Are We Nationalists？
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Summary
In this episode, we discuss a question from a reporter who was horrified that their reporter went to a pro-natalist convention and asked the question, "What's wrong with nationalism?" and what is the point of nationalism?
Transcript
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hello simone i am excited to be here with you today today we are going to be discussing a
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question that came from a reporter who was horrified that they went to natal con and they
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go well you know this natalism stuff you know it seems okay like i agree with what you're saying
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there but why is it all wrapped up with all of these horrible other ideas like you know
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religiosity and nationalism and all this other nazi stuff and i was like wait actually i was
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like wait what like are you because you know normally i might be like well you know i support
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pernatalism i don't support everything that everyone says who goes to like a pernatalist
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convention here's like wait what's wrong with religiosity and nationalism right like first
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religiosity we'll just take this aside you know i'm sorry that it's associated with better
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mental health longer life you know less stress less anxiety through those people through those
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people just we'll throw all that aside okay um but let's just talk about the concept of nationalism
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because i was like wait i don't think there's anything really objectionable about nationalism like
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i i don't look what is what is wrong with nationalism like i understand for example like
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nazis were nationalists but nazis also were like animal and nazis wore underwear and they also pooped
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and they also drove in cars really big into dogs he was really big into protecting dogs and protecting
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animals and he was a vegetarian at times like is pita nazi like no like that wasn't what people
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disliked about hitler that he that he had pride in germany and german history yeah there the that is
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not the bad thing it was the genocide that was the bad thing it was the war that was the bad thing it
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was the ethnic cleansing that was the bad thing right it wasn't the loving his country that was the bad
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thing well you humans should be capable of separating out actions you know and well no in america
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at this time period when we defeated the nazis could be thought of as nothing other than nationalistic
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this was a nationalistic effort this is what individuals like captain america represent they
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represent nationalism and so i decided to i was like okay well i now i need to go into definitions to be
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like maybe there's some part of the definition of nationalism that's really offensive and i should be
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thinking more about right so i go to wikipedia and i look up the nationalism definition and it is
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really bad like i i could read the paragraph and it wouldn't get to a line that made sense until we
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it's not like misleading it's just gobbledygook okay so then i clicked on civic nationalism because i was
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like okay well maybe this will get to the point okay and civic nationalism otherwise known as democratic
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nationalism is a form of nationalism that adheres to traditional liberal values of freedom tolerance
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equality and individual rights at and is not based on eston nationalism so i'm like okay cool the
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foreign nationalism is not essence because obviously like we're not ethno-nationalists like no one
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could argue that right yeah civic nationalists defend the value of national identity by saying that
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individuals need it as a partial shared aspect of their identity and upper identity in order to lead
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meaningful autonomous lives and that democratic polities need a national identity to function
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properly that that seems like an obvious truth do they argue that they don't do they argue that like
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a country no anarchy that's the only way things will ever work no i think that they genuinely believe
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that a country should value the needs of non-citizens over the needs of citizens like that's genuinely what
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they're asking for here and a lot of progressives actually believe this that's true yeah back to the
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whole progressives care about rocks problem right no but when we talk about things i'm like well
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somebody was like well what about immigrants because i created like this state structure and
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this horrified guardian reporter was talking to me because they found a leaked version of this was
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their undercover reporter about a nation state i wanted to create and i still love that they published
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that thank you guardian you are our best pr you know the guardian is our personal pr team with their
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their hate and screes against us but i i found a they they came to me and they go well okay so it doesn't
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look like people who don't contribute to the state really have a vote or a voice in this system like
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why would they migrate to your country if they don't have a voice i was like oh this isn't really for
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a country for people who don't contribute like they can stay where they are like yeah we're not
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trying to get to them as we respect people who love those people and our state functions in a
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different way when i think america can be the same right like we don't need people who are drains on the
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state yeah did other states apparently will poison themselves with those populations yeah or i mean
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to be more gentle with it like the people who value those people are welcome to pay for those
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people meaning that like right now for example one our kids aren't paid for by the state right like
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we pay for them because we value them and if we didn't value them we wouldn't have them and therefore
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we wouldn't pay for them and i think that's kind of that's a because i think there's this implication
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that like oh what are you going to do euthanize anyone who's not valuable no like just we're not
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going to pay for them yeah we're not going to pay for them it's not that we it reminds me of the us
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aid thing where like this this aids program in africa was shut down called like prefab or something
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and all these people came out and they're like do you want like random africans to die of aids and i was
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like no you don't either and they're like yeah i want to fight this i go so you're you're donating
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money to programs that are meant to help those people like and the great thing is a lot of people
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have subsequently stepped up and are funding programs some people a very small minority yeah
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certainly not the loudest it is acting like you are killing africans by shutting down these programs
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has stepped in to actually fund this or was funding anything like this beforehand they they wanted
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other people to pay for this stuff they didn't want to handle it themselves and this idea of i i am i am
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less killing those people by shutting down a program so that money can now go to other things in the
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united states than you are as an individual who decides to do something indulgent rather than fund
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those programs because that's something where you know 100 what that money was spent on a personal
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indulgence like going out to eat or like you know having food in or you know an orgy instead of
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putting the money into this that is your choice to let those people die whereas with the government
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money i freed up money to go to other places like that's very very different um and so i think the
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the there's that aspect to it but can to continue is reading the definition here yeah liberal nationalism
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is used in the same sense as civic nationalism but liberal ethnic nationalism also exists and state
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nationalism is a branch of civic nationalism but it also can be illiberal i don't understand what that
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matters well i guess no it matters because you you pointed out an important facet of civic nationalism
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is freedom and like liberty so i i guess that state nationalism is more coercive like you have to
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live in a certain way maybe a little bit more like soviet russia where like this is how it's done
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here you know yeah so civic nationalism is a political identity built around shared citizenship
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was in the state thus a civic nation defines itself not by culture but by the political institutions and
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liberal principles which its citizens pledged to uphold membership in the civic nation is open to
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every person by citizenship regardless of culture or ethnicities those who share these values are
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considered members of the nation and in theory a civic nation or state does not aim to promote one
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culture over the other like i love what what is your problem with people having pride in their
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cultural history right like and i look at this and this well i mean you're okay to is i mean
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unless you're white right then then it's what you're not allowed to if you're white no you're allowed
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to no matter what you're allowed to well we would argue you should be but a lot of other people would
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argue you shouldn't be well because they're they their culture depends on getting you to hate your
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ancestors because that's how they break your connections to your ancestral traditions to convert
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you into the cult yeah which is an emergent property that wasn't like no one sat down and was like
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how do i separate these people from their inheritance generations of the the viral memetic strain which is
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the urban monoculture that adopted their policy ended up spreading at a faster rate yeah and that's
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why they exist in such high numbers uh try to get people to hate their ancestry and traditions and try
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to make nationalism out to be this boogeyman when saying i love my country i love america and i'm proud
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to be an american are not things it it's almost i'd put it this way imagine you told someone from a
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different country that they're not allowed to be a proud of their nation or their country like would you
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not see how horrifying that is you know you go to some other country like mexico and you go you can't
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be proud to be a mexican like what are you doing yeah like ew what like look you you look at all the
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terrible things mexico mexicans are horrible yeah can magic oh my gosh yeah i can't even imagine like
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walking what you like peru peruvians are the worst brazil what yeah like brazil have slaves yeah can you
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possibly be proud to be a brazilian you should hate brazilians yeah and it's like what oh
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peru didn't you like have like conquistadors in your government who brutalized like native
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populations shouldn't you hate your peruvian identity didn't your didn't your indigenous
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populations practice child sacrifice oh my god well it's so funny because i think the progressive
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practice or norm when it comes to traveling abroad is oh wow you guys are so amazing your country's so
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enlightened like everything's so much better here right like anything's better than the united states
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so there's almost reverse nationalism you know the grass is always greener when it's not your own
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country it's it's not just an absence of pride in your own nation it is it is the presence of
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pride in in anyone for almost not being you even if they have more dubious moral records
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that is absolutely true yeah well and i think we see this with china and progressives where progressives
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are like oh china so great so amazing it's like no china is like really evil like
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their recent track record they're in the they're in the process of a genocide right now like you know
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that right like it's not like mid-genocide or whatever yeah they they are genociding right now
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so yeah i i i completely agree with what you're saying there and i think it's really perverse
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and pretty evil as a position to take it's not just like morally neutral or morally absent it is a it
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is a strict moral negative and i think that all of this can be seen sort of through the lens of
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progressive hatred of starship troopers where you get in all of these progressive videos and all these
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progressive pieces one of our best episodes by the way you should check it out if you haven't checked it
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out why starship troopers is so evil why the bugs were right right like why the bugs are the good
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guys and humans are the bad guys and they always point they're like well humanity is fascist and it's
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like well no they're not really fascist and they have voting you just have to make a sacrifice to vote
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like yeah you just have to earn it yeah and it's like in what way are they fascist and it's like well
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they're aesthetically fascist it's like well yeah but i don't think wearing an outfit that like
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i i would say there's a lot of things about fascists i don't like but they were snappy dresses like
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very yeah there's there's a reason why there has historically been this issue with asian
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kids like people in asia who don't know european history just accidentally wearing
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the the baddie guy costumes and uniforms because they look cool like their independent uninformed
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parties are like this this this clothing this gets it so that's that's not why like yeah so why do you
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hate the country so much in this movie why do you why do you hate what the global government they're
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like well it's racist well it's obviously not racist the president is sky marshal to hot maru who is a
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black woman from africa obviously not from like a white culture they're like well while it's this
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is even in the movie which is meant to like make it look bad it's sexist it's like well no men and
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women shower together like obviously it is less sexist than even our current society there are seen
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as no meaningful differences between men and women in this world they even serve in the military at about
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equal rights in this world yeah and so it's like okay okay okay okay it's not sexist it's not racist
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what is wrong with it it's that they have pride in their country which is the entire globe at this
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moment it even takes out any potential problem that you would have with nationalism in the united states
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where one group is elevated above another group because the group that matters in
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the movie is everyone in the entire world against bugs yeah because the only good bug it's a dead bug
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it's a dead bug well i mean and when you i mean i sort of feel like that's what we're fighting these
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days you know when you look at this memetic virus that removes people's ability to reason and turns them
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into like foaming at the mouse cultural imperialists who want to eradicate every culture that differs
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from theirs on earth you know well what can i call them other than like bug men right and this is
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something we increasingly see right like i think that when they it is not the conservatives who first
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drew the line between the modern progressives and the bug hive mind it is progressives who drew this
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connection first they said well the bugs were the victims you know it's a false flag attack it's like
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well we know it's not a false flag attack because it hit the brigh the brigham young the the or what
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was the ship called can't remember the big the big ship roger young roger young i think it was called
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when they were in deep space so quite far from earth so we know that the asteroid didn't come from
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anywhere close to earth because they'll be like oh well the timing doesn't make sense but we know it
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didn't come from anywhere close to earth so it couldn't have been a false flag attack
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and then they're like okay well you know we encroached on bug territory and it's like well
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not really the event that started the war was the mormon separatists who settled within bug
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territory explicitly as mentioned on the news illegally they broke the laws and went off and did
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something that they were not allowed to do and the bugs blamed all humans for what the
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mormons had done yeah because they just thought it was one single unified invasive species that was
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out for them well yeah in the same way that progressives can't understand why if we in the
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conservative movement or in the prenatalist movement you know we'll have some people in the prenatalist
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movement who are like anti-gay or anti-whatever right like this have some racist sympathies or something
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like that and then they're like well that proves that you all are this thing and it's like no it what that
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makes no sense but it's because they think like a bug they think like the hive mind right well and
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again and there's this this chosen inability to parse out and separate actions and choices and and
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policies that these are not connected necessarily yeah no no i mean i i completely agree and i've just
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been very like recently disappointed in how reactionary the urban monoculture i mean of course
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it has to be but to even the concept of nationalism like i am pro america and i am constantly pro america
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throughout our episodes and we used to live in a world where that wasn't a weird thing to say to be a
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german and say i'm pro german and proud of being german you know or to be english like the english have
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so much to be proud of the english were as a country they literally as a government paid like
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in the early days not just to stop slavery but to stop other countries slave ships they had fleets
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that were dedicated to stopping other countries doing slavery
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yeah and yet yeah i think there's a lot of shame is wild no one did something like that we talk about
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the case of that african nation where they had that movie made about them like the woman queen or
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whatever and we were like actually they were super duper slavers and they made their money in slavery
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to understand how like the uk versus africa in terms of the amount of national pride you might
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ascribe to a country the woman who they like idolized as this great woman king in africa
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the uk had to blockade her ports to get her to stop selling slaves i didn't know that the uk
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victimized her of course yes they economically disempowered this way economically disempowered
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this african woman leader girl boss queen because she was a slaver i don't know this is something we
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repeatedly see there's something to be proud of for most countries if you go and look at your history
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you're going to find well and if you don't deeply ethically disagree with your country you should
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probably leave it like you should tax revenue you know if you feel like they're the baddies
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you really shouldn't be there i mean one because manada will take you yeah well a lot of countries
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will take you i think new zealand has pretty affordable purchasable visa requirement like it's it's not
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there are plenty of places yes and getting querubian residency for example not that hard yeah pretty
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pretty straightforward their government infrastructure is like it's fairly efficient so
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yeah i think that's the other thing is if you're not nationalistic why are you there and i can get
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you know a lot of people don't have money to just get up and move or they have family and people they
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have to take care of and there are plenty of reasons why that's not really a practical answer and
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what what do you gain from but hurting about it you know try to work toward getting out i guess
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yeah well and this is actually an interesting point where you know people always see it as a win for the
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political party's side when one of their states wants to like leave the union when in reality it would
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be a win for the opposite side so for example if california like broke off from the united states
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um conservatives would have a lock on national elections basically forever going oh gosh yeah
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if texas left the united states democrats would have a lock on national elections basically forever going
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forwards good point i think we need to have a republican movement for california statehood
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you guys do you yeah i mean california i don't i'm pretty sure they're a net
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positive in terms of federal tax revenue that we we get more from them being in the united states than
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they get so we would take a hit without them but considering that you know they have a lot of
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congressional and senatorial seats and that a lot of their policies we would argue are financially
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unsustainable and more likely to accelerate our progress to a demographic collapse and therefore
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civilizational collapse it's a a loss worth cutting and i think that the revenue that they generate right
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now would be very easy to bring back into the country if you cut them off yeah so if you for example
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cut off california into its own country it would very be quickly become incredibly socialist and
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incredibly costly to run companies in california the thing is it already like it's very it already
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is and they're losing people at a huge rate like their rate of retention is incredible though and we
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even anecdotally know plenty of people who feel like i can't quit you you know they keep ending up
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back in california somehow oh no i've seen the opposite you know i've talked to those leaders in like
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the effective altruist movement and stuff like that and they were like it's really interesting
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san francisco because they're like i had a list of like everyone for like parties and stuff in san
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francisco who's like interesting and like an out-of-the-box thinker in post-covid that list
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has is is dropped to like a fifth of what it was pre-covid like there are not that many interesting
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people here anymore most of them have left huh that's very interesting i mean because we know other
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people who are like yeah i'd love to leave but all my friends are here i don't know the only place
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i've seen that is when they have like a very tight network of like nearby houses or like a multi-hacker
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house or like a i i haven't seen that in in scenarios where people have for example like families that
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aren't integrated with other families yeah yeah i guess and or they're just spending a sabbatical and
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in one particular short-term place like light haven so i guess
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yeah that makes sense i mean what what would be your ideal approach toward nationalism going forward
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is just because i think where nationalism goes too far is when it becomes blind um like i probably
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where nationalism went wrong in germany in world war ii was just blind trust in the government and like
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like they can't do wrong they couldn't possibly be doing what these rumors suggest in you know
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no i'm sure they know what they're doing what the country was doing i think that that's like
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historical revisionism to say that that maybe the average person didn't but a lot of the like
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strongest nationalists did and i don't think that that is the the where national i don't think
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that had anything to do with nationalism that had to do with anti-semitism and homophobia
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and stuff like that which are not intrinsic to nationalism like you can be a nationalist without
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being against you know diversity was in your country like that that has nothing to do with
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nationalism or not nationalism that's like a completely separate set of of problems so you
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don't think that nationalism if improperly addressed see i what i think is ideal is nationalism that
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involves leaning into civic involvement and understanding what it is that makes your country
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great and doing your part it is as a citizen to participate in protecting those good things and
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fighting corruption fighting bloat fighting things that threaten those values and what i think
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nationalism runs the risk of becoming is just team sports standing culture where it's like no my country
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can't do wrong meanwhile a bunch of corrupt bureaucrats hiding behind that cloud of trust and i disagree
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i think a lot of countries have an extreme amount of nationalism and literally zero trust in their
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government a great example of this would be like literally any of the the balkans present a good
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example of strong nationalism and and complete hatred or distrust of their government these are
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countries like her gozia bulgaria croatia kosovo montenegro i don't i don't know if that's productive
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either because if you love your country but you think your government's totally corrupt and
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non-functional you're not going to try to lean into it and get civically involved and make it better
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you're gonna be like ah it's just a hate it but yeah i mean i think there there are forms of
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nationalism that do not actively improve things but i think that on the whole you cannot have a
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healthy country without a great degree of nationalism yeah that is not something that's
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just maintained at the family level at the level of local celebrations and festivals at the level of
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your school system at the level of like at every you know what nationalism is analogous to body
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positivity there are toxic versions of it like haze where it's like no sweetie you should be worried
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this is not a good whatever you're doing you must always love your body right yeah yeah whereas but
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then like the you know the opposite of it you know if you're if you are if you have body dysmorphia
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you hate yourself you're doing you're practicing all these really unhealthy behaviors however they may
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manifest you don't have confidence so you don't come across as likable you're not happy like that's
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really toxic but it is equally toxic to just be like no no matter what i'm gorgeous i'm beautiful
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i'm handsome i'm whatever so maybe that's kind of the way to look at it it's it is a balanced thing
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but you really the the default isn't like well i'm neither nationalist nor not i'm neither body
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positive nor not like you should be proud of how you look and you should have things about you that you
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love and you should take good care of your body just like you should be proud of your country and
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and love certain things about your country and take care of your country right and that's kind of
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the the way it should be that the the the healthy balance is not indifference
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at least if you want to be vitalistic and and healthy i mean i agree i think that that's it it's it's it's to
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love your country and what it can be in the future you know for its historic improvement but i think that a
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big part of nationalism is about not sweeping under the rug as the current education system does you
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know the way that they used to say in the 90s that like education system like swept under the rug all
00:27:14.940
the u.s or uk's or whatever atrocities now the education system does the exact opposite it sweeps
00:27:20.700
under the rug all the reasons you should have pride in being an american or pride in being british or pride in
00:27:26.420
being german like the the entire system is structured to hide this from the student in a way that is
00:27:33.320
dishonest yeah yeah yeah it is interesting how so much of my at least public school education was
00:27:41.260
and here's how we screwed over native americans and here's how we screwed over slaves and here's how
00:27:46.320
we screwed over immigrants and here's how we ruined the environment their education system was
00:27:52.500
in both english and history so not in like one subject it was a cycle of native americans
00:28:00.100
then like like how native americans got screwed over not like native american culture it didn't care
00:28:04.820
about native american culture it was how did native americans get screwed over it was slavery it was
00:28:10.480
jim crow laws then back to native americans they like basically never got to the vietnam war they never
00:28:17.080
got to like even stuff that may not make us look good like they just were clearly like these are the only
00:28:22.240
three parts of american history that matter and we will take two hours of your day every day in childhood
00:28:27.980
to constantly remind you of them yeah um anti-nationalist propaganda paid for by the government
00:28:36.400
yeah that was created by this memetic disease and and what's worse is they the the left seems to have
00:28:46.220
learned nothing by that except definitionally the left can't be wrong like when i point out like
00:28:51.100
what do you not see that your policies hurt the most vulnerable populations do you not see that in
00:28:56.200
democrat controlled districts blacks actually earn significantly less than whites when compared to
00:29:00.880
republican controlled districts do you not care they're like no i'm the good guy because i'm the
00:29:05.760
leftist and it's like well then why do all of your policies when i point out that native americans are
00:29:10.120
going to go extinct in the near future they have a below one with tfr and i'm like you claim to care
00:29:16.100
about this group like why isn't this a problem to you and they're like well i'm the good guy because
00:29:21.480
i'm the leftist and it's like that's not an answer like they they define themselves as the heroes
00:29:31.660
but yeah i mean i'm not gonna it's important not to sugarcoat things either things go wrong you you
00:29:38.600
learn from it and i think that's that's important and that that comes from a place of pride you know
00:29:42.380
when people for if we're going back to body positivity and they're like wow yeah i thought
00:29:46.620
you know saturated fat was poisoned for a while turns out i was wrong now i've switched to a
00:29:50.820
different diet and i i know not to do that again like i've learned from that nutritional fad and i think
00:29:57.120
similarly we can still admit that there were some policies that at first were thought to be good and
00:30:03.740
turns out that they didn't produce good results and therefore we learn from them because we are
00:30:07.720
proud of who we are and we are great and therefore we are smart and we learn as we go forward so
00:30:14.340
again like we're i don't think we're arguing for completely forgetting all of our little oopsies
00:30:20.380
but yeah certainly not i think yeah the interesting thing is in all of that education about here are the
00:30:29.960
horrible things we did to absolutely everyone there was no like and so here's what we should do going
00:30:36.380
forward you know here no the here's what we should do going forward is we should be more progressive
00:30:41.960
going forward that was always to hear what we should do no no it wasn't even that though that
00:30:47.300
we never got to that at least in my schools it was just by the way hate yourself hate your country
00:30:51.560
like feel bad oh in my school it was definitely you should be more progressive going interesting
00:30:55.940
oh and we didn't get that we didn't get there well you were in maybe that's what you get from an
00:31:01.120
elite private school education as they actually follow through a little better in public school
00:31:06.560
the money didn't go that far i guess who knows i love you simone um what are we doing for dinner
00:31:12.040
tonight tonight we're going to do more of the basil um burmese chicken oh that was so good
00:31:21.780
mm-hmm um pineapple or we don't that it was it already came with pineapple so good the pineapple's
00:31:29.720
already in it so but i am going to add some more of the peppers you really know how to do your job
00:31:35.800
drink it with milk add about half as much as you did last time okay because that was really good
00:31:42.480
the thai red peppers that caused me tummy problems yeah they hurt you but they hurt so good
00:31:51.560
bears well we better be very careful then right octavian