In this episode, Simone and I discuss our theories on how emotions work, and how to get over them. We also talk about our theories about how humor works, and why you should be trying to be funnier than you actually are.
00:01:38.140And I think that there's two other types of humor that exist where comedians sometimes get trapped with them, but they're not actual humor.
00:01:45.880One is a I'm scared response, which is really bad.
00:01:50.760But like a lot of you get in and really like tense situations where like you are socially scared or like actually threatened and like laughing to deescalate to be like, I'm not threatening.
00:02:01.460One, you see this in children, but in adults as well.
00:02:05.100And I think a lot of comedians, they'll build these routines that are really like emotionally cringe because they see people laughing at them.
00:02:11.860But that is not that is not like a pleasant laughter.
00:02:16.020I think for most people who experience it, obviously, the human experience is really broad and these comedians are appealing to somebody.
00:02:22.040And one is somebody is breaking social norms and you are lacking because you're kind of threatened by the fact.
00:02:28.200Yeah, where it creates tension and people are breaking social norms.
00:02:31.380So this other type of humor is one where you will be much more likely to laugh at almost anything somebody says if you're attracted to them.
00:02:38.780So if you are attracted or aroused by somebody, you will just laugh at anything they say sometimes.
00:02:44.380And this is to, I guess, convince them.
00:02:47.160One of my favorite studies on this showed that both women and men said they appreciated a sense of humor in a partner.
00:02:52.600But for women, what that meant is that the person could make them laugh.
00:02:56.880But what the men meant by this is that the person laughed at their jokes.
00:03:07.220Anyway, but so the main type of humor, the type that you should be aiming for as a comedian is this makes sense.
00:03:14.500Within the context that has been built for me.
00:03:17.020So in a fictional world, you can build a fictional world where things deviate along certain lines.
00:03:24.300An example here would be like SpongeBob SquarePants, right?
00:03:26.440Like that's a somewhat consistent fictional world with rules, right?
00:03:30.820And so something can make sense in that fictional context but still be very surprising to you and thus cause you to laugh.
00:03:38.200Like you're like, oh, I didn't expect that, but it makes sense.
00:03:41.280And these are the best types of humor with this.
00:03:44.740It's humor where it's like an idea you're not supposed to think.
00:03:47.380And that's why it was surprising to you where you're like, oh, oh my God, what?
00:03:51.800So yeah, all the cancelable Netflix slash HBO comedy specials that involve like people shitting a brick because someone says stuff they're not supposed to say.
00:04:01.080It's humor that's surprising, but it makes sense because it's something that you're not allowed to say, but it's kind of true.
00:04:08.020And that's where that kind of humor comes from.
00:04:10.020Then there's like words in context, but you're not supposed to say that.
00:04:26.520It's especially funny if it really makes sense for a character.
00:04:29.160So you can also do this with a character where a character is in a situation where you think, oh, there's a generic way that people respond in this situation.
00:04:39.500But this character then responds in a different way that is surprising, but makes sense given the priors they've set up around that character.
00:04:47.720Well, and then there's the word based ones.
00:04:49.200Like a lot of dad jokes are like word puns.
00:04:51.660Like, oh, how do you know it's a dad joke?
00:05:15.300And there's another type of humor that I particularly like in which it's more like a narrative based humor where a comedian will describe something even pretty mundane in life,
00:05:25.200but just using words that are not the typical words used to describe it.
00:05:28.560A really good example of this is describing snakes as danger noodles.
00:05:56.380Yeah, like he spells hormones, W-H-O-R-E-M-O-E-N-S.
00:06:00.080And it's funny because it's surprising, but it makes sense.
00:06:02.720Well, it makes sense given the character that he has set up for himself in books and how much of this is his actual character or not, I don't know.
00:06:29.000Any other areas you want to touch on on humor?
00:06:31.500No, but I would love to hear other people's theories.
00:06:35.200If you think that this is like, next time you watch something that you think is funny or something like that, watch for these different types of humors.
00:06:43.340And personally, something to always be vigilant was, especially if you're a guy while you're flirting, is there a big difference if somebody laughing because they're aroused, laughing because you're in this one, like, good type of humor, and laughing because they're terrified of you?
00:07:00.080Yeah, because like, so some people say, okay, well, men and sometimes women have a fight or flight response when very threatened, but women may also have a tend or befriend response.
00:07:10.500And I know that for sure, when I am in pain, I am smiling and laughing.
00:07:14.660When I'm terrified, I am smiling and laughing.
00:07:17.460So, yeah, that is a really important point to bring up, Malcolm.
00:07:34.040Side note, how and why did humor evolve?
00:07:36.580So I think our kids offer a great example of this because this is where I really came up with the theory was in interacting with our kids and seeing that when I did something that was surprising and made sense, you know, the kids would start to laugh.
00:07:49.440And my theory here is that the laughing that the kids are doing is saying to the adult, what you just did has almost clicked for me, but it hasn't totally clicked yet.
00:08:02.180It sort of makes sense, but it's still surprising in context.
00:08:06.700So I'm giving you this positive reward mechanism, e.g. seeing me laugh, so that you repeat what you just did until it stops being funny or, you know, in the case of kids, it's no longer surprising.
00:08:20.640Then the question is, okay, then why did it continue to adults?
00:08:23.320And one of the things we always say is evolution is a cheap programmer.
00:08:25.620And I suspect here that the reason why this didn't end in adults, probably similar to, like, lactose intolerance, you know, that's something that was supposed to be edited out of adults, but then, you know, within certain populations stayed in adults and it kept in the adult population.
00:08:39.280Um, is that this not stopping laughing thing was actually a courtship ritual where, uh, it probably started primarily women to men, given the other things we talked about, where a woman would laugh at something the guy had just done, which was basically a sign to the guy, oh, do that again.
00:08:58.300In the same way that kids would do it again.
00:09:00.380So they were hijacking the pre-existing parental system to get the guy to redo specific behavior.
00:09:08.940Um, and it increased the bonds of the relationship more quickly, which led to more efficient courtship rituals.
00:09:14.960How about let, let's talk about offense.
00:09:26.140So we think offense is so delicious and so wonderful and so important to lean into because it is a sign that an idea credibly threatens your worldview.
00:09:37.080So for example, people often think an offensive thing is just an insulting thing or just a repugnant thing, which is not true.
00:09:44.220For example, if somebody called me, um, a fat cow, I would be like, not offended at all because I can tell like from my weight, from my BMI, I am technically not fat.
00:09:53.980However, if someone called me ugly, I would be offended because I kind of know that I'm ugly.
00:10:01.480So you are not ugly, but because you're my husband, you're so perfect.
00:10:05.140Even in a world in which I wasn't ugly, although my face is technically deformed, so I am technically ugly and I have acne and all these other things.
00:10:14.760I'm still, I just covered it up with makeup.
00:10:18.360I was like, I was like, I can't deal with serious on camera.
00:10:20.840Anyway, I would still, I am, I am female and it is cultural tradition to think that you're ugly as a female.
00:10:25.360So anyway, if someone said that to me, it would be offensive because it threatens my worldview that I would like to think of myself as someone attractive because I am very vain.
00:10:34.420And yet I kind of know that's not true.
00:10:37.860So like that's offense and why offense is so important is we strongly believe from our, our value set that if you are wrong, you should, you should change your mind.
00:10:49.500And, and things are only offensive if you kind of in the back of your mind are like, you're not sure that it's totally wrong.
00:10:57.300And this is especially to his ideologies.
00:10:58.940So ideologies are particularly offensive.
00:11:01.380Yeah. Like if you're a climate change believer and someone's like climate change is a hoax, that's very offensive.
00:11:07.620If you think of them, they're stupid or just like out, but if it generates that offense emotion in you, then it means there's likely something there that you're afraid of engaging with.
00:11:19.340And afraid is the wrong word that you are reflexively protecting yourself against engaging with.
00:11:25.720That is what the offense emotion does.
00:11:28.180And some cultures really prey on this where they create this mindset in people because different cultures, they spread like a sort of mimetic viruses.
00:11:37.460And some, obviously these viruses, like once they've infected a person, one of the ways they prevent other cultures or mimetic sets for coming in and displacing them.
00:11:46.900Is they train the person and recondition the person to see all offense as violence or much more threatening than it is to them so that they do not engage with any idea that might be offensive to them.
00:12:00.900Where offense in this context really just mean threatening to the virus, capable of dislodging the virus.
00:12:07.940And so you'll get these entire communities that are based around protecting oneself.
00:12:21.460But then the entire community that's infected with this virus just won't engage with any content that person is producing because that's even better.
00:12:29.340Like once the virus says, okay, if somebody does something that's offensive to anyone within our community, we know they might be capable of dislodging the virus from any other individual in the community.
00:12:38.160And therefore we need to train our community to not engage with it.
00:12:43.120I'm creating an intergenerationally durable culture for my kids.
00:12:45.940I want it to survive because it's the best.
00:12:49.640I don't want it to survive because it prevented them from engaging with any other idea.
00:12:56.400And, and, and again, this is something you see with, with everything from ultra, ultra progressive community to some like religious cults, right?
00:13:04.680This idea of don't engage with anything that offends any member of our community.
00:13:07.840Now, after offense, a great emotion is anger.
00:13:10.760Do you want to go into what causes anger in people?
00:13:29.060No, you're the one who can miraculously and amazingly like think things through five steps ahead.
00:13:34.640Whereas I'm like barely even with the current step.
00:13:38.840But anyway, your theory for anger, and I definitely think this, this aligns.
00:13:42.240And it also aligns well with the other models is people become angry when they are not treated in line with their expectations.
00:13:48.840And this can be, at first I was like, I don't really understand this because I don't really expect anyone to treat me a certain way because I kind of just don't trust or like anyone.
00:13:59.620I just assume people are going to be complete bastards.
00:14:20.420It's when I'm at a hospital and they're not doing the scan that I want because there's, there's some weird thing that like didn't get filled out that is exactly for the requirements and my insurance isn't paying for it the right way or something like that.
00:14:31.500And these are all the times that I have cried with rage.
00:14:34.340And it is because I, I don't believe systems should be so massively inefficient.
00:14:39.900And I think that systems should treat humans in a different and more efficient way.
00:14:43.380So even then it's not just people not treating you in the way they do expect.
00:14:48.160It could be even life circumstances, not treating you.
00:15:15.480And they get angrier and angrier every time it doesn't go right, which it can affect some more and they get angrier still.
00:15:21.440But where this sort of anger can become really problematic is when you have a society in which there are mismatched expectations.
00:15:30.480So one place this gets really toxic is in relationships.
00:15:33.500When one person has an expectation that their partner treats them in a certain way and then the partner doesn't treat them in that way and it causes an anger response.
00:15:42.080And then that anger response, because the other person doesn't expect the person to get angry.
00:15:45.520They think they're treating them within the cultural expectations of what they expect in terms of how they expected they were supposed to treat their partner in a relationship.
00:15:51.780And then that generates anger in them.
00:15:54.260And then this other person is like, why are you angry?
00:15:56.900You're the one who wasn't doing what you were supposed to do.
00:15:58.740And then that generates anger in them.
00:16:00.380And this is why things like relationship contracts, point of another podcast, are so absolutely critical.
00:16:06.600But you also have this in the real world.
00:16:09.440So an example of where I would talk about here is proper pronouns in terms of misgendering.
00:16:16.140Is one person, this happens when you have mismatched cultures where there is like a persistent mismatch of cultures.
00:16:22.560Where one cultural group thinks that they're supposed to be gendered one way.
00:16:26.380And another cultural group thinks that gendering should be done in another way.
00:16:30.600And so the one group genders the way they think that they're supposed to gender.
00:16:34.340And then this generates anger in the other group because they're not.
00:16:41.840And you can create this sort of like pointless, persistent anger, which is caused by cultural expectations.
00:16:51.440Now another instance in which anger gets really bad is when it's reinforced as the correct emotion was in people.
00:17:00.460So another type of you who's angry is when they culturally feel validated in that anger.
00:17:06.040So one of the things that I've experienced before, and I don't know if other people have, is somebody else comes to you and they're like, oh, you should be really angry about that.
00:17:15.000And you weren't really angry before, and then you start to get angry because they've created this narrative that the anger is justified.
00:17:23.080And that's why one of the worst things a partner can do is if you come home and you tell them about someone at work who is pissing you off, is tell you, oh, you're justified in those emotions.
00:17:32.360Because then those emotions build and they get worse.
00:17:34.640You're not making it better by doing that.
00:17:36.640Instead of talking through why do you think they're doing this, is their intention to slight you, is it a cultural mismatch, mismatch an expectation.
00:17:45.700I mean, of course, the same as misgendering, same as office.
00:17:48.740If a person could be doing it as an intention to slight you, they could be doing it to make you angry because for some reason you're part of a different cultural tribe than them.
00:17:56.420And they think your cultural tribe's enemies, so they're going to like just do whatever they can to hurt you.
00:18:00.340But in other instances, it could just be that they're a different cultural group than you.
00:18:03.720Yeah, actually, let's let's dig into this both like the the ways you can feed emotions and when that's toxic and when that's good, because in our family, for example, we're very strict about not condoning feeding negative emotions.
00:18:25.220And so you would think that sort of like in general, as a family, we're like super emotionally oppressive and just like shut it down, don't feel it, etc.
00:18:33.800But we actually invest a ton in feeding positive emotions like you, Malcolm, are constantly leaning into playfulness, joy, gratitude.
00:19:26.580Yeah. Whereas it was found instead in one study that when people were encouraged to let their anger out on something like a punching bag that actually increased their anger versus that they just did something else like a control activity.
00:19:39.220So this this basically is to imply that if you lean into an emotion, if you indulge it, if you if you talk with people who are like, yeah, you should be mad.
00:22:17.340So shame happens when you, yourself, don't live up to the self-image you have of yourself.
00:22:26.120So we all have these images of the type of people we want to be, the type of people we want other people to see us as.
00:22:32.840And we feel this shame emotion when we don't live up to that self-image.
00:22:38.980And this can be a persistent problem when a culture creates an expectation of ourselves, which is just completely unreasonable, which some cultures do.
00:22:50.520They just create these completely unrealistic expectations of us.
00:22:55.700And then they use those to beholden us to the culture because we're never living up to who we want it to be.
00:23:01.560Now, I think that in a way that can be useful.
00:23:03.200Well, Simone and I, we hold very high cultural expectations of ourselves, and I do, to some extent, always have some base level of shame because I'm never being the person I know I have the potential to be, which is who I expect myself to be.
00:23:16.880However, I think there's a big difference between this sort of like 10% shame all the time and like 80% shame all the time.
00:23:23.740And so I think that that's a good shame.
00:23:26.300And shame can be very damaging, right?
00:23:28.000Like it's discovered with a masturbation, for example, that when you are ashamed of it, when you think that it's a bad or evil thing, then you're really going to experience a lot of the negative effects of it.
00:23:43.340So one of my favorite studies is if you look at like Pornhub by in sort of like Utah, by the percentage of conservative Mormons in that area, it like goes up the more that I think it was.
00:23:53.200Or it might have been Catholics in it.
00:25:06.000And thank you for coming up with these fun theories.
00:25:08.860Like these have come up over the span of maybe like five years and they've gotten more unique and interesting over time.
00:25:15.740And thank you for coming up with these fun things and inspiring all these amazing conversations.
00:25:20.300I love talking with you and I feel like they're only going to get better with each new year.
00:25:23.880So thank you for talking with you too, Simone.
00:25:25.940You are just the most amazing partner that you go through this stuff with me and you help keep me honest with myself and my expectations for myself.
00:25:34.520And you ensure that those expectations are always high.