In this episode, Simone and Malcolm discuss the growing trend of polyamory in Western culture, and the history of polygynism in the past and present. They discuss the role of the Catholic Church, and why it may not have been as monogamous as it is today.
00:05:33.040But I think even within our modern society, so if you look at America today, let's say America 10 years ago or something,
00:05:40.640people could say, oh, this was a predominantly monogamous society.
00:05:44.380And there was a great South Park episode on this.
00:05:47.360And the central joke of the episode is a bunch of males on, like, TV and scientists were trying to figure out why rich men kept cheating on their wives.
00:05:58.220And obviously, the joke was every man knew, but they had to pretend like it was very confusing why men kept cheating on women when they became super famous and wealthy.
00:06:07.360And this was framed around the Tiger Woods controversy and then some other controversies.
00:06:11.120And they would give a monkey a bunch of money and it would go out and cheat on its wife.
00:06:14.580And they were like, this is such a bizarre phenomenon.
00:06:17.580But the joke being is it's obvious why this happens.
00:06:22.300However, I think it's not obvious why it happens.
00:06:59.500Or having these, like, basically open relationships.
00:07:03.060So what's actually going on here is this market pressures.
00:07:06.040Hypergamy is the reason this is happening.
00:07:12.000The same market pressures that lead to your average woman, like average attractiveness, average wealth, average – like if you're just marking women on a scale of 0 to 100, and, like, your average woman is a 50, your average woman has much, much, much more dating market power than your average man.
00:07:32.100Like, the famous Tinder study where they found that your average man, like if you rank men – so your median man is liked on Tinder by less than 1% of women.
00:07:44.740That's so incredibly, like, low power.
00:07:47.880Whereas your average woman – I forgot what it was.
00:07:49.400I think it might have been around 50% of men, like your average woman on Tinder, which just shows this huge disparity in market.
00:07:55.760And because most guys, like, fall into this average territory, in their world, this is what they're focused on, the unfair market dynamics here.
00:08:03.740However, if you're sort of around, like, the ultra-wealthy or elite society, you're going to notice much more the opposite problem, which is a top 1% man has dramatically more market value than a top 1% woman.
00:08:21.300It's astronomically more – it's astronomically more.
00:08:24.340A top 1% man is much more desirable than a top 1% woman than an average woman is to an average man.
00:08:38.200Why is it that, like, if you're talking about, like, literally the most desirable male in the world today, they'd be astronomically more desirable than the most desirable female?
00:08:48.560So if all women – because, you know, men broadly know this – are pairing with the top 20 or so percent of men and disproportionately with the ones at the very top of that 20%, the top 1, 2, 3%, that means that any guy who's at sort of the top of the desirability hierarchy is going to have a choice.
00:09:09.400The women who are trying to date him are not just competing with women of their level of desirability.
00:09:16.840They're competing with every – basically every woman in the world.
00:09:21.840And what's worse from the perspective of that woman is these other women can augment their desirability to that male by altering aspects of the relationship contract that they are presenting that male with.
00:09:35.500So when we've talked about this before, the example I've used is you might pay more for an apartment if that apartment allows you to have dogs in the apartment, right?
00:09:43.580Because nothing has changed about the apartment itself, but it is more desirable to your average person on the market.
00:09:49.820A woman coming to a man and saying, I don't mind if you sleep around, this can increase her desirability pretty dramatically to the man.
00:09:59.660I think it's notable also because we've seen a lot of people's requirements for partners.
00:10:05.480It's extremely rare for a woman to say that, like just period.
00:10:18.540Or additional copyouts, like I will bring you other people to sleep with.
00:10:22.200And this creates an environment where men who are in this top 1% of the dating market, and we have seen this within the communities that we're in, it is actually, I think, pretty rare in those communities for women to not allow them to sleep around.
00:10:38.720And we're talking about within modern America, conservative male circles.
00:10:43.380And I think that this really surprises people.
00:10:47.500But here's another thing that people get wrong about this.
00:10:52.020So they hear this, and they say, yeah, but my perception has been historically, right, that when I see people do this polygynous thing, allow their partner to sleep around at any extent, or do the polyamory thing, it always leads to the death of the marriage, right?
00:11:11.820And this is really interesting, but I would unfortunately say this is the bad toupee phenomenon, because what you are actually noticing, where if you have friends, where they, so there's a few ways a relationship can be open, and a few ways a relationship can be closed.
00:11:33.840We're specifically talking about polygyny and not poly.
00:11:36.460Poly is pretty rare among these circles.
00:11:38.960For a man to allow his wife to sleep with other people is actually incredibly rare for these exact same market phenomenon when you're talking within these circles.
00:11:48.860Now, while most of these men are actually allowed to sleep around when you're talking about these ultra-wealthy men, the strength of their relationship is often outwardsly publicly visible by how much they actually choose to.
00:12:04.500And this is the thing that people miss.
00:12:07.420For example, if you look at our relationship, if you're asking the question, are we like poly or polygynous or whatever?
00:12:16.140The answer is very interesting, because we are in so far as I do not have a rule saying I can't sleep with other people, whereas you have a rule saying you can't sleep with other people in our relationship contract.
00:12:33.640However, if you're asking, are we polygynous in practice?
00:12:38.900No, because you make a point of fulfilling all my needs.
00:12:44.060And the contract point that says you are allowed to sleep with other people says you are allowed to sleep with other people after you have notified me this is the needs that aren't being met.
00:12:54.400Well, I mean, as one person who's much older than us and much more old fashioned said to us at one point was like, well, if I can't have steak in the sheets, I'm going to get hamburger in the streets.
00:13:05.540And like that, I don't know, sounded fairly accurate for I think how many husbands feel and I think how the arrangement often works is in many long term marriages, like after a while, a wife may become less interested in sex that happens often, you know, like she just isn't that interested in it.
00:13:24.180And or one of the partners becomes less attractive, making it not as fun for the other partner to get intimate.
00:13:30.920And that can go both ways, not just with wives, but with husbands, too, like sometimes husbands just become a lot less appealing.
00:13:36.520So it's actually a really nice solution to just have that solution met outside the relationship.
00:13:43.860Yeah, well, and some women prefer that, but that does lower their ability to maintain a partner potentially if they're allowing him to source these things outside the relationship.
00:13:53.760But it could, but the really, the larger point that I'm making here is when people say, are you guys polygynous, they think what they're asking is, are you sleeping outside of your marriage?
00:14:17.840And that's a very interesting distinction where there are multiple ways a woman who is married to a very high value male can keep that male monogamous to them.
00:14:30.240One way is to say, you are not allowed to sleep outside of our relationship.
00:14:36.440The other way is to say, I will ensure that you have all of your needs fulfilled to a level where even with the Coolidge effect being in place, you will not have a desire to sleep with women outside the relationship.
00:14:52.220And I think it's worth noting, too, that just because you have a rule against someone sleeping outside of a marriage doesn't mean they're not going to sleep outside of marriage.
00:15:04.740And there's plenty of research showing rates of cheating in marriages over time.
00:15:19.840So part of this also is, well, would you, I mean, I think a lot of people, and we see this also with genetic information, right?
00:15:25.180Like a lot of people don't want to get genetically sequenced because they're like, well, if I have a higher risk of getting cancer, I don't want to know.
00:15:30.180Which, you know, to us is like bizarre because obviously if you have a bigger risk of heart attacks or cancer or whatever, you should get screened for that.
00:15:38.120You know, like you should know about it so you can prepare and reduce odds of that biting you in the ass.
00:15:42.660However, I think many people have a sort of avoidant response to things like cheating or like health risks, and they would just rather not know.
00:15:50.200So I think there's sort of this subtle in like forced monogamy marriages, this subtle undercurrent of, yeah, if you need to cheat on me, just do it and don't get caught.
00:16:01.680Whereas there's this other sort of mindset of, no, I mean, yeah, like we may not, I cannot promise that I'm always going to be super attracted to you or super attractive myself.
00:16:12.120And if that happens, I'd rather have it happen in a way that doesn't kill our marriage or that doesn't hurt me or hurt you.
00:16:17.700And so we just think it's personally, we think it's a better approach.
00:16:20.640But I think it's also something that requires a huge level of emotional maturity and a huge level of mutual commitment to something bigger than just each other's feelings or one's own feelings.
00:16:31.440Also, it's really helpful to have this in general, because if you do decide to sleep with someone outside our marriage, it is like a warning sign to me that, oh, maybe you're not totally happy.
00:16:41.160Maybe, you know, we need to reevaluate or talk about, you know, how things are going.
00:16:46.340And that's the point where I think the person is noticing here when they're like, I've seen people who are like aggressively poly or whatever, are sleeping around a lot outside their marriage.
00:16:58.000That's a warning sign, regardless of what the rules are within your relationship, regardless of whether or not a person is allowed to sleep outside their marriage.
00:17:07.060The fact that they feel the need to regularly is a sign that there is something systemic that they are not getting from their partner.
00:17:17.540Now, for some individuals, they might be able to stably source that from another person.
00:17:41.540Yeah, I don't know if I have ever seen that be really stable where the man actually felt the need to constantly get that from other people.
00:17:53.020Where I've seen this be much more stable in relationships is the woman's look.
00:17:58.000I'm not going to leave you or anything if you sleep around outside the relationship.
00:18:01.960However, I prefer if you tell me and you try to let me solve these needs before you feel the need to go outside the relationship.
00:18:08.760And the level to which this increases the stability of the relationship really can't be overstated.
00:18:14.320Because one, the woman has much more information in terms of the guy's no longer satisfied with her.
00:18:19.940She learns that at a lower threshold and begin to get a true measure of like how does she solve for that.
00:18:27.120And two, the guy cannot end the marriage or it's much harder for the guy to end the marriage just because he wants sex.
00:18:39.440And this is actually really important because a lot of people, when they're creating sort of the rules of their relationship, there is this implicit understanding that if one partner breaks the rules, then the relationship is over.
00:18:51.400However, what is true a lot of the time.
00:18:55.400Generally, when a woman cheats, to most men, they would rather be outside of the relationship.
00:19:00.300There was an interesting study that, or not a study, it was a Twitter poll that somebody did, where they're like, would you rather sleep with a hundred people other than your wife or allow your wife to sleep with one other person?
00:19:11.600Like, no, I would rather she not sleep with one other person.
00:19:14.460So, for guys, they're actually usually willing to, or fairly frequently willing to pull the trigger if the woman sleeps outside of their relationship.
00:19:44.600For women, the number of women who would actually end a high-valued relationship because their partner is sleeping with other women is generally pretty low unless it's like a point of pride thing or something like that.
00:19:59.140And then this creates a really dangerous phenomenon because as soon as they catch the guy cheating, right, but there was this implicit understanding in the relationship they would leave him if he did that, but then they don't leave him.
00:20:12.180Well, then that begins to break all of the other rules in the relationship because now all of a sudden none of the rules in the relationship matter.
00:20:19.940Worse, there was a reason for this dishonesty.
00:20:22.160And I think that that's another thing that this brings in, which is really valuable, which is there's a lack of a reason for me to be, what I have, I don't know.
00:20:31.480With you sleeping with other men, it's an interesting question because I just, you wouldn't?
00:20:38.620Yeah, like the idea, I mean, you've never slept with anyone before me.
00:20:41.600Like, it's just not an issue that would come up.
00:20:45.180Yeah, so it's not like there would be a desire there.
00:20:47.580But I do feel that there is a level of truth where this is something I would never need to lie to you about, where you get that information and we are able to deal with it internally as a couple.
00:21:02.540So I guess what we're saying here, and this is an interesting nuance that I think a lot of people don't get, is we do think it is a problem when somebody sleeps around a lot outside their marriage.
00:21:12.860However, I also think that marriages that are built with a rule where the reason that the guy isn't sleeping around is because there is a rule against sleeping around instead of all of my needs are filled and we're perfectly honest with each other.
00:21:28.820I think that actually the second type of marriage is probably going to be stronger in terms of within this current market context where there's like women throwing themselves at me all the time.
00:21:39.020Yeah, I will add that I started out sort of insecure in a relationship because Malcolm actually is like quite desirable as a partner and gets hit on a lot.
00:21:50.140And I do think that you have to have a pretty secure aligned marriage for something like this to work, especially when you're with a really desirable partner.
00:21:58.080Now, I think if you have a relatively low value partner, it's, I think it's really easy to feel like, of course you can, because I mean, good luck, but the big risk is really for that small portion of the population.
00:22:08.640Like you, Malcolm, and I think this really surprises a lot of people because they like love calling you a soy boy, but I don't think they realize a lot of women are super into whatever it is you're serving.
00:22:19.440But yeah, like for that portion of the population, they're the ones who are going to be really interested in it because one, they can get away.
00:22:27.520The demand is there. The opportunity is actually there, but you need a really secure and aligned marriage for that to work as well.
00:22:34.660Because, you know, if this does happen and the wife isn't secure, it could cause just a lot of mental discomfort and suffering that isn't exactly ideal.
00:22:45.100Well, this is actually a really important point. The fact that you know that you have allowed me to sleep with these women and I am choosing not to sleep with them, not because I'm not allowed to, but because I actually do not desire to, given what you're giving me, likely makes you feel much more confident about our relationship than you would if I was not sleeping with them because you had placed some rule against me sleeping with them.
00:23:12.840Yeah, that's true. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, I think it would be pretty crappy to be in a marriage where you know that your husband isn't sleeping with people because just 100% he's not allowed to. That's pretty bad. Yeah.
00:23:30.540The impression I get isn't actually I mean, and I think that the key is a lot if the if the husband sleeping out of out of the marriage a lot, because I think when most people cheat, and I don't have the stats on this exactly, but this is the impression I get for most of the reading I've done about it.
00:23:44.760It's not a lot. You know, it's, you know, someone meets a high school friend on a business trip, you know, like stuff happens. And I think it's really helpful to have that flexibility. I think where it's a problem, especially is where someone sleeping outside of the marriage quite regularly. Because usually when we've seen that happen, usually the person that the man is sleeping with is more or less interested in becoming the primary partner.
00:24:11.100I think it's very unusual for a man to sleep with a woman outside of a relationship regularly for that person to not expect significant resources in return. And that undermines the marriage. So I think that's more like the big issue.
00:24:24.140Right. But being open about this helps undermine that possibility.
00:24:32.220Because if so suppose I was to find a person who I was regularly sleeping with outside of the marriage, right? You would just be able to say I am no longer I'm not okay with that.
00:24:42.820Even the way that this is structured. And that lowers any, any like hook that this person was getting. So because we were, we would be being honest in this situation, and I would be telling you that this was happening.
00:24:55.960You would be able to much more reasonably than saying, I am not okay with you sleeping with any other women. Say I am not okay with you sleeping with that woman, because she's trying to disrupt the dynamics of our relationship.
00:25:09.680Yeah, yeah. And there's always the risk, I think, both with that, like permission and without permission, that ultimately, like the connection between the guy and the woman that he's sleeping with outside of the marriage is going to be stronger than the marriage itself, and that the marriage falls apart. Like that's always a possibility.
00:25:26.480But I don't, I think it's actually less, it's less possible or less likely when it's not cheating, when it's permitted within the marriage.
00:25:35.320Well, and also because the woman would know that the spouse knows about this and has okayed it. So they know that through sleeping with you, because this is actually a really dangerous thing about this way of breaking up a marriage, is through sleeping with the husband, she is doing something that she also knows could destroy the marriage, could drive a wedge between him and his wife in a way that breaks up the marriage.
00:25:59.940So she is getting a one-two punch in through this act, which would be a lot harder when you structure the relationship differently.
00:26:08.640And I think another thing that's really telling here is a woman asking herself, which is just not done in many marriages these days, which is really sad, where you have these total monogamy rules, how do I ensure that my husband is fully satisfied?
00:26:28.080And there is no pressure to ensure that, which is why I think you get many of these stereotypes, like women getting fat after they get married or women in other ways becoming undesirable.
00:26:40.100So you think there's a problem of entitlement is really what you're saying here.
00:26:43.360Yeah, like you don't feel that you are like, you work really hard to stay very desirable to me, because you know that if you did not, I would have other options.
00:26:58.100But because you do, I would find the idea of going out and sourcing other women or allowing other women who hit on me to sleep with me, really personally disgusting.
00:27:07.920As I've talked to you, the idea, because I have this emotional attachment to you, that you have worked to build through being an amazing wife, because you have engendered that, even though I'm allowed to, even though I regularly get very attractive women throwing themselves at me, turning them down is very, very easy for me.
00:27:29.660And natural, not like I'm turning them down because I'm giving something up, I'm turning them down because the idea of strange is disgusting.
00:27:39.880And it's something that I think is hard for somebody who's never been in a long-term loving relationship to understand as a male, is that male sexuality does sort of transform when you begin to see a partner as like your primary.
00:27:54.380And you began to think of other women as like gross.
00:28:00.440Well, and I find this interesting, because I mean, I think part of that's that you just like your life isn't built around hedonism.
00:28:07.160So you're not exactly the best sample for like how a male is going to behave when given these types of rules.
00:28:12.440However, people that we know who do sleep outside of their marriages a lot and have like insanely, maybe even like clinically unhealthy levels, like maybe like literal sex addictions, often are still very dedicated to their marriages and are often sleeping outside of their marriages because their wives like literally have no physical affection for them.
00:28:36.500Well, I see this with older couples a lot.
00:28:40.100And I just, but I think that there's something to be said there that even there is some, it's not just right to assume that a man is just going to want to take on infinite wives and not be very attached to them.
00:28:52.200Even Louis XIV had really just one primary mistress at a time.
00:29:01.060It's really more like he was a serial monogamous like person, but he had a couple dalliances here and there, but he was mostly dedicated to one woman after another.
00:29:26.100Young men really would like to sleep often with five different women a week or something like that, right?
00:29:30.600Like, but when you talk about the ideal sexual relationship for an older man or a middle-aged man, most of them are going to say, oh, yes, it's a single woman every day.
00:29:41.580Like in movies, they treat this like it's some sort of horrifying thing.
00:29:46.660Whereas I think if you ask most like mid-30s men, what is your ideal relationship?
00:29:51.880Even if they are like a really sexually open person, it's got one partner who I really care for and who I, you know, do something with, you know, have kids, work with in some way and every day for the rest of my life.
00:30:04.360And that's where I think our biology is also different from what many people anticipate, even when you have the Coolidge effect.
00:30:12.000So the Coolidge effect, I referenced it before.
00:30:14.480It's the idea that to a man, a new partner, like all other things being equal, will be more sexually interesting to him than an existing partner or a partner he slept with before.
00:30:26.720Well, and to give the backstory, allegedly, this is apocryphal.
00:30:30.420Calvin Coolidge, when president, toured some kind of chicken farm or something.
00:30:34.060And it was mentioned to his wife as she was touring, I guess, a little bit ahead of him that like, oh, well, this one rooster will have sex with, you know, this, you know, like this many times a day.
00:30:44.200And apparently she wasn't seeing a whole lot of action and she wasn't exactly thrilled about that.
00:30:47.920And so she told that to Mr. Coolidge, you know, this rooster has, you know, sex this many times a day.
00:31:55.940For me, sometimes when people talk about colligionary or polyamory, they're not really considering the situations in which the partner is allowed to sleep around,
00:32:30.200And if people are wondering why this has gotten so big in the big cities, the one point I'd really make is for the high valued men and women,
00:32:40.680what you typically see happening is many women to one man, like many women are going after one man.
00:32:46.720But when you're dealing with the lower value poly individuals, a lot of men, you know,
00:32:52.360MGTOW or whatever men complain of, there's just no woman who wants to date an average guy.
00:32:58.560And monogamy used to solve this, but the way they're now solving it in these ultra progressive cities.
00:33:03.420And I've seen this in like group houses and stuff like that, is that some dumpy kind of obese average woman will have five guys who she's dating.
00:33:12.820Like one guy isn't good enough for her, but five guys.
00:33:16.340So what, what often really ends up happening in the quote unquote polyamory community is that you actually have a polygyny when, when you're dealing with the, the wealthy people, where it's one male, many females.
00:33:33.020And then the, the opposite of that, I want to say, I forget what it's called.
00:33:59.560So there's a difference between the, the aspiration and what actually happens.
00:34:03.400But anyway, Simone, I have loved talking with you about this.
00:34:06.460And I do feel really blessed that you have created an environment where even though there's no rule against me going with other women, I have no desire to, just because you are such a great wife.
00:34:20.420And, and so people would be like, oh, I haven't seen relationships where people say, yeah, relationships don't, but I, I, I just, I don't have any.
00:34:28.180You, you, you give me too much credit.
00:34:29.900I think literally you just had so many sexual partners before you got married.
00:34:33.280You're like, I don't need this anymore.
00:34:35.780I think you put yourself on a hard mode in the relationship.
00:34:40.440Well, this is pretty much our, it's, it's our, it's our philosophy in general, right?
00:34:44.900Like with the, the travel business that we run, like we really don't like getting contractual clients.
00:34:49.840We like clients who work with us, not because we've signed some kind of contract and they have to be exclusive with us.
00:34:54.440We want clients to work with us because we provided such a great service that they want to come back.
00:34:58.680Like it sucks to work with someone who has to work with you.
00:35:01.980And in general, I think our philosophy is against coercion and for free choice.
00:35:06.900You know, that, that people should have the ability to choose the culture that works best for them, to choose the businesses that work best for them, to choose the nation or home or whatever that works best for them.
00:35:16.320And I think that falls down to like our relationship philosophy as well, that partners should have the freedom to choose whatever sort of partner works best for them.
00:35:24.860Now, I mean, I think the same goes for women and yes, so technically we have a rule where I can't sleep with anyone, but that's more because I really don't want to sleep with anyone.
00:35:32.280Yeah, no, no, no. And I feel like if you really, I want you to tell me because it would mean that our relationship is over if I can't fix whatever was causing you to want to do that.
00:35:41.560But also, you know, it's, we're perfectly in support of women sleeping outside of marriages too.
00:35:47.620They just have to be aware of the costs that are associated with that.
00:35:50.240Like everything like free market dynamics, you know, allow people to make choices and pay the price for making those choices.
00:35:57.980Well, we shall see, right? You never know where we're going to be in 10 years.
00:36:01.080So we've been together for 10 years at this point. I don't think something crazy is going to change.
00:36:06.700Yeah. You know, I mean, there's 10 more kids like men tend to age better than women. Let's be honest about this.
00:36:13.320Yeah. Well, so if I was, and this is where I think this really falls apart is if you were married to the types of cretin that I want a 24 year old woman over, you know, I don't know.
00:36:24.280Part of me finds the idea of sleeping with much younger women, like really disgusting.
00:36:28.880I, I've, I've, I've, and Simone knows this, you know, I've had a lot of younger women who have worked around us hit on me.
00:36:40.600It's a little weird. And I just find it, I guess like visually I can be like, Oh, like I can look at a younger woman and be like, yes, younger women are more attractive than older women.
00:36:54.400But like the actual idea of sleeping with them as an older man is, I don't know. It's repellent.
00:37:02.160But you know, keep in mind, that's not the norm. So just, I do think it's the norm. I do think it's the norm. And I think some of the guys who are doing this are really outside the norm, because I think, you know, when you look at the relationships, we know like these ultra wealthy men, I actually don't see them sleeping with that many younger women.
00:37:18.000Unless they're in like weird relationships where they're like actually cheating on their partner. When the wife knows it's typically not somebody dramatically younger.
00:37:30.680I think it really depends. I think there's a lot of variation. So it's, you know, it's hard to say. And I wouldn't say that you're, you're normative. I mean, it's very unusual for a man to have the high partner count that you've had.
00:37:41.480I think it's very unusual for a man to find, you know, like 20 something women to be more attractive.
00:37:48.640Well, no, I can see them more physically attractive. But I think there's, there's, yeah, I guess this is my thing about status, right?
00:37:56.740Where I guess I'd find a lower, like sleeping with a lower status woman really repellent the idea.
00:38:03.320Yeah, yeah. I mean, everyone's different. But yeah, I do think that this is the kind of discussion that's not being had out loud a lot.
00:38:10.900I'm glad we're talking about it. I'm curious to see, like in the comments, if other people have, have given this a try.
00:38:17.440I mean, I think it's pretty unusual. I mean, the thing is, I think it's super common, but not, not where people talk about it, I guess.
00:38:25.020So yeah, I'm curious to see what people say.
00:38:27.000But what would you call it if you were going to come up with a name for it?
00:38:34.400Yeah, I mean, the red pill uses, or at least used, like back when I read a bunch of it, they'd be like, yeah, the dread game is where you, you as a man, if you're spinning plates, like if the woman knows that she has competition, that's the dread game.
00:38:47.500But it's also considered an incentive.
00:38:49.460The female partner is going to be incentivized to be a good female partner because she knows that she has no exclusive contract, essentially.
00:38:56.960Well, I'm glad we had this conversation. It's always fun. I like really look forward to these now. It's like my unwinding time.
00:39:04.440No, it is really fun. What do you call it? Like weird base conversations about things.
00:39:11.540Yeah, that's the point of this podcast.
00:39:13.460Just meaning that the ideas that no one's allowed to have. We are okay with polyamory, but it's also bad to sleep with someone who's not your primary partner.