Based Camp - Bad Habits： Making a Tier List for Religious Clothing

00:00:00.000 hello everyone i am excited to be here with you today today we are going to be discussing various

00:00:06.480 types of religious clothing and various rules around religious clothing and we are going to

00:00:12.900 be ranking them from a utility and fashion and when i say utility i don't just mean in their daily

00:00:19.980 you know whatever but in terms of how they frame people of that religion to outsiders

00:00:23.680 how they keep people in religions how they push people out of religions and discuss more our own

00:00:29.680 sort of beliefs around you know religious fashion and stuff like that and what i think you know

00:00:34.020 makes sense to mandate not mandate and that's where we got the title for the episode bad habits

00:00:38.600 because i wanted to make a habit joke which is a name for one of the catholic necessary yeah and

00:00:44.240 that's clothing but i think more importantly when people look at religious clothing they often think

00:00:49.900 that's weird or that doesn't look good or whatever and and we're not judging this i mean we may have

00:00:55.320 comments about the aesthetics but the most important thing about religious clothing is its function and

00:01:00.380 sometimes the function is literally logistical it's protective it's practical it's durable

00:01:04.900 but often it it has a much more important framing and symbolic function and so we want to look at that

00:01:12.240 and how see how effective it is or not malcolm and i are going to have plenty of disagreement i'm sure

00:01:16.760 that's an easy one to start with because you know you you used to live with mormons you know a lot

00:01:21.260 about them right mormons are most famous for their garments these are underwear they're church

00:01:27.400 sanctioned they had have special like patterns on them that are important but the most important

00:01:33.100 thing is that they are basically shorts and shirts that sort of require you to wear modest clothing

00:01:40.060 because if you don't they will show so i'll word this a bit differently because i think that you're

00:01:44.460 sort of beating around the bush they are like an undershirt and underpants they have special symbols

00:01:49.760 on them and lines on them that represent specific religious things to mormons you have to wear them

00:01:56.600 all the time except when you are swimming or exercising which creates a an interesting

00:02:03.500 positive externality for the mormon community because everyone especially women who want to dress more

00:02:11.220 essentially for mainstream society have a sort of a very strong reason outside of just the exercise

00:02:18.200 itself to exercise regularly because it's an excuse to not wear your garments um you know i would note

00:02:24.480 that this actually makes garments fairly loosey-goosey from the perspective of most religious wear

00:02:31.140 so if you contrast garments with something like a care pan you'd be the knife that sikhs have to carry

00:02:37.880 sikhs are not allowed to even take it off in the shower you know no way all the time all the time

00:02:44.880 and these are very durable knives like if you want to get a good knife you should get that kind of knife

00:02:48.720 because you can shower with it you can wear it everywhere so yeah so the your pants yeah so so the

00:02:54.740 mormons on the other hand you know they they're actually pretty because people always compare

00:03:00.520 their religious fashion with the urban monoculture wear whatever you want whenever you want

00:03:06.340 yeah fashion instead of with other religious fashion when they're trying to decide how strict

00:03:11.040 it is one of the more annoying things about garments is the ways that you have to dispose of

00:03:15.400 them you i believe used to need to send them to like a garment disposal facility because they're

00:03:21.160 considered sacred in a way right like you can't just yeah you only wear and you you don't wear them

00:03:25.220 as a child you wear them after you are endowed like sort of after you go through a very special

00:03:30.160 secret initiation ceremony with the church as a young adult that is a major act of commitment

00:03:35.760 so i was just going to say because i hadn't finished my last point the way that you dispose

00:03:41.900 of garments has changed recently where now it is actually much easier to dispose of them and you can

00:03:47.080 cut them apart in a certain way and there's only certain parts of it that need to be disposed

00:03:50.160 super carefully and the rest can be burned but anyway you were saying simone uh you you only wear

00:03:55.840 garments after you get endowed which is a sort of very very secret important commitment ceremony that

00:04:01.580 young adults go through you have to be endowed for example to enter the temple and attend a wedding

00:04:06.740 ceremony including your own so it's it is related to ceremonies and i like personally i think garments

00:04:14.840 are awesome because a big part of the mormon church is going out and trying to convert people

00:04:20.440 and it's hard to i think build rapport with people and build a lot of commonality with outsiders if

00:04:28.380 you're dressed super strange but garments are a way for you to be approachable and seem normal

00:04:35.360 while still every day reminding yourself that you're very committed to your religion because

00:04:39.900 wearing special underwear does remind you that is worth elevating what you just said which is a

00:04:44.780 unique aspect of mormon religious clothing is that it is something that has a few unique functions when

00:04:52.080 contrasted with other religious clothing it allows mormons to quickly identify other mormons but people

00:04:57.740 who aren't mormons or aren't very familiar with mormons may not notice that the person is wearing

00:05:02.560 religious clothing yeah that's a really interesting is you you typically can tell someone is wearing

00:05:07.980 garments or likely wearing garments if you know what to look for which is cool it's like a secret

00:05:13.960 handshake but it also means that you're not as othered from mainstream society as you would be

00:05:20.740 within other religious communities which you would see as a strict downside yeah i'd see that as a

00:05:25.480 downside because it causes you to look less like i think there are ways that you can build religious

00:05:32.060 codes that allow you to interact with mainstream society but still other yourself a great example would

00:05:37.400 be the conservative jew the the yarmulke thing that conservative jews wear where they can wear a suit

00:05:42.080 but you still immediately know they're jewish and they know when they're walking into a room and

00:05:46.620 everyone else knows they're jewish so they're not breaking mainstream societal dress codes but they do

00:05:51.500 look different whereas with mormons it's much more covert which it has some upsides and downsides

00:05:59.300 you're right about that now i i'd ask you what are your thoughts on the women's dress in the more

00:06:04.440 extreme mormon movement what's it yeah so if you think of flds clothing we're talking those weird

00:06:11.320 pastel dresses with somewhat puffy sleeves that go like very long sleeves and they're just extremely

00:06:17.480 unflattering dresses i personally hate them i think they look terrible they certainly don't attract me to

00:06:23.800 the mormon church at all no i i agree and i do not think they look pious either they um this is the

00:06:31.160 problem if you can trust them we'll go over the the bruderhof in a second right or the amish which

00:06:36.180 have somewhat similar outfits with what the women in those communities wear when i look at women in

00:06:40.220 those communities it gives me this sense of piousness but when i look at women in this style

00:06:46.500 of dress that we're gonna have on screen here the the extremist mormons wear to me it just looks

00:06:52.180 like a frumpy status symbol sort of thing or well and they also don't look practical in terms of you

00:06:57.900 know a woman who should be looking after quite a few children right they they look like they

00:07:01.320 might be kind of difficult to move around in that they're more fabric to clean it just doesn't nothing

00:07:07.520 there makes sense to me yeah um uh and i and i think that uh they would they might drive people

00:07:14.600 away from the mormon church um more than other things because they are othering in a way that so this

00:07:22.440 is an important thing about religious clothing are they othering in a way that sort of calls you out

00:07:26.920 as above other people or are they othering in a way that calls you out as below other people yeah

00:07:33.100 and i feel like this outfit seems to be othering in a way that stations these people as looking

00:07:39.020 below other people in a way whereas an example of othering in a way that makes you look above other

00:07:44.860 people catholics are great with this in terms of their religious wear it's very much like you see

00:07:50.120 especially like a catholic you know priest or somebody and you know some of the the other things that

00:07:55.280 they have like the cinchures and the albs and it looks very like okay this is somebody who's got

00:08:01.460 some sort of like a special status yeah well and there's i think there's a reason why so many sci-fi

00:08:07.540 costumes appear to be inspired by catholic clothing it is distinct it is other it is dune you know

00:08:15.740 yeah yeah well and some of the righty jewish groups i think do a pretty good job with this

00:08:20.480 agreed yes but we'll get to those yeah we'll get to those in a second all right so what is your final

00:08:25.720 take on mormon clothing before we go to the next one if i was going to grade them an a b c d f i would

00:08:31.880 put them in a solid b minus pretty good but not exceptional yeah i would say one theological thing

00:08:40.120 i like about their clothing is that they don't do a lot of crosses i've always found crosses to be

00:08:44.860 rather ghoulish i mean it's it's it's like literally a torture device that you know killed

00:08:52.580 the son of god right you know his worst moment yeah if i mean like if if i had a life that people

00:08:58.300 were remembering would i want them to remember me by the worst day of my life or maybe something

00:09:06.220 else maybe that time i healed a blind kid i don't know why couldn't it be anything else so let's now go

00:09:13.660 to the amish tell me what you think of the amish yeah i love amish clothing i think that it is

00:09:18.380 tasteful i think that it is practical it is clearly clothing that is made for work it's also very

00:09:23.080 distinctive i like women's prayer bonnets i think that of the the world of bonnets they're tasteful

00:09:31.500 pretty structured they're not practical from a sun protection standpoint but i guess i'm not going

00:09:36.340 to complain too much about that because the straw men that the wear the men sorry the straw hats that

00:09:41.160 the men wear are very fetching and better for sun protection and probably women are doing more

00:09:45.400 indoor work anyway so i am a fan i love it i think that they use a lot of natural fibers a huge fan of

00:09:51.500 natural fibers and i i know these clothes can take a beating i we see them as we drive through

00:09:58.340 lancaster we see all the set up in our area there's lots of amish so they set up around where we are and

00:10:03.560 you can see the clothes drying in the wind on large clothes lines and they're just great i think they

00:10:09.700 are great in a number of perspectives i think that so one we've got to talk about like the actual

00:10:15.460 prohibitions here they're they can't use things like buttons they can't use things like that to

00:10:20.640 them was a modern technology there's no buttons oh yeah buttons are considered too high tech for them

00:10:26.100 like garish oh how do they fasten their fastener types that were common pre-buttons and i mean keep

00:10:34.360 in mind buttons are a fairly new technology you know we just forget about this right you know but

00:10:39.240 obviously they're not going to use zippers they're not going to use velcro they're not going to use

00:10:42.520 but so they have a lot of strict rules around these specific types of technology that they can engage

00:10:49.980 whiz within their clothing um which may make their clothing like unusually you know difficult in some

00:10:57.320 ways but the end effect when you see an amish individual very interestingly is one especially

00:11:06.500 amish women come across as very approachable more approachable than other religious traditions i've seen

00:11:11.660 and amish men do as well actually i don't feel that way i feel uniquely nervous about approaching them

00:11:17.500 i don't think i've ever walked up to and chatted with an amish person oh i always feel like it would

00:11:22.880 be disrespectful somehow their outfits to me engender a sense of piousness and a sense of humility

00:11:31.360 without belittling them or making them look lesser than other people they certainly don't look lesser

00:11:37.920 they look very competent and put together in their clothing but when i see people dress that

00:11:43.140 differently from society even when they're mixing with society and we typically see

00:11:46.940 amish people when we are at like in a place where we can interact with them at farmers markets or

00:11:53.200 going to one of their shops i get this feeling like we dress different differently and we look

00:11:58.580 differently because we don't want to mix and interact with you we are trying to be separate

00:12:04.480 from your society i don't want to talk with you you are corrupted in a way i mean it's a good thing but

00:12:10.800 it's not approachable i don't know where you're getting approachable from this it doesn't feel at all

00:12:16.200 approachable very approachable and i feel like all religious othering clothing is kind of meant to

00:12:21.640 make people less approachable too sorry i should be clear i mean transactionally approachable so the

00:12:26.940 people who don't live around the amish don't realize most of the time you're interacting with

00:12:30.860 amish it's because you're doing business with them um so they're very common the women will run

00:12:35.020 fruit stalls they'll run stuff like that thanks good amazing and i guess part of to me what makes

00:12:41.120 it feel approachable is i know they're never going to try to small talk me they're never going to try

00:12:45.240 to like sell me up on their products that's true never gonna hustle me or try and pressure okay so

00:12:50.020 they come across as trustworthy not approachable well for me it's not just trustworthy it's that i

00:12:56.280 know that they have no interest in talking my ear off about something i guess for me typically

00:13:00.520 approachable someone is up for small talk yeah okay so i guess i mean you're terrible with word choice

00:13:06.700 you drive me nuts with word choice because that's that's where i see them i see them at stalls and i'm

00:13:11.800 always i would always go to an amish stall over another stall for sure well and you feel the same

00:13:16.380 way then so clearly it's achieving that end but it's going to prevent them i mean in terms of

00:13:20.780 interaction with mainstream society this is where it really struggles if you dressed this differently

00:13:25.280 you could not easily integrate with companies or move up in the workplace or i disagree because i think

00:13:30.960 muslim dress is also pretty extreme at times and it does not stop people at all okay okay i'll buy that

00:13:37.580 so i prefer the and i think the othering nature of it doesn't look ridiculous to me

00:13:43.180 i'd also note i think it looks very tasteful and good yeah when i say ridiculous if people are

00:13:49.800 wondering what i'm talking about here when we get to some of the haradi jewish stuff some of their

00:13:53.540 outfits especially the male ones are just like are they like peacocking like is this like religious

00:13:58.940 peacocking here but where it's just like a bit much it's a bit much for everyday wear all right so i want

00:14:05.960 to talk about a few of the other groups here that are related to the amish have you looked at hutterite

00:14:11.780 clothing before simone this is another anabaptist group or latin american mennonite clothing latin

00:14:17.480 american mennonite so latin american mennonites will wear very bright colors so they otherwise wear this

00:14:25.480 very traditional yeah you're going to need to be doing a lot of googling on this episode to see what

00:14:30.080 these look like oh they're so cute oh my gosh latin american mennonites are great they're not

00:14:35.960 always they're not always colorful but they're much more likely to be colorful because they don't have

00:14:40.160 prohibitions against colors that some of the amish do in our area and then the hutterites use a lot

00:14:44.680 of patterns if you look up the hutterites hutterite clothing one thing i'm noticing among amish

00:14:50.220 hutterites mennonites is a lot of family matching which i really like it really makes them seem united

00:14:56.960 and together yeah hutterites i don't like as much because i think that it's too normal looking

00:15:05.760 yeah and more i don't this sounds bad but it more just looks like

00:15:09.660 people trying to be trad but they have bad taste exactly that's exactly what hutterite clothing looks

00:15:17.120 like so hutterite i put it like the bottom tier of amish clothing and then i put the the colorful

00:15:22.660 mennonites in the amish in the same category because i think here's getting back to function

00:15:28.400 and not just why things look good one of the reasons why i'm not big on hutterite clothing is

00:15:32.500 there are a lot of very different patterns and i think one of the big reasons why this works why

00:15:38.660 dressing in this more traditional way works is it keeps you with very simple fabrics and very simple

00:15:45.060 patterns and it gets you focused on your devotion and not fashion and it's clear to me that women

00:15:51.740 in choosing all these really weird bright patterns especially you know not just solid colors is

00:15:57.860 they're going for signaling they're showing that they're different they're getting obsessed with

00:16:02.380 clothes they have a varied wardrobe and the more your time goes mentally to picking out different

00:16:08.500 colors in your wardrobe or making a new dress and getting a new pattern i think the less your time

00:16:14.760 goes to what matters to you most it goes back to that whole president obama deciding to only wear

00:16:19.560 blue suits thing i really agree with that i really agree with that i think any outfit that allows for

00:16:24.040 too much variation is a real negative thing in religious dress yeah so worse is is all right

00:16:30.640 sorry guys love you all right so now to the next group that i don't think you know much about which

00:16:35.340 is the bruderhof yeah so i looked at the a tier would you put amish at a tier for a tier 100 yeah a tier

00:16:43.740 amish love absolutely fantastic mennonites i would put it a minus i think mennonites are

00:16:50.340 it well you know no no no and i would put mennonites at a as well because in some cases mennonites

00:16:56.380 the way that they vary and or are more flexible from pure amish clothing is more out of a choice for

00:17:03.500 practicality like sometimes amish clothing is so true to the original amish choice that it is impractical

00:17:10.960 and it is actually distracting to try to go all the way to fit that rule when really i feel like

00:17:17.220 from a consequential standpoint in terms of really focusing on the the spirit of the rule yeah mennonites

00:17:22.760 have it more nailed so both amish and mennonites get an a when it comes to the hatterites i would put

00:17:28.300 c or d c c minus d yeah i think d actually just because i think it's so ugly looking yeah actually

00:17:35.160 yeah d d yeah so next well it just looks undisciplined when contrasted with the other

00:17:41.660 ones yeah so bruderhof is so people who don't know who the bruderhof is the bruderhof are another

00:17:48.500 anabaptist group so they're related to if you don't know who the anabaptists are that's the community

00:17:53.000 that makes up the amish the mennonites the hutterites and the bruderhof but the bruderhof are

00:17:58.600 not anti-technology like the other ones are they are however communist um and they live in communist

00:18:06.260 communes they don't believe in like full communism for everyone they just believe in that we are

00:18:10.340 commanded to live you know as one with our neighbors so sometimes they'll have quite large communes

00:18:15.800 other times a commune will just be a couple families living in the same house in like a major city

00:18:20.360 but to be a bruderhof you have to live in what's called a bruderhof which is one of these communes

00:18:25.640 now that means that you get your clothing for free but it also means that everyone's wearing

00:18:31.560 the same clothing but not really because they have lots of different color patterns and the clothing

00:18:36.800 just looks awful it looks like you went to the goodwill and you got the worst looking dresses

00:18:45.120 and shirts and pants possible that didn't look mainstream you know that didn't have like a nike

00:18:49.600 logo on it or something and then you wore that and i do not like it to be inexpensive

00:18:55.440 to produce and very very durable um and so it's not the only religious mandate they have in terms

00:19:02.060 of their clothing is that women have to cover their heads which a lot of the judeo it looks like women

00:19:07.080 also need to dress modestly because we're seeing very long skirts oh yeah long skirts well yeah they

00:19:12.140 they do not sexualize women at all and men this is one of those communities where we talked about in

00:19:16.080 our other video of do men need to be more oppressed this is one of those communities where men sort of

00:19:19.960 look like quote-unquote normal western dress typically they are almost always wearing jeans

00:19:25.700 and a button-down shirt whereas women will be wearing very long skirts and head coverings which

00:19:31.760 can make them look a little well amishy sort of and so your take on this you actually don't like this

00:19:37.160 one is not a fan at all you're not like i would put it at a d it doesn't say anything to me i think

00:19:44.860 another thing about religious wear is ideally there's something kind of aspirational about it

00:19:50.880 we can get more into this with catholicism for example yeah we'll go to catholics but this does

00:19:56.700 there's nothing about this like when i look at the amish i think you you guys look amazing your family

00:20:03.220 looks beautiful you look really put together even mormons like sort of normatively they try to dress

00:20:08.760 neater and nicer than the average american you know they they seem more aspirational

00:20:13.280 yeah these guys i'm just like man you don't look good it's it's at flds level in fact if i had to

00:20:20.720 choose i would choose flds clothing oh where would you mark flds by the way put it at a d as well

00:20:27.320 c minus c minus it is very distinctive um yeah you could own it you know like you got the problem

00:20:36.280 it's not as distinctive yeah it's it's it's just it's just unfortunate looking it would make me

00:20:43.300 you don't want to wake up every day and feel frumpy and kind of crappy it's one thing to be here's the

00:20:50.160 thing like so nuns for example like catholic nuns they they are being you know they're covering up huge

00:20:56.380 portions of their body women in in burkas cover huge portions of their bodies but they can still feel

00:21:02.420 absolutely fabulous i don't think there's any way that you could feel fabulous wearing clothing like

00:21:08.420 this and i don't mean fabulous like look at me materialism i mean like i am uh a tool of god to

00:21:14.980 do good in this world kind of fabulous empowered empowered feel like an empowered like weapon of god

00:21:21.300 yeah clothing should make you feel empowered it should be the armor and the tool that enables you

00:21:26.360 to be what you need to be catholics now because i agree that catholics absolutely do this with

00:21:31.640 their clothing and i mean so i think that the biggest negative that we'll get into is catholic

00:21:36.080 clothing is when i look at it it immediately to me looks haughty and very like high society and very

00:21:44.060 sci-fi we are the elite with i don't think that this is as much a problem for catholics as it would be

00:21:50.980 for another denomination because they already kind of own all of those stereotypes within the religion

00:21:56.780 like they're not signaling something dishonestly about the religion it is kind of a haughty religion

00:22:01.760 yeah it's about hierarchy there's a very large organization and being higher in that organization

00:22:09.120 both needs to be very heavily signaled and also reflects a lot of prestige so yes you need to signal

00:22:15.020 that yeah is the people who find the catholic closing desirable are also the type of people

00:22:20.640 who when they engage with the theology of catholicism and the hierarchy of catholicism

00:22:24.780 are going to be more likely to convert so it serves its purpose incredibly well even if to me it

00:22:32.600 personally comes off as a bit of a turnoff very similar to the amish i think the amish closing did

00:22:36.880 a very good job of signaling what the amish are all about right this humility this lack of technology

00:22:42.180 everything like that now if we want to talk about just some some stuff here you've got like your

00:22:46.980 albs which can be worn by laymen and you've got the down which signal like holiness with this

00:22:52.480 cinctures well i mean most classic is the is the cassock with the white collar oh i love that i always

00:22:59.980 wish it can look very badass oh it does it does yeah it's very authoritarian it's simple it's classy

00:23:06.480 yeah i think it's great i think it's powerful i love it as as a something that is it is approachable

00:23:14.260 like it doesn't look scary like some some catholic religious wear looks scary like well back off like

00:23:20.640 stay away from this person stuff is like too much for me yeah like when i look at the bishop stuff like

00:23:25.880 it it kind of actually looks like they might be going to a satanic ritual sometimes with all the red

00:23:30.680 and all the you know it does it does get a little satanic but i think if you've grown up with a

00:23:35.340 religion it can be hard to see the way something might come across to an outsider so if you grew up

00:23:41.020 with the catholic tradition i would ask you to take a step back try not to draw from your own memories

00:23:46.600 and associations with an image like this and then as somebody who had never seen a scene like this

00:23:51.940 before try to guess in a movie if you saw this would you assume that this was supposed to be a

00:23:58.780 christian ritual or a satanic ritual and keep in mind the cues you have to go off of everyone's

00:24:05.220 wearing red they're wearing golden ropes around their neck that look like well it looks like a

00:24:13.680 hangman's rope around all of their necks like their sacrifices and the room is filled with gold and

00:24:21.580 jewels and other fancy things like marble but when you go to the level of the priest i think that is

00:24:28.340 maybe the the best looking of all religious outfits i have seen in the world by a margin

00:24:34.680 and then it gets even cooler if you're putting one of those characters in a movie and you put like

00:24:39.540 the typical catholic priest and you give them like a shotgun or something for fighting vampires

00:24:43.900 yeah you know a crucifix in one hand and you know a baseball but all of a sudden they just come off as

00:24:50.520 ultra ultra ultra badass just unironically in the coolest way very badass yeah yeah i also really like

00:24:58.480 if we're talking about nuns and you know women's religious wear if they are like a full full-time

00:25:04.840 careerist church person i like habits and i like a lot of the different orders habits and these are

00:25:11.940 the veils that nuns wear so there there are very cloistered nuns nuns who do not interact with the world

00:25:18.380 like a family friend of ours became a carmelite nun this is a very cloistered order and i only ever

00:25:25.620 spoke with her interacted with her through a grate like and and if we sent her like a christmas card

00:25:32.700 or a letter she would have to send it back to us she couldn't keep it that's how cloistered there and

00:25:37.040 they had like the full out very you know elaborate beautiful heavy black habit but then you sometimes

00:25:42.920 seen i'm sure nuns on the street like wearing more light blue habits and just kind of out and easier to

00:25:47.760 wear dresses and stuff and i like those too i think they all look good they they also look like they

00:25:52.760 stay on very snugly they don't look like they fall off all the time they are protective of the sun

00:25:58.860 they they they stay on well and they're very distinctive i i think it's a great religious

00:26:05.040 garment no i absolutely agree on that but also the related layperson version of that you know we were

00:26:12.060 reading an article recently about the in the free press yeah and one of the the girls was like i

00:26:18.660 saw people wearing veils and she's like how do i qualify for this like what's yeah that basically

00:26:23.780 there's this new trend of of women especially young women starting to wear veils to catholic mass

00:26:30.720 just lace veils as it sort of was traditional among some churchgoers in the past and now more young

00:26:37.080 women are doing it as a often first they're doing it honestly because they see some catholic influencer

00:26:43.480 do it on instagram and they they see it and it looks like a sign of prestige and i know exactly

00:26:49.420 that feeling when you see someone wearing something in a context and think like how do i qualify to get

00:26:55.020 that you know like seeing a girl scout with a certain badge and being like how do i get that like

00:26:58.700 what do i have to do to get the sash keep in mind within casalism it makes extra sense to think

00:27:03.480 that because a lot of the catholic is earned are earned so if a woman see the woman and of course

00:27:08.140 they're gonna say oh what what status does she have that i don't have yet um and that's something

00:27:12.740 relativism does very well is all the levels that you can earn yeah it's very gamified and i love it too

00:27:19.760 but yeah now more and more young ladies are wearing these lace veils to church and often first it starts

00:27:25.720 out as a an interest in status or an interest in the fashion they just look pretty and then it starts

00:27:34.280 to become an act of devotion is as they put on that garment as they prepare themselves for mass

00:27:39.440 through wearing that special distinctive clothing that isn't just a nice dress or whatever it's actually

00:27:44.760 a you know sort of religious specific garment that makes them feel more devoted i think that happens a

00:27:50.040 lot also with the various types of veiling that muslim women wear is it reminds them of their

00:27:57.880 devotion and i think that's a really important part of the function of religious garments is that you may

00:28:03.520 ideally you start wearing it because you want to and maybe it's for the wrong reasons like because it

00:28:09.980 looks cool but then it makes you think and lean in think about and lean into your religion and become

00:28:16.380 more devoted yeah like i'm i'm from texas right and if i was wearing cowboy boots to school

00:28:21.420 everyone would think of me as a texan and i'd probably think of myself as a texan more if i

00:28:25.480 work and act more like a texan yeah react to things like a texan yeah so better that you react

00:28:30.420 to things like you you are you know very very dedicated to islam or very very dedicated to the lds

00:28:37.060 church and clothing helps that which then goes into the next category of catholic wear is mortification

00:28:42.740 wear um these days you know mostly the the religion that mostly still does this is catholics

00:28:50.060 for people who aren't familiar with this this is when they wear things that intentionally hurt them

00:28:54.300 like sackcloth which is just uncomfortable to like actively like stuff that digs into your skin

00:28:59.960 well i mean the one of the ones i've seen like even some and keep in mind this is just some catholic

00:29:04.540 orders this isn't something that like all catholics do are all devote catholics do it's people who are

00:29:09.200 devoted in some devout it's also devout so an example here would be a khalish i believe they're

00:29:15.380 called khalish this is a chain or cord or cord worn around the thigh or waist to cause mild discomfort

00:29:23.140 which everyone learned about by watching the movie the da vinci code yeah so modern versions are made of

00:29:29.380 woven horse hair or scratchy materials although they can sometimes have like spikes in them that are

00:29:34.780 to dig into you as was shown in the da vinci code right yeah well and i think that that's actually

00:29:39.800 what a lot of of people when you're wearing something like this you typically want to go

00:29:43.960 all in for the coolness factor well and it reminds me of girls cutting honestly yeah i mean it's a

00:29:50.280 similar itch about learning emotional control and self-control and mastery over your emotions and

00:29:55.580 therefore i view it as like a tier related or s tier related in terms of religious clothing

00:30:01.200 especially if it's opt-in if it was a mandatory thing oh then it'd be horrible yeah

00:30:06.340 yeah because it's an opt-in status thing you got hair shirt which is like a tier undergarment that's

00:30:12.580 meant to be uncomfortable there's something called a pentatile belt which is a leather or cloth belt

00:30:17.160 worn tightly around the waist intentionally uncomfortable shoes which is something that the uh puritans used

00:30:22.420 to do as well wait really your shoes are quite sensible they are four sizes too small i could reveal

00:30:28.560 you new ones nonsense the pain purifies my predilection for pleasure your alliteration

00:30:34.500 sounds dangerously like poetry my apologies strike me silence yeah yeah and abstaining from

00:30:42.480 comfortable clothing altogether is another thing and and so yeah i guess that's part of the sack

00:30:48.420 cloth thing is if you wear sack cloth under your clothes just itchy scratchy very uncomfortable so no

00:30:53.620 matter what you're wearing you can look respectable but beneath it's like oh yeah so here's my thing

00:30:58.140 was the larger catholic faction faction faction of clothing i think that pretty much everything they

00:31:03.880 have works really well and is nice the problem is is almost nothing is mandated and as such i cannot tell

00:31:11.100 that somebody's a catholic when i look at them and most catholics have nothing that signifies them as

00:31:17.080 uniquely catholic so despite the potentiality of catholic wear i'd have to put them in a c tier

00:31:22.560 yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah unless everyone got to dress like a priest or nun which i feel like would

00:31:28.560 change everything man because i think they're great outfits i think they're great if we had to just look

00:31:34.820 at priest and nun outfits like the traditional black cassock and traditional black habit and robes for

00:31:41.320 women a tier for me i'd say s tier s tier yeah yeah well then you can you can kind of tell

00:31:49.180 how good religious wear is by how often it shows up in anime and oh my gosh does anime love nun outfits

00:31:57.620 and priest outfits am i right i mean come on all the badass nuns well you got you got dogwood right

00:32:04.280 from trigon that's a great character anyway so now let's go to the various jewish outfits okay

00:32:12.420 and we're not going to be exhaustive here because jews have some of the biggest diversity

00:32:17.380 in religious outfits yes which i actually i don't know how i feel about it so part of me is like

00:32:24.260 it's a negative thing because you know it you means that everyone unless they're used to the various

00:32:31.040 different types of for example hariti dress they may know that you are a religious extremist of some

00:32:36.720 variety but not exactly because we are yeah a huge amount of intercommunity identity yes

00:32:45.860 yeah so we can go over the just to google some before we go further is it yemenite jewish

00:32:52.860 yemenite jewish dress and sephardic jewish dress to start okay sephardic well i guess historical

00:32:59.200 sephardic jewish clothing is pretty freaking cool but i don't know how much of that's historical dress

00:33:05.480 versus yeah i'm not seeing any modern sephardic jewish clothing here so it what is the i don't

00:33:12.360 know i i think that they don't have this uh things on modern well then that makes it d tier f tier if

00:33:19.100 there isn't like a cohesive like if google images will not show me modern people in religious dress

00:33:25.820 they they failed it's not a brand it's not a thing the the yemenite one is to me just too garish when

00:33:33.240 it's unique it is i i don't like all of the the fancies of it and it's garish well it gets you

00:33:38.640 focused on peacocking instead of your devotion right yeah no it looks like peacocking but now let's

00:33:44.040 look at the at this we got the we've got the fur round discs and we got the hats and we got the

00:33:50.140 curly cues for the men now this is i think this goes back to a different podcast conversation we had

00:33:55.720 about othering males and oppressing oppressing males by making them dress uniquely this is among

00:34:04.400 the most distinctive everyday wear for all male practitioners of a religion maybe the most right

00:34:11.560 this is of what the satmar yeah the satmar i mean i'm seeing the big fur disc and we've got the

00:34:18.800 and ger hasidim dress it is very very othering and i think specifically you know when you're

00:34:27.140 looking at something like the streise heims or whatever they're called the the big fur circular

00:34:32.660 hats those are amazing they're amazing and what i think does very good for them is that they appear

00:34:40.460 to me like they they show the culture pretty well typically when i see somebody in one of those i

00:34:46.520 imagine somebody who's like and happy and that's what the movement is known for is being very sort

00:34:53.580 of over the top in their in their celebratory nature and then the other ones where you know you you focus

00:35:03.600 more on the long poignos i believe they're called the the curly cue things on the side i mean it looks

00:35:09.780 jewish it's fine like i i'd say in terms of dress i put it in a tier it

00:35:16.280 it is very distinctive yeah it conveys what the religion is about it's it and it looks put

00:35:25.400 together like it doesn't look dirty or it doesn't look like a part it's not like actively um distasteful

00:35:32.800 uh but it also comes close to being too much yeah i'm i'm on the edge so also when we're talking

00:35:41.660 about many orthodox jewish women you have to cover your hair outside what many women do is they just

00:35:47.460 keep their hair very short and or they shave their heads and they wear wigs and if you're really devout

00:35:52.900 you will wear a veil over your wig and this just starts to feel kind of excessive to me like part of

00:35:58.840 me is like listen if you're covering your hair don't cover your hair with fake hair you know you're

00:36:04.900 still going out with hair normal people won't realize that you're wearing a wig and they will

00:36:09.820 just you're not looking modest like you're still showing your hair the point is you don't show your

00:36:14.140 hair and so i really don't like that it seems more like classic jewish rule bending instead of which i

00:36:21.760 guess is super jewish right you know it's like well so i'm not allowed to do this all right well

00:36:25.740 what's my way around it i'll just wear a wig over my hair like that's like okay here's the rules as

00:36:30.080 written now how do i get around their intent so jewish but it also like really bothers me because

00:36:35.280 we're not about rule following we're about like we're consequentialists we we mentioned this in

00:36:41.220 another episode but it's worse so people don't think that you're just being like anti-semitic in

00:36:44.600 saying this this is something that that especially the more orthodox jews do a lot like the fishing

00:36:50.060 line that they're spending like a million dollars to keep up around manhattan because it makes it all

00:36:54.520 technically one location for some hasidic jews on the uh sabbath which allows them to move objects

00:37:02.040 in between it and it's like that's so like obviously that's not the intent like when god made these laws

00:37:08.420 for you like assuming they came from god he didn't mean for you to look for like niggling ways to get

00:37:13.680 around it yeah like there's you know there's rules like you can't turn you know lights on and off

00:37:18.740 during the sabbath okay well fine so they create these lamps with like rotating shades so you just

00:37:23.740 rotate the shade around to yeah it's like no no you're still turning a light on and off this is

00:37:29.780 not so especially because we're big sticklers on the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the

00:37:35.460 law and a lot of jewish rule bending seems to be really focused on the letter of the law but i also

00:37:41.680 see that as a feature not a bug of the jewish religion i mean i see the jewish religion and i think

00:37:46.980 the snake oven story indicates the jewish religion is a religion of law and so i also don't see it

00:37:53.640 is so for my culture it seems like wrong but i think it's really appropriate for jewish culture

00:37:58.980 which is why i'm so on the fence about the wig thing because it it's it's really good like it's

00:38:05.800 a great microcosm for jewish rules but at the same time it drives me a little nuts because i'm like

00:38:10.020 not the point it seems like something our kids would do if we gave them rules you know what i mean

00:38:14.380 like they'd find some way around it i i know i i completely agree with you yeah so there it might

00:38:19.360 it might fall to b tier for me it's just too deontological in terms of the way that the rules

00:38:24.280 are laid out where you can contrast it with something like the amish where especially mennonites

00:38:29.420 yeah where with mennonites it's like okay let's go old-fashioned let's not do anything crazy but

00:38:34.680 you know let's not be so old-fashioned that it gets difficult and time consuming yeah well and also

00:38:41.320 this is the problem with jewish dress codes is they are more driven by what they are forced

00:38:47.760 to wear instead of by what they are not allowed to wear amish dress is primarily driven by bans on

00:38:55.660 specific things that are seen as too garish or over the top and as coca chanel said elegance is refusal

00:39:01.120 yeah the thing that leads to jewish dress being so unique looking like the more hasidic factions

00:39:06.320 is specific pieces of clothing or elements that they feel they have to wear like the ponies or the

00:39:13.520 hat cover the head coverings or the um various other parts where like there's some line here or here that

00:39:20.460 could be interpreted as mandating this particular fashion item and then you know it just over the

00:39:26.300 centuries more and more unique fashion items get layered on top and eventually you get you know the

00:39:31.780 religion goes on for another 10 000 years uh random other items are going to be added and added and

00:39:37.540 added until they're walking around with all the like bells and whistles and everything but here's one

00:39:41.800 more argument for in terms of the function of fashions like these the additive fashions that i do think is

00:39:46.460 important to note and especially uniquely helpful to tightly knit religious niche communities that live

00:39:53.160 close to each other and have these rules around clothing the amish and especially for example orthodox

00:39:58.920 jewish women are empowered by these clothing and dress mandates because it creates cottage industries

00:40:05.420 so there are many amish who produce amish clothing and that is their that's how they make money that's

00:40:12.680 how they survive you know it creates an economy for them that outsiders can't opt into and ruin

00:40:18.320 many orthodox women who need to make money for their families because their husbands are devoted to

00:40:23.920 religious study make money by producing and selling wigs for example i was just listening to an

00:40:30.220 interview with a former orthodox jewish wife who had seven children and many of her female friends

00:40:36.960 in the community made and sold wigs and of course only to other orthodox jewish women but i do like that

00:40:43.360 it creates economic opportunity within those communities assuming that the people are living within

00:40:48.080 commercial reach of each other okay okay so you're gonna put it at b tier next let's go to the seek

00:40:53.760 this is an interesting one for me it has like huge upsides and huge downsides yes the upside

00:41:01.620 i generally think it looks pretty good it looks baller come on it looks baller i like it

00:41:07.240 however the mandates against hair cutting or beard cutting at least create a look of lack of hygiene

00:41:14.720 frankly it depends i think it depends on the time and culture that you live in there will be times where

00:41:19.920 it makes you look like everyone else there will be times where it doesn't and i just feel like

00:41:24.700 grooming related rules are difficult in general yeah because also like some people look better in a

00:41:31.180 beard some people don't and mandating things one way or another on that front sometimes leads to

00:41:35.840 unfortunate results for those who are not optimized for one or the other yeah that's it that's a really

00:41:41.720 good point not other than that i mean i love the use of colors the clothing is dirty actually the

00:41:47.480 seek religious wear to me feels very much because you know i i lived in scotland for a period and and

00:41:52.720 you know when you wear your big community there at occasions no but it feels almost like they mandated

00:41:58.980 traditional scottish wear like it has a lot in common with it in terms of the you're you're you're

00:42:05.780 you're wrapping things around you then you're cinching them with traditional scottish wear you always

00:42:09.860 keep a dirk with you yeah which is a a type of knife with traditional seek wear you're always

00:42:14.720 keeping a care plan with you which is a knife and as i mentioned both men and women which is different

00:42:20.740 from this this traditional scottish wear is which women didn't have to carry a knife with them and it's

00:42:24.820 one of the five articles of faith that they must wear at all times um they've got other things which

00:42:29.520 are a little less intrusive like a band that really reminds them of the oneness of god and and some

00:42:34.280 you know hairstyle really and what's interesting too is there's a lot of there's a lot going on i think

00:42:38.640 that what we we outsiders see is the long hair we see the turban and sometimes we see the sword but

00:42:48.580 we don't see that they have special drawers special underwear kind of like mormon underwear for men

00:42:56.480 we don't see the comb the conga which is interesting we don't see the steel bracelet like there are a lot

00:43:03.640 of elements there and i think that the this process of putting on both jewelry and accessories and

00:43:09.700 undergarments and you know personal grooming i would say that like seeks get points for having

00:43:15.660 a very all-encompassing wardrobe they touch on your hair they touch on your accessories they touch on your

00:43:21.400 weapons they touch on your jewelry it allows for a huge amount of individual customization as well

00:43:26.460 it's true yeah so there's flexibility but there's also like it's it is touching so many things

00:43:31.340 more like more united than the jewish outfit the jewish outfit feels like at various points during

00:43:39.380 jewish history they wrote down a fashion item you know that was popular at some time maybe a thousand

00:43:45.500 years ago and then just a few got added over time until it created an end outfit but it feels more

00:43:52.060 intentionally designed to all fit together yeah cohesive and with a solid reason behind everything

00:43:57.980 and symbolic meaning behind everything yeah and i also want to talk about the the the cure pan the

00:44:03.920 knife that they have to wear yeah which i would look awesome one it looks awesome too for religious

00:44:10.180 liberty reasons it gets them access to protection in environments where other religions cannot get

00:44:16.260 protection the one downside to it is because of the mandate was made at a time without modern weaponry

00:44:23.480 it is a form of weapon that is not totally usable in a modern context for the reason it was

00:44:30.160 originally mandated yeah and that's why i think consequentialist rules in terms of stuff this will

00:44:37.100 eventually be included in one of the tracks we talk a little bit about it in in the next one that's

00:44:41.780 coming out but you know in the in the dream of nebuchadnezzar we are told that there will be a future war

00:44:50.780 between the men of iron and the men of clay like there is conflict in the future and for that reason

00:44:58.800 there is a religious mandate to as a community never stop the development of weapons technology

00:45:04.060 like that is one area no matter how peaceful it seems that you are always pushing forward and that

00:45:09.420 every individual has a mandate for self-protection with whatever the most modern and effective

00:45:16.260 type is modern context that might be something like you know carrying a pistol but you know

00:45:24.580 because we're focused on the we're here the not not the deontological oh you have to carry a pistol

00:45:31.420 it's you have to carry the most advanced type of protection possible while that protect while

00:45:37.800 advancing that protection as a community yeah but yeah your thoughts i agree i like

00:45:46.240 it i also love the the scottish jerk you know knives knives are great incorporate knives wonderful

00:45:51.940 yeah well i mean you could have that as a backup you know you maybe you always have to have a knife

00:45:57.000 and some other form of more advanced protection i think it's probably the safest way to design a

00:46:02.720 traditional outfit which is something we'll probably work on it you know moving our kids into

00:46:08.880 once they reach an age where they are safe to have stuff like that yeah yeah not now

00:46:15.660 no i have a knife i gotta play that video let me see what you have

00:46:21.640 no yeah no that no i know that no so well now oh boy oh boy all right shinto religious garb is next

00:46:32.880 yes so you don't like it i love it on a grading scale see because i'd put um a a tier

00:46:42.240 flexible um maybe a minus because i feel like sometimes from a practicality standpoint it's a

00:46:50.100 little distracting to have to deal with that much um but i i like that it's all-encompassing i love that

00:46:56.400 it sort of touches on all things at least for men and i think it should get extra points for being a

00:47:02.160 male restrictive form of dress because as we pointed out men seem to be more likely to easily

00:47:07.100 stray away and and giving them opportunities to lean in especially through othering clothing as we put

00:47:13.320 it is a strict plus so okay solid a solid a yeah okay so we'll do we'll do three now shinto buddhist and

00:47:22.220 harakrishna together so what do you like about shinto so when i think of shinto i immediately think of

00:47:30.320 the dress of like shinto priests that i saw when i visited shinto shrine so we're talking

00:47:36.980 um sort of very traditional looking japanese robes with white billowing long sleeves and a white top

00:47:45.000 and then sort of red billowing pants and i think that they're great because the fabric is fairly heavy

00:47:53.180 but also very breathable it's the kind of thing that you can wear heavy like long underwear beneath

00:47:58.780 during the winter but then during the summer it's something that's very breathable so i think it's

00:48:03.500 great all-weather clothing it's easy to move in in terms of both religious practice you know bowing

00:48:09.540 and getting down and up and moving around it's very easy to move around i think it's it's beautiful the

00:48:15.260 folding the pleating is is gorgeous i like the distinct colors the red and the white very crisp it really

00:48:22.780 stands out especially in the context of shinto shrines wear it you have to have basically a

00:48:28.260 ceremonial position to wear it and that yes i would say just like with catholic wear and this is why it

00:48:33.540 isn't a tier by a long shot is that if everyone who practiced shinto religion had to wear it it would

00:48:41.440 be fantastic but they don't so but all bets are off well and this is one of the secondary problems so

00:48:49.840 like the buddhist stuff looks really good when you're looking at people in a temple or whatever

00:48:53.760 where you know a lot of discipline and they're in a religious community but then when you look at

00:48:58.460 iterations of buddhism where everyone has to wear it like the hair krishna it ends up looking dirty and

00:49:03.840 impoverished yeah just kind of gross yeah it doesn't scale very well so yeah that's my challenge with that

00:49:13.480 well yeah i don't think buddhist robes are by a long shot as practical as shinto clothing because

00:49:22.300 it anything that's like a wrap that's like like a sari for example these are fussy garments all right

00:49:28.840 no no you're not you're not gonna you can't chase after kids easily in those you can't

00:49:34.020 weed the garden easily in those it's it's not a thing great if you're a zen buddhist and your entire

00:49:41.060 life is dealing with the frustration of your clothing and you have no other responsibilities

00:49:44.940 by all means go for it but no yeah absolutely agree so now we're at puritan clothing the

00:49:52.320 traditional puritan clothing not techno puritan clothing are we going to talk about islamic

00:49:55.760 clothing first okay we can talk about islamic clothing first yeah let's go islamic clothing

00:50:00.540 so we can start with like i'll pull a few up here for me to look at yeah well there's there's first

00:50:06.280 all the forms of islamic veiling for women which i think is really interesting because i think some

00:50:11.400 are good at looking aspirational and also being somewhat practical and some are not

00:50:20.400 so for example i think that a like a shayla or hijab they look great but they're very impractical

00:50:29.020 everyone i've known who's worn one or the other is constantly adjusting and fiddling with them

00:50:35.100 because they keep sliding off and they just these aren't people who are new to wearing these either

00:50:41.040 these are people who've worn these all their lives and it just doesn't look practical the problem is

00:50:48.160 that when you start to look at other forms of these garments like i'm gonna mispronounce it but nikob like

00:50:53.200 that it's more attached or kimar they're they're just like they're more like hoods you put on

00:51:00.200 they don't look very good it looks more like your beekeeper mode and i i don't find that aspirational

00:51:06.760 and i think that a lot of a lot of women who are dabbling with going deeper into their faith

00:51:14.140 start to wear a hijab for example because it looks beautiful and they think you know what i feel really

00:51:20.500 good wearing this it kind of solves the the problem of what do i do with my hair which is a

00:51:26.060 non-trivial problem for women it's it's gorgeous but it is too fussy for me and i think it's pretty

00:51:32.320 by the way i think hijabs look really ugly doesn't matter because it's women making this decision yes

00:51:37.440 women and we talked about this in the other episode women look at an item for other women so yeah

00:51:42.320 they want to put it on them the point you were making before is does the item look pretty not does

00:51:48.160 it look pretty on you is the way that women make decisions around clothing and other women in the

00:51:52.700 comments were like yeah simone gets it exactly which is very interesting and i as a guy never

00:51:57.180 understood that that's how women relate to clothing if they don't think about what it looks like on

00:52:01.080 them and i think that that is true i think hijabs like scarves look very good they just don't look

00:52:06.680 good on people women don't care about it like that well in terms of looking good on people i think

00:52:11.460 abayas look really good these are more like the it includes the the fabric draped over the head but

00:52:18.920 also it's more overall a full body robe but your face is still sticking out so it's not a full out

00:52:24.140 burqa it is you know you you have a you have your face and your hands and that's nice i think that

00:52:30.960 they are very beautiful they're more sci-fi they're more impactful so i'm a big fan of those and i think

00:52:38.640 that you know going all in with your dress instead of wearing like normal modest street clothes and then

00:52:44.100 a hijab has you more leaning into your devotion and othering yourself which we see as a strict plus

00:52:49.380 plus it looks like it breathes well it would work well in both very hot and very cold weather

00:52:54.060 so i would put that specifically as as a tier i also am a huge fan of burqas and i think that they

00:53:02.480 are equally appealing to many men and also to women i actually think that they're surprisingly kinky

00:53:09.020 and i say this because the first person to really talk with me about their thoughts about burqas

00:53:14.560 was a guy who was really into bdsm like he's someone who told me about the dungeon in sf before

00:53:20.580 i'd heard about it and he was just like i just think it's really sexy this idea that i'm the only person

00:53:26.400 who gets to see like my female partner wait and was he muslim no not at all was his partner wear a

00:53:34.180 burqa he was thinking about asking her if she would be open to wearing a burqa it is very bdsm

00:53:41.440 i also just love burqas like if i converted i would probably want to wear a burqa i love the practicality

00:53:51.240 of them um i love the privacy they offer i love the sun protection when when when zika virus was out

00:53:59.280 and we were really concerned about pregnancy related complications related to mosquitoes i was

00:54:03.600 like i want to develop the zirka like the zika burqa yeah so like protect you from you know when this

00:54:11.600 is the thing about if people are like well what do you think of muslim male dress right because if you

00:54:16.220 go to qatar or you go to saudi arabia you'll see distinct male outfits those are the best all right

00:54:21.780 are we talking the white flowing yeah here's oh yes i don't count them and i'll explain why i don't

00:54:28.120 count them okay why because they're not actually religious outfits they are cultural they're ethnic

00:54:33.200 as if i said i'm from texas therefore my traditional religious wear is cowboy boots and a cowboy hat and

00:54:40.200 so they're the cowboy boots and cowboy hats of saudi arabia yes that's no what they're wearing and i

00:54:47.360 would say that if you took traditional texas outfit which a lot of texans wear to formal events the

00:54:52.300 same way that scots wear the traditional yeah 100 we went to a wedding that was just that

00:54:57.600 yeah we went to a wedding and it was lots of you know the the style best stetsons yeah

00:55:02.960 very very normal in texas but the problem is is then you've got to compare it to all regional

00:55:09.400 outfits and the problem is is that regional outfits actually school most religious outfits

00:55:14.980 so for example i put the classic texas outfit at like s tier above like even catholics in terms of

00:55:22.020 just pure aesthetics and and then the same with the scottish outfit you know oh yeah yeah

00:55:28.500 is the dirk and the you know that's real s tier there because you also get the mandated weapon right

00:55:35.040 you know um new so people could take religions like you could take presbyterianism and reinvent it

00:55:42.400 for intergenerational durability like per our argument in the pragmatist guide to crafting religion

00:55:47.280 that you can take an existing religion and make it more intergenerationally durable there's an

00:55:51.520 argument to be made that making quote-unquote othering clothing and having more of a uniform

00:55:56.240 for your religion makes it more intergenerationally durable so you could take presbyterianism which

00:56:01.380 comes from scotland and just apply formal scottish dress to it as part of your like just like the

00:56:09.220 amish it wasn't like the amish originally were like they sort of like encapsulated what what year

00:56:14.220 did they just sort of stop advancing with clothing i want to say within the 1800s yeah like 18 something

00:56:18.860 but like it's not like they always dressed that way it was that they decided at one point so you

00:56:23.660 could decide to make a version of an existing religion where you go with traditional texan wear

00:56:29.180 where you go with traditional scottish wear and i hope someone does it because i agree with you yeah i

00:56:34.620 agree some of the modern jewish factions are to some extent like that with some of the unique elements

00:56:39.860 of these horite outfits yeah they're relatively new right yeah well they're based on lines from

00:56:45.620 the bible they are relatively new in terms of their popularity and i often point this out by putting it

00:56:51.540 pictures of medieval jews so you can see like yeah they had head coverings but they looked more like

00:56:56.320 go pieces and a lot less like you know big round furry hats or something like that right so you know

00:57:02.100 the big furry hats are proof that you can make a new thing for an old religion yes you just need to

00:57:09.940 find something in the text that you could cite in the same way that i'm able to do something like say

00:57:14.340 cite the uh nebuchadnezzar dream story to be like this is where a mandate for you know one technological

00:57:21.060 development of weapons must continue and two having a a necessity of arming yourself and being ready for

00:57:29.940 conflict at any time right but the the final group that we're going to go into was puritans the old

00:57:36.860 puritan outfits yes so what do you what do you want to go into here the thing that i laughed about most

00:57:42.340 when first learning about them was this concept of sad colors sometimes spelled sad sometimes spelled

00:57:48.540 sadd because we're talking about old english where people just winged it when it came to spelling but sad

00:57:54.640 colors were basically colors that were both modest and practical and those were the condoned and

00:58:02.680 approved upon or approved clothing of puritans like clothing colors specifically sad colors did not

00:58:09.480 involve using expensive dyes they were more durable they were more washable and they weren't about showing

00:58:14.840 off so hold on i need to look up names of sad colors um because you'll understand also like how not

00:58:23.700 cool these colors are they're like liver yeah they include liver color well they the puritans called

00:58:30.140 it dubois but the color it comes from the french term dubois like wood so brown tawny russet rust purple

00:58:38.440 french green which was a very pale shade of gray green ginger line deer color just great orange

00:58:46.540 grindolin from the french gris d'alene flax blossom the color resemble that there resembles periwinkle

00:58:53.060 puce oh so flattering folding color but the the larger point before you go further with this

00:58:59.600 is that unlike modern beliefs puritans actually the traditional old style puritans did not wear black

00:59:06.780 very frequently they saw specifically the colors black and red to be too bold ostentatious yes

00:59:13.560 ostentatious and black dye was also expensive and black dye also was more likely to fade at that time so

00:59:20.060 it just wasn't as practical either yeah so they would only wear it for very special occasions like

00:59:24.880 having their paintings drawn and so now we associate it with them because we associate them in their most

00:59:30.120 formal attire but it was not a traditional puritan outfit yeah it's very earth tony it's it's very

00:59:37.180 cottagecore yeah well i think that your and my you know the the techno puritan clothing recommendations

00:59:44.580 are very they show part of the difference that we have from the older puritans which is to say that

00:59:51.280 one update with technology now that black dye is you know easy to create it means that yes it makes

00:59:58.700 sense and also i wouldn't have a prohibition against anything bold i would in fact go further and say

01:00:03.440 that wearing bold clothes is in in a way yeah whereas in in in during colonial america's puritan times

01:00:13.340 people were literally put on trial for wearing clothing that was too ostentatious there were

01:00:18.600 conflicts in communities over things like this and their definition of ostentatious would put what you

01:00:23.540 know it would be something that a normal person would wear today let alone an ostentatious person

01:00:29.660 like ostentatious for them was like oh that bow is too big you know they'd freak out about the

01:00:34.360 stupidest things so yeah i think um we we disagree on boldness we're a lot less conformist we're much

01:00:42.180 more in favor of being lumpy and standing out but in general i think that that and we've mentioned

01:00:47.260 this in other videos that closing choices from a religious perspective should be one chosen by

01:00:53.440 individual families but also normalized throughout a family for cost efficiency and long-term use

01:01:00.420 perspective i.e all the kids wearing the same outfit makes it much easier as the kids age to just

01:01:06.920 you know have each bucket labeled with an age range so pick up the stuff and then they've got the the

01:01:13.000 clothing that they need and then if they want to wear something other than the family uniform then

01:01:16.740 they're buying it and dressing themselves yeah um just a note on how we do religious clothing in our

01:01:22.000 system we've mentioned this before but basically you just optimize around efficiency and cost savings

01:01:27.140 and durability and so within our family that means that all of the males and females dress the same

01:01:34.900 so we can just switch out clothes with them and the the kids dress the same as me and that they wear

01:01:40.400 well i wear brightly colored yellow shoes they wear brightly colored yellow shoes this has a lot of

01:01:45.620 benefits one because the shoes are brightly colored it's very easy for me to find them and because it's

01:01:52.380 shoes you know i can't necessarily see their heads poking out anywhere but if i'm at say an airport or a

01:01:58.000 fairground and i lose one of the kids i can just put my head to the floor look around and see their

01:02:02.980 shoes really quickly secondarily it makes it really easy for me to find them when one of them runs

01:02:08.300 away you know once you get over three or four kids you really can't hold them all at once so one

01:02:14.040 it's always running away over something and you know say i'm at a busy fair i can just ask somebody

01:02:18.900 hey have you seen my kid and because we look so distinct and unique and they see me with three other

01:02:25.020 kids dressed exactly like me and they saw a kid like that run by recently they're like oh yeah

01:02:28.760 i saw him run that way and this has saved me in a number of dangerous scenarios already

01:02:34.280 it also lowers the chance of kidnapping a common thing because i'm usually the person out with the

01:02:39.620 kids or a common type of kidnapping these days is women will grab kids when a man is caring for the

01:02:46.420 kid because well if the woman starts screaming oh he's trying to take my kid most people will take

01:02:50.680 the woman's side but if the kid is dressed exactly like the guy who she just took it from

01:02:53.820 this is a much less effective strategy it also lowers the chance that people think i'm being

01:02:58.620 creepy with kids because they're like oh that's obviously your kid when i'm like at a playground

01:03:02.600 or something like that also it makes it obvious if there's a group of kids all dressed the same as

01:03:08.340 one guy and then somebody else tries to grab one of them and walk away with them or hold their hands

01:03:11.920 people would immediately be like oh that's that family's kid that's not your kid so across the board

01:03:17.820 it just has tons and tons and tons of utility however i would recommend if people are like oh i want to

01:03:23.420 join this weird face that's something you guys are creating uh that the what is optimal for my

01:03:29.440 family is not necessarily going to be optimal for your family so because it's a belief system that

01:03:35.520 really glorifies differences and unique cultural systems we would want everybody to build one

01:03:42.860 themselves for their own family with maybe the only unifying thing being something like the efficiency

01:03:49.540 of having a single outfit per gender in a family which is just a lot easier and any other thoughts

01:03:56.140 here on the old puritans where would you rank them i would rank them uh i would rank them as a c plus

01:04:03.800 honestly i think the clothing was was cool but when you actually compare it to other clothing of the

01:04:08.520 time it wasn't that distinctive it was just sort of practical clothing and also like don't do anything

01:04:14.060 cool which i'm kind of against because we're we're in favor of othering clothing and it doesn't seem

01:04:19.440 their clothing was very othering at all so no it wasn't particularly othering for the time period and

01:04:25.200 it came off to me as too fashion driven especially male puritan clothing while they did claim that they

01:04:32.320 were into like humble clothing and stuff like that it just doesn't shout humility there's there's two

01:04:37.760 like the buckle hats and stuff like that to me shout arrogance like there's too much going on there

01:04:43.580 yeah well i think that was more just a product of the time but again that's that well i know but

01:04:49.220 they should be able to have resistance to products of the time in the same way the amish do today i

01:04:54.700 mean nothing about the amish outfits looks ostentatious yeah they're very unpretentious while also being

01:05:01.020 extremely high quality and nicer than the clothing that that i would say 95 plus of americans wear

01:05:07.080 so here's what i think you would find interesting if you actually look at puritan outfit that women wore

01:05:13.120 they look very similar to your outfit which you said you pieced together from several different

01:05:18.080 time periods yeah this is a renaissance these are renaissance days they would wear very different

01:05:23.700 clothing have you actually googled it google puritan women clothing it looks almost exactly like the way

01:05:29.740 you dress they would they would wear like sort of overdresses that you would fasten over the

01:05:35.820 your like bodice and chemise i don't wear an overdress i just have a skirt and a bodice which is a much

01:05:43.880 older like renaissance and pre-renaissance kind of outfit

01:05:46.500 do they yeah i mean i'm looking at stuff here and i'm not seeing this overdress in all of the the outfits

01:05:55.060 no i know my puritan clothing they wore overdresses yeah these are all overdresses this is 100 overdresses

01:06:03.140 so yeah and that's that's a whole nother love layer of of fuss that i don't want to bother with

01:06:08.840 so you're you're actually even more bare bones than the the puritan outfits which i like

01:06:13.900 yes faster to put on and still very but that's because we have the modern advent of long underwear

01:06:20.460 and leggings so what while they they could not under their chemise put on like high-tech thermal

01:06:28.540 underwear i can meaning that they would need to have that overdress they would need to have all

01:06:33.640 these additional layers in their stockings which took a lot more to keep up and put on you'd have

01:06:38.960 to tie it down with ribbons and hold it up with various things so it's all about combining the old

01:06:43.300 with the new as far as i'm concerned well that makes sense to me so what would you say is the best

01:06:49.300 religious garment probably the amish gosh same same the amish win the amish win congratulations

01:06:58.220 amish we love you the catholics all wore like if you if all catholics dressed like nuns here it would

01:07:04.920 be catholics um we did go over the orthodox christians though but they're i just don't know

01:07:11.240 i think it's the same problem is that that's just for like religious practitioners it's the same

01:07:16.020 problem of the catholic church except i wouldn't their outfits are strictly more ridiculous than

01:07:20.440 catholic outfits yeah so i wouldn't want them for all the practitioners so so sorry when somebody's

01:07:24.940 like what do i mean by more ridiculous i'll put them on stage here keep in mind that we're people

01:07:28.200 that are intrinsically repelled by anything that appears garish or ostentatious and the thing about

01:07:34.140 the catholic outfits is they appear elite but until you get to cardinal level which i find kind of

01:07:39.640 gross they don't appear garish whereas the the orthodox ones go right into garish territory

01:07:45.780 um yeah and ostentation it's too much too much yeah the cool thing about most catholic dress is

01:07:52.280 it it is basically couture and i would recommend there's a really great podcast for people who like

01:07:57.700 fashion called articles of interest and one of their more recent podcast episodes in 2024

01:08:02.260 is about catholic clothing and the people who make it many of whom are not catholic by the way

01:08:07.740 so it's not one of those interior cottage industries but it is just incredibly expensive

01:08:12.340 garments you know sometimes in the the thousands and thousands of dollars you get like one for life

01:08:17.580 basically because they're so carefully and well made with just the best fabrics but i think that

01:08:22.420 also speaks to the elitism of of catholic clothing and that is that is not a feature so interesting

01:08:28.780 stuff for more reading or listening all right love you to death the bone love you malcolm like and

01:08:33.200 subscribe and drop apple yeah honestly if you could leave if you have any sort of apple device

01:08:38.820 and you could leave us a five-star review on apple podcast yeah but i was just looking at my

01:08:45.160 classmates podcast acquired and they've got 2.5 000 and i'm annoyed so please help malcolm feel happy i

01:08:52.040 have i have to beat that guy okay you know he may have started his podcast a decade before me but

01:08:56.940 you know anyway i love you to death the mom i love you too

01:09:00.900 um about the slide what how crazy was it it was so so so so so so so so crazy you want to go on the

01:09:12.740 what made it crazy what was it like it was like i was in a real rocket ship can you go on can you go

01:09:20.600 can you go on the fly i don't think it's for grown-ups but uh why don't you go with toasty

Based Camp - October 14, 2024

Bad Habits： Making a Tier List for Religious Clothing

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