yeah. And sleeping with their colleagues, their high status.
00:43:58.600
Jeff Bezos, who I've always said just looks like an out of touch buffoon. The woman he's marrying
00:44:02.540
looks like just. Yeah. But I feel like he did that to her because when they first started dating,
00:44:08.300
she wasn't, she hadn't had that much work done. It looks super low class. Yeah. But also like he
00:44:16.500
started from humble beginnings. So, you know, he's not old money people. I was, I was watching a
00:44:21.320
YouTuber talk about old money recently. I think my algorithm is serving that up ever, ever since I
00:44:26.980
watched some video about it. And she was like, oh, you know, old money, that's like, you know, 50 years.
00:44:31.560
And I'm like, no, 50 years is not old. Old money is like three generations of a family of wealth.
00:44:36.440
It is not. Yeah. Jeff Bezos is, is new money. And therefore it should come as no surprise that
00:44:42.300
his wife doesn't look like, oh, it's like that scene from Legally Blonde where.
00:44:47.540
No, I'm going to push back here. I think the old money, new money distinction is stupid.
00:44:50.620
There is a lot of, first of all, we argued in another video, I don't think it's gone live yet,
00:44:56.180
that old money basically doesn't exist anymore. That it.
00:44:58.840
No, no, no. That was in our AI and social class video where we talked about basically.
00:45:02.200
I think that the social class has mostly dissolved at this point.
00:45:04.800
Right. And so right now, what you have is two groups and, and both of them are fairly new wealth.
00:45:10.740
One of them is, is sort of hip with the times and everything like that. This is like your Elon
00:45:16.440
or your Zuckerberg. I mean, he might be like a bit out of it, but he broadly knows what's going on
00:45:21.780
or your Teals or your Andreessen's or whatever. Right. And then your other is like, you know,
00:45:27.860
your Jeff Bezos or your, what's his name? Bill Gates or your, whatever. This is like a,
00:45:33.660
this is like the more generic class. And they're more like trying to culturally signal to communities
00:45:39.660
that don't really exist anymore. They're, they're trying to culturally signal to what they wanted
00:45:44.640
people to respect, you know, 50 years ago or 20 years ago when they were growing up and not the
00:45:50.500
way things are on the ground right now. So I think the old money, new money distinction is just
00:45:55.720
completely silly because it doesn't really exist anymore. It is the people who are hip to the ways that
00:46:01.680
culture has changed and people who are trying to signal to a mostly dead or gone audience that's
00:46:08.140
not really there anymore. No, I think that's a really good point. Yeah. That, that old money now
00:46:12.380
only is an aesthetic because now people with intergenerational wealth don't have the discipline
00:46:18.600
required to maintain intergenerational wealth. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's yeah. Which we talked about
00:46:25.440
this, go see AI on social class, our video on that. We basically talk about how everything we've seen
00:46:30.660
at family wealth conferences and among these types of groups is basically they're like, Oh,
00:46:35.060
I just want my kid to be happy now. Whereas before it used to be like K-pop and they, and they have no
00:46:40.820
kids themselves. Like, yeah. Whereas like before, if you look at the Kennedys, like they weren't having
00:46:44.260
fun. Those kids were like being engineered to be future presidents and politicians, you know,
00:46:49.440
they weren't, you know, this was, this was Disney kid. This was K-pop idol. Like you're going to be
00:46:55.360
so yeah. Now they're like, Oh, I just want them to be happy. So yeah. The money gets pissed away.
00:46:59.960
All right. I love you, Malcolm. Thank you. You always widen my perspective, but yeah. Cartoons
00:47:05.480
hate her fun. By the way, on the next episode, I think you might want to change the topic and you
00:47:10.460
need to ask Diana first, if we can do this topic. Okay. Cause I think it's a little rude to do it
00:47:15.720
without asking her. I did. Yeah. Well, there aren't that many people who are as bullish as we are on
00:47:21.720
raising our kids with AI. How did the episode do in terms of comments today?
00:47:26.740
People really enjoyed it. People were very keen to draw the connection between communal narcissism
00:47:34.080
and women. Communal narcissism and women. Yeah. We did the communal narcissism episode. I didn't
00:47:39.100
expect the episode to do as well as it did really. We were like, Oh, this is just such blatant red meat
00:47:44.120
for our audience. Like it's not going to hit number one and it hits number one.
00:47:47.720
When we feel like we need to get performance to work, how can we just make progressives and women
00:47:55.860
look bad? Our channel's numbers right now, by the way, Simone, you want an update? We're at,
00:48:02.180
in terms of view count just on YouTube for every 28 day period, 368,000. So getting close to a million
00:48:10.080
there. And in terms of watch time hours per 28 day period, 179.5,000. So around 180,000 hours
00:48:21.180
watch time per 28 days. That's a lot of time. I'm proud of this. We built this into something kind
00:48:29.700
of cool from a, you know, just a few people watching and my mom being like, you look like a fool
00:48:35.180
on YouTube and no one's listening. Well, she, she came around to it. She came around. So I'm glad
00:48:44.500
I think she'd be pleased. All right. You ready? Get those thick glasses on that trigger people so
00:48:52.040
freaking hard. All right. Have you lost the other glasses? I do like the other wireframe glasses.
00:48:57.240
Yeah. I should look it around for them. I have them somewhere. The core reason I don't wear them
00:49:00.800
anymore is because they're not like fitted correctly right now. Oh, okay. So we've got to
00:49:05.520
take them to New York and take them to the store where they're made because nobody else works on
00:49:09.440
them. Do you see, you put the car in the walls? Wait, he's putting the car in the house? Yes.
00:49:16.440
Yeah. I'm trying to go inside. Well then walk out the door.
00:49:21.060
Why is your car inside the house? I don't know. Why are you going for this whole,
00:49:28.520
are you like renovating? It looks a little rough.
00:49:33.440
Maybe it looks a little rough because you drove a car into your house.
00:49:37.940
Why is the cleanliness checkmarked? Yes. Oh, house condition is 23%.