Based Camp： Lizard People are Real and Simone is One of Them
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Summary
In this episode of the podcast, Dr. Aaron Sorken and his wife, Simone Sorkin, talk about their daughter Simone, who was diagnosed with Asperger s at the age of 4 years old. They talk about the impact of autism on Simone's life, and how it may have shaped her into the person she is today.
Transcript
00:00:00.000
When I first met her for a long time, she really hates touching people, just hates it.
00:00:04.540
And so early on, she would even wear gloves when we go in public.
00:00:08.080
So she didn't have to actually touch anyone's hands.
00:00:11.940
She will sit and wait at a door for like eight minutes for me to open it for her because
00:00:15.380
she hates touching door handles, knowing that a lot of other people have touched these door
00:00:24.100
She likes, you know, ceremony in her daily life, like doing very structured things.
00:00:29.220
This sounds a lot like court culture in medieval Europe.
00:00:33.900
You know, having to wear gloves before you touch people, standing at doors.
00:00:37.760
There's even accounts of nobles like standing at a door for 30 minutes because there wasn't
00:00:42.140
the servant who was supposed to be there to open the door for them.
00:00:44.840
And then the intense ceremonies and very specific things you had to do throughout the day and
00:00:49.940
the ways you had to interact with people, even the not looking them in the eyes thing.
00:00:54.000
So much of it sounds like they've tried to create this little autistic paradise for themselves.
00:00:59.220
Or at least similar to how autism is manifest in my wife.
00:01:08.380
Simone, I have heard this conspiracy theory that lizard people control our society.
00:01:15.880
Now, when they say this, what they mean is there's a group of people who are like humans,
00:01:21.440
you know, humanoid, but a little different, maybe less emotional than other humans,
00:01:30.100
And the funny thing is, is we actually had a chapter we removed from our book on this subject
00:01:36.440
saying that it might be true, but not in the way that the conspiracy theorists make.
00:01:44.840
There was an organization that I worked with for a while that I really like that would gather very
00:01:51.900
Like their criteria for membership was you have to be the best in your field in order to qualify
00:01:58.820
So this is bringing together the top tech CEOs, diplomats, politicians, writers, journalists,
00:02:05.000
activists, artists, et cetera, to have off the record conversations.
00:02:10.480
And the funny thing about it is that it was very much a series of retreats really designed for
00:02:16.820
autistic people where, you know, you're sitting, you know, every moment of the day is scheduled.
00:02:21.080
When you sit down for a conversation with people, the subject is chosen.
00:02:26.780
And there's one moderator that is making sure the conversation, you know, stays on track and
00:02:34.500
There's no stress about, okay, where do I need to be?
00:02:40.040
It's like, I love it personally because I'm autistic and I love like the structure and the
00:02:51.840
But I think it's telling what's telling about it.
00:02:55.380
Disproportionately, the elite cast in our society is on the spectrum already.
00:02:59.980
Even if they don't admit it, that like that this kind of format would appeal disproportionately
00:03:04.520
to the top performers in their respective fields.
00:03:11.900
I can look at Mark Zuckerberg on a stage trying to give a speech.
00:03:14.920
And I'm like, oh, that guy is obviously on the spectrum.
00:03:17.880
Elon Musk has admitted to being diagnosed with Asperger's, which now doesn't exist as a diagnosis
00:03:24.460
Just in case people aren't familiar, the reason why the diagnosis of Asperger's doesn't exist
00:03:28.240
anymore is because it used to be autistic, but high IQ and successful.
00:03:35.640
Like imagine if there was like dyslexic and then dyslexic, but successful.
00:03:40.080
Well, then everybody who is labeled dyslexic, that's labeling you as also unsuccessful.
00:03:45.660
So everyone's going to assume that you're like barely functional if you're dyslexic.
00:03:49.200
So it is really unfair that you would ever carve off the successful people from a diagnosis.
00:03:55.000
So, or high IQ at least, you know, and that's what we were seeing was that.
00:03:59.080
So historically, Simone would have been diagnosed as Asperger's, but today she'd be diagnosed
00:04:03.280
But anyway, and I think this is where we got that negative stigma for autistic with the
00:04:08.560
older generation, but you know, you can look at so many of these high profile, you know,
00:04:12.960
super wealthy billionaires talk and you're just like, oh gosh, like if you've been around
00:04:16.200
a lot of people on the spectrum, you're like, these people are obviously on the spectrum.
00:04:19.280
But what I find most fascinating about this theory is that this may not be a new phenomenon.
00:04:27.800
So let's look at some of the ways that Simone is weird in her autism.
00:04:31.960
When I first met her for a long time, she really hates touching people, just hates it.
00:04:36.700
And so early on, she would even wear gloves when we go in public.
00:04:40.260
So she didn't have to actually touch anyone's hands.
00:04:44.100
She will sit and wait at a door for like eight minutes for me to open it for her because
00:04:47.560
she hates touching door handles, knowing that a lot of other people have touched these
00:04:55.920
She likes, you know, ceremony in her daily life, like doing very structured things.
00:05:01.640
This sounds a lot like court culture in medieval Europe.
00:05:06.000
You know, having to wear gloves before you touch people, standing at doors.
00:05:09.920
There's even accounts of nobles like standing at a door for 30 minutes because there wasn't
00:05:14.320
the servant who was supposed to be there to open the door for them.
00:05:16.940
And then the intense ceremonies and very specific things you had to do throughout the day and
00:05:23.300
Even the not looking them in the eyes thing, so much of it sounds like they've tried to
00:05:29.200
create this little autistic paradise for themselves, or at least similar to how autism is manifest
00:05:41.660
So here's where this whole theory gets a lot more interesting, which is, does that mean
00:05:48.880
that if it is true that people who are running these major tech companies are more likely
00:05:53.860
to be autistic, do you think that means that they can't relate to the general population
00:05:57.660
And they're trying to push things that maybe the general population wouldn't like?
00:06:01.400
Like, is there genuine merit to this lizard person accusation where if these people are
00:06:06.980
different, does that mean they can't understand people?
00:06:10.220
So I've heard this critique from people also who have worked in very senior roles in Silicon
00:06:17.060
Like, I've heard this critique of, oh, these people who are completely tone deaf, who don't
00:06:23.500
know how to relate to other people, are here so confident that they're making solutions for
00:06:29.340
the rest of society when they can't even begin to model the rest of society.
00:06:33.320
And I try to come in and I try to explain these things to them and they just look at me blankly
00:06:38.200
and just do what they were going to do because they either don't get it or don't care.
00:06:43.020
And, you know, I hear that argument and I'm just thinking, well, you're wrong.
00:06:47.960
Like, these people are doing what's optimal and like, I don't know.
00:06:51.900
It's like, no, you don't know what's best for you.
00:06:55.640
I'm like, well, these are the mentats of society.
00:06:58.740
They are calculating and they are making the correct decision.
00:07:04.840
But also, like, I know that I'm biased and like, if I am also one of these supposed lizard
00:07:09.540
people or is they just saw these like autistic, non-empathetic people who can't possibly understand
00:07:16.160
what it's like to not be one of those people, then of course, I would say that.
00:07:21.860
You're more on the non-autistic neuro atypical end of the spectrum.
00:07:30.180
Like, are these people wrong to be running society?
00:07:32.780
Are they and would society be better if run by people who are like, I don't know, more
00:07:45.540
I mean, I do think whenever you get a subgroup of the population that's disproportionately represented
00:07:49.680
in positions of power, that leads to negative consequences often.
00:07:54.240
However, if there was a population that was going to be differentially selected, I can
00:08:02.360
And this is, of course, a highly criticized view that, you know, these people built these
00:08:10.100
They made it, obviously, like, if you think you, whoever it is you are with your worldview,
00:08:16.360
are so good and so perfect at running things, why are you apparently incapable of building
00:08:23.940
Like, if you can make it, like, you know, do it then.
00:08:32.200
Because the lizard people are now lecturing you.
00:08:41.220
Because, you know, I guess, you know, an outsider that I'm very poorly trying to model, and I
00:08:46.080
admit that I'm not very good at this, would be like, oh, systemic bias.
00:08:50.140
And, you know, I've been kept down and I'm not given a place in the room.
00:08:54.280
But I also don't feel like awkward autistic people are given a place.
00:08:58.580
Oh, another thing I've heard, which I think is really interesting, is they're like,
00:09:02.900
Also, these are all very sad autistic people who were bullied throughout their childhoods
00:09:15.200
Their revenge fantasy upon society with these startups, which I also think is really interesting.
00:09:20.100
Because I genuinely, my understanding of life as an autistic person, and my understanding
00:09:25.240
of other autistic people, is they, like, legit don't care, really, about, like,
00:09:32.860
Like, I remember as a kid, like, people saying stuff to me that I just didn't, like, that kind
00:09:38.740
of went over my head, and then getting in really big trouble, and, like, you know, being, like,
00:09:47.140
So the way you said that was a little confusing, I think.
00:09:49.840
What she means is people would be making fun of her, didn't realize they were making fun of her,
00:09:57.420
But then I would know that they had done it because they got punished for it.
00:10:00.920
Yeah, for the context of the way the adults reacted to it, it was clear that they had
00:10:05.500
Yeah, and so that's, so my experience as an autistic person, I mean, I didn't know that
00:10:12.800
But anyway, like, my experience is such that I don't even think that these people are bullied
00:10:17.340
in the way that the socially empathic people think that they were.
00:10:23.880
Like, they legit don't care what these people think.
00:10:28.020
And I think it's interesting that these, well, we'll just say the empaths, right?
00:10:31.780
Like, the socially, like, good people or whatever, the non-lizard people, are, like, they're
00:10:38.020
modeling the lizard people as though the lizard people were empaths, but just evil.
00:10:47.000
Like, whereas, like, instead, they're, like, legit more, like, like, mentats, just like,
00:10:52.780
And then they do it really well, maybe because they're not tied down by all this empathetic
00:10:59.100
Like, they just want to, like, build my computer thing, whatever, right?
00:11:04.320
And I, like, I wish I must find an opportunity when I find someone making this critique again
00:11:09.200
to ask them, okay, like, what do you want the lizard people to do?
00:11:15.680
Like, what do you want these tech bros who are, like, running the world to do differently
00:11:21.360
aside from, and the only answer I've heard so far, and please, someone correct me in
00:11:26.460
the comments here, is, well, they should give my group more power, which, it just doesn't
00:11:38.820
Like, I want to hear what you would do with that power then.
00:11:41.360
Like, what would you do once you have that power?
00:11:42.800
Because the thing I hear after that is, well, I would put more of my people in power.
00:11:46.480
And then I'm just like, like, this isn't going anywhere.
00:11:49.600
This just sounds like I just want more people like me in positions of power, in which case
00:11:53.160
my answer would be, okay, build the next thing and own it.
00:12:00.100
I do have another place to go with this, which is, if this is a problem right now, it's a
00:12:06.380
problem that is likely going to get bigger in the future.
00:12:09.700
With autistic people having, in a world of technology, the autist is king.
00:12:15.860
And in a world of work from home, this is something that we've really seen, you know,
00:12:19.900
is that our own family, since we started predominantly working at home, is your productivity
00:12:24.700
differential to my productivity has gone up astronomically more.
00:12:29.620
Not having to have other people interfering with your daily routines has really just made
00:12:38.000
And I really like the analogy that was made about what it's like to be autistic that I
00:12:43.860
want to share with the audience here, because I think it's a really powerful one.
00:12:47.160
It's as if you are a race car that is optimized for a race car track.
00:12:55.920
And so if you try to live like normal life, like you try to go on normal roads or worse,
00:13:02.520
go off-roading, like have your schedule disrupted, you perform astronomically worse than other cars.
00:13:08.800
But when you are able to control your entire routine from top to bottom, when it's a
00:13:17.060
perfect track and you have a pit crew, which is, I guess, me, you're like the handler, basically,
00:13:25.880
And I mean, this is somebody, you know, I work with my wife, so I work with a lot of other
00:13:31.200
I have never worked with somebody who can output anywhere close to you, Simone.
00:13:40.200
And the core reason is because, and I don't know what this is about you, but you don't take
00:13:45.700
breaks, like you are able to consistently work for like a five hour period, even when you're
00:13:52.300
not like off the chain, passionate about something.
00:13:57.440
Realistically, I can work for like 30 minutes and then I take like a two hour break and then
00:14:01.500
I work for 30 minutes and then I take like a two hour break.
00:14:04.120
I mean, I'm not trying to do, unless I'm just like really passionate about something and
00:14:14.360
I think, yeah, what, when, what I saw too of parents, we know who have autistic children
00:14:22.960
But when I hear about parents whose autistic kids are going through what we call the industrial
00:14:26.920
school system, you know, either like public or private schools, but where they're taught
00:14:30.120
by teachers and they're being forced taught instead of self-taught, they just thrived during
00:14:36.400
the pandemic when they got to direct their own education, work from home, not sit around peers,
00:14:43.100
So I agree with you that especially like as more parents are shifting their children to
00:14:47.600
work from home and as more businesses are shifting to work from home, it's, I think
00:14:51.500
it's really going to give autistic people a leg up.
00:14:54.020
I also think that a lot of like internet communities and cultures, and we've talked about this in
00:14:59.400
the past, like 4chan being the male autistic id online and Tumblr, and it's now diaspora being
00:15:07.020
That like autistic people have very much been empowered online.
00:15:10.580
And that maybe that means that autistic people will also be able to form relationships and
00:15:16.040
have kids at higher rates than they did in the past.
00:15:18.420
Maybe meaning that we'll see more autistic people.
00:15:20.660
Well, I think that this is also worth double clicking on what you were saying right there
00:15:24.060
is people are like, oh, it's only the elite in our society who are top down enforcing autistic
00:15:32.220
I mean, 4chan is the creator of most online culture, whether you're talking about MAGA
00:15:38.260
or bronies or, you know, the, what's that foundation where they capture the, like spooky
00:15:45.620
Anyway, there's so much of online culture, so many meme formats, you know, Pepe, et cetera.
00:15:50.280
All of this is coming from 4chan and this is the space that self-admitted has a higher than
00:15:58.260
normal autistic population to majority autistic population.
00:16:03.020
And then you can look at the progressive memes that have taken over the progressive meme
00:16:08.520
A lot of these came from Tumblr culture and Tumblr was self-professed again, really heavily
00:16:15.380
autistic, especially back in the day that when all of these things were really bubbling
00:16:20.940
And so why is it that these autistic spaces are generating the culture that ends up dominating
00:16:29.360
the rest of our society, both bubbling up from the bottom and being enforced from the
00:16:36.880
I think what you said is right, is that it is this ability to thrive within an online environment.
00:16:43.720
And when we said that historically, you know, we were talking about at least high performing
00:16:51.520
autistic problems, it was more that we were forcing them to live in an environment that
00:16:58.540
was not conducive to like the level of, self-care is the wrong word, self-tuning they needed to
00:17:06.720
And that's what, when you see autistic people do the things that we often associate with autism,
00:17:12.080
These behaviors are happening when we're forcing them into environments where they're not-
00:17:19.300
And this was one of the things when we're creating the Collins Institute, which is our
00:17:22.300
school system that we really focused on is how do we create a school system that knowing
00:17:26.800
what you went through and that you almost ended up dying in the traditional public school
00:17:31.380
How do we help our kids not have to go through that and help other people who think like you
00:17:39.880
So that's something we've really tried to build into it.
00:17:45.120
Well, and then there's the phenomenon that may or may not be there of autistic people now
00:17:51.560
coalescing in certain zones, like around Silicon Valley, because it seems to select for more
00:18:01.460
So, you know, yeah, I mean, it does seem like we're moving in a direction of, if not
00:18:07.620
numerically, at least in terms of influence and reach, autistic people are gaining influence.
00:18:13.680
Though, again, and we're not super invested in this theory, but it does seem like maybe
00:18:18.360
autistic people in the past also were disproportionately represented in leadership.
00:18:22.540
So like, maybe this isn't always thing, but it also seems to be an increasing thing, wouldn't
00:18:28.540
So you could say not gaining influence, but consolidating influence.
00:18:32.260
And I love having you here to talk about this, because this is one of those things that
00:18:36.180
I could have noticed, but if I didn't have an autistic wife, I would never, I probably
00:18:40.640
I'm that level of stupidly walking through third rails.
00:18:43.720
No, but I also, I don't think you would have noticed these subtler patterns if you hadn't
00:18:49.100
I didn't really understand autism before looking at how you're weird and being like, oh, that's
00:18:55.420
And again, we should clarify, not like self-diagnosed autistic.
00:18:58.220
Our kids and her have been diagnosed, you know, by medical professionals and everything.
00:19:03.120
Well, and yeah, that's also not to say that like my autistic experience represents everyone's
00:19:11.660
Yeah, you're the hot autistic woman, which is quite a find.
00:19:16.780
I'm telling all the guys here, being married to a autistic woman makes things much easier
00:19:23.820
because, okay, yes, she has a lot of rules, but the rules are consistent.
00:19:36.520
I'm not unpleasant looking and I'm not like a model, but I would say that like, I also
00:19:41.880
think that among hot, but also very smart and competent women, autism, mostly undiagnosed
00:19:50.140
would be like way overrepresented, way overrepresented.
00:19:55.600
And that would mean it's a sign of genetic fitness because signs of genetic fitness often
00:20:00.440
Like the more attractive somebody is, the higher IQ they're likely to be, the taller they're
00:20:04.300
likely to be, the more susceptible their face is likely to be.
00:20:07.180
You typically see any sign of genetic fitness correlating with other signs of genetic fitness.
00:20:11.820
If that's the case, then all you're saying is autism is genetically optimal.
00:20:18.620
And I think this is a really interesting theory that you have, or that I guess many people
00:20:21.960
have, but you were the one who introduced me to it of that things, the traits like autism
00:20:26.780
or it's like disorders like autism or schizophrenia managed to persist in people's genetic lines
00:20:37.260
Like in moderation, someone who's more on the schizophrenic end is useful because they
00:20:41.000
model people really well on the autistic and are useful in a society because they, you
00:20:46.700
Well, this is something you can be fairly sure of given how quickly sociological profiles
00:20:51.780
You see a trait and it is common across all cultures, especially if you know that it's not
00:20:57.220
something that's being selected for because it's associated with something else.
00:21:01.340
So something that's really cool when you talk about like intelligence and autism and
00:21:06.100
the genetic component of this is that Simone, you know, compared to me, if you look at her
00:21:11.000
genes, she should only be about a half a standard deviation above the general population in terms
00:21:16.180
of her IQ, which is something when I'm talking about her being really productive, where she
00:21:21.120
is off the charts genetically at the 99th percentile is in systematizing, which is a common trait
00:21:29.920
So I wonder if that is specifically the systematizing, what's giving you this advantage.
00:21:37.020
I wonder too, I think there's something really interesting going on there and might explain
00:21:41.260
why autism is like seemingly disproportionately associated with people who are like inventors
00:21:48.680
or scientists like Darwin or Zuckerberg, if he is autistic, that kind of thing.
00:21:54.000
And that like, these are people who have this deep desire to organize in their minds logistically
00:22:03.900
I mean, keep in mind that like Facebook started out as like a ranking kind of thing, like a
00:22:09.900
Well, and I remember something that the general population didn't know is you did a, when you
00:22:14.460
were getting diagnosed with autistic, they did like a IQ test on you and you got in the
00:22:22.200
So you are outperforming people even within IQ tests, even though you don't have this,
00:22:27.000
the genetic role of the dice there that's giving you an advantage.
00:22:29.840
So it must be the systematizing or it could just be that none of genes matter.
00:22:35.000
Wouldn't that make our detractors so happy if it turns out genes don't matter?
00:22:41.900
You know, what we care about is outcomes and not what shows up on paper or tests.
00:22:47.940
So I don't care if someone has the highest IQ in the world, if they're not doing, if
00:22:52.760
they're not making a meaningful impact on the world vis-a-vis their values, or if they
00:22:56.060
haven't thought through their values, like zero respect for them versus someone who's
00:22:59.700
like tech technically, you know, super low IQ, but they do something meaningful with their
00:23:09.640
I mean, I don't even think so because I think that intelligence and the various pieces of
00:23:14.320
baggage, it's same with beauty that come with it can be just as much of a hindrance as it
00:23:19.300
can be a help that, you know, there are many people who are super intelligent who may like
00:23:23.400
overthink things, who may be bogged down by their...
00:23:26.460
I think that's an excuse the mentally lazy used.
00:23:29.520
Well, Simone, I am so lucky that I found an autistic woman to marry.
00:23:36.040
I'm so glad that you deal with me, that you don't look at me like I'm crazy when I attempt
00:23:42.680
to open doors with my butts in an elbow all the time and freak out and just stand in front
00:23:51.500
And all the other things, all the other things.
00:23:59.700
Yeah, you never get upset about something I can't predict.