Based Camp： How Leftist Media became Psychologically Blind to Reality
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Summary
Diana Fleischman, author of How to Train Your Boyfriend and host of the Aporia Podcast, joins us to talk about her new book, "How to Train your Boyfriend: A Guide to Empathy and Empathy in the 21st Century," and her thoughts on genetic engineering and embryo selection.
Transcript
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He is pro-aborting fetuses if they show signs of a potential medical problem, but against
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not choosing a pre-implanted IVF embryo because they might end up showing one of those diseases.
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So he is more pro-abortion, like even mid-stage abortion, than he is pro-embryo selection.
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Well, it's not just whack, but I think what it shows is this, and this is a wider topic
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I wanted to talk about here, is this insanity you get, and you see this on both the left
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and the right, but right now the left is more in control of media, so they do it more, where
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there are individuals who clearly put genuinely no thought into their actual beliefs about
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the world, and they're choosing their beliefs on what they think will get them the most
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Yeah, it's absolutely a progressive status quo bias, because at one point in a debate that
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we were having on Twitter months or years ago, Noah Carl said, let's say you could do prenatal
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screening with blood on a woman, and a woman finds out that her baby's going to have a
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lower IQ than she will on the basis of this genetic screening.
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What do you think if that woman aborts the baby?
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And he says, I think that's misguided, but I don't think that's eugenics.
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And so because he can't say that any abortion is in any way bad, because that is a sacred
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And so I remember when I used to teach, I taught human sexuality, and I taught some other topics
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around philosophy of science to undergraduates.
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I remember asking students, is it worse for a woman to abort a baby that she finds out is
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Or is it worse for her to choose an embryo that's a boy, rather than choosing an embryo that's
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And almost, I mean, it was really profound that people thought the abortion was okay,
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The percentage of the population that are, I mean, so we on our podcast talk about like
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And I think that people might think we're going too far when we call it a virus that
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Hi, and we are excited to welcome back Diana Fleischman, author of the soon to come out book,
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How to Train Your Boyfriend, but also an evolutionary psychologist, host of the Aporia podcast,
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an overall amazing and awesome writer and reformed academic.
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She's made it out, ladies and gentlemen, and thank God.
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What we wanted to talk about today was an article that they've actually recently written on us.
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It's called Bad Arguments Versus Healthy Babies, Rebutting Rutherford on Embryo Selection.
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So it's about all of these deranged people who attack Simone and I online for selecting
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against things like our kids getting cancer in terms of like the genetics of our embryos.
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I've been arguing that this is just like, it'll always have terrible results to do this.
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Even though whenever you're doing IVF, a lot of people don't know this.
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They actually already sort your embryos by how pretty the embryos look, which isn't really
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correlated with that much, but they're still getting selected based on a trait like that.
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But what I wanted to talk about this podcast was specifically like the meta around this.
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Why do people react like insanely to topics like this?
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We can start with Adam Rutherford too, because he presents a lot of great examples of just also
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I'll just give an overview of the piece really quickly.
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So the piece talks about polygenic embryo screening.
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Right now, people do look at single trait or single allele diseases for their offspring.
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They look at aneuploidy when they're selecting an embryo.
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You guys and Rafal Smigrotsky and some other people are, I don't know, are there 200 babies
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And so there's this very outspoken critic who's a BBC presenter.
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And he has a beef with Steve Suh because Steve Suh has written some blogs about making
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And whenever I saw him come out saying polygenic screening is terrible, he kept saying, read
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So I read the relevant whatever, 20 pages of his book, and it was almost entirely bullshit.
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And the evidence he uses is really asymmetrical for his claim.
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Of course, about seven pages of it is just like about how bad Steve Suh is and how he's
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And then how Dominic Cummings is associated with some other people that liberals don't
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And the actual meat and potatoes of like what his case is, is made very succinctly and
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not very well in a smaller portion of that book.
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So that's, there's, there's a few different arguments that I make.
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Oh, no, before you continue, I want to pull on something you said there, which was, I
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just find it really rich that he could be arguing like that this guy who is clearly
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a eugenicist, it's pretending to take an anti-eugenics position.
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He is the guy here saying, we need genetically pure humans.
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I want to use the government to restrict the reproductive choices of individuals to maintain
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It's like, is there anything more eugenics than that?
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Well, I don't actually know if he's, this one thing is like, it's pretty short on actual
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So he often endorses this guy called Ewan Bernie, who says, yes, polygenic screening should
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And it doesn't surprise, I mean, the UK is really has very strict laws, a lot of which
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don't make a lot of sense about reproductive freedom.
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And one of the best things I think about the United States is, is, is the reproductive
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freedom here is the fact that people can do IVF and can do sex selection, can do polygenic
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But what I've thought was really weird about what, how Rutherford responded to this.
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It's one thing to say polygenic screening won't work.
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The people who are using it are like wasting their money, whatever, whatever.
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He made fun of your appearance, like not once or like two or three times.
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Like he was like very intensely against you both.
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I know that there was a huge backlash against the pronatalism stuff more generally, but I
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think that people bristled at the idea because they just read the, the title of that telegraph
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piece that said that you were elite, but people bristle at the idea that you guys think that
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Well, here's the, here's the first of all, like that's not what we're trying to do.
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But one of the things that I've read in this article, I didn't know about that just to
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me, like signals, this guy is a complete grifter is that he is pro aborting fetuses if they
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show signs of a potential medical problem, but against not choosing a pre-implanted IVF
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embryo because they might end up showing one of those diseases.
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So he is more pro abortion, like even mid-stage abortion than he is pro embryo selection.
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Well, that is whack, but I think what it shows is this, and this is a wider topic I wanted
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to talk about here is this insanity you get, and you see this on both the left and the
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right, but right now the left is more in control of media.
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So they do it more where they, there are individuals who clearly like put genuinely no thought into
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their actual beliefs about the world and they're choosing their beliefs on what they think will
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It's absolutely a progressive status quo bias because at one point in a debate that we were
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having on Twitter months or years ago, Noah Carl said, let's say you could do prenatal
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screening with blood on a woman and a woman finds out that her baby's going to have a
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lower IQ than she will on the basis of this genetic screening.
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What do you think if that woman aborts the baby?
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And he says, I think that's misguided, but I don't think that's eugenics.
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And so because he can't say that any abortion is in any way bad, because that is a sacred
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And so I remember when I used to teach, I taught human sexuality and I taught some other topics
00:08:36.800
around philosophy of science to undergraduates.
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I remember asking students, is it worse for a woman to abort a baby that she finds out as
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a girl when she wants a boy, or is it worse for her to choose an embryo that's a boy rather
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And almost, I mean, it was really profound that people thought the abortion was okay,
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The percentage of the population that are, I mean, so when we, we on our podcast talk
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about like this progressive memetic zombifying virus, and I think that people might think
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we're going too far when we call it a virus that sort of wipes out people's higher order
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logic in the same way that one of these funguses like replaces an ant's instincts and causes
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But when you hear things like this and you see this even in majority population surveys,
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especially with an educated group like students, I really don't think I am underselling how
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zombifying this virus is, because to me, there's just no logical argument where you could be
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anti, it is wrong to select something at the stage of the embryo, but right to do it at
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And not only that, so one of the arguments that Rutherford makes where I got it, I pulled
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a few quotes from Simone is that he says that doing IVF in order to do polygenic screening
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The people who talk about polygenic screening are mostly men, and therefore it's a feminist
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I've heard this exact same argument about a sex-selective abortion or even abortion more
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generally, that women are going to be pushed into aborting babies if they don't want to.
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And it seems very strange to me that he hasn't thought about all these alternative arguments,
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which is there's a ton of arguments in the feminist sphere, which are things like we should
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outlaw surrogacy because surrogacy can exploit women.
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We should outlaw IVF because IVF can exploit women.
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Pornography, prostitution, abortion, because women can't make their own choices.
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And he doesn't realize that he's actually making the same really, I think, kind of misogynistic
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So what I'm realizing after listening to this is that there are two elements of discourse
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One is just people sending signals to rise in their own local status hierarchy, and they're
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And then there are people who actually enjoy kind of discussing these things or seeing if
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they can win a debate and actually engage with the ideas.
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But how can one separate those out and know when it's worth it to engage or not?
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I mean, I think the communities are pretty separated from each other.
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The sad thing is, is I think the first group that you're talking about controls our university
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system, which many people see as the priest class in our society that determines what's
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But I just think that people, one thing that happens on Twitter that I see a lot is that
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people curate a following, and then they're beholden to the whims of that following, right?
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They're like, there's some people who I see bite bullets all the time, and their audience
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There's people like Rutherford who I see attacking other people.
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Like, I think he called Boris Johnson like a saturated bin rag or something.
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Like, he's got a million different synonyms for shit that he uses like against people,
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There's all these kinds of insults that he used.
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And his audience is like, they love that red meat.
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But one time, which is like a few years back, Richard Dawkins says, you might be against
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There was a tweet by Dawkins saying, you might be against it, but selective breeding definitely
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And this is the only time where I was like, okay, Rutherford says, you're right, it would
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And he like went through it and he said, eugenics actually would work, right?
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And since then, I have not seen him bite a bullet.
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I'm in the middle of reading How Minds Change by David McRaney, because I think it's really
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interesting to go into like the psychology of how humans are able to change minds.
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And in this one chapter on reasoning, he goes into a lot of the research on how and why
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And there's one study where it's suggested that basically when subjects were provided
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with their own reasoning for coming to a conclusion as though it was someone else's
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They were like, oh no, here's where it's wrong.
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Because they didn't realize that they were arguing against their own reasoning.
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And it indicates or suggests that human reasoning is really meant to happen in some kind of
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social format where people present their thoughts.
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They present why they came to the conclusions they came to.
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And those are, they can criticize others' conclusions.
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And then that in a social environment, especially where people are motivated to be somewhat cohesive,
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which makes sense, and that social cohesion does play a big role in why we believe what
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we believe or what we choose to believe, then you're able to get to the truth in an interesting
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I mean, you would think that in the right conditions, social media would be perfect for
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We would present our reasoning as to why we believe certain things are good, like apologetic risk
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And then some people would say, ah, here's the flaw in your reasoning.
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And because we want to be accepted by them, then we would do that.
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And yet that doesn't seem to be how it ultimately plays out at all, especially for people like
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David Rutherford, because instead of being able to survive flaws in his reasoning being
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He's a high priest of the existing priest cast of our society, given that he's still within
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the university system, which Diana has escaped.
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And being was in that system, given how spicy these topics are, if he deviates even a little
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bit from the socially accepted norms within that ideological tribe, he can lose his job.
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You get fired and you're that kind of a personality.
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No one else will hire you because your only audience is this, you know, far.
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He's already pushed out any other audience he may have.
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He's got no real skills other than being in this priest cast.
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So, I mean, when I was in academia, I felt like I could say whatever I wanted.
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And I did say almost whatever I wanted, bar a certain like certain edge cases, but actually
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And also it reflects on Humanist UK, which is where he's president.
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The thing that shocked me about his attacks on you guys is that if I frame this a certain
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way, which I have in this article, is that he's attacking people who chose an embryo with
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He's attacking people for using their reproductive freedom, a mother for using their reproductive
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freedom to prevent her daughter from dying what her grandmother died of.
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And yet nobody gives a shit because you guys are eugenicists, right?
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He is definitionally a eugenicist if he wants to use the government to maintain the genetic
00:16:15.340
So a few months back, I talked to Brian Kaplan for Aporia and Brian Kaplan, who wrote Selfish
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And I asked him if there was backlash against Selfish Reasons to Have More Kids.
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Because right at that time, I was thinking about pronatalism.
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You guys were getting really attacked on Twitter.
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And he said that, yes, he got attacked a lot for Selfish Reasons to Have More Kids.
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It seems like pronatalism now is more controversial than even antinatalism.
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Telling people they should have kids is more controversial.
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And the way he framed it was, when I tell you, with Selfish Reasons to Have More Kids, I said,
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I'm giving you a 20% coupon for having children.
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Having children is 20% less work than you think it's going to be.
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He's like, if I gave you a 20% coupon for chocolate, and you're like, I don't like chocolate,
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would you attack me online for having given you a 20% coupon offer for chocolate?
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But when it comes to this question about child rearing, and even things like the other
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day, my husband, Jeffrey, asked somebody if they were interested in having more kids.
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But questions like, are you planning on having more children?
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What kinds of conditions are keeping you from having kids have become really touchy.
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And maybe it's because people are waiting to bear children.
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Maybe because people who are infertile see it as a form of inferiority.
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But it's very tricky for me to untangle why this is such a dumpster fire.
00:17:44.300
So there's a few topics I want to touch on here.
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One is he said that he was like, because he was able to frame us as the whole eugenics
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thing really has nothing to do with it from his perspective.
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It's that we are conservatives and he is a progressive.
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And therefore, he can call us any slur, no matter how illogical, and his side will buy
00:18:01.480
And I think it's the same thing with like the coupon argument.
00:18:03.680
Like if somebody was giving out coupons for like 20% off a gun or something like that,
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And the reason why the mind virus went to this position of kids are evil is because people
00:18:15.560
who are, quote unquote, from the virus's perspective, wasting their time not proselytizing and instead
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caring for kids, they are not following the sort of reproductive strategy of the virus and
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And those brands of progressivism are outcompeted by the other brands of progressivism.
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And so I think what you're really seeing when you talk about antinatalism versus pronatalism
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is it's really just in the same way that if I went to a conservative event and I said
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something like about global warming being a problem or like pro-environmentalism, I might
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be immediately attacked, even though there's no reason for them to really be intrinsically
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It's more just that this has become a calling card of people who they see as their enemies.
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So let me, yeah, let me build on that actually.
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I mean, Malcolm argues that the key differentiating point between progressives and conservatives is
00:19:03.040
that progressives are optimizing for intergenerational fitness and well-being, also for like minimizing
00:19:09.760
in the moment suffering or discomfort, whereas conservatives are not really caring about in
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And they're more optimizing for intra-generation, so from generation to generation, well-being.
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And there's basically, I mean, having kids inherently means in the moment suffering over comfort,
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It's the hard choice initially and for like a good 18 to 30 to 40 to 50 years, however many
00:19:36.540
And it is definitely not about having like an easier time in the moment or a more pleasant
00:19:46.240
Well, and I think it also, to something else you pointed out is I think that people, and
00:19:50.580
this is an issue that is just not as talked about as it should be talked about, given that
00:19:54.860
it's the progressive, like the super virus doesn't really care about this as a concept,
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which is the increasing of fertility of our species.
00:20:02.580
And this is causing a lot of heartache for a lot of families.
00:20:06.340
And it requires the use of, unfortunately, I think a lot more aggressive fertility technology
00:20:13.120
Yeah, which still runs counter to the progressive thing.
00:20:15.380
If the progressive thing is, oh, if this hurts your feelings, don't engage with it.
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If this hurts your feelings, look the other way, give up, stay inside, don't go outside,
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Have a little mission in front of somebody if it could hurt their feelings.
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Even if you're talking about technology, like you couldn't go to someone and be like,
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hey, there's this technology you might not have tried yet.
00:20:33.940
Actually, it shows up in Rutherford's argument, right?
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Like one of his core arguments is, oh, IVF is hard and it's painful for women.
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Like how dare you imply that women should go through IVF?
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And I think that is fairly indicative of this general theme that anything that requires suffering
00:20:50.240
or discomfort or obligates it is therefore bad.
00:20:53.920
And having kids is kind of, I mean, obviously like the joy you get from kids is so much more,
00:20:59.060
And the meaning in life and all this amazing contentment, but definitely like the in the
00:21:03.580
moment convenience and comfort does take a major hit with everything.
00:21:07.900
I mean, I've been through IVF lots of times because I've been also, I was an altruistic
00:21:11.240
egg donor and I just say in the piece, I say like, I'd rather do IVF than have four hours
00:21:20.680
And also the actual sleep training or the early whatever months or weeks, like to me, this is
00:21:28.560
like complaining about traffic on the way to a 10 year prison sentence.
00:21:32.340
So like, yeah, seriously, although that frames it all very negatively, but like nobody, nobody
00:21:38.880
This is the, another thing about demographic collapse, this idea of demographic collapse
00:21:42.500
being incredibly controversial is that you're saying a variety of things that are anti-progressive
00:21:46.660
views, which is they're interested in doing things for the greater good.
00:21:50.460
So to speak like recycling or not flying or being vegetarian or whatever the case may be.
00:21:56.180
And so what you're saying is like, you guys are doing the opposite of what you should
00:21:59.800
But another one of their key tenets is that immigration can solve all these problems.
00:22:04.300
And by saying that we should have our own children, what you're saying is that immigrants
00:22:09.140
So it's like implicitly an anti-immigration sentiment.
00:22:12.300
And for our listeners, I just want to touch on this point really quickly, because a lot
00:22:15.280
of people in the US don't know this, but as of 2019, by the UN's own statistics, and
00:22:19.080
they are famously really aggressive with these.
00:22:23.160
By 2019, all of Latin America, so Central America, South America, and the Caribbean collectively
00:22:30.400
So we are draining from an evaporating pond, and they refuse to look at that.
00:22:36.580
I mean, I just, I don't know how much brain drain, I tried to do a deep dive on brain drain
00:22:42.380
I know that you guys say when you import people from other places, they acquire the
00:22:51.160
Although apparently Japanese people have more children when they come our career.
00:22:55.740
So actually, I want to touch on this a little bit.
00:22:57.600
So one of the things that I think goes against the conservative meme, which is that typically
00:23:01.960
the more diverse an environment someone is in, the more children they will have, which
00:23:07.060
is one of the reasons why in prosperous countries, the US and Israel have some of the lowest cases
00:23:12.880
of fertility collapse, whereas monocultures like Korea have some of the highest levels of
00:23:18.440
But if you take a Korean immigrant and they come to the US, their fertility rate actually increases
00:23:22.480
by I think around 50% on average from when we were doing the statistics, which is just
00:23:27.380
But obviously, they're in a much more diverse environment.
00:23:29.640
Now, if you're talking about first generation immigrants on average to the US, the fertility
00:23:33.080
rate is 1.7 right now, which is around the US average.
00:23:42.260
But what's really interesting there is it's not that much above the US average, even when people
00:23:47.920
So what you were seeing there is that there's all of these talks about like, we're not good
00:23:55.540
But in terms of fertility rate, it actually happens really, really, really quickly.
00:23:59.160
And what that means from a progressive standpoint is you can't like bring in an immigrant population
00:24:04.720
You need to continually import these people for it to be a solution.
00:24:10.100
And the only way that you are able to continually import them is if their countries stay high fertility.
00:24:16.100
And on average, a country only has above repopulation fertility rate right now if the average citizen
00:24:22.940
So you basically need to keep these other countries poor.
00:24:29.360
It is interesting in terms of the incentive structures and how all these things don't work.
00:24:35.360
And I'm really interested in digging into the immigration debate.
00:24:37.680
I just feel like I need to devote like two solid weeks to it because, you know, Richard
00:24:41.320
Hanania and Noah Carl and all these people, Garrett Jones, have been writing about
00:24:45.540
immigration and whether or not it's good or bad.
00:24:48.220
There was a very funny tweet about basically about how Confederate whites moved up North
00:24:53.180
and about how they changed the culture of the North throughout the United States.
00:24:58.540
And Philip Lemoine, who's on Twitter, was like, yes, of course, Confederate whites changed
00:25:03.080
the culture of the North forever when they immigrated there.
00:25:05.180
But of course, that would never happen with immigrants coming to the United States today.
00:25:08.620
And so he was basically making fun of this idea that this was actually a very, it was a
00:25:13.440
progressive talking point, was about this historical phenomenon, which is something that they would
00:25:20.940
Well, I mean, for our listeners, our position on immigration, because I bet they're wondering
00:25:24.500
here, I mean, we are very pro policies that let in productive individuals to immigrate.
00:25:29.200
I'm really in no way against productive immigration to the United States because we live in a different
00:25:35.820
If something makes the U.S.'s economy strong, we need to focus on individual cultural groups
00:25:40.120
thriving, and your individual cultural group is going to die if you seal it off from the
00:25:50.220
So you end up like Korea, like a desperate old man in a hermetic tube who's slowly dying.
00:25:55.960
Keeping immigrants out because you're weak, it just allows you to die in peace.
00:26:03.740
So for me, there's two different arguments that are very compelling that pull me in diametrically
00:26:09.480
So there's this Peter Singer utilitarian child in the pond thing that Brian Kaplan talks about,
00:26:14.320
which is like, why wouldn't we take anyone and everyone who wants to come to our country?
00:26:21.680
It's a win-win, not even selecting people, just letting anybody in.
00:26:25.800
And he also says that immigrant crime stats are overblown.
00:26:29.380
And that's very anti-conservative kind of talking point, even though Brian Kaplan is
00:26:35.660
There's this other kind of IQ realist idea that I have.
00:26:39.380
Also, I think that people are often happier in more homogenous societies.
00:26:43.840
It can be very difficult to get along with neighbors and people that you have nothing
00:26:50.000
Is there a tipping point in terms of people who are from very culturally diverse backgrounds?
00:26:54.880
What is the tipping point in order to be able to sustain the civilization and institutions
00:26:59.800
that we have come to enjoy and rely on for prosperity and stability?
00:27:04.240
Like, is that a possibility that there could be some kind of voter base or letting in a certain
00:27:13.380
To me, I was looking at this stat the other day, the idea that a Sweden with 40% Muslim
00:27:18.580
population and a Sweden with 5% Muslim population are going to sustain the same institutions the
00:27:24.900
same way without any difficulties seems really far-fetched to me.
00:27:29.260
So these are all difficult questions, I think, to grapple with.
00:27:33.500
It's going to be interesting to see it play out.
00:27:35.480
We do do an immigration podcast sometimes because we have a lot of thoughts on that that are
00:27:40.620
You guys should talk to Kaplan about it because he is like, he knows everything and he's just
00:27:45.360
the best faith interlocutor about immigration that I've ever heard.
00:27:51.700
Although, Diane, I have to say, I'm already dying to talk with you again.
00:27:54.760
When you're ready, when your book is closer to coming out, will you come back on and talk
00:27:59.920
And you can check out her podcast right now, which is similar how we divided the world into
00:28:05.380
One is people just trying to ideologically signal to their tribe and the other is people trying
00:28:09.940
They're very much in the get to the truth camp.
00:28:13.760
And I'm grateful that given that I have a small child and another on the way that I managed
00:28:18.360
to find a place with them because I really feel good about what I'm doing.
00:28:21.440
So yeah, my most recent interview is with Paul Bloom.
00:28:29.180
Ayla, Mike Bailey, those people are all coming out at some point.
00:28:34.940
And where else can people find your work, read more of what you write?
00:28:40.020
I'm at sentientist and yeah, check me out there.
00:28:44.580
Oh, Diana, you were such a delight to speak with.
00:28:46.560
I'm looking forward to all of your upcoming podcasts and articles.
00:28:49.480
I just love every time something from you comes out.
00:28:51.900
So everyone check out Diana's work if you haven't already, and hopefully we'll have you