Based Camp - June 19, 2023


Based Camp： How Some use LGBTQ+ to Launder White Pride

Topics
white pride
Hosted by
Malcolm Collins Simone Collins
Mentioned
Simone Malcolm Pride Cape Cod Brown
Based Camp： Lizard People are Real and Simone is One of Them Based Camp： The (s＊x) Slave Race Hypothesis

Episode Stats


Length

30 minutes

Words per minute

179.28

Word count

5,408

Sentence count

311

Harmful content

Misogyny

3

sentences flagged

Toxicity

11

sentences flagged

Hate speech

25

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

In this episode, Simone and Malcolm discuss the rise of white pride in the LGBTQ+ community, and why it might be a symptom of a larger cultural problem: White Pride. They discuss what it means to be a white person in a culture that values and celebrates diversity, and what it might mean for the future of the gay+ community.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00.000 I think what really did resonate with me was this backdoor to pride, even if you are white. 0.66
00:00:05.940 And I wonder if that's why there's creep into the pride community. 0.92
00:00:09.500 I was just listening to commentary today on the addition of, for example,
00:00:15.120 poly people maybe to LGBTQA plus pride and also asexual people.
00:00:21.060 Many people complain, well, asexuality is more like a hormone imbalance than it is a sexuality.
00:00:26.540 But then where do you draw the line?
00:00:28.060 If in the end, maybe someone being gay or trans or any other thing could be a product of their hormones, 0.72
00:00:34.440 which could even be influenced by things that their mothers did or did not do, did or did not consume or were not exposed to.
00:00:41.740 So I feel like there's this really interesting gradation.
00:00:43.920 At any rate, maybe why some people are really drawn to try to loop themselves in to things like Pride Month when they are, for example, just asexual or poly.
00:00:54.020 Maybe that's into that to say, like, I want to be proud about something about myself culturally, something about my people and my tribe.
00:01:00.040 And I also think that, like, I don't know, of the people I know who are asexual, who are poly, they are overwhelmingly white, overwhelmingly on the wealthier and more educated end of the spectrum.
00:01:10.000 I do think it's telling that of all the places where I've been in the world, that where we see Pride most, I guess, openly and enthusiastically celebrated is also where white culture is also super not cool to celebrate.
00:01:27.840 Like, I was just thinking about, like, where's the only other place where I've seen, like, enthusiastic celebration of LGBT?
00:01:33.940 Can you guess?
00:01:35.680 I don't know.
00:01:36.680 Germany.
00:01:37.980 Oh, interesting.
00:01:39.000 Yeah, they do have bigger Pride events in other places.
00:01:42.120 Yeah, Pride in coastal cities is the strongest.
00:01:44.260 Because when I think about, like, the best, like, gay Pride parades I've been to or drag shows or, like, events in general, San Francisco, obviously, D.C., Cape Cod, like, just the best.
00:01:54.980 Oh, yeah, those are definitely locations where you would have the highest amount of cultural shame.
00:01:59.460 With this new model of LGBT as laundered white pride, do you view it any differently? 1.00
00:02:05.440 Like, I don't know what to make of it yet in my head.
00:02:07.440 I think I'm going to...
00:02:08.420 Well, it's new kindness.
00:02:09.060 It's not great to grow up feeling like your ethnic group is wretched and deplorable and, like, intrinsically, genetically, or culturally worse than all other groups.
00:02:23.500 And not everybody raises their kids believing this, but there definitely is a portion of the population that raises their kids believing this.
00:02:28.820 And I think that portion of the population's kids is the portion that is most likely to end up identifying it's LGBT.
00:02:35.260 I don't see it as a bad thing, really, because it's better than these kids having nothing they can have pride in.
00:02:42.240 Yeah.
00:02:43.520 Especially if you buy this meme that there's just something intrinsically immoral about white people or whiteness, which exists within certain cultural groups, especially in the San Francisco, New York area.
00:02:56.500 People started basing their identities off of the state of the sexual identity research 20 years ago.
00:03:03.440 And now, if you update the research, like if the research finds new things, well, then you've undermined someone's identity, right?
00:03:11.140 So you can't update.
00:03:12.240 It's now canon.
00:03:13.180 It's now whatever the state of the field was 20 years ago, that's canon.
00:03:18.040 Even if it doesn't align with the actual data, which is one of the things that we point out in our book is the concept of even gay and straight is probably not a really effective way of talking about sexual identity.
00:03:31.820 Would you like to know more?
00:03:33.540 Hello, Malcolm.
00:03:34.880 Hello, Simone. 0.69
00:03:36.060 What are we going to talk about today?
00:03:38.860 Is it white pride?
00:03:41.540 You shared with me the most interesting theory about white pride this morning.
00:03:45.660 I would love for you to expand upon it.
00:03:47.520 Let's dive into it.
00:03:48.980 Yeah.
00:03:49.360 So one thing that we were talking about was this concept that, you know, generally, when you're looking at falling fertility rates, one of the things that's really associated with cultural groups that have been able to maintain their fertility rate is pride in that cultural group.
00:04:04.620 Like a belief that we are a good thing in the world and more of this thing should exist.
00:04:09.420 And we argue this is one of the reasons why Jewish populations have been so resistant to fertility collapse because a lot of the times we talk to a Jewish person and they're like, I want more Jewish people to exist in the future.
00:04:18.820 And okay, so that makes a lot of sense.
00:04:20.780 But when you're talking about white people more broadly, like Caucasians generally, I think that there's this belief that if they have any pride in an aspect of who they are or their culture, that is white pride and it is evil.
00:04:36.000 The interesting thing is there has been a group that has come with a message that says, oh, actually, if you join our cultural group, now you can be white and have pride in the cultural group you've joined.
00:04:54.320 And this is the LGBTQ plus population.
00:04:57.000 Just for some statistics here, gay married couples have a higher medium household income than opposite sex married couples, but their poverty rates are about equal.
00:05:09.040 And if you look across the U.S. population, you actually see higher rates of black and Hispanic LGBT identification currently, but this disappears and becomes the opposite when you correct for age.
00:05:25.960 This is more because there are more younger black and Hispanic people in the general population.
00:05:31.020 And I think the real smoking gun that this is what's happening, that it is allowing predominantly white, middle and upper class individuals who otherwise are told by society they can't have pride in anything, well, now you're allowed to have pride, is that it is now becoming kind of offensive to discuss that being gay is something you're born as, or being trans is something you're born as.
00:05:55.540 And if you think this is an offensive thing to discuss, and if you think this is an offensive thing to discuss, and you're like, no, nobody thinks that's offensive to discuss, well, okay, so there's a recent study.
00:06:02.980 Simone, why don't you talk about this study?
00:06:05.100 Right. Yeah, because I was the one to first get really freaked out about it.
00:06:08.460 One group of researchers looking at the presence of endocrine disruptors in first trimester mothers found that mothers with elevated levels of endocrine disruptors also saw higher rates of boys born essentially with like less transition to full maleness.
00:06:25.940 So, for example, the distance between the anus and the penis was shorter, sort of like that developmental stage happened less completely, less successfully.
00:06:34.340 And then around age eight, boys who in utero in first trimester had mothers with higher concentrations of endocrine disruptors in their bloodstreams also showed less, we'll say dimorphically male play.
00:06:48.840 So they played more like girls essentially, which indicates that there are exogenous factors that could affect the extent to which someone shows certain dimorphic gendered behavior, as well as physiological traits. 0.92
00:07:03.080 So I was bringing up this study with an African friend of mine, like from Africa, it's a slightly different cultural background, they're not as up to date with like modern American progressive culture.
00:07:13.240 And I was like, well, and of course, I don't really talk about this study publicly much because it'd be seen as wildly offensive to trans people.
00:07:19.200 And they were like, wait, why would that be if it wouldn't that like be an argument that would show that the explosion in the trans population could be a biological change and that these people aren't imagining it and that there really is like a lower gender differentiation or many more people being born actually the opposite gender.
00:07:40.920 And I was like, why is this such an offensive concept to these communities when it seemingly the way that when I grew up in a gay community, you were born gay, you were born trans, and that was the defense for that community.
00:07:55.880 And what I realized is now it's considered offensive to either say that you were born gay or to say that you're definitively not born gay and it's a choice.
00:08:06.080 It's the same with the trans community, right? 1.00
00:08:07.760 It's like they want to keep this in a box.
00:08:09.820 They don't want anybody asking these questions or saying that it could be something that you were born as.
00:08:14.780 And so the question is, why would you want to keep that in a box?
00:08:17.220 Well, the reason you would want to keep it in a box, because so long as people aren't born gay or born trans, if anyone can become gay or trans, like the old political lesbians, these were a group of feminists who believed that it was immoral to be heterosexual because you are like benefiting men. 1.00
00:08:36.240 But if you say that anyone can join the LGBTQ plus community, well, then you have fully opened it to the entire like white upper class community to join because this pride offering is more valuable to them.
00:08:53.500 But I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, Simone.
00:08:56.680 This stuff is hard for me.
00:08:58.200 I think what really did resonate with me was this backdoor to pride, even if you are white. 0.66
00:09:03.860 And I wonder if that's why there's creep into the pride community. 0.92
00:09:07.820 I was just listening to commentary today on the addition of, for example, poly people, maybe to LGBTQA plus pride and also asexual people.
00:09:19.240 Like many people complain like, well, asexuality is more like a hormone imbalance than it is a sexuality.
00:09:25.380 But then like, where do you draw the line?
00:09:27.380 If in the end, maybe someone being gay or trans or any other thing could be sort of a product of their hormones, which could even be influenced by things that their mothers did or did not do, did or did not consume or were not exposed to.
00:09:41.000 So I feel like there's this really interesting gradation at any rate, maybe why some people are really drawn to try to loop themselves in to things like pride month when they are, for example, just asexual, which really hasn't subjected people to that much discrimination throughout history.
00:09:57.640 Aside from maybe them being obligated to have sex in some relationships and they're not that into it, which I don't know, I'm not too worried about.
00:10:04.820 Or poly, maybe that's just trying to get into that, to say, like, I want to be proud about something about myself culturally, something about my people and my tribe.
00:10:13.460 And I also think that, like, I don't know, of the people I know who are asexual, who are poly, they are overwhelmingly white, overwhelmingly on the wealthier and more educated end of the spectrum.
00:10:23.380 So I do see that because I don't think also, especially white, wealthy and educated people are allowed that much to even have pride in, for example, like being graduates of the school they graduated from, which in the past used to be huge, right?
00:10:38.880 Yeah, because that's a sign of status.
00:10:40.360 So it would, of course, be seen as a negative thing to show pride in because it would be like class status.
00:10:45.120 Well, aspirational status.
00:10:46.880 If you have victimhood status, then it's fine.
00:10:48.880 You know, you have to be the adventurous, enlightened, educated victim or the outgoing victim, something like that.
00:10:58.740 Well, the victim tag is necessary if you want to be, I guess, palatable from a public relations standpoint, which is why that was such a good South Park joke.
00:11:07.240 Well, and I think that this is something that you point out where when we talk about this as a cultural group that's really selling us pride, we mean this quite literally to the extent, and I think we mentioned this in other podcasts, that we would count by their community's rules as LGBT, both of us, because we would both at least be agender, which is a form of genderqueer, which is a form of trans.
00:11:30.540 And I was talking to some progressive friends, and they go, agender isn't a form of genderqueer, and it's like, yes, it is.
00:11:36.640 It's defined that way by most of the major LGBT organizations.
00:11:40.260 If you don't believe me, just go Google definitions of genderqueer that are found on these organizations' websites, and agender will clearly be under the definition.
00:11:51.600 And when I say agender, it doesn't really matter to me that I'm a guy.
00:11:54.780 Like, if I woke up tomorrow and I was a woman, I'd be like, fine, I'll find a way to make this work.
00:11:59.800 I'm gay, but I'd find a way to make it work.
00:12:03.800 And Simone feels the same way.
00:12:06.180 So what we mean by that is, even us within the community, we could just say, we are LGBT, but I don't identify with that community. 0.98
00:12:15.960 And because of that, I am not.
00:12:17.540 I do not think that the correct way to deal with not having a strong attachment, like really caring that much that I'm a guy,
00:12:25.700 I don't think the way to deal with that is to incorporate that into a major aspect of my identity,
00:12:31.800 and then say, okay, well, these are my people now, and this is my thing now.
00:12:35.760 To be more pointed, our gender identity is about as important to our actual identity as our favorite color is.
00:12:43.320 It just doesn't matter that much.
00:12:46.360 In the future, we're going to do a video on the difference between supporting people who are, for example, same-sex attracted,
00:12:55.800 and supporting people who adapt the gay identity and gay lifestyle.
00:13:02.320 We believe both of these things should be done, but they are two very different things,
00:13:07.940 and it is possible to support the gay identity while being terribly oppressive to same-sex attracted people
00:13:15.740 who choose different lifestyles for themselves, for example, heterosexual marriage,
00:13:22.040 because they choose to stay within a traditional faith or a traditional culture,
00:13:27.300 because you tell them, well, you don't get to adopt any same-sex attracted identity unless you live this very specific lifestyle.
00:13:35.300 So because of the way you're born, our cultural group gets dominion over the rest of your life
00:13:42.340 and is the only correct way to live that life.
00:13:45.640 You no longer get to choose your culture or identity because of the way you were born.
00:13:52.980 And I think it's really important to both support the LGBT community and gay people living within that cultural lifestyle
00:14:03.640 and same-sex attracted people or gender dimorphic people who choose other cultural responses to something that they had no control over.
00:14:16.080 And so I mention all this just to show how expansive it is.
00:14:19.740 The more you learn about all of the different gender identities, whether it's demisexual or etc.,
00:14:26.300 you will see that just about anyone can find a way to identify as LGBT these days,
00:14:31.940 even if you don't choose what most people would think of as a really non-normative gender or sexual attraction.
00:14:39.280 Now, another area where I think it's really interesting is as the community expands,
00:14:43.280 expanding to the poly community, also it's been expanding into the kink community,
00:14:46.940 with people of the kink community now identifying as...
00:14:49.660 And this is a community where you might get shame if you mention this stuff at the office,
00:14:54.280 but I really don't think they're discriminated against the group in the traditional context.
00:14:58.960 And it is interesting that you see within the Pride events, within the existing LGBT Pride events,
00:15:07.440 Pride is so much more important to their cultural message and sales pitch than it is to other minority cultures. 0.93
00:15:18.460 Or I could be wrong here.
00:15:19.680 Like, do you think that's accurate, Simone?
00:15:21.940 It's really hard to say.
00:15:23.320 I do think it's telling that of all the places where I've been in the world,
00:15:27.660 and I'm not saying I've been everywhere, but like I sort of...
00:15:30.880 You and I collectively have traveled decently throughout Europe and Asia, right?
00:15:34.940 That where we see Pride most, I guess, openly and enthusiastically celebrated is also where...
00:15:43.380 I don't know how to say this.
00:15:44.680 White culture is also super not cool to celebrate. 1.00
00:15:48.460 Like, I was just thinking about, like, where's the only other place where I've seen, like,
00:15:52.560 enthusiastic celebration of LGBT and even, like, sort of BDSM culture?
00:15:57.020 Can you guess?
00:15:58.620 I don't know.
00:15:59.660 Germany.
00:16:00.960 Like, big time.
00:16:01.240 Oh, interesting.
00:16:01.960 Yeah.
00:16:02.500 They do have bigger Pride events in other places.
00:16:05.060 Yeah.
00:16:05.440 And, like, also, like, just, like, bonded shops, like, much more, like, open.
00:16:09.640 And so I feel like that's more culturally celebrated.
00:16:12.280 Pride in coastal cities, in liberal areas is the strongest.
00:16:15.720 But I would also say that white Pride is strongest in the South.
00:16:19.260 In the South, like, you see, I mean, like, people are still flying, like, Confederate flags and whatnot.
00:16:23.680 There is actual more white Pride, and there's more resistance to not having white Pride.
00:16:29.080 And that, therefore, there's less, per our theory or model here, of a drive or demand to have alternate channels for Pride as a white person, if that makes sense.
00:16:41.800 Yeah, that makes sense.
00:16:42.340 Because when I think about, like, the best, like, gay Pride parades I've been to or drag shows or, like, events in general, San Francisco, obviously, D.C., Cape Cod, like, just the best.
00:16:52.980 Oh, yeah.
00:16:53.520 Those are definitely locations where you would have the highest amount of cultural shame.
00:16:57.560 Yeah, yeah.
00:16:58.700 Whereas, like, in the South, I don't think there's much reason.
00:17:01.440 Also, because I think there's a lot more, even if we're, like, you know, independent of Confederate stuff, like, there's still just a lot more.
00:17:07.100 There's the debutante balls.
00:17:08.400 There's, like, there's actual, like, sort of historical white culture. 0.88
00:17:12.920 Pride in, like, their religious groups often, which is. 0.99
00:17:14.980 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:17:15.400 There's more, like, proud to be a Baptist or whatever, whereas you don't get that in coastal cities.
00:17:19.240 So, like, because there are more outlets for a white middle to upper class or even, like, lower, like, impoverished even, like, there are lots of channels there.
00:17:29.280 And yet, yeah, in coastal cities and North, you really don't see that.
00:17:33.640 Hence, maybe more LGBT, et cetera, Pride.
00:17:37.440 I think there may be a tendency to dismiss this as being a sign of just how liberal an area is.
00:17:45.420 However, if you look at places like Cuba, you do not see large pride events.
00:17:53.400 In fact, gay marriage wasn't even legalized until 2022.
00:17:57.800 Well, I think that this is really interesting, that it is sort of white pride laundering. 0.74
00:18:04.620 In the same way, we're going to launder our white pride and have these big parades about it, but we're going to pretend it's not a white pride parade. 0.78
00:18:16.580 Oh, my God.
00:18:17.380 And after I had this realization, I'm never going to be able to see gay pride parades of anything else, just giant white pride parades of people who say that, oh, I'm not a white, I'm not, you know, pro.
00:18:29.580 Which is interesting because this isn't what the gay community used to be. 0.99
00:18:33.400 And I think that this is important to note, is that the gay community used to be people who were born gay and had to live their entire lives, like, really discriminated for this.
00:18:44.100 For sure. 0.82
00:18:44.300 Like, it was shitty to grow up being gay in, like, the 80s, right? 0.97
00:18:49.060 Or before. 0.97
00:18:49.840 But back then, the pride parades were a lot more timid, I think, than they are today.
00:18:55.580 Well, they certainly weren't, like, dominated like they are these days by, like, parade floats from Bank of America.
00:19:02.720 Right.
00:19:03.140 But I think that historically, if you were in the 80s and you went up and you said, I'm LGBT, right?
00:19:09.480 And yet, your form of sexuality or gender identity did not lead to you being significantly discriminated against, the community would have been like, that's a little offensive for you to say that.
00:19:23.720 If you were, like, agender or something like that.
00:19:25.960 Or, like, a demisexual. 0.95
00:19:27.280 Or you were something that, like, didn't mean that you had to live a lifestyle that caused you to constantly be attacked in the way that they were constantly attacked and victimized.
00:19:38.200 But the community has sort of been taken over to an extent by this cultural virus, which is expansive. 0.95
00:19:44.580 And now it's a cultural group.
00:19:46.120 It's no longer a, we were born this way and there's nothing we can do about it.
00:19:49.560 It's join us in this cultural group, which, yes, some of the people in this cultural group didn't choose it.
00:19:55.660 But a lot of people in this cultural group, this is an opt-in thing, like we were talking about was polyamory.
00:20:02.540 Yeah.
00:20:03.760 Well, and I guess also it's very easy to find one of these groups that you can identify with.
00:20:10.980 For example, in our sexuality research, we found that women aren't really that attracted, like, primarily to primary or secondary sex characteristics.
00:20:19.560 Like, not sexual body parts, but rather dominance and submission.
00:20:23.640 So that means that, like, you could argue, and this has shown up in other research, too, that the majority of women are sort of, by default, bisexual.
00:20:32.740 So instantly, like, you can opt into that.
00:20:34.920 I think the majority of women don't choose to identify as bisexual.
00:20:39.900 But, like, if you need that outlet, you can find it.
00:20:41.920 I think that's the most important part of this is that maybe...
00:20:45.640 And we now have a better understanding of how malleable our sexuality is because so many people are taking gender hormones. 0.98
00:20:53.100 And we now know that when you're on gender hormones, you have a 25% chance of changing the primary gender you're attracted to.
00:20:59.720 Oh, yeah.
00:21:00.000 Well, yeah.
00:21:00.300 And people describing once they go on testosterone or once they go on estrogen, just the extent to which they feel super different is meaningful.
00:21:07.280 Even me, I have hypothalamic amenorrhea.
00:21:10.680 I don't have periods on my own, meaning that I have to take, like, tons of estrogen to sort of, like, function normally as a female.
00:21:17.040 I can tell the difference.
00:21:18.460 And it's one of those things that really frustrates me.
00:21:20.700 Like, you're saying, pretty much the ASAP.
00:21:26.300 Malcolm, sorry.
00:21:27.120 You're going to have to start that over.
00:21:28.780 If you could start after just, like, right when you interrupted me, that would be good because that's where you broke up.
00:21:33.280 Uh, and you've talked with me about this as well, where you would say that normally you're pretty asexual or at least responsive sexual, where you can get turned on, but only if somebody is engaging you already.
00:21:46.700 Right.
00:21:47.160 But your sexuality becomes proactive when you're on all these hormones.
00:21:51.420 And you begin to feel active attraction, like, like, you want to jump me right then, which is something that you almost never experience when you're not on these hormones.
00:22:00.300 Which is why I think the critique that asexuals just have a hormone imbalance is not off, really.
00:22:06.700 But all of this stuff is so interesting that we have entered a society today where you can't say it's not a choice.
00:22:13.820 You can't say you were born this way.
00:22:16.020 That's offensive.
00:22:16.700 But you also can't say that some people aren't born this way.
00:22:19.180 That's offensive as well.
00:22:20.320 It's just interesting.
00:22:20.640 Well, and think about how offensive it is to say, like, if I were to walk up to an asexual and be like, oh, don't worry, you could just, like, medicate yourself out of this. 0.91
00:22:26.940 How offensive would that be, especially when you start to identify your sexual orientation with your personal identity?
00:22:35.800 That gets super dangerous.
00:22:37.020 And one of the first things that you indicate in The Pragmatist Guide to Sexuality, our book on human sexuality, is that your sexual orientation does not mean that you condone something morally or that you support something morally.
00:22:50.060 Like, if something turns you on, that doesn't mean you're okay with it or that it's part of your identity.
00:22:54.480 It's just something that turns you on.
00:22:56.200 And I think, furthermore, we need to recognize that the things that turn you on may change depending on either endogenous or exogenous hormones, meaning, like, hormones that are just happening either because of puberty or just general life or your gender, whatever, or hormones that you're taking or hormones that you're exposed to by the environment outside of your control, but, like, not intentional.
00:23:18.060 So I think it's really interesting.
00:23:20.060 And I guess it's dangerous, let's say, if indeed our theory is correct, if indeed LGBT, et cetera, pride is one form of white pride laundering.
00:23:31.780 And then people choose to identify as one of these categories because they want something to identify with it that they can be proud of.
00:23:39.320 They want to have a culture they can be proud of.
00:23:41.200 And they start to strongly identify with a sexual orientation that may ultimately shift over time because of their hormonal changes or, like, maybe doesn't really represent them or whatever.
00:23:49.940 I don't know. I think it's kind of dangerous. It would be much better for someone to build cultural pride around a culture or religion that they very logically and intentionally chose and didn't just fall into because of a hormonal balance or imbalance or, I don't know, approximate social group.
00:24:08.640 It's just it's a little frustrating, but it's very interesting nonetheless.
00:24:11.580 Yeah, well, and I think the one thing that's really disgusting, we talk about this laundering, is the recent change of the gay pride flag. 0.85
00:24:18.460 Like, if it turns out that this is actually psychologically what's going on, to include these stripes for, like, what is it?
00:24:27.220 Trans.
00:24:27.960 Brown and black. What's the word they use? It is... 0.98
00:24:31.580 BIPOC?
00:24:32.500 BIPOC. Okay, yeah, sorry.
00:24:33.840 So, with the flag now having the brown and black colors in it for BIPOC individuals, not even gender or sexuality, they're literally, like, wearing blackface to hide this white pride outlet. 0.87
00:24:48.480 Well, but wouldn't you say that's almost like a correction?
00:24:50.400 Could it almost be this subtle recognition that LGBT pride stuff was kind of white pride masquerading as other sexual identities?
00:25:00.560 And therefore, we have to throw in, hey, remember, white people can't have pride about anything. 0.53
00:25:06.640 Remember, don't be too right. That could be it. That's a charitable interpretation of what's going on there, and that could be it. 0.76
00:25:10.680 I don't know. That doesn't sound very charitable to me, unless you just want to accept the premise that white people are super evil no matter what. 0.98
00:25:17.640 Which, I don't know. 0.97
00:25:18.840 Well, and this comes to another thing. You were talking about people identifying with their sexuality, first and foremost.
00:25:24.940 This is why one of the... We've had such an easy time doing research in the sexuality space and, like, uncovering tons of new stuff in the practice.
00:25:30.420 Shooting fish in a barrel, right?
00:25:32.660 Well, it's shooting fish in a barrel because no real research has been done in the space in, like, 20 years.
00:25:36.300 And the reason is because people started basing their identities off of the state of the research 20 years ago.
00:25:42.280 And now, if you update the research, like, if the research finds new things, well, then you've undermined someone's identity, right?
00:25:50.160 So you can't update. It's now canon. It's now whatever the state of the field was 20 years ago, that's canon.
00:25:56.700 And even if it doesn't align with the actual data, which is one of the things that we point out in our book, is the concept of even gay and straight is probably not a really effective way of talking about sexual identity.
00:26:10.320 So by that, what we mean is it appears that even if you're just talking about, like, male or female, what do you prefer?
00:26:18.080 Well, it turns out that's not really the way those are grouped in the brain or in populations. 0.92
00:26:22.220 So it's pretty common to have a guy who is, I think it's about a third of guys or a quarter of guys in our studies, who finds the female, like, silhouette, like, general body image attractive, but it gets discussed or at least no attraction from a vagina.
00:26:40.120 And that is fascinating to me that it appears that there's sort of three categories here.
00:26:46.840 One is general body shape, which can go on a spectrum of male and female, and then with males and females attraction to disgust, not male to female, right?
00:26:57.580 Because you can be all the way attracted to both male and female body shapes or all the way disgusted by both male and female body shapes.
00:27:02.400 But then you have these separate metrics of one is secondary sex characteristics, and the other is primary sex characteristics.
00:27:09.280 And it's actually, while it does often happen that these things align, it doesn't happen enough that it makes sense that the predominant way we categorize sexuality is male to female attraction.
00:27:22.180 It's probably better to say arousal to disgust along, like, these 10 different metrics.
00:27:27.560 But, of course, that doesn't align with the state of the research when everybody started basing their identities off of their arousal patterns and gender proclivities.
00:27:36.940 It would be cool if we switched to that, though.
00:27:39.440 Like, if you could have sort of your, like, docket of, like, here are all the turn-ons, here are all the turn-offs for me.
00:27:45.200 I feel like people would find compatibility a lot easier to work out, but whatever.
00:27:49.520 That's a totally different can of worms.
00:27:51.540 Basically, the kid's scale is nonsense. 0.98
00:27:53.520 It's complete nonsense. 0.94
00:27:54.400 With this new model of LGBT as laundered white pride, do you view it any differently? 1.00
00:28:02.080 Like, I don't know what to make of it yet in my head.
00:28:04.080 Well, it's new to kindness.
00:28:05.480 It's not great to grow up feeling like your ethnic group is wretched and deplorable and, like, intrinsically, genetically, or culturally worse than all other groups.
00:28:19.400 And not everybody raises their kids believing this, but, you know, there definitely is a portion of the population that raises their kids believing this.
00:28:25.800 And I think that portion of the population's kids is the portion that is most likely to end up identifying as LGBT because there is nothing.
00:28:33.000 It's not a—I guess I don't see it as a bad thing, really, because it's better than these kids having nothing they can have pride in.
00:28:40.380 Especially if you buy this meme that there's just something intrinsically immoral about white people or whiteness, which exists within certain cultural groups, especially in the San Francisco, New York area.
00:28:56.200 Yeah.
00:28:57.740 Anyway, weird stuff.
00:28:59.060 Anyway, I love you so much, Simone.
00:29:01.600 I love you too, gorgeous.
00:29:02.480 And I love that we can have these spicy conversations.
00:29:04.760 This is one of these ones where I know I wouldn't be afraid to post it.
00:29:07.180 I love that you and I will be walking in a grocery store, picking up more milk for the kids, and this just comes out of nowhere.
00:29:13.740 So thank you for being that person.
00:29:15.840 No, it's funny because the moment I said it to you, I go, is LGBT white pride?
00:29:21.000 And you thought for a second, you go, oh, my God.
00:29:24.120 Well, no, I more, like, loudly said that in the middle of the dairy aisle.
00:29:27.660 But hopefully no one there knows us too well.
00:29:31.140 No, this is actually, when we talk about sexuality, one of those things where, like, we'll be talking to a trans friend about this.
00:29:36.040 We go, yeah, we do, we talk a lot of deviant stuff about sexuality on our show and on our, and they're like, oh, yeah, I'm part of the kink community too.
00:29:43.640 I'm trans too.
00:29:44.520 And I'm like, oh, no, like, I'm thinking in my head, no, when I'm deviant, like, the trans community doesn't like it.
00:29:50.120 Like, trans maxing alternate iterations. 1.00
00:29:54.160 Not in line with what conservatives think about sexuality, but definitely not in line with, like, the liberal consensus.
00:29:59.520 Such is our curse.
00:30:01.800 At any rate, love these conversations.
00:30:03.680 Can't wait to see what you come up with next time we're picking up milk.
00:30:06.500 So let's do it more frequently.
00:30:08.080 All right.
00:30:08.360 Have a good one.
00:30:09.280 You too, Malcolm.